New TRS80 User & TRS32

[christi...@yahoo.com]

I never had a trs80 computer and never had a chance to use one. I was
raised on the c64.

So I have a few questions and since I couldn't find a trs80 emulator
faq that answered these questions.....

I'm using TRS32. I have working Level1, Model3 and Model4 roms.

I have a .DSK image I wish to load.

I select any of these models, I insert the disk, reset the machine and
nothing happens (the screen is blank). The leftmost red light is on and
the three blocks beside it are black.

Without a disk Model 3&4 ask 'Diskette?'

The .DSK in question is a basic game called Temple of Apshai. I've
tried other .DSK images with the same result.

Also, I has some standalone trs80 basic files I may wish to try. How do
I load these?

Christian

[Mark McDougall]

christi...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I select any of these models, I insert the disk, reset the machine and
> nothing happens (the screen is blank). The leftmost red light is on and
> the three blocks beside it are black.

Ah, the fun begins! ;)

The TRS-80 Models 3 & 4 booted DOS from diskette - there was no DOS in
ROM so you need a bootable disk. It may be that the DSK images you have
tried aren't bootable!?! Or perhaps they're Model I boot disks?

Now, to complicate matters, there were more than a few different
operating systems available, perhaps most notably TRS-80, Newdos/80 and
LDOS. The degree of interoperability between DOS formats differed from
DOS to DOS.

To further complicate matters, the TRS-80 models supported different
disk formats such as single and double density (with different adapters
no less), numbers of tracks, as well as other options. In most cases,
you needed to explicitly specify what format of disk you were using.

If that's not enough, some of the DOSes also had 'Model I' counterparts
which had slightly different formats again. You could play 99% of Model
I (non-bootable) software directly on a Model 3/4 if you set up the DOS
correctly.

Then you have 'native' Model 4 mode, which brings another set of DOSes
and hardware compatibility issues to the table. However, in this case
you shouldn't need to worry about this.

> The .DSK in question is a basic game called Temple of Apshai. I've
> tried other .DSK images with the same result.

I suspect TOA is in fact bootable - perhaps it's a Model I? The Model I
DOSes won't boot on a model 3/4 and vice-versa because of hardware
differences.

As for other non-bootable DSK images, you need to know what format they
are, and boot the corresponding DOS boot disk. You may also need to
specify - within that DOS - the exact format of the DSK image. As I
said, some DOSes are smarter than others and can work this out to some
degree itself. Others would know more about this than me.

> Also, I has some standalone trs80 basic files I may wish to try. How do
> I load these?

You'll need to boot a DOS diskette and run DOS basic. If the files you
have are on PC format you'll have to import them onto a compatible DOS
data disk to run them in the emulator. xtrs (linux) will allow you
import a file directly from the host OS. It does also run under cygwin
so in theory it would work on windoze too.

Regards,

--
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, <http://www.vl.com.au>
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

[christi...@yahoo.com]

Mark McDougall wrote:
> christi...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I select any of these models, I insert the disk, reset the machine and
> > nothing happens (the screen is blank). The leftmost red light is on and
> > the three blocks beside it are black.
>
> Ah, the fun begins! ;)

Uhoh. I don't like the sound of this.....

> The TRS-80 Models 3 & 4 booted DOS from diskette - there was no DOS in
> ROM so you need a bootable disk. It may be that the DSK images you have
> tried aren't bootable!?! Or perhaps they're Model I boot disks?

OK. I just procured a working model1.rom. It won't load the game in
question however, it will load DOSPLUS.

Now how do I load a dsk file from dosplus?

> Now, to complicate matters, there were more than a few different
> operating systems available, perhaps most notably TRS-80, Newdos/80 and
> LDOS. The degree of interoperability between DOS formats differed from
> DOS to DOS.

Looks like the innovators of 1978-82 just couldn't pass up a good
thing!

> To further complicate matters, the TRS-80 models supported different
> disk formats such as single and double density (with different adapters
> no less), numbers of tracks, as well as other options. In most cases,
> you needed to explicitly specify what format of disk you were using.

WOW. This is really bad news.

