1000TX Hard drive controller
Douglas
website I need
a Seagate ST351A/X, So I bought a NOS unit off ebay, It's a IDE SMART
drive, 40 meg.
I understand I need a controller with built in BIOS to tell the main
board it exists.
DCS sells it for 70.00, is there any alternative? I have searched ebay
for quite some time with no luck.
Thanks for any help
Doug
Neil Morrison
remember that T1000s have unusual interrupts for the HD.
--
Regards,
Neil
"Douglas" <dug...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:a69bb558.02061...@posting.google.com...
Frank Zsitvay
available. There is an IDE port on the main logic board, but
it will only work with an XT class IDE drive.
Now, this is the saving grace - the ST351A/X drive you have
can be jumpered as either an XT or AT compatible IDE drive.
The data sheet for your drive is available here:
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/at/st351ax.txt
The file has a number of graphic characters in it, so you
had better use the MSDOS editor to look at it, or else it
won't make sense.
Once you jumper and install the drive, then you need to do
whatever configuration magic that a Tandy 1000 needs to
recognize a hard disk.
I'll leave those details to someone who is much more
familiar with the Tandy 1000 series machines than I am.
-Frank
Never Mind
> While your machine has a 286, it only has 8 bit slots
>available. There is an IDE port on the main logic board, but
>it will only work with an XT class IDE drive.
Not on a TX. Later 1000's did, but not the TX, which is why he's
looking for a controller card.
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Mike Yetsko
Shack (at the big computer stores) sold for a while an 8-bit interface
card with a ROM on it that allowed some AT class drives to work in
8-bit machines.
There are really two problems. One is the BIOS has to have the ROM,
and the other is the interface to the drive. AT class machines are VERY
easy to interface to AT type drives. Just a few registers and everything
works in essentially a 'poll mode'. However, the drives themselves
can have problems.
I don't know if all the cards out that do this, but there's a bug in some
drives. If you issue a 'read sector' command, you just do 256 reads
of the port. After the last read, the data ready goes away. (It's been
a LONG time, so I'd have to look at the spec...) This is fine on a
16-bit port. 256 * 16 bit is 512 bytes, a sector. Now if you do that
in 8-bit mode, you have to do it 512 times.
SOME of the 8-bit cards still had a 16-bit interface to the drives. But
at least one of the ones I ran into had an 8-bit to match the card
interface.
It was a LOT simpler, and usually worked.
Usually. Turns out there were a few drives that had a problem. Do 511
reads and you were into the last word on the drive, right? But you STILL
had one byte to go because you were reading BYTES, not words. But
the drive would take away the data ready.
I did manage to get a work-around for this in one platform. (In my case I
was using a PCMCIA card that was only 8-bit but interfacing to an IDE
drive that was 16bit.) but I had to do slightly different things for
slightly
different drives. (Yeah, there were a few 8-bit machines with PCMCIA
out there... Not many!)
Mike
"Never Mind" <a...@b.com> wrote in message
news:m1dkguk5de3gcsm0m...@4ax.com...
Frank Zsitvay
>
> Frank Zsitvay <fr...@rdwarf.com> wrote:
>
> > While your machine has a 286, it only has 8 bit slots
> >available. There is an IDE port on the main logic board, but
> >it will only work with an XT class IDE drive.
>
> Not on a TX. Later 1000's did, but not the TX, which is why he's
> looking for a controller card.
At support.radioshack.com, on the Tandy 1000TX page...
http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/1160.htm
...there is a link to this document...
http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/doc3/3311.htm
...which implies that an XT IDE interface is standard
equipment.
If it isn't, then instead of finding an 8 bit IDE host
interface, which were quite rare, perhaps it would be easier
to find a Western Digital 1002-WX1 or equivalent MFM
controller and an MFM drive. While both of those would be
quite old, I would think they would be easier to find.
Assuming a memory hole at C8000-D0000 and a free interrupt, a
1002-WX1 will work in anything with an IBM clone BIOS and 8
bit ISA hardware.
-Frank
Jan Vanden Bossche
Frank Zsitvay <fr...@rdwarf.com> wrote in article
<3D0C370D...@rdwarf.com>...
> While your machine has a 286, it only has 8 bit slots
> available. There is an IDE port on the main logic board, but
> it will only work with an XT class IDE drive.
No, sadly, there isn't. The build-in 8-bit IDE-board only appeared in the
1000 TL/2
> I'll leave those details to someone who is much more
> familiar with the Tandy 1000 series machines than I am.
I would not be a bad idea to read the Tandy 1000 FAQ completely. It was
posted just recently in this NG as "Tandy FAQ". For the TX, there isn't an
interrupt problem anymore, because ther is a jumper to switch and the
machine reverts to XT-standard for HD-controllers.
