Mystery - rpOS - Browsers Will NOT Display Web iframe Content

[56d.1152]

Basically its simple rotating pages that
show iframes from security cams for x-secs.
The contents are a stream from 'motion'.
Apache2 operates the web pages.

Displays *perfectly* on my (MX) laptop.

But not on rpOS.

Tried the latest Bookworm-derived. Then went back
a step to Bullseye. Chromium shows the border of
the frame, but no content. Firefox just hangs
and you have to pull the plug.

Now if you bring up a motion port DIRECTLY it
displays as expected with a mjpeg stream. But
the web pages, what's needed for the show/wait/next,
a total loss.

Googled. Ducked. Can't even find anything even
kinda-sorta on the subject ... it's always some
esoteric issue and doesn't cover the images not
appearing AT ALL.

Pi3b+

Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
right now.

Heard Pi5 is "coming" ... but 4's and 5s are really
more horsepower than the application needs/deserves.

This smells like some weird OS issue.

[The Natural Philosopher]

You really haven't provided enough information here... like what is the
code the browser is actually running?

And remember a Pi can barely display *one* video stream let alone half a
dozen.
Try a console screen running 'top' and then launch the browsers and see
how much CPU it's chewing.



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

[56d.1152]

Cut it back and back - no webkit scaling or anything - until
it was basically just a page.pgp ... even tried an experimental
page.html. Nada. The frame border at most, no pix.

This shouldn't happen.

As said, on my MX laptop the pages display exactly what they
should, promptly. But on the Pi ........

> And remember a Pi can barely display *one* video stream let alone half a

Yea ... but a p3b+ ain't THAT bad. It's really only
doing ONE thing - I wanna see my cams one after the
other in a loop. Tiny JavaScript bit does the timing,
page1 calls page2 and so forth until page1 comes
around again at the end. That part IS working, but
I just get empty page after empty page.

Have a p4b sporting 'motion', for 7 (low-fps) cams,
and Apache. NOT over-loaded. Kinda impressive.

> Try a console screen running 'top' and then launch the browsers and see
> how much CPU it's chewing.

Did, repeatedly. I know the drill. Apache AND 'motion'
amount to less than 100% of a core. As said, impressive.
Waiting for the promised Pi5s ... did they free themselves
from Chinese suppliers ?

And again, on my laptop everything displays as it
should, promptly. It's NOT the server end.

I could believe a problem with BookWorm - kinda new
and some definite deviations from past versions - but
this persists even with BullsEye.

Do NOT like BookWorm - on a Pi or anything else.
It's making Deb start to stink of Canonical -
too much stuff where it shouldn't be according
to a decade+ of docs ... for NO real gains.

The Pi doesn't even include the Gnome network
tweaker ... you have to find/install on your
own. dhcpcd/wpa-supplicant weren't perfect,
but you knew where you stood and there were
tons of detailed docs. /etc/network/interfaces
was even better, and better documented. They
all worked - why change ? Canonical can do
what idiocies it wants, but Deb should NOT follow.
Keep it simple, consistent.

Using Chromium - has a handy CL options to start
maximized and suppress "improper shutdown" messages.
FireFox is just a disaster here, totally hangs ...

Anyway, interested in whether other people have
seen similar problems - and HOW to fix them.

No, not doing some of those other Linux groups.
Too many assholes now :-)

[Computer Nerd Kev]

56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 10/23/23 11:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> You really haven't provided enough information here... like what is the
>> code the browser is actually running?
>
> Cut it back and back - no webkit scaling or anything - until
> it was basically just a page.pgp ... even tried an experimental
> page.html. Nada. The frame border at most, no pix.

Did you try without the frame, or even loading the video URL
directly? It sounds a lot like the video acceleration problems in
web browsers on the Pi that people have talked about here often in
the past, unless it really only happens when frames are involved.

Personally I don't play video in web browsers anywhere so I can't
help with that, but it might narrow down the issue for others here
to make suggestions.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

[Jim Jackson]

On 2023-10-24, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
> Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
> right now.
>

Maybe expensive, but I'd have thought easy to get hold of now.

https://rpilocator.com/?cat=PI4

Is showing pi4's "in stock" all over the world.

