Psion 5 and WinCE version 2 rival
Jon Smallwood
I saw a Casio CE machine (pretty grim piece of hardware) at a Microsoft
seminar this week running a beta version of Win CE 2 due for release in
January 98.
Amongst other changes Pocket Word had spell checker and outlining added and
Pocket Excel supported multiple worksheets per file (very useful as most
companies now use multi-sheet files). It also is going to include a
PowerPoint viewer.
And it is flash-upgradeable!
I hate to say this but I suspect that Win CE 2 may be able to give the EPOC
32 and the series 5 a run for its money especially if the CE manufacturers
improve the design of their hardware.
Regards
Jon Smallwood
Rafael Humpert
I definitively do think so... just look at the number of companies
producing CE
machines - there'll be good ones pretty soon. No Asian company using
Epoc32.
And if Psion won't solve the Unicode problem & incompatibility between
wide and
narrow build (both are big issues for me), I'll desert as soon as the
alternatives are serious. (They are not yet)
Regards
Rafael Humpert
Ajai Khattri
|Amongst other changes Pocket Word had spell checker and outlining added
Big deal - had this for years on my 3a.
|Pocket Excel supported multiple worksheets per file (very useful as most
Hmmm... now show me a graph of your data please...?
Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
<images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
|I hate to say this but I suspect that Win CE 2 may be able to give the EPOC
|32 and the series 5 a run for its money especially if the CE manufacturers
|improve the design of their hardware.
All of the WinCE boxes (yes, they are all boxes) all look the same and
offer very little functionality for the money.
Can you print from CE now or is that still brain-damaged.
Regards,
--
Aj. (aj...@ibm.net)
Consultant Engineer, The Market Net Group
Tóth Attila
Hi!
We love our Psion (with all problems), but on the other hand...
Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
needed five years. Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
needed only few month to create improved machines. And they will be release new
versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
the whole world.
Do you really believe that only Psion can manufacture good keyboards?
Do you really believe that only Psion can produce spreadsheet with charts?
Maybe the Series 5 and EPOC32 is better than any WinCE machine at this time.
But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
good as Series 5.
regards
Attilas
Ron Mertens
Hey, Hi!
> We love our Psion (with all problems), but on the other hand...
BUT, I have to say some things :
> Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
> needed five years.
great, it really was okay until now (It's still great, but I guess we
must move to 32bit...).
> Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
> needed only few month to create improved machines.
ROMS. Beside, I wouldn't want my Palmtop to become old after a few
month... The fact that the series3 was there for many years is great! I
get tons of software, and many people are using that machine...
> And they will be release new
> versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
> the whole world.
It just points out that microsoft have been producing BAD products one
after the other. Look at windows, or any other software. There are
freeware operation systems that are better then windows... (!) Microsoft
are accustemed to having no competition, so they allow themself to make
mistakes, and correct them with huge marketing campaigns...
Beside. I'm not sure that people want Windows on their palmtop. I know I
don't want. Part of the reason I bought my 3c is because it's a 'toy'.
It's fun, and it gives me something to do when I'm bored. If I had
windows in it, it would lose its charm after 5 minutes...
But that's just me...
Ron Mertens
ro...@mertens.com | Home Page : http://www.way.com/~mertero
"I wouldn't turn the sound down yet
Don't even touch the dials, Not yet
'Cos there's things you've gotta hear here
There's things you've gotta believe of me"
-Tindersticks
timmy...@aol.com
Hi :)
I think it depends on whether wince manufacturers go the route of other
microsoft solutions.....ie, huge memory sapping programs and the
possibility of batteries strapped to your waist to power the new colour
screens etc.
Regards :)
In article <3448D046...@eth.ericsson.se>,
"Tóth Attila" <Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> We love our Psion (with all problems), but on the other hand...
>
> Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
> needed five years. Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
> needed only few month to create improved machines. And they will be release new
> versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
> the whole world.
>
> Do you really believe that only Psion can manufacture good keyboards?
> Do you really believe that only Psion can produce spreadsheet with charts?
>
> Maybe the Series 5 and EPOC32 is better than any WinCE machine at this time.
> But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
> good as Series 5.
>
> regards
> Attilas
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
jf mezei
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> |Amongst other changes Pocket Word had spell checker and outlining added
>
> Big deal - had this for years on my 3a.
Ah, but the Series 3 is out of the competition. WinCE is competing
against
the Series 5 which lacks many of these features. And until we see the
new software or get an official news release from PSION outlining what
will be added to the S5's new ROMs next year, you can only use the
current S5 as comparision.
> Hmmm... now show me a graph of your data please...?
Use a PC or a MAC to make graphs. Use the pocket computer for entering
information
and formulas for quick calculations. If you need graphs, transfer your
PDA's sheets in standard formats to your pC to have them imaged as
graphs.
The graphs on the Series 3 were especially lame as you couldn't do much
with them
(not even print). The Series 5 does have the ability to print the graphs
thought so it does make them useful, especially if you embed them in a
document. But I wonder how often this is *really* going to be *needed*
and how often this will be used to impress people and show off your new
toy (the S5).
> Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
> you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
No, but download a presentation and view it on the plane to prepare for
it so that when you arrive, you have memorised it and have written down
your notes etc.
Yeah, I must say that this is more hype than real need though. But hype
is what unfortunatly sells as the PDA market has downgraded itself to
such a low level.
> All of the WinCE boxes (yes, they are all boxes) all look the same and
> offer very little functionality for the money.
That is not what counts. What counts is how many units they sell. Once
they've released market share numbers, all developpers will switch their
development efforts to WinCE and this will give PSION a harder time to
expand its software base.
>
> Can you print from CE now or is that still brain-damaged.
The S5 is brain damaged as it cannot print to POSTSCRIPT devices. (The
S3 can).
So the definition of "brain dead" varies from owner to owner depending
on the real needs.
Jon Smallwood
Ajai Khattri wrote in message <345019d3...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
>On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:55:12 +0100, "Jon Smallwood"
><jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>|Amongst other changes Pocket Word had spell checker and outlining added
>
>Big deal - had this for years on my 3a.
but not on the Series 5...
>
>|Pocket Excel supported multiple worksheets per file (very useful as most
>
>Hmmm... now show me a graph of your data please...?
>Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
>you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
>
><images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
>
>|I hate to say this but I suspect that Win CE 2 may be able to give the
EPOC
>|32 and the series 5 a run for its money especially if the CE manufacturers
>|improve the design of their hardware.
>
>All of the WinCE boxes (yes, they are all boxes) all look the same and
>offer very little functionality for the money.
>
>Can you print from CE now or is that still brain-damaged.
>
Whereas printing on the Series 5 is totally reliable and bug-free!!?
>Regards,
>--
>Aj. (aj...@ibm.net)
>Consultant Engineer, The Market Net Group
It seems that both machines are being marketed as both organisers and PC
companions. A PowerPoint viewer would be useful in the same way that
multi-sheet workbooks would be: viewing work-documents or e-mail on the
move. No one is suggesting that one would use the machine to give a
presentation.
All I am saying is that CE 1 presents little serious competition to the
Series 5, but CE 2 looks more of a rival. Given the speed at which Microsoft
move (and Psion's sluggishness) it makes me concerned for the future of the
Series 5. Unless of course, Psion are quicker on their feet than normal.
William Ofosu-Amaah
aj...@ibm.net (Ajai Khattri) wrote:
>Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
>you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
>
><images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
WinCE 2.0 supports PCMCIA VGA Cards so you can hook it up to an
external monitor and have the execs huddle around the monitor
instead :-)
William
Alasdair Manson
>So the definition of "brain dead" varies from owner to owner depending
>on the real needs.
So why is it hard to understand that, while the Series 5 is
inappropriate for your needs, it is perfectly appropriate for the
needs of many many other users ?
best regards
Alasdair Manson
A Psion Software employee in a personal capacity
Ajai Khattri
|Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS
Because initially it was a lousy OS and it still is! ;-)
Bill Gates wrote a so-called visionary book (The Road Ahead) and after
a year it need revisions - I love the irony in this ;-)
|,PSION
|needed five years. Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
|needed only few month to create improved machines.
Exactly, BIG um hardware manufacturer can um spend BIG money on um big
new shiny machine go brrm brrm ;-)
| I don't think that Psion can compete with
|the whole world.
They seemed to be doing fine for the past 12 years...
|Do you really believe that only Psion can manufacture good keyboards?
|Do you really believe that only Psion can produce spreadsheet with charts?
So tell us why non of the WinCE machines have done it yet? And why
haven't they go a machine > 4Mb yet?
|Maybe the Series 5 and EPOC32 is better than any WinCE machine at this time.
|But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
|good as Series 5.
OTOH, Psion will have moved on to better things by then...
Regards,
--
Aj. (aj...@ibm.net)
Engineering Consultant, The Market Net Group
timmy...@aol.com
I would enjoy seeing some budding presenter walking through the streets
of London with his palmtop in his pocket, a monitor under his arm and a
huge bulge somewhere on his anatomy hiding the powerpack for the power
drain to come.
I would suspect that purchasing a laptop with win95 on it would be mush
more efficient.....or maybe microsoft are misguided into thinking that
palmtop customers really want a laptop in disguise.....if they did, the
Libretto is the way to go, no Wince - ing hangups with it OS.
Regards :)
In article <3449a612...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
jf mezei
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> | I don't think that Psion can compete with
> |the whole world.
>
> They seemed to be doing fine for the past 12 years...
Because they had a clearly vastly superior product and no competition so
apt at hyping their inferior products to make them appear like a "must
have". Times have changed and hype drives the market and companies must
go the hype route or die, even if it means inferior products. Thanks
Bill Gates.
Steve Waddicor
>Hi!
>
>We love our Psion (with all problems), but on the other hand...
>
>Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
>needed five years. Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
>needed only few month to create improved machines. And they will be release new
>versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
>the whole world.
>
>Do you really believe that only Psion can manufacture good keyboards?
>Do you really believe that only Psion can produce spreadsheet with charts?
>
>Maybe the Series 5 and EPOC32 is better than any WinCE machine at this time.
>But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
>good as Series 5.
>
>regards
> Attilas
>
>
--
steve.w...@virgin.net.blah
Non-spammers drop .blah from address to reply
Steve Waddicor
>Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
>needed five years.
The beta version of Win95 had links to a PDA they were developing
then. WinPad I think it was called. It had a stylus, but no
keyboard. That was 2 1/2 years ago, so they've certainly been working
on a PDA more than a year.
>Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
>needed only few month to create improved machines.
Does anyone know how long it took GeoFox to develop their
implementation of an EPOC machine? Ali, can you reveal this? BTW,
I'm not saying that GeoFox is an improvement on the S5, rather a
different implementation for a different market.
>And they will be release new
>versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
>the whole world.
Personally I don't tend to jump in when I think there's a better
version just around the corner. That's probably why I still have a
486 PC.
>But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
>good as Series 5.
No, they'll still be running a variant of Windows.
Cheers,
Steve
Ajai Khattri
|Ah, but the Series 3 is out of the competition. WinCE is competing
|against
|the Series 5 which lacks many of these features. And until we see the
|new software or get an official news release from PSION outlining what
|will be added to the S5's new ROMs next year, you can only use the
|current S5 as comparision.
The S5 *has* had a spell-checker since day 1.
|Use a PC or a MAC to make graphs. Use the pocket computer for entering
|information
|and formulas for quick calculations. If you need graphs, transfer your
|PDA's sheets in standard formats to your pC to have them imaged as
|graphs.
In other words you need a PC to really take advantage of a WinCE
machine! You don't for an S5. That is the fundamental difference.
|(not even print). The Series 5 does have the ability to print the graphs
|thought so it does make them useful, especially if you embed them in a
|document. But I wonder how often this is *really* going to be *needed*
|and how often this will be used to impress people and show off your new
|toy (the S5).
So you're saying that noone uses the graph much and those that do are
simply 'showing off'? I think I beg to differ - for some people, the
Psion is the *only* computer they have and so they will use it as
their main computer. The S5 is not a PC parasite like WinCE is. I
don't even have a PC at home!
|Once
|they've released market share numbers, all developpers will switch their
|development efforts to WinCE and this will give PSION a harder time to
|expand its software base.
All? You seem so sure of your numbers that you can speak on behalf of
all developers world-wide? Hmmm....
|The S5 is brain damaged as it cannot print to POSTSCRIPT devices. (The
|S3 can).
|So the definition of "brain dead" varies from owner to owner depending
|on the real needs.
In comparison, most of the current WinCE devices can't print to *any*
printer so the situation is worse on those than the S5 (The HP320LX
prints to HP printers). Since the average person does not even *have*
a Postscript printer I doubt if not having a driver really matters
greatly.
William Ofosu-Amaah
aj...@ibm.net (Ajai Khattri) wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 06:19:04 GMT, wo...@worldnet.att.REMOVETHIS.net
>(William Ofosu-Amaah) wrote:
>
>|WinCE 2.0 supports PCMCIA VGA Cards so you can hook it up to an
>|external monitor and have the execs huddle around the monitor
>|instead :-)
>
>Hehehe ;-)
>
>This would be a great way to keep presentations short because after
>about 20mins your batteries will die ;-)
Maybe that is all the time MS thinks people need :-)
OTOH, you could always plug the palmtop in using an AC Adaptor.
Where there is a monitor, there has got to be AC!
William
Emmanuel Baechler
> [...] People do not care about operating system. They know the brand
> names like Sharp, Compaq, Casio, Philips, NEC, etc., therefore they will
> buy these machines.
Oh yes, they care about the brand names that their colleagues recommend.
They
look at the satisfaction of people around them before buying. As Psion
has an
history of quality and mature software, this is a very strong selling
argument.
I see people as conservative as doctors buyings SOME brands of handheld,
i.e.
Psions, Pilots and Newtons. While many of them are still very reluctant
at
using a PC, they are much more enthusiatic at using one of these
handhelds. On
the other hand, there's no CE machines in the hospital where I work. I
suspect
that as long as MS does not care about software quality and as long as
they
do not care about the specificity of handheld use, CE machines will
remain a
small minority at least among professionnals.
As handhelds are PERSONAL tools, there's no constraints on the use of a
so
called "standard" machine. To the contrary, this is a domain where
people are
likely to make much more individualistic purchases. That's also where
the
reputation of quality of Psion will matter.
> 2. I doubt that either Psion or Geofox can compete with Sharp, Philips, HP.
Oh yes, they can, and they do exactly what's needed to do it. As long as
they
will capitalize on their reputation of quality, on the high degree of
confidence
of their client they'll keep their market.
Poor, bug ridden software is even less desirable on a handheld than on a
PC. A
professionnal (doctor, enginneer, and so on) wants to be able to open a
WORKING
machine, without any trouble, day after day. Getting the latest software
as soon
as possible is definitely secondary. MS has the policy to release
software while
it is still in alpha condition in order to be on the market before the
competition
(CE 1.0 is an excellent example). But this is exactly the style of
behavior that
should be avoided to attract sales among professionals.
> This variant of windows has (almost) all the features people need.
Not at all. It lacks an ergonomy specifically desinged around handheld
use, CE is just a stripped down version of Win95. It does also
fundamentally
lack QUALITY (i.e. stable, debugged and robust) software.
Emmanuel Baechler
Service des Hospices Cantonaux
Office Informatique
Bugnon 21
1015 Lausanne
Switzerland
--- Standard disclaimer ----
Verner Hanna (Jnr)
If Psion is to become so proprietry as stated by Attila, then why has
Philips licenced the EPOC operating system after already producing a Win
CE Machine?
Possibly they realise that Win CE is CRAP!
Verner
--
tHe LiTtLe YeLlOw DaFfOdIl @}-,-'--
Tóth Attila
If you read carefully the announcement of Philips they will produce
telephones not handhelds using EPOC32. But Philips announced new Velo with
WinCE 2.
WinCE is the mainstream of handheld operating systems like it or not.
regards
Attilas
Rafael Humpert
Jon Smallwood wrote:
> Ajai Khattri wrote in message <345019d3...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> >On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:55:12 +0100, "Jon Smallwood"
> ><jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >|Amongst other changes Pocket Word had spell checker and outlining added
> >
> >Big deal - had this for years on my 3a.
> but not on the Series 5...
> >
> >|Pocket Excel supported multiple worksheets per file (very useful as most
> >
> >Hmmm... now show me a graph of your data please...?
> >Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
> >you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
> >
> ><images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
> >
> >|I hate to say this but I suspect that Win CE 2 may be able to give the
> EPOC
> >|32 and the series 5 a run for its money especially if the CE manufacturers
> >|improve the design of their hardware.
> >
> >All of the WinCE boxes (yes, they are all boxes) all look the same and
> >offer very little functionality for the money.
> >
> >Can you print from CE now or is that still brain-damaged.
> >
> Whereas printing on the Series 5 is totally reliable and bug-free!!?
> >Regards,
> >--
> >Aj. (aj...@ibm.net)
> >Consultant Engineer, The Market Net Group
>
> It seems that both machines are being marketed as both organisers and PC
> companions. A PowerPoint viewer would be useful in the same way that
> multi-sheet workbooks would be: viewing work-documents or e-mail on the
> move. No one is suggesting that one would use the machine to give a
> presentation.
>
> All I am saying is that CE 1 presents little serious competition to the
> Series 5, but CE 2 looks more of a rival. Given the speed at which Microsoft
> move (and Psion's sluggishness) it makes me concerned for the future of the
> Series 5. Unless of course, Psion are quicker on their feet than normal.
I do feel the same. What's both companies plans for the future? WinCE will be
"everywhere" (thanks to modular concept), but Epoc32 seems to be restricted to
phones and PDA-likes. Also, Psion separates Unicode and non-Unicode - and with
this the software market. No smart move, can it be amended? If I'm not mistaken,
development cost on CE machines is lower than for Epoc32 (just think of their
hefty EpocWorld subscription fee).
Regards,
Rafael Humpert
Tóth Attila
You mentioned quality many times regarding Psion, but If I read this NG I don't
think that Psion can create quality hardware and software. Do you mean Series 3?
But how can you compare the Series 3 with a Sharp Mobilon with color screen and
digital camera? You can say you don't need color screen, but the average user
will need it, I think.
You are right most people are conservative, they like very much reusing their
knowledge. That's why they will choose Windows like devices.
regards
Attila
Alasdair Manson
>People do not care about operating system.
I agree to an extent (in the same way that people don't really care
what OS their FAX machine or router is running). However, just as
there are good and bad FAX machines, there are good and bad operating
system implementations and this is what counts: applications and
solutions.
>They know the brand names like Sharp, Compaq, Casio, Philips, NEC, etc., therefore they will
>buy these machines.
So how do account for the very poor sales of WinCE devices from all of
these big brand names ? It can't just be brand - people want
applications and solutions.
>The WinCE will be soon "standard", and Psion's EPOC32 will become (like it or not)
>proprietary, just because much more manufacturer are using and will be using WinCE.
Sigh - do you have a dictionary ? At the risk of repeating myself,
EPOC32 is not proprietary because it is available to licensees.
Period. Like it or not.
>At least five big manufacturer announced new machines when Microsoft released WinCE
>2. I doubt that either Psion or Geofox can compete with Sharp, Philips, HP.
And look how poor the sales were from industry giants like Compaq -
people won't buy a poor handheld from Compaq just because it's made by
Compaq.
Just out of interested, Philips PC is a licensee of EPOC32 so Psion
(Software) isn't competing with Philips - it is partnering with
Philips. You can read about it at:
http://www.software.psion.com/latest/news/press/pr970910.html
>BTW I'm a Siena user, and satisfied with it. But if I need to upgrade I will not
>choose Psion just because of the name.
Exactly ! You'll choose a product which meets your requirements (i.e.
solves problems for you). If this is your approach, why do you believe
that other customers will ignore utility and buy purely because of a
brand name - what makes you so different ? You've defeated your own
argument !
Psion has been written off many times - the Apple Newton was to be
Psion's downfall, then the Magic Cap devices (HaHa), then the OmniGo
(HaHa again) and yet it is still there selling more handhelds than
just about anybody. Microsoft and Windows CE is a big, real threat but
Psion is partnering with other companies and working on solutions to
maintain its edge.
Alasdair Manson
>If I'm not mistaken,
>development cost on CE machines is lower than for Epoc32 (just think of their
>hefty EpocWorld subscription fee).
$300 - hefty ? In relative terms perhaps. However, I would have
thought that any professional/serious developer would not object to
paying $300 (it's only <$6 a week) to ensure that he or she has the
latest information.
I managed to establish that the CE development kit is $199. This price
does not include updates or any support. As such, you could buy a year
of the *least expensive* MSDN for $199 which brings the cost up to
$400 and you still don't have any support !