> -Frank
>
>
> Douglas wrote:
> >
> > I want to add a hard drive to my 1000TX, according to Radio Shack
> > website I need
> > a Seagate ST351A/X, So I bought a NOS unit off ebay, It's a IDE SMART
> > drive, 40 meg.
Good disk.
> > I understand I need a controller with built in BIOS to tell the main
> > board it exists.
Any computer needs a controller to drive a HD.
> > DCS sells it for 70.00, is there any alternative?
> > I have searched ebay
> > for quite some time with no luck.
Well, Tandy 1000-series compatible controllers aren't that common.
> > Thanks for any help
> > Doug
I have an 8-bit card that permits XT's to use AT-IDE-drives, but sadly, it
doesn't work in a Tandy 1000: needs a different BIOS. Need more info ? Ask.
There was an 8-bit IDE-board, for XT-IDE-drives in the Tandy 1000 SL/2,
AFAIK it was from WD. That would probably fit the 1000 TX too.
Doug needs to do a lot of reading and searching. before he can put his disk
to use.
But I wonder why he went for the IDE-drive ? Any (short) MFM or RLL
controller/HD combination would have done the trick: I put an RLL 30 MB HD
with an Adaptec controller (no, it isn't SCSI) in my 1000 TL. Works fine.
Looking for a 60 MB HD now [G]
Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus
Jan-80
Jan Vanden Bossche
> Never Mind wrote:
> >
> > Frank Zsitvay <fr...@rdwarf.com> wrote:
> >
> > > While your machine has a 286, it only has 8 bit slots
> > >available. There is an IDE port on the main logic board, but
> > >it will only work with an XT class IDE drive.
> >
> > Not on a TX. Later 1000's did, but not the TX, which is why he's
> > looking for a controller card.
>
> At support.radioshack.com, on the Tandy 1000TX page...
>
> http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/1160.htm
INdeed, the Tandy 1000 TX documentation page.
> ...there is a link to this document...
>
> http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/doc3/3311.htm
>
> ...which implies that an XT IDE interface is standard
> equipment.
Oho: look at this:
[title>Tandy 1000 TL/3 250-1603 Smartdrives</title]
I don't know why they linked to that, but that is only applicable for the
TL/2 & TL/3, with IDE on the motharboard, and the SL/2, where a WD 8-bit
IDE I/F was a standard accessoire.
> If it isn't,
This ...
http://support.radioshack.com/support_computer/doc1/1276.htm
... doesn't show an "IDE on board".
> then instead of finding an 8 bit IDE host
> interface, which were quite rare, perhaps it would be easier
> to find a Western Digital 1002-WX1 or equivalent MFM
> controller and an MFM drive. While both of those would be
> quite old, I would think they would be easier to find.
My point exactly. Any HD/controller combination for an XT will do.
> -Frank
Douglas
I was following the Radio Shack suggested hard drive, also from some
of you folks as to the Seagate 351A/X, I was able to buy a new old
stock unit, 40 meg seems pleanty, I didn't know how much trouble it
would be to find a controller.
I guess I'll just have to pay DCS for the right controller and be done
with it, I was trying to keep cost down, and I've learned a lot from
you all.
I have done a lot of reading and searching, guess I'm in over my head,
did'nt think it would be so much trouble to add a hard drive to my
1000TX Whew!!
Thanks every one
Frank Zsitvay
Douglas wrote:
>
> I was following the Radio Shack suggested hard drive, also from some
> of you folks as to the Seagate 351A/X, I was able to buy a new old
> stock unit, 40 meg seems pleanty, I didn't know how much trouble it
> would be to find a controller.
> I guess I'll just have to pay DCS for the right controller and be done
> with it, I was trying to keep cost down, and I've learned a lot from
> you all.
> I have done a lot of reading and searching, guess I'm in over my head,
> did'nt think it would be so much trouble to add a hard drive to my
> 1000TX Whew!!
> Thanks every one
$70 for a controller for this machine would be a waste of
money, in my opinion.
Sometimes it isn't worth it to put that kind of money into
an older machine. This is one of those times.
I'm sorry that you seem to be a bit discouraged about your
situation. I don't know who told you to take the path that
you did, but obviously it wasn't what you were expecting.
You might want to just wait a bit and lurk around on eBay.
You can find Tandy 1000 series machines with hard disks
already installed for a lot less than $70, shipping included.
