Where is Unisys going?
SA
there long term government contracts? They still selling "old-school"
servers? Look at the so-called ES7000. What a joke that is. Now they are
trying to team with Microsoft and start a campaign against UNIX and SUN? How
desperate is this company? How come they are still surviving in this day and
age. They should be bankrupt. Unless of course they have good "book
doctorers" like Anderson Consulting.
Please give me your insight on the "Unisys" strategy with Microsoft and
their strategy in general. Why is Unisys still in business?
Richard Steiner
>Is Unisys going down the tubes? Why are they still hanging in there?
For one, Unisys still has a number of large-scale mainframe customers
who are actively using Unisys hardware derived from either the Sperry/
UNIVAC 1100/2200-series family or the Burroughs A-series family.
Those customers (among them a fairly large number of major airlines,
various banks, and also various government agencies) are still a source
of some revenue, even though most of them are extremely old accounts,
and even though some of them (like the airlines) have gone through some
relatively hard times recently.
* * *
Speaking of airlines and hard times... (Nice transition, huh? <bg>)
If anyone knows about any interesting programming jobs in the Twin Cities
area for an applications programmer/analyst such as myself, I'm currently
interested in learning more about them.
My 13 years of 2200 development/support experience (along with the various
other tidbits of arcane lore that I've managed to accumulate over my still
short career) were not enough to protect me from the last wave of layoffs
at NWA, so it seems that I'm now in the process of seeking a new place of
employment.
I need to find a new place to hang my hat so I can go back to twiddling
bits again. Any suggestions, pointers, words of wisdom, and offers of
employment are quite welcome. :-) My e-mail box is always open.
In case some interest actually materializes as a result of this posting,
the most current version of my resume may be found in various formats
(Word 95, HTML, and ASCII) at the URL found in my signature below.
I'm currently open to almost anything in the Twin Cities area as long as
it helps pay the bills and sounds at least slightly interesting. :-)
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
Behind all magic there lies a little assembly.
James Johnson
>Here in comp.sys.unisys, "SA" <S...@SA.com> spake unto us, saying:
>
>>Is Unisys going down the tubes? Why are they still hanging in there?
>
>For one, Unisys still has a number of large-scale mainframe customers
>who are actively using Unisys hardware derived from either the Sperry/
>UNIVAC 1100/2200-series family or the Burroughs A-series family.
>
>Those customers (among them a fairly large number of major airlines,
>various banks, and also various government agencies) are still a source
>of some revenue, even though most of them are extremely old accounts,
>and even though some of them (like the airlines) have gone through some
>relatively hard times recently.
But many of those are retiring those mainframes. I am currently involved in a
project which is rehosting old system for DOD from OS1100/ACOB/DMS1100 to Sun
Solaris/NetExpress/Oracle. It is one of many ongoing rehosting/replacing
projects for the agency's mainframes. The word is the licensing costs are
prohibitive for the amount of processing done is one of the major reasons for
changing.
JJ
Richard Steiner
James Johnson <jame...@spam-not.telocity.com> spake unto us, saying:
>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 04:32:14 -0600,
>rste...@visi.com (Richard Steiner) wrote:
>
>>For one, Unisys still has a number of large-scale mainframe customers
>>who are actively using Unisys hardware derived from either the Sperry/
>>UNIVAC 1100/2200-series family or the Burroughs A-series family.
>
>But many of those are retiring those mainframes.
Perhaps true, but it's still a huge revenue stream.
I know my former employer (Northwest Airlines) has more 2200 stuff now
then they've ever had, some of it in extremely critical areas, but as
far as I'm aware there are no serious plans to reduce that usage.
They do pay lip service to reducing Unisys system usage at times, and a
little part of one of the main applications has been spun off, but that
hasn't exactly been a shining example of success (it comes to the table
with its very own set of serious advantages and shortcomings).
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
Steve J. Martin
<snip>
> But many of those are retiring those mainframes. I am currently involved in a
> project which is rehosting old system for DOD from OS1100/ACOB/DMS1100 to Sun
> Solaris/NetExpress/Oracle. It is one of many ongoing rehosting/replacing
> projects for the agency's mainframes. The word is the licensing costs are
> prohibitive for the amount of processing done is one of the major reasons for
> changing.
Where I work we have an IX4800 and, yes, licensing costs are high
enough that I don't see how we can continue indefinitely. As the
number licensees falls, those remaining must pay more to amortize the
hardware and software development costs. This can cause more
defections, further driving up cost per license--a death spiral.
Most 1100/2200 customers I know give Unisys quite a bit of
business that they would not consider to be mainframe business.
Unisys is in a good position to pick up other business from IX and NX
customers because of foot-in-the-door, one-stop-shopping, etc. I
suspect that considerable Unisys non-mainframe business comes from
mainframe customers and that losing the latter risks also losing the
former.
Unisys often notes how much of their revenue derives from
non-mainframe business. I wonder whether they track how much
non-mainframe revenue derives from customers who also supply mainframe
revenue?
Steve J. Martin
Speaking for myself only on 2002-04-04
Jay
Take a finite number of customers, and even a slow migration off, it
seems like you are in trouble without new customers.
Erwin Richard
news:d663f469.02040...@posting.google.com...
get from them?
We were one of the first adaptors of their Unix Line in Switzerland
(5000/90) and other
boxes later - now they dropped their Unix business. Everybody I know
switched to SUN
and HP-UX. Most Sites large enough to have an IX/NX installation probably
have systems
from the competitors (IBM, SUN, HP/Compaq) and Unisys always has that
"mainframe"
tag on them - and a lot of frustrated sysadmins from their unfortunate Unix
past.
Their largest installation in Switzerland (Union Bank of Switzerland UBS) is
migrating away
from Clearpath IX to IBM Mainframes(!)...
Colin Zealley
I'm sorry to hear of your problems. Can't help you much from over here
in the UK, but best of luck with your search for gainful employment!
Colin
"Richard Steiner" <rste...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:uQZp8oHp...@visi.com...
Colin Zealley
"Jay" <j...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3cad23a2...@news.starpower.net...
> Has anyone heard of a NEW mainframe customer for Unisys platform?
Yes, loads of telecoms customers. They are all taking Unisys ClearPath NX
platforms to run CAP (NAP as was). If the "Vidoe on Demand thing takes off
as we'd hope, we may start picking up new IX users as well.
And of course, the ES7000 *is* a mainframe as well - even though it's
usually seen running Windows (and occasionally Unix), the same architecture
is now running the ClearPath lines.
> Take a finite number of customers, and even a slow migration off, it
> seems like you are in trouble without new customers.
>
Clearly, if hardware were our major revenue stream, that would be true. But
70% or so of our revenue is from services, IIRC.
Colin
Bob Edwards
"Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:a8k2ab$2emj$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
>
> "<<snip>>
And of course, the ES7000 *is* a mainframe as well - even though it's
> usually seen running Windows (and occasionally Unix), the same
architecture
> is now running the ClearPath lines.
This is an important point -- Unisys now has only one hardware platform at
each level (entry, midrange, large system), and they are all variations on
the ES7000 CMP technology. Each one of them runs Windows, Unix, and both
proprietary operating systems.
Regards,
Bob
Colin Zealley
end, just as stock market shorts try to persuade people to sell shares
before the earnings statements come out?
No possible connection, of course ...
Colin
"SA" <S...@SA.com> wrote in message
news:trgp8.7714$SG2.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Juha Veijalainen
> Isn't it odd how this sort of negative posting always turns up at quarter
> end, just as stock market shorts try to persuade people to sell shares
> before the earnings statements come out?
>
> No possible connection, of course ...
No connection of course.
As far as I know latest "negative" postings started after the "We Have The
Way Out" anti Unix campaign backfired, partly because of the web hosting
company for the Web site used Unix at http://www.wehavethewayout.com/
In my opinion "anti" whatever marketing campaigns are not good. On the
other hand - regarding what Unisys does or does not - I do not really care
anymore, except that I'd like to get as much euros for my remaining Unisys
shares are possible.