> If that's not enough, some of the DOSes also had 'Model I' counterparts
> which had slightly different formats again. You could play 99% of Model
> I (non-bootable) software directly on a Model 3/4 if you set up the DOS
> correctly.

Sounds interesting. Where can I go for more info on this?

> Then you have 'native' Model 4 mode, which brings another set of DOSes
> and hardware compatibility issues to the table. However, in this case
> you shouldn't need to worry about this.

ok

> > The .DSK in question is a basic game called Temple of Apshai. I've
> > tried other .DSK images with the same result.
>
> I suspect TOA is in fact bootable - perhaps it's a Model I? The Model I
> DOSes won't boot on a model 3/4 and vice-versa because of hardware
> differences.
>
> As for other non-bootable DSK images, you need to know what format they
> are, and boot the corresponding DOS boot disk. You may also need to
> specify - within that DOS - the exact format of the DSK image. As I
> said, some DOSes are smarter than others and can work this out to some
> degree itself. Others would know more about this than me.

Is there a list with these formats cross referrenced?

http://vgmuseum.chaoticmonkey.com/epyx/epyx-82catalog-gamelist.jpg

This says it's TRSDOS 32k.

OK. TRSDOS boots up. Now how do I load the DSK?

I put it into drive 1 (drive 0 has the dos on it). I type LOAD" - and I
can't find the astrix to load the first file on the disk (which is how
the c= works).

I assumed LOAD"*",1 would do the trick..... but no luck.

> > Also, I has some standalone trs80 basic files I may wish to try. How do
> > I load these?
>
> You'll need to boot a DOS diskette and run DOS basic. If the files you
> have are on PC format you'll have to import them onto a compatible DOS
> data disk to run them in the emulator. xtrs (linux) will allow you
> import a file directly from the host OS. It does also run under cygwin
> so in theory it would work on windoze too.

This sounds too complicated. Is there a win utility that puts these
basic files into a DSK image?

Thanks for all the help. Now that I've gotten a few things to finally
work I'm getting more optimistic.

Christian

[Larry]

<christi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1155599584.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

You can get the manual for the Temple of Apshai here:

http://www.cstone.net/~rich/

Larry

[christi...@yahoo.com]

Larry wrote:
> You can get the manual for the Temple of Apshai here:
>
> http://www.cstone.net/~rich/

Yes, I saw that. Awfully nice of him to do that.

This is also another great site for DUNJONQUEST info:

http://vgmuseum.chaoticmonkey.com/loadpage.php?getcompany=epyx

There are another few manuals here:
http://www2.asub.arknet.edu/wade/software.htm

Hellfire Warrior
Morloc's Tower (simply under Dunjon Quest)
Keys Of Acheron

I researched and gathered a list a few days ago (before I found the
vgmuseum site):

The Connelley Group (Automated Simulations)
================================

Dunjon Quest:
--------------------
1979 *Temple of Apshai (80,AT,64,VIC)
1979 Datestones of Ryn (80,AT)
1979 Morloc's Tower (80,AT)
1980 Curse of Ra (80,64)
1981 Upper Reaches of Apshai (80)

Gateway to Apshai (AT,64)

1980 *Hellfire Warrior (80,AT)
1981 Keys of Acheron (80)
1982 Danger in Drindisty (80,AT)

Sword of Fargoal (64)
Crypts of the Undead (AT)
Dragon's Eye (AT)
Escape - Vulcan Isle (AT)
King Author's Heir

Star Quest:
--------------------
1980 Rescue at Rigel (80,AT,AP2,VIC)
Star Warrior (80,AT,AP2)

Starfleet Orion (AT)
Invasion Orion (80)
Ricochet (80,AT)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

80 - TRS 80
AT - Atari computer
AP2 - Apple 2
64 - C64
VIC - VIC

Note:

The games following a title with an * is what's considered an expansion
modules for that title.

When I was unsure, I just guessed. Without box scans and manuals, I
can't be positive.

As for the platforms, I'm 90% sure that those listed are correct. Of
course, if I couldn't find a reference to which platform the game was
for - I didn't guess.

