Connecting mouse and keyboard on POi Zero

[Jack Fearnley]

I just bought a RPi Zero. In order to connect a mouse and a keyboard for
initial set up it needs a powered USB hub.

This simply does not work.

The system works with keyboard directly connected, or mouse directly
connected.

Keyboard alone or mouse alone connected via the hub does not work.

The hub itself works fine when attached to my main desktop.

One of the solutions would be to buy a keyboard with touch pad included
but I don't want to do that since I would have no further use for it
after initialization.

I would appreciate any ideas anyone might have.

Best Regards,
Jack Fearnley

[Kiwi User]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:28:48 +0000, Jack Fearnley wrote:

> I just bought a RPi Zero. In order to connect a mouse and a keyboard
> for initial set up it needs a powered USB hub.
>
> This simply does not work.
>
> The system works with keyboard directly connected, or mouse directly
> connected.
>
> Keyboard alone or mouse alone connected via the hub does not work.
>

Disclaimer: I don't own a Pi zero, only spend 5 mins looking at pics and
reading the associated text.

So, how did you connect the hub to the PiZero?

If its connected to the power socket (the microUSB socket nearest the
corner), then that's not going to work because that socket is only for
use as a power inlet. There is only one data-capable micro-USB socket:
the one to the left of the power socket when the sockets are on the edge
nearest to you.

Apparently the data-capable USB socket can also power the Pi zero, so
shifting the connection to it should do the trick.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Jack Fearnley]

The hub is connected to the data-capable micro-USB socket, certainly not
to the power socket. The hub is powered by a separate power supply.

As I said, whenever the mouse or the keyboard is directly connected to
the data-capable micro-USB socket it works. The problem is that, without
the hub, I cannot connect both.

Jack

[Michael J. Mahon]

Have you considered getting a keyboard with touchpad to use just to set
things up?

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

[Kiwi User]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:47:03 +0000, Jack Fearnley wrote:

> As I said, whenever the mouse or the keyboard is directly connected to
> the data-capable micro-USB socket it works. The problem is that, without
> the hub, I cannot connect both.
>

Run it headless and leave the screen/keyboard/mouse connected to your
your PC. There are plenty of tutorials on the 'net describing how to do
this - depending on your electronics knowledge this may be easier than
trouble-shooting the various items involved.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:37:44 +0000 (UTC), Kiwi User wrote:

>> The problem is that, without the hub, I cannot connect both.

The (known good) PSU for the hub is switched on and plugged into all
the correct places it needs to be plugged in isn't it?...

Command lines don't need a mouse...

> Run it headless and leave the screen/keyboard/mouse connected to your
> your PC.

Mr Fearnley doesn't say if it's Pi Zero or Pi Zero W. The former will
need a USB WiFi dongle or serial to USB console cable, or an ENC28J60
based ethernet board to go headless.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Kiwi User]

Mr Fearnley mentioned having a Pi Zero, not a Pi Zero W, so its
reasonable to assume that he has the former.

Searching for "Pi Zero headless" finds articles covering both Pi Zero
variants. Those articles identify the required dongle(s) along with
directions for configuring the combination and making it work.

[Chris Elvidge]

Is it a USB3 powered hub? Reports around that Pi(USB2) -> Hub(USB3) ->
Keybd/Mouse(USB2) doesn't work. USB3 connected to hub works. Keybd/Mouse
connected to USB2 hub also works (I think!!)


--

Chris Elvidge, England

[Jack Fearnley]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:24:01 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

It's a RPi zero W so, in principle, I could do the whole thing headless
if I knew how :-)

Also, if I was completely fluent in Linux commands I could probably do it
with keyboard alone.

Jack

[Jack Fearnley]

This looks like the answer! I checked the hub I bought today and it is
USB3. Details details!

Jack

[The Natural Philosopher]

Or a wireless keyboard?


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 02:52:55 -0000 (UTC), Jack Fearnley wrote:

>> Mr Fearnley doesn't say if it's Pi Zero or Pi Zero W. The former
will
>> need a USB WiFi dongle or serial to USB console cable, or an
ENC28J60
>> based ethernet board to go headless.
>
> It's a RPi zero W so, in principle, I could do the whole thing headless
> if I knew how :-)

With a Pi Zero W and assuming that you have a WiFi access point on
your LAN, just google and pick one of the many sets of instructions.
That'll get you at least command line access.

