Mako/Revo Power-Battery Summary Questions...>>>
Marty S.
solutions people have talked about for the Diamond Mako/Revo, I think I
understand. Let me see if I have this right...>>> for a new unit, you plug
the thing in and let it sit overnight. Then the unit will function properly
giving about 10-12 hours before needing recharging, right??
Ok, if that's right, what about the issue of recharging the unit? Can the
Mako/Revo be kept plugged in for extended periods (like a few weeks to a
month) without damaging the batteries or the internal circuitry of the unit?
Or, do you have to remove the unit from the charger relatively soon after
recharging and let it run down to 10% to 20% before recharging??
Is there a good summary someplace about this??
Thanks in advance.
--
Marty S.
Baltimore, MD USA
NoJags Neil
> the thing in and let it sit overnight.
Correct
> Then the unit will function properly
> giving about 10-12 hours before needing recharging, right??
That may be pushing it a bit. Maybe a bit less.
> Ok, if that's right, what about the issue of recharging the unit? Can the
> Mako/Revo be kept plugged in for extended periods (like a few weeks to a
> month) without damaging the batteries or the internal circuitry of the
unit?
I wouldn't recommend that.
> Or, do you have to remove the unit from the charger relatively soon after
> recharging and let it run down to 10% to 20% before recharging??
Kevin Millican (below) recommends not to recharge until it's fallen below
about 84%. I think that the reason for this is that if you try to recharge
above this, it doesn't know when to switch from "fast" to "trickle".
> Is there a good summary someplace about this??
>
Funnily enough, yes! http://kevin.millican.net/Home/RevoBats.htm
Erik Sandblom
Marty S. på NewsGr...@realestate-consulting.com den 13-11-01 17.27:
> Ok, if that's right, what about the issue of recharging the unit? Can the
> Mako/Revo be kept plugged in for extended periods (like a few weeks to a
> month) without damaging the batteries or the internal circuitry of the unit?
The longest I have charged mine is a few days. I have no idea why keeping it
plugged in should be damaging. Sounds ridiculous.
> Or, do you have to remove the unit from the charger relatively soon after
> recharging
Stupid people say yes, smart people say no. My advice is, if you are nervous
about the batteries, what you should do is avoid cutting the charge when the
red light is on. From a former Psion employee,
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=sv&selm=90l2gtkj5oepujnk8k7i93egdl61anht
r6%404ax.com>
If you're still nervous, I recommend long, unbroken charges. I have a notion
this can help fix an erronous calibration.
> and let it run down to 10% to 20% before recharging??
The manual says it is better to top up the batteries than to let them run
down. I say, follow the manual.
> Is there a good summary someplace about this??
Well I just summarised what I think, but there are other people who think
differently. I don't doubt that Revo batteries sometimes can go wrong. But I
also don't doubt there is a lot of revo-battery-rubbish in circulation.
--
for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
for those who do, no explanation is necessary
Alan Meyer
sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>
>i artikel 5SbI7.37958$S4.33...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net, skrev
>Marty S. på NewsGr...@realestate-consulting.com den 13-11-01 17.27:
>
>> Ok, if that's right, what about the issue of recharging the unit? Can the
>> Mako/Revo be kept plugged in for extended periods (like a few weeks to a
>> month) without damaging the batteries or the internal circuitry of the unit?
>
>
>The longest I have charged mine is a few days. I have no idea why keeping it
>plugged in should be damaging. Sounds ridiculous.
Rechargable batteries can be destroyed by overcharging. I have had this
happen to me with NiCd batteries, and I think it can also happen with any
technology - NiMH or LiIon. Whether the Revo charging circuit fully protects
against this, I don't know. It probably does, but why push it?
>> Or, do you have to remove the unit from the charger relatively soon after
>> recharging
>
>
>Stupid people say yes, smart people say no. My advice is, if you are nervous
>about the batteries, what you should do is avoid cutting the charge when the
>red light is on. From a former Psion employee,
><http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=sv&selm=90l2gtkj5oepujnk8k7i93egdl61anht
>r6%404ax.com>
Well, I don't know about the stupid/smart distinction. I've heard a lot
of smart people disagree about battery charging. I wouldn't be too quick
to make accusations about stupidity if I were you.
>If you're still nervous, I recommend long, unbroken charges. I have a notion
>this can help fix an erronous calibration.
>
>
>> and let it run down to 10% to 20% before recharging??
