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Yoicks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

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gareth evans

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Oct 28, 2021, 5:05:28 AM10/28/21
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Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!

When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
was the bees' knees back then!

gareth evans

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Oct 28, 2021, 5:43:04 AM10/28/21
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The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 28, 2021, 9:03:47 AM10/28/21
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On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:
I sometimes imagine what would have happened if someone had tossed a
fully linux loaded laptop with C compiler at Alan Turing and the boys in
the last war.



--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 28, 2021, 9:16:59 AM10/28/21
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well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
problem :-)


--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

David Taylor

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Oct 28, 2021, 9:26:23 AM10/28/21
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On 28/10/2021 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
> problem:-)

Yes, more memory would be nice, but I have an app which is a little slow on the
Pi Zero, and where the multiple cores would likely speed it up noticeably. I'm
looking forward to testing it.

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

Folderol

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Oct 28, 2021, 9:38:19 AM10/28/21
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:26:22 +0100
David Taylor <david-...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

>On 28/10/2021 14:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
>> problem:-)
>
>Yes, more memory would be nice, but I have an app which is a little slow on the
>Pi Zero, and where the multiple cores would likely speed it up noticeably. I'm
>looking forward to testing it.
>
Attach some relays and input protection, and it's perfect as the core of an HMI.

Eat your hearts out Crestron and AMX :)

--
Basic

gareth evans

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Oct 28, 2021, 10:54:58 AM10/28/21
to
On 28/10/2021 14:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:
>> Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!
>>
>> When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11
>> with 32 KB Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost
>> about £10K whereas my annual salary as a graduate beginner
>> was about £1350 PA, way back in 1972 and I thought that I
>> was the bees' knees back then!
>>
> I sometimes imagine what would have happened if someone had tossed a
> fully linux loaded laptop with C compiler at Alan Turing and the boys in
> the last war.
>
>
>

Prosecuted for assault?

paul lee

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Oct 28, 2021, 5:20:33 PM10/28/21
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TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
TN> problem :-)

Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
Zero footprint.

I can't wait to receive a few.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 29, 2021, 4:48:39 AM10/29/21
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On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
> TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
> TN> problem :-)
>
> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
> Zero footprint.
>
> I can't wait to receive a few.
>
>
Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
did with Pis.

Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
interface as the user interface.




--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

Geeknix

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:09:11 AM10/29/21
to
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
>> in the same Zero footprint.
>>
>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>
>>
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.
>
> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
> from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
> interface as the user interface.
>

I use mine to get my GNU/Linux command line fix. I use Mutt, SLRN,
Newsbeuter, Lynx (for web and Gopher), Weechat, and access BBSes.

It also runs; web server, onion server, SFTP, and NZB downloader.

My RPi3 just bust so I got the RPi4 now.

--
Don't be afraid of the deep...
--[ bbs.bottomlessabyss.net|https|telnet=2023|ssh=2222 ]--
--[ Remove the fruit and digits for valid email address ]--

NY

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:11:52 AM10/29/21
to
"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me...
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.
>
> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system from
> music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web interface
> as the user interface.

I have two Pis.

Pi 3B+ runs Cumulus weather station software, receiving temperature,
rainfall, humidity and wind readings from a weather station, logging them
and updating a website of them. It also runs a Node app which monitors and
graphs the power consumption over time for a couple of freezers in the
garage (Beko, so rated to well below freezing, before anyone comments!)
using smart plugs: this is a crude way of checking that the freezers are
working properly and have not a) stopped working altogether, or b) started
working continuously because of lack of coolant; ideally I'd use a
remote-monitored thermometer inside the freezer, but I can't find any of
those for sale.

Pi 4 runs TVHeadend PVR software to record TV programmes via DVB-S and DVB-T
tuners. I save the recordings to a spinning (ie not solid-state) HDD which I
SAMBA-share and then edit out commercials/continuity using VideoReDo on
Windows before saving the recordings to shared folder structure on Windows
which can be viewed on the TV via Plex. I also have another folder on the Pi
shared as general-purpose NAS for files that I want to be accessible 24/7
without needing to turn on a Windows PC.

Both Pis run Raspberry PiOS (aka Raspbian). I am cautious about updating
software the Pi 4 after I found that an update (probably to the kernel)
caused a lot of glitches on recordings from the DVB-S tuner, so I regressed
to an older kernel and have stopped updating this Pi. I take images of both
Pis' SD cards every few months so I've got a rollback point. I've also made
copious notes about installation and configuration in case I decide to
reinstall from scratch - as I had to do with the 3B after it refused to boot
after a tidy restart one day: I never did get to the bottom of what had gone
wrong, and it was quicker to reinstall than to spend any more time
investigating.


One cautionary tale. The Pi4 originally used a USB HDD plugged into a
powered USB hub to power the HDD so the Pi didn't have to supply power. This
had worked fine on the Pi 3B, but the Pi 4 refused to boot whilst the hub
was powered; it hung indefinitely until I turned off the hub or unplugged
the hub's USB from the Pi, at which point booting proceeded as normal. Some
people suggested that certain hubs try to feed power back up the USB cable
to the Pi, but I disproved that by making up a special lead on which I had
cut the +5V line - this did not fix the problem. So I now use a SATA drive
in a powered caddy, which works fine.

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:13:34 AM10/29/21
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On 29/10/2021 10:09, Geeknix wrote:
> On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
>>> in the same Zero footprint.
>>>
>>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>>
>>>
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>> did with Pis.
>>
>> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
>> from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
>> interface as the user interface.
>>
>
> I use mine to get my GNU/Linux command line fix. I use Mutt, SLRN,
> Newsbeuter, Lynx (for web and Gopher), Weechat, and access BBSes.
>
> It also runs; web server, onion server, SFTP, and NZB downloader.
>
> My RPi3 just bust so I got the RPi4 now.
>
Oh, so its a user interfaced device with screen and keyboard?

I thought that a zero wouldn't really run a gui, but never thought of
running a console non - x session


--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:17:16 AM10/29/21
to
On 29/10/2021 10:11, NY wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me...
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
>> they did with Pis.
>>
>> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
>> from music on my server or from  internet radio stations. Using a web
>> interface as the user interface.
>
> I have two Pis.
>
> Pi 3B+ runs Cumulus weather station software, receiving temperature,
> rainfall, humidity and wind readings from a weather station, logging
> them and updating a website of them. It also runs a Node app which
> monitors and graphs the power consumption over time for a couple of
> freezers in the garage (Beko, so rated to well below freezing, before
> anyone comments!) using smart plugs: this is a crude way of checking
> that the freezers are working properly and have not a) stopped working
> altogether, or b) started working continuously because of lack of
> coolant; ideally I'd use a remote-monitored thermometer inside the
> freezer, but I can't find any of those for sale.
>
That sounds massively interesting.
Smart plugs?
Ah. Your second Pi is what my x86 server does.

Paul Hardy

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:45:35 AM10/29/21
to
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

1) I have a Pi 4 running OpenMediaVault acting as primary file backup
server for the home PCs, laptops etc.

2) I have another Pi 4 running SimH and pretending (perfectly) to be a VAX
running VMS 5.5-2 for a software archaeology project and archiving historic
source code for posterity.

3) I have a Pi Zero W with a one-wire temperature sensor, monitoring a
temperamental freezer and sending me an email if it gets too hot or cold.

4) I have a Pi Zero W with voice hat, running Google Assistant, as a Hey
Google smart speaker in the living room to ask about the weather etc.

5) I have a Pi 3B with a Pisound hat running Patchbox for music experiments
with a midi concertina (not many of them about).

Plus a few earlier machines that have been passed on to a local kid who’s
interested in electronics.

