New BBC and Absolute radio streaming URLS

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 13, 2021, 8:11:03 AM3/13/21

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A. Dumas

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Mar 13, 2021, 9:50:03 AM3/13/21

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On 13-03-2021 14:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
> party programs or hardware
>
> this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work out
> what's up....

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 13, 2021, 9:53:23 AM3/13/21

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On 13/03/2021 14:40, A. Dumas wrote:
> On 13-03-2021 14:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
>> party programs or hardware
>>
>> this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work
>> out what's up....
>
> Ah yes. This is my Dutch-French version. In practice I only ever listen
> to the ad-free Fip or France Musique streams. (Not sure about links
> further down which I rarely check.)
>
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These are the *obsolescent* URLS replaced by what I posted

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

williamwright

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Mar 13, 2021, 11:46:09 AM3/13/21

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On 13/03/2021 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
> party programs or hardware

Ohh that works good, but where's Times Radio?

Bill

Andy Burns

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Mar 13, 2021, 12:04:34 PM3/13/21

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williamwright wrote:

> Ohh that works good, but where's Times Radio?

<https://timesradio.wireless.radio/stream>

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 13, 2021, 12:16:43 PM3/13/21

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http://timesradio.wireless.radio/stream?ref=rf

>
> Bill

--
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people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

Robin

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Mar 13, 2021, 12:40:38 PM3/13/21

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On 13/03/2021 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
> party programs or hardware
>

It's not D-I-Y but I use <http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/default.asp>
because it offers the choice of the different codecs and different
quality streams incl HLS

http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/mp3.asp
http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/other.asp
etc

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

A. Dumas

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Mar 13, 2021, 12:43:39 PM3/13/21

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Ok, I'll change them, thanks. I hadn't noticed because they still work
for now!

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 13, 2021, 2:20:53 PM3/13/21

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On 13/03/2021 17:40, Robin wrote:
> On 13/03/2021 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
>> party programs or hardware
>>
>
> It's not D-I-Y but I use <http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/default.asp>
> because it offers the choice of the different codecs and different
> quality streams incl HLS
>
> http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/mp3.asp
> http://www.radiofeeds.co.uk/other.asp
> etc
>

yes. I found that site - a good source.
My issue was to create a unified interface to live radio and TV,
recorded material - music and DVD and off air TV - that would be
globally accessible.

So I could ditch DVD plates, CD players. radio tuners etc etc and just
run everything of networked devices .

That list was what went into the code

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 13, 2021, 2:22:08 PM3/13/21

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A precise definition of 'obsolescent' - still works, for now....;-)

--
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a car with the cramped public exposure of  an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

Andy Burns

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Mar 13, 2021, 2:24:38 PM3/13/21

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A. Dumas wrote:

> Ok, I'll change them, thanks. I hadn't noticed because they still work
> for now!

Probably only for another week or so ...

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/supported-devices/internet-radio-closure>

Roger

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Mar 13, 2021, 4:17:56 PM3/13/21

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On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 13:11:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
>party programs or hardware
>
>this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work out
>what's up....
>

>"BBC - Radio 4"=>"http://stream.live.vc.bbcmedia.co.uk/bbc_radio_fourfm",

I've tried only this URL; it's MP3 at 128 kbps, not the higher
quality AAC at 320 kbps. I presume that the same applies to all
the BBC URLs.
--
Roger

David Taylor

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Mar 14, 2021, 1:39:17 AM3/14/21

to

On 13/03/2021 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
> party programs or hardware
>
> this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work out
> what's up....

Any chance of a copy without the word wrapping?

Thanks!
--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Mar 14, 2021, 4:08:52 AM3/14/21

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So on those where the international feed is different from the UK what is
the difference content wise? Also why is it every few years or sooner quite
often radio services feel the need to alter their streaming addresses? Is
there some new tech they want to take advantage of? Its going to be a pain
till all the aggregators catch up particularly with the bbc ones.
Also somebody at tune in wants to grow some balls and challenge the ruling
on paying a licence for stations they have links to outside the UK, since if
you follow that logic through and there are several aggregators showing the
same station the record industry would get several payments for the same
station, but instead Tune In hands elected to pull he links in the uk, which
stopws you playing the stations, which I'm sure was not the real intention
as media companies want to plug their content surely?
Brian

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Andy Burns

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Mar 14, 2021, 4:13:15 AM3/14/21

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Brian Gaff wrote:

> So on those where the international feed is different from the UK what is
> the difference content wise?

possibly certain content will be disallowed (e.g sporting events where
they only have uk broadcast rights) and perhaps bitrate is lower for
listeners outside the uk?

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Mar 14, 2021, 4:14:16 AM3/14/21

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Is this what the little cryptic messages are on the streams apparently
randomly at the moment?

Brian

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Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Mar 14, 2021, 4:15:50 AM3/14/21

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I do hope it does not affect local radio since a lot of local bbc stations
late night actively encourage listeners who used to live there who are
abroad to call in.

Brian

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Unsteadyken

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Mar 14, 2021, 4:49:57 AM3/14/21

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In article <s2kgai$nef$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brian Gaff (Sofa) says...

> Its going to be a pain
> till all the aggregators catch up particularly with the bbc ones.
>

Airable has done so.
https://www.airablenow.com/airable/radio/

The 320k BBC stream now identifies as BBC Radio 3 HD

This on my Yamaha AVR which uses Airable after a change from VTuner with
a firmware update a couple of years ago

Internet radio lags behind FM by a few seconds. Switching from FM on the
last Pip of the time signal I catch the last couple of pips from the
net.

--
Ken

A. Dumas

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Mar 14, 2021, 6:26:58 AM3/14/21

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I don't mind that the links change from time to time, that's how it
goes. But why do they not simply list their streaming URLs? Like many
with a Raspberry Pi, I make my own streaming radio player! Do
manufaturers have to pay for that information??

From
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/playback-issues/help-fixing-internet-radio
in a VERY IMPORTANT RED BOX:

"We make every attempt to provide manufacturers with information that
allows them to offer BBC Radio services to their customers. Support for
these devices is the responsibility of the manufacturer, as they control
what content is offered on the device and how to access it. If you’re
not able to resolve the problem yourself, you’ll need to contact your
manufacturer’s support team."

Cursitor Doom

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Mar 14, 2021, 2:36:00 PM3/14/21

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On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 13:11:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[...]

Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
listen to the shite the BBC has to offer, given that they'd have
literally tens of thousands of better alternatives at their
fingertips.
--

"Andrey Semyonovitch really was rather stupid; he attached himself to the
progressive cause and 'our younger generation' from enthusiasm. He was one
of the numerous and varied legion of dullards, of half-animate abortions,
conceited, half-educated coxcombs who attach themselves to the idea most
in fashion, only to vulgarise it and who caricature every cause they serve,
however sincerely."

- Fyodor Dostoevsky

Axel Berger

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Mar 14, 2021, 3:33:32 PM3/14/21

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Cursitor Doom wrote:
> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,

Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?

