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Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
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Another Dave
Oct 27, 2023, 7:28:58 AM10/27/23
to
I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
are out of date as usual.
Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
it but seems a bit OTT.
Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie
Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
are out of date as usual.
Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
it but seems a bit OTT.
Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie
The Natural Philosopher
Oct 27, 2023, 2:05:28 PM10/27/23
to
On 27/10/2023 12:28, Another Dave wrote:
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.
>
Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.
>
> Another Dave
--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”
Thomas Sowell
Theo
Oct 28, 2023, 5:14:17 AM10/28/23
to
Another Dave <dmar...@nospam.com> wrote:
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.
Raspberry Pi OS is an OS distribution.
> I need this feature despite being told, high-handedly, by the Raspberry
> Pi lot that I don't and that they don't support it. Most search results
> are out of date as usual.
>
> Manjaro (KDE) does it but it doesn't work in other ways. Cinnamon does
> it but seems a bit OTT.
That distribution provides a desktop environment (DE).
By default RPiOS uses a DE called PIXEL based on customised LXDE.
If the default DE doesn't provide what you want, install another one.
If KDE is the thing you want, install that. Or find another DE.
Don't throw out the OS just because you want to change the window
dressing.
https://raspberrytips.com/upgrade-raspbian-lite-to-desktop/
which starts with RPiOS Lite, but you can also do it from full RPiOS by
skipping to step 4.
It is also possible to skip using a DE and do it 'by hand' by installing
a window manager directly (like i3 or FVWM), which gets you basic window
manipulation without also giving you a dock, system tray, file manager,
etc. I know FVWM supports multiple workspaces.
Theo
Another Dave
Oct 28, 2023, 6:36:53 AM10/28/23
to
On 27/10/2023 7:05 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian
>
>
I've already installed Cinnamon and will stick with it. There are no
> Install MATE and possibly Ubuntu instead of Debian
>
>
performance issues with it, those only start with the ginormous loads
all modern browsers place on systems. Only chromium seems to use
hardware acceleration on youtube.
Another Dave
Oct 28, 2023, 6:44:13 AM10/28/23
to
the pi. ALL desktops have the ability to use multiple workspaces except
Pixel. It was removed from Pixel specifically because somebody at
Raspberry Pi couldn't be bothered to fix a bug in it.
56d.1152
Nov 4, 2023, 12:00:19 AM11/4/23
to
past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
to set everything.
DID discover network manager stores
the configs in /etc/NetworkManager/session-something
in readable/tweakable files. For a 'lite' OS though
you should use nmcli to 'add' an interface (pain
enough) and then use nano to fine-tweak the config
file. Fortunately I had some made WITH the GUI as
patterns for the non-GUI units.
Remember /etc/networking ? THAT worked JUST FINE and
you could tweak to your heart's content. NO REASON for
Deb to deviate and make it all infinitely more difficult.
Who sells something far closer to Old Deb ??? I'll
check MX, maybe Devuian, but it has to run on a Pi.
(mx will, but unsure about the networking without a GUI)
DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
Tried one made ON a Pi3, moved to a Pi4, and another
completely installed on a Pi4. Alas I have something
that badly NEEDS the local autoexec so it'll have
a real 'screen' to put graphic output on (a python pgm).
Even putting the attempted startup into .profile or
.bashrc ain't doing it. Tried a bash script that starts
the py script - again no-go. I'll try adding a sleep
in there somewhere tomorrow ....... as said, just a
very very WEIRD diff between Pi models. Worst case, I'll
try last-years Raspbian.
Michael Schwingen
Nov 4, 2023, 3:02:38 PM11/4/23
to
On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> creating a file
> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
too.
> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
Have a look at
https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse
under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually
create separate config files.
cu
Michael
[1] I regularly run embedded debian systems, but I have not cross-checked
this on a raspberry.
--
Some people have no respect of age unless it is bottled.
> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> creating a file
> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
too.
> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
Have a look at
https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse
under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually
create separate config files.
cu
Michael
[1] I regularly run embedded debian systems, but I have not cross-checked
this on a raspberry.
--
Some people have no respect of age unless it is bottled.
56d.1152
Nov 5, 2023, 1:07:42 AM11/5/23
to
On 11/4/23 7:04 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4...@earthlink.com>,
> iface eth0 inet static
> address 192.168.1.3
> network 192.168.1.0
> netmask 255.255.255.0
> gateway 192.168.1.1
>
> I *presume* it would be similar for a Wi-Fi connection but that the
> file name would not be eth0 but whatever the Wi-fi interface is
> called. I don't know what that is at the moment.
>
> So I tried to get a Wi-Fi dongle to work using the usual the old
> method, copying a file wpa_supplicant.conf to the boot partition of
> the sd card before it is transferred to the pi. This worked great
> with bullseye but fails with bookworm.
>
> I've done some googling and found something I thought was the answer,
> I had to create a file at /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf and then run it
> with: wpa_supplicant -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant.conf -d
>
> With only two steps I half expected it to work but of course it gave
> me miles of text and failed to work.
move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.
Modern Deb-derivatives have completely abandoned /etc/networking.
I guess it worked too well, was too-well documented. You actually
have do do some DAMAGE to force /etc/networking to take control.
Raspbian used /etc/dhcpcd.conf for quite awhile. Bookworm
broke that - again for NO sane reason.
With Bookworm it's all hidden away in /etc/NetworkManager/
system-connections. Alas if you NEVER had a GUI then it's
all DHCP from SOME yet-unknown source. Fortunately I'd
made some with and without GUI ... and the ones WITH GUI
provided the necessary pattern. You need to use "nmcli add con"
to create the skeleton of a new networking device ... can be
the wired or wireless. Then you EDIT it and insert the
needed names and numbers. This works.
And it's also VERY VERY unnecessarily complex/obscure.
Raspbian IS the best-tuned to PIs. However these unneeded
and vexing changes are getting to be TOO MUCH. There are
now a number of Lini that can run pretty well on PIs -
including MX and Arch-derivs. I'm really gonna look into
the Arch branch ... not that I love Arch, but there are
just SOME things that should be convenient, comprehensible
and consistent for people who do PRACTICAL stuff.
I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
from before.