--
Juha Veijalainen, Helsinki, Finland
http://www.iki.fi/juhave/ (PGP key available)
(Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect)
Michael Williams
one cent.
Jay
<colin....@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>"Jay" <j...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:3cad23a2...@news.starpower.net...
>> Has anyone heard of a NEW mainframe customer for Unisys platform?
>
>Yes, loads of telecoms customers. They are all taking Unisys ClearPath NX
>platforms to run CAP (NAP as was). If the "Vidoe on Demand thing takes off
>as we'd hope, we may start picking up new IX users as well.
Any public names? What were they running before NXs?
>
>And of course, the ES7000 *is* a mainframe as well - even though it's
>usually seen running Windows (and occasionally Unix), the same architecture
>is now running the ClearPath lines.
>
Are people buying these to run a mainframe OS? Again, are they new
customers or replacing clearpath boxes?
PeteK
> Are people buying these to run a mainframe OS? Again, are they new
> customers or replacing clearpath boxes?
its CAP (alias NAP) platform. Since then, many have increased the number of
installed platforms. To be fair, the CAP client base didn't really give two
hoots what OS the box ran - so long as it ran one properly - but the
complete package was important.
Pete Kane
Lueko Willms
schrieb kanep_Remo...@waitrose.com (PeteK)
auf /COMP/SYS/UNISYS
in a8uv35$f08$1...@paris.btinternet.com
ueber Re: Where is Unisys going? (And where am I going?)
kR> Both. Over the last 5 years or so Unisys won many new name accounts
kR> with its CAP (alias NAP) platform.
What is CAP or NAP?
Lüko Willms http://www.mlwerke.de
/--------- L.WI...@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --
"Es sind nicht die Generäle und Könige, die die Geschichte machen,
sondern die breiten Massen des Volkes" - Nelson Mandela
PeteK
"Lueko Willms" <l.wi...@jpberlin.de> wrote in message
news:8MZPI...@jpberlin-l.willms.jpberlin.de...
> What is CAP or NAP?
These are telephony platforms, which support VoiceMail etc. They are based
upon the ClearPath (mainframe) hardware platform, plus some specialist hw
that talks to networks.
Pete K
Dan Nissen
Revolutionary Platforms
Unisys e-@ction Communications Application Platforms are designed to deliver
the highest standard of hardware performance, to ensure unsurpassed
scalability and availability, and to enable rapid application creation.
Service providers can quickly and cost-effectively launch new services on a
platform that is designed to grow with their business.
"Lueko Willms" <l.wi...@jpberlin.de> wrote in message
news:8MZPI...@jpberlin-l.willms.jpberlin.de...
Colin Zealley
But that never seems to stop these people - they spam the Unisys stock BBs
as well, and can't possibly be having any significant effect given the
proportion of institutional holding of our stock.
Colin
"Michael Williams" <symco...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a8scii$k5t$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Greig Blanchett
>news:8MZPI...@jpberlin-l.willms.jpberlin.de...
>>
>> What is CAP or NAP?
>>
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:48:22 -0500, "Dan Nissen"
<dan.nosp...@unisys.com> wrote:
>See http://www.unisys.es/comm/vas/
>
>Revolutionary Platforms
>Unisys e-@ction Communications Application Platforms are designed to deliver
>the highest standard of hardware performance, to ensure unsurpassed
>scalability and availability, and to enable rapid application creation.
>Service providers can quickly and cost-effectively launch new services on a
>platform that is designed to grow with their business.
>
Don't you hate marketing speak? So what does it DO?
Err... rhetorical question ... I know, but it's the principle of the
thing.
Dan Nissen
is a marketing concept, the basis for our Value Added Solutions for the
communications arena. If you follow down the links from the page I cited,
you get to http://www.unisys.es/comm/vas/VAS_Applications.asp which lists
some of the applications:
Multimedia Messaging Services
Voice Portal
Calling Services
Interactive Voice Response
Personal Number
Short Message Service
Universal Messaging
Voice Activated Dialing
Voice and FAX Messaging
In another sense, CAP is a MCP-based system that provides whatever solutions
you've bought from the Unisys Communications Group. It is another "nature
of the beast" fact that Unisys Global Industries delivers repeatable
tailored solutions. Many of these systems are quite tailored, while others
contain few enhancements beyond the applications sold to many clients.
I use it everyday as the voicemail system in our plant.
"Greig Blanchett" <gre...@nzrfu.com> wrote in message
news:C889E0F9B1ABDAE7.F1CE610C...@lp.airnews.net...
PeteK
> > Don't you hate marketing speak? So what does it DO?
> >
> >
> > Err... rhetorical question ... I know, but it's the principle of the
> > thing.
> >
>
Communications Application Platform provides a great deal of functionailty,
but the majority of installations use it primarily for Voice Mail, SMS and
associated facilities. The CAP software provides mechansims for
call-handling, which can be invoked by applications. Apps can do all sorts
of things, such as play a prompt, wait for the user to press a digit etc
etc. Its really only limited by your imagination - a pretty severe
limitation in my case. I haven't really done it justice; they architects
did a great job.
Pete K
Tim
about. The NDP500s, 1150s, the new NDP600s.
Check processing equipment, capable of handling check processing,
remittance, at high speeds, with numerous options for imaging, microfilming,
encoding and sorting checks and remittance forms. Target markets being
banks, and firms that handle largescale remittance. These not only generate
the revenue from selling them, but as with the servers there's maintenance
and supplies as well.
Did you know that HALF of the checks cashed (Colin, is it the country or the
world?) are processed using Unisys equipment?
Unisys is also primary providers of hardware support for Dell, Gateway,
Premio and others. As a mainframe company we can provide service nationwide
and in a uniform fashion with the quality the users and manufacturers
desire.
The company is making good moves into desktop support which provides
software support along the same lines.
This is all revenue that keeps coming in (so long as the customers/OEMs are
happy).
The company is also a player in IS and consulting.
"SA" <S...@SA.com> wrote in message
news:trgp8.7714$SG2.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Colin Zealley
I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
In the UK, it's around 70% of all cheques that are processed not only on
Unisys equipment, but by Unisys staff using them, via outsourcing
agreements.
Colin
(both figures rely on my memory - can't be bothered to trawl through the
website looking for the exact figures)
"Tim" <som...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:udmtbdi...@corp.supernews.com...
> Beyond the servers there are the machines most of you don't even think
> about. The NDP500s, 1150s, the new NDP600s.
[snip]
>
> Did you know that HALF of the checks cashed (Colin, is it the country or
the
> world?) are processed using Unisys equipment?
>
[snip]
Tim Jinx
Colin Zealley wrote:
> Tim,
> I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
> all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
>
> In the UK, it's around 70% of all cheques that are processed not only on
> Unisys equipment, but by Unisys staff using them, via outsourcing
> agreements.
>
> Colin
Hi Colin
I remember you as one of the Gurus we used to pester when life got too
hard in the field. I left Unisys in 93, it's good to see your name again!
These cheques, is that still running on V Series with the hardware interupt?
Tim (another Tim, not som...@nowhere.com)
Michael Williams
PC/Network.
"Tim Jinx" <gwrcast...@yahooSPAMBOT.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3CDFB478...@yahooSPAMBOT.co.uk...
Richard Steiner
"Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
> I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
>all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
In an infinite universe the highly unlikely is inevitable.
Michael Williams
I know in the states, that the Unisys NDP1150 - NDP2000 is being widely
accepted. It has taken quite a few IBM 3890 and 3892 sites and converted
them to Unisys using products like Sort Logic.
http://www.unisysfinancial.com/about/index.asp
AFS (Advanced Financial Solutions) should also get a large degree of the
credit. They have a great imaging solution and drive ALOT of Unisys high
speed (1000dpm or higher) sorter sales here in the states.
They have also converted alot of the IBM/Banctec customers to the Unisys
platform.