How you proceed from there depends on what you want to use the Zero
for. I expect you'll also be able to find how to run a WIMP
enviroment over the WiFi link but I've never played with that. All my
Raspberries are headless and command line only (ish one runs Kodi).

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:58:28 +0000 (UTC), Kiwi User wrote:

> Mr Fearnley mentioned having a Pi Zero, not a Pi Zero W, so its
> reasonable to assume that he has the former.

Reasonable but wrong... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Chris Elvidge]

Looking at the RPi forum
(https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74695) "markatlnk"
(April 2014, so this is a known problem) reports that it is USB1.1
devices that are the problem when hooked to a USB3 hub. Keyboards/Mice
are normally 1.1 not 2, my mistake. He reckons USB2 devices work.


--

Chris Elvidge, England

[Chris Elvidge]

On 19/01/2018 03:31 am, Jack Fearnley wrote:

See here: https://thepihut.com/products/7-port-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi


--

Chris Elvidge, England

[nev young]

On 18/01/18 19:28, Jack Fearnley wrote:
> I just bought a RPi Zero. In order to connect a mouse and a keyboard for
> initial set up it needs a powered USB hub.
>
> This simply does not work.
>

Can't help with your problem other than to re-assure you that it does work.

Here I power the PiZero from the hub[1] and plug the hub in to the
PiZero micro usb port. Connected to that hub is a k/b, a mouse, a wifi
dongle, a usb disk, a usb-serial converter and a usb camera. Which are
all recognised and working.

Also works with a PiZero W without the need for a wifi dongle.

When I'm done I just move one cable and all the usb devices are
connected to my main PC.


[1] a seven port powered hub of dubious origin.

--
nev
getting the wrong stick end since 1953

[Jack Fearnley]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:39:18 +0000, Chris Elvidge wrote:


>>>>
>>>>
>>> Is it a USB3 powered hub? Reports around that Pi(USB2) -> Hub(USB3) ->
>>> Keybd/Mouse(USB2) doesn't work. USB3 connected to hub works.
>>> Keybd/Mouse connected to USB2 hub also works (I think!!)
>>
>> This looks like the answer! I checked the hub I bought today and it is
>> USB3. Details details!
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
> See here:
> https://thepihut.com/products/7-port-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi

This would be fine if I lived in England. Here in Montreal I'll go to my
friendly computer store and try to exchange my powered USB3 hub (which I
previously exchanged for a non powered hub) for a powered USB2 hub.
That's assuming they are still stocked.

Otherwise I will try to do without the mouse and check out the urls
kindly provided.

Thanks to all.

Jack

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/01/18 15:28, Jack Fearnley wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:39:18 +0000, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Is it a USB3 powered hub? Reports around that Pi(USB2) -> Hub(USB3) ->
>>>> Keybd/Mouse(USB2) doesn't work. USB3 connected to hub works.
>>>> Keybd/Mouse connected to USB2 hub also works (I think!!)
>>>
>>> This looks like the answer! I checked the hub I bought today and it is
>>> USB3. Details details!
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>> See here:
>> https://thepihut.com/products/7-port-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi
>
> This would be fine if I lived in England. Here in Montreal I'll go to my
> friendly computer store and try to exchange my powered USB3 hub (which I
> previously exchanged for a non powered hub) for a powered USB2 hub.
> That's assuming they are still stocked.
>

why not get a fucking radio keyboard and mouse? just one USB dongle.
$20. Job done

> Otherwise I will try to do without the mouse and check out the urls
> kindly provided.
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> Jack
>
>
>

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

[Jack Fearnley]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:29:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>>>
>>> See here:
>>> https://thepihut.com/products/7-port-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi
>>
>> This would be fine if I lived in England. Here in Montreal I'll go to
>> my friendly computer store and try to exchange my powered USB3 hub
>> (which I previously exchanged for a non powered hub) for a powered USB2
>> hub. That's assuming they are still stocked.
>>
> why not get a fucking radio keyboard and mouse? just one USB dongle.
> $20. Job done

I might just do that. Then again, why don't I just go out and buy a great
big computer with all the bell and whistles? Oh yes, I've already got
one (or two, or three). The remarkable thing about the RPi zero W is
that it is small and inexpensive. The kit was $50Can. I really don't want
to spend the same amount just to get the darn thing started.