I used to listen on longwave after the demise of the British forces'
BFBS. You can't think what a great change podcasts and streeams have
made to my listening.

--
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X in | D-50829 Köln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
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The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 14, 2021, 3:34:17 PM3/14/21

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The issue is that giving the streams away allows people to contravene
the licence, buy a UK VPS and build a proxy server

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 14, 2021, 3:40:18 PM3/14/21

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On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>
> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
>

I sympathise.
In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany

> I used to listen on longwave after the demise of the British forces'
> BFBS. You can't think what a great change podcasts and streeams have
> made to my listening.
>
>

Indeed

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

A. Dumas

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Mar 14, 2021, 3:46:30 PM3/14/21

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On 14-03-2021 20:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
> re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany

?? Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France; those are the ones I know;
they all have at least one national radio station with classical music.

(And at least until recently all on FM, now maybe DAB+, I don't know.)

charles

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Mar 14, 2021, 5:01:21 PM3/14/21

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In article <s2lor1$5qt$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
> > Cursitor Doom wrote:
> >> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
> >> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
> >
> > Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
> > Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
> >
> I sympathise.
> In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
> re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany

France Musique was/is in Europe.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Axel Berger

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Mar 14, 2021, 5:03:15 PM3/14/21

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"A. Dumas" wrote:
> one national radio station with classical music.

I neither need nor want music on radio, although I agree that if it
can't be avoided classic is better than most. BBC Radio 4 is all about
content delivered through the spoken word. Not everything is to my taste
or interest, bit enough to make hard sometinmes to keep up with
listening to all the podcasts and recordings coming in.

Computer Nerd Kev

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Mar 14, 2021, 6:24:59 PM3/14/21

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The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/03/2021 10:26, A. Dumas wrote:
>>
>> I don't mind that the links change from time to time, that's how it
>> goes. But why do they not simply list their streaming URLs? Like many
>> with a Raspberry Pi, I make my own streaming radio player! Do
>> manufaturers have to pay for that information??
>>
>> From
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/playback-issues/help-fixing-internet-radio
>> in a VERY IMPORTANT RED BOX:
>>
>> "We make every attempt to provide manufacturers with information that
>> allows them to offer BBC Radio services to their customers. Support for
>> these devices is the responsibility of the manufacturer, as they control
>> what content is offered on the device and how to access it. If you're
>> not able to resolve the problem yourself, you'll need to contact your
>> manufacturer's support team."
>
> The issue is that giving the streams away allows people to contravene
> the licence, buy a UK VPS and build a proxy server

Interesting, I gather you're talking about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_in_the_United_Kingdom#Legal_restrictions

However I don't know of any such regulations in Australia and the
ABC hides their internet radio links too. I don't even want to
build my own internet radio with them - I just want to paste them
into XMMS running on my PC and press play. It's no more technical
than viewing the webpage where they tell you to use their smart
phone app instead.

Their URLs have been known to change too, of course.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Bob Eager

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Mar 14, 2021, 8:23:54 PM3/14/21

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On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:00:38 +0000, charles wrote:

> In article <s2lor1$5qt$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>> > Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> >> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>> >> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>> >
>> > Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the
>> > BBC.
>> > Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
>> >
>> I sympathise.
>> In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
>> re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany
>
> France Musique was/is in Europe.

Listening to Framce Musique right now. Using http://radio.garden

--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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Cursitor Doom

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Mar 14, 2021, 8:52:06 PM3/14/21

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On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 19:40:17 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>>> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>>
>> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
>> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?

That's fine if you want to listen to Globalist Left-wing propaganda
and nothing else. Personally I can't bear it.

>>
>I sympathise.
>In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was

>re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in German.

You must be joking. When I was living in Germany ISTR there was no
shortage of classical music on both TV and radio. De Radio Kultur did
a lot of it (that's the only station name I can remember as it was a
good few years ago).

>> I used to listen on longwave after the demise of the British forces'
>> BFBS. You can't think what a great change podcasts and streeams have
>> made to my listening.
>>
>>
>Indeed

Yes indeed, but *nothing* the BBC has to offer, I'm sorry to say.

A. Dumas

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Mar 14, 2021, 10:00:02 PM3/14/21

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Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
>> France Musique was/is in Europe.
>
> Listening to Framce Musique right now. Using http://radio.garden

Dave Plowman (News)

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:49:49 AM3/15/21

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In article <604E656D...@Berger-Odenthal.De>,

Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
> Cursitor Doom wrote:
> > Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
> > listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,

> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?

It's Doom. He hates all good things British. Why he fled the country.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

MB

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Mar 15, 2021, 10:52:30 AM3/15/21

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On 15/03/2021 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> It's Doom. He hates all good things British. Why he fled the country.

Has he got ginger hair and living in a Californian mansion?

Tilt from Arch

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Mar 15, 2021, 2:08:28 PM3/15/21

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The Natural Philosopher in data 14/3/2021 20:40 ha scritto:

> On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>>> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>>
>> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
>> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
>>
> I sympathise.
> In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
> re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany

The Italian RAI has a dedicated radio for classical music:
https://icestreaming.rai.it/5.mp3

--
Tilt

Pete

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Mar 15, 2021, 7:23:11 PM3/15/21

to

In article <s2idl6$r07$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
>party programs or hardware
>
>this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work out
>what's up....
>

Ahh, thanks! Was just listening to the Blues Show on BBC Radio 2 (old link),
and got the dreaded "22 March" message for the first time. I just tried
your revised link and it works fine.

The way I'm reading all the stuff on the BBCSounds help, though, I'm
wondering if it will *keep* working after 22 March! They talk about
providing "authorized providers" with an "API key". Know anything
about that?

Thanks,

-- Pete --

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 16, 2021, 2:14:20 AM3/16/21

to

Couldn't find em driving through Germany: Netherlands, Belgium and
France, I did.

Mostly re broadcasts of BBC radio 3....

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

Pete

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Mar 16, 2021, 9:03:25 PM3/16/21

to

In article <s2kb2k$lg4$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Taylor <david-...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>On 13/03/2021 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> For people who just want to listen and not go through the faff of 3rd
>> party programs or hardware
>>
>> this is stripped from my updated media server code but you can work out
>> what's up....
>Any chance of a copy without the word wrapping?
>

Here ya go...
(A quick reformat using a utility of mine... (:-))

"Classic FM"=>"http://media-ice.musicradio.com/ClassicFMMP3",
"Absolute Radio"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absoluteradio.mp3",
"Absolute Classic Rock"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absoluteclassicrock.mp3",
"Absolute Radio 60s"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absolute60s.mp3",
"Absolute Radio 70s"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absolute70s.mp3",
"Absolute Radio 80s"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absolute80s.mp3",
"Absolute Radio 90s"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absolute90s.mp3",
"Absolute Radio 00s"=>"http://ais.absoluteradio.co.uk/absolute00s.mp3",
"LBC UK" => "http://media-ice.musicradio.com:80/LBCUKMP3Low",
"BBC - Radio 1"=>"http://stream.live.vc.bbcmedia.co.uk/bbc_radio_one",
"BBC - Radio 2"=>"http://stream.live.vc.bbcmedia.co.uk/bbc_radio_two",
"BBC - Radio 3"=>"http://stream.live.vc.bbcmedia.co.uk/bbc_radio_three",