> In article <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4...@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> I've installed Raspian/Bookworm on FOUR boards in the
>> past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
>> very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
>> pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
>> in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
>> version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
>> to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
>> the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
>> to set everything.
>
>
>> I've installed Raspian/Bookworm on FOUR boards in the
>> past couple weeks. Yep, it does all the usual. ONE
>> very annoying aspect with Bookworm though is the
>> pointless demise of dhcpcd.conf and WPA_Supplicant.conf
>> in favor of "network manager'. If you use the 'lite'
>> version, no GUI, this becomes a PROBLEM if you want
>> to do static IPs. For the GUI versions just install
>> the Gnome network manager GUI thingie and use that
>> to set everything.
>
> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> creating a file
> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> allow-hotplug eth0
> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> creating a file
> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> iface eth0 inet static
> address 192.168.1.3
> network 192.168.1.0
> netmask 255.255.255.0
> gateway 192.168.1.1
>
> I *presume* it would be similar for a Wi-Fi connection but that the
> file name would not be eth0 but whatever the Wi-fi interface is
> called. I don't know what that is at the moment.
>
> So I tried to get a Wi-Fi dongle to work using the usual the old
> method, copying a file wpa_supplicant.conf to the boot partition of
> the sd card before it is transferred to the pi. This worked great
> with bullseye but fails with bookworm.
>
> I've done some googling and found something I thought was the answer,
> I had to create a file at /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf and then run it
> with: wpa_supplicant -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant.conf -d
>
> With only two steps I half expected it to work but of course it gave
> me miles of text and failed to work.
>
> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.
Modern Deb-derivatives have completely abandoned /etc/networking.
I guess it worked too well, was too-well documented. You actually
have do do some DAMAGE to force /etc/networking to take control.
Raspbian used /etc/dhcpcd.conf for quite awhile. Bookworm
broke that - again for NO sane reason.
With Bookworm it's all hidden away in /etc/NetworkManager/
system-connections. Alas if you NEVER had a GUI then it's
all DHCP from SOME yet-unknown source. Fortunately I'd
made some with and without GUI ... and the ones WITH GUI
provided the necessary pattern. You need to use "nmcli add con"
to create the skeleton of a new networking device ... can be
the wired or wireless. Then you EDIT it and insert the
needed names and numbers. This works.
And it's also VERY VERY unnecessarily complex/obscure.
Raspbian IS the best-tuned to PIs. However these unneeded
and vexing changes are getting to be TOO MUCH. There are
now a number of Lini that can run pretty well on PIs -
including MX and Arch-derivs. I'm really gonna look into
the Arch branch ... not that I love Arch, but there are
just SOME things that should be convenient, comprehensible
and consistent for people who do PRACTICAL stuff.
I'll provide a skeleton for a /system-connections template
on Monday ... there ARE a very few example on the web, but
VERY few and hard to find. They look nothing like anything
from before.
56d.1152
Nov 5, 2023, 1:17:30 AM11/5/23
to
On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>> creating a file
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> too.
And how much other stuff ???
> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>> creating a file
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> too.
/etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
There was NO reason to change.
So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
I'm gonna look into Arch ......
>> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
>> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
>
> Have a look at
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse
>
> under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
> everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually
> create separate config files.
or dhcpcd.conf are used any more by any sort of default/
fallback.
For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
system-<something>
Bookworm is just HORRIBLE in this respect on a Pi.
Gonna check into Arch - seriously check into it. IF IT
WORKS *DON'T BREAK IT*
Jim Jackson
Nov 5, 2023, 5:40:31 AM11/5/23
to
On 2023-11-05, 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
> Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
> move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.
Actually does not have to be true.
>
> Nothing beats a static IP. DHCP can, and eventually WILL,
> move stuff around - and then you get weird annoying failures.
It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
for a specific MAC. Many home routers allow this feature too. I run my
own DHCP server exactly to have full control over this and many other
features.
Not defending Debian here at all :-) Though I do use debain derived OSes
- but much reconfigured.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 5, 2023, 7:30:03 AM11/5/23
to
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
Jim Jackson <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
> for a specific MAC.
Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
Jim Jackson <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
> for a specific MAC.
IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.
Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
Theo
Nov 5, 2023, 9:50:48 AM11/5/23
to
56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> > On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> >> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> >> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> >> creating a file
> >> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
> >
> > That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> > Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> > too.
>
> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> > On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> >> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
> >> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
> >> creating a file
> >> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
> >
> > That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> > Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> > too.
>
> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/
> I'm gonna look into Arch ......
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration
Theo
mm0fmf
Nov 5, 2023, 10:09:08 AM11/5/23
to
On 05/11/2023 11:05, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4...@earthlink.com>,
> If I understand you correctly, I'm looking forward to that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>
For my Pi Zero W running bookworm.
I did an in-place upgrade from bullseye to bookworm and then a later
upgrade broke the networking. See the thread "Arrgh!! systemd strikes
again!"
Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
following files
/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
In my case the content is
/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp
wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
update_config=1
country=GB
network={
ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
}
My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP addrs anyway.
> In article <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4...@earthlink.com>,
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>
For my Pi Zero W running bookworm.
I did an in-place upgrade from bullseye to bookworm and then a later
upgrade broke the networking. See the thread "Arrgh!! systemd strikes
again!"
Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
following files
/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
In my case the content is
/etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp
wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
update_config=1
country=GB
network={
ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
}
My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP addrs anyway.
mm0fmf
Nov 5, 2023, 2:26:01 PM11/5/23
to
On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
>
> On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
> different dongles but they both worked
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Bob.
>
Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.
> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
> mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
>> following files
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> In my case the content is
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>> update_config=1
>> country=GB
>
>> network={
>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>> }
>
> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>> Using a separate Linux system to access the Pi's SDcard I added the
>> following files
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> In my case the content is
>
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
>
>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>> update_config=1
>> country=GB
>
>> network={
>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>> }
>
>
> On a raspberry pi 2 with no built in wi-fi I tried a couple of
> different dongles but they both worked
>
>> My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
>> address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
>> addrs anyway.
>
> Yes, same here.
>> My router is setup to allocate a set of fixed IP addrs based on MAC
>> address for some devices that use DHCP. The rest have fixed IP
>> addrs anyway.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Bob.
>
Glad to be of help. I found stuff about this online so it's not my own
hard work here just the distillation of someone else's efforts.