Oops, did I just say 'darn'. Please excuse the vulgar language.

Jack

[The Natural Philosopher]

well I have at leats three radio mice and keyboards that are unsusable
because the caps are worn black.
If you were in the UK youi could have the lot
And spend time sticking new letters on them


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

[mm0fmf]

On 19/01/2018 15:43, Jack Fearnley wrote:
> Then again, why don't I just go out and buy a great
> big computer with all the bell and whistles?

Well plug the SDcard for the PiZeroW in those big computers and setup
the OS to enable Wifi etc. using them. Stuff it back into the Pi and
then connect to it over Wifi. Takes a few minutes and you're done and no
need to faff about like a fart in bottle trying to find a set of
suitable cheap keyboards and hubs that work.

The hub problem was using USB1.1 devices on USB2 hubs and a failure to
support split transactions correctly. A USB3 hub *should* just work as
the cable connecting wont connect the USB3 pins just the USB2 pins on
the Pi. In which case the hub's USB2 phy should be in use and any
competent USB3 hub controller will be in USB2 mode. Of course standards
compliance and cheap Chinese shit are, very often, mutually exclusive!

[Henri Derksen]

Hello David,

JF>>> The problem is that, without the hub, I cannot connect both.

Yes you can, with a wireless keyboard and mouse, e.g. my Logitech MK220
does work good with my Pi 3B.
It has an USB2 2.4 GHz dongle for both keyboard and mouse (No BT).
The Pi Zero W has both WiFi and Blue Tooth, so that can be used too for human
input devices.

Does someone know a good BT keyboard and mouse combination that works with both
Raspbian Linux and RISC OS with a Pi 3B of even Zero W?

DL> The (known good) PSU for the hub is switched on and plugged into all
DL> the correct places it needs to be plugged in isn't it?...

I tested a 4 port USB2 hub from Digitus slim spider part DA-70216 on a Pi Zero
(without W) from a fried at the computerclub and that worked ok.

DL> Command lines don't need a mouse...

When started in the desktop,
you mostly have to open/start a commandline window first ;-).

>> Run it headless and leave the screen/keyboard/mouse connected to your
>> your PC.

Does SSH from an other machine not work?

DL> Mr Fearnley doesn't say if it's Pi Zero or Pi Zero W. The former will
DL> need a USB WiFi dongle or serial to USB console cable, or an ENC28J60
DL> based ethernet board to go headless.

With the same friend in NL I tried my Eminent EM110 USB from/to RJ45 EtherNet
dongle too at his first Raspberry Pi Zero (no W(ay)), and that worked ok,
even in combination with the Digitus slim spider USB2 Hub.
That Eminent EM1010 was one of the first USB2 from/to RJ45 dongles that worked
good on the BeagleBoard and Beagle Board XM, both in Linux and RISC OS.
Hopes this helps to get connected with the Pi Zero, or Zero W.

The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A, USB2-RJ45 dongle etc.
And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.

Another friend uses a dedicated Pi 1B with Linux for his sunpanel power meting
and to update that info to a website. If configured well, it can run headless.

Henri.

[Jack Fearnley]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:38:12 +0000, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>>>>
>>> Is it a USB3 powered hub? Reports around that Pi(USB2) -> Hub(USB3) ->
>>> Keybd/Mouse(USB2) doesn't work. USB3 connected to hub works.
>>> Keybd/Mouse connected to USB2 hub also works (I think!!)
>>
>> This looks like the answer! I checked the hub I bought today and it is
>> USB3. Details details!
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
> Looking at the RPi forum
> (https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74695) "markatlnk"
> (April 2014, so this is a known problem) reports that it is USB1.1
> devices that are the problem when hooked to a USB3 hub. Keyboards/Mice
> are normally 1.1 not 2, my mistake. He reckons USB2 devices work.

I have exchanged my USB3 hub for a USB2 hub and now everything works!

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

I now have another problem with ssh connection but I'll start a new
thread for that.

Jack

[rickman]

Henri Derksen wrote on 1/18/2018 11:18 PM:
> Hello David,
>
> JF>>> The problem is that, without the hub, I cannot connect both.
>
> Yes you can, with a wireless keyboard and mouse, e.g. my Logitech MK220
> does work good with my Pi 3B.
> It has an USB2 2.4 GHz dongle for both keyboard and mouse (No BT).
> The Pi Zero W has both WiFi and Blue Tooth, so that can be used too for human
> input devices.
>
> Does someone know a good BT keyboard and mouse combination that works with both
> Raspbian Linux and RISC OS with a Pi 3B of even Zero W?