Regards,

--
Paul at the paulhardy.net domain

Joe

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Oct 29, 2021, 6:06:46 AM10/29/21
to
On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:11:40 +0100
"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>
> One cautionary tale. The Pi4 originally used a USB HDD plugged into a
> powered USB hub to power the HDD so the Pi didn't have to supply
> power. This had worked fine on the Pi 3B, but the Pi 4 refused to
> boot whilst the hub was powered; it hung indefinitely until I turned
> off the hub or unplugged the hub's USB from the Pi, at which point
> booting proceeded as normal. Some people suggested that certain hubs
> try to feed power back up the USB cable to the Pi, but I disproved
> that by making up a special lead on which I had cut the +5V line -
> this did not fix the problem. So I now use a SATA drive in a powered
> caddy, which works fine.
>

I have an old-ish (about to retire) Gigabyte MB, whose BIOS swears that
booting from USB is disabled, but if I ever leave a USB stick in it by
accident, the next boot hangs while it tries to find a non-existent
bootloader on the thing.

There is a hub permanently connected, which doesn't seem to worry it,
but it will hang on any other USB device, there's apparently no
timeout. Possibly there's an updated BIOS that fixes this, but in
general I don't touch the BIOS unless it has a serious problem.

--
Joe

Richard Kettlewell

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Oct 29, 2021, 6:21:12 AM10/29/21
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
> they did with Pis.

Personally, it’s just a small Linux box which happens to be aarch64
rather than x86. So an environment for exploring the architecture,
getting tripped up by platform-specific compiler bugs, etc.

My colleagues use Pis as part of our testing infrastructure, using them
to simulate human interactions with the hardware components of our
product in an automatable way.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 29, 2021, 6:38:40 AM10/29/21
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Where did you find the time!...

--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

David Taylor

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Oct 29, 2021, 6:39:18 AM10/29/21
to
On 29/10/2021 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

This was from a few years back.

https://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/index.html

I also have RPi cards running amateur radio hotspots, and an RPi 400 running a
Windows x86 program under the Twister OS.

David Higton

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Oct 29, 2021, 9:09:35 AM10/29/21
to
In message <slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.

I have an old Pi running my central heating and hot water system. Home
brew software, running on RISC OS. Includes web interface and voice
control. Occasionally used for controlling Sonoff devices too, again
including voice control.

I have a Pi 3B+ running OpenMediaVault, with two drives, acting as a
NAS, mainly for backups and storing photos and videos.

There's an older Pi (I forget which model) running OpenVPN to secure
web access to the heating system when away from home.

Other than the main desktop, they run headless.

I've got a couple more that I occasionally run up when I want to try
something else.

David

Folderol

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Oct 29, 2021, 9:10:35 AM10/29/21
to
On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:48:37 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
>> TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
>> TN> problem :-)
>>
>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
>> Zero footprint.
>>
>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>
>>
>Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>did with Pis.
>
>Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
>from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
>interface as the user interface.

Full fat music soft-synth on a Pi4
Sold a few to friends.
http://www.musically.me.uk/YoshimiPi/index.html

The current builds also include an arpeggiator and sequencer :)

--
Basic

Geeknix

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Oct 29, 2021, 9:12:02 AM10/29/21
to
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/10/2021 10:09, Geeknix wrote:
>> On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower
>>>> in the same Zero footprint.
>>>>
>>>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>>> did with Pis.
>>>
>>> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
>>> from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
>>> interface as the user interface.
>>>
>>
>> I use mine to get my GNU/Linux command line fix. I use Mutt, SLRN,
>> Newsbeuter, Lynx (for web and Gopher), Weechat, and access BBSes.
>>
>> It also runs; web server, onion server, SFTP, and NZB downloader.
>>
>> My RPi3 just bust so I got the RPi4 now.
>>
> Oh, so its a user interfaced device with screen and keyboard?
>
> I thought that a zero wouldn't really run a gui, but never thought of
> running a console non - x session
>
>

I SSH to the Pi from any machine. As I only use it for command line
stuff with no X-Forwarding.

John Aldridge

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Oct 29, 2021, 5:47:57 PM10/29/21
to
In article <slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me>, t...@invalid.invalid says...
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

Backup server (syncthing + btrfs)
Meteor detector (plugged into an SDR looking at Graves)
Christmas flashing lights :)
TV server & PVR (tvheadend)
Weather station
Wildlife camera (Motion)
Seed propagator thermostat (DS18B20 + Energenie switch)
A couple of spares for playing with

--
John

Pancho

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Oct 29, 2021, 6:35:42 PM10/29/21
to
On 29/10/2021 09:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
>>   TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution
>> looking for a
>>   TN> problem :-)
>>
>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in
>> the same
>> Zero footprint.
>>
>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>
>>
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.
>
> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
> from music on my server or from  internet radio stations. Using a web
> interface as the user interface.
>
>

All pis used as servers

SMB disk server, rsnapshot
Docker host: gitea, gollum, syncthing, motioneye, ocrmypdf, deluge

Pretty much anything I want on all the time.

This week I going to do an energy logger with my brand new ATHOM/Tasmota
plugs, to find out if/why my little fridge + freezer are using 2 kWh per
day and if the yearly defrosting makes a difference.

Computer Nerd Kev

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Oct 29, 2021, 10:02:18 PM10/29/21
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
> Oh, so its a user interfaced device with screen and keyboard?
>
> I thought that a zero wouldn't really run a gui

Sure, it's got plenty of power for that. The limit that I found is
that they cheat a little (maybe a lot) with the RPi OS packages and
eg. Firefox won't run because the package for it isn't compatible
with the CPU architecture of the Pi Zero (1) ("armel" in Debian
package talk). I expect that's because the package is actually
adapted from the current Debian package, and Debian don't support
the Pi Zero (1).

PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
architectures are.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev

unread,
Oct 29, 2021, 10:23:22 PM10/29/21
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
>> TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
>> TN> problem :-)
>>
>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in the same
>> Zero footprint.
>>
>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

I wanted to decode P25 digital radio transmissions with a Pi Zero
but it didn't have the oomph. Or at least not with the software I
could find some time ago, everything seems to be "forked from a
fork of a fork" sort of stuff and there's little clear
documentation of the changes (though the maths is over my head
anyway to be honest). I always get a bit fed up with it all when
I try to get back to that actually, but I might summon up the
strength for another attempt once this Zero 2 is obtainable.

Much more successful, though still wanting for the power (or more
to the point, the multiple CPU cores) of a Pi Zero 2, is this
project that I've been working with others on for interfacing with
the Vectrex video games console:
http://www.ombertech.com/cnk/pitrex/wiki/

The Natural Philosopher

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Oct 30, 2021, 2:16:59 AM10/30/21
to
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
> In message <slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me>
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>> did with Pis.
>
> My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.

I thought about that, but I have a few things that aren't ported to ARM
to run here, and a few more things that need CPU grunt.

>
> I have an old Pi running my central heating and hot water system. Home
> brew software, running on RISC OS. Includes web interface and voice
> control. Occasionally used for controlling Sonoff devices too, again
> including voice control.
>
Thought about doing that, but realised if I need to sell the house, it
would be a downside.

> I have a Pi 3B+ running OpenMediaVault, with two drives, acting as a
> NAS, mainly for backups and storing photos and videos.
>
I could possibly replace my server with a Pi, yes.

> There's an older Pi (I forget which model) running OpenVPN to secure
> web access to the heating system when away from home.
>
> Other than the main desktop, they run headless.
>
yes. Beacuse I am in transition and upgrading all machines here, I do
have at the moment thee screens and keyboards .

Once the need to switch on one of them hasn't occurred for a few months,
I will wipe it and then also remove the screen from the server perhaps -
although its a handy second machine when friends visit.




> I've got a couple more that I occasionally run up when I want to try
> something else.
>
> David
>


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 2:17:52 AM10/30/21
to
On 29/10/2021 22:47, John Aldridge wrote:
> Wildlife camera (Motion)

Id be interested in hearing more about that.



--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 2:36:22 AM10/30/21
to
On 30/10/2021 03:23, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Or at least not with the software I
> could find some time ago, everything seems to be "forked from a
> fork of a fork" sort of stuff and there's little clear
> documentation of the changes

Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will
solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the
documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
than I hacked up'

I have a routine called 'scrape' that is built out of libcurl, that
essentially takes a URL and returns a pointer to the memory block
containing the contents of that URL page

it took a long time to develop, because all I found on lib curl was
"this is an example, that works, ( but doesn't do what you want) "

Exactly the same words could be applied to something else I was trying
to do - some arbitrary audio signal processing in a browser's
JavaScript. Eventually I found the right combination of magic spells,
but really I didn't want and shouldn't have needed to have to learn so
much about the details of javascript's asynch thread implementations to
do that .

Richard K complains about 'cargo culting' - well if you don't explain
how stuff works to the 'islanders', rather than providing more packaged
solutions to problems they don't have, it remains the most cost
effective way of developing things.

Sometimes I wonder if the reason why the gurus don't explain in detail
how things work, is because they secretly cargo culted or random
monkeyed it themselves and *don't actually know how it works* either:-)

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

A. Dumas

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 4:25:44 AM10/30/21
to
On 29-10-2021 10:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

400: workbench computer, also testing distros with different sd cards.
4: headless wired server booting from ssd, home webserver, development
files backup, ssh entrypoint from outside, using free mathematica via
vnc (so, still on 32-bit RPiOS), automated download script for 15-minute
temperature graphs of the country (NL) which it makes into a movie every
night, testing programs/scripts on a "slow" computer, general linux testbed.
ZeroW: with Iqaudio board hooked up to the stereo for music streams via
mpd and my own web interface.
2x ZeroW: with cameras as (local) webcams to look out the windows.
3A+: with another Iqaudio board for headphones on my desk.
3B+: with 1TB 2.5" hdd at another location for off site backup.

And you?

Ian

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Oct 30, 2021, 5:22:22 AM10/30/21
to
On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.

23 to date. Here goes...

- Network timeserver (ntpd doesn't play nice in KVM guests)

- 2 x "Management modules". These are serial port servers for UPS's,
server consoles, cable modem power switch and incoming dial-up modem
(so I can poke the cable modem :)

- WLAN bridge. Provides backup internet by bridging mobile WiFi
hotspot to wired LAN

- Several security cameras, running very bespoke software

- A dedicated compile server, for software development

- Several in use for development of new things

- Several unused, and one with a fried CSI port (but otherwise
fine), following a small upset on the bench. The camera that
was attached is toast, but useful as a template for drilling
cases.


Here's the full inventory...

[ian@vm46 ~]$ cat /data/home/ian/notes/raspberry-pi.txt

Name Model Location Use
---- ----- -------- ---

pi01 Pi-B+ Box Spare
pi02 Pi-A Box Spare
pi03 Pi-2 Server shelf Timeserver
pi04 Pi-2 Box picam dev
pi05 Pi-2 Box CSI fried :(
pi06 Pi-2 Box picam dev
pi07 Pi-2 - Given to xxx for pp
pi08 Pi-3 wr picam (cam03)
pi09 Pi-B Box Spare
pi10 Pi-B+ Server shelf Management Module
pi11 Pi-2 Comms shelf Management Module
pi12 Pi-3 Server shelf WLAN bridge
pi13 Pi-3 wr picam (cam01)
pi14 Pi-3 wton picam (small display dev)
pi15 Pi-3B+ wton picam (large display)
pi16 Pi-3B+ wr picam (cam02)
pi17 Pi-4 4G Server shelf Dev/Compile host
pi18 Pi-4 1G Box new
pi19 Pi-3B+ wton ubus dev
pi20 Pi-3B+ wton picam dev
pi21 Pi-3B+ wton picam dev
pi22 Pi-3B+ Box new
pi23 Pi-3B+ Box new


--
Ian

"Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

NY

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 5:32:19 AM10/30/21
to
"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:slge6r$jcl$1...@dont-email.me...
>> It also runs a Node app which monitors and graphs the power consumption
>> over time for a couple of freezers in the garage (Beko, so rated to well
>> below freezing, before anyone comments!) using smart plugs: this is a
>> crude way of checking that the freezers are working properly and have not
>> a) stopped working altogether, or b) started working continuously because
>> of lack of coolant; ideally I'd use a remote-monitored thermometer inside
>> the freezer, but I can't find any of those for sale.
>>
> That sounds massively interesting.
> Smart plugs?

The smart plugs are TPLink HS110(UK). The app is one I found on the web
https://travis-ci.org/github/jamesbarnett91/tplink-energy-monitor and I made
a few cosmetic tweaks.

A word of warning: of the various HS110s that we have, only some of them
show up in the app. It's probably a firmware thing. It's not a problem: we
just choose the ones that work as ones that we want to monitor; the rest
still work in the TPlink app and can be monitored and controlled in that app
but can't be graphed.

https://i.postimg.cc/KYF1CMRy/Screenshot-2021-10-30-at-10-18-25-New-Beko-Energy-Monitor.png

The Realtime Trend graph shows the usage over the past few minutes as a
sideway-scrolling graph. The Logged Usage graph shows a regular cycling of
the motor/compressor in the freezer, with an occasional higher power usage
which I presume is the frost-free melting any accumulated ice on the heat
exchanger. The Last 12 Months graph shows that more power is used in the
summer when the ambient temperature is higher and the freezer is having to
work harder to keep the inside down to temperature - the freezer is in an
unheated (and uninsulated) garage, so the ambient temperature will vary more
than inside a heated house.


Our old freezer failed, luckily not too long before we discovered it so we
were able to cook and re-freeze most of the contents. But it made us realise
that we needed to be able to monitor the temperature to look for problems.
Monitoring power consumption was a low-tech solution using technology that
we already had.

Would you believe that after we'd started monitoring freezer consumption,
another freezer (in the kitchen) failed shortly after we bought it - on that
occasion the graph showed continuous power usage with no cycling to maintain
the correct temperature. Again we were lucky to detect it fairly soon. That
was due to a manufacturing fault: all the coolant had leaked out :-(
Getting it replaced under warranty was a frustrating task because of
incompetence in the manufacturer and maintenance companies, but it all
worked out OK in the end.

NY

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 5:34:46 AM10/30/21
to
"Joe" <j...@jretrading.com> wrote in message
news:20211029110...@jresid.jretrading.com...
The failure to boot is something which only affects the Pi4. The Pi3, with
the same HDD and USB hub, booted fine. Looking on Pi forums, some people
said that cutting the +5V line in the Pi-to-hub lead worked, to stop the hub
phantom-powering the Pi as it was booting, but it didn't work for me.
Luckily the powered HDD caddy solution worked fine.

NY

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 5:48:41 AM10/30/21
to
"Geeknix" <use...@apple.geeknix135.net> wrote in message
news:slrnsnnsov...@raspberrypi.geeknix.net...
> I SSH to the Pi from any machine. As I only use it for command line
> stuff with no X-Forwarding.

I run my two Pis headless. You need tweaks

hdmi_force_hotplug=1 # allow Pi to boot with no monitor connected
hdmi_mode=82 # force 1920x1080x60 even though monitor can’t be
auto-detected

in /boot/config.txt for the Pi4 to allow it to boot headless.

I mainly use RealVNC on Windows or Android to access the Pi's desktop,
though I've also used SSH (PuTTY on Windows, JuiceSSH on Android) for
command-line.

NY

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 5:59:56 AM10/30/21
to
"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:slio2f$7nc$2...@dont-email.me...
> On 29/10/2021 22:47, John Aldridge wrote:
>> Wildlife camera (Motion)
>
> Id be interested in hearing more about that.

Yes, what cameras and what software do you use?

We've got an old Foscam FI9810W security camera with IR and pan/tilt (but no
zoom). We did have two, but one recently started rebooting after being up
for about 30 seconds - long enough to confirm that everything seems to be
working OK but still it reboots.

Up to now we've used the motion sensing and alert-to-email facilities built
into the camera, but it would be nice to be able to record video when the
motion sensing detects movement - ideally with buffering so as to capture
the few seconds leading up to the motion triggering.

