VNC, No Matching Security Types

[Jon Pennington]

I have a Pi 3B, fresh install of Bookworm aarch64. I have installed only a few packages, nothing network related. I updated the index, upgraded all stock packages, and enabled VNC. Bonjour doesn't work this time, but I'm used to that being a crapshoot. I did reboot after the last raspi-config session. Network is good, ssh works (even -Y), vnc is running:

jon@penguin:~$ nmap 192.168.1.128
Starting Nmap 7.80 ( https://nmap.org ) at 2023-11-15 12:41 CST
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.128
Host is up (0.063s latency).
Not shown: 997 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE
22/tcp open ssh
53/tcp open domain
5900/tcp open vnc

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 1.32 seconds


My client is a Chromebook (penguin), but it's also Arm (also aarch64), so my software selection is very limited. I have TigerVNC, and I have Remmina, but I can't install much more than that easily:

jon@penguin:~$ uname -a
Linux penguin 5.15.130-20472-g682e24dd583b #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Oct 25 18:25:04 PDT 2023 aarch64 GNU/Linux

When I try TigerVNC, I leave encryption enabled, allow None, allow TLS with anonymous certificates, disable X509 certificates (also tried allowing X509). Authentication allows None, Standard VNC, or user/pass. When I try to connect, TigerVNC reports "[ ! ] No matching security types." Remina with similar options will error and quit with "Unknown authentication scheme from VNC server: 13,5 [ Close ]."

I've read enough to know that the VNC backend on Bookworm doesn't match most of the HOWTOs online, but I'm still lost. Which switch did I forget to flip? Do I need to manually do some key generate/exchange somewhere? I'm running headless, but I do know that X applications run fine over SSH on my Chromebook display, they're just slooooow. Remina also supports RDP, but I haven't explored that option yet.

[mm0fmf]

On 15/11/2023 19:07, Jon Pennington wrote:
> No matching security types

Did you Google for "Tigervnc no matching security types"? You didn't say
you had and found no fixes.

Does this fix it?

https://superuser.com/questions/1194583/tigervnc-viewer-no-matching-security-types

[Jon Pennington]

I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.

Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it doesn't look like it.

[56d.1152]

VNC is a bit hard to secure. Some, like TightVNC, only allow
a very short password ... 8 characters, in Linux anyhow. The
ports are Well Known and there's nothing inherent to discourage
automated attacks.

(TightVNC *is* good because it very easily lets you create
independent "screens/environments" rather than just being
an echo of what the main user sees)

The Solution is to use VNC-Over-SSH ... well-documented for Linux
(though a bit of a pain via Winders). A secure "tunnel" is created.
Also NEVER expose the standard ports to The World ... use odd ports
and NAT redirects on yer router.

Alas NO remote-access tech seems super-duper "secure", no matter
how much you pay for it. Remember the SolarWinds debacle of just
a couple years ago. If you don't HAVE to have remote access
then DON'T.

As for BookWorm ... all in all THAT seems to work like always.
However I'd suggest dropping the VNC used by the PI and add
something else ... just so no secret "helpful shortcuts" remain.
Tight works well, be aware that Tiger can alter some kinda
unexpected files in /etc which prevent OTHER VNCs from
working properly. I found repair docs, but it wasn't so
easy/obvious. For now I only use Tight, but there are
several alternatives to Tiger.

BookWorm has proven to be the "Vista" of the LiniVerse.
I don't like it. Too many STUPID changes to no good
rational purpose.

[Jon Pennington]

Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

[NY]

"Jon Pennington" <actu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b0f9dd01-2177-4911...@googlegroups.com...

I configured the Real VNC server that is bundled into RasPiOS and can access
it from Real VNC client on Windows (7 and 10) and on Android 13. I didn't
need to configure anything non-standard - it "just worked".

The information at the Android client for the connection to my Pi says
"128-bit AES encryption", "JRLE encoding" and an estimated speed of 5.2
Mb/sec for a direct IP-to-IP (ie non-cloud) connection - because the server
on the Pi allows direct connections in addition to cloud connections via
RealVNCs servers.

[mm0fmf]

On 16/11/2023 05:30, Jon Pennington wrote:
> I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.
>
> Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it doesn't look like it.
>

Sorry for appearing daft, but if you only have TigerVNC viewer have you
tried installing Tigervnc server on the Pi?

[Knute Johnson]

Just to throw a wrinkle into everything, the latest version of RealVNC
viewer, 7.8.0, will connect to a Pi4 running wayvnc. I expect it will
work with a Pi5 too.

--

Knute Johnson

[56d.1152]

I think Tiger or something IS pre-installed on PIs - but
you have to use raspi-config or the GUI one to ENABLE it.

Alas Tiger has a rep for altering some low-level, poorly
documented, config files that PREVENTS some other kinds
of VNC from working ... so I'd suggest immediately installing
Tight or something else. If you install then you don't
have to use raspi-config, it's just THERE. 'vncpasswd'
to set the pass and you're basically done. Just put like
"vncserver :3 -geometry 1200x760" or nearabouts into
an autostart file, .profile SOMETIMES works.

I did this three times just last week.

Not sure why the poster is complaining about "having" to
use VNC. It's a fair remote-desktop system ... the weak
bit being that some have only 8-character passwords.
The BEST way to use it is to also enable SSH on the PI
and then use an "SSH tunnel" for VNC. This IS secure.
Docs abound. It's a weird, but not TOO long, command
line ... I just put 'em in bash scripts.

"Tight" is nice because you can have it reflected on
the dest screen OR create one or more screens the
PI user never even sees (and are maybe outside what
script-kiddie hacks will bother probing).

[Theo]

Jon Pennington <actu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
> if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
> another console.

VNC has always worked for me with SSH forwarding, without using TLS:

$ vncpasswd
- set a password for the VNC session

$ vncserver -geometry 1920x1080 :1
- starts a VNC server on display :1, ie localhost port 5901

Then on your PC:
$ ssh -L 5901:localhost:5901 p...@192.168.1.99

to login to your Pi, and tunnel port 5901 on the Pi to port 5901 on the
local machine.