"Good" and Bluetooth don't go together. I bought a Bluetooth mouse just so
I wouldn't need to deal with a dongle. It sucks just like every other
Bluetooth device I've ever tried to connect to the PC. When anything on the
computer hits the hard drive the BT mouse will stumble and stutter. I can
use the same mouse with the dongle and it doesn't do that unless the entire
computer is hosed.

My BT earpiece on my phone works ok. I've never had any other piece of BT
gear work worth a damn on a PC and that includes three PCs and three OS.

The Logitech dongles are all multi device, keyboard and mouse, so once you
have one Logitech dongle it works for all their devices. They aren't budget
priced, but they work... until they don't anymore. I've gone through a
number of Logitech mice and am back with the budget mice because of the
pricing.

> The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
> conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
> i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A, USB2-RJ45 dongle etc.
> And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.

That's true of the rPi anyway as the cost of the keyboard, mouse, monitor
and even a decent power supply ends up being significantly pricey compared
to the rPi itself.

The zero doesn't need a microHDMI to HDMI converter, just have a suitable
cable. Everything I have is micro USB using a standard cable unless it's a
keyboard or mouse. You can use the zero headless just as well as anything.
I guess costing a PC kinda blows the budget if you want to count that.

What is the RJ-45 for? You mean an Ethernet USB converter?

You can always develop you app on a regular rPi then use the zero in the end
device.

> Another friend uses a dedicated Pi 1B with Linux for his sunpanel power meting
> and to update that info to a website. If configured well, it can run headless.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:18:00 +1200, Henri Derksen wrote:

> DL> Command lines don't need a mouse...
>
> When started in the desktop,
> you mostly have to open/start a commandline window first ;-).

I only run Raspbian "Lite" on my Raspberries so don't use the
desktop. But even so I find it hard to believe that you can't open a
comandline window purely using the keyboard,

> The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
> conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
> i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A, USB2-RJ45
> dongle etc.

What on earth do you want all that for? All you need is an ENC20J60
10BaseT ethernet board (approx GBP5.00) a PSU and a handful of jumper
wires.

> And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.

True but a zero is 1/10th (ish) the cost

--
Cheers
Dave.

[A. Dumas]

On 20/01/2018 22:34, rickman wrote:
> You can use the zero headless just as
> well as anything.

Just remember, after burning an SD-card with a fresh Raspbian image but
before ejecting it, to:

1. enable SSH access by creating a file "ssh" (I think "ssh.txt" also
works) on the card. On Windows or macOS, the FAT32 formatted /boot
partition of the card will be the only partition mounted and this is
where you create the file. The other partition is ext4 and normally
unreadable on Win/Mac. So don't create a(nother) "boot" subdirectory.

2. preconfigure access to your 2.4 GHz WPA/WPA2 wifi network by creating
a "wpa_supplicant.conf" file on that same partition, with your network
credentials:

ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
update_config=1
country=XY
network={
ssid="WifiName"
psk="WifiPassword"
}

The first two lines I simply copied, not sure if they're essential. Use
your actual two-letter country code, like UK or US. You can add more
networks, just add another "network={...}" configuration; they will be
tried in order of appearance in the file. Instead of the clear-text
password you can also use the 64-char hex number output of
"wpa_passphrase WifiName" (it will ask for the password). When first
booting, the .conf file will be removed from the unsecure /boot
partition and saved in /etc/wpa_supplicant/ with only root access.
(Except, you know, sudo doesn't require a password on standard Raspbian
... so use the wpa_passphrase hash whenever possible.)

[A. Dumas]

UK consumer prices incl VAT for bare boards are £4.58 (Zero), £9.16
(ZeroW), £32 (Pi3) or 1 : 2 : 7. Standard prices are in USD excl tax, in
the same progression: $5, $10, $35.

[Theo]

Henri Derksen <nospam.Hen...@f1208.n280.z2.binkp.net> wrote:
> Does someone know a good BT keyboard and mouse combination that works with
> both Raspbian Linux and RISC OS with a Pi 3B of even Zero W?

RISC OS has no Bluetooth HID support, so the wireless USB dongle you mention
is the best bet. I've found the Logitech ones generally good.

Theo

[Henri Derksen]

Hello Rick,

HD>> The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
HD>> conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
HD>> i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A,
HD>> USB2-RJ45 dongle etc.
HD>> And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.

RC> That's true of the rPi anyway as the cost of the keyboard, mouse,
RC> monitor and even a decent power supply ends up being significantly pricey
RC> compared to the rPi itself.

Yes, that's true, but that is not what I wanted to tell.
I was comparing the costs of the Pi Zero and conversion cables to the regular
Pi 1B, so to connect the same I/O cables (i.e. HDMI, USB2 and RJ45 EtherNet)
as I would use on a normal Pi. So I can change a Pi 1B for a Zero in one go.
Then I need at least these three conversion cables.

RC> The zero doesn't need a microHDMI to HDMI converter, just have a
RC> suitable cable.

I already have two normal HDMI to HDMI, and two HDMI to DVI-D cables. So for
a Pi Zero I only need a Micro HDMI-male to normal HDMI-Female, you see?
With that short converters I can use the normal cables.
Or should I also buy a micro-HDMi to normal HDMI-male for the Pi Zero?
and a Micro-HDMI to DVI-D one, that's also double ;-(
So one simple short micro HDMI tot HDMI female will do right.
Then I can choose to use the HDMI to HDMI cable, or the HDMI to DVI-D version
incombination with that converter cable.

Of course I also have a normal HDMI to VGA converter for use at VGA monitors
at computerclubs etc. Then I do not need to carry a monitor with me.

RC> Everything I have is micro USB using a standard cable unless it's a
RC> keyboard or mouse. You can use the zero headless just as well as anything.

I know, but I never use computers headless.
Second, I do not have a smarth phone, so no micro usb needed ;-).
The only micro USB I need are for the Pi's, and my Garmin 2595LMT
autoroutenavigator.

RC> I guess costing a PC kinda blows the budget if you want to count that.

Yes, but in reality you have to spend that to get a working combination.

Here people need inland ECDIS on their ships, and I made a solution with a Pi
3B and sell a complete configured microSDcard to them.
Then they want to know what to buy else to get a complete system.
So I made a complete description of the materials needed to get a full stand
alone working ECDIS Pi system. If you count everything, a laptop costs more.

RC> What is the RJ-45 for? You mean an Ethernet USB converter?

Yes, is a simply Emiment EM1010 USB2 to RJ45 10/100bT EtherNet converter.

RC> You can always develop you app on a regular rPi then use the zero in the
RC> end device.

Yes, I know.
I have 5 Pi's; 2 x 1B, 1B+, 2B and 3B, but no Zero.
The Pi's 1B and 1B+ are running RISC OS, and the 2B and 3B are running Raspbian
and Ubuntu Linux.
On the raspbian version with help I have compiled and installed OpenCPN 4.6.1
with OpenSeaMap and S57 charts for Inland ECDIS as asked by European law.
For the data transfer a FTDI USB2A to RS232c cable is needed between the
Class A inland AIS-transponder and the Pi or laptop computer.
We also find out a cheap 12 or 24 Vdc= to 5 Vdc= converter for powering the Pi
3B. It is silly to first convert the ship's dc to normal power 230 Vac~ 50 Hz,
and then convert that back to +5 Vdc=/2.5 Adc= for the Pi 3B.

Now I am thinking to set up a Pi as a FidoNet mailer as a plan C.
The amount of kilo Watts will dramatically drop, compared to this current
FidoNet node on a 80486 pc with DOS 5 and an analoge V34 POTS modem.
First I have to create (buy or build) an USB HDD, because when used
intensively, a micro SDcard will soon die.
Second I need to know which Linux software I can use?
For RISC OS, I could use !ROSBink and have to find out what other software
package as a tosser, scanner and mail-editor.
I have a good FidoNet Point package !WimpLink that can be combined with
!ROSBink, but I can not use that as a FidoNet Node.
The other disadvantage is, that I then have to move mailpackets between
software programs and also have to do some manual setup of FLO-files etc.
for transferring every day.
So I think the more recent Linux software will be a better choice for
automatically importing and exporting FidoNet messages with less work?
There is much to find out and learn, but my physical energy is very limited.
So it is a slow proces, and other things in real life have higher priorities.

Henri.