I've used iSpy on Windows for this. It works OK, but you need a paid
subscription to enable the sending of an alert email, and it only
takes/emails one photo, whereas the camera's built-in monitoring
takes/emails five in rapid succession.

I was hoping to find some good free software for the Pi, preferably as an
installable package rather than a complete OS build, so I can run it
alongside other things like the weather-station or PVR software.

We'll probably get a couple of higher-resolution cameras: the Foscam is
640x480 and even that is heavily compressed.

Since the Foscam can run from a (big) USB battery, I've thought about
setting it up outside on the lawn somewhere to watch for nocturnal
wildlife - limited only by the range of the wifi!

druck

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 7:01:26 AM10/30/21
to
On 30/10/2021 10:22, Ian wrote:
> On 2021-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>> did with Pis.
>
> 23 to date. Here goes...

You've beaten me, 17 plus a couple of spare Zeros and my original now
retired 1B 256MB.

Name Type Location Uses
------ ----- ----------- -------------------------------------------
RPi-S 4B Study Development machine and SSH gateway
RPi-RO 4B Study RISC OS machine
RPi-RA Zero Study Robot arm controller and camera
RPi-Z Zero2 Study Touch screen and prototyping board
RPi-B1 4B Bedroom 1 TV/media and temperature sensor
RPi-B2 4B Bedroom 2 TV/media and temperature sensor
RPi-B3 Zero Bedroom 3 child monitor camera and temperature sensor
RPi-B4 Zero Bedroom 4 child monitor camera and temperature sensor
RPi-L 4B Living room TV/media and temperature sensor
RPi-K 2B Kitchen TV/media and temperature sensor
RPi-F 2B Family room Pan tilt camera and temperature sensor
RPi-N 4B Cupboard NAS server
RPi-A 3B+ Attic ADSB plane tracking and temperature sensor
RPi-G 1B Garage Garage door sensor and temperature sensor
RPi-D Zero Driveway External camera
RPi-X 3B Shed Weather station and garden/pool camera
RPi-P 3B Off site Backup server

---druck

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 10:42:54 AM10/30/21
to
Zero W with hifiberry DAC feeding a 200W hifi fed from house server
and internet radio via own webpage for control


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

alister

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 11:01:38 AM10/30/21
to
On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:16:57 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 28/10/2021 10:43, gareth evans wrote:
>> On 28/10/2021 10:05, gareth evans wrote:
>>> Multicore 64 bit processor and 1/2 GB RAM for £15 ! ! ! ! ! !!
>>>
>>> When I set out as an assembly software engineer on a PDP11 with 32 KB
>>> Core Store and paper tape operations, it cost about £10K whereas my
>>> annual salary as a graduate beginner was about £1350 PA, way back in
>>> 1972 and I thought that I was the bees' knees back then!
>>>
>>>
>> Oops, forgot the ...
>>
>> https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2?
mc_cid=d871881b1e&mc_eid=22518990c8
>>
>>
> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution looking for a
> problem :-)

Looks like it may replace the 3A+ as the popular solution for all but the
most demanding robotics projects




--
Griffin's Thought:
When you starve with a tiger, the tiger starves last.

alister

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 11:14:34 AM10/30/21
to
On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:48:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 28/10/2021 01:32, paul lee wrote:
>> TN> well its a zero W with a tad more oomph...another solution
>> looking for a TN> problem :-)
>>
>> Oh, I've got several planned already that will love more horsepower in
>> the same Zero footprint.
>>
>> I can't wait to receive a few.
>>
>>
> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
> did with Pis.
>
> Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
> from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
> int;erface as the user interface

Pi400: used for personal web & twitter access whilst I am at work
Pi4B: used as a Kodi Media playback
Pi4B: with touch screen, mainly used with a Bitscope as a DSO
Pi3B+: Another Kodi Playback device
Pi3B+: Web application developement server
Pi2B: WEb Server running Wordpress
Pi3A+: Octo print server
Pi3a+: Robot tank & test platform for Piwars
PiZero: Bought by mistake, currently used as xmas decoration
PiZeroW: Internet radio (pimoroni Pirate radio)
PiZeroW: Hexapod robot (re-capitated Tobbie)
PizeroW: Gyro Stabalised Mecanum Rover

+ Undefined(as yet) 3* Pi3a+ (1 on loan), 2 x PiZeroW, 1X Pi4(2gb)
also have a number of dead units due to wiring mishaps (pi3a+, Pi2B & at
least 2 PiZeroW

My Name is Alister & I am a Pi-Aholic



--
Post office will not deliver without proper postage.

alister

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 11:16:50 AM10/30/21
to
& I have just upgraded the mecanum robot to PiZero2W & have another one
of those in the spares bin




--
We all know Linux is great... it does infinite loops in 5 seconds.
- Linus Torvalds about the superiority of Linux on the Amsterdam
Linux
Symposium

David Higton

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 5:23:25 PM10/30/21
to
In message <slio0p$7nc$1...@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
> >
> > I have an old Pi running my central heating and hot water system. Home
> > brew software, running on RISC OS. Includes web interface and voice
> > control.
> >
> Thought about doing that, but realised if I need to sell the house, it
> would be a downside.

Fortunately I kept all the TRV heads, and the old Hive controller, so
I should be able to return the system to pretty much like it was when
I bought the house.

I should perhaps add that my system controls 12 wireless TRV heads,
each of which is individually controllable and has its own schedule or
profile of setpoint settings. I get the heat to move with us around
the house during the day.

David

Pancho

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 6:16:33 PM10/30/21
to
On 30/10/2021 10:59, NY wrote:

> I've used iSpy on Windows for this. It works OK, but you need a paid
> subscription to enable the sending of an alert email, and it only
> takes/emails one photo, whereas the camera's built-in monitoring
> takes/emails five in rapid succession.
> > I was hoping to find some good free software for the Pi, preferably as
> an installable package rather than a complete OS build, so I can run it
> alongside other things like the weather-station or PVR software.
>

motioneye. I run docker image ccrisan/motioneye:master-armhf.

It's not as good as iSpy on motion detection over a garden with grass,
hedge and plants. I suspect that is due to the rpi4 arm cpu being
underpowered. However, maybe it is like KODI if you get a bespoke OS
build it may work better.


John Aldridge

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 7:53:35 PM10/30/21
to
In article <slio2f$7nc$2...@dont-email.me>, t...@invalid.invalid says...
>
> On 29/10/2021 22:47, John Aldridge wrote:
> > Wildlife camera (Motion)
>
> Id be interested in hearing more about that.

All pretty straightforward... one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015VE4KP0

attached to an RPi (a 3B+, though a 4 would probably be an improvement),
running

https://motion-project.github.io/index.html

The camera mostly works pretty well, though it seems to hunt between
exposure settings and having the IR filter in or out at some points
during dusk and dawn.

The built-in IR illuminators have a range of 3-4 metres.

It's been outdoors for a few weeks now, including some heavy rain, and
the waterproofing is holding OK up so far.

--
John

druck

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 7:55:47 AM10/31/21
to
On 31/10/2021 00:53, John Aldridge wrote:

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015VE4KP0
> The built-in IR illuminators have a range of 3-4 metres.

That's quite good as it as the lens is not behind the same cover as the
LEDs, so doesn't suffer from back scatter.

I tried putting a Pi Zero and IR cut cameras with side LED illuminators
in a clear fronted weatherproof box, but all you got was glare. I
removed them and am now using a separate 12V IR illuminator, which you
can get in a verity of sizes (both power and coverage angle) to suit
your needs.

---druck

Anssi Saari

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 6:58:33 AM11/1/21
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what
> they did with Pis.

I have only one Pi (3B+) currently working and it has only one job,
running a Radius server for my home network. Eventually I'll likely
move that to my new router, once I get it configured.

Another Pi (3B) I have used to connect an old USB printer on my home
network so it ran CUPS and Samba. It never worked well but with my
printing needs it was good enough and I didn't want to fiddle with
it. This worked until recently, now the Pi answers pings but won't print
and I can't connect to CUPS or ssh. I guess I'll autopsy it at some
point.