"BBC - Radio 4"=>"http://stream.live.vc.bbcmedia.co.uk/bbc_radio_fourfm",

-- Pete --

David Taylor

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Mar 17, 2021, 7:22:50 AM3/17/21

to

On 17/03/2021 01:03, Pete wrote:
> Here ya go...
> (A quick reformat using a utility of mine... (:-))

[]
Brilliant, many thanks!

tony sayer

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Mar 21, 2021, 10:12:46 AM3/21/21

to

In article <s2lor1$5qt$1...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

>On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>>> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>>
>> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
>> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
>>
>I sympathise.
>In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
>re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany
>
>
>> I used to listen on longwave after the demise of the British forces'
>> BFBS. You can't think what a great change podcasts and streeams have
>> made to my listening.
>>
>>
>Indeed
>
>
>

Don't quite understand what your getting at here are you saying theres
no classic stations in Germany or ones worth listening to?

Still got Bayern Klassik?..

Https://www.br-klassik.de/programm/livestream/livestream-158.html

Let alone the excellent Czech D-Dur service from Prague:)

https://www.mujrozhlas.cz/zive/d-dur?autopla

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 21, 2021, 10:44:21 AM3/21/21

to

On 21/03/2021 14:02, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <s2lor1$5qt$1...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>> On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still want to
>>>> listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>>>
>>> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for the BBC.
>>> Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even comparable to them?
>>>
>> I sympathise.
>> In continental Europe on FM the only classical music radio was
>> re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in Germany
>>
>>
>>> I used to listen on longwave after the demise of the British forces'
>>> BFBS. You can't think what a great change podcasts and streeams have
>>> made to my listening.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed
>>
>>
>>
>
> Don't quite understand what your getting at here are you saying theres
> no classic stations in Germany or ones worth listening to?
>

No, I am saying that I found none on FM radio while driving from
Dunquerque to Koblenz..after Aachen.

> Still got Bayern Klassik?..
>
> Https://www.br-klassik.de/programm/livestream/livestream-158.html
>
> Let alone the excellent Czech D-Dur service from Prague:)
>
> https://www.mujrozhlas.cz/zive/d-dur?autopla
>

--

Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

Axel Berger

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Mar 21, 2021, 8:31:56 PM3/21/21

to

tony sayer wrote:
> Don't quite understand what your getting at here are you saying theres
> no classic stations in Germany or ones worth listening to?

Not sure who "you" is in your answer. In this thread I'm exclusively
speaking about radio, i.e. the spoken word, while several others are
going on about music.

Music, specifically classic music is by definition old and can come from
anywhere like a deceased relative's record collection. Radio is valuable
for its currently relevant content and must be received now. That's
where differences in quality come in. Anyone can put on records.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,

Mar 22, 2021, 3:00:59 AM3/22/21

to

On 22/03/2021 00:33, Axel Berger wrote:
> tony sayer wrote:
>> Don't quite understand what your getting at here are you saying theres
>> no classic stations in Germany or ones worth listening to?
>
> Not sure who "you" is in your answer. In this thread I'm exclusively
> speaking about radio, i.e. the spoken word, while several others are
> going on about music.
>

radio does not mean, and never has meant 'the spoken word'. Especially
before the advent of recording

> Music, specifically classic music is by definition old

No, it is still being written today, mainly for film scores its true,
but it is being written..classical music is scored music for an
ensemble, with an conductor and may instruments..

and can come from
> anywhere like a deceased relative's record collection. Radio is valuable
> for its currently relevant content and must be received now. That's
> where differences in quality come in. Anyone can put on records.
>
>

And anyone can tell lies over the air as well.

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

#Paul

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Mar 22, 2021, 10:32:05 PM3/22/21

to

Axel Berger <Sp...@berger-odenthal.de> wrote:
> Not sure who "you" is in your answer. In this thread I'm exclusively
> speaking about radio, i.e. the spoken word, while several others are
> going on about music.

I don't know about usage in Germany, but in (IME) in
the UK, Australia, and NZ "radio" might mean any kind
of radio broadcast of audio, whether of speech, music,
weird experimental sound sculptures, etc; or combinations
thereof.

#Paul

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 23, 2021, 5:04:17 AM3/23/21

to

Radio (or wireless!) in the UK effectively means 'sound transmission by
radio waves'
If it's speech, it's colloquially known as 'talk radio'. Sometimes.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

A. Dumas

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Mar 23, 2021, 5:40:37 AM3/23/21

to

On 23-03-2021 10:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/03/2021 20:15, #Paul wrote:
>> Axel Berger <Sp...@berger-odenthal.de> wrote:
>>> Not sure who "you" is in your answer. In this thread I'm exclusively
>>> speaking about radio, i.e. the spoken word, while several others are
>>> going on about music.
>>
>> I don't know about usage in Germany, but in (IME) in
>> the UK, Australia, and NZ "radio" might mean any kind
>> of radio broadcast of audio, whether of speech, music,
>> weird experimental sound sculptures, etc; or combinations
>> thereof.
>

> Radio (or wireless!) in the UK effectively means 'sound transmission by
> radio waves'

In German, too. Radio or Hörfunk is both music and talk radio. Maybe
it's different for him locally, or maybe he invented his own meaning.

Also, it is known to happen that German people, too, get their music
from sources other than dead relatives.

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 23, 2021, 5:58:14 AM3/23/21

to

Most classical music is from dead people.

Oddly enough my father - long since dead - only left a few records of note.

Some wartime jazz, and a dreadful song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBetidGgdSw

But it did wake me up to the steel guitar, which although I never learnt
to play one, I still love to hear played well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4naoG2z4Zcc

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Martin Gregorie

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Mar 23, 2021, 8:05:01 AM3/23/21

to

I think he means speech radio, i.e. BBC Radio 4 in the UK, WOR in New
York City and 2YA in NZ.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie

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Mar 23, 2021, 8:12:11 AM3/23/21

to

We need a better description than 'talk radio': there is far too much
crap and assorted political raving around to lump it all together under
that the same heading as Radio 4 or WOR.

At least when one of the political ravers is called a 'shock jock' you
know what to expect.

Martin Gregorie

unread,

Mar 23, 2021, 8:30:34 AM3/23/21

to

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 09:58:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> But it did wake me up to the steel guitar, which although I never learnt
> to play one, I still love to hear played well...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4naoG2z4Zcc
>

The best steel guitar player I've seen live is B J Cole, whi has been
known to tour with Hank Wangford & the Lost Cowboys. I don't normally
listen to C&W, but I'll go to one of their gigs any time.

