IRIX Install Media on one DVD?

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Rye

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Sep 20, 2002, 2:16:53 PM9/20/02
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I love IRIX. I used to work for SGI. But I am wondering,

Will IRIX 6.5.X (and beyond) be released on a single DVD?

This would totaly be awesome if instead of the many CD's I have, that
I could load, maybe one or two DVD's.

I wouldn't mind upgrading my o2 and newer systems to DVD systems to
facilitate this.

Solaris 9 comes on DVD media, and that makes me want to have IRIX on
DVD media because IRIX is better, anyways! ;-)

In terms of media production costs, it'd be cheaper to have and
ship...

Fingers crossed...... ooh!

John Farnsworth

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Sep 23, 2002, 10:28:42 PM9/23/02
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You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 24, 2002, 12:00:03 AM9/24/02
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John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
> You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
> bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.

SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.

As for shipping the OS on a DVD, yes it would be nice, but if it happens
it wont be for a while yet. 6.5.18 will be the first version of IRIX
to support UDF (the DVD filesystem) and even then there will probably
be lots of discussion about the economics of switching over and having
to support two different types of media, etc...

Ivan

> On 20 Sep 2002, Rye wrote:
>> I love IRIX. I used to work for SGI. But I am wondering,
>>
>> Will IRIX 6.5.X (and beyond) be released on a single DVD?
>>
>> This would totaly be awesome if instead of the many CD's I have, that
>> I could load, maybe one or two DVD's.
>>
>> I wouldn't mind upgrading my o2 and newer systems to DVD systems to
>> facilitate this.
>>
>> Solaris 9 comes on DVD media, and that makes me want to have IRIX on
>> DVD media because IRIX is better, anyways! ;-)
>>
>> In terms of media production costs, it'd be cheaper to have and
>> ship...
>>
>> Fingers crossed...... ooh!


--
Ivan Rayner
iv...@sgi.com

Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler

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Sep 24, 2002, 12:31:55 AM9/24/02
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In article <slrnaovoqt...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>, Ivan Rayner
<iv...@sgi.com> wrote:

: John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
: > You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
: > bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.
:
: SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.
:
: As for shipping the OS on a DVD, yes it would be nice, but if it happens
: it wont be for a while yet. 6.5.18 will be the first version of IRIX
: to support UDF (the DVD filesystem) and even then there will probably
: be lots of discussion about the economics of switching over and having
: to support two different types of media, etc...

[...]

I'm pretty sure you can put ISO9660 filesystems on DVD media.


Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)

--
Tony "Nicoya" Mantler - Renaissance Nerd Extraordinaire - nic...@apia.dhs.org
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada -- http://nicoya.feline.pp.se/

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 24, 2002, 1:01:26 AM9/24/02
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <nic...@apia.dhs.org> wrote:
> In article <slrnaovoqt...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>, Ivan Rayner
><iv...@sgi.com> wrote:
>
>: John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
>: > You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
>: > bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.
>:
>: SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.
>:
>: As for shipping the OS on a DVD, yes it would be nice, but if it happens
>: it wont be for a while yet. 6.5.18 will be the first version of IRIX
>: to support UDF (the DVD filesystem) and even then there will probably
>: be lots of discussion about the economics of switching over and having
>: to support two different types of media, etc...
> [...]
>
> I'm pretty sure you can put ISO9660 filesystems on DVD media.

Yes, of course you can. However, the IRIX ISO9660 implementation was
done as a user mode NFS2 server and NFS aint available in the
miniroot, therefore no ISO9660 in the miniroot. In addition, the
implementation has an inherent 2GB filesystem size limit which is not a
problem for CDs but is a bit annoying for DVDs.

Ivan
--
Ivan Rayner
iv...@sgi.com

No Spam

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Sep 24, 2002, 3:20:34 AM9/24/02
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Ivan Rayner wrote:

> John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
>
>>You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
>>bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.
>>
>
> SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.
>
> As for shipping the OS on a DVD, yes it would be nice, but if it happens
> it wont be for a while yet. 6.5.18 will be the first version of IRIX
> to support UDF (the DVD filesystem) and even then there will probably
> be lots of discussion about the economics of switching over and having
> to support two different types of media, etc...


Any idea which DVD drives might be supported on an Octane?
My SGI CD-ROM drive died after reading only a few CDs, and
I'm looking for a replacement of some kind (if anyone has
any good CD-RW recommendations, that would be cool too.)

-Steve

Ingmar Hupp

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Sep 24, 2002, 3:39:14 AM9/24/02
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In article <3D9011...@spam.no>, No Spam wrote:
>> SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.
>
> Any idea which DVD drives might be supported on an Octane?

