Tungsten E and print recognition: what's your experience?

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John Faughnan

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Feb 25, 2004, 9:05:27 PM2/25/04
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I've been using a Tungsten E quite heavily for about 3 months.

I started out trying Jot/Graffiti 2, but I was frustrated by it. I
installed TealScript and made it as Graffiti 1 compliant as I could. I
use CIC WordComplete 3.03 and TealScript 3.22.

I'm disappointed in how pen based input is working. I had very good
results with native Graffiti on the Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Palm V and
Palm Vx.

I don't know if the problem is me (I'm older, not better), my Tungsten
E, or the absence of Graffiti 1. My suspicion is that it's a
combination of all 3, but primarily some inhomogeneity in the pressure
sensors on the Tungsten E and the absence of Graffiti 1. I really
think G1 was an amazing bit of intellectual property -- a very clever
approach to balancing the limitations of both machine and human. (I
know it was a commercial failure and that only a small minority of
Palm users ever did much data entry. It just happens I'm an extreme
Palm user. I'd have happily paid Xerox a $30 licensing fee in return
for the right to use Graffiti 1.)

I'd love to hear from other Palm experts who've moved to Graffiti 2 or
TealScript on the Tungsten E. Do you do as well or better than before?
If it turns out others are doing well with Graffiti 2 on the T|E I'll
make a serious effort at learning it (and give up on TealScript). If
the problem is the Tungsten E I might switch to another device. (And,
btw, happily switch back to the old conduits and the older internal
databases!)

john
jfau...@spamcop.net

meta: jfaughnan, jgfaughnan, handwriting, recognition, Palm, PalmOne,
grafitti, performance, digitizer, results, errors, design

Unknown

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Feb 25, 2004, 10:00:53 PM2/25/04
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jfau...@spamcop.net (John Faughnan) wrote:
>I'm disappointed in how pen based input is working. I had very good
>results with native Graffiti on the Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Palm V and
>Palm Vx.

Have you tried installing the G1 bits? There's a particular order you
have to do them in if you are hotsyncing, but that's what made my T3
barely worth keeping...

--
William Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com

Schmidt

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Feb 25, 2004, 10:53:15 PM2/25/04
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In article <5c0dbfb4.04022...@posting.google.com>,
jfau...@spamcop.net (John Faughnan) wrote:

> I'd love to hear from other Palm experts who've moved to Graffiti 2 or
> TealScript on the Tungsten E. Do you do as well or better than before?
> If it turns out others are doing well with Graffiti 2 on the T|E I'll
> make a serious effort at learning it (and give up on TealScript). If
> the problem is the Tungsten E I might switch to another device. (And,
> btw, happily switch back to the old conduits and the older internal
> databases!)

I liked Graffiti 1 on my Palm V. When I upgraded to a Tungsten E, I
preferred the Graffiti 2 method of entering uppercase as I found it
faster than Graffiti 1's requirement to first shift to upper case mode.

However I found entering the letters where Graffitti 2 now requires two
strokes to be problematic. I'd often end up with a 'k' when I wanted
'lc' or vice-versa. And I can't tell you how often I'd get double quotes
when I wanted 'tt'.

I bought CIC Jot2.04/WordComplete 3.03 for its Word Complete function.
But I'm currently using Jot's version of 't' which is kinda like an
upside '4' and Jot's version of 'k' which uses a single keystroke. But
it's taking a while for me to unlearn Graffiti 1's use of an upside-down
capital 'L' for 't', and a "<" for 'k'.

With regard to the Tungsten E digitizer, I ended up putting a piece of
ordinary transparent-type scotch tape over the digitizing area. It
dramatically changed the 'feel' of letter input. Originally the feel was
very much what you'd expect writing on glass: smooth. Of course any dirt
or imperfection on the glass was felt immediately and that ended up
distracting me. After I put the transparent-type scotch tape over the
digitizer, the 'feel' changed to that of a pencil on paper. I had to be
much more deliberate in entering letters because more effort was now
required, due to increased pen 'drag'. However my input accuracy
increased, so I'm happy with this tradeoff.

Finally, I turned on Jot's 'Show Ink' feature. I feel getting visual
feedback on how the strokes you are making are being 'received' by the
Palm is very important to allow you to increase your input accuracy.

All in all, I'm happy with Jot and the transparent-type scotch tape over
the input area. However the letter 'k' is still my weakest input
character, and I'd love to be able to enter it as "<" as I could under
Graffiti 1.

Jim Anderson

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Feb 26, 2004, 10:05:00 AM2/26/04
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On 25 Feb 2004 18:05:27 -0800, John Faughnan said...

Many users have installed Graffiti1 on their T|E;
<http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5830>
PalmInfocenter.com Howto Replace Graffiti 2 with Original Graffiti.
Works great on my T|3.

--
Just trying to help. Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To e-mail me, just pull 'my_finger'

Alan

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Feb 26, 2004, 1:47:09 PM2/26/04
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I found that enabling the "write anywhere on screen" feature, along with
"show pen strokes", and then not using the graffitti area, solves the
problem.


"John Faughnan" <jfau...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:5c0dbfb4.04022...@posting.google.com...

Oforie Murray

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Feb 26, 2004, 2:00:32 PM2/26/04
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I have been struggling with G2 also (G1 user since Palm III) and for me the
biggest difference is that G1 was all about the strokes, and G2 is all about
the location of the strokes. For the 2 strokes characters it is very
important that they are right on top of each other, and for the infamous 2
stroke T, getting use to overlapping them to make a T and not overlapping to
make a L and space is just hard to do when you are a fast G1 writer. It
really takes some serious relearning to get used to scooting back and forth
across the Silkscreen area, and making sure all my strokes are large and not
slanted. G2 is not as forgiving with small G characters, and slanted G
characters as G1.


Doug Hoffman

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Feb 26, 2004, 5:14:49 PM2/26/04
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John Faughnan wrote:

For me Tealscript is superior to G1 or G2. But to make it so I had to
delete a lot of the default TS strokes so that just the strokes I use are
recognized. And you can "tune" it which you can't easily do with G1. I
like, for example, the single stroke X (top left to bottom right). It takes
a little work at the outset, but I think TS is about as good as it gets. At
least that's been my experience. I use a T|E and also use the Scotch 811
removable tape over the Graffiti writing area.

Regards,

-Doug

Arthur Hagen

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Feb 26, 2004, 10:44:33 PM2/26/04
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John Faughnan <jfau...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> I've been using a Tungsten E quite heavily for about 3 months.
>
> I started out trying Jot/Graffiti 2, but I was frustrated by it. I
> installed TealScript and made it as Graffiti 1 compliant as I could. I
> use CIC WordComplete 3.03 and TealScript 3.22.
[chop]

> I don't know if the problem is me (I'm older, not better), my Tungsten
> E, or the absence of Graffiti 1. My suspicion is that it's a
> combination of all 3, but primarily some inhomogeneity in the pressure
> sensors on the Tungsten E and the absence of Graffiti 1.

If you create a new profile in TealScript based on the defaults, allow
alternate strokes and disable multi-strokes, it's so close to Graffiti that
you have to be Danish or Norwegian to notice the difference (TealPoint
goofed the ø/Ø letter). The very few differences from normal Graffiti are
easily corrected too.

Regards,
--
*Art

John Faughnan

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Feb 26, 2004, 11:30:45 PM2/26/04
to
jfau...@spamcop.net (John Faughnan) wrote in message news:<5c0dbfb4.04022...@posting.google.com>...

> I've been using a Tungsten E quite heavily for about 3 months.
> I started out trying Jot/Graffiti 2, but I was frustrated by it. I
> installed TealScript and made it as Graffiti 1 compliant as I could. I
> use CIC WordComplete 3.03 and TealScript 3.22.
> I'm disappointed in how pen based input is working. I had very good
> results with native Graffiti on the Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Palm V and
> Palm Vx.

I received several good replies to the above. Most G1 users really
miss it, but there was a strong TealScript vote with the caveat that
one must delete all but the strokes one uses. I haven't done as well
with TS but I'll try deleting more strokes.

I also try installing G1 intead of G2, and put the scotch tape 811
back on (I used to use it but had switched to a screen cover which
might be too thick).

I don't want to do full screen because I'd like to protect the screen.

Thanks!

john

PS. I really think Palm should have made G1 available for an extra fee
and paid Xerox their blood money.

John Faughnan

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Feb 27, 2004, 1:04:23 PM2/27/04
to
Doug Hoffman <dhof...@journey.com> wrote in message news:<BC63DA28.3221%dhof...@journey.com>...

> For me Tealscript is superior to G1 or G2. But to make it so I had to
> delete a lot of the default TS strokes so that just the strokes I use are
> recognized. And you can "tune" it which you can't easily do with G1. I
> like, for example, the single stroke X (top left to bottom right). It takes
> a little work at the outset, but I think TS is about as good as it gets. At
> least that's been my experience. I use a T|E and also use the Scotch 811
> removable tape over the Graffiti writing area.

Doug,

I'm now emulating the advice that you and Arthur Hagen advanced. I did
look into installing G1 on my T|E but it I don't have acccess to an OS
5 device.

Instead I went through TealScript and ruthlessly deleted all the
variable strokes from my personal profile. The only strokes allowed
are now the ones I use -- the advanced high speed but often
undocumented G1 strokes documented in Pogue's O'Reilly books. I
defined all of my strokes as "standard".

I also deleted many of the "distorted" strokes.

Once I'd paired down the base strokes, I used TealScripts "train
profile" exercise from different angles to create a library of
distorted variants of my base strokes.

I think I could further refine this by tweaking the TealScript squelch
and cutoff settings. Shockingly the best advice I could find seems to
be in the manual [1].

Based on the manual I have set Squelch and Cutoff to 0 for all of my
"standard" strokes. If one of my standard strokes is being applied
when I don't want it, then

- if it's a simple stroke I'll boost squelch
- if the misapplied strokes is not simple I'll boost cutoff - esp. if
it's distort mismatch

For my distort entries I'll experiment with setting cutoff to 5-15%

I'll report back on how this does.

I also switched from the full screen cover to the satin tape cover on
the writing area -- I'd used that for years on my other Palms.

Thanks everyone!!!

john
jfau...@spamcop.net

[1] http://www.tealpoint.com/tealscrp/files/scrpdoc.htm

Squelch
The squelch value allows you to de-emphasize the current entry,...A
higher squelch value makes the match values look worse than it is,
deemphasizing the stroke overall.
This value can compensate for the fact that simpler strokes with few
angles are generally easier to enter and match than more complex ones,
and would ordinarily mistakenly "match" more complex characters when
they are incompletely formed.
Though not often used, you can keep a stroke from being falsely
detected by increasing the squelch value.

Cutoff
The cutoff sets a "minimum match" percentage for this stroke...

In practice, a cutoff value has proven generally more effective in
preventing a particular entry from being falsely detected than the
squelch value.
Cutoff values are commonly used when creating "distort" entries which
are similar in shape to other letters. Setting a high cutoff keeps the
entry from interfering with other entries, coming into effect only
when an entered stroke matches almost exactly.

meta: jfaughnan, jgfaughnan, Palm, PalmOne, Grafitti, Graffiti,
handwriting recognition, print recognition, Xerox, G1, G2, Jot,
Graffiti 2, Graffiti Two, licensing, configure, utility, Tungsten E,
TE, T|E, T/E, Tungsten/E, fix, patch

Doug Hoffman

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Feb 27, 2004, 5:18:08 PM2/27/04
to
Thanks for the feedback, John.

I feel that, once you spend a little up front time customizing and tuning
it, TealScript is marvelous. My character recognition rate is very high and
I can input fast. I've no connection with Teal, I'm just a very satisfied
customer.

Regards,

-Doug

John Faughnan

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Feb 27, 2004, 8:22:31 PM2/27/04
to
On 2004-02-27 16:36:28 -0600, Alien at Large <not...@notnow.com> said:
>
> |I'm now emulating the advice that you and Arthur Hagen advanced. I did
> |look into installing G1 on my T|E but it I don't have acccess to an OS
> |5 device.
>
> OS 5 device? you mean OS 4.1 device, yes?
> http://www.zansstuff.com/palm.html
> will get you the files and the info to install

Great link, yes I downloaded the files from there. They come with much
more comprehensive discussions than I'd seen elsewhere.

Since I own TealScript, and since it's working MUCH better since I
followed the advice provided here, I'll probably stick with it.

Nice to have an alternative though!
---
John
jfau...@spamcop.net
www.faughnan.com

PS. I'm even legal as I have a few dead Vx's lying around, so I've got
license to use this stuff.

meta: jfaughnan, jgfaughnan

Doug Hoffman

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Feb 28, 2004, 4:42:57 AM2/28/04
to
Alien at Large wrote:

> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:18:08 GMT

> X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 1077920288 207.241.134.141 (Fri, 27 Feb
> 2004 17:18:08 EST)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:18:08 EST

>
> X-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:59:05 EST
>
> why did you change your pc time to post this in the past

1) Why do you ask? i.e., What makes you think this?

2) I changed *nothing*.

-Doug


> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:18:08 GMT, Doug Hoffman <dhof...@journey.com>
> wrote:

John Faughnan

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Feb 28, 2004, 12:52:31 PM2/28/04
to
Doug Hoffman <dhof...@journey.com> wrote in message news:<BC652C72.32BA%dhof...@journey.com>...

> I feel that, once you spend a little up front time customizing and tuning
> it, TealScript is marvelous. My character recognition rate is very high and
> I can input fast.

I can also report that after following the procedure I outlined (see
below) TealScript is working VERY well for me. I've paired it down to
one set of Graffiti One strokes (NO alternate strokes, only DISTORT
strokes with cutoffs and squelch as needed esp. for simpler strokes)
and now it's at least as good as Graffiti One standard was.

Great result.

Thanks!

john

> > Instead I went through TealScript and ruthlessly deleted all the
> > variable strokes from my personal profile. The only strokes allowed
> > are now the ones I use -- the advanced high speed but often
> > undocumented G1 strokes documented in Pogue's O'Reilly books. I
> > defined all of my strokes as "standard".
> >
> > I also deleted many of the "distorted" strokes.
> >
> > Once I'd paired down the base strokes, I used TealScripts "train
> > profile" exercise from different angles to create a library of
> > distorted variants of my base strokes.
> >
> > I think I could further refine this by tweaking the TealScript squelch
> > and cutoff settings. Shockingly the best advice I could find seems to
> > be in the manual [1].
> >
> > Based on the manual I have set Squelch and Cutoff to 0 for all of my
> > "standard" strokes. If one of my standard strokes is being applied
> > when I don't want it, then
> >
> > - if it's a simple stroke I'll boost squelch
> > - if the misapplied strokes is not simple I'll boost cutoff - esp. if
> > it's distort mismatch
> >
> > For my distort entries I'll experiment with setting cutoff to 5-15%
> >
> > I'll report back on how this does.
> >
> > I also switched from the full screen cover to the satin tape cover on
> > the writing area -- I'd used that for years on my other Palms.

> > [1] http://www.tealpoint.com/tealscrp/files/scrpdoc.htm

Doug Hoffman

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Feb 28, 2004, 3:46:07 PM2/28/04
to
Alien at Large wrote:

> I found it odd that the post should take 51 minutes to come thru yet
> this post take but a 3 and a half minutes, it usually indicates that
> people are playing with the clock in order to make their post appear
> chronologically sooner than it actually did. If you didn't then don't
> sweat it, I was just curious

OK. No sweat on this end I can assure. And I've certainly no reason/time
to play games with the clock. Although I agree it is curious. May be
related to substandard usenet service from my ISP. I've had a lot of
problems there.

Regards,

-Doug

zoara

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Feb 29, 2004, 2:24:34 PM2/29/04
to
John Faughnan <jfau...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> jfau...@spamcop.net (John Faughnan) wrote


> > I've been using a Tungsten E quite heavily for about 3 months.
> > I started out trying Jot/Graffiti 2, but I was frustrated by it. I
> > installed TealScript and made it as Graffiti 1 compliant as I could. I
> > use CIC WordComplete 3.03 and TealScript 3.22.
> > I'm disappointed in how pen based input is working. I had very good
> > results with native Graffiti on the Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Palm V and
> > Palm Vx.
>
> I received several good replies to the above. Most G1 users really
> miss it, but there was a strong TealScript vote with the caveat that
> one must delete all but the strokes one uses. I haven't done as well
> with TS but I'll try deleting more strokes.
>
> I also try installing G1 intead of G2, and put the scotch tape 811
> back on (I used to use it but had switched to a screen cover which
> might be too thick).

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet - and I only mention it as a
possibility - is that your digitiser could be screwed. I've now had two
Tungsten E's 'go bad' on me; they work to start with, then degrade over
time. Full disclosure; I installed G1 almost straight away.

The effect seems to be worst in the bottom left and the top right - try
going into note pad and drawing little circles; if those areas give less
accurate circles than the rest of the screen then this could be your
problem.

> PS. I really think Palm should have made G1 available for an extra fee
> and paid Xerox their blood money.

Me too.

-z-


--
eh?

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