About 3 months ago I bought a Tandy 1000RLX from someone on
eBay, had 800 megs of disk, 9 megs of RAM, a 386sx25 with
built in video and sound, as well as a network card, all for
the princely sum of $10. It's a cute little "pizza box"
machine, currently my embedded Linux "crash test dummy."
Here, look at this one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2032167006
Has a 20 meg drive already, which means it will also have
the controller you need. You can add your drive to this to
make 60 megs of storage, or just swap yours in for the 40 megs
you originally wanted.
Then you can either sell your existing machine, or keep it
as a spare.
How about this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2032993814
It's a TL/2, so it has the controller built it. Add your
hard disk, and you're all set.
I would be suprised if either one of these auction went over
$70 including shipping.
-Frank
Jan Vanden Bossche
> From: Douglas <dug...@msn.com>
> >
> > I would not be a bad idea to read the Tandy 1000 FAQ completely.
In case you didn't find it yet, here it is:
http://www.oldskool.org/~tvdog/1kfaq.html
> > > > a Seagate ST351A/X, So I bought a NOS unit off ebay,
> > > > It's a IDE SMART drive, 40 meg.
> >
> > Good disk.
Actually, it's one of the rare ones I know switchable between XT and AT
settings. That's what the A/X stands for. Seagate still sells all the IDE
drive designations with an "A" suffix.
> > > > DCS sells it for 70.00, is there any alternative?
Actually, what DO they sell ? Got any specs ? An URL to look at it ?
> > I have an 8-bit card that permits XT's to use AT-IDE-drives, but sadly,
> > it
> > doesn't work in a Tandy 1000: needs a different BIOS. Need more info ?
> > Ask.
OK: it's an Silicon Valley ADP50L. I quote from the T1000 Faq:
---quote---
Other systems do not have a built-in controller and will need one on an
expansion card, and even if you have a built-in IDE interface you can go
this route. It needs to be an 8-bit card, and if it's an IDE controller it
needs to have a special Tandy BIOS if (a) your computer is an old (pre-SL)
system, or (b) it has a built-in XT IDE interface. The Silicon Valley
ADP50T ("T" for Tandy BIOS, ADP50 is not the same) is a good 8-bit AT IDE
card that cooperates with your existing XT IDE drive and can chain two AT
IDE drives, and it does not use DMA or IRQ. Acculogic also makes 8-bit AT
IDE controllers that some in comp.sys.tandy swear by, but be careful as
some Acculogic controllers will not work with some Tandy's.
---end-quote---
HEY! now that I read this ... does that mean I CAN use this ADP50L in my
Tandy 1000 TL ?
> > There was an 8-bit IDE-board, for XT-IDE-drives in the Tandy 1000 SL/2,
> > AFAIK it was from WD. That would probably fit the 1000 TX too.
Find a 1000 TL/2 and raid it for its controller.
> > But I wonder why he went for the IDE-drive ? Any (short) MFM or RLL
> > controller/HD combination would have done the trick
In other words: get any XT and rip out the controller and HD. Should work.
> I was following the Radio Shack suggested hard drive, also from some
> of you folks as to the Seagate 351A/X, I was able to buy a new old
> stock unit, 40 meg seems pleanty,
Definitely.
> I didn't know how much trouble it
> would be to find a controller.
Welcome to the world of Tandy computers. They are pretty compatible, just
in the areas that really cost a lot ... they're not.
> I guess I'll just have to pay DCS for the right controller and be done
> with it, I was trying to keep cost down, and I've learned a lot from
> you all.
Check this out from:
http://www.eztechstuff.com/archives/th99/c/txt/21418.txt
---quote---
TANDY/RADIO SHACK
250-1095
Card type Hard drive controller
Hard Drives supported Two IDE (AT) drives
Floppy drives supported None
Data Bus 8-bit ISA
Card Size Full-length, full-height card
---end-quote---
and a quick search on the Tandy (excuse me) Radioshack website got me
another one:
---quote---
IDE Hard Disk Adapters
XT IDE Adapter 250-1088
AT/XT IDE Adapter 250-1095
---end-quote---
According to the T1000 Faq, the last one sells for $99.-, but you just
might want to ask the Shack (national parts) how much either of them costs:
You've got the catalog numbers right there
> I have done a lot of reading and searching, guess I'm in over my head,
> did'nt think it would be so much trouble to add a hard drive to my
> 1000TX Whew!!
Don't despair yet. How long have you been at it now ? A month, 2 ? Your
computer is 10 years old, it can wait a while more.
> Thanks every one
Leonard Erickson
wrote:
>> > There was an 8-bit IDE-board, for XT-IDE-drives in the Tandy 1000 SL/2,
>> > AFAIK it was from WD. That would probably fit the 1000 TX too.
>
>Find a 1000 TL/2 and raid it for its controller.
TL/2 has the controller on the motherboard. I think you meant SL/2.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
sha...@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leo...@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Douglas
> On 19 Jun 2002 18:59:05 GMT, "Jan Vanden Bossche" <j.vd.b...@pi.be>
> wrote:
>
> >> > There was an 8-bit IDE-board, for XT-IDE-drives in the Tandy 1000 SL/2,
> >> > AFAIK it was from WD. That would probably fit the 1000 TX too.
> >
> >Find a 1000 TL/2 and raid it for its controller.
>
> TL/2 has the controller on the motherboard. I think you meant SL/2.
With some much needed help from a vintage pc dealer on ebay, the
seagate st351a/x is reall a RLL drive, no problem using a mfm
controller, such as
western digital wd1002a.
Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
an MFM/RLL
Douglas
Jan Vanden Bossche
Douglas <dug...@msn.com> wrote in article
<a69bb558.02062...@posting.google.com>...
> Leonard Erickson <sha...@krypton.rain.com> wrote in message
news:<oe73huoksdflqces8...@4ax.com>...
> > On 19 Jun 2002 18:59:05 GMT, "Jan Vanden Bossche" <j.vd.b...@pi.be>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> > There was an 8-bit IDE-board, for XT-IDE-drives in the Tandy 1000
SL/2,
> > >> > AFAIK it was from WD. That would probably fit the 1000 TX too.
> > >
> > >Find a 1000 TL/2 and raid it for its controller.
> >
> > TL/2 has the controller on the motherboard. I think you meant SL/2.
Correct. Faute de frappe.
> With some much needed help from a vintage pc dealer on ebay, the
> seagate st351a/x is reall a RLL drive,
No way. Dump that guy. It's very definitely an IDE drive. Why trust him,
and not what the combined knowledge of this newsgroups says ? Recording is
RLL, (it always is) the interface is ATA = IDE.
> no problem using a mfm controller, such as
> western digital wd1002a.
Nope. It won't. Go on, try it. Considering that MFM and RLL use different
cabling, they won't even fit.
Look at the connector: it's a 40 pins male, isn't it ? That's IDE. An
RLL/MFM typically has 2 card-edge connectors: one narrow, one wide.
> Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
> an MFM/RLL
RS did a lot of things, but they didn't lie about their products...
Especially not when they weren't.
> Douglas
>
Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus
Jan-80
http://www.drive-experts.com/prod01.html
Seagate ST 351 A/X 43MB IDE-AT
Leonard Erickson
Your dealer is confused. Or more likely he didn't have an answer and
made one up to suit whatever he wanted to sell you.
IDE drives *are* MFM/RLL/whatever.
But the drive *controller* is on the drive, not a separate card.
Instead, all you need is a (much) simpler interface on the motherboard
or "controller" card.
The interface is just different for the XT and AT versions of IDE, which
is why you need a special card to use AT IDE on an XT class system like
a Tandy 1000.
And there's no way in hell you can use an ST-351A/X with an MFM or RLL
controller card. Those card had a 34 pin *card edge* connector (like
5.25" floppies) *and* each drive had a *second* card edge that was 16(?)
pins, for the data. So the controller had 3 connectors. One for the 34
pin cable (which went to both drives), and two for the data cables (one
to each drive).
The ST-351A/X like all IDE drives has a 40 pin *pin* connector.
Frank Zsitvay
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> On 21 Jun 2002 06:06:19 -0700, dug...@msn.com (Douglas) wrote:
> >
> >With some much needed help from a vintage pc dealer on ebay, the
> >seagate st351a/x is reall a RLL drive, no problem using a mfm
> >controller, such as
> >western digital wd1002a.
> >Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
> >an MFM/RLL
>
> Your dealer is confused. Or more likely he didn't have an answer and
> made one up to suit whatever he wanted to sell you.
You know, I saw this message last night, and was instantly
horrified beyond belief.
I wanted to post a reply, but better judgement prevailed and
I decided to stay out of this one. Anyone who is THAT naive
is too dangerous to help.
But now, I'm more curious than anything else.
Douglas, I don't understand what you are doing. You've had
a number of people here giving you information needed to solve
your problem. We've taken the time to look up specifications,
and even sellers on eBay who have what you need. I even
posted some links that you could follow, to make things
easier. And yet you turn to a seller on eBay for information,
and when that person gives you the wrong info, you decide to
believe it over what we've been telling you?
This just doesn't make any sense. Trying to help you
appears to have been a waste of money, brains, and time.
-Frank
Frank Zsitvay
In a previous message, I wrote:
> > On 21 Jun 2002 06:06:19 -0700, dug...@msn.com (Douglas) wrote:
> > >
> > >With some much needed help from a vintage pc dealer on ebay, the
> > >seagate st351a/x is reall a RLL drive, no problem using a mfm
> > >controller, such as
> > >western digital wd1002a.
> > >Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
> > >an MFM/RLL
>
> Douglas, I don't understand what you are doing. You've had
> a number of people here giving you information needed to solve
> your problem. We've taken the time to look up specifications,
> and even sellers on eBay who have what you need. I even
> posted some links that you could follow, to make things
> easier. And yet you turn to a seller on eBay for information,
> and when that person gives you the wrong info, you decide to
> believe it over what we've been telling you?
An update on those two auction links I gave you...
=>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2032167006
=>
=> Has a 20 meg drive already, which means it will also have
=> the controller you need. You can add your drive to this to
=> make 60 megs of storage, or just swap yours in for the 40
megs
=> you originally wanted.
That machine sold for $32.50. Figure another $25 or so for
shipping depending on your location, so $57.50 would have
solved your problem and you would have had your existing
machine as a spare, or you could sell it to recoup some money.
=>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2032993814
=>
=> It's a TL/2, so it has the controller built it. Add your
=> hard disk, and you're all set.
The machine didn't get a single bid. Probably because of
the fixed $35 shipping cost quoted by the seller, but even
then, with a combined open big of $4.99 and fixed shipping of
$35.00, $39.99 would have solved your problem. Selling your
existing machine would have recouped some money here as well.
-Frank
Never Mind
>Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
>an MFM/RLL
Since I can change the jumpers to 16 bit, and put it on the IDE
interface of my 1.8 gig Pentium 4, why shouldn't it have been called
an IDE?
And the thought of trying to hook this to an MFM/RLL controller is
hillarious.
Never Mind
>=> Has a 20 meg drive already, which means it will also have
>=> the controller you need. You can add your drive to this to
>=> make 60 megs of storage, or just swap yours in for the 40
>megs
>=> you originally wanted.
The TX probably had an MFM/RLL hard card, so he couldn't have attached
thr Seagate to it. And if it had the IDE hard card, you can't daisy
chain 8 bit IDE drives, so it would have been one or the other.
Frank Zsitvay
Never Mind wrote:
>
> Frank Zsitvay <fr...@rdwarf.com> wrote:
>
> >=> Has a 20 meg drive already, which means it will also have
> >=> the controller you need. You can add your drive to this to
> >=> make 60 megs of storage, or just swap yours in for the 40
> >megs
> >=> you originally wanted.
>
> The TX probably had an MFM/RLL hard card, so he couldn't have attached
> thr Seagate to it.
Only way to find out for sure would be to ask the seller.
Even then, at least it has a hard disk.
> And if it had the IDE hard card, you can't daisy
> chain 8 bit IDE drives, so it would have been one or the other.
That I wasn't aware of.
-Frank
Mike Yetsko
>Radio Shack should have never called this drive a IDE when it's really
>an MFM/RLL
IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics. At least, that's what I
picked up back when they first appeared.
It doesn't matter if the drive is FM, MFM, RLL, or one of the 4 different
popular ESDI standards.
When the drive has the interface for the data incorporated into the
interface, it would seem to me it's IDE. It don't matter WHAT the
recording mechanism is.
In fact, most IDE drives now don't let you know. In fact, most drives
now are what's called ZBR, or Zone Bit Recording. The number of
bits and clock rate VARY by zone. No longed can the user even set
a pre-comp.
While there are a number of 'claims' about IDE, in my opinion, it was
an outgrowth of the 'hard cards' that appeared in the 80's. Cards that
had the driver integrated onto a card. In one case, ONE long PCB
with the drive mounted on it. Then there was a 'split' where the drive
could come off the card with only the 'address decode' portion on
one end and the drive with the control registers on the other. The AT
version of this generally fell into the category of putting JUST the
address decode and bus on the card, and the drive on the other, then
the interface was 'built in' as an IDE. The XT evolution wasn't as
'clean'. The reason PROBABLY being that the AT came with a
'standard' HDC stock. And with code in the BIOS to support it.
The XT had NO BIOS support. The support for the drive was in
a 'POST-installable' ROM, and not 'standardized'.
Mike
Leonard Erickson
wrote:
However, you *can* have both an XT IDE drive *and* an MFM/RLL drive.
I've done it before to get stuff onto the XT IDE drive in my TL/2 from
another system.
I've also had an XT IDE drive using the built-in interface, and second
drive mounted on the AT-IDE to XT card that RS used to sell.