Toshiba. There shouldn't be too many SCSI-DVD-ROMs of that kind :)

--
Spammers should identify themselves by also using hyper-n...@ybmoz.net

Emmanuel Florac

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Sep 24, 2002, 5:01:57 AM9/24/02
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Dans l'article <slrnaovsdt...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>,
iv...@sgi.com disait...

> In addition, the
> implementation has an inherent 2GB filesystem size limit which is not a
> problem for CDs but is a bit annoying for DVDs.
>


Then there's still the possibility to use a XFS fs on DVDs...

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emmanuel Florac | Kreode technologies
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 25, 2002, 12:52:00 AM9/25/02
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Emmanuel Florac <efl...@imaginet.fr> wrote:
> Dans l'article <slrnaovsdt...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>,
> iv...@sgi.com disait...
>> In addition, the
>> implementation has an inherent 2GB filesystem size limit which is not a
>> problem for CDs but is a bit annoying for DVDs.
>
> Then there's still the possibility to use a XFS fs on DVDs...

Jeez, wish I'd thought of that before spending 4 months working on UDF!

Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler

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Sep 25, 2002, 1:09:05 AM9/25/02
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In article <slrnap2g89...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>, Ivan Rayner
<iv...@sgi.com> wrote:

Not to say that UDF support is a *bad* thing, of course. :)

Certainly it's quite a useful cross-platform filesystem.

Emmanuel Florac

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Sep 25, 2002, 6:05:52 AM9/25/02
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Dans l'article <slrnap2g89...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>,
iv...@sgi.com disait...

> >
> > Then there's still the possibility to use a XFS fs on DVDs...
>
> Jeez, wish I'd thought of that before spending 4 months working on UDF!
>

Actually many movies DVD seems to be iso9660 instead of UDF.

michell

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Sep 25, 2002, 10:38:50 AM9/25/02
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Emmanuel Florac wrote:
> Actually many movies DVD seems to be iso9660 instead of UDF.

where 'seems' is the keyword.


Ivan Rayner

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Sep 26, 2002, 9:07:44 PM9/26/02
to

Just to elaborate. Many commercial DVDs have an ISO9660 filesystem as
well as a UDF filesystem. This doesn't help much for IRIX due to our
2GB ISO9660 limit.

Another example: when you create a packet-written UDF CD-RW with
DirectCD, it will create an ISO9660 filesystem as well which contains
software for older versions of Windows to read UDF (well, at least
that's what I'm guessing it is).

This was one of the issues we had to deal with in IRIX. Mediad would
try to mount a DVD as ISO9660 before UDF, so we had to enforce an
ordering of filesystems in mediad.

James Holden

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Sep 27, 2002, 10:06:42 AM9/27/02
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <nic...@apia.dhs.org> wrote in message news:<nicoya-248143....@shawnews.wp.shawcable.net>...

> In article <slrnaovoqt...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>, Ivan Rayner
> <iv...@sgi.com> wrote:
>
> : John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
> : > You'll get no argument from me on it. The question is where do you find a
> : > bootable SCSI DVD drive? And by bootable, I mean SGI bootable.
> :
> : SGI now ships DVD drives in O2+s and as the external drive for Octane2s.
> :
> : As for shipping the OS on a DVD, yes it would be nice, but if it happens
> : it wont be for a while yet. 6.5.18 will be the first version of IRIX
> : to support UDF (the DVD filesystem) and even then there will probably
> : be lots of discussion about the economics of switching over and having
> : to support two different types of media, etc...
> [...]
>
> I'm pretty sure you can put ISO9660 filesystems on DVD media.
>
>
> Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)

Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.

James

J.A. Gutierrez

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Sep 30, 2002, 6:25:54 AM9/30/02
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James Holden <ja...@jamesholden.co.uk> wrote:

: Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put


: the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.

not sure if it can be done; but what about a DVD with a
small EFS partition for booting and another one UDF for
the packages and data?.

--
PGP and other useless info at \
http://www.cps.unizar.es/~spd/ \
finger://daphne.cps.unizar.es/spd \ Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes
ftp://ivo.cps.unizar.es/pub/ \ (Virgilio)

John Farnsworth

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Sep 30, 2002, 7:12:30 AM9/30/02
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On 30 Sep 2002, J.A. Gutierrez wrote:

> James Holden <ja...@jamesholden.co.uk> wrote:
>
> : Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
> : the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.
>
> not sure if it can be done; but what about a DVD with a
> small EFS partition for booting and another one UDF for
> the packages and data?.

A very good idea in theory, the question is how would non EFS-speaking
systems handle the disc at this point. If it can be done and they'll
still pick up the UDF system, all would be happy. I sense the possibility
that many systems would pick up the EFS partition and say the disc is
junk, however. Similar to how all the lovely Audio CD copy protection
schemes work.