Just like the PC, Server, and Mainframe marketplace - Software drives the
90% of the sales.
"Richard Steiner" <rste...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:pHB48oHp...@visi.com...
Malcolm Ball
<rste...@visi.com> writes
>Here in comp.sys.unisys,
>"Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>
>> I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
>>all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
>
>Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
>
That's what a lot of insiders ask.
--
Malcolm Ball
Richard Steiner
Malcolm Ball <malco...@clara.co.uk> spake unto us, saying:
>Richard Steiner <rste...@visi.com> writes
>
>>Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
>
>That's what a lot of insiders ask.
I've wondered it almost constantly (and asked it in a number of forums
and other contexts) since I first started to work for Unisys in 1988.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
Okay, I pulled the pin. Now what? Where are you going?
Richard Steiner
"Michael Williams" <symco...@mindspring.com> spake unto us, saying:
>"Richard Steiner" <rste...@visi.com> wrote in message
>> "Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>>
>> > I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60%
>> > of all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
>>
>> Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
>
>They do. It's just that they don't do it loud enough for the public
>to hear.
I worked for NWA (a major 2200 customer and user of UNIVAC hardware
since at least the early 1960's), and even OUR senior management didn't
seem to have a real clue about the current and historic strength of
presence that Unisys has had in the airline industry.
That doesn't seem to say much for Unisys' ability to advertise itself
to its existing customers, either.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
All I want is a warm bed, a kind word and unlimited power...
Juha Veijalainen
> I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
> all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
OK, so that means fast image/character processing equipment. How could that
be applied for something else than cheques? What is the number of cheques
used in the world today?
IMHO, cheques are history. For example, in Finland, personal cheques have
been obsolete since 1992 (I think). No business will accept them and banks
will charge you about 100 euro to process a single personal cheque. Bank
issued cheques are sometimes used as gifts or for business transactions
(very large amounts). Money transactions are electronic; direct debit,
credit card, account to account transfers etc.
Modern financial environment needs good transaction processing power,
reliability, fast networking and excellent security.
Lee Bertagnolli
> Colin Zealley wrote:
>> I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60% of
>> all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
> OK, so that means fast image/character processing equipment. How could that
> be applied for something else than cheques? What is the number of cheques
> used in the world today?
> IMHO, cheques are history. For example, in Finland, personal cheques have
> been obsolete since 1992 (I think). No business will accept them and banks
> will charge you about 100 euro to process a single personal cheque. Bank
> issued cheques are sometimes used as gifts or for business transactions
> (very large amounts). Money transactions are electronic; direct debit,
> credit card, account to account transfers etc.
> Modern financial environment needs good transaction processing power,
> reliability, fast networking and excellent security.
The United States says "Hi!" I was in a DPMA meeting in the late '70's
where an IBM rep proudly announced that checks were going the way of
the dinosaur. Check usage has steadily increased since then, at least
in the US. People like their cancelled checks, I suppose. All the better
for Burroughs/Unisys.
--Lee
Colin Zealley
but the reason we are processing such a lot of them ourselves is that our
outsourcing group has made a very successful growth business out of helping
our customers exit from a non-growth area of their own businesses. Everyone
benefits.
It's just that most of the world isn't as advanced as Finland in this
respect, Juha!
Colin
"Lee Bertagnolli" <l...@tyrol.bertagnolli.net> wrote in message
news:abr1sd$hqn$1...@tyrol.bertagnolli.net...
Michael Williams
Checks have definitely slowed and in alot of countries declined. But there
are millions written every day and technology is making it easier to record
these transactions. (imaging)
>IMHO, cheques are history. For example, in Finland, personal cheques have
>been obsolete since 1992 (I think). No business will accept them and banks
>will charge you about 100 euro to process a single personal cheque. Bank
>issued cheques are sometimes used as gifts or for business transactions
>(very large amounts). Money transactions are electronic; direct debit,
>credit card, account to account transfers etc.
Please don't take this wrong, but Finland is close to the size of Montana,
and has 5+ million people (which is smaller than New York City). It would
definitely be easier to convert Montana or NYC, as opposed to the entire
country.
Here is an excerpt from Alan Greenspan, Federal Reserve Chairman, a couple
years ago at the National Automated Clearinghouse Association Annual
Meeting....
....As we look forward, the Federal Reserve recognizes that whatever
innovations develop, the check will likely be with us for many years.
Americans still write about sixty eight billion checks a year, and the
numbers are expected to grow.....
If you want to read the rest of his article. Follow link:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2000/20000410.htm
NoBodyInParticular
department store, and so on the only acceptable proof of payment was a copy
of the cancelled check. I'll keep my checkbook, thanks.
Yves Gaffarel
"NoBodyInParticular" <go...@goofball.net> wrote in message
news:3CE15FDD...@goofball.net...
> Every time I have gotten a duplicate bill from a doctor, hospital,
> department store, and so on the only acceptable proof of payment was a
copy
> of the cancelled check. I'll keep my checkbook, thanks.
>
Duplicate bills ? I never got that. Perhaps because we are using efficient
method for domestic payments in Belgium ... (transfer money between
accounts, standardised payment references that allow automatic
reconciliation between bill and payment, ...)
The cost of check payments must be quite high, is it not ?
Michael Williams
stay in the States for along time.
"Yves Gaffarel" <yves.g...@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:abtadd$2jb1$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
Yves Gaffarel
disappear...
I am often wrong when I assume something.
"Michael Williams" <symco...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:abtqjr$4ok$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Steve Turetzky
Yves,
IMHO, inefficiency is a good but (especially for us Yanks) insufficient
reason for a system to disappear.
FWIW, while recognizing it to be inefficient, I appreciate one unique
feature of using checks -- float! :)
Regards,
Steve (not speaking officially for Unisys)
Don Payette
check and run it through a reader, then give the check back
to me. Payment done. I don't know if it gets rid of float,
but it appears to work like a debit card.
"Steve Turetzky" <steven....@unisys.com> wrote:
-----------
Don Payette
Unisys Corporation
I speak only for myself; not my employer
Please reply in the newsgroup. Don't try
sending e-mail.
Michael Williams
"Don Payette" <Nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:2od5eu00q7pu8k6sq...@4ax.com...
Yves Gaffarel
?
"Steve Turetzky" <steven....@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:abu20j$79n$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
Ken Wheatley
> Here in comp.sys.unisys,
> "Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>
> > I'm not sure of the exact details, but it's something like over 60%
of
> >all the world's cheques are processed on Unisys equipment.
>
> Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
It does. I've seen adverts in airports saying just what is in the paragraph
before last.
Richard Steiner
Ken Wheatley <kenneth....@gb.unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
> "Richard Steiner" <rste...@visi.com> wrote in message
>
>> Why doesn't Unisys advertise some of this stuff? Or even itself?
>
> It does. I've seen adverts in airports saying just what is in the
> paragraph before last.
Good stuff, if true.
I find it somewhat frustrating to find that so few people have a clue
what Unisys is, even many of those who've been in the industry (both
airline and IT) for 15-20 years.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> rste...@visi.com >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + Linux + BeOS + FreeBSD + Solaris + WinNT4 + Win95 + DOS
+ PC/GEOS + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then
Steve J. Martin
> IMHO, cheques are history. For example, in Finland, personal cheques have
> been obsolete since 1992 (I think). No business will accept them and banks
> will charge you about 100 euro to process a single personal cheque. Bank
> issued cheques are sometimes used as gifts or for business transactions
> (very large amounts). Money transactions are electronic; direct debit,
> credit card, account to account transfers etc.
>
> Modern financial environment needs good transaction processing power,
> reliability, fast networking and excellent security.
The USA must surely lead the world in cheque (or, as they say,
"check") use. I'm Canadian but have lived in the US twice (as
recently as 1998) and noticed higher use of cheques there, especially
in grocery stores. (I suspect Canada is closer to the US than Finland
in cheque use.)
A recent US Federal Reserve press release gives some numbers.