Of course, The Temple of Apshai Trilogy combined The Temple of Apshai,
The Upper Reaches, and The Temple of Ra.

Dates listed are the earliest found dates. I did not attempt to keep
track of date released per platform.

I've been able to look at a manual scan for Hellfire Warrior and I was
surprised to find that each room on each level has a text description
in the manual. Very D&D module like. So, if anyone knows where to find
a collection of these manual scans I'd love to see them.

Christian

[DaveG]

Sometime on Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:33:57 -0700, christianlott1 scribbled:

> I put it into drive 1 (drive 0 has the dos on it). I type LOAD" - and I
> can't find the astrix to load the first file on the disk (which is how
> the c= works).
>
> I assumed LOAD"*",1 would do the trick..... but no luck.

It's actually less complicated than you might imagine having come from the
more "arcane" notation used by CBM.

Dir for a directory listing

dir :0 or dir :1 for a directorl listing of drive 0 or drive 1.

runnable binary programs are name progname/cmd

Just type progname to to run it or progname:1 if it's drive 1

It more MSDOS-like (or CP/M-like) than CBM (in the PET/Vic/C64/C128 era)
ever was. :-)

--
Dave
Our business in life is not to succeed,
but to continue to fail in good spirits.
Robert Louis Stevenson

[christi...@yahoo.com]

DaveG wrote:
> Sometime on Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:33:57 -0700, christianlott1 scribbled:
>
> > I put it into drive 1 (drive 0 has the dos on it). I type LOAD" - and I
> > can't find the astrix to load the first file on the disk (which is how
> > the c= works).
> >
> > I assumed LOAD"*",1 would do the trick..... but no luck.
>
> It's actually less complicated than you might imagine having come from the
> more "arcane" notation used by CBM.
>
> Dir for a directory listing
>
> dir :0 or dir :1 for a directorl listing of drive 0 or drive 1.
>
> runnable binary programs are name progname/cmd
>
> Just type progname to to run it or progname:1 if it's drive 1

It's not working.

All versions of TRSDOS I have can give me a directory but when I load
the program by name, it either acts like it's not there or says 'bad
format'.

TRSDOS 2.7DD says **ERROR 24**

Heck, it says that on any program name I use....

TRSDOS 2.1 says ***ERRCOD=34, LOAD FILE FORMAT ERROR***

The TRSDOS 2.1 is different. Some files it will say 'PROGRAM NOT FOUND'
when they're listed in the directory. Some programs it will give that
error and hang.

I'm only talking about this one DSK image. I have archives of many more
DUNJONQUEST programs but they're all BAS files outside of a containing
image (they show up regularly in a win32 directory). These I still
don't understand how to load into the emulator.

[Mark McDougall]

christi...@yahoo.com wrote:

>> Just type progname to to run it or progname:1 if it's drive 1
> It's not working.

That is true for binary files, generally with a ".COM" extension.

If you're trying to load a basic program, this won't work.

You need to fire up disk basic first, which should be included on any
complete TRSDOS boot disk image. Try this at the TRSDOS Ready prompt...

BASIC

And then from the BASIC prompt...

cmd"dir :1"
load"<filename>/bas" <-- replace <filename> obviously
run

[Mark McDougall]

Mark McDougall wrote:

> That is true for binary files, generally with a ".COM" extension.

Oops - make that "/CMD" extension!

Too many computers, too many operating systems... ;)

[christi...@yahoo.com]

Mark McDougall wrote:
> Mark McDougall wrote:
>
> > That is true for binary files, generally with a ".COM" extension.
>
> Oops - make that "/CMD" extension!

Oh. That's funny. Some of the names on this disk have a /JCL extension.

OK. I typed BASIC (TRSDOS27) and here's what it said w/ my responses:

How Many Files? 6
MEMORY SIZE? 48K
Syntax Error
MEMORY SIZE? 48000
TRS-80 Model I Disk BASIC Rev 2.7DD
(c)(p) 1981 by Tandy Corp. All Rights Reserved.
Created 5-Jul-81
19,439 Free Bytes 6 Files
READY
>CMD"DIR :1"
Syntax Error
READY
>

I tried the same thing for TRSDOS21 and the thing accesses the disk
then spits out a Z80 register dump!

Very funny actually.

Maybe I could email this to you and you could have a look at it.

Christian

[Knut Roll-Lund]

christi...@yahoo.com wrote:

"load format" is the name of the format of a command (/CMD) file. Maybe
the file is basic, you would get that error... then and you need to run
it from BASIC the extension is actually irrelevant (like MSDOS WinXP
etc.) you just have to start basic by the command BASIC then
RUN"filename" where filename is whatever the file is named. There are
differences between the dos'es there, the program can be specified on
the BASIC command but generally what I describe above works.

I did have a look at the available downloads and found that they come as
cas (cassette) bas (basic program) and dsk (for disk). There being bas
available indicates that it is a basic program.

The first dsk I tried was not bootable and seemed to be JV1 format and
reads fine by LDOS (v5.3.1) it even have /JCL files these are
job-control files i.e. batch files. The /JCL files are run by the DO
command in LDOS but it fails so I instead LIST APSHAI/JCL to see what it
does.
BASIC,46700,RUN"INN"
this is not the BASIC command syntax of LDOS or DOSPLUS... the meanining
is to protect memory above 46700 then to run INN as a basic program.

I leave this at that and go on to try the other DSK I downloaded, this
is also in JV1 format and boots directly into the game and runs on
NEWDOS80 v1.0 and does the command from the JCL file automatically (you
can briefly see it).

Possibly the other DSK can be used with DOSPLUS but the command line of
BASIC has to change. There is no memory protect through the BASIC
command so one would need to do SYSTEM,HIGH=46700 and then BASIC INN
(possibly BASIC INN/ because the extension is not /BAS). But INN seems
to chain into the next basic module and might do that in a way DOSPLUS
doesn't like so further changes might be necessary... so I recommend to
download the other dsk from http://www.trs-80.com/ find "Dunjonquest:
Temple of Apshai [a]" and get the dsk version of that, it boots directly
into the game.
--
Knut
(delete 'nogarbage.' for email)

[christi...@yahoo.com]

Knut Roll-Lund wrote:
> "load format" is the name of the format of a command (/CMD) file. Maybe
> the file is basic, you would get that error... then and you need to run
> it from BASIC the extension is actually irrelevant (like MSDOS WinXP
> etc.) you just have to start basic by the command BASIC then
> RUN"filename" where filename is whatever the file is named. There are
> differences between the dos'es there, the program can be specified on
> the BASIC command but generally what I describe above works.

OK

RUN"filename"

> I did have a look at the available downloads and found that they come as
> cas (cassette) bas (basic program) and dsk (for disk). There being bas
> available indicates that it is a basic program.
>
> The first dsk I tried was not bootable and seemed to be JV1 format and
> reads fine by LDOS (v5.3.1) it even have /JCL files these are
> job-control files i.e. batch files. The /JCL files are run by the DO
> command in LDOS but it fails so I instead LIST APSHAI/JCL to see what it
> does.
> BASIC,46700,RUN"INN"
> this is not the BASIC command syntax of LDOS or DOSPLUS... the meanining
> is to protect memory above 46700 then to run INN as a basic program.

DO"prgname"
LIST"prgname"

> I leave this at that and go on to try the other DSK I downloaded, this
> is also in JV1 format and boots directly into the game and runs on
> NEWDOS80 v1.0 and does the command from the JCL file automatically (you
> can briefly see it).
>
> Possibly the other DSK can be used with DOSPLUS but the command line of
> BASIC has to change. There is no memory protect through the BASIC
> command so one would need to do SYSTEM,HIGH=46700 and then BASIC INN
> (possibly BASIC INN/ because the extension is not /BAS). But INN seems
> to chain into the next basic module and might do that in a way DOSPLUS
> doesn't like so further changes might be necessary... so I recommend to
> download the other dsk from http://www.trs-80.com/ find "Dunjonquest:
> Temple of Apshai [a]" and get the dsk version of that, it boots directly
> into the game.

Actually, it's the version right before [a] that auto loads. The [a]
version doesn't even seem like it's got apshai on it for some reason.

Thank you. I got Apsahi to autoload from the DSK. It's kind of scarrier
to play as you watch it draw the screen so slowly and everything's in
b&w.

Very nice!

Christian

[Mark McDougall]

christi...@yahoo.com wrote:

> READY
>> CMD"DIR :1"
> Syntax Error

Hmmm, it would appear that the above is only valid in NEWDOS/80 (I never
did use TRSDOS). To list a directory from TRSDOS apparently you need to
use CMD"I","DIR" which actually drops you back to TRSDOS.

Anyway, how about
LOAD "<filename>/BAS"
RUN

or just

RUN "<filename>/BAS"

That should work in TRSDOS as well as NEWDOS/80.

You can email me the DSK files you're using if you like.

Regards,

[Mark McDougall]

I used the TRSDOS 2.3 Master disk from Ira's site.
The Apshai disk is in drive 1.

I don't know how to load JCL files from TRSDOS 2.3, so I looked at the
disk image with a hex editor and found the JCL files.
To run...

BASIC
8
46700
RUN"INN"

Regards,

[christi...@yahoo.com]

Mark McDougall wrote:
> BASIC
> 8
> 46700
> RUN"INN"

RUN"INN2" starts Hellfire Warrior!

Excellent! Thank you!

Thank you Mark!

[DaveG]

Sometime on Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:45:32 -0700, christianlott1 scribbled:

> How Many Files? 6

Dunno about that. Just press Return.

> MEMORY SIZE? 48K
> Syntax Error
> MEMORY SIZE? 48000

Just press return unless you know you need to enter something. The
"memory Size?" prompt is asking how much RAM you want to reserve for other
uses after BASIC has loaded. You just told it to reserve the entire RAM,
more than is available to BASIC with DOS loaded. For that matter, even in
Cassette BASIC, not much, if anything, would work with 48k reserved for
non-BASIC use.

> TRS-80 Model I Disk BASIC Rev 2.7DD
> (c)(p) 1981 by Tandy Corp. All Rights Reserved.
> Created 5-Jul-81
> 19,439 Free Bytes 6 Files
> READY
>>CMD"DIR :1"
> Syntax Error
> READY
>>
>
> I tried the same thing for TRSDOS21 and the thing accesses the disk
> then spits out a Z80 register dump!
>
> Very funny actually.
>
> Maybe I could email this to you and you could have a look at it.

[Richard VanHouten]

DaveG wrote:

> Sometime on Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:45:32 -0700, christianlott1 scribbled:
>
>
>>How Many Files? 6
>
>
> Dunno about that. Just press Return.
>
>
>>MEMORY SIZE? 48K
>>Syntax Error
>>MEMORY SIZE? 48000
>
>
> Just press return unless you know you need to enter something. The
> "memory Size?" prompt is asking how much RAM you want to reserve for other
> uses after BASIC has loaded. You just told it to reserve the entire RAM,
> more than is available to BASIC with DOS loaded. For that matter, even in
> Cassette BASIC, not much, if anything, would work with 48k reserved for
> non-BASIC use.

No, he didn't. The answer to the memory size prompt is the address
where reserved memory starts. With a 48k RAM machine, that's reserving
slightly over 16k of memory. The Dunjonquest programs actually need
reserved memory, since they poke the data file into memory for sharing
between the Inn and Dunjon programs.

[Knut Roll-Lund]

It actually checks and refuses to run unless the memory size is set
correctly...

BTW CMD"dos-command" from basic is both so in LDOS and DOSPLUS

[DaveG]

Sometime on Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:51:05 +0000, Richard VanHouten scribbled:

> No, he didn't. The answer to the memory size prompt is the address
> where reserved memory starts. With a 48k RAM machine, that's reserving
> slightly over 16k of memory. The Dunjonquest programs actually need
> reserved memory, since they poke the data file into memory for sharing
> between the Inn and Dunjon programs.

Oops. Failing memory here ;-)

[christi...@yahoo.com]

I'm sure glad you TRS 80 guys are still around!