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 23, 2021, 9:10:38 AM3/23/21

to

On 23/03/2021 12:12, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 09:04:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/2021 20:15, #Paul wrote:
>>> Axel Berger <Sp...@berger-odenthal.de> wrote:
>>>> Not sure who "you" is in your answer. In this thread I'm exclusively
>>>> speaking about radio, i.e. the spoken word, while several others are
>>>> going on about music.
>>>
>>> I don't know about usage in Germany, but in (IME) in the UK, Australia,
>>> and NZ "radio" might mean any kind of radio broadcast of audio, whether
>>> of speech, music, weird experimental sound sculptures, etc; or
>>> combinations thereof.
>>>
>>> #Paul
>>>
>> Radio (or wireless!) in the UK effectively means 'sound transmission by
>> radio waves'
>> If it's speech, it's colloquially known as 'talk radio'. Sometimes.
>
> We need a better description than 'talk radio': there is far too much
> crap and assorted political raving around to lump it all together under
> that the same heading as Radio 4 or WOR.

Indeed. Radio 4 is definitely far too much crap and assorted political
raving...

>
> At least when one of the political ravers is called a 'shock jock' you
> know what to expect.
>
>

Indeed. Instead if being called an 'expert' or a 'political commentator'

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

The Natural Philosopher

unread,

Mar 23, 2021, 9:12:59 AM3/23/21

to

On 23/03/2021 12:30, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 09:58:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> But it did wake me up to the steel guitar, which although I never learnt
>> to play one, I still love to hear played well...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4naoG2z4Zcc
>>
> The best steel guitar player I've seen live is B J Cole, whi has been
> known to tour with Hank Wangford & the Lost Cowboys. I don't normally
> listen to C&W, but I'll go to one of their gigs any time.
>
>
>
>
>

Ah - Hank Wangford, yes, great boys and girls!

Ah they gigging this year?

Axel Berger

unread,

Mar 23, 2021, 9:45:19 AM3/23/21

to

#Paul wrote:
> but in (IME) in
> the UK, Australia, and NZ "radio" might mean any kind
> of radio broadcast of audio, whether of speech, music,
> weird experimental sound sculptures, etc; or combinations
> thereof.

Same here of course. But this thread began with the topic of quality at
the top. Of course most stations and all the local ones offer little
more than a sound background fpr the advertisements. But BBC, especially
Radio 4 and to a far lesser degree some German programs are different.

Martin Gregorie

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Mar 23, 2021, 10:15:30 AM3/23/21

to

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:12:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 23/03/2021 12:30, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 09:58:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> But it did wake me up to the steel guitar, which although I never
>>> learnt to play one, I still love to hear played well...
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4naoG2z4Zcc
>>>
>> The best steel guitar player I've seen live is B J Cole, whi has been
>> known to tour with Hank Wangford & the Lost Cowboys. I don't normally
>> listen to C&W, but I'll go to one of their gigs any time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Ah - Hank Wangford, yes, great boys and girls!
>
> Ah they gigging this year?

Nothing on their website ATM: Hank is getting on a bit, so I'll be a
little surprised if they hit to road again. I last saw him during one of
his Village Halls gigs, so a while ago.

Stephen Pelc

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Mar 23, 2021, 11:13:01 AM3/23/21

to

On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 01:33:11 +0100, Axel Berger
<Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

> specifically classic music is by definition old

Surely not true since the development of electric music.

When I listen to a Philip Glass piano piece, I'm listening to
classical music IMHO.

In the UK, the principal supporter of classical composers
for a while was the Grateful Dead.

Stephen

--
Stephen Pelc, ste...@vfxforth.com <<< NEW
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, +44 (0)78 0390 3612, +34 649 662 974
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

Martin Gregorie

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Mar 23, 2021, 12:32:02 PM3/23/21

to

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:12:59 +0000, Stephen Pelc wrote:

> When I listen to a Philip Glass piano piece, I'm listening to classical
> music IMHO.
>

One of the best orchestral concerts I've been to was at Cambridge Corn
Exchange in 2000, when the Britten Sinfonia played a concert of pieces by
John Adams and Frank Zappa.

Definitely a good fit in the Contemporary Classical category.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,

Mar 23, 2021, 1:03:14 PM3/23/21

to

On 23/03/2021 13:46, Axel Berger wrote:
> #Paul wrote:
>> but in (IME) in
>> the UK, Australia, and NZ "radio" might mean any kind
>> of radio broadcast of audio, whether of speech, music,
>> weird experimental sound sculptures, etc; or combinations
>> thereof.
>
> Same here of course. But this thread began with the topic of quality at
> the top. Of course most stations and all the local ones offer little
> more than a sound background fpr the advertisements. But BBC, especially
> Radio 4 and to a far lesser degree some German programs are different.
>
>

I would say the reverse. there is far less advertising on radio than on
television, and the BBC advertises more than anyone. Its just paid for
by the EU and by the license fee payer, and consists of wall to wall
progressive left Marxist and woke propaganda

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

Charlie Gibbs

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Mar 23, 2021, 2:36:10 PM3/23/21

to

On 2021-03-23, Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:12:59 +0000, Stephen Pelc wrote:
>
>> When I listen to a Philip Glass piano piece, I'm listening to classical
>> music IMHO.
>
> One of the best orchestral concerts I've been to was at Cambridge Corn
> Exchange in 2000, when the Britten Sinfonia played a concert of pieces by
> John Adams and Frank Zappa.
>
> Definitely a good fit in the Contemporary Classical category.

Billy Joel's album _Fantasies & Delusions_ is a collection of
classical compositions for solo piano. It was released on the
Sony Classical label. A nice touch was the way the album cover
adopted the look of the sheet music publications of G. Schirmer, Inc.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Rink

unread,

May 9, 2021, 2:21:16 PM5/9/21

to

Op 21-3-2021 om 15:44 schreef The Natural Philosopher:

> On 21/03/2021 14:02, tony sayer wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>>> On 14/03/2021 19:35, Axel Berger wrote:
>>>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> Hard to believe anyone with an internet radio would still
>>>>> want to listen to the shite the BBC has to offer,
>>>>
>>>> Come to Germany and you'll see how enormously grateful I am for
>>>> the BBC. Whatever do you have in mind, that could be even
>>>> comparable to them?
>>>>
>>> I sympathise. In continental Europe on FM the only classical
>>> music radio was re-broadcasts for Radio 3 concerts and nothing in
>>> Germany
>>

>> Don't quite understand what your getting at here are you saying
>> theres no classic stations in Germany or ones worth listening to?
>>
> No, I am saying that I found none on FM radio while driving from
> Dunquerque to Koblenz..after Aachen.

In every country you were is at least one classical music station on FM.

France:
France Musique (already mentioned)

Belgium (French speaking):
RTBF Musiq 3:
<https://www.rtbf.be/musiq3/>
RTBF listening does not work on my PC, this one works:
<https://belgiefm.com/musiq3>

Belgium (Dutch speaking):
VRT Klara
<https://klara.be/>
<https://radioplus.be/#/klara/herbeluister>

Netherlands:
NPO Radio 4
<https://www.nporadio4.nl/>
<https://www.nporadio4.nl/online-radio-luisteren/gedraaid>
I hate it when the music is played in a website and not in a separate TAB.

Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen (Aachen - Köln - Bonn, etc)
WDR 3
<https://www1.wdr.de/radio/wdr3/index.html>
<https://www1.wdr.de/radio/player/radioplayer106~_layout-popupVersion.html>

Germany, Rheinland-Pfalz (Koblenz, etc)
SWR 2 (SWR = Südwest Rundfunk)
<https://www.swr.de/swr2/musik-klassik/index.html>
listening in website, or here:
<https://onlineradiobox.com/de/swr2live/?cs=de.swr2live&played=1&lang=nl>

Germany, Nationwide (DAB+, but not everywhere on FM)
Deutschlandfunk Kultur (not 24h classical music)
<https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/>
<https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/unsere-live-streams.2428.de.html>
FM-Frequencies:
<https://www.deutschlandradio.de/index.media.b32f6682d549e179b4d18fb8acc14753.pdf>

Germany, Nationwide (DAB+, but not everywhere on FM)
Klassik Radio (commercial)
<https://www.klassikradio.de/>
<https://www.klassikradio.de/#>
Not on FM in Nordrhein-Westfalen and Rheinland-Pfalz

Have fun!
Rink

Rink

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:16:39 PM7/20/21

to

Op 14-3-2021 om 9:49 schreef Unsteadyken:
> In article <s2kgai$nef$1...@dont-email.me>,
>
> Brian Gaff (Sofa) says...
>
>> Its going to be a pain
>> till all the aggregators catch up particularly with the bbc ones.
>>
>
> Airable has done so.
> https://www.airablenow.com/airable/radio/
>
> The 320k BBC stream now identifies as BBC Radio 3 HD
>
>
> This on my Yamaha AVR which uses Airable after a change from VTuner with
> a firmware update a couple of years ago
>
> Internet radio lags behind FM by a few seconds. Switching from FM on the
> last Pip of the time signal I catch the last couple of pips from the
> net.
>
>
>

I do not see links to radio stations on this website....

NY

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Jul 20, 2021, 2:52:35 PM7/20/21

to

"Rink" <rink.hof.ha...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:sd73u5$q4t$1...@dont-email.me...

>> Internet radio lags behind FM by a few seconds. Switching from FM on the
>> last Pip of the time signal I catch the last couple of pips from the
>> net.

I wonder whether anyone has considered running studios a couple of seconds
early (so when they play the pips at 12:00:00 it's actually 11:59:58) and
delaying FM by the same amount that DAB is inherently delayed, to keep them
in sync ;-)

For a station that only plays recorded music and doesn't have any
second-accurate timechecks, they don't even need to run the studio early.

Or do different radios have different amounts of buffering of the received
data before playing it as an analogue feed to the speaker?

David Higton

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Jul 20, 2021, 4:08:02 PM7/20/21

to

In message <sd761i$l4v$1...@dont-email.me>

That choice is up to the designers of the radio. A longer buffer gives
more resilience against temporary delays in transmission.

David

The Natural Philosopher

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Jul 20, 2021, 7:22:57 PM7/20/21

to

On 20/07/2021 19:51, NY wrote:
>delaying FM by the same amount that DAB is inherently delayed,

Sadly, that is not a constant and depends largely on te recieving
equipments buffers

I listen to internet radio via two software identical computers. The
sound has a different delay on each

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

MB

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Jul 21, 2021, 5:58:30 AM7/21/21

to

On 20/07/2021 19:51, NY wrote:

> I wonder whether anyone has considered running studios a couple of seconds
> early (so when they play the pips at 12:00:00 it's actually 11:59:58) and
> delaying FM by the same amount that DAB is inherently delayed, to keep them
> in sync;-)

What is the point when both VHF FM and DAB have the time transmitted all
the time and displayed on the radio. I would think both of these are
quite accurate enough for most people most of the time.

Anyone needing precision time is going to be using something else.

NY

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Jul 21, 2021, 7:46:16 AM7/21/21

to

"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sd8r45$ecj$1...@dont-email.me...

I don't have any radio that can display the time, even if it is transmitted
as part of RDS. My car radio is the only one that can handle RDS, and that
doesn't set the car's clock - you always have to set it manually , and there
isn't even a "0 or +1 hour" GMT/BST setting to keep the minutes and seconds
the same and only change the hour. I *think* my wife's Honda (dating from
2015) also needs to have the time and daylight savings set manually and it
doesn't set/correct it from the FM RDS or the DAB radio.

The only radios I have are a tuner from a stereo system I bought in 1986,
and my wife's all-in-one music centre that is probably from the 1990s. I use
to have a little clock radio (AM/FM) but it was fairly primitive: manual
needle-on-a-dial tuning and no presets, so there was a great disincentive to
change it from the station that I'd spent ages adjusting to optimum tuning.
If I want to listen to / record from from the radio, I tend to use the 7xx
channels on Freeview, or the Freesat equivalents. I don't know how the
quality (eg bitrate) and error-correction of Freeview/Freesat compare with
DAB.

Theo

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Jul 21, 2021, 9:30:53 AM7/21/21

to

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> Or do different radios have different amounts of buffering of the received
> data before playing it as an analogue feed to the speaker?

There's (at least) two problems:

- time differences with other transmission media. For example lower lag on
FM against DAB. Should FM be delayed to match? That becomes problematic
when you have multiple sources, for example two radios in different rooms.

- time difference against other media the broadcaster doesn't control. For
example people next door cheering when a goal is scored, which your feed
hasn't got to yet. Maybe they're watching the match on a different channel
to yours, which your broadcaster can't delay. In that case they can't have
the goal scored two seconds early to compensate.

Internet streaming is difficult as the stream will wait to fill up its
buffer before it starts, and that time depends on the speed of your
connection. At least DAB and DVB don't suffer from that.

It might be feasible to do something like rate-adaptive buffering - for
example start the stream at a low resolution while you're buffering in the
background, and then upgrade the resolution when there's enough buffered. I
don't know if anyone does that already.

Theo

Andy Burns

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Jul 21, 2021, 10:25:56 AM7/21/21

to

Theo wrote:

> It might be feasible to do something like rate-adaptive buffering - for
> example start the stream at a low resolution while you're buffering in the
> background, and then upgrade the resolution when there's enough buffered. I
> don't know if anyone does that already.

That's the sort of thing that DASH and HLS are capable of, whether
[m]any services start low and adapt upwards, rather than starting with
high quality and adapting downwards, I don't know, you could snoop a few
streaming sessions I suppose ...

NY

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Jul 21, 2021, 2:54:27 PM7/21/21

to

"Dennis Lee Bieber" <wlf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mn8gfg9ivl3ca3d12...@4ax.com...
> If one needs accurate time on an R-Pi, either a network connection to
> NTP servers, a battery-backed RTC module (though those do tend to lose a
> bit of time and need to be resynced to another time source at periods), or
> a GPS time source.