Thomas Jahns

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Sep 30, 2002, 6:12:20 PM9/30/02
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ja...@jamesholden.co.uk (James Holden) writes:
> Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
> the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.

Just to contribute my 2¢:

The SGI PROM does not even read EFS, it can read (and load from) the
volume header, which has a very simple filesystem. Any more elaborate
filesystem interpretation is done by sash (which could be expanded to
read UDF, but as has been pointed out, one could just as well use XFS
or EFS for DVDs).

AFAIK DVDs are just (well mostly, but for this discussion at least
similar enough to) huge CD-ROMs from a software point of view, unless
there is also CSS encryption active. I can see no reason why these
could not be mastered with an EFS+vh-image. Any comments? I'd like to
hear more about this issue.

Has anyone ever tried to create such a DVD? It should be possible, I
could even make an image for this purpose, but lack a DVD burner.

Thomas Jahns
--
"Computers are good at following instructions,
but not at reading your mind."
D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 30, 2002, 7:13:13 PM9/30/02
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John Farnsworth <s...@challenger.darkness.nu> wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2002, J.A. Gutierrez wrote:
>
>> James Holden <ja...@jamesholden.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> : Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
>> : the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.
>>
>> not sure if it can be done; but what about a DVD with a
>> small EFS partition for booting and another one UDF for
>> the packages and data?.
>
> A very good idea in theory, the question is how would non EFS-speaking
> systems handle the disc at this point. If it can be done and they'll
> still pick up the UDF system, all would be happy. I sense the possibility
> that many systems would pick up the EFS partition and say the disc is
> junk, however. Similar to how all the lovely Audio CD copy protection
> schemes work.

I think the idea of partitions for EFS and UDF would work. At the
moment EFS CDs get a volume header, and the EFS filesystem is already
actually in a partition. It would be simple, probably, to put the
installation tools in the EFS partition, and once the miniroot is
running, the much larger UDF partition could be accessed.

Of course, this may be incompatible with most other UDF
implementations, but that probably wouldn't be SGI's main concern over
compatibility. Those wanting to export the DVD rom Linux may possibly
still be able to. Linux supports SGI's volume header, EFS and UDF. It
would only be a matter of mounting UDF from an SGI partition rather
than from the entire volume.

While there would be some juicy technical problems to deal with, I
think the main problem for SGI will be the economics of supporting two
different types installation media. 'Course I'm just an engineer and
therefore don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 30, 2002, 7:23:43 PM9/30/02
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Thomas Jahns <Thomas...@epost.de> wrote:
> ja...@jamesholden.co.uk (James Holden) writes:
>> Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
>> the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.
>
> Just to contribute my 2¢:
>
> The SGI PROM does not even read EFS, it can read (and load from) the
> volume header, which has a very simple filesystem. Any more elaborate
> filesystem interpretation is done by sash (which could be expanded to
> read UDF, but as has been pointed out, one could just as well use XFS
> or EFS for DVDs).

Can't use XFS quite at the moment. Apparently some changes would need to
be made to the xfs log and the user commands -- probably to remove the log
altogether. However, there simply wouldn't be any point to this when EFS
and UDF are available.

> AFAIK DVDs are just (well mostly, but for this discussion at least
> similar enough to) huge CD-ROMs from a software point of view, unless
> there is also CSS encryption active. I can see no reason why these
> could not be mastered with an EFS+vh-image. Any comments? I'd like to
> hear more about this issue.
>
> Has anyone ever tried to create such a DVD? It should be possible, I
> could even make an image for this purpose, but lack a DVD burner.

Sounds reasonable. I have a DVD-RAM, but lack the desire. :)

Walter Roberson

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Sep 30, 2002, 8:09:48 PM9/30/02
to
In article <m3u1k7n...@ID-48333.user.dfncis.de>,
Thomas Jahns <Thomas...@epost.de> wrote:
:The SGI PROM does not even read EFS, it can read (and load from) the

:volume header, which has a very simple filesystem. Any more elaborate
:filesystem interpretation is done by sash (which could be expanded to
:read UDF, but as has been pointed out, one could just as well use XFS
:or EFS for DVDs).

I found the UDF 2.0 standards at
http://trylinux.com/projects/udf/docs/udf200.pdf

Multi-volume support is optional in UDF 2.0.

The volume descriptor must be recorded at two of: sector 256,
N-256, or N, where N is the last addressible sector of the volume.

"The first 32768 bytes of the Volume space shall not be used
for the recording of ECMA 167 structures. This area shall
not be referenced by the Unallocated Space Descritptor or
any other ECMA 167 descriptor. This is intended for use
by the native operating system."


According to /usr/include/sys/dvh.h the default volhdr size is 4096 blocks.