See:
http://www.federalreserve.gov//boarddocs/press/general/2001/20011114/default.htm
Cheers,
Steve J. Martin
Lee Bertagnolli
> "float" : is it related to cash flow ? the fact that you are debited later
> ?
Let's say your employer gives you your pay in the form of a check.
You go to your bank to deposit said check. The bank may give you
instant funds availability of, say, 40 percent of the face value
of the check. They will give availability for the rest of the funds
after, say, two days. The bank then gets to use 60 percent of your
money for that two days. That 60 percent of your funds is the "float."
If I run a large bank, and I have thousands of customers depositing tens
of thousands of checks every day, you can see how we are now talking about
HUGE sums of money. As a bank operations officer, I can play all sorts of
games with that money, mainly in a quest to earn more money. For instance,
I may in turn take your employer's check to a bank clearing house, where
I might get 24 hour funds availability, or even instant availability, of the
money represented by that check. I still have at least 24 hours before I
have to make all of your money available to you.
Another game with checks: I write a check today, knowing that 1) the
receiver of the check will not deposit the check for a few days, and
2) I presently do not have the necessary funds in my account to cover
the amount of the check. So, it gets to be a race between me and the
check I wrote, to deposit said funds in the account, before the check
is presented. This is called "kiting a check." Banks do not like this.
--Lee
Richard Steiner
s...@sjmsoft.com (Steve J. Martin) spake unto us, saying:
>The USA must surely lead the world in cheque (or, as they say,
>"check") use.
I use them to pay bills, but for nothing else. It gives me a record of
payments, and allows me to defer them if necessary if things are tight.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS
+ Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
I'm still looking for work -- see web site for resume.
Tom
Here in Minnesota, USA one may use a check at almost any kind of shop or
restaurant you can imagine, although some inner city establishments will
decline them.
I moved here from the east coast of the USA 25 years ago and was flabergasted
to see people using checks at McDonalds!
They are still using them at McDonald's today!
We must be stuck in a timewarp.
Tom
Arthur Shapiro
substantially lower than just a few years ago.
Most of my recurring bills are auto-debited from the checking account.
Using the debit card at the grocery store, as well as at least half the
retailers I frequent, is certainly easier than writing a check. Even the
little one-hour photo place takes debit cards now. Services like Paypal are
handling some of the private transactions that would normally dictate a check
or money order. For a lot of bills such as a doctor's bill, after the
insurance has paid, it seems easier to call 'em up and have it thrown on a
credit card.
I can't be the only person for whom a box of checks lasts a *lot* longer than
it used to.
Art
Colin Zealley
Unfortunately, this only goes to serve as evidence of just how outdated the
US retail finance industry is, compared to the rest of the world!
Anywhere else, your bank statement is acceptable proof. Mostly because so
many payments are made electronically, either over the Web or via Direct
Debit or standing orders. My cheque books usually last me about 2-3 years
for a book of 30 cheques, and I make a lot of transactions. Very few UK
banks physically return cancelled cheques to the writer - in fact, I'd be
surprised if there are any that still do so as a matter of course.
Maybe you guys should pester your banks and the banking system to get up to
date with the rest of the world!
Colin
"NoBodyInParticular" <go...@goofball.net> wrote in message
news:3CE15FDD...@goofball.net...
Colin Zealley
I have a suspicion, but that term isn't used anywhere in that context in the
UK, as far as I know.
Colin
"Steve Turetzky" <steven....@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:abu20j$79n$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
Steve Turetzky
news:ac37u8$1ton$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
Colin,
Speaking for myself, no offence (offense to my fellow Yanks) taken! :)
Note, however, that the problem cited by "NoBodyInParticular" is not the
US retail finance industry but rather "doctor[s], hospital[s], [and]
department store[s]." As in the UK, the trend is for our retail financial
institutions to not send cancelled cheques (checks) to the customer -- we
have to pay an extra fee for the privilege if we want one. My guess is that
the residents of the rest of the world are more trusted by their
entrepreneurs (for good reason) that are us Yanks by ours. I believe that
customer fraud is a substantial cost of doing business here in the States.
And you thought YOU might be taken for being anti-US! :)
Steve Turetzky (**not** necessarily representing the views of my employer)
Steve Turetzky
Colin,
My intent was to convey the difference in time between the crediting of
my debt by the person or institution to whom I wrote the check and the
debiting of my checking account by my financial institution.
Steve
Richard Steiner
"Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>Maybe you guys should pester your banks and the banking system to get up
>to date with the rest of the world!
Electronic payments and such are an option for most of us here, but some
of us are explicitly choosing not to use them, preferring checks instead
for some purposes. I like being in control of the payments I make.
How is having an option being "out of date"...?
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-)
Applications programmer (13 yrs) actively seeking employment.
See web site in my signature for current resume.
Eugene Miya
Richard Steiner <rste...@visi.com> wrote:
>Here in comp.sys.unisys,
>"Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>>Maybe you guys should pester your banks and the banking system to get up
>>to date with the rest of the world!
>
>Electronic payments and such are an option for most of us here, but some
>of us are explicitly choosing not to use them, preferring checks instead
>for some purposes. I like being in control of the payments I make.
Personally, I like this too, but....
>How is having an option being "out of date"...?
Costs more.
That's why bank tellers are largely a thing of the past due to the
influence of ATMs.
Data General had an interesting if somewhat obscure commercial showing
Middle Aged (dark ages) warriors defending a castle. When at the end of
the commercial, out of battlefield smoke there appears a catapult.
I gotta find that commercial for our Museum.
Wonder which will change first in the US: metric system or banking?
Richard Steiner
eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) spake unto us, saying:
>In article <z5T58oHp...@visi.com>,
>Richard Steiner <rste...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>>How is having an option being "out of date"...?
>
>Costs more.
Costs who more? Must be either the banks or the companies processing
the checks, since I don't pay anything for my account except for the
check blanks themselves (and the interest gained in the account more
than covers that).
>That's why bank tellers are largely a thing of the past due to the
>influence of ATMs.
Every bank in the Twin Cities that I know of has a drive-up window with
a real person during normal hours, as well as tellers in the lobby.
To my layman's eye, ATM's appear to be supplimenting the traditional
bank teller, not replacing them, at least here.
>Wonder which will change first in the US: metric system or banking?
The metric system is already in heavy use in some places, but not in
others. I suspect we'll be at least as resistent to some changes (like
going from miles to kilometers) as Great Britain has been. :-)
(If you weren't aware, England and Scotland still use miles and MPH on
their highways, not km/kph).
Joseph Bielawski
share price.
It's up and down all the time like a ........
It doesnt know, whether its coming or going, so to speak.
JB
"SA" <S...@SA.com> wrote in message
news:trgp8.7714$SG2.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> Is Unisys going down the tubes? Why are they still hanging in there? Is it
> there long term government contracts? They still selling "old-school"
> servers? Look at the so-called ES7000. What a joke that is. Now they are
> trying to team with Microsoft and start a campaign against UNIX and SUN?
How
> desperate is this company? How come they are still surviving in this day
and
> age. They should be bankrupt. Unless of course they have good "book
> doctorers" like Anderson Consulting.
>
> Please give me your insight on the "Unisys" strategy with Microsoft and
> their strategy in general. Why is Unisys still in business?
>
>
Edward Reid
> Costs more.
> That's why bank tellers are largely a thing of the past due to the
> influence of ATMs.
Hi, Eugene. What induced you to pop in here?
As others have pointed out, although the banks are trying hard to push
us to ATMs instead of tellers -- in some cases charging service fees
for using tellers -- the American public for some reason largely still
wants some human contact in its daily business. I sometimes use an ATM
card because it enables me to get cash with my groceries -- cash that
comes with a smile rather than a beep.
The banks are pushing hard to get us to use ATMs instead of tellers,
but not to get us to use electronic debits instead of checks. To me
this speaks loudly and clearly that the banks don't think that checks
are costing them any more than the alternative. In fact, they continue
to discourage us from using debit cards by the additional charges.