>
>
>The manual says it is better to top up the batteries than to let them run
>down. I say, follow the manual.
After repeated problems with an early Revo I called their maintenance shop
here in the U.S. The technician, whose name I will not reveal since I
haven't asked his permission to use it, told me he thought the advice in
the manual only meant that, if you want to have your Revo fully charged,
keep it fully charged. He personally advised draining it right down to
zero between charges.
I've done that with all my NiMH batteries - Revo, laptop, and cell phone,
and have gotten excellent life from them. For example, I got four years
on a laptop battery when other people I knew with similar machines who
plugged theirs in regularly and kept the batteries topped up were getting
as little as one year.
>> Is there a good summary someplace about this??
>
>Well I just summarised what I think, but there are other people who think
>differently. I don't doubt that Revo batteries sometimes can go wrong. But I
>also don't doubt there is a lot of revo-battery-rubbish in circulation.
Unfortunately, I have found that sources which should be authoritative
give conflicting information about batteries.
"Memory effect" is the name given to a rechargeable battery phenomenon
in which a battery fails to fully recharge after not being fully discharged.
On a battery manufacturer's website (I think it was Everready, I
don't remember) I found a technical page that claimed there was no
memory effect on NiMH batteries. Yet CNET published an article saying
there definitely was. I wrote to the CNET columnist about it. He then
checked some experts and came back to say there absolutely was a memory
effect.
>--
>for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
>for those who do, no explanation is necessary
That sounds like a prescription for ignorance. If belief is not based
on explanation, then what is it based on, faith?
Erik Sandblom
ame...@ix.netcom.com den 21-11-01 18.45:
> In article <B8188B9F.1F3C%sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se>,
> sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>> plugged in should be damaging. Sounds ridiculous.
>
> Rechargable batteries can be destroyed by overcharging. I have had this
> happen to me with NiCd batteries, and I think it can also happen with any
> technology - NiMH or LiIon. Whether the Revo charging circuit fully protects
> against this, I don't know.
Well I don't think it's "fully" protected -- if lightning strikes your revo,
the charging circuit will probably not protect the battery. However I doubt
the Psion engineers would come up with something that would break simply
from being plugged into the wall for a few days.
> It probably does, but why push it?
Why take such a silly precaution? "I better not let this stay plugged in, it
might break." Ridiculous, it's an appliance, a computer, not any old battery
from Valu-Mart thrown into any old charger from the Dollar Store. It's all
custom built, measured and tailored to work well together.
>>> Or, do you have to remove the unit from the charger relatively soon after
>>> recharging
>>
>>
>> Stupid people say yes, smart people say no. My advice is, if you are nervous
>> about the batteries, what you should do is avoid cutting the charge when the
>> red light is on. From a former Psion employee,
>> <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=sv&selm=90l2gtkj5oepujnk8k7i93egdl61anht
>> r6%404ax.com>
>
> Well, I don't know about the stupid/smart distinction. I've heard a lot
> of smart people disagree about battery charging. I wouldn't be too quick
> to make accusations about stupidity if I were you.
Okay, perhaps stupid is an exaggeration.
>> The manual says it is better to top up the batteries than to let them run
>> down. I say, follow the manual.
>
> After repeated problems with an early Revo I called their maintenance shop
> here in the U.S. The technician, whose name I will not reveal since I
> haven't asked his permission to use it, told me he thought the advice in
> the manual only meant that, if you want to have your Revo fully charged,
> keep it fully charged.
The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
"Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
run down completely before recharging."
That can not be read to mean "if you want to have your Revo fully charged,
keep it fully charged". Either your unnamed Psion source was stupid or
unaware of the text in the manual, or both. I would believe the manual more
than a repair guy.
>> for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
>> for those who do, no explanation is necessary
>
> That sounds like a prescription for ignorance. If belief is not based
> on explanation, then what is it based on, faith?
In the case of the Revo batteries, I wish belief was based on explanation,
but it seems not to be. People have some sort of faith that if they treat
their Revo batteries like Tamagotchis, they will last longer. The manual
says what to do with the batteries. That that is insufficient tells me there
is a serious Tamagotchi syndrome around.
As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break, send them
in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if it's a tamagotchi you
want, then get a tamagotchi.
--
my site is EriksRailNews.com
Alan Meyer
sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>
... snip ...