Makes EPOCWorld fee look a lot less "hefty".
>WinCE will be "everywhere" (thanks to modular concept), but Epoc32 seems to be restricted to
>phones and PDA-likes.
But EPOC32 is designed in a modular fashion so why won't EPOC32 be
""everywhere" (thanks to modular concept)" ? EPOC32 is appropriate for
many different ROM-based mobile computing devices.
If modularity guarantees ubiquity, EPOC32 will be as "everywhere" as
Windows CE by your own analysis !
Ajai Khattri
|WinCE 2.0 supports PCMCIA VGA Cards so you can hook it up to an
|external monitor and have the execs huddle around the monitor
|instead :-)
Hehehe ;-)
This would be a great way to keep presentations short because after
about 20mins your batteries will die ;-)
Cheers,
Tóth Attila
Handheld computers will be soon such common consumer things like mobile phones. Till
this time there are only few true handheld computer on the market, but if you enter
to a big department store next year you will find dozens of handhelds among
televisions and HI-FI equipment. People do not care about operating system. They know
the brand names like Sharp, Compaq, Casio, Philips, NEC, etc., therefore they will
buy these machines.
proprietary, just because much more manufacturer are using and will be using WinCE.
> >Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
> >needed five years.
>
> The beta version of Win95 had links to a PDA they were developing
> then. WinPad I think it was called. It had a stylus, but no
> keyboard. That was 2 1/2 years ago, so they've certainly been working
> on a PDA more than a year.
I mean from WinCE 1.0 to 2.0.
> >Big hardware manufacturer (like HP, Sharp, Philips, etc.)
> >needed only few month to create improved machines.
>
> Does anyone know how long it took GeoFox to develop their
> implementation of an EPOC machine? Ali, can you reveal this? BTW,
> I'm not saying that GeoFox is an improvement on the S5, rather a
> different implementation for a different market.
At least five big manufacturer announced new machines when Microsoft released WinCE
2. I doubt that either Psion or Geofox can compete with Sharp, Philips, HP.
> >And they will be release new
> >versions year by year, month by month. I don't think that Psion can compete with
> >the whole world.
>
> Personally I don't tend to jump in when I think there's a better
> version just around the corner. That's probably why I still have a
> 486 PC.
If you want to use new software (just because of the compatibility) you need more and
more power. I don't suppose you are satisfied using a 486 PC with Win95 and Office97.
If you don't need to upgrade your hardware you are a lucky man.
> >But, I'm sorry to say, in one or two years WinCe machines will be at least as
> >good as Series 5.
>
> No, they'll still be running a variant of Windows.
This variant of windows has (almost) all the features people need. EPOC32 or any
other operating system is not definitely better than any kind of Windows. It is a
prejudice. Try it, and than you can say it fills your needs or not.
BTW I'm a Siena user, and satisfied with it. But if I need to upgrade I will not
choose Psion just because of the name.
regards
Attilas
William Ofosu-Amaah
timmy...@aol.com wrote:
>I would enjoy seeing some budding presenter walking through the streets
>of London with his palmtop in his pocket, a monitor under his arm and a
>huge bulge somewhere on his anatomy hiding the powerpack for the power
>drain to come.
You would hope the place the budding presenter is going has a monitor
floating around somewhere!
>
>I would suspect that purchasing a laptop with win95 on it would be mush
>more efficient.....or maybe microsoft are misguided into thinking that
>palmtop customers really want a laptop in disguise.....
At first I thought: "Why would anyone need a Powerpoint viewer on a
handheld???" After further consideration it could be a great tool
for sales groups or others who have a standard company Powerpoint
Presentation which they use a lot. With the WinCE machine, you
don't need to carry a notebook to do this. All you need is
the palmtop + PCMCIA VGA Card.
>if they did, the
>Libretto is the way to go, no Wince - ing hangups with it OS.
If you have $2,000 to get a new US model.
William
Tóth Attila
> Exactly, BIG um hardware manufacturer can um spend BIG money on um big
> new shiny machine go brrm brrm ;-)
Hahaha... But it's only a joke.
> They seemed to be doing fine for the past 12 years...
The handheld market just opened. Psion sold about one million Series 3. This year
people will by 600.000 handheld computers in according to the most pessimistic
forecasts.
> So tell us why non of the WinCE machines have done it yet? And why
> haven't they go a machine > 4Mb yet?
Have you used Siena (the ultimate organizer!) keyboard made by Psion?
> OTOH, Psion will have moved on to better things by then...
I doubt that Psion has enough resource to keep up with WinCE world. But we will see
it...
regards
Attilas
Alasdair Manson
>But how can you compare the Series 3 with a Sharp Mobilon with color screen and
>digital camera?
You are making the common mistake of confusing quality with features.
They are two completely different things.
Alasdair Manson
>If you read carefully the announcement of Philips they will produce
>telephones not handhelds using EPOC32.
I think that you need to reread the announcement ! Philips are not
making "telephones". They are "data and messaging companions".
>WinCE is the mainstream of handheld operating systems like it or not.
I don't think that an OS which, between 5 or 6 large names in the
computer industry, has shipped a few hundred thousand units could
reasonably be called mainstream !
There is no denying that Windows CE is gaining momentum and is a major
force but it's not the holy grail which MS have lead you to believe it
is.
Andrew Porter
I have a PC at home that is incredibly fast, has enormous amounts of memory
and tons of disk space. Yet Windows 95 still runs no faster that Windows 3.1
did on my first PC 5 years ago. I vageuly remember a quote from an executive
from Intel that went something like - no matter how fast our next processor
is,you can be sure thatMicrosoft will bring out an application that will bring
it to its knees within 6 months.
Windows is bloatware, terribly inefficient and slow. Compare it with
X-Windows on an humbly equipped PC and you will ask yourself what the hell
does windows do to make it so slow.
Is a Palmtop based on Windows going to satisfy users, be user friendly and
come with a built in programming language ? I dont think so. The whole
nature of a palmtop requires a tight efficient OS and Windows was never this
and will probably never will be.
Microsoft and Intel together make a perpetual revenue machine, they dont know
how to write fast programs - they dont need to. Do any of the applications we
use today really need such high specification machines ?
Only the sheep led by brand names will be tempted by Windows CE machines.
Some brand names make quality products, Microsoft have never been about
quality, only quantity.
Psion on the other hand have always been a top quality company, innovative,
stylish and always approachable. I am on my fourth Psion now and I know it
wont be my last.
--
Andrew Porter
The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom.
Ajai Khattri
|> All I am saying is that CE 1 presents little serious competition to the
|> Series 5, but CE 2 looks more of a rival. Given the speed at which Microsoft
|> move (and Psion's sluggishness)
Speed? It took almost a year for 2.0 to appear - are you willing to
give Psion the benefit of the doubt?
| I do feel the same. What's both companies plans for the future? WinCE will be
|"everywhere" (thanks to modular concept), but Epoc32 seems to be restricted to
|phones and PDA-likes.
See the GeoFox machine for another EPOC32 machine that is bigger than
an S5. Im sure Psion are already working on the next machine...
Regards,
Ajai Khattri
|The handheld market just opened. Psion sold about one million Series 3. This year
|people will by 600.000 handheld computers in according to the most pessimistic
|forecasts.
Psion have sold close to 2,000,000 units world-wide.
|I doubt that Psion has enough resource to keep up with WinCE world. But we will see
|it...
I think so ... but then Im not at liberty to say anything that might
be seen as breaking my NDA ;-)
Ajai Khattri
|Yet Windows 95 still runs no faster that Windows 3.1
|did on my first PC 5 years ago.
Though printing in the background helps ;-)
Also remember, a more advanced OS requires more memory and disk space
- you don't get anything for free! ;-)
Cheers,
James E. Lee
Alasdair Manson (ali-m...@psion.com) wrote:
> just about anybody. Microsoft and Windows CE is a big, real threat but
> Psion is partnering with other companies and working on solutions to
> maintain its edge.
Out of curiosity, can you speak at all on the apparent lack of visibility
of Psion in advertising in the U.S.?
I would think that Psion would want to be in all the trade magazines, and
I have so far only seen it in reviews. By contrast, I've seen Pilots and
WinCE devices in the 'warehouse' magazines (I can't remember the names,
but you know, the free periodic ones with the picuture of the operator on
front who is "waiting to take your order"?)
I'd think Psion would want to be putting out great TV commercials (I've
had a number ideas for them myself, even) before Microsoft wakes up and
starts doing so. I think there are a lot of great advantages that could
be had by doing this early, especially if Psion could become the vendor
that makes people _on a large scale_, (not just "professionals")
_aware_ of how useful a palmtop computer can really be.
I think Psion has a great product, but I think we have all see examples
of how important marketing is as well. I'd love to have a bit of insight
as to Psion isn't doing more high-visibility marketing in the U.S. It's
sad, because the S5 would probably almost sell itself (but not entirely!)
if people were more aware of how powerful palmtops are now, and how
truly useful they can be.
james
_________________________________________________
James E. Lee je...@ucdavis.edu
jf mezei
Verner Hanna (Jnr) wrote:
>
> If Psion is to become so proprietry as stated by Attila, then why has
> Philips licenced the EPOC operating system after already producing a Win
> CE Machine?
Because I am sure that those who pay the big bucks for a license to use
EPOC32 as part of their own stuff (OEM) have access to all the docs they
want. And this is perhaps why PSION won't reveal file formats etc to the
general public since it would remove value to the deal made with the
Phillips and Geofox of the world.
(If you paid $$$$ for the licence and then find out that most of the
info is public domain, how would you feel ?)
Tóth Attila
> So tell us why non of the WinCE machines have done it yet? And why
> haven't they go a machine > 4Mb yet?
Be realistic, please. Let's see Psion. Do you think Psion can not produce
non-fading keyboard from the start of the production of the Series5? Of course they
can as they do it now. They produce fading keyboard because they thought this
solution will good enough and it has low cost.If H/PC manufacturers experince that
people need touch-type keyboard they will produce it, I'm sure.
BTW Philips's Velo1 has 8 MB model...
regards
Attilas
Alasdair Manson
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:46:49 -0500, jf mezei
<"[non-spam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> wrote:
>In this age of hype, it isn't the true "hard" numbers that count, it is
>how well a company can spin those numbers and how much "positive growth"
>is shown.
>
>And if people get the *IMPRESSION* that WINce is winning the numbers
>game, that WINce will eventually win. And if PSION is unfortunate enough
>to get some news that its market share is going down, then it will be
>really bad news for PSION.