[Henri Derksen]

Hello Dave,

HD>> The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
HD>> conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
HD>> i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A, USB2-RJ45
HD>> dongle etc.

DL> What on earth do you want all that for?

To exchange a normal Pi for the Pi Zero with the same standard cables.
So you need conversion cables for the small connectors to the normal
connectors. That's were I put the finger on.

DL> All you need is an ENC20J60 10BaseT ethernet board (approx GBP5.00)
DL> a PSU and a handful of jumper wires.

I donot know the ENC20J60 10bT EtherNet board.
And why jumper wires?
They also costs money, or did you get that free?
Besides that, the Eminent EM1010 USB2A to/from RJ45 10/100bT EtherNet adapter
has also the high speeds of 100 mBit, instead of the ENC20J60.
The EM1010 costs Euro 20. It worked direct on a Pi Zero of a friend of mine.
Of course the 4 port USB2 hub was needed too.

HD>> And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.

DL> True but a zero is 1/10th (ish) the cost

A Pi 2B costs Euro 35 here, and a Pi Zero Euro 6.
A Pi 3B costs Euro 38 here, and a Pi Zero W Euro 11, that is not 1/10th !
The price of at least the microHDMI to normal HDMI female,
and from micro USB OTG to normal USB2A female together costs more
than the difference in price between the normal Pi 2B and the Pi Zero,
or between the Pi 3B and the Pi Zero W.
For the Zero without WiFi, you also need a simple USB2 to RJ45 10/100bT
EtherNet adapter, i.e. the Eminent EM1010 for instance, Euro 20.
That's what I wanted to show to all of you.
Simple counting he?, as learned at school ;-).
And besides that, the CPU performance is also much different between a Pi Zero
(W) and the 2B / 3B you have to count and consider too.
The Pi Zero has 512 MB, and the Pi 2B and 3B both 1 GB, a big difference!

The power supply unit, keyboard and mouse does not matter in this case,
as they are the same for both a normal Pi 3B and a Pi Zero W,
so no different prices here.
It are the extra conversion cables needed that make it more expensive.
That's my point I want to make all the time.
So I think a Pi Zero or Zero W is a weak approach, compared to a normal Pi.
"Penny wise and Pound foolisch" comes to mind ;-).
But not every one wants to see that, I have remarked here, that's a pity.
For a less asking stand alone usage, it could be an idea.

Henri.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 19:05:00 +1200, Henri Derksen wrote:

> To exchange a normal Pi for the Pi Zero with the same standard cables.

Fair enough, I always run headless and tend towards the embedded use.
My on going project is a controler for the thermal store, with solar,
wood burner and oil boiler inputs, with DHW and two CH ouputs.
That'll be a Zero, an ENC20J60, nokia LCD display, rotary encoder and
at least one solid state relay. All plugged onto a custom mother
board apart from the solid state relay(s). It's at bread board stage
but keeps evolving, I wasn't going to control the pump for the oil
boiler loop but or CH loops but we've just had the oil boiler swapped
for a condensing one and getting the return temp down low enough to
keep the thing at least a little in condensing mode is proving an
issue...

> DL> All you need is an ENC20J60 10BaseT ethernet board (approx GBP5.00)
> DL> a PSU and a handful of jumper wires.
>
> I donot know the ENC20J60 10bT EtherNet board.
> And why jumper wires?

To connect the SPI interface of the ENC20J60 board to the SPI
interface on Pi's GPIO header. At least for testing and development,
"production" would have something a little better, perhaps just
hardwired or as above a mother board.

> They also costs money, or did you get that free?

But not a lot, couple of Euro.

> Besides that, the Eminent EM1010 USB2A to/from RJ45 10/100bT EtherNet
> adapter has also the high speeds of 100 mBit, instead of the ENC20J60.

Having the ethernet port run at 1 Gbps, 100 Mbps or 10 Mbps isn't
overly relevant on a Pi's USB interface as that is limited to less
than 5 Mbps (IIRC). Not that I've seen much faster with the ENC20j60
boards.

> The EM1010 costs Euro 20. It worked direct on a Pi Zero of a friend of
> mine. Of course the 4 port USB2 hub was needed too.

ENC20J60 board and jumpers about 10 Euro. Support is built into
Raspian, just add the relevant line to /boot/config.txt and away it
goes.