>
>Well I don't think it's "fully" protected -- if lightning strikes your revo,
>the charging circuit will probably not protect the battery. However I doubt
>the Psion engineers would come up with something that would break simply
>from being plugged into the wall for a few days.
I hope you're right. Someone will find out and, perhaps, tell us.
They did come up with some other flaws in the design of the battery circuit,
witnessed by the number of people who had problems with the early model.
When it comes to electrical engineering, they know more than I do, but
they haven't necessarily done everything right.
>> It probably does, but why push it?
>
>Why take such a silly precaution? "I better not let this stay plugged in, it
>might break." Ridiculous, it's an appliance, a computer, not any old battery
>from Valu-Mart thrown into any old charger from the Dollar Store. It's all
>custom built, measured and tailored to work well together.
.. snip ...
>The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
>
>"Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
>better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
>run down completely before recharging."
>
>That can not be read to mean "if you want to have your Revo fully charged,
>keep it fully charged". Either your unnamed Psion source was stupid or
>unaware of the text in the manual, or both. I would believe the manual more
>than a repair guy.
I agree that the Psion technician's interpretation of the manual was bogus.
I think he disagreed with it and was trying to give some explanation that
would not directly criticize the company.
.. snip ...
>As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break, send them
>in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if it's a tamagotchi you
>want, then get a tamagotchi.
One of the problems I have with the manual is that I also have other
devices which use NiMH batteries and give contrary advice. The most
directly contrary advice comes with my Nokia cell phone. It explicitly
says in the manual that the batteries must be fully discharged from time
to time. And they even have a discharge circuit built in to the phone
such that when the charge level reaches a certain point, it discharges
down to zero automatically.
What is going on? Both the Revo and the Nokia are using the same
battery chemistry.
Is one of them wrong? Or is it somehow possible to change the chemistry
by different charging circuits?
I don't challenge your interpretation of the manuals, and I don't insist
that Psion is wrong. I'm just confused by what looks to me for all the
world like contradictory advice.
Erik Sandblom
ame...@ix.netcom.com den 22-11-01 21.51:
> In article <B821E190.2940%sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se>,
> sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>> the charging circuit will probably not protect the battery. However I doubt
>> the Psion engineers would come up with something that would break simply
>> from being plugged into the wall for a few days.
>
> I hope you're right. Someone will find out and, perhaps, tell us.
When they do, I will probably assume it is all hearsay. There is a very poor
signal-to-noise ratio in the Revo battery issue, and I wish people would be
more sensible about it. That being said, I find that ratio has gotten much
better over the past few months.
Someone mentioned a cable which bends every time you open the Revo, and this
cable can apparently be worked loose such that the connection becomes
erratic or breaks. This would explain the "gas gauge" going haywire, as well
as data loss. It seems the most plausible explanation to me, and is
tellingly unrelated to what the initial speculation was about; and no
battery charging routine can fix it.
> They did come up with some other flaws in the design of the battery circuit,
> witnessed by the number of people who had problems with the early model.
>
> When it comes to electrical engineering, they know more than I do, but
> they haven't necessarily done everything right.
I would like to rephrase that to "they haven't necessarily compensated for
every imaginable event". I agree, but it's still wrong to assume they have
designed a product which breaks when following the instructions in the
manual.
>> The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
>>
>> "Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
>> better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
>> run down completely before recharging."
>>
>> That can not be read to mean "if you want to have your Revo fully charged,
>> keep it fully charged". Either your unnamed Psion source was stupid or
>> unaware of the text in the manual, or both. I would believe the manual more
>> than a repair guy.
>
> I agree that the Psion technician's interpretation of the manual was bogus.
> I think he disagreed with it and was trying to give some explanation that
> would not directly criticize the company.
OK.
>> As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break, send them
>> in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if it's a tamagotchi you
>> want, then get a tamagotchi.
>
> One of the problems I have with the manual is that I also have other
> devices which use NiMH batteries and give contrary advice. The most
> directly contrary advice comes with my Nokia cell phone. It explicitly
> says in the manual that the batteries must be fully discharged from time
> to time. And they even have a discharge circuit built in to the phone
> such that when the charge level reaches a certain point, it discharges
> down to zero automatically.
>
> What is going on? Both the Revo and the Nokia are using the same
> battery chemistry.
>
> Is one of them wrong? Or is it somehow possible to change the chemistry
> by different charging circuits?