My Pi's are connected to my LAN, so they get the benefit of NTP resyncs
every so often. The problem comes when a Pi reboots and then can't see the
LAN for a while - eg because everything has come back after a power cut and
the router is taking ages to connect to the internet. In that case, the Pi
can be running for a significant period of time with a slightly-wrong time.

I notice this on the Pi which logs data from my weather station: I've seen
occasions when the graphs of temperature, wind speed etc have a section
which goes back in time and then suddenly jumps forwards in time again once
NTP can reset the clock to the correct time. Usually the temporary error is
only 30 minutes or so - enough to create an "interesting" blip (*) but not
enough to go back to before the beginning of the graph (I plot the last 48
hours' data).

What is the accuracy of the clock on the Pi if it initially syncs with an
NTP source but then loses network contact while remaining booted up? What is
the default resync period for Raspberry PiOS - is it every 24 hours or is it
more/less frequent that that? My old (Windows 7) laptop had a very poor RTC
which lost a lot of time - several minutes over the default resync time of
Windows - so I found the registry keys to make it resync more frequently -
probably once per day. My new Windows 10 laptop never seems to be out by
more than a few seconds, so either its RTC is more accurate or it resyncs
more often.

(*) We're used to see discontinuities on the y axis of a value-versus-time
graph, but a discontinuity on the x axis caused by the time setting itself
to a silly value and then righting itself, is not something that we're used
to seeing.

Martin Gregorie

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Jul 21, 2021, 3:39:39 PM7/21/21

to

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:53:49 +0100, NY wrote:

> "Dennis Lee Bieber" <wlf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:mn8gfg9ivl3ca3d12...@4ax.com...
>> If one needs accurate time on an R-Pi, either a network connection to
>> NTP servers, a battery-backed RTC module (though those do tend to lose
>> a bit of time and need to be resynced to another time source at
>> periods), or a GPS time source.
>
> My Pi's are connected to my LAN, so they get the benefit of NTP resyncs
> every so often. The problem comes when a Pi reboots and then can't see
> the LAN for a while - eg because everything has come back after a power
> cut and the router is taking ages to connect to the internet. In that
> case, the Pi can be running for a significant period of time with a
> slightly-wrong time.
>

Lots of good suggestions here: scroll down for suggestions that work with
systemd installed.

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/8231/how-to-force-ntpd-to-
update-date-time-after-boot

IIRC I have mine set up to run ntpd and referencing europe.pool.ntp.org,
oceania.pool.ntp.org and my house server, which is on a short runtime UPS
(long enough for a clean shutdown) and also runs ntpd, so regardless of
whether my external link is up, the RPi and assorted laptops should be
able to get a valid time at boottime.

If that's not enough, you can always attach a GPS receiver and/or a
receiver for one of the broadcast time signals to something on your LAN.
ntpd is capable of accepting time from any GPS receiver with NMEA output.
See docs in /usr/share/doc/ntp for more detail.

If you want to build a receiver for the 'Rugby' RF time service, look
here http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/radioclock.html
for parts list, instructions etc and the code needed to interface it to
ntpd. I used to run this and still have the hardware: must resurrect it
some time soon.

There's also some good stuff here: https://www.satsignal.eu/

David Taylor

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Jul 22, 2021, 2:00:42 AM7/22/21

to

On 21/07/2021 19:53, NY wrote:
> What is the accuracy of the clock on the Pi if it initially syncs with an
> NTP source but then loses network contact while remaining booted up? What is
> the default resync period for Raspberry PiOS - is it every 24 hours or is it
> more/less frequent that that? My old (Windows 7) laptop had a very poor RTC
> which lost a lot of time - several minutes over the default resync time of
> Windows - so I found the registry keys to make it resync more frequently -
> probably once per day. My new Windows 10 laptop never seems to be out by
> more than a few seconds, so either its RTC is more accurate or it resyncs
> more often.

I would recommend installing NTP which appears to be missing from the recent
RPi OS releases.

A decent RTC is here (plus GPS module) and I measured this as about 2ppm, so a
fraction of a second per day.

https://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_64&product_id=81

You can install NTP on Windows as well which can easily give sub-second
accuracy. I have some old notes here:

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

A. Dumas

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Jul 22, 2021, 4:32:19 AM7/22/21

to

David Taylor <david-...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/07/2021 19:53, NY wrote:
>> What is the accuracy of the clock on the Pi if it initially syncs with an
>> NTP source but then loses network contact while remaining booted up? What is
>> the default resync period for Raspberry PiOS - is it every 24 hours or is it
>> more/less frequent that that? My old (Windows 7) laptop had a very poor RTC
>> which lost a lot of time - several minutes over the default resync time of
>> Windows - so I found the registry keys to make it resync more frequently -
>> probably once per day. My new Windows 10 laptop never seems to be out by
>> more than a few seconds, so either its RTC is more accurate or it resyncs
>> more often.
>
> I would recommend installing NTP which appears to be missing from the recent
> RPi OS releases.

That's because of the switch to systemd. An ntp (-like?) service is still
installed. Its interface is "timedatectl" which gives a status overview.
See man timedatectl.

It seems to sync often enough by itself that my Pi4 (without an rtc) which
is always on and which I don't monitor is accurate to within about a second
compared manually to this iOS device from which I just logged in. So, I
don't think it's a good idea to install the ntp service on top of that; not
without first disabling this new stuff.

Bob Eager

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Jul 22, 2021, 4:48:40 AM7/22/21

to

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 07:00:40 +0100, David Taylor wrote:

> On 21/07/2021 19:53, NY wrote:
>> What is the accuracy of the clock on the Pi if it initially syncs with
>> an NTP source but then loses network contact while remaining booted up?
>> What is the default resync period for Raspberry PiOS - is it every 24
>> hours or is it more/less frequent that that? My old (Windows 7) laptop
>> had a very poor RTC which lost a lot of time - several minutes over the
>> default resync time of Windows - so I found the registry keys to make
>> it resync more frequently -
>> probably once per day. My new Windows 10 laptop never seems to be out
>> by more than a few seconds, so either its RTC is more accurate or it
>> resyncs more often.
>
> I would recommend installing NTP which appears to be missing from the
> recent RPi OS releases.

The whole point is that OP is doing that, but on boot, sync to get a
valid time is overtaken by other stuff starting (and getting the wrong
time).

Chris Elvidge

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Jul 22, 2021, 6:34:24 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 07:00 am, David Taylor wrote:
> I would recommend installing NTP which appears to be missing from the
> recent RPi OS releases.

Check timedatectl (a systemd service)

--
Chris Elvidge
England

John Aldridge

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Jul 22, 2021, 7:13:58 AM7/22/21

to

In article <sd8r45$ecj$1...@dont-email.me>, M...@nospam.net says...