56d.1152
Nov 5, 2023, 11:15:20 PM11/5/23
to
On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>>>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>>>> creating a file
>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>>>
>>> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
>>> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
>>> too.
>>
>> And how much other stuff ???
>>
>> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>>
>> There was NO reason to change.
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
>> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
>> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>>>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>>>> creating a file
>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>>>
>>> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
>>> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
>>> too.
>>
>> And how much other stuff ???
>>
>> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>>
>> There was NO reason to change.
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
>> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
>> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/rhd1e4/future_of_network_configuration_in_debian/
>
>> I'm gonna look into Arch ......
>
> Seems like Arch uses the same tools, with systemd-networkd by default:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration
Depending, there ARE ways to manage any security risks even
after updates get thin.
I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
As is now, EVERY update might now totally BREAK your
hard-won applications. This is NOT acceptable.
ANYway, I'll post templates for nm entries tomorrow,
one for wired, another for wireless. Get 'em going
with an easy nmcli and then tweak to taste with nano.
Hmm ... I can already visualize an EASY TO USE
replacement for common nmcli uses on a Pi ...
I'll do it in Python (no, not bash with it's
obscure syntax I have to look up EVERY time) and
post it somewhere findable. Fill-in-the-blanks is
the simplest approach along with a 'ladder' structure
so you can key 'next' or 'go back'. Oh sure, you
can install Gnome or something, use the GUI nm app
(gotta run it as root) and then try to UN-install all
that junk ... until you need to repeat .....
There ARE Pi-runnable versions of FreeBSD and
even Plan-9 these days. I'm betting they're
less volatile. I've run OpenSuse on a Pi
(though it's 'heavy') but I'll have to check
if RHEL and/or Fedora keep breaking What Works
first.
56d.1152
Nov 5, 2023, 11:17:57 PM11/5/23
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 6, 2023, 2:30:04 AM11/6/23
to
On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> > Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> > abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> > with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>
>
> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> > Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> > abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> > with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>
>
> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
fashion.
mm0fmf
Nov 6, 2023, 3:47:37 AM11/6/23
to
On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4...@earthlink.com>,
>
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
>
> Bob.
>
Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is unmanaged.
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4...@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>> Did that work on BOOKWORM ???
>
> Yes it does!
>
>
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
>
> Bob.
>
Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is unmanaged.
mm0fmf
Nov 6, 2023, 3:51:00 AM11/6/23
to
As it's unmanaged by NetworkManagaer, then it's being left alone. That's
just fine for what this PiZeroW is used for. I have another PiZeroW with
the same release of software that I'll play with and will add wlan0 to
NetworkManager's grasp so I can see what it does (if anything).
Richard Kettlewell
Nov 6, 2023, 4:10:12 AM11/6/23
to
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
to use it.
isc-dhcp-client does seems to be abandonware, but ifupdown supports at
least two other DHCP clients.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work like it
>> used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes and now Deb
>> seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
ifupdown still exists in bookworm. There is no need to break anything
>> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work like it
>> used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes and now Deb
>> seems to have even exceeded THEM.
>
> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
to use it.
isc-dhcp-client does seems to be abandonware, but ifupdown supports at
least two other DHCP clients.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Anssi Saari
Nov 6, 2023, 4:53:44 AM11/6/23
to
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> writes:
> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
>
> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
If by Deb you mean Debian, it still defaults, in version 12, to using
> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
>
> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.
/etc/network/interfaces and ifupdown for network management.
The Raspberry Pi foundation makes changes to Debian and calls it the
Raspberry Pi OS. Or Raspbian, earlier.
Chris Elvidge
Nov 6, 2023, 7:22:59 AM11/6/23
to
On 06/11/2023 09:17, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uia9di$dimp$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Further testing just, has revealed that bookworm doesn't seem to copy
> the wpa_supplicant.conf file from boot partition at boot up like
> bullseye did. The only way I've found to get that file there is via
> ethernet and in my case samba.
>
> Upon reboot, sometimes the wpa_supplicant.conf files gets overwritten
> with zeros and sometimes not. I've no idea why.
>
> Bob.
>
Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm lite
on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a long time
to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU [Archer T2U Nano],
I just did:
nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged (and
unneeded). The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is documented
here:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder to
configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible from
Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
BTW Bookworm is (subjectively) faster than Bullseye on a PiB+
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I AM NOT A LEAN MEAN SPITTING MACHINE
> In article <uia9di$dimp$1...@dont-email.me>,
> the wpa_supplicant.conf file from boot partition at boot up like
> bullseye did. The only way I've found to get that file there is via
> ethernet and in my case samba.
>
> Upon reboot, sometimes the wpa_supplicant.conf files gets overwritten
> with zeros and sometimes not. I've no idea why.
>
> Bob.
>
Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm lite
on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a long time
to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU [Archer T2U Nano],
I just did:
nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged (and
unneeded). The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is documented
here:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder to
configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible from
Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
BTW Bookworm is (subjectively) faster than Bullseye on a PiB+
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I AM NOT A LEAN MEAN SPITTING MACHINE
mm0fmf
Nov 6, 2023, 8:06:07 AM11/6/23
to
On 06/11/2023 12:22, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
In my case I had working Buster and upgraded in situ to Bullseye then
> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
Bookworm on a headless PiZeroW. The legacy network setup was moved and
the automatic power up connection to Wifi stayed active. Then a recent
update to Bookworm changed NetworkManager and Wifi was broken. The fix
is as described early.
I've been playing with nmcli on a Pi with some USB Wifi dongles and have
played with nmcli d wifi connect.... and yes, it works and survives
reboots. My built wlan0 is currently unmanaged by NM.
I'm thinking a clean install of Bookworm would have put wlan0 under NM
control. But as it was using the old style setup it was left as is (and
working). The later NM update didn't / couldn't cope with that style of
setup, failed and broke the old style network setup. What I've done
(which I found somewhere online) works and leaves wlan0 outside of NM
control.
I'm just considering whether to leave as it as it is working or to do a
sudo nmcli dev set wlan0 managed yes, remove the files I added and let
NM manage it from now on. Probably the best course of action in the long
run as it's possible and probable a future NM update may break things
again.
Chris Elvidge
Nov 6, 2023, 9:40:10 AM11/6/23
to
On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uialr1$fcug$1...@dont-email.me>,
>
> Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
> command?