[56d.1152]

On 10/24/23 3:02 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 10/23/23 11:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> You really haven't provided enough information here... like what is the
>>> code the browser is actually running?
>>
>> Cut it back and back - no webkit scaling or anything - until
>> it was basically just a page.pgp ... even tried an experimental
>> page.html. Nada. The frame border at most, no pix.
>
> Did you try without the frame, or even loading the video URL
> directly? It sounds a lot like the video acceleration problems in
> web browsers on the Pi that people have talked about here often in
> the past, unless it really only happens when frames are involved.

I can load the "motion" mjpeg stream directly, a url:port, and
it displays perfectly on the Pi. But the web pages, even though
they use the same url:port(s) to create the iframes ... nada
on the Pi (except the surrounding frame border), but perfectly OK
on an MX laptop.

Checked wifi speed, the Pi gets as good as anything else on site.

Now I HAVE this working on some 'work' units - again Pi's with
Chromium showing pages of iframes loading their stuff from 'motion'.
Those work very well. Some are quad-frames - 4 cams live on
a page.

I created a simple test page with an iframe pointed at a YouTube
video. Again, won't load it.

I'm gonna experiment with loading a couple of video-viewers,
VLC, maybe MPV as well. maybe showing the frames taps some
of the features of those ? Shouldn't, but ...

> Personally I don't play video in web browsers anywhere so I can't
> help with that, but it might narrow down the issue for others here
> to make suggestions.

Using a browser was THE easiest approach. A lot of the
needed capabilities just come with browsers. I'd writ several
python scripts employing Pillow and the OpenCV library but
never got 'em to work as smoothly as desired. Not necessarily
a lost cause ... just more of a pain than I'd hoped. Best
results were loading still-frames the cams generate using
curl and saving them as files. Still tend to get half-frames,
even with a locking scheme.

[56d.1152]

It's getting better now - Amazon was selling p4s for
over $220-US at one point, and sometimes they ran
out of those.

Of course the p5 is coming out next month. Don't
know how long until decent supplies show up in
the US retail chain. Do I want more p4s, or to
wait for the p5s ???

Anyway, the p3s were not awful. Was updating
an original p1b+ the other day. Still does its
one little thing perfectly after all these years.
Was running a REALLY old version of Raspbian,
moved it up to Bullseye 32bit. It' not connected
so the old old ver still would have been safe.

[56d.1152]

Followup note :

OK, found the cause. It's an authentication problem with 'motion'.

At the other place I'd set this up there is no auth for motion
streams because none are shared with the universe. In this new
application some of the streams ARE NAT-redirected, so we want
authentication. The usual "http://username:pas...@111.222.111.222:12345"
form in an iframe line doesn't work, at least when motion and
Apache are running on the same unit. CAN bring up a frame, but
have to manually authenticate. Not ideal. From afar, the usual
form works perfectly to get to the exposed mjpeg stream using
any browser (ok, not the ancient text-based browsers :-)

I'll have to look into the motion dox. Might be some Apache
tweak too.

I am going to use another Pi to SAVE a frame from those mjpeg
streams every x minutes, so I need to get the auth working
as expected. Already have a good python app for that. Yea, you
CAN run ZoneMinder on a Pi - but it's a real CPU hog even if
you disable the motion-detection stuff. Kinda drags-down a
"real PC". ZoneMinder is really just a very fancy front-end
for ffmpeg ... so a home-made ffmpeg daemon is not necessarily
a CPU saver here.

Hmm ... found a YouTube vid awhile ago about bringing up THE
first web page (which STILL exists, it's at CERN, basically
the defs for the 'www project'). The guy used a serious
blend of old tech and maybe a PDP-11 computer and finally
loaded the thing using a strip of PAPER TAPE with all the
login stuff on it. Interesting.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 25/10/2023 02:22, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 10/24/23 11:38 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
>> On 2023-10-24, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
>>> right now.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe expensive, but I'd have thought easy to get hold of now.
>>
>> https://rpilocator.com/?cat=PI4
>>
>> Is showing pi4's "in stock" all over the world.
>
>   It's getting better now - Amazon was selling p4s for
>   over $220-US at one point, and sometimes they ran
>   out of those.

My 1GB Pi4B delivered last week was £35 - say $50

>   Of course the p5 is coming out next month. Don't
>   know how long until decent supplies show up in
>   the US retail chain. Do I want more p4s, or to
>   wait for the p5s ???
>

before xmas for sure

>   Anyway, the p3s were not awful. Was updating
>   an original p1b+ the other day. Still does its
>   one little thing perfectly after all these years.
>   Was running a REALLY old version of Raspbian,
>   moved it up to Bullseye 32bit. It' not connected
>   so the old old ver still would have been safe.

If running well, leave well alone.
--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 25/10/2023 03:37, 56d.1152 wrote:
> I need to get the auth working
> as expected.

I built a proxy video streamer for TVheadend


This may work for you:


You pass the url to this php script as an argument: It uses
name/password to open the stream on a remote server and pushes it back
to the sender.

This should be enough to fool the browser that it isn't actually talking
to a remote content generator...

<?php
// file general interface to tvheadend API

if(!isset($_GET['channel']))
exit();
$channel=$_GET['channel'];
$url = "http://192.168.0.101:9981/stream/channelid/".$channel;

$ch = curl_init();
curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_URL,$url);
curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_CONNECTTIMEOUT, 10);
curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_HTTPAUTH, CURLAUTH_DIGEST);
curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_USERPWD, "name:password");
curl_setopt($ch, CURLOPT_WRITEFUNCTION, function($curl, $data) {
echo $data;
ob_flush();
flush();
return strlen($data);
});
curl_exec($ch);
curl_close($ch);



--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

[56d.1152]

On 10/25/23 1:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/10/2023 02:22, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 10/24/23 11:38 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-24, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
>>>> right now.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe expensive, but I'd have thought easy to get hold of now.
>>>
>>> https://rpilocator.com/?cat=PI4
>>>
>>> Is showing pi4's "in stock" all over the world.
>>
>>    It's getting better now - Amazon was selling p4s for
>>    over $220-US at one point, and sometimes they ran
>>    out of those.
>
>  My 1GB Pi4B delivered last week was £35  - say $50

From WHERE ???

But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
same power-consumption).

[56d.1152]

I'll see what I can do with it. Apparently the standard
solution is to use JavaScript to get an auth token and
then pass that in the iframe URL. I really really hate
JavaScript .........

Been experimenting with 'motion' ... and have had some
success enabling/disabling auth on a per-camera level.
'Motion' requires a number of small config files for
each cam (over one cam) and there are standard lines
for enabling/disabling auth. By having two kinds of
streams I can theoretically NAT-forward the auth
streams but use the non-auth streams for my local
application. Got 2 of 3 running so far ..... but
each stream burns CPU. I can dump a couple ...

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 25/10/2023 07:08, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 10/25/23 1:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/10/2023 02:22, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> On 10/24/23 11:38 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-24, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
>>>>> right now.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe expensive, but I'd have thought easy to get hold of now.
>>>>
>>>> https://rpilocator.com/?cat=PI4
>>>>
>>>> Is showing pi4's "in stock" all over the world.
>>>
>>>    It's getting better now - Amazon was selling p4s for
>>>    over $220-US at one point, and sometimes they ran
>>>    out of those.
>>
>>   My 1GB Pi4B delivered last week was £35  - say $50
>
>
>   From WHERE ???
>

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b

Coincidentally only a few miles away

>   But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>   soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>   at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>   same power-consumption).
>

Depends whether you *need* that performance.

I am gradually assembling my home server and only the TV server is a tad
marginal on CPU.

I have not run out of RAM, proving that by and large graphics is what
chews up CPU and memory!


--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Join the club...

Unfortunately it is relatively unavoidable.

>   Been experimenting with 'motion' ... and have had some
>   success enabling/disabling auth on a per-camera level.
>   'Motion' requires a number of small config files for
>   each cam (over one cam) and there are standard lines
>   for enabling/disabling auth. By having two kinds of
>   streams I can theoretically NAT-forward the auth
>   streams but use the non-auth streams for my local
>   application. Got 2 of 3 running so far ..... but
>   each stream burns CPU. I can dump a couple ...

That script entirely solved it for me. Just put a call to that script on
the server inside each i-frame. It is very low overhead on the server

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

[Theo]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b
>
> Coincidentally only a few miles away

For the record, I understand that Pi5s can be bought over the counter at the
Raspberry Pi store in Cambridge. Limited to one per customer, but that rate
limit may mean they can maintain stock.

(yes I know you might be allergic to Cambridge :-)

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

By the time I have driven in or paid the park and ride fare, and wasted
a whole day, the cost of ordering online even if I have to wait a few
days is far far less in time, money, and sheer waste of life that
Cambridge represents these days.

> Theo


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:29:06 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> days is far far less in time, money, and sheer waste of life that
> Cambridge represents these days.

Cambridge was a nice place going downhill fast when I left it in
1993.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 25/10/2023 19:14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:29:06 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> days is far far less in time, money, and sheer waste of life that
>> Cambridge represents these days.
>
> Cambridge was a nice place going downhill fast when I left it in
> 1993.
>

It gets worse every time I go.
Roads blocked off, car parks closed, cyclists in dark clothes without
lights slamming across in front of you from off the pavements, or the
wrong way up one way streets after dark, 20mh speed limits.
And unsurprisingly, all the town centres shops are now restaurants or
mobile phone shops.

Killed by a 'woke' Labour council and the Internet


--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

[Paul Hardy]

Yes, they have stock. I bought a Pi5 with power supply and case from there
this afternoon.

Although Cambridge was heaving (it’s half term, so lots of families with
kids), getting in and out via Madingley Road Park and Ride electric buses
was smooth, quick and very little wait either way.

--
Paul at the paulhardy.net domain

[56d.1152]

Gimme a few days ... juggling too many things
at the moment ... only APPROACHING retirement :-)

The 'within motion' trick does have appeal as you
don't really have to do anything special. Gonna
see if I can get the last two cams running without
auth, for local consumption, in a few days. The
forwarded streams DO still work, needing auth,
as desired.

[56d.1152]

On 10/25/23 4:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/10/2023 07:08, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 10/25/23 1:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/10/2023 02:22, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>> On 10/24/23 11:38 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-10-24, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would use a Pi4 but they're hard/expensive to get
>>>>>> right now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe expensive, but I'd have thought easy to get hold of now.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://rpilocator.com/?cat=PI4
>>>>>
>>>>> Is showing pi4's "in stock" all over the world.
>>>>
>>>>    It's getting better now - Amazon was selling p4s for
>>>>    over $220-US at one point, and sometimes they ran
>>>>    out of those.
>>>
>>>   My 1GB Pi4B delivered last week was £35  - say $50
>>
>>
>>    From WHERE ???
>>
> https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b
>
> Coincidentally only a few miles away
>
>>    But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>>    soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>>    at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>>    same power-consumption).
>>
> Depends whether you *need* that performance.

Well. "potential" is always good ... so long as
the price isn't too high. Think I'm gonna wait
for the 5s.

From what I can gather so far, the p5's double
the performance, but at about the p4 power
consumption. That's worth it.

Alas Pi's were NEVER good for embedded, esp
for "field" use where solar charging was part
of the equation unless you wanted a BIG panel
and battery. Last things I did like that used
Arduino's - with cellular modems. You could
cut the power consumption back to nearly zero
between data samples. Tiny panels/batts worked.

> I am gradually assembling my home server and only the TV server is a tad
> marginal on CPU.

Used correctly, you can do a LOT with a Pi ... they
are really impressive tech. Just have to be smart
about your code and such. I've been using P3s as
'motion' servers for security webcams for years.

A p3 can handle about three or four cams at a
few FPS no problem. P4's are better if you need
to format/resize said images for display. Have a
big monitor that shows successive and sometimes
multiple, in-motion, frames (what I'm trying to
emulate at home) where the pix ARE resized/tweaked.
Works great. P4-4gb.

Gotta go to lengths to keep the damned monitor
from going to sleep though ... xfce4-power-manger
and "caffeine" run in autostart seems to do it.
"Power-saving" is an obsession these days, you
have to go to lengths to defeat it. There's a
"move-mouse" thing in TKinter (and Lazarus)
that can be employed too - "move" the mouse
one pixel every 5 minutes. Emulating a mouse
move in 'c' is actually quite complicated,
deep 'device' stuff.

HAVE had a few issues with the P3's though. After
a couple of years the WiFi tends to fail. Had
three do that. So far no such issues with P4s.
Have one 'original' P1b+, the kind with fewer pins,
that's been doing it's ONE thing since forever.
Not net connected though and doesn't have WiFi.
Recently updated the ANCIENT Raspbian to Bullseye
basic version and new SD though ... should be good
for another decade.

> I have not run out of RAM, proving that by and large graphics is what
> chews up CPU and memory!

Just write it smart and you can go much further
with a Pi than you initially expected.

Gotta look into how you can force Linux to run
stuff on alternate cores ..... too much tends
to run on ONE core, leaving the others with
little to do. Got 'em, USE 'em.

[56d.1152]

OK ... found a Different Way. I'm running 'motion' directly
on the Pi and made a really simple Python/OpenCV program
that can directly read/resize/display the streams. No browser
required. You just start reading a different mjpeg stream
port every x-seconds. Added scaling/cropping options in just
a couple of lines.

DID try a hundred FFMPEG examples for restreaming rtsp and/or
sequential cam frames to mjpeg and NONE of them worked worth
a damn. Either the video quality was HORRIBLE or the current
ffmpeg would not over-write a saved file (no, the -y option
is NOT working as advertised - USED to, but not now). OpenCV
can also read files and display them as rapidly-changing
still frames.

OpenCV is NOT super happy trying to keep several
rtsp streams going alas - I'd been opening them and storing
the handles in a list. RE-starting an rtsp feed seems to
take 8-10 seconds, so that's not a real solution. 'Motion'
IS happy to open and keep alive rtsp feeds.

IF you don't need a really high frame rate then 'motion' on
a Pi 3/4 can handle quite a number of cams without bogging
down. For 'security' purposes even one or two FPS is more
than enough.

[Joerg Walther]

56d.1152 wrote:

>But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
> soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
> at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
> same power-consumption).

Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
performance on a Pi.

-jw-

--

And now for something completely different...

[56d.1152]

On 10/28/23 11:03 AM, Joerg Walther wrote:
> 56d.1152 wrote:
>
>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>> soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>> at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>> same power-consumption).
>
> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher

CRAP !!!

> and you need a much
> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
> performance on a Pi.

What's next for Pi's ... a big-ass genuine
desktop PC power supply ????????? May as
well buy a big-ass desktop PC ...........

Pi's are SUPPOSED to fit a "niche".

I'm tired of buying ever-bigger power supplies,
usually with novel connectors, just for Pi's.
IMHO, "improvement" means more performance at
the SAME power consumption.

Anyway, solved MY problem with a 3B+

Low power, doesn't even NEED a fan.

[56d.1152]

On 10/25/23 1:29 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/10/2023 17:13, Theo wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b
>>>
>>> Coincidentally only a few miles away
>>
>> For the record, I understand that Pi5s can be bought over the counter
>> at the
>> Raspberry Pi store in Cambridge.  Limited to one per customer, but
>> that rate
>> limit may mean they can maintain stock.
>>
>> (yes I know you might be allergic to Cambridge :-)
>>
> By the time I have driven in or paid the park and ride fare, and wasted
> a whole day, the cost of ordering online even if I have to wait a few
> days is far far less in time, money, and sheer waste of life that
> Cambridge represents these days.

Might do better with *walking* ......

Or just giving Cambridge the shaft entirely ...

Sorry. but 'Woke' really should = BROKE.

[56d.1152]

On 10/28/23 11:03 AM, Joerg Walther wrote:

> 56d.1152 wrote:
>
>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>> soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>> at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>> same power-consumption).
>
> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
> performance on a Pi.

They MAY be destroying their own 'niche'.

If 'PC' performance/power-consumption is
required I'll just buy a PC board.

I'll consider the 4 the pinnacle of Pi.
When they stop making them, I won't buy
any of their other stuff.

[Andy Burns]

56d.1152 wrote:

> Joerg Walther wrote:
>
>> 56d.1152 wrote:
>>
>>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are soon to hit the
>>> market ??? They're claiming at least TWICE the performance (I
>>> guess at the same power-consumption).
>>
>> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a
>> much stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this
>> kind of performance on a Pi.
>
> They MAY be destroying their own 'niche'.

I think rPi4 jumped the shark in terms of cost and power ... moving from
the mindset of a handy SBC, to a small PC.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/10/2023 05:51, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 10/25/23 1:29 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/10/2023 17:13, Theo wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b
>>>>
>>>> Coincidentally only a few miles away
>>>
>>> For the record, I understand that Pi5s can be bought over the counter
>>> at the
>>> Raspberry Pi store in Cambridge.  Limited to one per customer, but
>>> that rate
>>> limit may mean they can maintain stock.
>>>
>>> (yes I know you might be allergic to Cambridge :-)
>>>
>> By the time I have driven in or paid the park and ride fare, and
>> wasted a whole day, the cost of ordering online even if I have to wait
>> a few days is far far less in time, money, and sheer waste of life
>> that Cambridge represents these days.
>
>   Might do better with *walking* ......
>

All 25 miles?

>   Or just giving Cambridge the shaft entirely ...
>

Mostly, I do.

>   Sorry. but 'Woke' really should = BROKE.

Cambridge now lives in a bubble of progressive liberal ideologies that
are strangling it commercially: Everyone I know who doesn't tolerate
that shit, leaves.


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/10/2023 06:06, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 10/28/23 11:03 AM, Joerg Walther wrote:
>> 56d.1152 wrote:
>>
>>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>>>    soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>>>    at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>>>    same power-consumption).
>>
>> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
>> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
>> performance on a Pi.
>
>   They MAY be destroying their own 'niche'.
>
>   If 'PC' performance/power-consumption is
>   required I'll just buy a PC board.

That shortly may feature an ARM processor, anyway.

>
>   I'll consider the 4 the pinnacle of Pi.
>   When they stop making them, I won't buy
>   any of their other stuff.
>

*shrug*, Too much ideology. If I can buy a PC equivalent mobo for under
$150 I dont care what processor it uses.
As long as it runs Linux



--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

[druck]

On 30/10/2023 08:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Cambridge now lives in a bubble of progressive liberal ideologies that
> are strangling it commercially: Everyone I know who doesn't tolerate
> that shit, leaves.

Yes I loved Cambridge, but in the end had to leave, and I certainly
don't miss my commute from St Neots 20 miles away.

The easiest way was by car during the school holidays, 30 minutes in 40
minutes back, add another 15 minutes in term time. But that was before
the company moved offices to one without car parking, and the new
traffic restrictions in the centre. Using the park and Ride at
Maddeningly Road would add two bus journeys and over half an hour more
each way.

The best way was actually by train, as the office was on Station Road,
but I would have to drive to 20 miles south to the nearest train station
to get a reasonable fair, as the prices on the east coast mainline from
St Neots stations were ridiculous. Luckily Baldock station was on the
way to my wife's work so she was able to drop me off, until we had kids
and then that meant leaving too early to get them to nursery.

So I ended up for the last few nightmare years dropping the kids off at
nursery at 8am and getting the 8:06 bus from 50 yards down the road,
which should get in at 8:46 and a short walk to work. Only it never did,
9:30 if I was lucky, 10:30 a lot of the time, and another hour and a
quarter to get home in the evening. The main problem being cyclists in
the bus lane - no point in having a bus lane if the bus is continuously
having to have to pull out in to general traffic to go around cyclists.

---druck

[druck]

On 28/10/2023 16:03, Joerg Walther wrote:
> 56d.1152 wrote:
>
>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>> soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>> at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>> same power-consumption).
>
> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
> performance on a Pi.

Don't confuse the power supply with power usage. The large supply is to
be able to deliver more power to the USB ports and the new PCIe port. If
you don't need that, you can use the Pi 4 supply.

---druck

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yup. Unless you live in Cambridge getting to work there is murder.
When I had a business in the business park. it was quicker to drive 22
miles to my house in Suffolk than to the train station.

They (the council) wanted a carless cyclist's paradise with no industry
and that is exactly what they are getting.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I figured that out - the USB ports are much beefier, and a Pi5 is my
fallback if I cant run all my USB drives on a pi 4...


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 16:11:51 +0000

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> They (the council) wanted a carless cyclist's paradise with no industry
> and that is exactly what they are getting.

That's not the council that's the university - bear in mind that
the Guildhall is built on university land.

[Paul Hardy]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> They (the council) wanted a carless cyclist's paradise with no industry
> and that is exactly what they are getting.

To put a counter example, albeit not going to work, I today went into
Cambridge. I left home (Comberton) 13:15, drove 5 miles to Madingley P&R,
parked easily (170 spaces), and caught the 13:30 PR1 bus. Arrived Round
Church at 13:40. Did half a dozen bits of shopping (Cotswold, M&S, WH
Smith, Raspberry Pi, John Lewis) in next 30 mins. Caught the return P&R
waiting on St Andrews St. 15 minutes to P&R. 10 minutes home.

All fast, easy. Total in/out travel time less than 50 mins.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 02/11/2023 17:13, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 16:11:51 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> They (the council) wanted a carless cyclist's paradise with no industry
>> and that is exactly what they are getting.
>
> That's not the council that's the university - bear in mind that
> the Guildhall is built on university land.
>

I am afraid the University's purlieu does not extend to every
residential street in the town...

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

[druck]

That's during the day! Try coming in at 0800 and leaving at 1700.

---druck

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 10:18:07 +0000
druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> That's during the day! Try coming in at 0800 and leaving at 1700.

Jetpack to Marshalls and helicopter home nothing else will be quick
or even remotely direct.

[56d.1152]

On 11/2/23 12:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 02/11/2023 13:22, druck wrote:
>> On 28/10/2023 16:03, Joerg Walther wrote:
>>> 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>
>>>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>>>>    soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>>>>    at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>>>>    same power-consumption).
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
>>> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
>>> performance on a Pi.
>>
>> Don't confuse the power supply with power usage. The large supply is
>> to be able to deliver more power to the USB ports and the new PCIe
>> port. If you don't need that, you can use the Pi 4 supply.
>>
>> ---druck
>>
> I figured that out - the USB ports are much beefier, and a Pi5 is my
> fallback if I cant run all my USB drives on a pi 4...

"All" ? :-)

I do have a Pi3 that has a 3tb magnetic USB drive
plugged in, all power from the port ... and it works
great, for years, even with the "tiny" Pi3 power supply.
Actually it runs off one of those phone-charger thingies
you buy at 7-11 .... I've just ignored the "low voltage"
warning for years :-)

It's nice if the P5 will be ABLE to push a lot of
power thru the USBs - potential is always good.
But for MOST uses .......

I've been more worried about whether the new & improved
processor is gonna suck a lot more power unto itself.

Still none on Amazon - but P4s can be had for about $65
again. Yea, still a big mark-up over the "official" price,
which I've never seen outside UK outlets. Still a BIG
disappointment - Vilnos and CanaKits bundles ... Pi + power +
case ... are still very high. Cheaper to buy the individual
components.

DID find a goodie however - the "SmartiCase"
which holds a P4 + 7" Official Touchscreen - and can
work without a power splitter. Two variants - the
'fat' case (which is what the instructions cover) and
the 'thin' case. DID have to snip just a little plastic
off the inside of the 'thin' case, otherwise the board
wouldn't go QUITE far enough over. But, strong and
stylish and has a few options. The 'fat' case has a
spot for the Pi cam while the 'thin' has an optional
hole for some other (very small) cam. Anyway, for
the 'thin' case, just reason out the assembly.

Oh, for minimal use, Amazon had a brand-x "ABS PLASTIC
CASE" for like $1.75 (plus $6 shipping from who the
hell knows where - claims to be a pacific island).
Put a Pi2b in there, perfect fit, 4 screws to secure
everything. A Pi2b with 'Motion' works quite well
as a webcam/MJPEG server. Bookworm/32 Lite does work
fine on a 2b ... and a 1b too so long as you don't
have an 'intensive' use in mind ........

[56d.1152]

On 10/30/23 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/10/2023 06:06, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 10/28/23 11:03 AM, Joerg Walther wrote:
>>> 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>
>>>> But, should I spend $$$ on a 4 when the 5s are
>>>>    soon to hit the market ??? They're claiming
>>>>    at least TWICE the performance (I guess at the
>>>>    same power-consumption).
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, power consumption is much higher and you need a much
>>> stronger PSU. I'm not getting one since I do not need this kind of
>>> performance on a Pi.
>>
>>    They MAY be destroying their own 'niche'.
>>
>>    If 'PC' performance/power-consumption is
>>    required I'll just buy a PC board.
>
> That shortly may feature an ARM processor, anyway.

There IS a funky ARM version of Win ....
but you'd better buy a LARGE SD card :-)

And then PAY Bill Gates .. over and over ...

>>    I'll consider the 4 the pinnacle of Pi.
>>    When they stop making them, I won't buy
>>    any of their other stuff.
>>
>
> *shrug*, Too much ideology.

Just enough PRACTICAL ..... :-)

> If I can buy a PC equivalent mobo for under
> $150 I dont care what processor it uses.
> As long as it runs Linux

I've seen sources for older laptop MoBos ...
many will run Linux fer-sure. When the screens
crack or KBs get balky, people DUMP the laptops.
However the core MBs are often still perfectly
good.

But they're a lot bigger than a PI, use a
lot more power too.

When on Amazon, I'll buy a Pi-5 for eval
purposes. We'll see ........

There are a lot of "Pi-Like" boards out there
as well. Alas the Orange/Bananna ones you can
easily find still have no WiFi on the board -
and I got HORRIBLE performance trying USB
WiFi dongles. For some apps, a BBB might still
be the better choice.

[56d.1152]

If you want sane CHANGES ... you HAVE to provide
ALTERNATIVE FACILITIES and suck-in a lot of the
top names from Cambridge/Oxford.

It'll also need FUNDING - from the old-school Old Money,
alumni and beyond.

Likely, if anybody looks closely enough, there's surely some
ed-expansion legislation buried in the books - where the
govt HAS to offer money/incentives/breaks (beware any COSTS
associated).

Oh, give the new schools decent Olde England city/place
names. It'll go a long way for psychological reasons.

In short, DRAIN the ultra-Wokie universities until they
either have to change, or vanish. A pity, yes, but ...

SAME issues now in the USA as well. Even many "liberals"
are advising the youth to NOT attend the "Ivy League"
universities because they just make kiddies into STUPID
hyper-lefty idiot-activists.

Again, ALTERNATIVES are the best answer. Not EASIEST,
but BEST. A new "Ivy League" ... dedicated to great
ed, not the latest political trends.

But we've kind of left the r-PI universe here ....

[56d.1152]

Found some more dox on the Pi5 today.

It CAN run on a regular Pi4/USB-C power supply.

UNLESS you need a lot more amperage.

THEN you need a "USB-C/PD" ... I suspect that
means "Power Detection" ... power supply. Seems
the Pi5 has special circuitry that can "talk"
to those kinds of supplies.

More complexity is usually NOT so good - and
usually COSTS you as well.

Anyway, if you HAVE to have three mag USB drives
and a coffee-warmer attached to yer Pi5 then you
will have to buy a 'PD' unit.

If Pi goes any further, well, may as well just
buy a NUC or related running Winders ..... saw
one today (some "Bee"-named things) with the
cheapest under $200 US and fair reviews.

Pi was successful because it fit into a *niche*
between microcontrollers and "real PCs" (and
was cheap/compact). If they slide out of that
niche though there's just no POINT to them.

[Jean-Pierre Kuypers]

In article (Dans l'article)
<_2qdnflafPktVdT4...@earthlink.com>, 56d.1152
<56d....@ztq9.net> wrote (écrivait) :

> you need a "USB-C/PD" ... I suspect that means "Power Detection" ...
> power supply

Power Delivery
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#USB_Power_Delivery>

--
Jean-Pierre Kuypers

[56d.1152]

Thanks.

In any event the Pi5 "talks" to it somehow when
it needs a big burst of amperage.

[mm0fmf]

On 08/11/2023 04:08, 56d.1152 wrote:
> burst of amperage.

The word you want is current.

[56d.1152]

Same thing. 'Amperage' is a volume of
electrons/charge-carriers per unit time
So is 'electrical current'.