>
> On 20/07/2021 19:51, NY wrote:
> > I wonder whether anyone has considered running studios a couple of seconds
> > early (so when they play the pips at 12:00:00 it's actually 11:59:58) and
> > delaying FM by the same amount that DAB is inherently delayed, to keep them
> > in sync;-)

Or even generate the pips in the DAB radio, rather than at the studio :)

> What is the point when both VHF FM and DAB have the time transmitted all
> the time and displayed on the radio. I would think both of these are
> quite accurate enough for most people most of the time.
>
> Anyone needing precision time is going to be using something else.

It would also be handy when you've got several radios in different rooms
of the house, all playing the same station.

But it's water under the bridge now, sadly. The decoding delay isn't
standardised, as someone else has alredy said.

John

Tweed

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Jul 22, 2021, 7:54:29 AM7/22/21

to

Write a script that runs early in the boot process and looks for a response
(ping?) from 8.8.8.8 - once a response is received allow the boot process
and subsequent time sync to proceed. So in effect it waits for the home
router to become ready.

Alternatively build your own NTP server using a cheap GPS board and another
Pi, or buy a battery backed clock board for the original Pi in question.

Martin Gregorie

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Jul 22, 2021, 8:56:31 AM7/22/21

to

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:34:22 +0100, Chris Elvidge wrote:

> On 22/07/2021 07:00 am, David Taylor wrote:
>> I would recommend installing NTP which appears to be missing from the
>> recent RPi OS releases.
>
> Check timedatectl (a systemd service)

It may not be installed if you've had your RPI for some time and have
done in-situ upgrades as successive Raspbian versions have been released.

I have an early Pi 2B (the 512MB version) successively upgraded from
Wheezy to Buster. It does not have the timedatectl service installed.

Chris Elvidge

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Jul 22, 2021, 9:38:14 AM7/22/21

to

systemd-timesyncd.service and/or systemd-timedated.service?

--
Chris Elvidge
England

David Taylor

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Jul 22, 2021, 9:48:53 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 09:32, A. Dumas wrote:
> That's because of the switch to systemd. An ntp (-like?) service is still
> installed. Its interface is "timedatectl" which gives a status overview.
> See man timedatectl.
>
> It seems to sync often enough by itself that my Pi4 (without an rtc) which
> is always on and which I don't monitor is accurate to within about a second
> compared manually to this iOS device from which I just logged in. So, I
> don't think it's a good idea to install the ntp service on top of that; not
> without first disabling this new stuff.

A "sudo apt-get install ntp" fixes the lack of NTP on all my RPi cards. No
problems at all even with the latest OS. Personally I prefer to trust the
reference NTP version rather than some other version, and it has the advantage
that I can manage it in the same way as NTP on Windows and other Linux systems.

Here I see accuracies well under a millisecond even when syncing over Wi-Fi -
e.g. a Raspberry Pi 400:

https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi24_ntp-b.html

and when you activate the GPS/PPS option, well under 10 microseconds even with
a Raspberry Pi 1B:

https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi1_ntp.html

Here's a Raspberry Pi 4 with the Uputronics GPS/PPS/RTC HAT:

https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi25_ntp.html

The antenna is a mag mount puck, indoors, on top of some mains trunking.
Something like that can be your stratum-1 source so many local clients.

I'm comparing file timestamps with another system in the Netherlands and having
sub-second accuracy makes the comparison much more certain. I appreciate that
your requirements may be less stringent, but you can have a lot of fun with NTP
and GPS!

David Taylor

unread,

Jul 22, 2021, 9:55:21 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 09:48, Bob Eager wrote:
> The whole point is that OP is doing that, but on boot, sync to get a
> valid time is overtaken by other stuff starting (and getting the wrong
> time).

Thanks, Bob. Perhaps simply delay the other stuff by 30 seconds or so might be
a simple solution?

Bob Eager

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Jul 22, 2021, 10:15:24 AM7/22/21

to

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:55:20 +0100, David Taylor wrote:

> On 22/07/2021 09:48, Bob Eager wrote:
>> The whole point is that OP is doing that, but on boot, sync to get a
>> valid time is overtaken by other stuff starting (and getting the wrong
>> time).
>
> Thanks, Bob. Perhaps simply delay the other stuff by 30 seconds or so
> might be a simple solution?

Indeed. I thought systemd was supposed to solve all that (hollow laugh,
glad I don't have to use it).

Adam Funk

unread,

Jul 22, 2021, 10:30:04 AM7/22/21

to

On 2021-07-22, David Taylor wrote:

> On 22/07/2021 09:32, A. Dumas wrote:
>> That's because of the switch to systemd. An ntp (-like?) service is still
>> installed. Its interface is "timedatectl" which gives a status overview.
>> See man timedatectl.
>>
>> It seems to sync often enough by itself that my Pi4 (without an rtc) which
>> is always on and which I don't monitor is accurate to within about a second
>> compared manually to this iOS device from which I just logged in. So, I
>> don't think it's a good idea to install the ntp service on top of that; not
>> without first disabling this new stuff.
>
> A "sudo apt-get install ntp" fixes the lack of NTP on all my RPi cards. No
> problems at all even with the latest OS. Personally I prefer to trust the
> reference NTP version rather than some other version, and it has the advantage
> that I can manage it in the same way as NTP on Windows and other Linux systems.

That's the thing. I haven't had any of the gloom and doom that a lot
of people predicted for the shift to systemd *except* that it can be
extremely confusing for me to figure out how to configure the small
number of things that I want to customize.

Trying to change the time in the morning that cron.daily (weekly,
monthly) runs was an absolute pig, and I found the documentation about
where to put the customization file tricky to follow.

> Here I see accuracies well under a millisecond even when syncing over Wi-Fi -
> e.g. a Raspberry Pi 400:
>
> https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi24_ntp-b.html
>
> and when you activate the GPS/PPS option, well under 10 microseconds even with
> a Raspberry Pi 1B:
>
> https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi1_ntp.html
>
> Here's a Raspberry Pi 4 with the Uputronics GPS/PPS/RTC HAT:
>
> https://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/raspi25_ntp.html
>
> The antenna is a mag mount puck, indoors, on top of some mains trunking.
> Something like that can be your stratum-1 source so many local clients.
>
> I'm comparing file timestamps with another system in the Netherlands and having
> sub-second accuracy makes the comparison much more certain. I appreciate that
> your requirements may be less stringent, but you can have a lot of fun with NTP
> and GPS!
>

--

A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys
itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste
and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss.
---Ignatius J Reilly

David Taylor

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Jul 22, 2021, 10:51:58 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 15:17, Adam Funk wrote:
> That's the thing. I haven't had any of the gloom and doom that a lot

> of people predicted for the shift to systemd*except* that it can be

> extremely confusing for me to figure out how to configure the small
> number of things that I want to customize.
>
> Trying to change the time in the morning that cron.daily (weekly,
> monthly) runs was an absolute pig, and I found the documentation about
> where to put the customization file tricky to follow.