Well perhaps there are different kind of NiMHs which work differently. Or
maybe the same kind of battery behaves differently given different kinds of
use. I find this issue confusing too, but when in doubt, follow the manual.
> I don't challenge your interpretation of the manuals, and I don't insist
> that Psion is wrong. I'm just confused by what looks to me for all the
> world like contradictory advice.
As I said, RTFM... meaning "read the fabulous manual". But fabulous can mean
fictional... hmm... How about fantastic.
kate & joe
hi erik
i want to say i have enjoyed your contributions to 'groups such as this one.
i bought a revo 18months ago and was so happy after a year that i bought another
one for my wife -- ie i'm probably a psion/revo fundamentalist [dare i use that
term]
however i too have been plagued by the "battery" problem that recurrently appears
in psion 'groups.
since my unit is way outside the warranty period, i bravely opened the shell and
discovered that there is a flat "ribbon" or 'cable' that had an obvious
discontinuity. this was sited exactly at the point of maximal flexion/extension
that occurs with opening/closing the shell. the quote for the repair was 75% of the
price of a new unit. there was no attempt to offer a solution to the problem, just
to reinstate the original production status. if one works on the basis that these
units have therefore a life span of 18 months [admittedly i use mine frequently -
probably a dozen openings/d on days i'm at work and 1-2/ d otherwise] , it makes
the revo an expensive option to keep going.
i think this clearly represents a design flaw and was surprised and disillusioned
to find that this relatively simple problem isn't addressed definitively by psion
repairers.
am now wrestling with the options of reclaiming my wife's revo, and 'going over to
the dark side' [ie palm or CE] etc
it's not easy though because the revo is still essentially a fantastic product for
my purposes and there's not an obvious alternative available.
once again thanks for your contibutions
regards
joe
Sven Utcke
> In article <B821E190.2940%sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se>,
> sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
> >
> ... snip ...
> >
> >Well I don't think it's "fully" protected -- if lightning strikes your revo,
> >the charging circuit will probably not protect the battery. However I doubt
> >the Psion engineers would come up with something that would break simply
> >from being plugged into the wall for a few days.
Many manufacturers have. Rechargable Batteries usually do break due
to overcharging. In fact, most of what is nowadays called memory
effect is actually overcharging: you do not empty the batterie fully,
then put it into a charger which is mainly time-based. The charger
will then try to put to big a charge into the batterie. Do this 20
times, and the batterie is effectively dead (even though it should
have lasted a couple of hundred reloads).
> > > It probably does, but why push it?
> >
> > Why take such a silly precaution? "I better not let this stay
> > plugged in, it might break." Ridiculous, it's an appliance, a
> > computer, not any old battery from Valu-Mart thrown into any old
> > charger from the Dollar Store.
Is it? Doing this really right is expensive (as in several dollars
per unit, if not several tenth of dollars), getting it wrong is much
cheaper and easier...
> > The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
> >
> > "Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
> > better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
> > run down completely before recharging."
This indeed seems to indicate that they think they did get it right
(and probably have). Either that, or they speculate on future
batterie sales :-)
> I agree that the Psion technician's interpretation of the manual was
> bogus. I think he disagreed with it and was trying to give some
> explanation that would not directly criticize the company.
Yes. I only hope he didn't disagree with the manual because he knew
something which the guy who wrote the manual didn't know, like: Well,
we originally intended to do this right, but then we figured we would
rather save $5 per unit...
Remember, the Palm, which sell for several 100 dollars, can not
properly play sound because the company decided to save on a part
which costs hardly a couple of cents per unit (a capacitor).
> > As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break,
> > send them in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if
> > it's a tamagotchi you want, then get a tamagotchi.
Batteries are usually excempt from guarantee, no?
> One of the problems I have with the manual is that I also have other
> devices which use NiMH batteries and give contrary advice. The most
> directly contrary advice comes with my Nokia cell phone. It
> explicitly says in the manual that the batteries must be fully
> discharged from time to time. And they even have a discharge
> circuit built in to the phone such that when the charge level
> reaches a certain point, it discharges down to zero automatically.
>
> What is going on? Both the Revo and the Nokia are using the same
> battery chemistry.
Quite possibly the Revo is using a gradient-based charger (which knows
when to stop charging), while the Nokia uses a time-based (or even
unrestricted?) one. See above...