>
>The licencing of EPOC32 won't help the hype game much unless PSION is
>able to provide complete numbers of the number of EPOC32 units sold,
>even if it includes sewing machines, photocopiers, handheld phones and
>PDAs. So, if PSION releases only its own numbers and does not combine
>with those of say GEOfox, then PSION's market share won'T appear as big
>as it might really be.
Perhaps. I think we probably agree on this point.
jf mezei
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> Also remember, a more advanced OS requires more memory and disk space
> - you don't get anything for free! ;-)
EPOC is/was more advanced than DOS by a wide margin. And it didn't
need much RAM or disk to run on. Can't judge EPOC32 since I have little
info on it but it is surely more advanced than DOS/WINDOWS 3.1 and
probably WIN95 as well.
VMS and UNIX require less memory than NT, yet, especially for VMS, offer
much more powerful features. This is because they were developped in
days where resources were expensive/scarce and they matured at that
time. So, VMS included (and pioneered) clustering back in the early 80s
and systems like NT are only now beginning to bloat themselves with
features that were implemented on VMS back in the early 80s when memory
was scarce.
Remember that what is "new" to the PC world (ethernet, TCP/IP,
clustering) is very old news to the UNIX and VMS worlds.
So, your sentence should have been seen as: "Newborn operating systems
tend to consume more computing resources because the builder wanted to
save on programming resources. As a result, millions suffer from
decreased performance and increased hardware needs in order to save a
few jobs by the use of more time-efficient programming tools.
EPOC provides/provided a file server which gave it extremely powerful
networking capabilities close to that of DECNET allowing , for instance,
an S3a to delete and rename files on a MAC (and vice-versa).
DOS/WINDOWS 3.1 has nothing like that although the MAC has had that for
a long time too.
MVS mainframes were able to support hundreds of users on 8mb of RAM back
in the early 80s.
In the early days, builders *HAD* to rely on qualified and experienced
programmers to code in assembler and fit all the complex logic in as
little ra, as possible. But now, companies use "young keen programmers"
using simple tools to code operating systems because the emphasis is
more on delivery at least cost/time compared to more efficient code.
Alasdair Manson
On 22 Oct 1997 03:08:14 GMT, je...@atlas.ucdavis.edu (James E. Lee)
wrote:
>Out of curiosity, can you speak at all on the apparent lack of visibility
>of Psion in advertising in the U.S.?
I can't speak for Psion Inc. but I'm happy to give you my opinion. I
see little point in advertising the Series 5 in the US right now as
demand continues to outstrip supply and Psion Inc. is selling all the
Series 5s it can gets it's hands on right now. Advertising might fuel
interest in the product but that would exacerbate any customer
frustration at lack of products in the channels at this time.
jf mezei
Alasdair Manson wrote:
> There is no denying that Windows CE is gaining momentum and is a major
> force but it's not the holy grail which MS have lead you to believe it
> is.
In this age of hype, it isn't the true "hard" numbers that count, it is
jf mezei
James E. Lee wrote:
> I would think that Psion would want to be in all the trade magazines, and
> I have so far only seen it in reviews. By contrast, I've seen Pilots and
> WinCE devices in the 'warehouse' magazines (I can't remember the names,
> but you know, the free periodic ones with the picuture of the operator on
> front who is "waiting to take your order"?)
I agree. Perhaps PSION's current distribution deals in the USA make it
nearly impossible to sell at reduced prices through the ***wharehouse
mail order places. It is to PSION's detriment because it will miss out
on the marketing hype for those palmtops. Those "catalogs" are really
mass-marketing advertising medium. The cost to PSION is letting those
***wharehouse places have the units at a very reduced price in exhance
for a picture in their catalogs.
> I think Psion has a great product, but I think we have all see examples
> of how important marketing is as well. I'd love to have a bit of insight
> as to Psion isn't doing more high-visibility marketing in the U.S. It's
> sad, because the S5 would probably almost sell itself (but not entirely!)
> if people were more aware of how powerful palmtops are now, and how
> truly useful they can be.
Take a look at DIgital in the mid 80s and at Digital now, struggling to
exist and fending off constant rumours of takeovers. They had better
quality products, proprietary stuff, higher prices and null marketing
saavy. They used to be leaders in the computing industry, and even
though they still have the fastest processor in the world (ALPHA), thety
are considered an "also ran".
Keld Laursen
Alasdair Manson wrote in message <3450ee96...@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
>On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:04:23 +0200, "Tóth Attila"
><Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote:
[snip]
>>WinCE is the mainstream of handheld operating systems like it or not.
>
>I don't think that an OS which, between 5 or 6 large names in the
>computer industry, has shipped a few hundred thousand units could
>reasonably be called mainstream !
>
>force but it's not the holy grail which MS have lead you to believe it
>is.
Any company (or person) with a good enough PR department can make you
believe (and follow) anything. Just look at Hitler.
I'm not afraid. I'm VERY afraid. Afraid that MS has just this kind of PR
hold of
the world, so that anything mr. Gates says will be as coming from a minor
deity.
This might be the threat from Win CE.
Regards,
Keld Laursen
Tóth Attila
> Windows is bloatware, terribly inefficient and slow. Compare it with
> X-Windows on an humbly equipped PC and you will ask yourself what the hell
> does windows do to make it so slow.
Windows (from Micsosoft) and X-Windows system is completely different things. If
you talk about Windows and Linux (or MacOS, or any other desktop operating system)
maybe you are right.
regards
lyndsay Williams
Dear Alastair,
You said on 21/10/97
snippped some comments
<<
So how do account for the very poor sales of WinCE devices from all of
these big brand names ? It can't just be brand - people want
applications and solutions.
>>
snip
<<
Psion has been written off many times - the Apple Newton was to be
Psion's downfall, then the Magic Cap devices (HaHa), then the OmniGo
(HaHa again) and yet it is still there selling more handhelds than
just about anybody. Microsoft and Windows CE is a big, real threat but
Psion is partnering with other companies and working on solutions to
maintain its edge.
>>
snip
The news on 14/10/97;
420,000 Windows CE 1.0 devices have been sold this year, according to
International Data Corp., in Framingham, Mass.
In 1996 Psion manufactured 430,000 computers.
Although different years are compared, (96 for Psion and 97 for Windows
CE) , I don't follow your remarks of "poor sales for Wince" and Psion "
selling more handhelds than just about anybody"?
Please explain.
Lyndsay Williams
Rafael Humpert
I hope there'll be a handheld, no matter what company or OS, that really =
suits my
needs (stable, fast, Unicode, keyboard) soon. My Series 5 is a compromise=
=2E
T=F3th Attila wrote:
> > It has very little to do with that - they chose EPOC32 for this devic=
e
> > because it was technically (and, one assumes, commercially) superior
> > to Windows CE.
>
> Place your hand to your heart, why Philips (COMPAQ, Casio, NEC, Hitachi=
,
> Sharp, LG, last but not least Ericsson) doesn't choose EPOC32 for handh=
elds?
>
> Maybe you are right, EPOC is technically excellent, but do you think
> (honestly) that all these companies fail? Will they change to EPOC late=
r?
>
> Well, if the market grows fast enough there will be place for both EPOC=
32 and
> WinCE. I hope so.
>
> regards
> Attilas
Alasdair Manson
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:19:28 +0000, lyndsay Williams
<lyn...@lyndsayw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Please explain.
Of course.
The point which I was making is that Tóth Attila said that people will
buy this technology simply because of brand name support from
companies like Compaq, Casio, Philips, NEC, HP, etc.
I countered, suggesting that sales of Windows CE devices between these
companies are very poor *in relative terms* given their might in the
industry. Psion is a relatively small company compared to these giants
and it sold *more computers than all of them put together*. So, in
summary, the actual unit sales are in the same ballpark but Psion's
sales are considerably more impressive given the competition, hence my
comment.
When you consider the fact that Psion Software has successfully
licensed to 3 companies who have announced products, the potential of
EPOC32 is encouraging.
Also, and I'll make it clear that this is complete supposition on my
part, anecdotal evidence suggests that the return rate on Windows CE
devices (presumably because of so-called "buyer remorse") has been
very high indeed.
Finally, your figure of 420,000 was from IDC who are well-respected
analysts. I've heard figures for total Windows CE sales from 600,000
down to less than 200,000 so it depends on who you believe. Most
computer companies will not provide figures for units shipped. Two
notable exceptions to that rule are Psion and Palm (with their Pilot)
- spot the connection :-)
Jeremy Rickard
In article <62k7a4$s95$1...@news.uni-c.dk>, Keld Laursen <k...@mse-dk.com>
writes
>I'm not afraid. I'm VERY afraid. Afraid that MS has just this kind of PR
>hold of
>the world, so that anything mr. Gates says will be as coming from a minor
>deity.
>This might be the threat from Win CE.
Me too. And not just palmtops. Look how people are starting to flock
to to SQL Server, just because it's Microsoft :-(
--
Jeremy Rickard
James E. Lee
Ajai Khattri (aj...@ibm.net) wrote:
> Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
> you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
Actually, why not?
> <images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
I don't see any reason there couldn't eventually be VGA output on
palmtops. It could even be a little connectible module with video card
electronics in it. It would still be better than lugging a notebook.
That would actually be kind of nice...
James E. Lee
William Ofosu-Amaah (wo...@worldnet.att.REMOVETHIS.net) wrote:
> aj...@ibm.net (Ajai Khattri) wrote:
> >Don't see how a Powerpoint viewer is going to be much use - what are
> >you going to do? give a presentation on your WinCE palmtop? ;-)
> >
> ><images of executives huddled round tiny palmtop LCD screen>
> WinCE 2.0 supports PCMCIA VGA Cards so you can hook it up to an
> external monitor and have the execs huddle around the monitor
> instead :-)
Well, I guess I wasn't so off-base in thinking this could be done.
That's good to know!
Even still, they wouldn't have to be 'huddled around' anything; if you
can output to VGA, you can connect it to a dataplate or VGA projector.
Tóth Attila
Alasdair Manson wrote:
> You are making the common mistake of confusing quality with features.
> They are two completely different things.
I didn't mention quality in this comparison. Yes, it's about the features. People
will not buy excellent quality product which lacks number of features they need.
regards
Attila
Alasdair Manson
>Because I am sure that those who pay the big bucks for a license to use
>EPOC32 as part of their own stuff (OEM) have access to all the docs they
>want. And this is perhaps why PSION won't reveal file formats etc to the
>general public since it would remove value to the deal made with the
>Phillips and Geofox of the world.
>(If you paid $$$$ for the licence and then find out that most of the
>info is public domain, how would you feel ?)
It has very little to do with that - they chose EPOC32 for this device
because it was technically (and, one assumes, commercially) superior
to Windows CE.
Tóth Attila
> It has very little to do with that - they chose EPOC32 for this device
> because it was technically (and, one assumes, commercially) superior
> to Windows CE.
Place your hand to your heart, why Philips (COMPAQ, Casio, NEC, Hitachi,
Sharp, LG, last but not least Ericsson) doesn't choose EPOC32 for handhelds?
Maybe you are right, EPOC is technically excellent, but do you think
(honestly) that all these companies fail? Will they change to EPOC later?
Well, if the market grows fast enough there will be place for both EPOC32 and
Emmanuel Baechler
> [...] You can say you don't need color screen, but the average user
> will need it, I think.
And I don't think so. I don't need a color screen to manage my
appointments, my todo lists, to take notes during meetings and
so on. I don't need a color screen to look at all the documents
(some standard and some project specific) I carry with me.
I don't think a doctor will need a color screen to look at patient
records and to order exams and drugs. I don't think an attorney
will need a color screen to write a letter while he's off her(his)
office. I don't think that a civil enginneer will need a color
screen when he's in a meeting taking note and looking at project
documents.
Quite frankly, even with my PC, I use colors only from time to time
for SOME sort of presentations. And this type of activity is certainly
not the first type of use of a handleld.
> You are right most people are conservative, they like very much reusing
> their knowledge. That's why they will choose Windows like devices.
That's why they may try it and that's also why they'll reject it. CE's
user
interface has never been thought for handheld use. It is just a stripped
down
version of Win95. But as handhelds have much smaller keyborards and
screens,
no mouse and as they are used in a very different way than a desktop PC
or
even a laptop, CE is very poorly adapted to its task. That's why Pilots,
Psions
(and to some extents newtons) are selling very well, while CE machines
aren't.
Emmanuel Baechler
Service des Hospices Cantonaux
Office informatique
Bugnon 21
1015 Lausanne
Switzerland
--- Standard Disclaimer ---
Rafael Humpert
as far as I know, Epoc32 also supports color display.
Rafael Humpert
> I would suspect that purchasing a laptop with win95 on it would be mush
> more efficient.....or maybe microsoft are misguided into thinking that
> palmtop customers really want a laptop in disguise.....if they did, the
> Libretto is the way to go, no Wince - ing hangups with it OS.
why not NT? then no wincing with win95...
Alasdair Manson
On 22 Oct 1997 02:28:37 GMT, je...@atlas.ucdavis.edu (James E. Lee)
wrote:
>Actually, why not?
I agree also. When you see people at trade shows lugging their
enormous and expensive laptops around ask them why they are carrying
them. Most common answers include mail and presentations. I know this
as I carry my laptop for giving PowerPoint presentations commonly.
Enable this application (presentations that is) on a palmtop and, for
me, I'd never have to carry my laptop again.
John Holloway
How about thinking about the WinCE SDK cost, plus mandatory MSVC v5, plus
... plus HUGE PC to run it all on etc. Costs are about the same for both
platforms. These costs pale into insignificance when talking about
programmer time for either platform, let alone boxed product, internet
wrappers or all the other bits requried for commercial apps. For
shareware/freeware you can write the apps on the S5 in OPL, using the S3a
programming book - free with earlier S3a if required... No programming
available as std on any Wince machine.
Regards
John
Scott Magoon
Ajai Khattri wrote in message <3454a3b9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
>On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:03:26 -0500, jf mezei
><"[non-spam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> wrote:
>|Use a PC or a MAC to make graphs. Use the pocket computer for entering
>|information
>|and formulas for quick calculations. If you need graphs, transfer your
>|PDA's sheets in standard formats to your pC to have them imaged as
>|graphs.
>In other words you need a PC to really take advantage of a WinCE
>machine! You don't for an S5. That is the fundamental difference.
Yeah, but who doesn't already have a PC?
>So you're saying that noone uses the graph much and those that do are
>simply 'showing off'? I think I beg to differ - for some people, the
>Psion is the *only* computer they have and so they will use it as
>their main computer. The S5 is not a PC parasite like WinCE is. I
>don't even have a PC at home!
Oh. All right then. Never mind.
JJ
Emmanuel Baechler wrote:
> > [...] You can say you don't need color screen, but the average user
> > will need it, I think.
>
> And I don't think so. I don't need a color screen to manage my
> appointments, my todo lists, to take notes during meetings and
> so on. I don't need a color screen to look at all the documents
> (some standard and some project specific) I carry with me.
I do need color screen, and in this particular case is not even for seeing
porn picture.
-I have line chart with multiple data lines. this can be seen much much
easier in colors.
- I would like to be able to highlight my appointments and to do list not
just in bold/cursive mode.
-icons can be seen much easier in color. which in turn can be displayed in
smaller size.....thus more information density in the small screen
Ever consider that one of the reason CE 1.o is selling poorly is because it
has only 4 gray scale levels as compare to Psion 16 scales? This just to
prove that the higher the color option, the better data looks on the screen.
...to say color is superfluous...
of course, the pornographic application is a bit superfluous to say the
least. but there are practical applications.
jf mezei
JJ wrote:
> Ever consider that one of the reason CE 1.o is selling poorly is because it
> has only 4 gray scale levels as compare to Psion 16 scales? This just to
> prove that the higher the color option, the better data looks on the screen.
One could argue that the Series 3 sold more than WinCE and it only has 3
shades (white, grey, black). And guess what, with current LCD
technology, it makes it damm more readable that way.
jf mezei
Alasdair Manson wrote:
> I countered, suggesting that sales of Windows CE devices between these
> companies are very poor *in relative terms* given their might in the
> industry. Psion is a relatively small company compared to these giants
> and it sold *more computers than all of them put together*.
A more accurate comparison would be for 1997 sales betwene June and
December.
(PSION's series 5 (and Geofox) vs all of WINCE. Such a picture may not
yield such impressive results for PSION. PSION has been around many
years and its installed base is obviously impressive. But only "current"
sales are important for the marketing hype used by MS.
While small, PSION had a HUGE technological lead with Series 3 compared
to "fixed" devices such as CASIO's BOSS. The Newton was "too different"
and probably sold mostly to bleeding edge folks only.
But now, with Bill Gates pushing its might, no matter the quality of
WinCE, the marketing of WinCE will make it VERY hard for PSION to keep
its market share. At best, the market will grow tremendously and WINCE
will grap most of that growth (with PSION loosing market share even if
its own sales still grow (aka: APPLE).
> When you consider the fact that Psion Software has successfully
> licensed to 3 companies who have announced products, the potential of
> EPOC32 is encouraging.
People don't buy EPOC32 when they buy a PDA or photocopier, telephone or
sewing machine. They buy a unit which happens to have, hidden in its
innards, software from PSION. So the only "licensees" that count from a
marketing/hype point of view is those who will compete against the S5 in
the PDA market.
So of those 3 licensees, isn't Geofox the only one to come out with a
PDA ?
Duncan Murray
>palmtops. It could even be a little connectible module with video card
>electronics in it. It would still be better than lugging a notebook.
>
>That would actually be kind of nice...
Surely it would flatten the batteries like a 10 ton truck thou?
(Barring fabby new longer life better ouput batteries - eventually)
On another note, why don't Psion release a desktop version of EPOC32?
As an OS I'd rather have it on my desktop than Win95. It has a suite
of apps already, you could come up with some great new apps to take
advantage of the hardware, and would probably mean a truly seamless
interface between your psion5 and desktop pc. Ok, ok it's not as easy
as all that and there is Micro$oft in the way, but I'd pay for it :)
Just a thought....
Cheers,
Duncan.
Duncan Murray
System Admin, Orion Engineering
dun...@NOSPAM-orioneng.co.uk
Please ^^^^^^ remove before replying!
Rafael Humpert
as you seem to have some advanced knowledge: what do you say to WinCE?
Regards,
Rafael Humpert
Andrew Mobbs wrote:
> In article <346c6f87...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
> Ajai Khattri <aj...@ibm.net> wrote:
> >On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:04:04 GMT, an...@defsdoor.demon.co.uk (Andrew
> >Porter) wrote:
> >
> >|Yet Windows 95 still runs no faster that Windows 3.1
> >|did on my first PC 5 years ago.
> >
> >Though printing in the background helps ;-)
> >Also remember, a more advanced OS requires more memory and disk space
> >- you don't get anything for free! ;-)
>
> That's not true.
>
> There are dozens of examples of "more advanced" OSes which are far
> smaller than the latest offerings from Microsoft or Apple. Windows 95
> is a particually noticable example of an operating system that is very
> primitive, and requires large amounts of resources. (For "advanced"
> OSes, look at Plan 9, Inferno, HURD or any of the dozens coming out of
> University systems groups. For OSes using 30 year old ideas, that are
> still more advanced and smaller than Windows 95, look at any Unix or
> VMS).
>
> The most "advanced" OS I've used is Nemesis, which is a research
> project at the University of Cambridge.
> <URL:http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/pegasus/nemesis.html>
>
> EPOC32 is a reasonably advanced operating system, certainly much more
> than Windows 95, and fits into the Series 5 ROM, along with a GUI and a
> bunch of apps. (Anybody know how big EPOC32, as installed on the Series
> 5, is?)
>
> I'll fully admit that these, and other OSes, may have fewer 'features'
> than something like Windows 95 (or NT, which is *far* more advanced
> that '95), but these tend to be bells & whistles, not core
> functionality. You don't need an animated icon to watch while you copy
> files, but you do need a decent process scheduler, filesystem, memory
> management system and device drivers.
>
> --
> Andrew Mobbs - http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~andrewm/
Daniel Pfund
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Alasdair Manson wrote:
> I see little point in advertising the Series 5 in the US right now as
> demand continues to outstrip supply and Psion Inc. is selling all the
> Series 5s it can gets it's hands on right now. Advertising might fuel
> interest in the product but that would exacerbate any customer
> frustration at lack of products in the channels at this time.
Ali,
Exactly my idea as well. I think it's about time to upgrade that tiny
factory of yours ;-)
Regards,
Daniel Pfund
--
|\ |\ PSION specialists: http://www.planet-pfund.com
| )|/ *--------------------------------------------*
|/ | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8130/
Ajai Khattri
On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:18:41 +0100, "Jon Smallwood"
<jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
|>Can you print from CE now or is that still brain-damaged.
|>
|Whereas printing on the Series 5 is totally reliable and bug-free!!?
Im my experience? Yes.
|No one is suggesting that one would use the machine to give a
|presentation.
My little tongue-in-cheek comment seems to be lost in this thread!
Regards,
--
Aj. (aj...@ibm.net)
Engineering Consultant, The Market Net Group
Emmanuel Baechler
> [...]
>
> -icons can be seen much easier in color. which in turn can be displayed in
> smaller size.....thus more information density in the small screen
I remember the old B/W Macintosh screens which were agreable to use. A
color
screen may help, but it is not a requirement for me.
IMO, the primary use of a handheld is to manage all sorts of (usually
short)
documents. I do not consider a color screen as required to look at text.
Emmanuel Baechler
Lausanne
Switzerland
Kevin Dixon
jf mezei wrote:
>
> And this is perhaps why PSION won't reveal file formats etc to the
> general public since it would remove value to the deal made with the
> Phillips and Geofox of the world.
I'm still intrigued. You have stated on a number of occasions that
Psion will not release "file formats". As someone else has replied
there are no 'file formats' in the strict sense of the word - Both
apps on the S5 and PsiWin conversion software utilise EPOC32 C++ object
interfaces to access file data. In addition, OPL OPX's are being
written to allow access to similar interfaces from OPL.
Perhaps if people here knew the exact nature of your problem,
we may be able to help?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Dixon (kevin...@psion.com)
A Psion Software employee in a personal capacity (too ;)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Views expressed here are not those of my employer, etc... etc..
---------------------------------------------------------------
Alasdair Manson
>A more accurate comparison would be for 1997 sales betwene June and
>December.
Perhaps.
>(PSION's series 5 (and Geofox) vs all of WINCE. Such a picture may not
>yield such impressive results for PSION.
But, then again, it may.
>So of those 3 licensees, isn't Geofox the only one to come out with a
>PDA ?
Erm, no. Psion Computers plc released a machine called the Series 5. I
think you bought one, didn't you ? :-)
best regards
Alasdair Manson
Andrew Johnson
Duncan Murray wrote:
> On another note, why don't Psion release a desktop version of EPOC32?
> As an OS I'd rather have it on my desktop than Win95. It has a suite
> of apps already, you could come up with some great new apps to take
> advantage of the hardware, and would probably mean a truly seamless
> interface between your psion5 and desktop pc. Ok, ok it's not as easy
> as all that and there is Micro$oft in the way, but I'd pay for it :)
There's at least one very good reason for not doing this - have you
looked to see how many different kinds of "standard" I/O drivers are
needed to run your average PC, even under Linux? Psion would be swamped
trying to support virtually any kind of PC platform. Presumably
EPOCworld members (I'm not) could run all the standard S5 apps on the
development environment under NT/W95 if they'd rather use them to
MS/Lotus/whoever applications.
-- Andrew
___
.' `. Andrew Johnson, Head of Electronics
/ Royal ) Royal Greenwich Observatory
\ Greenwich Madingley Road, Cambridge, CB3 0EZ
| Observatory Tel: +44 1223 374823 Fax: 374700
+---------- WWW: http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/~anj
Andrew Johnson
Kevin Dixon wrote:
> Perhaps if people here knew the exact nature of your problem,
> we may be able to help?
Can I perhaps rephrase what I think this thread has been arguing about
(I'm not one of the original posters but I think I understand the point
and would like to hear the answer).
I have a computer running some foreign (read non-NT/W95) OS, which has
its own calendar software similar to Agenda, and I would like to be able
to synchronize my Psion 5 with this.
I could XModem an Agenda file to/from the remote machine, but it's been
made clear in this thread that the format of this file will (should?)
not be published so this would be a waste of time.
As Psion aren't going to support their development system under my OS, I
want to write the software to do the sychronization myself. Do Psion
publish the information on their serial protocols sufficient to allow me
to write the software for my OS? Where, and is it free? If not, how do
I do this synchronization?
Repeat the above argument for all applicable built-in Psion apps.
Does this make the question clearer?
Is this actually what this thread has been arguing about?
Andrew Mobbs
In article <344F4F74...@iname.com>,
Rafael Humpert <rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
>as you seem to have some advanced knowledge: what do you say to WinCE?
Aaargh! Run Away! Run Away!
Ahem. Automatic reaction I'm afraid, actually I've never used WinCE.
I've looked at what Microsoft term a "datasheet", but that gives almost
no detail, and instead is a collection of slightly more technical
buzzwords than the normal description. Psion is much better in that
what they term an "overview" of EPOC32 gives more detail than MS's
"datasheet".
In answer to your question, I don't know enough about WinCE, even
having read Microsoft's "technical" description, to really comment. To
stick my neck out, it appears to be a fairly average embedded OS,
without any really revolutionary features, but a nice looking IP stack.
Keith Walker
Andrew Johnson (a...@ast.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: I have a computer running some foreign (read non-NT/W95) OS, which has
: its own calendar software similar to Agenda, and I would like to be able
: to synchronize my Psion 5 with this.
: I could XModem an Agenda file to/from the remote machine, but it's been
: made clear in this thread that the format of this file will (should?)
: not be published so this would be a waste of time.
Using XModem to copy it onto your own computer and running a conversion
there requires that you need to know the format of the file so you
can write a convertor on your own computer.
But what if you had a convertor which runs on the Psion 5 itself and you
copy the converted file using XModem. In theory this is how Psion's
new scheme works .... they provide programming interfaces to the data
streams (files) that allows you to write a convertor access to the data
and write it out in another form.
I believe that this is how the convertors in PsiWin 2.0 work .... they
are just programs, running on a mini EPOC32 emulation on the PC, using these
data stream programming interfaces.
If you have the C++ SDK you have access to these interfaces ... but you
have quite a steep learning curve to go through in order to use the SDK.
Also you need a PC with MS C++ in order to easily develop with the SDK!
The other alternative is to use an OPX which provides OPL the necessary
programming interfaces .... unfortunately there currently aren't OPX's
for all the data streams in the Psion 5.
Now if there were OPXs for all the data streams (obviously providing all
the necessary information) then the call for documentation for the
underlying file formats would probably not be quite so strident.
The question is .... how long is it going to take for the necessary
OPXs to arrive so that Joe Bloggs can access this data without having
to invest in the C++ SDK, a PC with C++ MSDEV and the time to learn C++.
There is the "Project OPX" for members of EPOC World which is a
collaboration of developers for creating new OPXs. There are currently
2 OPXs published from this collaboration. The following
descriptions taken from EPOC World's web site:
Agenda OPX: This OPX allows you to open and close existing agenda files
and add/modify any entries.
SysRAM1 OPX: This OPX contains the following procedures: DbFind,
DbFindField, GetThreadIdByCaption, GetFileSize,
ROMVersionMajor, ROMVersionMinor.
What I am not sure about is when/whether these and future OPXs will
ever be available in the non-members section of EPOC World.
I can understand why some people are so frustrated by not having access
to the file formats. But I can also understand why Psion say that
there are no publically documented formats and that you should use the
programming interfaces to get the data from the files.
Keith
--
Keith Walker, Fujitsu ICL, Lovelace Rd., Bracknell, Berkshire, UK RG12 8SN
Email: k...@fjcomp.com; Phone: +44 1344 472209 ; Fax: +44 1344 472987
Dav...@tas.fire.gov.au
Daniel Pfund wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Alasdair Manson wrote:
>
The advertising for the Psion Series 5 in the US is in full swing and
been sponsored by New World Technologies Inc, and distributed in the
August Issue of PEN COMPUTING.
Cheers,
David Macfarlane
Hobart. Tasmania.
Australia.
Ajai Khattri
On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:16:43 +0200, "Tóth Attila"
<Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote:
|2. I doubt that either Psion or Geofox can compete with Sharp, Philips, HP.
But they already are aren't they? I mean Psion have 33% of the market
worldwide right?
|BTW I'm a Siena user, and satisfied with it. But if I need to upgrade I will not
|choose Psion just because of the name.
So why do you think people with choose Casio or Sharp? Because of the
name? You contradict yourself!
Ajai Khattri
|Because I am sure that those who pay the big bucks for a license to use
|EPOC32 as part of their own stuff (OEM) have access to all the docs they
|want. And this is perhaps why PSION won't reveal file formats etc to the
|general public since it would remove value to the deal made with the
|Phillips and Geofox of the world.
Another option may be that the formats are not finalised yet...
Ajai Khattri
On 22 Oct 1997 03:08:14 GMT, je...@atlas.ucdavis.edu (James E. Lee)
wrote:
|Out of curiosity, can you speak at all on the apparent lack of visibility
|of Psion in advertising in the U.S.?
The had a great write-up in Pen Computing and BYTE and the last issue
of BYTE had a good article on EPOC32... They also advertise in Mobile
Computing (formerly Mobile Office) and various other periodicals.
The one thing they don't have is a great TV ad but maybe that will
happen someday?
|I would think that Psion would want to be in all the trade magazines, and
|I have so far only seen it in reviews. By contrast, I've seen Pilots and
|WinCE devices in the 'warehouse' magazines (I can't remember the names,
|but you know, the free periodic ones with the picuture of the operator on
|front who is "waiting to take your order"?)
Look at Micro Warehouse and Sharper Image to name but two.
These are big names, not your average corner store ;-)
Ajai Khattri
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:28:42 -0500, jf mezei
<"[non-spam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> wrote:
|DOS/WINDOWS 3.1 has nothing like that although the MAC has had that for
|a long time too.
Its interesting to note that Win98 will have support for up to four
displays but the Macs have had support for up to 6 displays for years
and years... Macs had plug-n-play features for many years. Apple just
didn't sell it well enough. I am glad that M$ practices are being
probed once again. Mind you, BG has probably factored in the cost of
any legal fees and settlements and still make a big profit!
|MVS mainframes were able to support hundreds of users on 8mb of RAM back
|in the early 80s.
Albeit with character screens (which being 80 x 24 chars prob. used
less than 2K - add the process code and it probably isn't bigger than
64K). Also remember that advanced systems such as UNIX, VMS and MVS
had advanced features such as demand paging, swap files, shared
libraries, etc. which didn't exist on lesser systems such as DOS and
Windows. These days people want graphical interfaces, even if they
don't understand what double-click means or what an icon is! ;-) Now
finally Windows95 has swapping (still not as good as fully pre-emptive
demand-paged systems but better than before). My biggest gripe with NT
is that they never used a distributed windowing system like X for
remote access. (Yes I know you can use WinFrame but still, it would be
nice to have this built-in to the OS). UNIX systems have had X for
years which makes them great for remote access and admin functions.
|In the early days, builders *HAD* to rely on qualified and experienced
|programmers to code in assembler and fit all the complex logic in as
|little ra, as possible. But now, companies use "young keen programmers"
|using simple tools to code operating systems because the emphasis is
|more on delivery at least cost/time compared to more efficient code.
This is the side-effect of all these new visual tools that do most of
the work for you. They don't generate the best code (either in terms
of footprint or efficiency and/or speed) but you don't need to pay a
consultant $K's to code stuff. Sad but true.
Pieter Geelen
jf mezei <"[non-spam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> wrote in
<344D8E...@videotron.ca>...
> Because I am sure that those who pay the big bucks for a license to use
> EPOC32 as part of their own stuff (OEM) have access to all the docs they
> want. And this is perhaps why PSION won't reveal file formats etc to the
> general public since it would remove value to the deal made with the
> Phillips and Geofox of the world.
Another great conspiracy theory by jf.
> (If you paid $$$$ for the licence and then find out that most of the
> info is public domain, how would you feel ?)
There is *no* *relationship* *whatsoever* here. You pay $$$$ for the right
to produce machines using the operating system. You pay it gladly if the OS
is wonderful, you pay it grumpily if it stinks but you "have to" support it
(guess which OS am I talking about here?).
The idea of companies preferring operating systems because the general
public isn't aware of how to hack the agenda format in their OPL programs
is a new high even for you.
jf mezei
I would not have answered this because I have already said the stuff
below many times, but since it came from a PSION employee (not
representing the company), I was extremely puzzled why someone at PSION
would really beleive the propaganda about "no file layouts".
Kevin Dixon wrote:
> I'm still intrigued. You have stated on a number of occasions that
> Psion will not release "file formats". As someone else has replied
> there are no 'file formats' in the strict sense of the word - Both
> apps on the S5 and PsiWin conversion software utilise EPOC32 C++ object
> interfaces to access file data.
If there are no file formats, how do the object interfaces know where
and how objects are stored on disks ?. Just because a application
software uses routines to gain access to data does not mean that data is
stored randomly in memory.
Unless, of course, EPOC32 really does store stuff totally randomly on
its disks and does totally random searches until it finds whatever your
applications wants to access.
So, just because OPL and C++ applications on the S5 were given routines
to simplify their access to data structures does not mean that there are
no data structures in the files.
And since these routines (methods in OO talk) exist only on the S5 and
WIN32, those who use different platforms (minis/mainframes) to generate
and read files that are downloaded to mobile users via COMMS (or later
by email) cannot use PSION's S5 products and must stick to the S3
because of PSION's unwilliness to
release these file layouts as had been done for the S3.
Rick Stevenson
Alasdair Manson wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:46:25 +0200, Rafael Humpert
> <rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
>
> >If I'm not mistaken,
> >development cost on CE machines is lower than for Epoc32 (just think of their
> >hefty EpocWorld subscription fee).
>
> $300 - hefty ? In relative terms perhaps. However, I would have
> thought that any professional/serious developer would not object to
> paying $300 (it's only <$6 a week) to ensure that he or she has the
> latest information.
It is a hefty cost to someone like myself who has no intention of
becoming a serious Psion developer, but who would probably port
and make available some useful tools if there was a free or nominal
cost C/C++ development kit. IMHO providing a development kit on this
basis would be a good strategy for Psion in the battle against the
evil empire!
Also, since I've now bothered to post to this group I should point
out that I'm a satisfied Series 5 owner. No problems with hinges,
pen, the UI, etc. There's probably a lot of us around, but we
have nothing much to complain about ;-)
Cheers,
Rick Stevenson.
Ajai Khattri
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:22:11 +0200, "Tóth Attila"
<Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote:
|Place your hand to your heart, why Philips (COMPAQ, Casio, NEC, Hitachi,
|Sharp, LG, last but not least Ericsson) doesn't choose EPOC32 for handhelds?
Because they jumped on the M$ bandwagon thinking it would mean big
bucks. So far, reality has not made this dream come true.
|Maybe you are right, EPOC is technically excellent, but do you think
|(honestly) that all these companies fail?
No, but the market for palmtops will become a much bigger place and
everyone will benefit.
|Will they change to EPOC later?
Maybe... maybe not - who knows? I heard a rumour that the VELO was not
doing too well and then we see an announcement that they will license
EPOC32... looks a bit fishy to me.
|Well, if the market grows fast enough there will be place for both EPOC32 and
|WinCE. I hope so.
I agree.
Ajai Khattri
|Yeah, but who doesn't already have a PC?
SSsshhhhhh! Don't say that with all the Mac, OS/2, Atari, Amig and
Acorn owners around ;-)
|Oh. All right then. Never mind.
I don't have a PC of my own as such. Luckily, Ive been relying on
computers at work (be it Win95, NT or Unix) so Ive always managed to
make backups though I have flash cards too. But I do have various
Psions which have all been very very useful. My GF used her 3a with
DataView Pro to organize and print a mailing-list for her show (she is
an artist) at a local gallery. She didn't need a PC or Mac do to it
but more importantly she didn't feel the need to buy a big PC if her
Psion could do the job. I bought her a printer for typing letters and
printing out stuff and it seems to work fine.
Now, if only she could stop losing her Psions all the time! ;-)
(Why don't Psion have the ability to locate them by transmitting a
code to them which they respond to with a beep? My cheapo cordless
phone can do this ;-)
Ajai Khattri
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:29:10 +0200, Rafael Humpert
<rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
|I hope there'll be a handheld, no matter what company or OS, that really suits my
|needs (stable, fast, Unicode, keyboard) soon. My Series 5 is a compromise.
ALL palmtops are a compromise! Question is, can you live with them and
find them genuinely peaceful. I think sales of such devices answer the
latter question.
Ajai Khattri
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:52 +0200, Rafael Humpert
<rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
|why not NT? then no wincing with win95...
Because NT on laptops is actually a pretty poor match - no power
management features, no hot-swap support, etc etc. Now NT 5.0, OTOH
may have these features...
Ajai Khattri
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:14:27 +0100, Jeremy Rickard
<Jer...@jbdr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|Me too. And not just palmtops. Look how people are starting to flock
|to to SQL Server, just because it's Microsoft :-(
And then when their database needs grow too large for SQL Server to
handle they go an buy a 'real' database ;-) SQL Server doesn't scale
very well to large installations - many end up using databases running
on UNIX servers because it seems to be the only OS that can handle it!
Rafael Humpert
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:29:10 +0200, Rafael Humpert
> <rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
>
> |I hope there'll be a handheld, no matter what company or OS, that really suits my
> |needs (stable, fast, Unicode, keyboard) soon. My Series 5 is a compromise.
>
> ALL palmtops are a compromise! Question is, can you live with them and
> find them genuinely peaceful. I think sales of such devices answer the
> latter question.
Correct. But sales today do not mirror the future. I think it would be sensible to
think of where you want to go tomorrow.
Regards
Rafael Humpert
Kevin Dixon
jf mezei wrote:
>
> I would not have answered this because I have already said the stuff
> below many times, but since it came from a PSION employee (not
> representing the company), I was extremely puzzled why someone at PSION
> would really beleive the propaganda about "no file layouts".
I believe the 'propaganda' because I was on the Agenda team for the
Series 5,
and guess what, one of my major responsibilities was file handling :-O
The data handling in Epoc32 has a firm and well-established basis in
Object-Orientation, which someone more eloquent than myself has already
explained in some detail on this database. It has hordes of advantages
(read
any good book on OOD/OOA.
> If there are no file formats, how do the object interfaces know where
> and how objects are stored on disks ?.
Each object knows how to store and restore itself. It doesn't do this to
a
'disk' or a 'file', but to a Stream Store. How the object is physically
stored
below the Stream Store layer is irrelevant to that object. It doesn't
*need*
to know. (And as a programmer at one of the upper levels, neither do I).
There are obvious advantages to this - You are not constrained to files
and
disks, but with a single interface (which remains the same), the data
itself
could be stored anywhere, anyhow, even "anywhen". It could stored on
strips of
Emmental (data encoded in the holes, of course :-). It could be stored
half
in memory, and half on disk. (This is in fact much how the Agenda engine
works*).
It also has obvious advantages cross-platform, and is "future proof" to
some degree
(in that the physical representation could change with different
media/better
storage or compression techniques, and the code above the stream store
level would
remain unchanged). The file format could also be added to; Previous
software
written before the additions would continue to work.
When you ask for 'file formats/layouts' it's like asking for the
byte-by-byte
structure of an SQL database in order to extract some information - Very
long-winded,
and completely defeats the point of SQL.
As I said, all this has been said before, and any good book on OOD/OOA
will explain
it better.
Still, I was trying to help here, when I said "Perhaps if people here
knew the exact
nature of your problem, we may be able to help?". So consider it said
again ;-)
--
--TTFN
--K
* - The half/half, not the cheese ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Dixon (kevin...@psion.com)
William Scott
jf mezei writes in article <344D93...@videotron.ca>:
>Alasdair Manson wrote:
>> There is no denying that Windows CE is gaining momentum and is a major
>> force but it's not the holy grail which MS have lead you to believe it
>> is.
>
>In this age of hype, it isn't the true "hard" numbers that count, it is
>how well a company can spin those numbers and how much "positive growth"
>is shown.
>
>And if people get the *IMPRESSION* that WINce is winning the numbers
>game, that WINce will eventually win. And if PSION is unfortunate enough
>to get some news that its market share is going down, then it will be
>really bad news for PSION.
Really, I suppose you mean just like MSIE v Netscape (which MS still
hasn't won despite the most ridiculous cross-subsidisation ever seen in
the history of the computer software industry).
>
>The licencing of EPOC32 won't help the hype game much unless PSION is
>able to provide complete numbers of the number of EPOC32 units sold,
>even if it includes sewing machines, photocopiers, handheld phones and
>PDAs. So, if PSION releases only its own numbers and does not combine
>with those of say GEOfox, then PSION's market share won'T appear as big
>as it might really be.
This is pants. I suppose you have done a marketing course recently? I
know marketing is s**t but this is even worse drivel than most of the
spew that MS produces.
But carry on the good work anyway, and I'm sure the cash will keep
rolling in ...
Ciao
Will
--
William Scott wil...@wscott.demon.co.uk
Clapham PGP Key ID 0x117FC681
London UK from key servers or email me
Andy Hardy
In article <34554430...@news.virgin.net>, Steve Waddicor <steve.wad
di...@virgin.net.blah> writes
>On Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:05:42 +0200, "Tóth Attila"
><Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
>>Microsoft needed only one year to create new version of its palmtop OS, PSION
>>needed five years.
>
>The beta version of Win95 had links to a PDA they were developing
>then. WinPad I think it was called. It had a stylus, but no
>keyboard. That was 2 1/2 years ago, so they've certainly been working
>on a PDA more than a year.
I can remember hearing of the Microsoft WinPad back in 1993 - so that's
at least 4 years. I think that it was Win3.1 based. It seemed to get
dropped when everyone else started building PDA chips and OS's e.g.
Magic Cap.
Andy
Andy Hardy. PGP key available on request
===============================================================
Andy Hardy
In article <344C64EB...@eth.ericsson.se>, =?iso-
8859-1?q?T=F3th_Attila?= <Attil...@eth.ericsson.se> writes
>At least five big manufacturer announced new machines when Microsoft released
>WinCE
>2. I doubt that either Psion or Geofox can compete with Sharp, Philips, HP.
And some of these are also licensing EPOC32 e.g. Philips.
>If you want to use new software (just because of the compatibility) you need
>more and
>more power. I don't suppose you are satisfied using a 486 PC with Win95 and
>Office97.
>If you don't need to upgrade your hardware you are a lucky man.
Hey! I run Office97, Oracle 7.3.2 and Oracle Designer 2000 on my
486/100! But yes, I'm looking towards an AMD 233. However, the
applications that I use in m palmtop - Agenda, Data and Word don't seem
to require a hefty hardware ugrade as they work as fast as I need in
their present S3a form.
>This variant of windows has (almost) all the features people need. EPOC32 or any
>other operating system is not definitely better than any kind of Windows. It is
>a
>prejudice. Try it, and than you can say it fills your needs or not.
But it is a 'strange' variant of Windows, lots of things cut out to
allow it function on a visual basis. I believe that the most important
thing when having a variety of hardware/OS platforms is for them to have
*file* compatibility.
jf mezei
Kevin Dixon wrote:
> Still, I was trying to help here, when I said "Perhaps if people here
> knew the exact
> nature of your problem, we may be able to help?". So consider it said
> again ;-)
Your eloquant "non file" architecture is cute on the S5, but causes
problems when the S5 is being used in what PDAs are supposed to be used
for: MOBILE COMPUTING. And Mobile computing requires easy exchange with
any type of machine in standard file formats.
If one were to use your logic, perhaps the person who wrote COMMS should
have been told to prohibit the sending and receiving of files (yes,
files do exist on the S5). Since COMMs is able to take your "fancy
object stream store" and combine the contents of a file and transfer it
as a file, it is only logical that PSION should be ABLE to document the
format of the files COMMs transmits and receives. The problem is that
PSION is UNWILLING to document the format of the stuff COMMs is able to
send.
Again, I do not care about low level access FROM the S5, I care about
generating and interpreting files for the S5 on a big host and have the
S5 owner download them via COMMs. (your fancy NCP protocol does not work
over modems so COMMs or FTP over internet are the only options).
Andrew Mobbs
In article <345551...@videotron.ca>,
jf mezei <"[non-spam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>Your eloquant "non file" architecture is cute on the S5, but causes
>problems when the S5 is being used in what PDAs are supposed to be used
>for: MOBILE COMPUTING. And Mobile computing requires easy exchange with
>any type of machine in standard file formats.
>
>If one were to use your logic, perhaps the person who wrote COMMS should
>have been told to prohibit the sending and receiving of files (yes,
>files do exist on the S5). Since COMMs is able to take your "fancy
>object stream store" and combine the contents of a file and transfer it
>as a file, it is only logical that PSION should be ABLE to document the
>format of the files COMMs transmits and receives. The problem is that
>PSION is UNWILLING to document the format of the stuff COMMs is able to
>send.
>
>Again, I do not care about low level access FROM the S5, I care about
>generating and interpreting files for the S5 on a big host and have the
>S5 owner download them via COMMs. (your fancy NCP protocol does not work
>over modems so COMMs or FTP over internet are the only options).
You are Robert McElwaine and I claim my five pounds.
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information
is ENCOURAGED.
Andrew Johnson
jf mezei wrote:
> Again, I do not care about low level access FROM the S5, I care about
> generating and interpreting files for the S5 on a big host and have the
> S5 owner download them via COMMs. (your fancy NCP protocol does not work
> over modems so COMMs or FTP over internet are the only options).
Did you read the answer to my re-wording of this problem? The way to do
it is to write the converter program to run on the Psion 5 itself and
transfer the *converted* file using COMMs. The converter program could
even connect to the serial port and implement some transfer protocol
itself rather than having to use COMMs manually.
I admit I might prefer to do the conversion process elsewhere as there
will probably be more disk space available on the other machine to hold
two copies of the data, but this may be the only way to do it in EPOC32.
Even so it's a pity that the built-in apps don't have an "Export to"
function to a defined format as this would save having to write any
software for the S5.
jf mezei
Andrew Johnson wrote:
> Did you read the answer to my re-wording of this problem? The way to do
> it is to write the converter program to run on the Psion 5 itself and
> transfer the *converted* file using COMMs.
Unfortunatly, OPL cannot write/generate DATA files. So I would need to
spend
45% of the cost of the S5 for a one year subscription to EpocWorld to
write a C++ program to do that, and I was never confirmed if C++ was
even able to write to the DATA files so such a subscription would be a
gamble.
PSION chose a proprietary architecture and want to protect it. There are
advantages to PSION and some glory to PSION programmers who can add a
few lines to their CVs, but it causes headaches to users.
PSION made a decision for such an architecture. So far, the only reason
we were given is to make it easier for PSION programmers to make those
fancy programs. Surely PSION must have considered the needs of those who
need to import/export data to remote systems and surely PSION has
thought of some solutions for them. But since PSION doesn't speak out,
we are left in the dark and can only complain.
It is ok to provide fancy features, but not at the cost of preventing
the basic features that are needed on mobile computers (such as true
text files for instance).
Ajai Khattri
|Correct. But sales today do not mirror the future. I think it would be sensible to
|think of where you want to go tomorrow.
The palmtop market has enjoyed steady growth over the past 5 years and
is predicted to become much larger whether Psion are involved or not.
Jwidjaja
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> The palmtop market has enjoyed steady growth over the past 5 years and
> is predicted to become much larger whether Psion are involved or not.
It doesn't matter if the market is growing, bad execution can by pass a company. Rising
home PC market Vs. Apple.Sharp long running leader in handheld Vs. PalmPilot.
Psion begins to show that problems. Excellent machine, but a little off beat.
catch 22.
market share -> de facto standard -> developer interest -> app. -> more shares...->
etc.
The fact that there is no independent developer jump right out to grab the opportunity
to develop an email client for psion is a bad sign. (oh i forgot, Psi win can be used
for downloading email, but so is my pencil and legal notepad)
True enough CE 1.0 is terrible. But the ability to command presentmarket share and
developer interest should warn Psion to move a little faster. (Don't give me The M$
marketting machine rap, consumer and developers are not stupid. They don't mind
dropping a a dead end product, look at all M$ previous failed attemps on writing OS for
small machine)
Hasn't anybody realize that the product life cycle of this little machine will only be
about less than 6 months? Soon 4 weeks different can kills a product line. Hitachi,
Sharp, Casio are able to make new design every other quarter. Can Psion afford that if
it doesn't have the OS market share?
Kevin Dixon
jf mezei wrote:
>
> Andrew Johnson wrote:
> > Did you read the answer to my re-wording of this problem? The way to do
> > it is to write the converter program to run on the Psion 5 itself and
> > transfer the *converted* file using COMMs.
Yes!
> Unfortunatly, OPL cannot write/generate DATA files.
This is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if a DATA OPX arrived some
time
in the near future, in which case it will be possible. (I endeavoured to
find out when/if for definite, but the relevant person here at Psion is
unavailable today).
> 45% of the cost of the S5 for a one year subscription to EpocWorld to
> write a C++ program to do that, and I was never confirmed if C++ was
> even able to write to the DATA files so such a subscription would be a
> gamble.
DATA itself is written in C++, so no reason why not. I guess the only
thing you'd be missing is the documentation (the App engines and
relevant
header files are going to be released in a forthcoming release of the
SDK).
Hope that makes things a wee bit clearer
--
--TTFN
--K
Verner Hanna (Jnr)
I'm getting really irritated with this WIN CE is great crap.
Have any of you who sprout this crap used it??
I would guess not.
Stop listening to Microsoft's Propaganda machine and try it out.
I have had a Cassiopea as a development tool provided by my company for
almost a year now. It's pathetic.
It's large, cumbersome, falls over when the screen is tapped and eats
batteries. The screen is poor and the build quality is terrible, but
that's just it's good points!! Win CE is pathetically slow. Hav eyou
ever used Pocket word?? The notepad function within Windows 95 has more
functions!! Pocket Excel, pocket boll*x more like.
As for connectivity with Windows, it's much more cumbersome and far
slower than PsiWin.
I have an old Series 3 I'd rather use than Win CE at present, even with
the specs for WIN CE V2.00 I'll stick to my Series 5. If Microsoft ever
do come up with a better solution to hand held computing than Psion,
I'll be the first to buy it but take it from someone with painful
experience of having to use WIN CE through work, I'd stick to any of the
Psion range without hesitation.
Please don't fall for all the hype try the bloody things out before
sprouting crap all over this list!
(IMHO)
Verner
--
tHe LiTtLe YeLlOw DaFfOdIl @}-,-'--
Rafael Humpert
How about the PC market, it also enjoyed steady growth over the past 5 years and
did become much larger, theoretically giving ample space for different OS to flourish.
But now it's Windows for what-do-I-know how many percent.
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:14:21 +0100, Rafael Humpert
> <rhum...@iname.com> wrote:
>
> |Correct. But sales today do not mirror the future. I think it would be sensible to
> |think of where you want to go tomorrow.
>
> The palmtop market has enjoyed steady growth over the past 5 years and
> is predicted to become much larger whether Psion are involved or not.
>