There seem to be a number of people who are strongly against it, but it's not
been an issue here.

For scheduled stuff I simply use "crontab -e" (IIRC) and it seems to work, but
that's for boot-time and daily tasks. No customisation file required - as far
as I know.

David Taylor

unread,

Jul 22, 2021, 10:53:41 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 15:15, Bob Eager wrote:
> Indeed. I thought systemd was supposed to solve all that (hollow laugh,
> glad I don't have to use it).

Oh! "sleep" still works.

Chris Elvidge

unread,

Jul 22, 2021, 10:56:28 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 03:51 pm, David Taylor wrote:
>> Trying to change the time in the morning that cron.daily (weekly,
>> monthly) runs was an absolute pig, and I found the documentation about
>> where to put the customization file tricky to follow.

How is changing the time in /etc/crontab difficult?

--
Chris Elvidge
England

Adam Funk

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Jul 22, 2021, 11:15:04 AM7/22/21

to

On 2021-07-22, David Taylor wrote:

That doesn't change the time of day when the system-provided scripts
in /etc/cron.daily/ (etc.) are run.

--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks

Adam Funk

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Jul 22, 2021, 11:30:04 AM7/22/21

to

That's the easy way that used to work.

When anacron was moved to systemd, changing it involved attempting a
bunch of things (at one day intervals) and writing down what finally
worked for me:

1. copy /etc/systemd/system/anacron.timer to /etc/systemd/system

2. edit /etc/systemd/system/anacron.timer to change
"07..23:30" to "03..23:30"

3. delete the symlink from /etc/systemd/system/timers.target.wants/anacron.timer
to /lib/systemd/system/anacron.timer

4. replace that symlink with one to /etc/systemd/system/anacron.timer

--
I love you like sin, but I won't be your pigeon

The Natural Philosopher

unread,

Jul 22, 2021, 11:42:10 AM7/22/21

to

On 22/07/2021 15:17, Adam Funk wrote:

> That's the thing. I haven't had any of the gloom and doom that a lot

> of people predicted for the shift to systemd*except* that it can be

> extremely confusing for me to figure out how to configure the small
> number of things that I want to customize.
>
> Trying to change the time in the morning that cron.daily (weekly,
> monthly) runs was an absolute pig, and I found the documentation about
> where to put the customization file tricky to follow.
>
>

I have. NFS mounts that wouldn't mount on boot because the network
wasn't up. Yesterday a USB DVB-T dongle that didnt work on boot till I
unplugged it and replugged it...The cunt Poettering simply shrugs hois
shoulders and says 'its all in the name of faster server booting, and
you must modify your scripts accordingly. Who on gods own planet cares
how long a server takes to boot? How often do you take one down?

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

A. Dumas

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Jul 22, 2021, 2:58:07 PM7/22/21

to

Er, my "about a second" was from me simply glancing at two devices. I'm
sure the actual accuracy is the same as for reference ntp, because it runs
this: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-timesyncd

A. Dumas

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Jul 22, 2021, 2:58:12 PM7/22/21

to

Martin Gregorie

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Jul 22, 2021, 4:47:56 PM7/22/21

to

Both present: systemd-timesyncd.service enabled but dead
systemd-timedated.service enabled but dead

I remember installing ntpd when I first got the RPi - its still there,
still running and within a second or so of the T440 I'm writing this on.

A. Dumas

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Jul 22, 2021, 4:53:37 PM7/22/21

to

They may have been disabled when you installed ntpd, or never enabled when
ntpd was detected? That seems sane/logical, anyway. No need to have two
time sync daemons running simultaneously.

Martin Gregorie

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Jul 22, 2021, 5:24:52 PM7/22/21

to

Unlikely: ntpd was on the RPi and running long before systemd arrived on
it. Its far more likely that those services crawled onto the machine when
systemd first slung in through the door and, because I never needed to
use them they've just sat there - unless, of course:

- timesyncd bursts into life when the RPi is booted, does its thing and
dies when its all in sync

- timedated has simply never been started

A. Dumas

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Jul 22, 2021, 5:30:44 PM7/22/21

to

Martin Gregorie <mar...@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 20:53:36 +0000, A. Dumas wrote:
>> They may have been disabled when you installed ntpd, or never enabled
>> when ntpd was detected? That seems sane/logical, anyway. No need to have
>> two time sync daemons running simultaneously.
>
> Unlikely: ntpd was on the RPi and running long before systemd arrived on
> it. Its far more likely that those services crawled onto the machine when
> systemd first slung in through the door and, because I never needed to
> use them they've just sat there

That's what I meant by never enabled: you already had ntpd, then got
systemd, so maybe it knew: ntpd is running, this means we can't enable our
sntp version. That's how I'd like it to react, anyway.

David Taylor

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Jul 23, 2021, 2:23:28 AM7/23/21

to

On 22/07/2021 19:58, A. Dumas wrote:
> Er, my "about a second" was from me simply glancing at two devices. I'm
> sure the actual accuracy is the same as for reference ntp, because it runs
> this:https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-timesyncd

That's an awful way to use the NTP protocol! Using SNTP has many disadvantages
and I wouldn't touch it except as a very last resort.

I wrote a few notes about this, although referring to SNTP on Windows:

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html#why

Rink

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Aug 15, 2021, 7:34:42 PM8/15/21

to

Op 20-7-2021 om 20:51 schreef NY:
> "Rink" <rink.hof.ha...@planet.nl> wrote in message
> news:sd73u5$q4t$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Internet radio lags behind FM by a few seconds. Switching from FM on the
>>> last Pip of the time signal I catch the last couple of pips from the
>>> net.

>
> I wonder whether anyone has considered running studios a couple of
> seconds early (so when they play the pips at 12:00:00 it's actually
> 11:59:58) and delaying FM by the same amount that DAB is inherently
> delayed, to keep them in sync ;-)
>

> For a station that only plays recorded music and doesn't have any
> second-accurate timechecks, they don't even need to run the studio early.
>
> Or do different radios have different amounts of buffering of the
> received data before playing it as an analogue feed to the speaker?

I did not wrote the first sentence, it was
Op 14-3-2021 om 9:49 schreef Unsteadyken:

But Unsteadyken is right.
Today every "line" has it's own delay time.

Years ago there was an important football match at a warm day when
everybody had their doors open. And you could hear the delay times when
there was a goal...
First you hear the analogue viewers (ether and cable), they have hardly
a delay time.
Then you hear the analogue satellite viewers, they have a quarter to a
half second delay.
Then you hear the digital cable and ether viewers, they had a little
more delay.
And when all those have stopped yelling and took a beer, you hear the
internet TV viewers, they have a few seconds delay and that delay time
differs for each connection. It can even be 20 seconds or more.

Therefor it has no use to send the pips at the exact top of the hour.
If you listen to internet radio, it is probably 5 to 30 seconds later
when you hear the pips.

By the way, nowadays there are no analogue viewers anymore here. All
analogue TV has been switched off.

Rink