Sven
--
_ __ The Cognitive Systems Group
| |/ /___ __ _ ___ University of Hamburg
| ' </ _ \/ _` (_-< phone: +49 (0)40 42883-2576 Vogt-Koelln-Strasse 30
|_|\_\___/\__, /__/ fax : +49 (0)40 42883-2572 D-22527 Hamburg
|___/ http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~utcke/home.html
Erik Sandblom
på ut...@tu-harburg.de den 23-11-01 12.44:
> ame...@ix.netcom.com (Alan Meyer) writes:
>> In article <B821E190.2940%sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se>,
>> sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>>> the charging circuit will probably not protect the battery. However I doubt
>>> the Psion engineers would come up with something that would break simply
>>> from being plugged into the wall for a few days.
>
> Many manufacturers have. Rechargable Batteries usually do break due
> to overcharging. In fact, most of what is nowadays called memory
> effect is actually overcharging: you do not empty the batterie fully,
> then put it into a charger which is mainly time-based. The charger
> will then try to put to big a charge into the batterie. Do this 20
> times, and the batterie is effectively dead (even though it should
> have lasted a couple of hundred reloads).
Yeah, if you are simply putting batteries in a charger. An integrated
product like a dustbuster or PDA isn't going to be like that. You can keep
them plugged in because they have
resistor-translator-activator-positronic-matrix-overload-modulated
shielding.
>>>> It probably does, but why push it?
>>>
>>> Why take such a silly precaution? "I better not let this stay
>>> plugged in, it might break." Ridiculous, it's an appliance, a
>>> computer, not any old battery from Valu-Mart thrown into any old
>>> charger from the Dollar Store.
>
> Is it? Doing this really right is expensive (as in several dollars
> per unit, if not several tenth of dollars), getting it wrong is much
> cheaper and easier...
Dunno how many dollars it costs, but you can't sell an appliance that breaks
from being plugged in. People won't buy it.
>>> The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
>>>
>>> "Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
>>> better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
>>> run down completely before recharging."
>
> This indeed seems to indicate that they think they did get it right
> (and probably have). Either that, or they speculate on future
> batterie sales :-)
Newsflash! Psion enters extremely cutting-edge, immensely profitable and
untapped battery market ;-)
>>> As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break,
>>> send them in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if
>>> it's a tamagotchi you want, then get a tamagotchi.
>
> Batteries are usually excempt from guarantee, no?
The revo batteries are not accessible like in a walkman, and you can't
replace them yourself like in a mobile phone. They are an integrated part of
the device, like in a dustbuster. So the whole thing is guaranteed,
including the batteries and battery cable.
Erik Sandblom
tree...@winshop.com.au den 23-11-01 12.47:
> since my unit is way outside the warranty period, i bravely opened the shell
> and
> discovered that there is a flat "ribbon" or 'cable' that had an obvious
> discontinuity. this was sited exactly at the point of maximal
> flexion/extension
> that occurs with opening/closing the shell. the quote for the repair was 75%
> of the
> price of a new unit.
That sounds awful. If it has been established that the connector cable gets
brittle and breaks, you would think Psion would be a little generous about
repairing it. But they have ditched the PDA market so ...
> there was no attempt to offer a solution to the problem,
> just
> to reinstate the original production status. if one works on the basis that
> these
> units have therefore a life span of 18 months [admittedly i use mine
> frequently -
> probably a dozen openings/d on days i'm at work and 1-2/ d otherwise] , it
> makes
> the revo an expensive option to keep going.
Are you sure you didn't just have some bad luck? You might have had a bad
cable, or some combination of bad luck and bad circumstances for the cable.
> i think this clearly represents a design flaw and was surprised and
> disillusioned
> to find that this relatively simple problem isn't addressed definitively by
> psion
> repairers.
It looks like this might be a real problem, but I maintain that the problem
isn't as big as it may appear from following internet discussions. If, early
on, Psion had posted an announcement saying that "73% of revos being
repaired for battery problems have a problem with the cable, and the
symptoms are XYZ", I think most of the anxiety would have gone. People worry
less about a problem which is well-defined.
> am now wrestling with the options of reclaiming my wife's revo, and 'going
> over to
> the dark side' [ie palm or CE] etc
>
> it's not easy though because the revo is still essentially a fantastic product
> for
> my purposes and there's not an obvious alternative available.
I never thought my Revo and $99 mako would be so useful and reliable when I
bought the first Revo. Now that I know that, I'm ready to spend much more
money next time I see a similar product which fits my bill.