>
> Wow, I'll try this out later.
Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.
>
>> The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
>> documented here:
>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
>
>> Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
>> wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
>> to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
>> from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
>
> Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)
> wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.
>
> Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
> and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.
>
> Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.
>
> Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
> don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)
Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Bob.
>
It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
'wpa_cli status'
--
Chris Elvidge, England
COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS
> In article <uialr1$fcug$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Chris Elvidge <ch...@mshome.net> wrote:
>
>> Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
>> lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
>> long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
>> [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:
>
>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
>> It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
>> (and unneeded).
>
> <stunned gulp>
>
>> Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
>> lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
>> long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
>> [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:
>
>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
>> It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
>> (and unneeded).
>
>
> Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
> command?
>
> Wow, I'll try this out later.
Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.
>
>> The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
>> documented here:
>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
>
>> Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
>> wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
>> to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
>> from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
>
>
>> I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
>> https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
>
> I'll have a read of that, thanks.
>> I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
>> https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
>
>
>> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
>
> Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
>> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
>
> wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.
>
> Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
> and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.
>
> Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.
>
> Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
> don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)
Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Bob.
>
It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
'wpa_cli status'
--
Chris Elvidge, England
COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS
Chris Elvidge
Nov 6, 2023, 10:04:05 AM11/6/23
to
Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
settings. I have:
# Disable compensation for displays with overscan
disable_overscan=1
overscan_left=50
overscan_right=20
overscan_top=25
overscan_bottom=20
which works until the (new) video driver takes over
Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
# Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
#dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
#max_framebuffers=2
settings. I have:
# Disable compensation for displays with overscan
disable_overscan=1
overscan_left=50
overscan_right=20
overscan_top=25
overscan_bottom=20
which works until the (new) video driver takes over
Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
# Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
#dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
#max_framebuffers=2
mm0fmf
Nov 6, 2023, 10:19:31 AM11/6/23
to
reasonably straightforward.
sudo nmtui rather than nmcli to setup the profile info and wifi
password. I'm happy using nmcli but I thought I try the "GUI" version as
many will be happier using that.
At first I could not make NM manage wlan0. This was because in
/etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf the ifupdown section was set to
managed=false and so I changed that to managed-true.
Reboot and wlan0 is controlled by NM and connects on power up.
This was straightforward because I used a USB ethernet dongle to control
the Pi rather than using the wlan0 device I was reconfiguring.
sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us
Nov 6, 2023, 1:04:00 PM11/6/23
to
56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
> system-<something>
nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses
> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
> system-<something>
NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.
--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
druck
Nov 6, 2023, 4:34:29 PM11/6/23
to
On 04/11/2023 03:59, 56d.1152 wrote:
> DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
> can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
> to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
The Pi 4 and later use Wayland (perpetually unfinished and unfit for
> DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
> can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
> to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
purpose windowing system) so LXDE isn't used. Try switching back to X11
and all will be well.
---druck
druck
Nov 6, 2023, 4:34:33 PM11/6/23
to
On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
> settings.
[Snip]
> Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
> settings.
> which works until the (new) video driver takes over
Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother
supporting, so no longer work.
> Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
>
> # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
> #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
> #max_framebuffers=2
---druck
56d.1152
Nov 6, 2023, 9:59:48 PM11/6/23
to
On 11/6/23 3:24 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4...@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4...@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>> Did that work on BOOKWORM ???
>
> Yes it does!
>
>
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
I'll do some experiments. Glad to see SOMETHING other
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...
than the weird /etc/NetworkManager stuff might work !
Another 'cure' for the overwrite issue would be to write
an on-boot script that physically copies a GOOD copy to
WPA_Supplicant fairly early on. Not as elegant, but then
you also don't have to tamper with /boot
Such a pity though that after ALL these years we STILL
have to find ways to fix/break the normal OS just to
do simple - but very important - stuff like this.
56d.1152
Nov 6, 2023, 10:17:56 PM11/6/23
to
On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
>
>>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
>>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
>>> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>>
>>
>> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
>> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
>
> Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.
>
>> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
>> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
>
> Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> fashion.
I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
>
>>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
>>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
>>> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>>
>>
>> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
>> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
>
> Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.
>
>> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
>> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
>
> Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> fashion.
of FreeBSD.
ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
or 'smart devices'.
In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.
Maybe it's a 6/Half-Dozen thing ?
As for Linux, I fear Canonical and its "philosophy" are
gaining too much traction. I dumped the 'Buntu's a few
years back because of that - but now even Mother Deb seems
to to be 'contaminated'. There's a systemd rebellion
faction ... maybe a "Pure Deb" rebellion faction is
also needed ?
56d.1152
Nov 6, 2023, 11:58:36 PM11/6/23
to
On 11/6/23 1:03 PM, sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
>> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
>> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
>> system-<something>
>
> nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses
> NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.
>
I'm gonna write a py app for it ... already know
> 56d.1152 <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
>> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
>> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
>> system-<something>
>
> nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses
> NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.
>
how it'll work. Just the usual basics, easy to
go back and forth in a particular networking def.
DID post templates for what's in
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections
and how to use nmcli to at least create
(/register?) the useless base templates.
Then you copy/paste my examples into them
and make yer specific tweaks.
Liked the old way, indeed even OLDER way,
a lot better. Far less mystery and BS.
It's all easier if you are making a GUI-based
system ... but without GUI tools (and you have
to deliberately install one in Bookworm and
run it as root) it's suddenly a real pain to
do static IPs and such.
56d.1152
Nov 7, 2023, 12:06:46 AM11/7/23
to
I've been hearing hype about Wayland for many
years now. IMHO it's still not up to snuff and
more stupid than X11 and may always be thus.
And, as mentioned here, it KILLS a lot of useful
stuff that's WELL documented for X11.
No thanks.
Sometimes "improvements" just AREN'T. Don't break
what ain't broke.
I do practical stuff with Pi's and do NOT wanna
rewrite big apps, or half the OS, just to make
things work straight-up.
Hate to rec more distros, but perhaps the Pi people
need to consider their target audience and make their
OWN, straight-up, version of Deb. Go back to Buster
or even Stretch and proceed from there.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 7, 2023, 2:30:05 AM11/7/23
to
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:17:44 -0500
and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> > "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> >
> >>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> >>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
> >>> either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
> >>
> >>
> >> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> >> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
> >
> > Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
> > FreeBSD.