On Fri, 17 May 2002 17:01:59 -0400, Richard Steiner wrote
> (If you weren't aware, England and Scotland still use miles and MPH on
> their highways, not km/kph).
If anyone wants to get on a high horse about the metric system, I'll
ask what units of speed are used on their highways. km/hr is not a
metric (SI) unit -- hours are not a metric unit, and in any case you
can't just combine two metric units and necessarily get a metric unit.
A classic example is units of blood glucose: the US and a few other
countries use mg/dl, which certainly looks metric but isn't -- the SI
unit is mmol/L.
When your speed limits are posted in m/s, then we'll talk about metri
... um, metricali ... oh hell, going metric.
Edward Reid (ah, the fun of stirring up trouble)
Mike
mentioned in this thread are legal protection, and the Federal Reserve Board
regulation of the money supply.
Federal law provides protections for checks and credit cards. These Federal
protections are NOT extended to debit cards and electronic fund transfers.
Many, but not all, banks extend these protections to their accounts.
The money supply includes cash, travelers checks and demand accounts
(checking accounts) in the most liquid measure of money supply (M1).
For privacy, I prefer dealing in cash.
Mike
"Edward Reid" <edw...@paleo.org> wrote in message
news:01HW.B90B415C0...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
Richard Steiner
>For privacy, I prefer dealing in cash.
Yup. I typically use cash for most non-scheduled transactions (and I
usually use ATMs to obtain said cash). I dislike having to sign my
name when I'm in a busy store environment.
Gene Nygaard
You'd better get your ducks in a row if you are going to make this
kind of argument.
The SI unit for blood glucose cannot be mmol/L because liters are NOT
SI units.
Liters are acceptable for use with SI, but they are not SI. (From
1961 to 1964, they were not even acceptable for use with SI; in 1964
their definition was restored to exactly 1 dm^3 and since then they
are acceptable for use with SI.) The only SI units of volume are
cubic meters (with any of the SI prefixes).
Hours, like liters, are acceptable for use with SI. Thus km/h (note
proper symbol for hours in not hr) is acceptable for use with SI, just
as mmol/L is acceptable for use with SI.
Get and read the SI brochure from the BIPM at
http://www.bipm.fr/
and the NIST _Guide for the Use of the International System of Units
(SI) in HTML format at
http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sp811.html
(also available in .pdf format or order a printed copy at the NIST
Constants, Units, and Uncertianty page)
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/
Gene Nygaard
You'd better get your ducks in a row if you are going to make that
kind of argument.
The SI units of blood glucose cannot be mmol/L because liters are NOT
SI units.
Liters are acceptable for use with SI. (From 1960 to 1964 they were
not acceptable for use with SI, but in 1964 their definition was
restored to 1 dm^3 exactly, and since then they are acceptable.).
Hours are also acceptable for use with SI. Thus km/h (note the proper
symbol for hours is not hr but h) is acceptable for use with SI, just
as mmol/L is acceptable for use with SI.
Get and read the SI brochure from BIPM at
http://www.bipm.fr/
and the NIST _Guide for the Use of the International System of Units_
available in HTML at
http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sp811.html
(also in .pdf format or order a printed copy at the NIST Constants,
Units, and Uncertainty page)
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/
Gordon DeGrandis
Even with electronic payments you are still in control. I am living in
Belgium and I still control when and how much to pay for any of the
bills I receive. The real difference is the convenience, never waiting
in line at the bank, no looking for stamps and of course running out of
cheques. I am originally from Canada another cheque writing country and
since living here I would never like to go back to paying things by cheque!
Gordon DeGrandis
Richard Steiner wrote:
> Here in comp.sys.unisys,
> "Colin Zealley" <colin....@unisys.com> spake unto us, saying:
>
>
>>Maybe you guys should pester your banks and the banking system to get up
>>to date with the rest of the world!
>>
>
> Electronic payments and such are an option for most of us here, but some
> of us are explicitly choosing not to use them, preferring checks instead
> for some purposes. I like being in control of the payments I make.
>
> How is having an option being "out of date"...?
>
>
--
---------------------------------
Gordon DeGrandis - Brussels Belgium
Email address is SPAM protected please modify before sending
Richard Steiner
Gordon DeGrandis <gordon.degrand...@brutele.be>
spake unto us, saying:
>Rich,
>Even with electronic payments you are still in control.
Not as I understand them.
>I am living in Belgium and I still control when and how much to pay for
>any of the bills I receive.
What steps must you take in order to have a bill payment delayed three
days? Or to have a bill payment increased by $20?
With a check, such changes are intuitive and immediate.
>The real difference is the convenience, never waiting in line at the
>bank, no looking for stamps and of course running out of cheques.
I use ATMs for cash and stamp vending machines for postage stamps, and
I purchase my checks in such quantity that I don't run out for a couple
of years. There is no inconvenience.
Andrew McWhirter
> Gordon DeGrandis <gordon.degrand...@brutele.be>
>
> >I am living in Belgium and I still control when and how much to pay for
> >any of the bills I receive.
>
> What steps must you take in order to have a bill payment delayed three
> days? Or to have a bill payment increased by $20?
Speaking as someone who has only recently "seen the light" (in
Australia), to do either of these is utterly trivial with my current
bank. They offer a secure web interface, and I can make immediate
payments, schedule payments, delete/reschedule payments with a few mouse
clicks. And I can get payments into my account electronically (not just
salary, either.) I can also use a menu driven phone system to make
payments or transfer funds. Or order a new cheque book. :)
> With a check, such changes are intuitive and immediate.
Actually, once the cheque is mailed it's kind of hard to change the
amount or control when it will be presented.
> >The real difference is the convenience, never waiting in line at the
> >bank, no looking for stamps and of course running out of cheques.
>
> I use ATMs for cash and stamp vending machines for postage stamps, and
I hardly even need to use ATM's any more. Occasional cash for small
expenses. I only need to use cheques when the payee isn't set up for
electronic or credit card payment (less and less these days.)
Currently, a book of 25 cheques will probably last me 2 years.
> I purchase my checks in such quantity that I don't run out for a couple
> of years. There is no inconvenience.
You have to pay for cheques? Hmmm...
Cheers - Andrew
Michael Williams
with electronic transactions. They are charged fees by the networks.
Also, for customers in the states, it is alot of times cheaper to use
checks. Example - travel and use an ATM at a foreign bank. You pay $1.50 to
$2.00 to your bank for the use PLUS a fee to the person who owns the ATM. A
person (won't go into whether smart or dumb) uses an ATM at a different bank
than their own, withdraws $20.00 USD, they may pay $3.00 to $4.00 to do so.
That's a 15% to 20% fee for the convenience.
Lueko Willms
schrieb symco...@mindspring.com (Michael Williams)
bei /COMP/SYS/UNISYS
in acb05n$er0$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net
ueber Re: Checks and other payment forms (was: Where is Unisys going?)
MW> Talking about the cost of working with checks. It cost banks money to
MW> work with electronic transactions. They are charged fees by the
MW> networks.
Sure -- but do you think that the check processing is done without
doing the transaction over a network? Do you think the banks do interact
via mail? It would take up to weeks to process a check!
Check processing is much more complicated and therefore more costly
than a simple transfer instruction.
MW>
MW> Also, for customers in the states, it is alot of times cheaper to use
MW> checks. Example - travel and use an ATM at a foreign bank.
I know, I know. But I guess you rather use a credit card, don't you?
And the payment recipient does an online check of the credibility of the
card, isn't it?
How many merchants do accept checks for which they have no guarantee
that they actually do receive the money due?
Yours,
Lüko Willms http://www.mlwerke.de
/--------- L.WI...@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --
"Die Arbeit in weißer Haut kann sich nicht dort emanzipieren, wo sie
in schwarzer Haut gebrandmarkt wird." - Karl Marx 12.11.1866
Michael Williams
"Lueko Willms" <l.wi...@jpberlin.de> wrote in message
news:8PEbv...@jpberlin-l.willms.jpberlin.de...