If your Revo has become part of your routine, I don't think you should feel
bad about spending some more money on it, and giving it another chance. It's
not like it makes you fat or causes cancer =)
Good Luck!
rueyloon
what you can actually do about it in another post, but there seems
to be no response to it ? can you guys see my post ?
since I'm in the "space parts" business, I can roughly guess which
parts are the guilty ones....., it fits to most description about Revo's
problems.
post attached here
-------------------------
hi, I think I may have finally gotten hold of 10, (only TEN) new charging
boards and new power cable for the revo. This new charging board is
supposed to correct revo's problematic charging.
I'm looking for people with problems with their revo.
do you think you're up to a DIY job ?
for this first 10, I'm going to sell them cheaper to see what's the response
like and
what's the result like. I don't use my revo very often, hence I can't judge
if it
really corrects the charging problem.
I'm emailing this earlier, I expect my order to arrive next week.
if you're willing to be a test subject, do email me, first 10 gets. it
price will prob. be 15USD, postage included.
I'll gather the names first, and I'll email you guys again when I have the
parts in my hands.
I have one condition, like I said, I really need people to test it out,
hence it would be best
if you're a heavy revo user with a charging problem.
This charging board works both for the revo+ and the revo.
If you have a series 5 with a screen cable problem, I do sell them on my
website too.
(My own suspicion is that this board is already included in the latest batch
of the revos+, but
the earlier ones are the ones with the charging problem.)
rgs
rueyloon
Erik Sandblom
ruey...@email.com den 23-11-01 15.51:
> hi guys, I've explained in another mail what't the problem and
> what you can actually do about it in another post, but there seems
> to be no response to it ? can you guys see my post ?
Not sure I saw that post, but I saw the one you put in below in this post
("post attached here"). But you haven't explained what the problem is as far
as I can see.
It's great of you to take this initiative. I hope many people can fix their
Revos. Mine work fine.
Alan Meyer
sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se wrote...
>
>Yeah, if you are simply putting batteries in a charger. An integrated
>product like a dustbuster or PDA isn't going to be like that. You can keep
>them plugged in because they have
>resistor-translator-activator-positronic-matrix-overload-modulated
>shielding.
By golly folks, he's right!
At first I thought, Nahh, not true resistor-translator-activator-
positronic-matrix-overload-modulated shielding. They're probably just
using the cheaper resistor-translator-activator-inductive-faraday-cage
-overload-shielding.
But then I opened the case and like, WOW, there it was. To test it, I
applied a framus boosted overvoltage at the one quarter phase amplitude
point and, sure enough, the positronic matrix began to glow and I could
actually see the excess electrons being diverted to ground through the
matrix.
Those Revo designers sure do know what they're doing.
Sven Utcke
> i artikel vd07ksh...@kogs12.informatik.uni-hamburg.de, skrev Sven Utcke
> på ut...@tu-harburg.de den 23-11-01 12.44:
> > Many manufacturers have. Rechargable Batteries usually do break due
> > to overcharging. In fact, most of what is nowadays called memory
> > effect is actually overcharging: you do not empty the batterie fully,
> > then put it into a charger which is mainly time-based. The charger
> > will then try to put to big a charge into the batterie. Do this 20
> > times, and the batterie is effectively dead (even though it should
> > have lasted a couple of hundred reloads).
>
> Yeah, if you are simply putting batteries in a charger. An
> integrated product like a dustbuster or PDA isn't going to be like
> that.
I think you are wrong. I do not know about the dustbuster (by Black &
Decker), but I have dismantled some of these devices made by other
manufacturers (usually in order to replace the broken batteries :-),
and I can assure you that _not_ _one_ of the devices I opened came
with a charger more intelligent than a voltage stabilisator, most not
even that. In fact, the only measure against overcharging I could
find was the use of lead-accid batteries in some of them :-)
> You can keep them plugged in because they have
> resistor-translator-activator-positronic-matrix-overload-modulated
> shielding.
What?
> >>>> It probably does, but why push it?
> >>>
> >>> Why take such a silly precaution? "I better not let this stay
> >>> plugged in, it might break." Ridiculous, it's an appliance, a
> >>> computer, not any old battery from Valu-Mart thrown into any old
> >>> charger from the Dollar Store.
> >
> > Is it? Doing this really right is expensive (as in several dollars
> > per unit, if not several tenth of dollars), getting it wrong is much
> > cheaper and easier...