> DL> True but a zero is 1/10th (ish) the cost
>
> A Pi 2B costs Euro 35 here, and a Pi Zero Euro 6.
> A Pi 3B costs Euro 38 here, and a Pi Zero W Euro 11, that is not 1/10th!

My very poor guesstimation... 1/7th would be closer (for non-W).

> And besides that, the CPU performance is also much different between a
> Pi Zero (W) and the 2B / 3B you have to count and consider too.
> The Pi Zero has 512 MB, and the Pi 2B and 3B both 1 GB, a big
> difference!

Never knowingly had a problem with lack of RAM and the only thing
that has maxed out the CPU on a Zero or Pi B was the Python number
crunching required to animate a 300 LED "neopixel" strip at
Christmas. I suspect if I learnt C and ported the Python that
wouldn't be an issue.

> So I think a Pi Zero or Zero W is a weak approach, compared to a normal
> Pi.

Not for a project like my thermal store controller. That doesn't need
a quad core processor or 1 G byte of RAM, a Zero has ample processing
capacity:

10:47:17 up 9 days, 20:44, 1 user, load average: 0.35, 0.30, 0.28

That's a Zero running Pi-Hole, Nginx web server, a python script
logging data from five 1-Wire temperature sensors, a 1-Wire
thermocouple interface and a 1-Wire 8 port I/O switch, a python
script decoding and logging a serial data stream from an Resol
controller and another python script that is the evolving control
program, that sits reading the some of 1-Wire temp sensors and cycles
round various animated screens showing that information whilst
watching the the rotary encoder for movement if detected it switches
to a "menu mode" to set up various parameters.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[A. Dumas]

On 22/01/2018 12:07, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> But not a lot, couple of Euro.

Denominations are not capitalized: euro, dollar, pound.

[rickman]

Henri Derksen wrote on 1/21/2018 1:44 AM:
> Hello Rick,
>
> HD>> The low price of the Pi Zero flows away, because of the costs of all the
> HD>> conversion cables to connect it to the outside world,
> HD>> i.e. micro HDMI to HDMI, micro USB2 to/from normal USB2A,
> HD>> USB2-RJ45 dongle etc.
> HD>> And then you still have less memory and less speed compaired to a Pi 3B.
>
> RC> That's true of the rPi anyway as the cost of the keyboard, mouse,
> RC> monitor and even a decent power supply ends up being significantly pricey
> RC> compared to the rPi itself.
>
> Yes, that's true, but that is not what I wanted to tell.
> I was comparing the costs of the Pi Zero and conversion cables to the regular
> Pi 1B, so to connect the same I/O cables (i.e. HDMI, USB2 and RJ45 EtherNet)
> as I would use on a normal Pi. So I can change a Pi 1B for a Zero in one go.
> Then I need at least these three conversion cables.

Ok, but what is the point of this? When I got an rPi I had to buy two HDMI
cables, one to connect to the rPi and another to adapt to my DVI monitor.
Adapters are a fact of life... or you can buy the right cable in the first
place.

> RC> The zero doesn't need a microHDMI to HDMI converter, just have a
> RC> suitable cable.
>
> I already have two normal HDMI to HDMI, and two HDMI to DVI-D cables. So for
> a Pi Zero I only need a Micro HDMI-male to normal HDMI-Female, you see?

You have cables lying around not being used? Mine are all connected to
computers. Instead of buying cables you don't need, you should have bought
cables you can use like one with a micro-HDMI connector.

> With that short converters I can use the normal cables.

What's a "normal" cable? Oh, any cable you already bought that isn't
correct for the application you have now?

> Or should I also buy a micro-HDMi to normal HDMI-male for the Pi Zero?
> and a Micro-HDMI to DVI-D one, that's also double ;-(
> So one simple short micro HDMI tot HDMI female will do right.
> Then I can choose to use the HDMI to HDMI cable, or the HDMI to DVI-D version
> incombination with that converter cable.

Buy the cables you need, when you need them.

> Of course I also have a normal HDMI to VGA converter for use at VGA monitors
> at computerclubs etc. Then I do not need to carry a monitor with me.
>
> RC> Everything I have is micro USB using a standard cable unless it's a
> RC> keyboard or mouse. You can use the zero headless just as well as anything.
>
> I know, but I never use computers headless.
> Second, I do not have a smarth phone, so no micro usb needed ;-).
> The only micro USB I need are for the Pi's, and my Garmin 2595LMT
> autoroutenavigator.

Virtually everything I have is micro-USB and the laptop computer is the
*ONLY* type A USB device I have.

> RC> I guess costing a PC kinda blows the budget if you want to count that.
>
> Yes, but in reality you have to spend that to get a working combination.

I don't know what "working combination" means. Why can't I use an rPi for
all my computing needs? I was thinking of that the other day. It could be
the ultimate Chrome book. Instead of opening multiple browser windows on on
computer I could open windows on multiple rPis and connect into them via
Ethernet or wifi. At $35 for a model 3 or $5 for a model zero, I could have
a *lot* of computing power at my finger tips for very little money compared
to a $1000 computer.

> Here people need inland ECDIS on their ships, and I made a solution with a Pi
> 3B and sell a complete configured microSDcard to them.
> Then they want to know what to buy else to get a complete system.
> So I made a complete description of the materials needed to get a full stand
> alone working ECDIS Pi system. If you count everything, a laptop costs more.

Exactly! A LOT more.

> RC> What is the RJ-45 for? You mean an Ethernet USB converter?
>
> Yes, is a simply Emiment EM1010 USB2 to RJ45 10/100bT EtherNet converter.
>
> RC> You can always develop you app on a regular rPi then use the zero in the
> RC> end device.

You deleted the context so I don't know what the point was.

[Kees van Eeten]

Hello Henri!

21 Jan 18 18:44, you wrote to rickman:

HD> Now I am thinking to set up a Pi as a FidoNet mailer as a plan C.
HD> The amount of kilo Watts will dramatically drop, compared to this current
HD> FidoNet node on a 80486 pc with DOS 5 and an analoge V34 POTS modem.
HD> First I have to create (buy or build) an USB HDD, because when used
HD> intensively, a micro SDcard will soon die.

What is soon?
I have four RPi's running Fido for some years now. They all use the SDcard
as storage. The all carry all echo areas my main node offers, wich is far
more than what you are connected to. All run headless.

HD> Second I need to know which Linux software I can use?

Node 2:280/5006 Binkd - fidogate as main node
hpt - Golded - as directory coupled point system
smapinntpd on the same messagebase

Point system1 Binkd - hpt - jammnntpd
Point system2 MBSE
Point system3 Binkd - hpt - Golded - smapinntpd

In progress Binkd in a Docker container - HPT and Golded are next.

They all run without supervision or manual maintenance.

Kees

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:02:20 +1200, Kees van Eeten wrote:

>> when used intensively, a micro SDcard will soon die.
>
> What is soon?

About 6 weeks for an micro SD card or USB memory stick with a Pi
being used as a timelapse camera taking a full HD image every 30
seconds, checking the overall level (no point in storing black images
during the night), adding a time/date caption, generating a thumbnail
and compiling the previous 24 hours into a 2 minute (ish) timelapse
movie every 3 hours. The initial photo produced 2880 1 M byte (ish)
file writes/day, adding the caption another 2000 to 840 depending on
the season. An 8 GB card/stick was pretty full holding about 3 days
of still images, the movies and have enough working space. A single
day would have about 6 or 7 GB of writes done. With not much elbow
room for the wear leveling to work with, unlike a card with a fair
bit of free space.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Kees van Eeten]

Hello Dave!

22 Jan 18 14:16, you wrote to me:

DL> On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:02:20 +1200, Kees van Eeten wrote:

>>> when used intensively, a micro SDcard will soon die.
>>
>> What is soon?

DL> About 6 weeks for an micro SD card or USB memory stick with a Pi
DL> being used as a timelapse camera taking a full HD image every 30

.....

DL> room for the wear leveling to work with, unlike a card with a fair
DL> bit of free space.

O.K. but that is really heavy use. I think I had one SDcard die on me
with Domoticz running for over a year.

The fidonet nodes have short activities about ever 10 minits and messages
are all small and text base. If you use a 32 or 64Gb card, it lasts a long
time.

Kees

[petrus bitbyter]

"Jack Fearnley" schreef in bericht news:p3t3mf$kvf$2...@dont-email.me...

I have a non-powered (not by a separate supply that is) with three
USB-conections and a ethernet connector. Works like a charm. Did you try a
more powerfull supply for the Zero? My Zero, not a ZeroW, required some
extra power when I connect too many things to it.

petrue bitbyter