Then start your VNC client and connect to the VNC server on localhost:1

If you get a blank screen with no apps, you may need to start the desktop.
In the SSH session:

$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ startx &

You can also run X apps 'by hand', eg a terminal and window manager:

$ sudo apt install fvwm
$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ xterm &
$ fvwm &

(~/.vncsession is the place to put commands to run each time you open a new
vnc session)

> Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through
> SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

They are different. VNC is a pixel-based sharing protocol, ie it renders
things on the Pi and pushes blocks of pixels to the PC. With X, everything
is rendered on the PC - lines, fonts, etc. VNC speed depends on network
bandwidth and compression speed, but X is constrained by latency (lots of
messages flying back and forth).

X is slow if your latency is bad (eg over the internet). Protocols like
X2go and NX can speed it up because they reduce the number of roundtrips and
hence their impact on latency.

ssh -C can compress any data stream that passes through it, including VNC
traffic on a forwarded port, but the VNC traffic is already compressed by
VNC so there's not much point.

Theo

[56d.1153]

On 11/16/23 12:12 PM, Jon Pennington wrote:
> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

Look, "it depends".

If you work in a small, known, local, environment - esp
if you are the only tech-savvy person there - then you
CAN almost forget "security". I've done the same more than
once ... but neither VNC or SSH are run on 'standard' ports,
just in case. Oh, there are a few easy SSH settings that
sabotage brute-force hacks.

As for VNC "tunnels" through SSH - no it's NOT faster, but
it's not terribly slower either. I'd rec doing it, Just Because.
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.

[56d.1153]

On 11/17/23 10:40 AM, NY wrote:
> "Jon Pennington" <actu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0f9dd01-2177-4911...@googlegroups.com...
>> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication
>> off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics,
>> from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes
>> it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and
>> extra CPU load.
>
>
> I configured the Real VNC server that is bundled into RasPiOS and can
> access it from Real VNC client on Windows (7 and 10) and on Android 13.
> I didn't need to configure anything non-standard - it "just worked".

Yep - it's wonderful (given previous years/decades).

I generally prefer "Tight" though because you can set
up so many virtual screens so easily. The downside,
unless they've recently changed, is kinda crappy
stream/creds encryption in Linux/Unix. If using Tight,
I still suggest SSH tunnels.

> The information at the Android client for the connection to my Pi says
> "128-bit AES encryption", "JRLE encoding" and a

n estimated speed of 5.2
> Mb/sec for a direct IP-to-IP (ie non-cloud) connection - because the
> server on the Pi allows direct connections in addition to cloud
> connections via RealVNCs servers.

AES-128 is still considered "pretty good". There ARE cracks,
but they're still computing-intensive so unless you're the
CIA or Bank Of America, not worth the effort. I use AES-128
for stuff stored on "the cloud" because it's faster, and feel
quite secure. The cloud owners ain't gonna get SHIT to sell.

Now I'm retiring. The New Guy seems to TRUST M$ and others
who offer cloud services/storage. It's a mistake, but
management has drifted towards Dilbert-ism. He's far better
than me at "modern services" fer sure, but he's not a
programmer, never deals with "system level" stuff, can't
cope with Linux/Unix stuff. It's a much more "shallow"
level of expertise. If MY info gets compromised I *will*
be suing. Good post-retirement income source dontchaknow :-)

I'm very old school, PDP-11/punchcard/VIC-20 era ... something
odd needed, WRITE IT YOURSELF. Modern = BUY SOMEONE ELSE'S
expen$ive "solution" and PRETEND as hard as you can ............

[56d.1153]

Don't be so quick to cuss X11.

Yep, it DOES have some serious inefficiencies, but
its ultra-compatible and very "complete".

Leave Wayland for the "gamers".

> X is slow if your latency is bad (eg over the internet). Protocols like
> X2go and NX can speed it up because they reduce the number of roundtrips and
> hence their impact on latency.
>
> ssh -C can compress any data stream that passes through it, including VNC
> traffic on a forwarded port, but the VNC traffic is already compressed by
> VNC so there's not much point.

Compression is only JUST so useful. Confine it to
"from the net" applications. On a local network it
can be slower.

VNC/RDP/etc ... they're usually intended for "convenience",
not "top performance".

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.

Not in my home they are not :-)

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

[56g.1173]

On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
>> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
>
> Not in my home they are not :-)

Wait until you have plumbing problems !

[The Natural Philosopher]

Frankly, Plumbers are unobtanium and I installed and service my own
plumbing.

Did have a sweep in a few weeks ago, and a boiler service man, but he
didn't fix the aga either.

No one wants to do repair work anymore. They want to make shitloads
installing wanky new boilers and the like.


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

[56g.1173]

On 11/25/23 4:21 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/11/2023 01:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>> On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
>>>> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
>>>
>>> Not in my home they are not :-)
>>
>>    Wait until you have plumbing problems !
>>
> Frankly, Plumbers are unobtanium and I installed and service my own
> plumbing.

Aw, they CAN be had OK ... mine is from an old family-biz.
Fair prices, prompt service, access to commercial-quality
wholesale-only thingies. But yea, that IS unusual these
days ......

MOST are a gigantic rip-off machine.

Alas I've reached an age and condition where there are things
I just *can't* do myself anymore. Finding good proxies is
always a challenge.

> Did have a sweep in a few weeks ago, and a boiler service man, but he
> didn't fix the aga either.

Have one relative in the fix-it biz. He's been useful
now and again - esp in finding parts for old equipment.

> No one wants to do repair work anymore. They want to make shitloads
> installing wanky new boilers and the like.

Most all new equipment is "wanky" these days. Cheap-ass
shit that won't last very long - and the warrantee never
QUITE covers what your problems may be.