Martin Gregorie

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 9:10:42 AM11/1/21
to
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>> did with Pis.

I have only one Pi in use, an early 512Kb model B2 that I use fairly
infrequently for development work.

I also have a second Pi 2B, a Zero-W and a PICO sitting on the shelf
waiting for me to get a round tuit to work on the project they were
bought for: a programmable timer for use on electric powered free flight
model aircraft. The Pi 2B will be fitted with a TFT touch sensitive
screen and used as a portable controller for the timer.

Currently I'm dithering over what I'll use to implement the timer: it
could be a PICAXE M14, the Pi Zero or the PICO.

The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer BASIC,
though it does have built-in support for controlling RC servos,

The Zero and the PICO have big the advantage of being programmable in C.
The PICO looks interesting, because should be possible to use one or two
cores as dedicated servo controllers, another for communication with the
Pi used as timer controller, and still have at least one other core to
run the timer's main logic.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 9:47:16 AM11/1/21
to
On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>>> did with Pis.
>
> I have only one Pi in use, an early 512Kb model B2 that I use fairly
> infrequently for development work.
>
> I also have a second Pi 2B, a Zero-W and a PICO sitting on the shelf
> waiting for me to get a round tuit to work on the project they were
> bought for: a programmable timer for use on electric powered free flight
> model aircraft. The Pi 2B will be fitted with a TFT touch sensitive
> screen and used as a portable controller for the timer.
>
> Currently I'm dithering over what I'll use to implement the timer: it
> could be a PICAXE M14, the Pi Zero or the PICO.
>
> The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
> choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer BASIC,

Or assembler, one presumes.

Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
on an 6809.

Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
efficient

IIRC Arduinos were moderately favoured for RC usage


> though it does have built-in support for controlling RC servos,
>
> The Zero and the PICO have big the advantage of being programmable in C.
> The PICO looks interesting, because should be possible to use one or two
> cores as dedicated servo controllers, another for communication with the
> Pi used as timer controller, and still have at least one other core to
> run the timer's main logic.
>
>


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

Martin Gregorie

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 10:47:06 AM11/1/21
to
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 01/11/2021 13:10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> The PICAXE is easily the smallest, lightest and most power-efficient
>> choice, but it can only be programmed in a horrid unsigned integer
>> BASIC,
>
> Or assembler, one presumes.
>
I'm not sure about that, but I get the strong impression assembler isn't
supported by the PICAXE organisation. As you may have gathered from the
name, the thing is basically a tarted-up PIC mpu in a plastic DIP
package. Its servo support is quite nice: just write a servo position
code to the 'servo port' and the pin emits the standard RC servo wave
form: a 1-2mS pulse every 20 mS, the pulse length encoding the servo
position.

I'm uncertain whether there's any custom hardware involved: documentation
doesn't say. All I know is that the BASIC source is compiled, linked with
a binary support package (customised to match whatever PICAXE chip you're
using), the resulting binary blob is uploaded into the PICAXE device and
started.

Said compiler is meant to be run on X86 kit, but there's also a third
party X86 emulator (a qemu derivative) that lets you run the PICAXE Basic
compiler on an RPi.

> Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
> on an 6809.
>
There are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're also
quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.

Graham Trott's PL/9 (a port of PL/M to 8809 FLEX systems), because it was
very much faster than any C compiler I saw. It combined the editor,
compiler, and debugger as a single integrated package that would easily
compile surprisingly large PL/9 source modules on a 48K system.

Scott Alfter

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 1:09:19 PM11/1/21
to
In article <slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Mine simply sits there running a web server that drives a hifi system
>from music on my server or from internet radio stations. Using a web
>interface as the user interface.

I have several scattered around in different offices at work, hooked up to a
light-up button and the network. If a client starts acting unruly or
threatening, pressing the button will summon someone from security.

It's a hardware replacement for software that did the same on people's
computers by pressing a button three times. One important difference is
that it works when the computer is locked.

In hindsight, the task at hand is simple enough that it could probably be
handled by an Arduino with an Ethernet shield. (PoE would be nice, too, to
eliminate the power cable and wall wart.) On the other hand, it's simple
enough that one page of Python code is all that the Raspberry Pi needs.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Scott Alfter

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 2:24:11 PM11/1/21
to
In article <slip55$dac$1...@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 30/10/2021 03:23, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Or at least not with the software I
>> could find some time ago, everything seems to be "forked from a
>> fork of a fork" sort of stuff and there's little clear
>> documentation of the changes
>
>Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will
>solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the
>documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
>than I hacked up'

At least the script is somewhat human-parsable, so that if you can figure
out what it's doing, you stand a chance at modifying it to do what you
really need it to do.

Worse still are the YouTube videos that just click around in some
point-and-drool frontend, often with some annoying EDM or (c)rap "music"
playing in the background. Even if point-and-drool is all you know, a list
of instructions (even if it's little more than "click here, then click
there") would get the point across more succinctly. You could even throw in
a few screenshots if you must.

(I suspect there's no monetization opportunity in there, however.)

Scott Alfter

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 3:07:14 PM11/1/21
to
In article <sloul9$esn$2...@dont-email.me>,
Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:47:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
>> on an 6809.
>>
>There are reasonable C compilers for the 6809 - running under FLEX09 or
>OS-9 operating systems, but I thought they were rather slow, since
>compiler section was loaded from floppy and run in sequence. They're also
>quite old - at least the ones I tried used pre-ANSI C syntax.

cc65 is a reasonably useful cross-compiler for the 6502 that has been used
for several decently-sized projects. It targets all of the 6502-based
systems you've heard of (Apple, Commodore, Atari, Nintendo), and others that
maybe you haven't. Last I checked it doesn't produce 65816 code, but ORCA/C
is a native compiler option for the Apple IIGS that does (and I've heard
that this was used to cross-compile for the SNES back in the day)...and it's
somewhat out of scope for a discussion of 8-bit compilers. :)

David Higton

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 5:39:57 PM11/1/21
to
In message <slor53$apb$1...@dont-email.me>
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
>on an 6809.
>
>Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
>code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
>efficient

Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
in C?

But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess the
compiler was rather crude.

David

David Higton

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 5:43:24 PM11/1/21
to
In message <ehWfJ.13996$IB7....@fx02.iad>
Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:

> In article <slip55$dac$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Yes. I increasingly find that the interweb is full of 'scripts that will
> > solve your problem' and is increasingly bereft of 'this is the
> > documentation that will enable anyone else to write a better scripts
> > than I hacked up'
>
> At least the script is somewhat human-parsable, so that if you can figure
> out what it's doing, you stand a chance at modifying it to do what you
> really need it to do.

On the occasions I've looked at this sort of stuff, the major problem
is that it relies on a library, and all the interesting stuff is in
the library rather than the script.

David

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 2, 2021, 3:32:59 AM11/2/21
to
Think what I used was Introl cross running on a PDP/11 with Unix...

> Graham Trott's PL/9 (a port of PL/M to 8809 FLEX systems), because it was
> very much faster than any C compiler I saw. It combined the editor,
> compiler, and debugger as a single integrated package that would easily
> compile surprisingly large PL/9 source modules on a 48K system.
>
>
I have looked into this as a bit of curiosity. C exists for PIC CPUs,
although possibly not the pickaxe..


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 2, 2021, 4:16:16 AM11/2/21
to
And the API calls are not documented well, if at all.

> David
>


--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 2, 2021, 4:18:17 AM11/2/21
to
On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
> In message <slor53$apb$1...@dont-email.me>
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
>> on an 6809.
>>
>> Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
>> code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
>> efficient
>
> Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
> signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
> in C?
>
Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.


> But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess the
> compiler was rather crude.
>
It was. we used to inspect the assembler and gasp in horror, and rewrite
the tricky bits in assembler.

> David
>


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

druck

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Nov 2, 2021, 4:30:17 AM11/2/21
to
On 30/10/2021 17:20, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 10:48:24 +0100, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> declaimed the
> following:
>
>> in /boot/config.txt for the Pi4 to allow it to boot headless.
>>
> Other than initial configuration of a new OS image (which I do perform
> with HDMI and Logitech "Unifying" keyboard/mouse, using my puny gaming TV,
> all of my R-Pis, including both 4s (2 and 4 GB) boot without
> monitors/keyboard. I don't recall ever modifying config.txt as to monitor
> type/etc.

They should boot headless without the monitor setting, (although there
may have been issues with early Pi 4B firmware), but if you connect a
monitor after boot it will be in a low resolution mode, or show no
display at all. So it is a good idea to put in the setting for the
monitor you may have to connect when you are diagnosing any issues.

---druck

druck

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Nov 2, 2021, 4:33:42 AM11/2/21
to
On 30/10/2021 03:02, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
> scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
> architectures are.

Not really, there are 4 form factors A, B, Zero and Compute, and
different numbered generations. Tweaks to a generation get a plus sign.

---druck


druck

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Nov 2, 2021, 4:56:27 AM11/2/21
to
On 29/10/2021 14:09, David Higton wrote:
> In message <slgch5$7id$2...@dont-email.me>
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Well I for one would be interested in people actually listing what they
>> did with Pis.
>
> My main desktop computer is a Pi 3B+, running RISC OS.

You would benefit enormously from a Pi 4B. While the Pi 3B+ can run a
desktop at just about an acceptable speed, it soon hits a wall when the
1GB of memory is used. A 4GB or even better a 8GB Pi 4B can run far more
things without running out of memory, so you are really able to take
advantage of the faster processor, the USB3 to attach an SSD, and the
full gigabit Ethernet too.

---druck

A. Dumas

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Nov 2, 2021, 5:51:15 AM11/2/21
to
Not sure RISC OS can use any memory over 1 GB, though; wasn't that a
limitation? And compared to the full multi user Linux desktop it's a
very simple system and thus fast; I don't know whether you would notice
any speed difference between the Pi 3 and 4 (certainly with some tasks
but not general use, I think).

NY

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Nov 2, 2021, 6:11:25 AM11/2/21
to
"druck" <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slqsuo$poh$1...@dont-email.me...
I found that the Pi3B+ booted fine without any mod to config.txt, but the
Pi4 hung - because there was no monitor connected, I couldn't see any
messages that might have explained what the problem was. It booted as soon
as a monitor was connected to HDMI, so the message went away. :-( I found
lots of comments about it on Pi forums, together with the config.txt tweak,
so it was evidently a well-known problem.

The other tweak, to set the resolution, was my own solution: it's only a
problem if you want to access the Pi by VNC, where you want a higher
resolution that the default 640x480.

NY

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Nov 2, 2021, 6:25:02 AM11/2/21
to
"druck" <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slqufq$8br$1...@dont-email.me...
Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the
initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window) for
the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).

On the Pi4 (8 GB), the BBC News page is displayed within about 10 seconds,
of which the first 8 is waiting for the window to appear.

There is also a big difference in CPU usage (as shown by the widget on the
taskbar). On the 3B+, starting FF increases usage from about 3% to about 70%
and stays there; on the 4 it increases to about 60% but only for about 10
seconds after which it reverts to 5%.

Libre Office is much less of an issue: about 10 seconds to open Writer on
both 3B+ and 4, and negligible increase in CPU usage.

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 8:09:18 AM11/2/21
to
Thanks for looking anyway: as I said, I had a fairly careful search of
their website but only the BASIC was mentioned - that I could see anyway.
Its nice to know that I didn't miss anything.

I presume the PIC C compilers you did find were cross-compilers?

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 8:24:30 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:18:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
>> In message <slor53$apb$1...@dont-email.me>
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
>>> on an 6809.
>>>
>>> Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it
>>> generated code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it
>>> wasn't very efficient
>>
>> Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
>> signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
>> in C?
>>
> Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
> bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.
>
>
>> But, being a 6809 (my favourite of that generation), I guess the
>> compiler was rather crude.
>>
> It was. we used to inspect the assembler and gasp in horror, and rewrite
> the tricky bits in assembler.
>
That was the really nice feature of PL/9: it generated really nice code
and had a compiler option was to display generated assembler as test,
complete with opcode mnemonics, as well as your names for labels and
variables.

Its one limitation was that it didn't optimise code between PL/9
statements, IOW a statement never left variables in registers or on the
stack ready for the next statement to use.

That said, I was never able to improve code generated by even a more
complex statement and, indeed, there was only one time I managed to
rewrite a function in assembler that was significantly smaller or faster
than code generated by the PL/9 compiler. That said, doing this was
sometimes useful, since the compiler would accept blocks of assembler
embedded in in the PL/9 source. You didn't need to do that often, though,
and even then it was usually to do something really off the wall like
calling a subroutine in the ROMBUG or tweaking a UART's control registers.

Richard Kettlewell

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Nov 2, 2021, 8:58:10 AM11/2/21
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 01/11/2021 21:38, David Higton wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Trying to port standard C to an 8 bit micro is a horrid task. BTDTGTTS
>>> on an 6809.
>>>
>>> Half the time it didnt accept my syntax, and the other time it generated
>>> code so big doing everything in 16 bit integers, that it wasn't very
>>> efficient
>>
>> Didn't the compiler support other types/sizes of variable, such as
>> signed or unsigned char? Or the bits that are standard (I believe)
>> in C?
>
> Ah, but you have forgotten implicit casts.
> bytes turned into ints to be compared ISTR.

Yes, “integer promotions”. In most contexts, anything with a lower rank
than int is implicitly converted to int (or sometimes, unsigned int)
before doing anything else with it.

However that doesn’t require 16 bit operations in the object code.
char a,b,c;
a=b+c;
...can generate an 8-bit add, provided the compiler is smart enough to
spot that the top 8 bits will subsequently be discarded anyway. So
you’re into ‘quality of implementation’ questions there.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 9:09:46 AM11/2/21
to
On 02/11/2021 10:24, NY wrote:
> Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the
> initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
> for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).
>
On my new second hand HP pavilion quad i5 with SSD, time taken to load
Firefox 0.3 seconds, time taken to load BBC website 1.5 seconds.

Not bad for a 6 year old machine that outperforms anything the same
money could have bought new.

Ok there is fibre to the house now...

The killer is RAM. Firefox has memory bugs, and so too does something in
the x windows system. I have to shut down Firefox after a day or so and
the windows manager every week or so


> On the Pi4 (8 GB), the BBC News page is displayed within about 10
> seconds, of which the first 8 is waiting for the window to appear.
>
> There is also a big difference in CPU usage (as shown by the widget on
> the taskbar). On the 3B+, starting FF increases usage from about 3% to
> about 70% and stays there; on the 4 it increases to about 60% but only
> for about 10 seconds after which it reverts to 5%.

Interesting. That doesn't make sense, which is why it is interesting


--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 9:31:03 AM11/2/21
to
Yes. There seem to be two. If you have windows then there is a whole
point and click MATLAB product, and otherwise on Linux at least sdcc

"SDCC is a C compiler for the Intel MCS51 family, HC08, PIC,
GameBoy Z80, DS80S390, Z80, Z180 and STM8 microcontrollers."

To load the hex onto a PIC chip meeds a bit of extra hardware - a
Pickit-2 or summat - a board with a zero insert reusable chip socket,
and a further bit of code.
e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DollaTek-PICKIT2-Programmer-Programming-Universal/dp/B07L2TMYB7/

And how to use all this is documented here

https://hackaday.com/2010/11/03/how-to-program-pics-using-linux/


I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC with
some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its
BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.

I am glad you made me do this research because the PIC chips are cheap
and they are available in proper DIP packages and they have a load of
ADC channels - I want something to read a control board of up to 36 pots
and turn it into USB stream if I can. Speed not an issue, nor precision
- 8 bits enough. And a pair of PICs look pretty perfect.

With a few pins left over to drive some LEDS with.

If I get bored enough to revisit that project...



--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 9:35:05 AM11/2/21
to
Ah! the wonderful #asm directive. Or whatever.

I wrote loads of C libraries in assembler for X86 processors.

Its nice to mix. Dunno whether the current Gnu compilers have the
ability to 'pass through assembler to the assembler....Never had to use
assembler inside of Linux, ever.
I think even interrupt driven device drivers don't need it



--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 9:50:00 AM11/2/21
to
Back then, Richard, quality of implementation like Gnu C was a wet
dream. One assumed the compilers were buggy, and poorly built and
examining the assembler was routine if code didn't work, but it was
still faster than all assembler especially for routine stuff like string
handling and so on.

The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, around about
1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of this as
an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it as
100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And a
special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to design'...
The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to
remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and then
switch back on exit..

IIRC there was 32k of main ROM, 16k of RAM and 16K left for paged ROM.
And a digital signal processor chip that I had to write an interface to,
to do signal filtering and act as a floating point coprocessor for the
6809. slow, but faster than the 6809...

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx


Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 10:36:45 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:31:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I am not very up in this stuff but I think the pickAXE is a PIC with
> some form of bootloader and bios installed so it can compile and run its
> BASIC. So its a bit like an early home computer.
>
I didn't think that the way PICAXE program compilation & installation
works was obvious from the documentation, but actually doing it made
things a lot clearer.

It turns out that the compilation system is designed to run on an X86
system. Its output is a binary blob which is immediately loaded into the
PICAXE chip over an RS-232 serial line, where its written to EEPROM and
immediately booted up, which implies that part of the loader is hardwired
in the PICAXE chip. After that, the installed program simplt boots on
power-up. The binary support blob thats added to the compiled code is
specific to the PICAXE model being targetted - unsurprising since there
are a variety of systems packaged as 0.1" DIP or surface mount and with 8
to 40 pins. They all seem to treat pin references as name symbols rather
than hardware addresses, and similarly, different pins have different
capabilities, e.g. input, output, UART, servo driver, many being
selectable multifunction, the function wanted is selected by using the
relevant name for the pin.

The only common feature seems to be that all chips have a UART thats used
for loading the program into it and can be used to send trace and/or
debug info back to the compiler/loader package.

As I said before, its not obvious whether complex stuff like the servo
driver is implemented in hardware or is part of the binary support
blob.

IOW, I suspect that PICAXE packages have extra silicon in them compared
with bog standard PIC devices.

> I am glad you made me do this research because the PIC chips are cheap
> and they are available in proper DIP packages and they have a load of
> ADC channels - I want something to read a control board of up to 36 pots
> and turn it into USB stream if I can. Speed not an issue, nor precision
> - 8 bits enough. And a pair of PICs look pretty perfect.
>
> With a few pins left over to drive some LEDS with.
>
:-)

The PICAXE devices are still very affordable: the 14M2, which can drive
two servos and the ESC, while the 8M2 only has a single PWM output, is
still only GBP 2.70.

Apologies if I've repeated myself too much.

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 10:49:10 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:35:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> ....Never had to use
> assembler inside of Linux, ever.
>
Same here.

Probably the last assembler I wrote was to set up the device descriptors
for an OS/9 68000 system. That hardware is long gone but I'm still
running a lot of the code I wrote on it with the Sculptor 4GL package.

That's now running on one of my Linux boxes, still thinking that its
running under OS/9 68000, which is in turn running in an MC68020
emulator.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Nov 2, 2021, 10:58:46 AM11/2/21
to
Hmm. I think you are not quite right. I think that the picaxe has a bit
of boot code loaded into part of its EEPROM, and programs loaded over
the top do not erase it. Sorta like 'Noobs' a bit.

But I'd guess that you could erase the lot if you stuck it in a PIC
programmer.
Price for the chip is pretty comparable with a bare PIC chip. two and a
half smackers give or take.

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

David Higton

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:07:00 AM11/2/21
to
In message <slr1mh$su3$1...@dont-email.me>
"A. Dumas" <alex...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:

> Not sure RISC OS can use any memory over 1 GB, though; wasn't that a
> limitation?

That must be a figment of your imagination.

The old 26-bit versions could use up to 64 MiB; 32-bit versions can use
up to 4 GiB. I/O has to be subtracted from that, of course.

Work is currently going on to add long page table descriptors to RISC
OS 5 so that memory over 4 GiB can be used.

David

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:07:27 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:49:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, around about
> 1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of this as
> an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it as
> 100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And a
> special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to
> design'...
> The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
> switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to
> remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and then
> switch back on exit..
>
A pity you didn't know about Microware's OS/9 OS - written at Motorola's
request to show off the 6809, OS/9 Level 2 handled all that bank
switching and remembering which bank held what code.

It was well written, so much so that OS/9 Level 1 (no bank switching) was
very easily ported to the MC680x0 mpus. I used OS/9 for years. It was
quite the most bugfree OS I've ever had the pleasure to use: I never
found a single bug in it.

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:08:57 AM11/2/21
to
Further to all this from 'picaxe.com'

"A PICAXE chip is a standard Microchip PIC microcontroller that has been
pre-programmed with the PICAXE bootstrap firmware code. The bootstrap
code enables the PICAXE microcontroller to be re-programmed 'in
position' directly via a simple 'three wire' download cable connection.
This eliminates the need for an (expensive) conventional PIC programmer,
making the whole download programming system a low-cost USB cable. The
same software and download cable is used for all PICAXE chip sizes and
project boards.

If you purchase 'blank' PIC chips they will not work in the PICAXE
system, as they do not contain the PICAXE firmware. Therefore always buy
pre-programmed 'PICAXE chips'."

So there you have it. Its just a pre-programmed PIC chip.

But if you can handle the £20 or less cost of the PICKIT2 programming
unit, you can create your own ...

To me its like the n00bs thing. sounded great, proved to be a pain in
the butt, reprogrammed with Raspian from a linux machine via SD card
reader and never looked back...

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

The Natural Philosopher

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:41:31 AM11/2/21
to
Shh don't go back in time and tell them - I would be out of a job!

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:44:06 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:08:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> "A PICAXE chip is a standard Microchip PIC microcontroller that has been
> pre-programmed with the PICAXE bootstrap firmware code. The bootstrap
> code enables the PICAXE microcontroller to be re-programmed 'in
> position' directly via a simple 'three wire' download cable connection.
> This eliminates the need for an (expensive) conventional PIC programmer,
> making the whole download programming system a low-cost USB cable. The
> same software and download cable is used for all PICAXE chip sizes and
> project boards.
>
Missed seeing that paragraph (or forgot I'd seen it).

> If you purchase 'blank' PIC chips they will not work in the PICAXE
> system, as they do not contain the PICAXE firmware. Therefore always buy
> pre-programmed 'PICAXE chips'."
>
Yes, thats clear, but isn't clear whether that is just the loader in
firmware. I rather think thats all it is, because:

- when I downloaded the PICAXE compiler, I got a whiole set of binaries,
each named to match one of the chipIDs:

/home/local/picaxe/bin/picaxe14m2

Alongside that are:

/home/local/picaxe/bin/qemu-i386 - the X86 emulator
/home/local/picaxe/bin/wrapper - looks like a qemu control file

/home/local/picaxe/bin there's a file

> To me its like the n00bs thing. sounded great, proved to be a pain in
> the butt, reprogrammed with Raspian from a linux machine via SD card
> reader and never looked back...
>
Agreed - when I tackle the 'timer', I'm inclined to see what I can do
with a PICO first and switch to the PICAXE only if that doesn't work out.

I wonder if anybody has got a JVM up and running on a PICO yet. That
would be really great.

Martin Gregorie

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Nov 2, 2021, 11:52:06 AM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:41:30 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 02/11/2021 15:07, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:49:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The job was a digital storage oscilloscope. Gould Advance, around
>>> about 1984 I think. As I said at the time 'if you had not thought of
>>> this as an oscilloscope with a bit of CPU in it, but had thought of it
>>> as 100Msamples/second A to D board/shift register for an IBM PC. And
>>> a special control panel, it would have been quicker and cheaper to
>>> design'...
>>> The 6809 was totally the wrong chip. We ended up with 256k of bank
>>> switched ROM, which was all horrendous. as each library routine had to
>>> remember which bank was switched in, switch in the needed one, and
>>> then switch back on exit..
>>>
>> A pity you didn't know about Microware's OS/9 OS - written at
>> Motorola's request to show off the 6809, OS/9 Level 2 handled all that
>> bank switching and remembering which bank held what code.
>>
>> It was well written, so much so that OS/9 Level 1 (no bank switching)
>> was very easily ported to the MC680x0 mpus. I used OS/9 for years. It
>> was quite the most bugfree OS I've ever had the pleasure to use: I
>> never found a single bug in it.
>>
>>
> Shh don't go back in time and tell them - I would be out of a job!

I won't tell them if you won't!

BTW, OS/9 Level 1 was available commercially almost a year before the IBM
PC was launched with the <<cough>> wonderful <<cough>> PC-DOS as its only
OS.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Nov 2, 2021, 12:30:02 PM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:52:05 -0000 (UTC)
Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

> BTW, OS/9 Level 1 was available commercially almost a year before the IBM
> PC was launched with the <<cough>> wonderful <<cough>> PC-DOS as its only
> OS.

The PC standardised the small computer industry at a point somewhat
behind where everyone else had already gone well past. It was a long time
before anything that ran on it matched OS/9 or MP/M let alone unix of some
flavour on a 68000.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

druck

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Nov 2, 2021, 2:10:46 PM11/2/21
to
Sorry I can't believe I knocked out that reply without seeing the RISC
OS bit, the comments were aimed at running Linux, but some still apply.

Yes RISC OS can use over 1GB, about 3.5GB on my 4GB Pi4B. RISC OS wont
take any advantage of USB3, but an SSD is still vastly preferable to a
SD card. The increased performance of the Pi 4B over the 3B is very
obvious in use. RISC OS can make good use of the gigabit Ethernet, up to
50MB/s to and from my NAS which is a Pi 4B running Linux (using LanManFS
and LanMan90, Sunfish NFS is a bit slower). The networking performance
also makes VNC sever very usable, so most of the time I remote control
it from other machines rather than switching monitors and keyboards.

---druck

A. Dumas

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Nov 2, 2021, 2:21:10 PM11/2/21
to
druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> Sorry I can't believe I knocked out that reply without seeing the RISC
> OS bit, the comments were aimed at running Linux, but some still apply.
>
> Yes RISC OS can use over 1GB, about 3.5GB on my 4GB Pi4B. RISC OS wont
> take any advantage of USB3, but an SSD is still vastly preferable to a
> SD card. The increased performance of the Pi 4B over the 3B is very
> obvious in use. RISC OS can make good use of the gigabit Ethernet, up to
> 50MB/s to and from my NAS which is a Pi 4B running Linux (using LanManFS
> and LanMan90, Sunfish NFS is a bit slower). The networking performance
> also makes VNC sever very usable, so most of the time I remote control
> it from other machines rather than switching monitors and keyboards.

Alrighty; never mind my riscos-ignorant reply, then. (I admit: I hate it.)

Scott Alfter

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Nov 2, 2021, 2:55:25 PM11/2/21
to
In article <slqt55$qv7$1...@dont-email.me>, druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:
>On 30/10/2021 03:02, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
>> scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
>> architectures are.
>
>Not really, there are 4 form factors A, B, Zero and Compute, and
^^^^^^^

...and there are two different flavors of compute modules: one that goes in
an SODIMM slot and another (introduced with the CM4) that has a couple of
100-pin connectors on the bottom for mating with the carrier board. That
brings the count to 5.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?



Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 2, 2021, 3:09:15 PM11/2/21
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On 2021-11-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:52:05 -0000 (UTC)
> Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
>
>> BTW, OS/9 Level 1 was available commercially almost a year before the IBM
>> PC was launched with the <<cough>> wonderful <<cough>> PC-DOS as its only
>> OS.
>
> The PC standardised the small computer industry at a point somewhat
> behind where everyone else had already gone well past. It was a long time
> before anything that ran on it matched OS/9 or MP/M let alone unix of some
> flavour on a 68000.

Not to mention setting keyboard design back ten years.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

Charlie Gibbs

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Nov 2, 2021, 3:09:16 PM11/2/21
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On 2021-11-02, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the
> initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
> for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).

And that, ladies and germs, is why the first thing I do with a
new web browser is to configure it to start up on a blank page.
I want to be able to go anywhere when I start up, and usually do.
In my case, having a home page would be like having your car
automatically go to the Walmart across town when you really
want to go to a specialty store three blocks away in the
opposite direction.

NY

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Nov 2, 2021, 4:24:55 PM11/2/21
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"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message
news:v1ggJ.26543$Kw9....@fx45.iad...
> On 2021-11-02, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Try running Firefox on a 3B+ (1 GB). It takes about 20 seconds for the
>> initial window to appear and about 55 seconds (35 from initial window)
>> for the BBC News page to appear (this is the browser's home page).
>
> And that, ladies and germs, is why the first thing I do with a
> new web browser is to configure it to start up on a blank page.
> I want to be able to go anywhere when I start up, and usually do.
> In my case, having a home page would be like having your car
> automatically go to the Walmart across town when you really
> want to go to a specialty store three blocks away in the
> opposite direction.

You'd still get the delay for every new web page - it would just be in two
parts: a standard delay to display the empty-page window, and then a second
delay whenever a new page (probably a new web server) is requested.

I tend to set my browsers to load a standard new page because I usually want
to see what's been happening in the world whenever I open the browser or a
new tab of the browser. But I can see that it's a matter of personal
preference. Some people prefer to bring up Google or some other search
engine by default. Some want a clean sheet.


The important message is that the 3B+ runs FF painfully slowly and with a
heavy CPU load, whereas the 4 runs it fairly quickly - still slower to load
the browser and a page than my old Windows 7 PC, but not painfully so.

Computer Nerd Kev

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Nov 2, 2021, 5:27:31 PM11/2/21
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druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:
> On 30/10/2021 03:02, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> PS. Model A, Model B, 2, Zero, 3 Model B+, Zero 2. This naming
>> scheme is getting to be almost as confusing as ARM CPU
>> architectures are.
>
> Not really, there are 4 form factors A, B, Zero and Compute,
> and different numbered generations.

Maybe they could've had something if they sticked to letters for
the form factors and numbers for the versions, but Zero confuses
the two and then Compute goes off in its own direction. Adding 'W'
at the end to indicate wireless support makes sense at least, but
then they're not consistent with that either because they don't do
it with the A+B boards.

> Tweaks to a generation get a plus sign.

Which people on the internet forget to mention, and that's caused
me trouble before.

Pi 400 is on a better track - call the next revision the 401, for
example. Shame the Pi 4 couldn't have been called the 410, then the
keyboard model the 420 (leaving 400 for the Model A). Or better,
410W and 420W because they shouldn't selectively drop the 'W'
either.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Anssi Saari

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Nov 3, 2021, 5:04:12 AM11/3/21
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Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> writes:

> cc65 is a reasonably useful cross-compiler for the 6502 that has been used
> for several decently-sized projects. It targets all of the 6502-based
> systems you've heard of (Apple, Commodore, Atari, Nintendo), and others that
> maybe you haven't.

Also, IAR and Keil both produced C compilers for Intel's 8051. IAR also
for the Z80. Since these are (or were) commercial products one assumes
they produced decent code. I was actually involved in a project with a
Z80 target and IAR's compiler back when. As I recall, there were some
issues like it deciding to link in "a few" extra things so that the
binary was maybe 3x the size of the ROM it was meant to fit in. But
otherwise the project didn't have issues with software development as
far as I remember.
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