> Am 20.05.02
> schrieb symco...@mindspring.com (Michael Williams)
> bei /COMP/SYS/UNISYS
> in acb05n$er0$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net
> ueber Re: Checks and other payment forms (was: Where is Unisys going?)
>
> MW> Talking about the cost of working with checks. It cost banks money to
> MW> work with electronic transactions. They are charged fees by the
> MW> networks.
>
> Sure -- but do you think that the check processing is done without
> doing the transaction over a network? Do you think the banks do interact
> via mail? It would take up to weeks to process a check!
>
> Check processing is much more complicated and therefore more costly
> than a simple transfer instruction.
Actually, banks courier the checks between themselves and the federal
reserve/large clearing banks. THAT is float. The time it takes for your
check to come back and clear your account.
> MW>
> MW> Also, for customers in the states, it is alot of times cheaper to use
> MW> checks. Example - travel and use an ATM at a foreign bank.
>
> I know, I know. But I guess you rather use a credit card, don't you?
> And the payment recipient does an online check of the credibility of the
> card, isn't it?
I don't use a credit card. I do use a debit card linked to my checking
account and checks as needed for bill payment, home owner dues, etc. where I
want a record of payment.
> How many merchants do accept checks for which they have no guarantee
> that they actually do receive the money due?
90% of merchants that I deal with take checks. Most large merchants (Wal
Mart, Home Depot, etc) use systems to check funds availability at the time
of purchase. These systems do not take the money out of the account, just
verify that it's there at the time of purchase.
Eugene Miya
Gene Nygaard <gnyg...@nccray.com> wrote:
>Edward Reid <edw...@paleo.org> wrote in message news:<01HW.B90B415C0...@news-east.usenetserver.com>...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 17:49:58 -0400, Eugene Miya wrote
>> > Costs more.
>> > That's why bank tellers are largely a thing of the past due to the
>> > influence of ATMs.
>>
>> Hi, Eugene. What induced you to pop in here?
Hi! Oh, just passing thru.....
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 17:01:59 -0400, Richard Steiner wrote
>> > (If you weren't aware, England and Scotland still use miles and MPH on
>> > their highways, not km/kph).
and other metric stuff.
The issue isn't specifically KM or not. I frequently purchased
multiple DLs of drink on the continent. But do try to keep this toward
Unisys systems.
Edward Reid
> How many merchants do accept checks for which they have no guarantee
> that they actually do receive the money due?
VIrtually all US merchants accept checks drawn on local banks. If you
want to write a check when you're traveling away from home, it's more
difficult. Indeed people in the US tend to use electronic options more
when traveling -- though credit cards are the first choice.
The same technologies that support electronic payments have also
improved the use of checks.
Note that I express no opinion on which is "better" ...
Edward Reid
James Johnson
>On Fri, 17 May 2002 17:49:58 -0400, Eugene Miya wrote
>> Costs more.
>> That's why bank tellers are largely a thing of the past due to the
>> influence of ATMs.
>
>Hi, Eugene. What induced you to pop in here?
>
>As others have pointed out, although the banks are trying hard to push
>us to ATMs instead of tellers -- in some cases charging service fees
>for using tellers -- the American public for some reason largely still
>wants some human contact in its daily business. I sometimes use an ATM
>card because it enables me to get cash with my groceries -- cash that
>comes with a smile rather than a beep.
>
1) If I write a check for my groceries there is no transaction fee.
2) If I use a debit card to pay for them with money from my checking
account the average american bank charges between $1 to $1.50 for that single
transaction.
3) If I use my debit card as a credit card (or use my credit card) the
retailer gets charged a fee 1.7% of the amount of the sale.
Retailers hate #3 and push #1 or #2, consumers hate #2 as it costs them a lot of
money. The fees charged by american banks is a major reason checks (example #1)
are still widely used.
JJ
James Johnson
Additionally the Federal Reserve has a governmentally regulated and funded
system for transferring checks between banks.
If the individual banks were paying for the shipping of checks instead of the
government, I think you would see debit card charges go way down as banks tried
to get people away from checks. As it stands now, using debit cards for many
payments costs me too darn much for me to make use of it.
JJ
On Thu, 16 May 2002 22:43:03 GMT, art.s...@unisys.com (Arthur Shapiro)
wrote:
Lueko Willms
schrieb jame...@spam-not.telocity.com (James Johnson)
auf /COMP/SYS/UNISYS
in 968jeukgnt2ql65qk...@4ax.com
ueber Re: Where is Unisys going?
JJ> Many (most?) banks charge hefty charges per transaction from points
JJ> of sale. Additionally the Federal Reserve has a governmentally
JJ> regulated and funded system for transferring checks between banks.
I had this suspicion that in the USA some governmental regulations
favor checks, although this is an antiquated and very costly way of
moving money between accounts.
Lüko Willms http://www.mlwerke.de
/--------- L.WI...@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --
"Kein Land kann seine Probleme in dieser globalisierten Welt allein
auf sich gestellt lösen. Entweder wir retten uns alle zusammen oder
wir gehen zusammen unter. Heute mehr denn je gilt das Wort von José
Martí: Das Vaterland ist die ganze Menschheit."
- Fidel Castro, Caracas (Veneuzuela), 3. Februar 1999
Eugene Miya
James Johnson <jame...@spam-not.telocity.com> wrote:
>1) If I write a check for my groceries there is no transaction fee.
Rule #1 with banks: there is no free lunch.
[numerous girl friends in banking taught me this.]
You pay monthly service fees or maintain a balance in C-and other
accounts such that the value of your funds to the bank exceed the cost
of processing your Cs.
As long as people think like #1, Unisys will stay in business.
>2) >single transaction.
>3) more fees
Maintaining the economic illusion doesn't help.
Randall Bart
l.wi...@jpberlin.de (Lueko Willms) uttered:
>"Kein Land kann seine Probleme in dieser globalisierten Welt allein
>auf sich gestellt lösen. Entweder wir retten uns alle zusammen oder
>wir gehen zusammen unter. Heute mehr denn je gilt das Wort von José
>Martí: Das Vaterland ist die ganze Menschheit."
> - Fidel Castro, Caracas (Veneuzuela), 3. Februar 1999
I strongly suspect that when Castro goes to Caracas he speaks Spanish.
--
RB |\ © Randall Bart
aa |/ ad...@RandallBart.spam.com Bart...@att.spam.net
nr |\ Please reply without spam I LOVE YOU 1-917-715-0831
dt ||\ http://RandallBart.com/ DOT-HS-808-065 MS^7=6/28/107
a |/ "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who
l |\ said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees
l |/ with your own reason and your own common sense."--Buddha
Colin Zealley
I quite agree with your "no free lunch" line, but in the case of the UK
banking system the lunch gets paid for less directly.
Current accounts (the equivalent of a US checking account) pay interest
when you're in the black, do not have fees, and do not charge you a
transaction fee for processing your cheques or other payments. And the banks
don't insist on you also having any other account to balance this out. The
nearest thing you get to paying for this is that the interest you earn on a
current account is fairly low, much lower than on (say) a savings account -
the bank makes its profit from that differential, I guess.
The only place that charges appear in the system is for businesses, who
do pay transaction fees (some banks give free banking to very small
businesses, but most do it only for private customers); and for withdrawing
cash from credit cards you pay the MasterCard or Visa rate of about 2% of
the amount. But debit cards and cash cards incur no fee even for cash
withdrawals from ATMs, unless you use a third-party cash machine such as get
installed for profit in stores in more remote towns.
There was a move recently by the big banks to charge for other people's
customers using their ATMs, but it was defeated by a combination of public
opinion and the steadfast determination of the Building Societies
(equivalent to a Mutual, I think) not to levy such a charge on their ATMs.
Colin
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3cea8619$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
Lueko Willms
schrieb Bart...@att.spam.net (Randall Bart)
bei /COMP/SYS/UNISYS
in cv3meu4ifejq8r864...@4ax.com
ueber Re: Where is Unisys going?
RB> I strongly suspect that when Castro goes to Caracas he speaks
RB> Spanish.
Sure, but normally I do write in German, and for a German language
audience. And I'm too lazy to delete the automatically generated
signatures....
Baz
"Robbery by Cashpoint"
"Fury as banks bring in £1.25 charges by stealth"
:-(
Baz..
Victor A. Garcia
Spanish either) cannot figure out what he is saying, so they just smile and
looks happy...
Think about somebody from deep New Zealand all of student in deep Texas,
same problems.
BTW, how is Borussia M. doing in the Bundesleague (my German is worse than
Fidel Spanish)
"Lueko Willms" <l.wi...@jpberlin.de> wrote in message
news:8PMkA...@jpberlin-l.willms.jpberlin.de...
Edward Reid
> 2) If I use a debit card to pay for them with money from my checking
> account the average american bank charges between $1 to $1.50 for that single
> transaction.
I pay no fee in this situation, even if I receive cash back in the same
transaction, though I assume you are correct that most US banks will
charge.
My bank does charge me $1 for a cash withdrawal from an ATM which they
do not own.
I'm not sure whether part of a normal debit card transaction fee is a
merchant charge. I've only tried this at Publix, which is a generally
rather enlightened supermarket chain. (For example, they charge no fee
for using ATMs on their premises -- I'm indeed shocked on the rare
occasions when I get cash in an airport and pay 2-1/2 times as much for
the privilege.)
My bank is also a small one -- now part of a chain, but still a small
chain.
I certainly agree that the fee structure in the US discourages
individuals from shifting to purely electronic banking.
Edward Reid
James Johnson
account fee. The fee without the minimum balance is still less than the charges
for just 4 transactions using a debit card. Using checks is far cheaper in the
USA because of the bizarre pricing structure of services by the banks here. I
would like to get rid of personal checks but the alternatives are too expensive.
JJ
HANS-R
> but not to get us to use electronic debits instead of checks. To me
> this speaks loudly and clearly that the banks don't think that checks
> are costing them any more than the alternative. In fact, they continue
> to discourage us from using debit cards by the additional charges.
>
I would like to mention the afore mentioned situation in Finland
can be found allover the european continent.
Check are completely out. We use debit-card everywhere because it is so
cheap.
Credit cards are considered expensive are used as little as possible.
"Float" is still present: when I pay something by debit card
the money arrives at least 2-4 days later.
> If anyone wants to get on a high horse about the metric system,
How about changing from Fahrenheit to centigrade !
>oh hell, going metric.
> Edward Reid (ah, the fun of stirring up trouble)
>
YEAH
REGARDS
HANS RUTGERS
HANS-R
> > their strategy in general. Why is Unisys still in business?
No idea of the Unisys strategy, but the Microsoft strategies are clear.
Hans Rutgers
Marc Wilson
<ae225p$11st$1...@scavenger.euro.net>::
|> The banks are pushing hard to get us to use ATMs instead of tellers,
|> but not to get us to use electronic debits instead of checks. To me
|> this speaks loudly and clearly that the banks don't think that checks
|> are costing them any more than the alternative. In fact, they continue
|> to discourage us from using debit cards by the additional charges.
|>
|
|I would like to mention the afore mentioned situation in Finland
|can be found allover the european continent.
|Check are completely out. We use debit-card everywhere because it is so
|cheap.
|Credit cards are considered expensive are used as little as possible.
The UK is much more credit-card oriented- debit cards are catching on, but
still have some way to go. I noticed in the Netherlands that it was more
difficult to use credit cards than in the UK (for instance, you can't - or
couldn't- pay for train tickets with a credit card).
|"Float" is still present: when I pay something by debit card
|the money arrives at least 2-4 days later.
In the UK, the money is gone from your account there and then.
|> If anyone wants to get on a high horse about the metric system,
|How about changing from Fahrenheit to centigrade !
Farenheit- there was a great system. Pah. Fixed points of 32 and 212- why
Edward Reid
> Credit cards are considered expensive are used as little as possible.
In the US, the customer pays nothing to use a credit card as long as
he/she pays off the balance each month. Or at least the customer
perceives no cost: the merchant has to pay the bank, and the cost is
thus spread across all customers.
> "Float" is still present: when I pay something by debit card
> the money arrives at least 2-4 days later.
You have perhaps given a large part of the reason for the difference.
In the US, "debit card" means there is NO float. The account is debited
as part of the transaction. If the merchant's computers cannot talk to
the bank's computers in real time, the transaction fails.
>> If anyone wants to get on a high horse about the metric system,
> How about changing from Fahrenheit to centigrade !
Hey, I'm ready. Those of who do any sort of scientific reading are
familiar with Celsius anyway, so keeping Fahrenheit around just means
having to deal with two systems.
On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:19:13 -0400, Marc Wilson wrote
> Farenheit- there was a great system. Pah. Fixed points of 32 and 212- why
Fahrenheit set 0 to be the lowest temperature he was able to obtain
with a mixture of salt and water, and 100 to body temperature (with of
course some error from the modern viewpoint). This is a memory from
decades past, so don't trust the results.
Makes about as much sense -- albeit less repeatability -- as defining a
degree Celsius by saying that the triple point of water is 273.15K.
Edward Reid
Yves Gaffarel
>
> Those of who do any sort of scientific reading are
> familiar with Celsius anyway, so keeping Fahrenheit around just means
> having to deal with two systems.
>
I assumed so far that Kelvin was used more often in scientific documents.
>
> (...) defining a
> degree Celsius by saying that the triple point of water is 273.15K.
>
At the present time, the accepted way to indicate the freezing point of
water at 1 atmosphere of pressure in the metric system is 273.15 kelvins,
273.15 K, 0 degrees Celsius, or 0 °C.
Marc Wilson
<01HW.B92AE31A0...@news-east.usenetserver.com>::
|On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:19:13 -0400, Marc Wilson wrote
|> Farenheit- there was a great system. Pah. Fixed points of 32 and 212- why
|
|Fahrenheit set 0 to be the lowest temperature he was able to obtain
|with a mixture of salt and water, and 100 to body temperature (with of
|course some error from the modern viewpoint). This is a memory from
|decades past, so don't trust the results.
|
|Makes about as much sense -- albeit less repeatability -- as defining a
|degree Celsius by saying that the triple point of water is 273.15K.
Like they didn't. :)
Strictly, this describes a degree Kelvin- they just "happen" to be the same
size.
George Gray
established in 1730 by the French naturalist René-Antoine Ferchault de
Réaumur, with its zero set at the freezing point of water and its 80
mark at the boiling point of water at normal atmospheric pressure. To
convert Reaumur into Fahrenheit you multiply by 9, divide by 4 and add
32. To convert Reaumur into Celsius you multiply by 5 and divide by 4.
If you read Jules Verne novels, I think you'll find Reaumur
temperatures.
Edward Reid
>> Makes about as much sense -- albeit less repeatability -- as defining a
>> degree Celsius by saying that the triple point of water is 273.15K.
>
> Like they didn't. :)
>
> Strictly, this describes a degree Kelvin- they just "happen" to be the same
> size.
OK, to clarify: the Kelvin scale is defined by saying that the triple
point of water is 273.16K. (Not 273.15K as I said earlier.) More
technically, it is defined by saying that the *temperature* of the
triple point of water is 273.16K, since the triple point is
characterized by temperature and pressure. The triple point is used
rather than the freezing point because it does not require a pressure
reference (it is a single physical point) and because it can be
reproduced with greater accuracy. This is the definition, not a
measurement, just as a meter is defined as so many wavelengths of a
particular kind of light.
Then the Celsius scale is defined as having the same degree (known as
the kelvin) with 0C = 273.15K. The Kelvin scale is used as the base
because it only uses a single physical constant for its definition.
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:50:51 -0400, George Gray wrote
> What about Reaumur?