Appliances made in the 50s/60s are still your best bet.
Not too long ago I popped into a roadside store/fuel
station out in the USA country - they had an antique
refrigerator, the kind with the big circular coil on
top - AND IT WAS STILL WORKING. Probably made 1925 or
so. Likely not the best in "energy-efficiency", but the
money saved in DURABILITY more than made up for that.

Something like :
https://discover.hubpages.com/living/GE-MONITOR-TOP-REFRIGERATOR-The-Most-Recognized-Vintage-Refrigerator

In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
https://carolinasantiqueappliances.com/Web/
or
https://www.unlimitedappliances.com/products/antique/

Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point :-)

[56g.1173]

On 11/17/23 6:42 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
> Just to throw a wrinkle into everything, the latest version of RealVNC
> viewer, 7.8.0, will connect to a Pi4 running wayvnc.  I expect it will
> work with a Pi5 too.
>

Good 2 know.

VNC still has a very useful place. It's NOT so great
for external access, but for administering LOCAL stuff
it's the quick cheap EZ solution.

For external, "SSH tunnel".

I still like "Tight" because it's so EZ to
set up multiple virtual consoles.

[David Taylor]

On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :

[]
> Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂

Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
--
Cheers,
David
Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

[56g.1173]

On 11/26/23 12:53 AM, David Taylor wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>    In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>    will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
> []
>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>
> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.

Um ... so SURE of that ? :-)

The EU/UK is far more receptive to the "Greta View".

Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?

In truth a LARGE amount of energy, and CO2, has to
be dedicated to making something even as basic as
a stove or laundry washer.

Those 50s/60s construction standards - which leaned
heavily towards "durability" - may not be so archaic
as they seem.

But then none of this has anything to do with rPIs ...

Though they ARE "durable" - still getting good use
out of a few 1st-gen PIs .....

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>    In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>    will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
> []
>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>
> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.

No it isn't.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?

Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
can find and afford.

Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
(except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
been used.

The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
> "56g.1173" <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>
> Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
> can find and afford.
>
> Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
> been used.
>
> The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
>

It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out PICO
PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?

To call out an engineer to fix a $300 washing machine will likely be
$300 parts and labour.

You might as well buy a new one .

If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to pay
$1000 instead.

It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off an
automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that part.
IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled labour
market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine loom
destroyed craft weaving.

We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South
America.

The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.

Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.

I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
even returns my calls to fix it.

Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
to find that it had coked up *again* due to utterly shit fuel mandated
by the EU for 'low sulphur'...

Luckily I now have that down to less than an hour as I bought all the
right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
smash out all the carbon.

These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
Ali Express. Ore Amazon.

No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.

PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller with wifi thermostats
went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth more on ebay
than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all who helped make
it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are still logical bugs in
the (heater) programming which I will attend in due course, but in terms
of doing the switching at the right times and temperatures it is simply
awesome. So its onto project server, which is the Pi 4B, which is having
its 3D case designed...and then project oil level sensor, but that can
wait...


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

[56g.1173]

On 11/26/23 6:02 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
> "56g.1173" <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>
> Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
> can find and afford.
>
> Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
> been used.

Hmmm ... wonder if 3-D printing might solve some of
those problems ? So long as you have the measurements
or specs ...

> The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).

Sealed bearings CAN be a good idea, assuming you've
sealed something GOOD. Alas that's not always the
case. Trends have always been towards (and even Henry
Ford was guilty) making parts *just* good-enough for
the projected/desired lifespan.

[56g.1173]

Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
bad things can result.

Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
miss a vent tube somewhere ?

Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
every week there's a news story of something burning
down or entire homes exploding into splinters.

I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street. That was just an unthinkable expense
and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
require electricity and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.

> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
> Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>
> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.

Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove :-)

Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.

> PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller  with wifi thermostats
> went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth more on ebay
> than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all who helped make
> it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are still logical bugs in
> the (heater) programming which I will attend in due course, but in terms
> of doing the switching at the right times and temperatures it is simply
> awesome. So its onto project server, which is the Pi 4B, which is having
> its 3D case designed...and then project oil level sensor, but that can
> wait...

Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.

Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
thing Just In Case.

[56g.1173]

On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
>> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>>     In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>>     will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
>> []
>>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>>
>> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
>
> No it isn't.

I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
appliances to go around.

However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".

You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It runs on kerosene

It is literally a large paraffin stove.

heating oil slowly fills a baseplate with concentric rings into which
are alternately placed circular wicks, and cylinders of perforated
metal. The wicks help with lighting - in use the rings are hot enough to
vaporise the kerosene so the fuel burns as a vapor.

If the fuel level is too low the temperature drops and it starts to burn
via the wicks, produces a lot of soot and eventually goes out.

In use the baseplate where there is a pool of hot oil cokes up and
blocks the feed pipe. The hot oil essentially distils into a
vapourisable component and carbon. Fuel has been getting worse and
worse. I originally used to service it every 18 months. This last fuel
seems only to have lasted 3-4 months without coking up and it caused or
exacerbated pother issues. I.e. the stove is equipped with a sort of
carburettor. There is a float valve, and a sliding fuel flow valve which
is comprised of a vertical cylinder inside which another cylinder
slides. The inner cylinder has a slot about 10 thou wide and maybe 3/16"
long, and that slides past a hole in the outer cylinder. That's the fuel
metering - the base of the outer cylinder feed the burner.. Bad
kerosene tends to separate out and fill the slot with a sort of wax,
thereby obstructing fuel flow. I had a succession of problems with
everything.

There are no vent tubes as such

>   Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
>   every week there's a news story of something burning
>   down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
>

I am not keen on it either.
But most of the UK runs on it without dying. Statistically it is less
dangerous than firearms are in the USA. It used to be cheap, but not
anymore. Now kerosene is the cheapest.

>   I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
>   intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
>   somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
>   they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
>   national grid ... right down to the level of every
>   little street.