> >
> >> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
> >> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
> >
> > Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> > fashion.
>
>
> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> of FreeBSD.
>
> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
> or 'smart devices'.
Not sure how you got that impression samba will export both smb2
> On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> > "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> >
> >>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> >>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
> >>> either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
> >>
> >>
> >> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> >> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
> >
> > Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
> > FreeBSD.
> >
> >> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
> >> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
> >
> > Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> > fashion.
>
>
> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> of FreeBSD.
>
> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
> or 'smart devices'.
and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.
Mike Scott
Nov 7, 2023, 4:34:38 AM11/7/23
to
On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
.....
enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>
> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
sure that's only smb1?
> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
> or 'smart devices'.
>
> In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
> NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
> In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.
Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
follow tried and tested paths.
Horses for courses.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England
.....
>
> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> of FreeBSD.
I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well
> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> of FreeBSD.
enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>
> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
sure that's only smb1?
> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
> or 'smart devices'.
>
> In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
> NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
> In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.
you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
follow tried and tested paths.
Horses for courses.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England
Chris Elvidge
Nov 7, 2023, 5:38:15 AM11/7/23
to
--
Chris Elvidge, England
RUDOLPH'S RED NOSE IS NOT ALCOHOL-RELATED
Chris Elvidge
Nov 7, 2023, 8:27:38 AM11/7/23
to
On 07/11/2023 12:52, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uiats7$gig9$1...@dont-email.me>,
> so I try to understand it and add it to my notes. Most of it is
> obvious but what is the "d" for?
>
> The jeffgeerling blog which I believe is the source of this, uses the
> "d" option but fails to explain it.
>
> The redhat documentation here..
> https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/networking_guide/sec-configuring_ip_networking_with_nmcli
>
> never uses a "d" option but does use a "c" option which isn't
> explained either. It also refers a lot to parameters like -t.
>
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?
>
> On other OS in the past I've seen where these would be flags with
> opposite setting ie. t is a flag on and -t is the same flag off. I
> don't think that's the case here but could well be wrong.
>
> My best guess is that "d" is short for 'device', if so what is "c"
> short for?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>
nmcli --help lists these objects in addition to other things
Usage: nmcli [OPTIONS] OBJECT { COMMAND | help }
OPTIONS
-a, --ask ask for missing parameters
-c, --colors auto|yes|no whether to use colors in output
-e, --escape yes|no escape columns separators in
values
-f, --fields <field,...>|all|common specify fields to output
-g, --get-values <field,...>|all|common shortcut for -m tabular -t -f
-h, --help print this help
-m, --mode tabular|multiline output mode
-o, --overview overview mode
-p, --pretty pretty output
-s, --show-secrets allow displaying passwords
-t, --terse terse output
-v, --version show program version
-w, --wait <seconds> set timeout waiting for
finishing operations
OBJECT
g[eneral] NetworkManager's general status and operations
n[etworking] overall networking control
r[adio] NetworkManager radio switches
c[onnection] NetworkManager's connections
d[evice] devices managed by NetworkManager
a[gent] NetworkManager secret agent or polkit agent
m[onitor] monitor NetworkManager changes
--
Chris Elvidge, England
BART BUCKS, ARE NOT LEGAL TENDER
> In article <uiats7$gig9$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Chris Elvidge <ch...@mshome.net> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> In article <uialr1$fcug$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Chris Elvidge <ch...@mshome.net> wrote:
>
>>>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
> That command worked for me on a pi2/bookworm with a Wi-Fi dongle and
>> On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> In article <uialr1$fcug$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> Chris Elvidge <ch...@mshome.net> wrote:
>
>>>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
> so I try to understand it and add it to my notes. Most of it is
> obvious but what is the "d" for?
>
> The jeffgeerling blog which I believe is the source of this, uses the
> "d" option but fails to explain it.
>
> The redhat documentation here..
> https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/networking_guide/sec-configuring_ip_networking_with_nmcli
>
> never uses a "d" option but does use a "c" option which isn't
> explained either. It also refers a lot to parameters like -t.
>
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?
>
> On other OS in the past I've seen where these would be flags with
> opposite setting ie. t is a flag on and -t is the same flag off. I
> don't think that's the case here but could well be wrong.
>
> My best guess is that "d" is short for 'device', if so what is "c"
> short for?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>
nmcli --help lists these objects in addition to other things
Usage: nmcli [OPTIONS] OBJECT { COMMAND | help }
OPTIONS
-a, --ask ask for missing parameters
-c, --colors auto|yes|no whether to use colors in output
-e, --escape yes|no escape columns separators in
values
-f, --fields <field,...>|all|common specify fields to output
-g, --get-values <field,...>|all|common shortcut for -m tabular -t -f
-h, --help print this help
-m, --mode tabular|multiline output mode
-o, --overview overview mode
-p, --pretty pretty output
-s, --show-secrets allow displaying passwords
-t, --terse terse output
-v, --version show program version
-w, --wait <seconds> set timeout waiting for
finishing operations
OBJECT
g[eneral] NetworkManager's general status and operations
n[etworking] overall networking control
r[adio] NetworkManager radio switches
c[onnection] NetworkManager's connections
d[evice] devices managed by NetworkManager
a[gent] NetworkManager secret agent or polkit agent
m[onitor] monitor NetworkManager changes
--
Chris Elvidge, England
BART BUCKS, ARE NOT LEGAL TENDER
Björn Lundin
Nov 7, 2023, 11:09:54 AM11/7/23
to
On 2023-11-07 13:52, Bob Latham wrote:
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?
The sad answer is that it depends
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?
When a program is started and parses the commandline,
depending on language/library used you get different ways
but most separate options from parameters where options are prefixed
with something ('-', '--', '/')
eg, using some kind of getopt lib,
you could expect options to start with '-'
and parameters not being prefixed.
Then option is 1 char only, like -t or -d /dev/sda
If it is a reasonable new (gnu) getopt, it will do long options as well
--time or --device=/dev/sda
However if no library is used and the program just reads the command
line, then is is whatever the programmer felt like at the time
So on the system I work on we have a cmdline-parsing lib that insists on
prefix is 1 char
'-' for unix and '/' for Win + VMS (still in the lib)
if first part of option is 'no' then it negates the meaning
meaning we have commands like
swap_table -name=tablename -norebuildindex
or
swap_table -name=tablename -rebuildindex
where -name is longer than 1 char and rebuildindex is a boolean value.
-norebuildindex does not exist in code - it is a negated -rebuildindex
--
/Björn
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 12:00:33 AM11/8/23
to
MAY be that Free CAN do at least SMB2, though SMB3 IS still better.
Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively. All the
little NK/PRC hacks go after EVERY possible Winders weakness.
Oh, reviewing recent firwall logs, there were a huge number
of attacks directed at INDUSTRIAL CONTROLLERS about a week ago.
Siemens especially. All kinds of ways to attack those - indeed
the CIA did exactly that to Iran about a decade ago, ruining a
lot of their uranium centrifuges.
Note also, the bulk of the Australian net WENT DOWN HARD
yesterday - right before the Oz PM is set to meet with Xi.
No commerce, even affected trains and airlines. Don't care
WHAT they officially blame it on - I'm sure Xi was sending
a message ...... maybe as much as a billion-dollar message.
His agents are deeply embedded, everywhere. Guess what
happens in the US/EU when the Taiwan invasion starts ? :-)
'Cloud' biz sounds SO good - until there's no 'cloud'.
Got a wad of CASH ? Better have ....
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 12:29:10 AM11/8/23
to
On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
> .....
>>
>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>> of FreeBSD.
>
> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well
> enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
> of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
> .....
>>
>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>> of FreeBSD.
>
> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well
> enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
> of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
But what works for you, works. Needs/goals vary.
Alas I CANNOT get rid of the damned Winders crap. The new
boss is Winders OBSESSED "Everybody uses that and nothing
else" is the official opinion. Straight out of a Dilbert
strip - the oblivious lead.
But I 'm retiring soon - the New Guy can deal :-) It
won't be cheap or nice or even 'solid' ........ but it
sure won't be MY FAULT :-)
>> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
>> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
>> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
>
> A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
> sure that's only smb1?
how much WORK/complexity is required. Open/Dragonfly
and some others DID seem stuck at SMB-1 when I evaled
them about a year ago. Hate it or hate it more, Winders
IS what most of yer Linux/BSD/Unix servers/devices are
gonna be dealing with.
>> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
>> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
>> or 'smart devices'.
>>
>> In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
>> NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
>> In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.
>
> Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
> you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
> someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
> follow tried and tested paths.
solutions to deal with today's real world issues. If I can
at least get that - no spiffy bells and whistles needed -
then everything's cool. Let the bleeding-edge fanatics
work out their bugs.
>
> Horses for courses.
>
The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
on horses and donkeys again .... :-)
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 12:35:08 AM11/8/23
to
On 11/5/23 7:12 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
> Jim Jackson <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
>> for a specific MAC.
>
> Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
> IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
> IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.
Quite true. The "easy" fix, if you have a semi-decent router, is
to set a "static" dhcp thing - ie a particular IP reserved for
a given MAC address.
But it's "off-box" ... "ON box" is better and easier to
cope with down the line.
> Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
> which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.
>
I have one that looks at the MAC address ... and will reserve
a particular IP for that MAC. But, as said above ...
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
> Jim Jackson <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
>> for a specific MAC.
>
> Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
> IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
> IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.
Quite true. The "easy" fix, if you have a semi-decent router, is
to set a "static" dhcp thing - ie a particular IP reserved for
a given MAC address.
But it's "off-box" ... "ON box" is better and easier to
cope with down the line.
> Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
> which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.
>
I have one that looks at the MAC address ... and will reserve
a particular IP for that MAC. But, as said above ...
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 12:43:58 AM11/8/23
to
However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
gui tools, IS a royal pain in the ass. I provided some
networkmanager templates and instructions in this group
for making all that much faster and less painful.
However the next step, "Desktop", DOES have the goodies,
though you have to manually install AND run as root
(AND there's LOT of "junk" co-installed)
You can use "raspi-config" to set X11 or Wayland.
Didn't solve MY issue - which was HARDWARE SPECIFIC -
ie something worked perfectly on a Pi3, but not a
Pi4 - but I found a work-around (eventually).
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 8, 2023, 1:51:14 AM11/8/23
to
On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
> on horses and donkeys again .... 🙂
> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
Well that's an apt description of most politician...The problem is how
to take back control from them. So that I can do what's best for me, not
what some left wing academic sitting in an ivory tower thinks is best
for me.
--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of an airplane.”
Dennis Miller
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 8, 2023, 2:30:04 AM11/8/23
to
On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
> on horses and donkeys again .... :-)
Then there will have to be far fewer of us.
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
> on horses and donkeys again .... :-)
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 8, 2023, 2:30:04 AM11/8/23
to
On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:00:20 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
> communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively.
None of mine are. There are no windows machines on my LAN.
"56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
> Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
> communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively.
Mike Scott
Nov 8, 2023, 7:33:48 AM11/8/23
to
On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> .....
>>>
>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>> of FreeBSD.
>>
>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in
>> favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>
> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?
>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> .....
>>>
>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>> of FreeBSD.
>>
>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in
>> favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>
> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for how
reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect windows to
run that long; IMBW.
(I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot. It
was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still miss
vms even with its vagaries :-) )
mm0fmf
Nov 8, 2023, 7:50:11 AM11/8/23
to
On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
> However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
> gui tools,
Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
> However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
> gui tools,
for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
raspi-config.
Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 8, 2023, 8:34:52 AM11/8/23
to
power cut or a kernel or complete distro upgrade.
I hope its PI4B replacement will be as reliable
I see no reason why not
When we ran a shitload of Unix back in the day it never 'went down'
unless someone installed prototype software on it...Windows was rebooted
daily.
--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.
Richard Lindzen
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 8, 2023, 8:37:05 AM11/8/23
to
I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
different way already.
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.
Charlie Gibbs
Nov 8, 2023, 12:40:12 PM11/8/23
to
On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
>> on horses and donkeys again .... :-)
>
> Then there will have to be far fewer of us.
Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
>> on horses and donkeys again .... :-)
>
> Then there will have to be far fewer of us.
politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can.
It's all gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Nov 8, 2023, 10:27:40 PM11/8/23
to
On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
> solid or more in the past; currently at 3.
Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had
Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
> solid or more in the past; currently at 3.
been running without a reboot for over seven years.
mm0fmf
Nov 8, 2023, 10:27:45 PM11/8/23
to
On 08/11/2023 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
>> On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
>>> gui tools,
>>
>> Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
>> for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
>> raspi-config.
>>
>> Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.
>>
> Never heard of nmtui before
>
> I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
> different way already.
>
>
>
Doesn't work how?
> On 08/11/2023 12:50, mm0fmf wrote:
>> On 08/11/2023 05:43, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> However setting things like a static IP on 'lite', no
>>> gui tools,
>>
>> Rasbian lite installed here. nmtui is a text mode graphical interface
>> for network configuration that is present. Looks like and works like
>> raspi-config.
>>
>> Don't say there's no gui for network control when there obviously is.
>>
> Never heard of nmtui before
>
> I tried it. It didn't work. Probably because I have done things a
> different way already.
>
>
>
It's not installed?
It doesn't load or show you a menu of options?
It doesn't have access to network devices?
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 8, 2023, 10:27:49 PM11/8/23
to
there is even an interface to configure.
>
>
>
>
--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.
Mike Scott
Nov 8, 2023, 10:27:49 PM11/8/23
to
On 08/11/2023 14:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
> Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
>> solid or more in the past; currently at 3.
>
> Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had
> been running without a reboot for over seven years.
>
I suspect the prize is yours then :-}
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:33:46 +0000
> Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
>> solid or more in the past; currently at 3.
>
> Some years back at Yahoo! I turned off some FreeBSD servers that had
> been running without a reboot for over seven years.
>
Chris Elvidge
Nov 8, 2023, 10:27:54 PM11/8/23
to
nmcli say?
Jim Jackson
Nov 8, 2023, 10:28:21 PM11/8/23
to
up large uptimes, in one case with uptime wrapping round (a good few
years ago - an old linux kernel) - I was a bit nervous. I think the max
was 2 and half years - we do have a decent mains power supply, and yes, I
know that at some point I prob. should have done some security upgrades
that might have needed a reboot.
Since I stopped using the EPIA motherboards with VIA chips (20+ years
ago?) I've never had a crash. The boards have either been powered down
for hardware changes, kernel upgrades, and once because of finger
trouble - I typed shutdown in the wrong ssh session!!!
The server runs DNS, DHCP, Syslog, SMTP, IMAP, NFS, SMB, NTP, HTTP
servers as well as doing various LAN monitoring - currently on a PI3B,
with an upgrade to 4B being planned. Needless to say the NFS, SMB, HTTP
traffic is light, except when backups running!
Martin Gregorie
Nov 8, 2023, 10:29:16 PM11/8/23
to
On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:40:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
>>> donkeys again .... :-)
No chance! There hasn't been enough farmland in the USA to feed all the
> On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
>>> donkeys again .... :-)
horses needed to replace all diesel and petrol-powered road transport
since the late 1960s. Cities have expanded a lot since then as well, which
has in turn reduced available farmland still further during the last 70
years.
> Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
> politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can. It's all
> gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
mm0fmf
Nov 8, 2023, 10:29:17 PM11/8/23
to
anything and that is what I wrote about several posts back.
nmcli will show the interfaces and whether NM is managing them. If it
isn't you need to edit /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf so they
are managed by NM then you can use nmtui. nmtui was so very simple to
use having used the NM applet on various Linux desktops, just a text
mode version of what I've used for some time.
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 11:05:59 PM11/8/23
to
On 11/8/23 7:33 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> .....
>>>>
>>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>>> of FreeBSD.
>>>
>>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
>>> in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>>
>> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
>
> And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?
Depends on the LOAD. If not much is going on it can
> On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> .....
>>>>
>>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>>> of FreeBSD.
>>>
>>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
>>> in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.
>>
>> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
>
> And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?
be fairly conservative, maybe 70 watts.
> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9 months
> solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for how
> run that long; IMBW.
I did have a simple Raspbian (very early) running on a Pi-1 for
about six+ years without interruption. It only does ONE thing though.
I'd forgotten it existed. Same SD card for all those years too.
Upgraded it to Bullseye and a new card a couple of years ago.
It'll likely run for a decade.
Now a very BUSY/DIVERSE system ... hard to say how long Linux
would run without a reboot. Actually Win-Server is pretty good
in that respect. Thing is, if "busy", you generally do some
kind of updates LONG before the system becomes unstable.
With Linux, updated kernels come out rather frequently and
I always reboot so everything will 'take'.
> (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot. It
> was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still miss
> vms even with its vagaries :-) )
and DID like it. It was well ahead of its time in many
respects. I'd be happy if some guru would kind of revive
it, adding a few more modern features, esp internet stuff.
You USED to be able to get VMS that'd run on X86, maybe ARM,
emulators but the owners decided to end that. There ARE
articles on running Unix s-V on a Pi however. VMS was much
better. Maybe after I'm fully retired ...
In any case the BSDs *are* solid. They don't try to keep
up with the latest fads. Perfect long-term function seems
to be the goal. Linux is far easier to work with, but that
may come with a price sometimes.
The systems that intrigue me are those they put on NASA
deep space probes and such. The redundancy, the ability
to work around serious hardware problems, amazing. That
is *art* ......
56d.1152
Nov 8, 2023, 11:36:09 PM11/8/23
to
On 11/8/23 8:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/11/2023 12:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>>>> of FreeBSD.
>>>>
>>>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>>>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
>>>> in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked
>>>> back.
>>>
>>> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
>>
>> And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?
>>
>> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9
>> months solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for
>> how reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect
>> windows to run that long; IMBW.
>>
>> (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot.
>> It was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still
>> miss vms even with its vagaries :-) )
>>
>>
> My (current) home linux server never 'goes down' except when there is a
> power cut or a kernel or complete distro upgrade.
>
> I hope its PI4B replacement will be as reliable
I'm gonna suggest an ASUS "Tuf"/"ROG" board instead.
> On 08/11/2023 12:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 08/11/2023 05:28, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>> On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>>>> of FreeBSD.
>>>>
>>>> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works
>>>> well enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows
>>>> in favour of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked
>>>> back.
>>>
>>> Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)
>>
>> And what's the power (watts :-}) difference I wonder?
>>
>> Incidentally, freebsd is pretty reliable - I've had it run for 9
>> months solid or more in the past; currently at 3. I've no feeling for
>> how reliable linux is for that sort of duration. I'd not expect
>> windows to run that long; IMBW.
>>
>> (I once had a vax/vms system still going after a year without reboot.
>> It was only stopped because of a company Christmas shutdown. I still
>> miss vms even with its vagaries :-) )
>>
>>
> My (current) home linux server never 'goes down' except when there is a
> power cut or a kernel or complete distro upgrade.
>
> I hope its PI4B replacement will be as reliable
Much faster, very very reliable, all the BIOS tweaks
fully exposed. More expensive than a Pi4 of course ...
but you get what you pay for.
> I see no reason why not
> When we ran a shitload of Unix back in the day it never 'went down'
> unless someone installed prototype software on it...Windows was rebooted
> daily.
Actually, I've learned to set auto-reboot on Pi's
that are running 'messy' - graphics/com-intensive -
apps. Crontab it at 6am or whatever ... gets rid
of all those little memory leaks and unclosed
subprocesses.
Winders is a MESS. Nobody at M$ really understands how
it all works, so it's blind patches and tweaks and damn
the side-effects. Tell the stupid consumers it's all
THEIR fault. Bet there's STILL some original Gates
code from the Ancient Times in there. But - Granny KEEPS
buying it ... hey, it comes "free" with yer new laptop !
Hmmm ... all that M$ cloud stuff, does anyone think it
runs on Winders Server ??? :-)
56d.1152
Nov 9, 2023, 12:05:09 AM11/9/23
to
'nmcli' does exist and DOES work ... theoretically
anyhow. However it's a CRAPPY/COMPLEX/INFLEXIBLE
utility. I'm about to start writing something better
"for the rest of us". I'll post it when it's good.
56d.1152
Nov 9, 2023, 12:18:31 AM11/9/23
to
Alas nmcli is quite user-unfriendly IMHO. There are days I
change network stuff several TIMES a day and nmcli is NOT
my buddy. Ergo the 'templates' I posted the other day for
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections
I'm beginning to work on a Python script that'll be much
easier to use than nmcli. Still text/terminal, but aimed
at "the rest of us", the ability to do usual tweaks very
easily.
Laziness is the mother of all invention :-)
mm0fmf
Nov 9, 2023, 2:58:45 AM11/9/23
to
On 09/11/2023 05:16, 56d.1152 wrote:
> 'nmcli' .... but I'm not a nit-picker, typos happen, often.
No nmtui is the graphical style textual command and nmcli is the pure
> 'nmcli' .... but I'm not a nit-picker, typos happen, often.
CLI command.
However, in your case the command is *plonk*!
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 9, 2023, 3:59:42 AM11/9/23
to
On 08/11/2023 17:12, Chris Elvidge wrote:
Maybe later :-)
Charlie Gibbs
Nov 9, 2023, 2:29:27 PM11/9/23
to
On 2023-11-08, Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:40:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
>>>> donkeys again .... :-)
>
> No chance! There hasn't been enough farmland in the USA to feed all the
> horses needed to replace all diesel and petrol-powered road transport
> since the late 1960s. Cities have expanded a lot since then as well, which
> has in turn reduced available farmland still further during the last 70
> years.
The problem I heard about horses was waste disposal.
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:40:10 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 00:28:41 -0500 "56d.1152" <56d....@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying on horses and
>>>> donkeys again .... :-)
>
> No chance! There hasn't been enough farmland in the USA to feed all the
> horses needed to replace all diesel and petrol-powered road transport
> since the late 1960s. Cities have expanded a lot since then as well, which
> has in turn reduced available farmland still further during the last 70
> years.
>> Just as well. There are too damned many of us as it is, and the
>> politicians are pushing population growth as hard as they can. It's all
>> gonna crash, sooner or later (probably sooner).
>
> Global population has grown by over 300% in my lifetime.
2.5 billion, so for me it's just been a 220% increase since birth.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.
56d.1152
Nov 14, 2023, 12:13:18 AM11/14/23
to
SO many snobs in the LiniVerse ... SO sad.
56d.1152
Nov 14, 2023, 2:01:13 AM11/14/23
to
On 11/6/23 4:21 PM, druck wrote:
> On 04/11/2023 03:59, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
>> can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
>> to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
>
> The Pi 4 and later use Wayland (perpetually unfinished and unfit for
> purpose windowing system) so LXDE isn't used. Try switching back to X11
> and all will be well.
Yep, as noted elsewhere, that WAS the cause.
Though, with Wayland+LXDE, /home/pi/.config/autostart FOLDER
is the right place ... but you have to drag/modify .desktop
files into it. Not quite as flexible unless you point 'em
at bash or python scripts.
I'm totally off Wayland at this point. Not, probably NEVER,
Ready For Prime Time. It has a *niche* with "gamers" ...
which is ok so far as it goes ... but for max compatibility
stick with X11. 'Gamers' are a rather small segment of the
LiniVerse - "infrastructure/devices" is where it's really at.
Which brings us to BookWorm/NetworkManager, esp for non-GUI
headless applications ... but I've provided some cheap/EZ
work-arounds.
> On 04/11/2023 03:59, 56d.1152 wrote:
>> DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
>> can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
>> to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
>
> The Pi 4 and later use Wayland (perpetually unfinished and unfit for
> purpose windowing system) so LXDE isn't used. Try switching back to X11
> and all will be well.
Yep, as noted elsewhere, that WAS the cause.
Though, with Wayland+LXDE, /home/pi/.config/autostart FOLDER
is the right place ... but you have to drag/modify .desktop
files into it. Not quite as flexible unless you point 'em
at bash or python scripts.
I'm totally off Wayland at this point. Not, probably NEVER,
Ready For Prime Time. It has a *niche* with "gamers" ...
which is ok so far as it goes ... but for max compatibility
stick with X11. 'Gamers' are a rather small segment of the
LiniVerse - "infrastructure/devices" is where it's really at.
Which brings us to BookWorm/NetworkManager, esp for non-GUI
headless applications ... but I've provided some cheap/EZ
work-arounds.
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