That's a new one on me ... but then there's Rankine, which has the same
degree as the Fahrenheit scale but with zero at absolute zero. Rankine
is to Fahrenheit as Kelvin is to Celsius.
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 5:31:09 -0400, Yves Gaffarel wrote
> I assumed so far that Kelvin was used more often in scientific documents.
This probably depends on what field you are reading. In medical
sciences it's almost always Celsius, and Kelvin is rare. Physics might
differ -- I don't know.
>> (...) defining a
>> degree Celsius by saying that the triple point of water is 273.15K.
>>
> Do you mean Celsius or Kelvin ?
As noted above, I should have said 273.16K. The references I found
actually say that "the kelvin" -- that is, the degree used by the
Celsius and Kelvin scales -- is defined to be 1/273.16 of the
temperature of the triple point of water. This is a thermodynamic
absolute, so you don't need any other reference point. Then Celsius is
defined by the differential of 273.15 kelvins from the Kelvin scale.
Edward Reid
Burroughs Guy
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:19:13 -0400, Marc Wilson wrote
> > Farenheit- there was a great system. Pah. Fixed points of 32 and
212- why
>
> Fahrenheit set 0 to be the lowest temperature he was able to obtain
> with a mixture of salt and water, and 100 to body temperature (with of
> course some error from the modern viewpoint). This is a memory from
> decades past, so don't trust the results.
The story about Fahrenheit setting sero to the lowest temperature he could
obtain in his lab is true. The story about 100 being human body
temperature (sometimes with the explanation that his wife was running a
slight fever that day) is bogus.
Randall Bart
as Edward Reid <edw...@paleo.org> uttered:
>As noted above, I should have said 273.16K. The references I found
>actually say that "the kelvin" -- that is, the degree used by the
>Celsius and Kelvin scales -- is defined to be 1/273.16 of the
>temperature of the triple point of water. This is a thermodynamic
>absolute, so you don't need any other reference point. Then Celsius is
>defined by the differential of 273.15 kelvins from the Kelvin scale.
Something doesn't add up here. According to your numbers, the triple point
of water is 0.01C. That can't be right. As pressure decreases, freezing
rises well above that.
Edward Reid
> Something doesn't add up here. According to your numbers, the triple point
> of water is 0.01C.
0.01C (273.16K) at a pressure of 611.2 Pa. This is a fairly serious
vacuum, as atmospheric pressure is about 10^5 Pascals.
> That can't be right.
Eppur si muove.
> As pressure decreases, freezing rises well above that.
There's a phase diagram which contradicts you at
http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/pics/941.jpg
and another at
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
It's clear from the phase diagram that the liquid/solid phase line
remains at virtually the same temperature between pressures of 0.006
atm (the triple point) and 1 atm, and never goes much above 0C. The
temperature of the liquid/solid phase line only begins to decrease
significantly with increasing pressure above 10 atm.
Of course, water is unusual in the negative slope of the liquid/solid
phase line; with most substances the slope is positive. Increasing
pressure on water favors the liquid phase over the solid because the
crystalline structure of ice makes the solid less dense than the
liquid, which is the opposite of what happens with most substances.
This is the principle which makes ice skates work: high pressure due to
the thin blade melts the ice under the blade. The phase diagram
referenced above shows that this changes above 1000 atm, presumably
because the crystalline structure breaks down at high pressure. There's
a page discussing this, and showing the contrasting phase diagrams of
water and carbon dioxide, at
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004970/states/triplep.htm
Personally I don't know the physics well enough to go into any more
detail. My father did know the physics, and he was the one who taught
me about the triple point. But he's dead, so I can't ask him for
further clarification ... or if I do, I'm unlikely to get an answer.
Edward Reid
Edward Reid
> The story about Fahrenheit setting sero to the lowest temperature he could
> obtain in his lab is true. The story about 100 being human body
> temperature (sometimes with the explanation that his wife was running a
> slight fever that day) is bogus.
Interesting. A quick search supports this. A page at
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1317.html
says that Fahrenheit used three fixed points (!): zero as described, 32
for freezing water, and 96 for body. Apparently he liked being able to
divide these scales by many powers of two. It doesn't say whether he
noticed any idscrepancy due to using three "fixed" points. After he
died, his scale was recalibrated set boiling water explicitly at 212,
resulting in a slight change in body temperature.
Edward Reid
Ward Desmet
Unit of thermodynamic temperature (kelvin) Abbreviations: CGPM, CIPM, BIPM
The definition of the unit of thermodynamic temperature was given in
substance by the 10th CGPM (1954) which selected the triple point of water
as the fundamental fixed point and assigned to it the temperature 273.16 K,
so defining the unit. The 13th CGPM (1967) adopted the name kelvin (symbol
K) instead of "degree Kelvin" (symbol 袁) and defined the unit of
thermodynamic temperature as follows:
The kelvin, unit of thermodynamic temperature, is the fraction 1/273.16 of
the thermodynamic temperature of the triple point of water.
Because of the way temperature scales used to be defined, it remains
common practice to express thermodynamic temperature, symbol T, in terms of
its difference from the reference temperature T0 = 273.15 K, the ice point.
This temperature difference is called a Celsius temperature, symbol t, and
is defined by the quantity equation
t= T- T0.
The unit of Celsius temperature is the degree Celsius, symbol 蚓,
which is by definition equal in magnitude to the kelvin. A difference or
interval of temperature may be expressed in kelvins or in degrees Celsius
(13th CGPM, 1967). The numerical value of a Celsius temperature t expressed
in degrees Celsius is given by
t/蚓 = T/K - 273.15.
The kelvin and the degree Celsius are also the units of the
International Temperature Scale of 1990 (ITS-90) adopted by the CIPM in
1989.
Return to SI Units Background
Randall Bart
as Edward Reid <edw...@paleo.org> uttered:
>> That can't be right.
>
>Eppur si muove.
I stand corrected. But you chose the wrong time to quote Galileo. I was
saying that is does muove, while you're saying it virtually doesn't.
Edward Reid
>> Eppur si muove.
> I stand corrected. But you chose the wrong time to quote Galileo. I was
> saying that is does muove, while you're saying it virtually doesn't.
That's OK. Galileo didn't really say it anyway. So it's an
inappropriate fake quote.
Edward
Randall Bart
as Edward Reid <edwar...@spamcop.net> uttered:
>That's OK. Galileo didn't really say it anyway. So it's an
>inappropriate fake quote.
Really? I just heard that Ron Popeil never said "It slices! It dices!"
It's amazing how quotes get misattributed. As Yogi Berra said, "I didn't
really say all the things I said."
BTW, can someone direct me to a phase diagram for H2O? I guess all the
phase diagrams I've seen (in definitions of triple point) were for something
else. I don't recall ever seeing one where the solid-liquid leg was nearly
vertical (or horizontal). The diagram here is a typical one:
http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/examples/triplpt.html
It is inconsistent with what y'all are telling me.
Oh never mind, I found it here:
http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/pics/941.jpg. I
don't think I have ever seen a phase diagram like that one before. Why do
people always use a phase diagram like the first one when discussing triple
point, then imply it's a phase diagram for water?
Edward Reid
>> That's OK. Galileo didn't really say it anyway. So it's an
>> inappropriate fake quote.
>
> Really? I just heard that Ron Popeil never said "It slices! It dices!"
> It's amazing how quotes get misattributed. As Yogi Berra said, "I didn't
> really say all the things I said."
A few years ago I went looking on the web to find out exactly what the
phrase was (in Italian). In the process I discovered that the first
record of its attribution to Galileo is over a century after his death.
> Oh never mind, I found it here:
> http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/pics/941.jpg. I
> don't think I have ever seen a phase diagram like that one before. Why do
> people always use a phase diagram like the first one when discussing triple
> point, then imply it's a phase diagram for water?
Well, I can't account for what people do, except that obviously they
haven't learned that water is an exception.
The third reference I gave, which was
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004970/states/triplep.htm
does discuss the difference and give examples of the different phase
diagrams of H2O vs CO2.
Edward Reid