I was one of those people. No one listened to me. Ive been banging that
drum for over ten years now.

That was just an unthinkable expense
>   and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>   Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
>   require electricity and typically the "used water"
>   is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>

What 'used water' ?

>> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
>> Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>>
>> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
>
>   Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove  :-)
>

But who would accept that? A few years pack I looked inside the
'electronics' part of the local wastes disposal yard as I had some
really old PCS and CRT based TVS to get rid of. It was full of TVs -
most less than 5 years old.

>   Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
>   that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.
>

Yes, in many cases it does. My car features HVAC vents that rotate open
via little servos on startup. The manufacturer expects you to replace
the whole unit doe $250, but some guy on ebay is printing a little
plastic gear that replaces the shit one that always strips, and he sells
4 for £10 .

>> PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller  with wifi
>> thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth
>> more on ebay than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all
>> who helped make it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are
>> still logical bugs in the (heater) programming which I will attend in
>> due course, but in terms of doing the switching at the right times and
>> temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server, which
>> is the Pi 4B, which is having its 3D case designed...and then project
>> oil level sensor, but that can wait...
>
>   Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
>   because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
>   24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
>   probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
>   approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.
>

Oh, we are full on 240VAC here. the 'interesting' wiring is all mine,
from 2001. When I first built the house

>   Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
>   damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
>   into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
>   DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
>   thing Just In Case.

If the wifi goes down that means the power has gone down and the CH wont
work anyway.

I have never had a case of long term wifi failure. A temporary wifi
outage upsets the wifi thermometers though. They need rebooting. Another
slight bug that needs fixing


--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/11/2023 04:18, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>>>     In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>>>     will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
>>> []
>>>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>>>
>>> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
>>
>> No it isn't.
>
>   I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
>   thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
>   oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
>   no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
>   appliances to go around.
>

They did a useful thing in terms of cars, by forcing manufacturers to
release car part specifications to anyone who wanted to manufacture
aftermarket spares. Or third party independent mechanics.

But mostly the EU are owned by large companies, Arab oil interests and
Russian gas interests and the Mafia, similar to the USA.

Which is why we have windmills instead of nuclear power stations. Any
fool can erect a windmill and grab subsidies. And the gas is still
needed when the wind doesn't blow.

>   However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
>   the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
>   want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
>   much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".
>

Actually in many cases they are better.

>   You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
>   controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
>   instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.

Indeed. My latest washing machine is just such a thing. Entirely UK
made. Brushless motor that makes groaning sounds at part throttle.

Slightly cheaper than the Miele brand, but guaranteed the same.

But twice as expensive as some Italian Turkish or Korean crap.

I think that modern technology is enabling craftsmanship at a whole new
level. 3D printing, CNC machining, laser cutting - these are all
technologies that friends have. I can produce a circuit board via China
faster and cheaper than I could punch out an aluminium chassis for
valves (tubes) such as would have been the case in the 1950s. Now I can
even print plastic cases designed to fit them. Or wooden ones for that
retro look.

Its a changing world. Its up to us to try and make sure it doesn't
change too much for whatever we consider to be the 'worse'...

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 22:58:50 -0500, 56g.1173 wrote:

> I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was intent on
> switching everyone to electric - UNTIL somebody actually DID THE
> NUMBERS and they realized they'd have to double or triple the
> capacity of the national grid ... right down to the level of every
> little street. That was just an unthinkable expense and SUDDENLY the
> govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>

...but AFAIK this is almost entirely due to the electricity used to
recharge electric road vehicles and the extra cabling needed to support
350Kw fast chargers in service stations. Not home charging: from what
I've seen in Ars Technica and The Register, existing house wiring is OK
for overnight charges

> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricity
> and typically the "used water"
> is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>

No sir: lots of water is not required: the pumps that are/were being
installed in UK houses as replacements for gas central heating are all
extracting heat from outside air (unless the garden contains a large
enough pond to allow it to be used as the heat source) and using it to
heat the water circulating through radiators and the hot water cylinder.

This water CIRCULATES through the pipes connecting radiators etc, so the
same water is used over and over: such a system doesn't require any water
from outside the house except to deal with leakage from piss poor
installation.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Andy Burns]

Martin Gregorie wrote:

> 56g.1173 wrote:
>
>> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricity
>> and typically the "used water"
>> is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>>
> No sir: lots of water is not required: the pumps that are/were being
> installed in UK houses as replacements for gas central heating are all
> extracting heat from outside air (unless the garden contains a large
> enough pond to allow it to be used as the heat source) and using it to
> heat the water circulating through radiators and the hot water cylinder.
>
> This water CIRCULATES through the pipes connecting radiators etc, so the
> same water is used over and over: such a system doesn't require any water
> from outside the house except to deal with leakage from piss poor
> installation.

Agreed ASHPs don't consume any water, they do produce a small amount of
condensate (as do most gas boilers).

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-11-27, 56g.1173 <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
> every week there's a news story of something burning
> down or entire homes exploding into splinters.

And every day there's a news story of a car wrapping itself
around a telephone pole. I haven't given up driving yet.
We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
with.

> I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
> intent on switching everyone to electric -

The British Columbia provincial government has a wild hair
up its ass and is intent on switching everyone to electric -
to the point where there are rumours about discouraging gas
installations completely in new construction. Mind you,
the government's relation with B.C. Hydro can only be
described as incestuous.

> UNTIL
> somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
> they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
> national grid ... right down to the level of every
> little street. That was just an unthinkable expense
> and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.

Our government never did the numbers - or if they did they're
not saying anything (they're becoming quite secretive about
their machinations, at least until supporting legislation is
in place). But I'm waiting for the brownouts. Sure, there's
the Site C project - behind schedule and 100% over budget and
counting, just like other government projects - but half its
output is earmarked for LNG generation (what, gas again?) and
the other half for sale to California. And they mothballed a
gigawatt gas-fired plant that gave us backup in our back yard.

> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
> require electricity

Oh goody, more sales for Hydro...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 18:10:44 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Our government never did the numbers - or if they did they're
> not saying anything

They asked an economist for them of course:

Q: What is two plus two ?
A(mathematician): Four!
A(physicist): Three point nine plus or minus point three..
A(economist): What would you like it to be?

[56g.1173]

Hmmm ... "Brushless DC" really means "Three Phase". Those
are pretty good, though you need an AC->DC converter and
then a DC->3Ph converter. That's two things that can
burn out.

There are various designs of 1ph->3ph converters,
I've worked with them in the field, but the good ones
have a rather BIG transformer and a cap bank.
(try RONK Industries, one of the few designs that can
put good power into the synthetic phase, but you have
to "tune" the xformer/caps for the particular motor/load)

There are actual "solid state" converters/drivers but
in the end they're AC->DC->3Ph though fairly small and
compact (and $$$). They typically require notably more
input voltage than the voltage output ... so if you're
240v you might have to provide 480v. I seem to remember
ONE that was 240 in/out however.

Lots of water and wet laundry are high mass. Shunt-wound
DC motors have more TORQUE than a 3-ph AC. Alas they also
have brushes that will eventually wear out. EZ to replace,
but still. Also, if rapidly reversing, you'll get a big
voltage spike.

Due to rare-earth magnets, there are designs
based on a wired stator and passive, supermagnet,
rotor. No brushes, but again $$$ for anything of
any size. Samarium magnets are preferable - they
resist demag better and can tolerate more heat
plus are a bit more corrosion-resistant than Neo.
These sorts of motors are sometimes found in
e-vehicle designs.

I've looked into all sorts of motors for light/medium
industrial apps. Alas there are NO perfect solutions,
for ANY app. Always trade-offs. If you want something
kinda weird, try 'written pole' motors :-)

Anyway, for a humble washing machine, "brushless DC" is
maybe the best modern compromise. The motor may be
better than its power/control circuitry though ...

[56g.1173]

Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
of the 3rd world.

> heating oil slowly fills a baseplate with concentric rings into which
> are alternately placed circular wicks, and cylinders of perforated
> metal. The wicks help with lighting - in use the rings are hot enough to
> vaporise the kerosene so the fuel burns as a vapor.

Sounds like the old gasoline "blow torches".

> If the fuel level is too low the temperature drops and it starts to burn
> via the wicks, produces a lot of soot and eventually goes out.
>
> In use the baseplate where there is a pool of hot oil cokes up and
> blocks the feed pipe. The hot oil essentially distils into a
> vapourisable component and carbon. Fuel has been getting worse and
> worse. I originally used to service it every 18 months. This last fuel
> seems only to have lasted 3-4 months without coking up and it caused or
> exacerbated pother issues. I.e. the stove is equipped with a sort of
> carburettor. There is a float valve, and a sliding fuel flow valve which
> is comprised of a vertical cylinder inside which another cylinder
> slides. The inner cylinder has a slot about 10 thou wide and maybe 3/16"
> long, and that slides past a hole in the outer cylinder. That's the fuel
> metering - the base of the outer  cylinder feed the burner.. Bad
> kerosene tends to separate out and fill the slot with a sort of wax,
> thereby obstructing fuel flow. I had a succession of problems with
> everything.
>
> There are no vent tubes as such
>
>
>>    Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
>>    every week there's a news story of something burning
>>    down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
>>
> I am not keen on it either.
> But most of the UK runs on it without dying. Statistically it is less
> dangerous than firearms are in the USA. It used to be cheap, but not
> anymore. Now kerosene is the cheapest.

So long as not too many people demand it.

>>    I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
>>    intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
>>    somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
>>    they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
>>    national grid ... right down to the level of every
>>    little street.
>
> I was one of those people. No one listened to me. Ive been banging that
> drum for over ten years now.
>
>  That was just an unthinkable expense
>>    and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>>    Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
>>    require electricity and typically the "used water"
>>    is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>>
> What 'used water' ?

Heat pumps extract heat from the input water (sometimes air)
to heat, and usually have a reverse mode where the water/air
is heated while cooling the home. Air CAN be used, but ground
water is more efficient and tends to hold a fairly constant
temperature year 'round. Hard to warm a home using air
that's already at freezing.

The water that has passed through, been warmed or cooled,
is the "used water". Gotta DO something with it. COULD
pump it back down, but then you're likely messing with
the source water's temperature.

https://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/heat-pumps/what-is-a-heat-pump-how-does-it-work/

>>> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it
>>> off Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>>>
>>> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
>>
>>    Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove  :-)
>>
> But who would accept that? A few years pack I looked inside the
> 'electronics' part of the local wastes disposal yard as I had some
> really old PCS and CRT based TVS to get rid of. It was full of TVs -
> most less than 5 years old.

Heh, I bought what was the bitter last gen of "giant tube" telly's.
The thing weighed at least 200 pounds. 48" diagonal as best
I remember. Sold it to a guy for dollar and bought a flat screen
that was bigger and weighed about 200 pounds less. Lasted the
guy about another 10 years, so he got a good deal AND was the
one who had to dispose of it :-)

"Tech waste" IS a problem. There are often rather toxic and/or
non-recyclable materials in them. Cadmium, lead and esp mercury
are a big issue. Older stuff is full of PCBs. Basically all
you can do is crush it and throw the bits into a heavily-
lined pit and "let the future deal with it".

Theoretically, nano-bots COULD efficiently collect those
nasty substances from garbage pits ...

>>    Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
>>    that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.
>>
> Yes, in many cases it does. My car features HVAC vents that rotate open
> via little servos on startup. The manufacturer expects you to replace
> the whole unit doe $250, but some guy on ebay is printing a little
> plastic gear that replaces the shit one that always strips, and he sells
> 4 for £10 .

Very clever - and he likely still makes good money from
his replica gears. Even something like the old mechanical/
timer washing-machine controls - most parts really COULD
be 3-D printed now even the metallic bits.