Without having investigated too carefully, this appears to me to indicate
that a DVD could be written that had an IRIX partition table [block 0]
and a non-default volhdr size. Unfortunately, sash requires more than
32Kb (it's about 335 Kb). It's too much for me to parse in a short time
to figure out how far one can extend the OS-specific data -- there's that
reference to block 256, but that's optional; I haven't read through
ECMA 167 to know about other anchored locations. SGI's volume directory
can't just skip around block 256 as sash and so on are read relative to
partition 8 (the volume header) so if you try to put sash into a different
partition then it isn't going to be readable...
--
"The human genome is powerless in the face of chocolate."
-- Dr. Adam Drewnowski

Ivan Rayner

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Sep 30, 2002, 11:50:35 PM9/30/02
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Walter Roberson <robe...@ibd.nrc.ca> wrote:
> I found the UDF 2.0 standards at
> http://trylinux.com/projects/udf/docs/udf200.pdf

The home of the UDF specs is at www.osta.org, and the ECMA-167 spec can
be found at www.ecma.ch. (There's also an ISO spec which is the same
as ECMA-167, but of course that'll cost money.)

> Multi-volume support is optional in UDF 2.0.

Yes, and not supported under IRIX 6.5.18.

UDF contains information for the filesystem, partitons and logical
volumes. Integrating all this naturally into IRIX, where partitions
and logical volumes would have devices which could be individually
mounted, and where UDF could cooexist with SGI's volume header and
other filesystems, was going to be very ugly or too much work. So, we
decided to treat UDF simply as a filesystem, and while we don't support
more than one partition there is no problem. If we ever do support
more than one partition, then we'll probably just add some options to
mount.

We've yet to come across a UDF filesystem with more than one partition,
let alone a logical volume, so this feature wasn't deemed a high
priority.

Not that this matters at all for the current discussion...

> The volume descriptor must be recorded at two of: sector 256,
> N-256, or N, where N is the last addressible sector of the volume.

The "volume descriptor" is actually the Anchor. It simply contains
enough information to point you towards the Volume Descriptor Sequences
(which contain lots of information about the disk, including a pointer
to the root directory descriptor).

The anchor can also be at sector 512, and also, in theory, every
x-number of sectors throughout the disk (where x is a number I cannot
remember). Also, typically, the main UDF partition is from sector 257
to N-(1 or 2). The sectors between 0 and 255 would contain the Volume
Descriptor Sequences. And btw, we're talking about 2KB sectors here,
not 512B blocks.

> Without having investigated too carefully, this appears to me to indicate
> that a DVD could be written that had an IRIX partition table [block 0]
> and a non-default volhdr size. Unfortunately, sash requires more than
> 32Kb (it's about 335 Kb). It's too much for me to parse in a short time
> to figure out how far one can extend the OS-specific data -- there's that
> reference to block 256, but that's optional; I haven't read through
> ECMA 167 to know about other anchored locations. SGI's volume directory
> can't just skip around block 256 as sash and so on are read relative to
> partition 8 (the volume header) so if you try to put sash into a different
> partition then it isn't going to be readable...

At the moment, there's no reason why a UDF filesystem couldn't be
contained within an SGI partition. I think trying to mix the VH and
EFS with UDF, while it may be possible, is simply not worth the
effort.

Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler

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Oct 1, 2002, 12:17:49 AM10/1/02
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In article <slrnapi6t3...@omen.melbourne.sgi.com>, Ivan Rayner
<iv...@sgi.com> wrote:

: At the moment, there's no reason why a UDF filesystem couldn't be


: contained within an SGI partition. I think trying to mix the VH and
: EFS with UDF, while it may be possible, is simply not worth the
: effort.

Why not leave the InstallTools/Patches on CDs, and put all the rest (foundation
1/2, documentation, et al) on DVD?

No fussing with 'how do we make it boot', and you don't have to remaster it for
new machines.


Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)

--

James Holden

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Oct 2, 2002, 4:09:22 AM10/2/02
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Thomas Jahns <Thomas...@epost.de> wrote in message news:<m3u1k7n...@ID-48333.user.dfncis.de>...

> ja...@jamesholden.co.uk (James Holden) writes:
> > Yeah.... but the PROM only understands EFS. Of course, you could put
> > the DVD into another machine and set it up as a netboot server.
>
> Just to contribute my 2¢:
>
> The SGI PROM does not even read EFS, it can read (and load from) the
> volume header, which has a very simple filesystem. Any more elaborate
> filesystem interpretation is done by sash (which could be expanded to
> read UDF, but as has been pointed out, one could just as well use XFS
> or EFS for DVDs).
[snip]
Oops, yes - you're quite correct. Maybe it could be done then. Perhaps
in that case it could be fully backwards compatible then,
independantly of the PROM code.

james

> Thomas Jahns

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