>
> Dunno how many dollars it costs, but you can't sell an appliance
> that breaks from being plugged in. People won't buy it.
Again: are you sure? People who use the machine a lot will not notice
(as they normally drain the batteries close to empty, and only have it
plugged in over night, for 8 to 10 hours at most), and people who
hardly use it at all want notice either, since by the time they have
recharged 20 times they are going to discard the Revo anyway, buing
the then newest craze.
And it's not only money, but also size: if you want to be able to both
charge the batteries _and_ work when plugged in, then you can not
include the necessary electronic into the charger, but have to include
it into the device itself(*), which, with a device as small as the
revo, might be a considerable problem...
> >>> The text in manual can not be misunderstood. It says, on page 198:
> >>>
> >>> "Recharge you Revo regularly, keeping the battery 'topped-up'. You will get
> >>> better long term performance from the battery if you do not regularly let it
> >>> run down completely before recharging."
> >
> > This indeed seems to indicate that they think they did get it right
> > (and probably have). Either that, or they speculate on future
> > batterie sales :-)
>
> Newsflash! Psion enters extremely cutting-edge, immensely profitable and
> untapped battery market ;-)
It _is_ profitable when the batteries aren't standard size :-) Trust
somebody who needed to renew the battery for an IBM Thinkpad (which
contains a counter which will enable the use of a still perfect
battery after it has been charged so many times --- and yes, the
manual tells you to charge whenever possible. They do not tell you
that after N reloads you need to buy a new one :-(
> >>> As I have said before, follow the manual. If the batteries break,
> >>> send them in for repair. Screw the religious ceremonies, and if
> >>> it's a tamagotchi you want, then get a tamagotchi.
> >
> > Batteries are usually excempt from guarantee, no?
>
> The revo batteries are not accessible like in a walkman, and you
> can't replace them yourself like in a mobile phone. They are an
> integrated part of the device, like in a dustbuster. So the whole
> thing is guaranteed, including the batteries and battery cable.
I don't own a Revo, so I can't check. I'll take your word for it that
nowhere in the small print it said otherwise. You _did_ check, didn't
you?
Sven
(*) Ok, you could use a connector with at least three contacts...
rueyloon
1) power cable,
the old power cable sometimes lose connection easily, and
it also breaks (but rarely). It explains why some people have
faced sudden "death" problems with their psion. The 2nd batch
of psions that came out actually had the contact points
hot glued to try to prevent that problem.
2) charging board
the charging problem with the revo is well known
rgs
rueyloon
www.portal-pda.com
Erik Sandblom
på ut...@tu-harburg.de den 23-11-01 17.08:
> Erik Sandblom <sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se> writes:
>> Dunno how many dollars it costs, but you can't sell an appliance
>> that breaks from being plugged in. People won't buy it.
>
> Again: are you sure? People who use the machine a lot will not notice
> (as they normally drain the batteries close to empty, and only have it
> plugged in over night, for 8 to 10 hours at most), and people who
> hardly use it at all want notice either, since by the time they have
> recharged 20 times they are going to discard the Revo anyway, buing
> the then newest craze.
Well I use mine a lot, seldom let the batteries below half power (because I
don't need to), and leave it plugged in for days at a time. I have a revo
and a $99 Mako, which is a rebranded revoplus, so that's why one of them is
usually sitting in the charger.
I have a Pillips dustbuster -- or should I call it handheld vacuum cleaner?
-- and usually let the batteries die completely between charges as per
conventional wisdom. But then I leave it plugged in a few days at a time.
The batteries were replaced once, but since then I have simply gone back to
the same routine.
Once I had it plugged in for days, but the batteries still weren't charged.
I cursed it and plugged it in again for a few days, and then it was all
revved up! I guess the trans-positronic zorgatron must have modulated the
transmogrification array ;-)
Erik Sandblom
ruey...@email.com den 23-11-01 17.31:
> 2) charging board
> the charging problem with the revo is well known
Is this the problem which I keep saying doesn't exist? The one where you
have to break the charge at 85%, and which Clive Evans, formerly of Psion,
said not to do that?
Nick Triano
when doing doing some really heavy lifting ;-) like an Agenda alarm or
an IR transfer, but will stay on almost indefinitely when just
"sitting there". How can I fix this (if it's possible at all)?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Nick
"Marty S." <NewsGr...@realestate-consulting.com> wrote in message news:<5SbI7.37958$S4.33...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
rueyloon
there MUST be a problem. Else why would there exist
such a module ? :p
rgs
rueyloon
"Erik Sandblom" <sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se> wrote in message
news:B8243C0E.2B7F%sand...@artech.removethis.andthis.se...
Alan Meyer
wrote...
>
>OK- I only want to find out why my new Mako keeps shutting down at 86%
>when doing doing some really heavy lifting ;-) like an Agenda alarm or
>an IR transfer, but will stay on almost indefinitely when just
>"sitting there". How can I fix this (if it's possible at all)?
>
>Can anyone shed some light on this?
I notice that alarms stop working well before 0% power. On my Revo
they seem to stop at about 25% power. I also noticed that I can open
the case and find the unit does not appear to power up (I have it set
to turn on when the case is opened) and I see a blank screen. However
if I touch the screen at the point where the "clear" button would appear
on the alarm screen, it reads the touch and the Revo comes up.
I had a problem with a very early Revo where the unit kept shutting off
well before the expected end of battery charge. The problem would start
with the Revo shutting down when the charge indicator said 25% or so charge
remaining. Then it would shut down at 35%, and so on, until eventually
it just wouldn't turn on at all.
I sent it back twice for this problem. But it recurred each time. The
third time I sent it back the technician told me that the early Revos
had a corrosion problem on the power connector - presumably the same thing
discussed earlier in this thread and having to do with flexing of the cable
when opening and closing the case. He sent me a slightly later model Revo
which, for quite some time now, has been okay. Fingers crossed, I'm hoping
that that problem is behind me.
If you've got that problem, it will get worse soon, and you'll have to
send it back to Psion.
However it's possible you don't have that problem. It may just be that
your battery is not fully recharging even though the indicator lights
and percentage say that it is. I believe I had that problem once on my
replacement Revo. The symptom was that, after power loss shutdown, I'd
plug in the charger and see a report that the Revo had 40% power, even
though the system had just shut down for lack of power.
I surmised that it really had zero power and it was the indicator that was
wrong.
I solved it as follows:
Backup all data.
Plug in to wall current.
Hard reset (for superstitious reasons. May or may not have helped.)
Allow to recharge until indicator lights switched from red to green.
Disconnect and reconnect power - indicator back to red again.
Continue charging on red for about an hour - which is the time I
calculated to get a full charge. The percentage indicator showed
100% the whole time.
Disconnect and use normally.
It seemed to solve the problem. After the seeming overcharge, the battery
really did seem to go to 100%.
A possibly safer way to achieve the same effect might be to leave the Revo
charging on green after reaching 100%, but let it charge for an extra 24
hours or so. If, in fact, your Revo showed 100% when it was really only
at 40%, and if it charges on green at 3% per hour, then an extra 20 hours
after "100%" charge might really bring it to 100%.
I must warn you that, while this procedure worked for me, I don't know if
it will for you, don't know if you have the same problem I had, and don't
in fact know that it won't destroy your PDA. Use the method at your own
risk.
Good luck.
Alasdair Manson
wrote:
>well, since there exist this new charging module, hence
>there MUST be a problem. Else why would there exist
>such a module ? :p
cost-cutting?
not saying i know - just one possibility.
see you
ali
alan
due to reduced sales? Just 2 realistic options.
"rueyloon" <ruey...@email.com> wrote in message
news:9tnpnn$vb5$1...@newsie.singa.pore.net...
Erik Sandblom
ruey...@email.com den 24-11-01 10.20:
> well, since there exist this new charging module, hence
> there MUST be a problem. Else why would there exist
> such a module ? :p
To make room for the colour screen, bluetooth, memory update and
user-serviceable operating system upgrade =)
NB: Joke!
Erik Sandblom
på n...@mediaone.net den 24-11-01 02.26:
> OK- I only want to find out why my new Mako keeps shutting down at 86%
> when doing doing some really heavy lifting ;-) like an Agenda alarm or
> an IR transfer, but will stay on almost indefinitely when just
> "sitting there". How can I fix this (if it's possible at all)?
Have you tried a soft reset?
Tony Godfrey-Davies
http://www.portal-pda.com for a description of the Revo battery problems and
suggested resolutions
Hope it helps
Tony
"Alan Meyer" <ame...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9tombd$9k0$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...