>
>>> PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller  with wifi
>>> thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth
>>> more on ebay than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all
>>> who helped make it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are
>>> still logical bugs in the (heater) programming which I will attend in
>>> due course, but in terms of doing the switching at the right times
>>> and temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server,
>>> which is the Pi 4B, which is having its 3D case designed...and then
>>> project oil level sensor, but that can wait...
>>
>>    Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
>>    because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
>>    24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
>>    probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
>>    approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.
>>
>  Oh, we are full on 240VAC here. the 'interesting' wiring is all mine,
> from 2001. When I first built the house

The thermostat that runs my HVAC has a number of jumpers
inside it. Lets it work with a variety of units. However
it also shows how many ways such units are wired - and
some things have to happen with a certain timing.

>>    Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
>>    damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
>>    into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
>>    DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
>>    thing Just In Case.
>
> If the wifi goes down that means the power has gone down and the CH wont
> work anyway.

Um ... I've had plenty of wi-fi units/repeaters/transponders die
all on their own over the years. Of note I've had THREE Pi3s
where the onboard unit has gone wonky. Maybe I was running it
too hot - or maybe there's just an innate problem.

> I have never had a case of long term wifi failure. A temporary wifi
> outage upsets the wifi thermometers though. They need rebooting. Another
> slight bug that needs fixing

I've had similar issues with wireless cameras - esp ones that
run off a Pi + Motion. The cheap-ass solution is to just use
a crontab entry to restart the Motion daemon every hour or two.
Only takes maybe 10 seconds. "* */1 * * * systemctl restart motion"

Note odd probs with the Motion daemon in Bullseye/Bookworm. Turns
out you need to explicitly enable the daemon and then put the
largely-undocumented "start_motion_daemon=yes" param up near the
top of motion.conf ... the old 'daemon on' doesn't have to be there.
Run into this on Pis AND "real PCs". I did tweak the systemd
entry to include restarts on failure, just in case. So far
so good.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7....@fx18.iad>,

> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
>

> That depends !
>
> If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook with
> glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then you're
> forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those utensils yes,
> gas is better.
>
> But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to say
> induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and far
> easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
> combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
>
> To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&. Just
> that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.

I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
turn down the heat and it stops _now_. I haven't tried induction
heading, though, so I can't say how it compares.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/11/2023 19:38, Bob Latham wrote:
> in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.

I have used all forms of heat for cooking

There is no doubt that open flame gas is best for e,g. wok style flash
frying as the heat goes up the wok sides. It is alṣo very fast acting
and will turn a frying pan into a blast furnace quicker than you can say
"Oh fuck!"

For general domestic use induction is my favourite because its fairly
fast, and easy to clean but even then there isn't much problem for me
with my cast iron hotplate range stove or the two ceramic hobs I have.

FFS on days with power cuts I have made coffee on an open charcoal fire.

There is no 'best' - only 'different'. In practise one adapts one's
cooking styles to what one is forced to use.


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/11/2023 05:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,

> turn down the heat and it stops_now_. I haven't tried induction

> heading, though, so I can't say how it compares.

Its fast.

But so is my range cooker with its cast iron hotplates. you simply take
the saucepan/skillet off the hob!

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/11/2023 04:46, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/27/23 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> It is literally a large paraffin stove.
>
>
>   Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
>   of the 3rd world.
>

They are a hall mark of a certain 'country living' style. In practice a
pretty good room heater that you can also cook on, beloved by wet muddy
dogs. Will work without electricity in the case of power cuts. So ideal
if you are rural with unreliable electricity and no gas. You can get
ones that run on electricity and gas too. But why bother? electricity is
expensive - very expensive and at the moment so too is gas.

https://www.saltirecookers.com/oil-aga-cookers

[Martin Gregorie]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:49:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> There is no 'best' - only 'different'. In practise one adapts one's
> cooking styles to what one is forced to use.
>

Indeed: long ago and far away, four of us spent ten months camping and
doing all our cooking on a two burner petrol-burning Primus: petrol to
match our transport (a petrol-burning long wheelbase Landrover), which
meant that we didn't need to carry kerosene, with its bad tendency of
'flavoring' everything. We cooked in ordinary metal saucepans and frying
pan plus a disk of 3mm mild steel (perfect for making flatbreads).

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Bob Latham to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Nov 28 2023 08:05 am

> I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> parameters, quite the reverse.
>

Induction is awesome and nowadays I would take it rather than gas, but lots of
cooking implements won't work on induction. There is also the fact it is backed
by electricity, so it can get a bit wasteful.

In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved
on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
luxury that people is not treating as such.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

By: The Natural Philosopher to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 07:01 am

> >> It is literally a large paraffin stove.
> >
> >
> >   Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
> >   of the 3rd world.
> >
> They are a hall mark of a certain 'country living' style. In practice a
> pretty good room heater that you can also cook on, beloved by wet muddy
> dogs. Will work without electricity in the case of power cuts. So ideal
> if you are rural with unreliable electricity and no gas. You can get
> ones that run on electricity and gas too. But why bother? electricity is
> expensive - very expensive and at the moment so too is gas.
>
> https://www.saltirecookers.com/oil-aga-cookers
>

That sounds interesting, but when you look for something autonomous like that
you may be better served with something that boils solid fuel.

I can use my fireplace for both heating the home and cooking at the same time,
and if you aren't cooking you may also use lots of residual material as fuel.
You can feed it horse dung, your ex' love letters and mailbox spam if need be.

It is maintenance intensive, though, but also a very economical way of
roasting, frying, baking or grilling, and can be used if electric power is
unavailable. It gets hotter than Árelor's Hell so you need to watch you don't
burn the food.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[Stephen Pelc]

On 27 Nov 2023 at 20:56:50 CET, "Richard Falken" <Richard Falken> wrote

> In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved
> on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
> luxury that people is not treating as such.

Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
as
it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, ste...@vfxforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering, Ltd. - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)78 0390 3612, +34 649 662 974
http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

[David Higton]

In message <EY49N.82391$cAm7....@fx18.iad>

Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
> had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
> and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
> with.

We used gas for decades and were happy with it, but we moved house nearly
7 years ago and with it bought an electric cooker with induction top. We
would not go back to gas - induction is so much nicer to cook with.

More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.

Nitrogen dioxide is a powerful irritant to the lungs.

David

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm

> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>

That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood
stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaínas)

Meybe people around me is just weird :-P

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm

> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>

I looked the stats up.

As per 2019, about half the cooktops in Spain were electric ceramic variety
(vitroceramic), a third were gas. Gas is popular in locations that see sporadic
use (like second residences), remote locations and among poorer or older
people.

Study is behind a paywall. Paywalls, ruining BBS conversation since they were
invented.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[56g.1173]

On 11/28/23 3:05 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <Oye9N.132623$BbXa....@fx16.iad>,

> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7....@fx18.iad>, Charlie Gibbs
>>> <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
>>>
>>> That depends !
>>>
>>> If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook
>>> with glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then
>>> you're forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those
>>> utensils yes, gas is better.
>>>
>>> But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to
>>> say induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and
>>> far easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
>>> combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&.
>>> Just that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical
>>> winner.
>
>> I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
>> turn down the heat and it stops _now_.
>

> It does yes but Induction is also *instant* and it gets water boiling
> a lot faster than gas.

>
>> I haven't tried induction heading, though, so I can't say how it
>> compares.
>

> Yes, I thought that you probably hadn't.

>
> I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> parameters, quite the reverse.

There are potentially competing elements here - "fast",
"cheap", "convenient" and "robust" ... oh, and "safe".

A fireplace or wood/coal stove is "robust" - doesn't
matter if the whole grid disappears (though, to a fair
extent, so will anything to cook). Got a farm ? The
starving masses will take it over ... eat everything,
and then be starving again.

Alas having an actual FIRE inside your house may not
be very "safe".

Gas is fairly efficient and convenient, but suffocation
or explosion is hardly unknown. Depending it may or may
not be "cheap".

Philosopher says he has a KEROSENE stove - and that, for
now, the fuel is cheap. It's still a fire though, and
with liquid fuel that can leak.

Electric resistance stoves are maybe the best compromise,
but electric prices vary by local and if out in the sticks
may not be entirely reliable. Hot elements CAN start
fires too, but less likely than gas/kerosene.

Induction is the latest gimmick - but it still requires
electricity. Haven't experimented with them. What happens
if you, say, leave a fork or bit of tinfoil in range of
the field ? What if you're wearing a metal watch-band
and lean in too close ? What if you have a phone in your
pocket and lean-in too close ???

Solar-reflectors are cheap and safe - but likely a bad
idea for northern Europe/UK. Solar-electric ... big
up-front expense and only semi-"robust" since the cells
degrade. A wood/coal/peat/manure/whatever 'Franklin' stove
can still be working 250 years from now - I've seen it.

So there's no "best" answer. "It depends".

[56g.1173]

I fear a major economic implosion. Covid was
the final straw, but bad bad politics/economics
is speeding that along. The pols will keep the
bread and circuses coming for as long as they
can, no matter the damage, but one day ....

Then your "stove" is an open fire (so long as
there's wood) or maybe an old metal oil drum
with dried whatever in it. Electricity IS a
luxury ... most forget that it's only been
"widespread" for less than 100 years and
requires a lot of industry to KEEP it going.
The "rural USA" wasn't "electrified" until
the latter 1930s, parts of Europe even later.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-11-28, David Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

> In message <EY49N.82391$cAm7....@fx18.iad>
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
>> had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
>> and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
>> with.
>
> We used gas for decades and were happy with it, but we moved house nearly
> 7 years ago and with it bought an electric cooker with induction top. We
> would not go back to gas - induction is so much nicer to cook with.

There were unexpected benefits to us switching in the opposite
direction. A friend had just moved into a house whose stove
was shot, so we gave him our old (but serviceable) electric
(non-induction) stove. In return he gave me an old violin.
And now I'm playing bluegrass fiddle, and viola in an orchestra.
Go figure.

> More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
> in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
> to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
> going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.
>
> Nitrogen dioxide is a powerful irritant to the lungs.

Hmmm, hadn't heard that one. We must have good ventilation.

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

By: 56g.1173 to Richard Falken on Tue Nov 28 2023 10:43 pm

> Then your "stove" is an open fire (so long as
> there's wood) or maybe an old metal oil drum
> with dried whatever in it. Electricity IS a
> luxury ... most forget that it's only been
> "widespread" for less than 100 years and
> requires a lot of industry to KEEP it going.
> The "rural USA" wasn't "electrified" until
> the latter 1930s, parts of Europe even later.

Really, my "stove" in this case is just a fireplace insert with a door you can
close to have the fire enclosed. It has knobs for controlling the oxygen intake
and the draft.

If you need to cook you can let the fire come down to ambers amd then put a
pan, a grill or a pot on it. Since the fire is enclosed, temperature raises
quite fast. In fact its main drawback, after the high maintenance of the setup,
is that there is not much margin of error because you will burn your food in
the blink of an eye if you don't pay attention.

I actually have an electric cooktop in the kitchen, mind you, and I produce my
own electricity. In winter, however, I will use the fireplace in order to spare
the solar batteries the stress, and because the fireplace will be alight
anyway.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/11/2023 04:07, Richard Falken wrote:
> Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
> By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm
>
> > Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> > as
> > it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
> >
>
> That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
> old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood

> stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaínas)

>
> Meybe people around me is just weird :-P
>

It is very regional.

You tend to use whatever is cheap. For the first time in years I can
smell bituminous coal being burnt in open fireplaces.

Because electricity is very expensive and so are gas and oil. And the
price of burnable wood is way up too.

And people have to keep warm.

As far as cooking goes the vast majority here is gas or electric.

Probably as a 50-50 mix. Nearly all ovens are electric. Only gas hobs
are fitted these days.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/11/2023 04:07, Richard Falken wrote:

> Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
> By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm
>
> > Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> > as
> > it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
> >
>
> That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
> old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood

> stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaínas)

>
> Meybe people around me is just weird :-P
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/11/2023 22:21, David Higton wrote:
> More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
> in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
> to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
> going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.

Not only that, but modern airproof insulation has house internal CO2
levels in a range that would make any climate alarmist run screaming for
tranquillizers.

Nitrogen dioxide isn't as bad as its cracked up to be. Like all of these
latter day 'pollutants' its a convenient way to sell newer tech and tax
the public more and increase government control.

The most serious pollution comes from the mass media and government itself.



--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 08:56:32 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Not only that, but modern airproof insulation has house internal CO2
> levels in a range that would make any climate alarmist run screaming for
> tranquillizers.

Insulating and sealing a house up without providing heat exchange
ventilation is daft.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:41:16 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

>
> Insulating and sealing a house up without providing heat exchange
> ventilation is daft.
>

If you want to know more about designing and building energy-efficient
houses, you can do a lot worse than getting a copy of

"The Autonomous House" by Brenda and Robert Vale.

Much of its content is still relevant even though its most recent edition
was published in 1975 while or just after they graduated from Cambridge.

I've used it to work out whether I could power and heat my house from
solar cells and and a solar roof: calculations used methods from the book
showed that it could work apart from hot water in the coldest three months
of winter, but the fact that my town council owns a row of rather large
oaks just beyond the northern side of my garden and, as its a major effort
to get them to do anything to those trees to prevent them shading my
garden, let alone any part of the roof, I gave up on solar energy.

[Martin Gregorie]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:41:16 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

>

> Insulating and sealing a house up without providing heat exchange
> ventilation is daft.
>

[56g.1173]

Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.

I've seen cast-iron versions STILL being useful after
about 200 years. Stainless steel might last 500.

Now ... how to control/monitor a Franklin stove with
a Pi ? :-)

[Richard Falken]

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

By: 56g.1173 to Richard Falken on Wed Nov 29 2023 11:43 pm

> Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
> but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
> to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
>

That one looks great, but it also has to be hard to get started if the chimney
is cold.

THerefore I suggest adding an electric resistence controlled by a raspberry pi
in order to pre-heat the chimney before the actual fire is started.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2023-11-30, 56g.1173 <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
> but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
> to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
>
> I've seen cast-iron versions STILL being useful after
> about 200 years. Stainless steel might last 500.
>
> Now ... how to control/monitor a Franklin stove with
> a Pi ? :-)

Look on the bright side - nobody can hack your stove
and hold your heat for ransom. Or bleed you monthly
with that newfangled HaaS (heat as a service) paradigm.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

[56g.1173]

On 11/29/23 12:52 PM, Richard Falken wrote:
> Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
> By: 56g.1173 to Richard Falken on Wed Nov 29 2023 11:43 pm
>
> > Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
> > but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
> > to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
> >
>
> That one looks great, but it also has to be hard to get started if the chimney
> is cold.

I believe the accepted way is to put little wad of
extra-burney material (cotton/old linen/paper) on
top near the chimney pipe inlet. That gets a draft
started and has relatively clean smoke - and then
the rest of the fuel ignites.

Franklin and Pot-Belly stoves are quite fuel-
efficient and have a nice flat top where you
can cook things. The cast iron construction
retains heat, so you can let the fire safely
go out overnight and still keep a room warm.
The downside is that you have a really hot
chunk of metal where people, esp kids, can bump
up against it. Safety mods are possible though.

> THerefore I suggest adding an electric resistence controlled by a raspberry pi
> in order to pre-heat the chimney before the actual fire is started.

Hmm ... automated fuel delivery ? Servo to push more
wood/coal/whatever in when a cool-off is detected ?
Input airflow modulation ?

[56g.1173]

On 11/30/23 7:09 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-11-30, 56g.1173 <56g....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Do look into the olde-tyme "Franklin Stove". Not "perfect"
>> but simple, versatile and very robust. Add radiator fins
>> to the exhaust duct and you can recover extra heat.
>>
>> I've seen cast-iron versions STILL being useful after
>> about 200 years. Stainless steel might last 500.
>>
>> Now ... how to control/monitor a Franklin stove with
>> a Pi ? :-)
>
> Look on the bright side - nobody can hack your stove
> and hold your heat for ransom. Or bleed you monthly
> with that newfangled HaaS (heat as a service) paradigm.

Careful, they'll start charging for CO2/ash production -
and have aerial/sat maps of where it's is coming from :-)
If a tech CAN be used to rip you off .........

Drones with multi-spectral sensors see ALL.

Now how could a Pi help disguise your waste signature ?

There's also a potential FUEL problem depending on where
you are. A larger city isn't going to have enough wood
for everyone - maybe hardly anyone - and it's worse in
areas with few trees to begin with. I was looking at
sats of Idaho the other day ... mostly just dry kinda
yellow dirt and rock unless you're right next to a
river. Huge areas where there's nothing and nobody.

Oh, check the suburban development model in Idaho ...
most of the cities are 'grey' - and zooming in you
see they are windey suburbs TIGHTLY packed-in with
barely an inch between the standard-sized houses.
Awful !

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 01/12/2023 02:38, 56g.1173 wrote:

>   Hmm ... automated fuel delivery ? Servo to push more
>   wood/coal/whatever in when a cool-off is detected ?
>   Input airflow modulation ?

My Aga has exactly that. There are two paraffin flow rates. A mains
powered LV thermostat heats a wax capsule that expands and selects low
fuel rate when the oven is up to the selected temperature.


--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat