The NeXTdimension Compendium, PART I
Steven C Weintz
1.0 Starters
This is a VERY large document; so large, I've posted it in 3 parts. I
realize this can be an imposition of sorts on many readers. I could have
simply summarized people's comments, and left out the NeXTanswers.
However, I felt that it was important to present the original discussion
in a straightforward way, so there would be little chance of my distorting
someone's commentary or explanation. Also, I think that readers will enjoy
the lively give-and-take that is such a hallmark of electronic
correspondence. Those readers interested in the topic who take the trouble
to download this beast, will, I hope, not have to download the relevant
NeXTanswers for a follow-up. It's my hope that the NeXT community will
find this effort of value. I am responsible for my own opinions and any
errors of editing.
One thing is missing; my own e-mail! I forgot to save it all and I suspect
our sysadmin long ago vaporized it. I hope you get enough of the
discussion from my correspondents.
If you like what I've done, please let me know. (If you don't, let me know
that, too, but be reasonable.) I may be willing to update this thing from
time to time and upload it to an archive site. I'd also like to see some
kind of depository or watering hole where ND users can share custom
software, tips and tricks. let's see if we can't put something like this
together.
1.1 Table of Contents
There's a lot here, so I've tried to organize it in some logical way.
PART I
1.0 Starters
1.1 Table of Contents
1.2 Preface
1.3 Editing conventions used
1.4 Credits
1.5 My original post
2.0 Debating NeXTdimensions vs. Intels (and SGI's)
2.1 Basic info
2.2 Cons
2.3 Pros
2.4 The Crux of the Biscuit
PART II
3.0 More Power! Brian Willoughby's ND Turbo summary
4.0 Tips culled from the Net
4.1 Two-headed ND's (contains several posts)
4.2 ND booting problem and fix under 3.1
4.3 ND Slots
4.4 ND memory check
4.5 Video.App bugfix
PART III
5.0 NeXTdimension Lore [5.2, 5.3 not available yet - see note]
5.1 What happened to the C-Cube chip
5.2 Dick Phillips, MediaView, and the ND
5.3 NeXTWORLD's pre-production review of the ND
6.0 NeXTanswers about NeXTdimensions
5.1 1036 NeXTdimension Software
5.2 1037 NeXTdimension Upgrades
5.3 1052 NeXTdimension Configuration
5.4 1065 NeXTdimension demos
5.5 A NeXT FAQ fragment about ND's: color, memory
1.2 Preface
This project began as a personal quest. I came under the NeXT spell last
semester and resolved to have my own machine. Though a grad student, I
have some resources that I was willing to invest in top-of-the-line tools
for the brave new multimedia world that is upon us. I was able to attend
the NeXTWORLD Expo, and have become a regular reader and participant in
the c.s.n.* newsgroups. It remained to determine the hardware and software
I needed to get. To begin with, I dreamed of a NeXTdimension and made
plans for a loaded Intel system. Then I began negotiations for a Turbo
NeXTdimension and in the process solicited advice from many quarters.
Along the way I collected a body of useful information about the
NeXTdimensions and their software that I felt ought to be assembled in one
place. I carried on long and lively conversations with several people who
graciously shared their thoughts and experience with me, and have agreed
to allow their correspondence to become public. The debate swirled around
the pros and cons of the NeXTdimension vs. the new PC's. In its essence:
the black hardware remains unrivaled in many respects, but was never
properly supported and is ultimately obsolete. The white hardware is much
more open, possibly cheaper, and will probably be MUCH faster. But at the
moment it has too many kinks and its promise is as yet unfulfilled. I have
every confidence that NeXTSTEP will be a great success on the Intel
platform, and will really shine on more powerful architectures. But I'm
impatient. So...I'm buying that Turbo NeXTdimension. I'm also a romantic.
I think maybe most NeXT people are...
1.3 Editing conventions used
I pruned the following materials in a variety of ways for a variety of
reasons. So that as many people as possible can access this document, it's
in ASCII format, and so the cool graphics from the NeXTanswers material
aren't there. Please consult the originals if you want them ("call
numbers" are in the TOC). Often I removed material from the e-mail that
was either personal or not germane to the topic. These are indicated by
ellipses (...). All material added by me is enclosed by brackets ([ ]). I
don't want to publicly discuss my financial negotiations, so all
references to prices have been deleted. Correspondents at NeXT have been
made anonymous, to keep them from being deluged with e-mail while they're
working on our favorite OS :-).
1.4 Credits:
I had the gracious and thoughtful help from quite a number of people, and
availed myself of NeXTanswers.
Many, many thanks to the following (I literally couldn't have done it
without you!):
Lance Charlish (la...@insight.com)
Howard R. Cole (hc...@tumbleweed.idec.sdl.usu.edu)
Alex Currier(myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Detlev Droege (dro...@infko.uni-koblenz.de)
George Fankhauser (geo...@nice.usergroup.ethz.ch)
Robert Fischer <fis...@fokus.gmd.de>
Brian L Gottlieb <br...@arl1.wustl.edu>
Nathan F. Janette (nat...@laplace.csb.yale.edu)
Gene W Homicki (g...@cs.mcgill.ca)
Simon F C Harwood (sf...@dmu.ac.uk)
Eric de La Tribouille (eri...@cs.uiuc.edu)
Borre Ludvigsen (bor...@ludvigsen.dhhalden.no)
Phillip MacDonough (phi...@utstat.toronto.edu)
Dan Marusich (ma...@pri.com)
Jeff Nicholson-Owens (je...@uiuc.edu)
Blake Stone (bst...@acs.ucalgary.ca)
Marcel Waldvogel (Marcel.W...@nice.usergroup.ethz.ch)
Brian Willoughby (Bri...@SoundS.WA.com)
a NeXT employee who will remain anonymous
NeXTanswers On Line Technical Documentation (1036, 1037, 1052, 1065)
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1.5 My original post:
From: scwg...@ih-nxt01.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven C Weintz)
Subject: Wanted: informed comments on NeXTDimensions
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1993 00:45:00 GMT
I'd like to hear from people who own and use (or have owned and used) the
NeXTDimension cubes for serious graphic work. I want to use maximum
graphics software and hardware for archaeological illustration and
presentation, and I love NeXTSTEP. Caveats and applause are both welcomed.
On the downside, I'm aware of the C-Cube controversy but I'd like to know
of any other little hiccups and shortcomings. On the upside, I understand
that it will be some time before Intel-based hardware can measure up to
the ND's performance. If you're selling your ND, what sort of systems are
you considering (or have purchased) as a replacement/upgrade? If you're
hanging on to one, what is your rationale? Would I blow as much if not
more cash on a fully pumped Intel box as on a used ND? Please e-mail your
comments to me, and, if there's enough general interest, I'll post a
summary.
Thanks!
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2.0 Responses
2.1 Basic Info
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[Dan Marusich, the art director for Pinnacle Research, Inc., loves his ND
and said so in his first message to me:]
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 01:48:19 MST
From: maru (To: in...@uiuc.edu)
Subject: ND, or not to ND? That is the question.
Steven,
I use a NeXT Dimension to do free-lance graphic design for a few
companies but in particular I am the Art Director for PINNACLE Research, a
NEXTSTEP developer. The quality of images on the ND quickly stands above
anything currently available in an Intel machine. Possibly in the future
when PA-RISC and Pentium Systems are available, there will be a 32-bit
system to surpass the ND's capabilities. What I like is the ability to do
video grabs to create still images for video presentations or quick design
ideas. There are some problems associated with the PostScript
ImageOperator that on occaision can cause some interesting
problems(especially when running on two screens as I do.)
If you could find a reasonably priced ND I'd say jump on it. One thing to
consider is the amount of memory and storage you will have available. The
ND board comes with 4mb of VRAM and can hold up to 32 megs for display
memory(having all 32-megs radically speeds up performace over 16-less
swapping in of 32-bit windows) Again the more memory on the Cube's board
(upto 64mb, or 128mb in TurboCubes). I wish I had a bit more memory here
to handle running several apps.
I'm not sure what sort of archaeological illustration and
presentation you had in mind but an ND paired with the right software ( I
use our own WetPaint for image editing, Adobe illustrator for
tech-illustrations, Virtuoso-for flashier stuff, Paste-Up -for longer
items and piecing things together, Concurrence - for creating
video-slideshows, and a modified Video.app supplied in the developer
examples.
If you have more questions, or would like to talk about your projects I'd
be interested to help.
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He responded to my next question, regarding available software and
comparison of platforms, with this:]
From: ma...@pri.com (Dan Marusich)
Date: [I think an early July date]
Steve,
The same software ships with all copies of NEXTSTEP the difference being
whether or not the hardware will run it.
NeXT TV
is a Next developer demo written by Kieth Olfs, it lives up to its name by
working very much like a real TV(it even uses the annoying primary
green/red screen controls). What NeXT TV is useful for, is watching TV
(or a movie - i.e Blade Runner- 1st thing I did) It also allows you to
output things via the ND's ports.
ScreenScape
Possibly the most useful developer demo for creating video work.
Basically, ScreenScape outputs a video sized chunk of the screen to the
ND's 3 out ports. I've used this for presentations and demos, because it
allows you to lock the area in place, say over a WetPaint document or a
Concurrence window and record things.
Video.app & the video class
this is part of the developer demos to show you how to use the Video
class. You compile the program yourself, and can make minor changes
easily (I have) You should look at the documentation for the Video Class,
it is very straight forward.
[see Section 4.0 - NeXTanswers 1065 (NeXTdimension Demos) - for more info]
NextTime is very cool, you should be able to output anything from it using
ScreenScape, if not a NextTime authoring app. (Did you see us at Expo?)
For NEXTSTEP-INTEL there is a product that d'art was showing called the
ScreenMachine II, it is essentially the same thing as a PC/Mac product
available from another german company(Fast GmbH) send mail to s...@dart.de,
I also believe that Alembic is working with them. This board is
supposedly very similar to the ND as far as still capture and things are
concerned.
[Screen machine II is indeed a fine piece of equipment, and can do some
things the ND can't: record short video clips, apply video effects, .
However, it does not allow video output and only supports 16-bit color.]
[...]
Photo CD is cool, the 3.1 app will feed a base resolution version of an
image to any basically any .app
5.) Look for a system you can use, I really am happy with my ND
regardless of who calls it obsolete. This isn't to say I don't have my
eye on a PA-RISC. Pentium, or Power architecture machine. It sounds like
you're looking for workstation level tools, Mac's do and don't have some
cool tools ( I worked on a IIci for more than a year at an old design
job). An Intel box with cards is nice because there will be more cards
available to take advantage of NextTime, MPEG and other media based
tools. The addition of custom tools is always a nice option, and is easier
on Nextstep, but I really don't think you need that. It sounds like you
need this software.
A real CAD program: to design accurate floor plan based dig sites
An Illustration program : for Maps, flashy print graphics and less
precise diagrams.
An image editor: WetPaint is excellent (Had to plug it, but it is)
A presentation program: i.e Concurrence
A RenderMan front end (Frontface or Intuitiv)
An Animator 2d or 3d or both
If the black hardware is a good deal jump on it, if not start pricing some
fast '486 boxes. I'd guess that a white hardware system would be at least
$7000 for a fast machine with Decent capacity. You can't buy a system to
last forever so make sure to get components and software that will travel
with you to that 200mips laptop (ah that's the dream)
good luck!
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[Lance Charlish and I discussed the system I'm going to purchase, and he
answered some of my questions.]
From: la...@insight.com (Lance Charlish)
Received:Tue, 27 Jul 93 11:09:15 -0700
>Do the 100ns SIMMS have a noticeable impact on performance? Do you >have
a >recommended source for SIMMS (when they rebuild that >factory!) Will it
be >possible or desirable to install 32MB SIMMS on >the ND board?
As far as the ND board goes, there does not seem to be any speed gain by
using SIMMS that are faster than 100 ns. Of course you can always use
faster SIMMS, but I believe that the SIMMS will actually run at the 100 ns
speed. I could be wrong about this. Only the one meg SIMMS are 100 ns
SIMMS and should probably be the first to be replaced. [...] (the SIMMS
are used in Macintosh's latest line of printers) [...].
The largest SIMMS that NeXT specified for the NeXTdimension board are 4 MB
simms. I have heard that 8 MB SIMMS work just fine as well. I cannot
think of why you would want more than 64 MB of RAM on the NeXTdimension
board. The ND's RAM primary function is to store the screen image, which,
mind you, is huge: Over 1,000,000 pixels X 32 bits per pixel = 32 MB of
Data on screen. A good question to ask would be whether or not the ND has
any use for anything more than 32 MB of RAM? There is at least one reason
to believe that the answer is yes. One of the ways that NeXT windows move
around the screen so quickly and remain "drawn" while they are moving is
that the window server buffers all the windows in memory. This means that
the screen could possibly have more than 32 MB of the screen in the memory
at one time. I do not know though, whether the window buffers are kept on
the ND board itself or if they are kept on the system board.
[...]
>Tim Griswold at Dancing Bear Enterprises has told me that the Turbo
Cube's >motherboard won't hold the 32MB SIMMS (too tall). After my friend
Jeff >Nicholson-Owens gave me a tour of the inside of his Cube, we decided
that this >should not be a problem if we could get longer ribbon
connectors from the >board to the drives and move the board over one slot.
Is this feasible/a good >idea?
I believe that there is a way to change the motherboard backplane slot #.
I'll look into it. I thought that 32 MB SIMMS did fit. You might want to
check into this more.
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2.2 Cons
[Many responses favored the new intel hardware over the ND.]
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[later, Dan Marusich had second thoughts about my planned purchase...]
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 03:05:17 -0700
From: Dan Marusich <ma...@pri.com>
[...]
For 6 or 7k you should be able to get a good 16bit color Intel box, the
question is what is the cost of something like the Screen Machine II or a
Video Grinder, they may save you some money for more peripherals and
software. The ND's video is really cool, but after thinking about the
nearly $[lot of money] I think you should really look at a fast 486, a few
more mips for some Maps or 3d work may be worth it, 32 bit color is nice
but only neccesary if you are doing something that has to be photographic
quality. I do know that NeXT is working to address the 32-bit question in
cards from Tseng labs and other sources.
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[this sentiment was echoed by several respondants:]
From: [name and address deleted]
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 09:11:47 -0700
Steve,
[name deleted] forwarded me your question (I do graphics support).
Our engineers are usually not available to the public (given their already
hectic schedules!) and the usual support channel is the ask_...@next.com
e-mail alias (although, as you might have guessed, this costs money).
Your question would be a great one to post to usenet, if you have
access to comp.sys.programmer. However, my personal answer would be to go
with the Pentium machine. It runs graphics faster than the ND and is more
flexible (there will be video capture boards available by the end of the
year). You will also have the option of running PC software if you need
to.
[My question was along the lines of, "Is there a chance NeXT will improve
NeXTdimension performance in future software upgrades, as the printer
performance was increased (PS1 -> PS2)?"]
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From: phi...@utstat.toronto.edu [Phillip MacDonough]
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 00:41 EDT
[...]
Well I have been dreaming of a ND for 3 years. But at this point I would
stay away, and I guess the thing to do would be to get a cheap clone with
12-16 bit graphics. I wouldn't buy a brand name NeXT PC. PC's are bad
enough
without having to endure crazy prices for what you can get for 1/2 without
the name. For years I only bought brand name PC's, and now see that it was
a
waste.
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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 19:45:12 -0500
From: myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex)
Subject: Re: re: Indy??
I already have half of a NeXTdimension setup (everything except the
Dimension board and color monitor) and I have been considering options
between that and one of the new AV macintosh systems. Basically the way I
see it it's going to be a matter of speed. The SGI machine, even the
"Speilberg starter kit" stripped down model, is going to flat out stomp
the
NeXT or Mac in terms of graphics performance. I could add multichannel
digital audio and 32bit graphics to my Cube but if I'm going to be
spending
the money why not go for the SGI? It's what the pros use and some day I
hope to be able to afford an Onyx... might as well start with SGI now that
I have that chance.
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[My good friend Eric de la Tribouille, an ND owner, felt strongly about
the matter:]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 12:56:27 -0500
From: Eric de_la_Tribouille <eri...@marula.cs.uiuc.edu>
[...]
hum... again, you might be disappointed... you should really be careful.
The problem with the NEXTDimension is that they (NeXT) had a very serious
problem with the managment of the swap file. When it's swapping, the
performance begins to decrease very fast, especially when you visualise
images.
Again, you should be careful. How much will you pay for this config ???
If you decide to buy it, there are some solutions to optimise the
performance:
- you need to have 32 Mb on the NeXT Dimension board.
- you need to have a second Hard Drive specialised to manage the
Swap !!! You might find a 100Mb HD at a good price, but you must have a
great performance (<10ms).
Then, it should be better.
About the Sphere which was not represented as a sphere under i3d
[Intuitiv'3D], it was because of the NeXTDimension. It seems to don't do
that anymore when the NeXTDimension as a lot of memory... but it's very
strange !
[When Eric and I loaded some JPEG images into his ND, it indeed ran very
slowly]
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93
From: Eric de_la_Tribouille <eri...@marula.cs.uiuc.edu>
[...]
To come back to your [purchase]... I really think that with $[lot of
money] you could have a really really hot PC : Just take a look at the ALR
Pentium Evolution VQ. Ask them to put the Wingine card from epson (locabus
graphic card). It's the fastest available graphic card supporting NEXTSTEP
actually. It enable a resolution of 1280*1024 (the highest resolution).
Ask then a configuration with a hot 17" color monitor that would support
this large resolution (ask then the price for a 21" monitor also). And you
will see that you'll have something really more powerfull that the ND !!!
The problem with the ND is the way the memory is manage... there is a
strong bug somewhere that will never change... because the ND card has
it's own server that NeXT will never improve. You must understand that...
I really think that you will regret this choice... like all the owner of a
ND I've meet !!!
Really, for $[lot of money], you would be able to buy this ALR... and it
would give you more than satisfaction ! You'll be able to evoluate... when
you'll not be able to do it with the ND !
Think again ! A ND is good only for 45 minutes... after that, you have to
save your work... to power off it... and to restart !
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2.3 Pros
[Those who liked their ND's (Lance, Brian) or had looked into them (Jeff),
had very different comments.]
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From: la...@insight.com (Lance Charlish)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 14:53:16 -0700
Steve,
I have never heard of this memory management problem and I certainly have
NEVER experienced it. I have never had to reboot the ND because of
swapfile problems, never.
[...]
As to the relative value of the two machines, everyone has their own
opinions. But the fact remains that the only 24/32 bit color computer
that runs NEXTSTEP presently and in the near future (my guess is at least
a year) is the ND. Not to mention that getting video in and out of the
ALR might be rather difficult. BTW, what is the bitblast rate on the
video on the ALR machine? And will NeXT support the resolution standard
(1280*1024) that he quotes? The Dell DGX/2 JAWS machine that we have in
our office is capable of 1280*1024, but NeXT does not support that
resolution. Remember that processor speed is only part of the
performance equation - video speed is critical (e.g. I saw some tests in
PC World that compared a Pentium machine with a standard SVGA video
adapter with a 486 machine that had local bus accelerated video and the
486 was faster in all the tests being done (Windows was the operating
system).
So, to summarize:
1) Not all ND owners regret their purchase - we all miss the C-Cube
compression chip, but lots of us love the machine.
2) I have never had any swapfile related problems with the ND. It could
be that the machine that he was familiar with might have been seriously
memory starved. "[...]" is not memory starved.
3) Watch out for the evolution arguments - if the computer that is on your
desk can't do what you want, then you have problem. If it can do what you
want, then you ought to be a happy man, IMHO.
4) My guess is that the relative costs of the machines, if made truly
comparable, might not be quite as equal as it is represented by your
friend.
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 17:32:02 -0500
From: J.B. Nicholson-Owens <je...@owens.slip.uiuc.edu>
I can see Eric's points on how the Intel is what the future of NeXT is
(since they don't make their own hardware anymore) but I really don't
think that just because it's the latest it's also the greatest. I
illustrate why I think the ND is better for video and high palette
problems below.
>According to him, there is a fatal flaw in the ND's window server - 45
minutes >and the swapfile's full, and only a reboot wil cure it!
I can't say I'm familiar with this problem specifically on ND systems. I
understand (and have experienced) filling up the swapfile and crashing,
but that is something that I've experienced on every NS system. What I'd
like to know is the complete configuration of this troublesome ND system.
You said it had 8M RAM (is this ND RAM or system RAM or both?), but how
much swap space? If it's got a low amount of swap space with only 8M RAM,
it will fill up quickly (like I said before, shuffling 24+8-bit images
around is not particularly a low-RAM or low-HD thing to do.
As an example of what I feel to be a good swapfile for doing UNIX stuff
(terminal windows open, reading lots of news and mail, irc, long
scrollbacks in each of the term windows, etc.) I think 80M swap is good
(which is what I've got the other 25M is saved for my /tmp drive). For
images, I fill up my 80M pretty quickly. Showing about 12 large (1k x 1k
or larger) images really makes my system slow down if not crash because it
can't swap out.
Part of the problem is that NS' swap cannot free data from anyplace but
the tail of the swapfile. If you start up any swap-hungry application,
start up some other application that swaps even the littlest bit, quit the
swap-hungry app and continue working in the little-swap app, the swapfile
is still going to be just as large as if you had let the swap-hungry app
sit there and do nothing. The swap device needs fixing. The other part
of the problem is that it's simply too much data to swap out. Just
because I'm loading up 12 large JPEG images that don't come to 80M when I
do an ls -l command, that doesn't mean they won't swap out 80M or more.
After all, JPEG is a compressed format, so when you see a 10K JPEG file,
it's probably something around 30K or more graphic data.
For this problem I'd recommend more RAM. To answer the question "How much
RAM, Jeff?" I offer this from the 1993 Winter NeXTanswers file color.802:
Neither the DRAM nor the VRAM on the NeXTdimension can be memory mapped by
the application. When it becomes necessary, the i860 pages to disk via
the host 68040 it does not write directly to disk itself.
Whether you increase memory on the 68040 or the NeXTdimension depends upon
how you plan to use the system. In general we recommend that you keep
them fairly balanced. If you are going to be keeping lots of windows on
the ND system then we suggest that you keep the memory on the i860
somewhat ahead. The less paging you do the better. You cannot extend the
VRAM [video ram] on the NeXTdimension.
I add that it is impossible to keep them balanced forever even on the
non-turbo cubes, as the Dimension can hold less RAM than the cube can.
Since the ND does it's paging through the '040 system, I'm guessing that
there might be a chance that the '040 might be able to decide whether to
hold on to that data in the cube's RAM or page it to disk.
>To come back to your purchase... I really think that with $[lots of
money] you >could have a really really hot PC : Just take a look at the
ALR Pentium >Evolution VQ. Ask them to put the Wingine card from epson
(locabus graphic >card). It's the fastest available graphic card
supporting NEXTSTEP actually. >It enable a resolution of 1280*1024 (the
highest resolution). Ask then a >configuration with a hot 17" color
monitor that would support this large >resolution (ask then the price for
a 21" monitor also). And you will see that >you'll have something really
more powerfull that the ND !!!
My two cents:
1. The resolution is high on that card, but when will it support 2
monitors like the ND does? Will it support more than 2 monitors working
together to make a virtual monitor?
2. Where is the video in/out ports required for producing video tapes
of one's work? From what I see, you must buy proprietary hardware and
non-standard C libraries or ObjC classes to get these ports. Even then,
you cannot have just anyone with an NS system build apps that will "just
work" with the ND (NS comes standard with a video view that works
perfectly with the ND).
3. The Wingine card sounds nice for a works-okay-right-now solution,
but it only lets you display up to 16-bit (adjustable alpha, so I hear)
video? That means that you're not going to be doing that much better than
a NeXTstation color. Considering how much you can get a NeXTstation color
for these days, that slight increase in resolution doesn't sound like
enough to justify the cost and the hassle of getting drivers right (to
me). With the ND, you get 24+8-bit video across the machine, no tricks,
no hassle, just plug it in and go.1
4. With NS/I comes getting into the PC way of thought for adding
functionality: don't worry that your new hardware is proprietary, just
make a driver! Drivers aren't too bad but they don't seem to be that easy
to create. Perhaps this is just the problem of the programmers and not
the tools, but the new DriverKit doesn't seem to be helping anyone make
drivers (I've not seen anyone say they've made a driver for anything).
In the future the Intel machines might very well have what the ND has now,
but that's just the point. The ND has it now and the Intel machines
simply don't. It all depends on what each user is interested in, as the
Intel boxes are not for everyone. You got that ND system at a real steal,
if you ask me, and I think you'll be very happy with it.
>You'll be able to evoluate... when you'll not be able to do it with the
ND !
[...]
Anything you buy will be cheaper the minute after you buy it. If that
sentence was "You'll be able to evaluate..." I think that you most
certainly will be able to evaulate differences, but I haven't bumped into
any ND user that was as disappointed with the ND as Eric apparently is.
How he configured his machine makes me wonder though. I know that when I
had an 8/105M machine I wasn't exactly doing cartwheels over what I could
do on the machine. I had to uninstall a large part of the 2.1 user setup
to install a couple apps that I really needed at the time. I was not in
any position to do installation of stuff off the net and swapping killed
my machine frequently. When I added more memory and a good size hard disk
(for UNIX the standards tend to be higher than for DOS or Windows a 1G
hard disk is becoming more common for users of most types), my crashes all
but went away (I've crashed 4 times due to swapdrive fill-up) and I'm able
to actually use my system compiling stuff on it and getting into having
fun with it, not just open a no-scrollback Terminal window and kermit into
[a local UNIX machine].
----------
1 All the drivers you need to use are launched at boot time and come
with the system, no additional work needed. Conversely, if you don't have
the drivers needed for the Intel system you have to create them yourself,
hire someone to create them or do without. I've heard (in other words,
not confirmed) that the Wingine card allows deeper video (increase
on-screen palette) by adding more ram. That's good, but there is a limit
of 16-bit video, so no matter how much memory you add you'll never be able
to have enough for 24-bit video. This might be a Wingine software
limitation that might change with future Wingine software, but I don't
know for sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
2.4 The Crux of the Biscuit [any Frank Zappa fans out there? :-<)>]
[I think Jeff and Brian sum up the debate very well. Alex's and Eric's
final comments are excellent, too.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 18:51:16 -0500
From: J.B. Nicholson-Owens <je...@owens.slip.uiuc.edu>
[...]
>but they strongly recommended the 486 or Pentium
This seems to be the big issue at hand, so I'll offer my two cents:
(all statements based on what you can do right now)
ND Turbo system Intel-based system
24-bit color + 8-bit alpha Best color is 16-bit with adjustable alpha
DSP standard No DSP (addons would be custom and not
easily standardized now)
Can use high-speed SIMMS Might be able to use high-speed SIMMS if
the
hardware supports it most I am familiar
with can not do this, however
Supports two monitors No multiple monitor support, no virtual
in a virtual screen monitor support
arrangement
Able to use all major kits Can not use Music Kit (a major kit for
dealing (can not use driver kit) with simultaneous sounds and DSP
support)
but can use driver kit
Can use TTYDSP for Must rely on whatever the serial port on
the
incredibly high serial rates machine has since adding a serial card
with
(far beyond 57.6k baud)1 enhanced capability would run into
customization problem again.
Can not run any OS but Can
run a variety of OS's, including free
NEXTSTEP UNIX ports [e.g., 386BSD and Linux],
Windows, OS/2 and MS-DOS
1 use of Yrrid's TTYDSP makes using the DSP for other things impossible.
Playing DSP music and using TTYDSP to dialup to a BBS would be impossible.
The workaround would be to play the music with the CPU and use TTYDSP for
the high-speed BBS work. Speaking from a personal viewpoint, once you use
SLIP, dialups will seem so archaic. Receiving mail at home and reading
news at home is such a nice thing. It might even make you consider
something like purchasing an ISDN connection which will require as much
speed as you can give it [one person I talked to is using an ISDN modem at
57.6k baud with TTYDSP on his NeXT hardware right now as I type this]. If
you ever considered living in a UIUC dorm with ethernet [the University of
Illinois is installing direct ethernet connections to the campus backbone
in University dormitories] in your room, that would be best, but ISDN is
second best.
>Reasons given: cheaper, much faster, and 24-bit color and video boards
>supposedly coming soon.
But if there are no 24+X-bit boards available, it is by definition neither
(1) cheaper nor (2) faster. They are comparing a 24+8-bit (palette+alpha)
display system (ND) to a 16+4(?)-bit display system (Intel) and telling
you the Intel system is faster. Of course it'll be faster, it has less
data to store, pass through the bus and retreive to draw and redraw
graphics. My 2+2-bit cube is going to be faster then their Intel system
by the same logic.
Also, I should mention that (for me) the phrase "coming soon" means
absolutely nothing to me. I know Windows, X and DOS users can enjoy
24-bit displays on their Intel machines now. If I were considering
switching to those OS's, I would care about that since I want color so
much. But a combination of things has to happen before there is an Intel
NS machine with the capability of the ND:
(1) 24+8-bit display or better card
(2) driver support for NS
(3) realtime video in/out ports on the card
(4) a driver that makes the hooks for using the ND video methods also able
to be used by the Intel card [otherwise you'll end up with some card that
is only able to work with some software something that goes strictly
against the NS work paradigm, if you ask me].
(5) driver support that allows ALL of NS to use the fabulous color ALL the
time, not just in a particular window or view, but all 24-bit icons come
up as 24-bit icons.
(6) A PAL version of the card for European users (since they do
development work also, there is no use in discounting them even though you
will want the NTSC card)
(7) Card and driver that support at least 2 monitors in a virtual monitor
hookup like the ND does right now.
There are no such cards for the Intel systems that can be used with NS
right now, and the only option I've heard of is this thing from a company
whose name escapes me that will allow animation editing. Their stuff does
not allow the entire system to become 24+8-bit display, however, therefore
to me it's just duplicating a fraction of what could be done with just
software on the ND. If "coming soon" matters to you so much, keep in
mind what you told me the demoers at NeXTtime said, how it'll run so well
on a ND system.
In order for any Intel display card to be compared to the ND, it will have
to compete on ALL the bases that the ND can compete on. I might have left
some ND features out, but you get the idea that a simple 24-bit frame
buffer is NOT in any way going to suffice as proper competition for the
ND.
Now, just so I don't seem totally pro-ND, here are some drawbacks:
* Little X usage (all the X programs run incredibly slow on ND systems, I
wouldn't expect to use X under ND at all. Since I don't use X this
doesn't matter one whit to me personally, but if your needs change and you
need X, this could easily matter)
* Maximum 2-monitor support: The ND cannot daisy-chain monitors so that
you could create a video wall.
* No combined PAL/NTSC video in/out: Unless you purchase two ND boards,
you cannot get both PAL and NTSC on one system. If you did purchase two
boards (and hooked up 4 monitors) you would have one two-monitor screens
duplicated once in PAL and once in NTSC (the same video would go out on
both ND boards). Not a 4-monitor single virtual-screen ND system.
* Increase swap and RAM usage: As with ANY system, the more data you
store, the more space you require in which to store it. With a 24+8-bit
system (such as the ND), you will require more RAM and swap space than
someone with a 2+2-bit system (such as me) because you will be storing
more data per color image (whether the image is on-screen or not) than I
will. This is not an ND flaw, per se, this is a basic operating fact of
all computers.
* Slower machine: The ND system will be slower than it's equally-equipped
B&W competitor (comparing a [...] Turbo Cube to an ND Turbo system with
equal amounts of RAM, swap space and running the same apps on the same
version of NS, for instance). The ND machine has to move at least 12
times the data across the same bus (compared to the Turbo Cube) to use the
full palette of the ND. The simple equation of rate=distance/time will
tell you that the ND machine will be slower at the same display tasks.
For me, the enhanced resolution (using a 2-monitor display doubles the
horizontal resolution, albeit across two monitors) and the enhanced
palette more than make up for that lack of speed. Programming can
(possibly totally) take care of that speed differential by using efficient
decompressing algorithms. A decent NeXTtime implementation running on an
ND system would answer the question of how much work is it to implement
such a good realtime display system.
[...]
I'm telling ya, if you want to do NS in real color, there are only two
options: (1) NeXTdimension or (2) wait and see what the Intel machine
offers. If you want to use NS real color now, there's only one way: ND.
[...]
Perhaps by the time you are in a position to buy something else or
something in addition to your ND box, there will be low-cost ND lookalikes
for 72MHz '486 or HP boxes that will scream your name. If you get another
NS machine, you might use that one to crank out the frames of some
animation and use the ND system to display them. You could then use the
HP system on a 2+2-bit display and ethernet the two machines together
(with a phone cable perhaps) to get the data from one machine to the
other.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 10:49:41 -0700
From: Brian Willoughby <bri...@sounds.wa.com>
I'll give you a few points of view that I have.
1)
Con: Compared to other video systems out there, especially motion video
systems designed after the NeXTdimension, it now seems like the dimension
is expensive. i.e. the cost/performance ratio is high. My common
"mistake" is to think about features like recording real-time video to
disk, simply because newer systems for the PC can handle this at low cost.
But I don't think this is a fair comparison considering when the
NeXTdimension was designed. The dimension cannot record high frame rates
directly to disk because there is no hardware support for real-time
compression. The only possibility would be to get a video playback device
with frame accuracy, and have the NeXT control the pause on each frame
long enough to convert and save the frame's image to disk.
Pro: If your requirements do not include recording live video to disk,
then the NeXTdimension is attractive at the right price. Real-time video
in a window, without storing to disk, is fully functional. Conversion and
display of still images is fantastic. There is no substitute for 24-bit
true color. The NeXTstation and most PC video cards do not come close in
quality. Taken as a whole package (instead of comparing the cost of the
dimension upgrade by itself against the cost of a NeXTcube), the
NeXTdimension has (or had?) the best price/performance ratio in the
workstation market. You'll especially benefit from purchasing a used
system (I purchased a demo system from the local NeXT dealer).
2)
Con: If you don't have the money for at least 32MB of dimension memory,
you are going to suffer. I have also been told that you need to keep the
amount of RAM on the main board balanced with amount on the ND (as close
as possible given the different number of slots and types of SIMM which
are accepted by each), although I don't know what the consequences are if
this advice is not followed.
Pro: This is an easy "problem" to solve. I started with 28+20MB (CPU/ND)
and now have 40+48MB, hoping to eventually reach 64+64MB. My system was
never very slow in the beginning, and is now even snappier. Many things
are faster than on the NeXTcube, but a few things are slower. I am happy
with the tradeoffs. A Turbo NeXTdimension might be the perfect combo.
What are you getting?
In summary, I like my machine. I would never own a 486 PC as my main
workstation, simply because there is no substitute for the computing power
and throughput of a workstation with an integrated design like the NeXT.
There are still far too many problems with the speed of PC bus systems,
and the peripheral are not designed to work together with several channels
of DMA for transferring several streams of data in a multitasking
environment.
You might want to consider some of the restrictions I had in mind when I
made my purchase decision. I had already decided, having owned an Apple
][ with only 6 colors, that any new computer purchase must be capable of
24-bit true color in its highest resolution. With this personal
preference, I was left with no other choice but the NeXTdimension (once I
found out that the SGI Indigo starts with 8-bit video for $8,000 plus a
$3,000 development package which didn't support 56001 development, I
decided that NeXT had the best price/performance ratio in the range I
could afford). As long as I don't get distracted by drooling over new
computer applications like live video compression and recording, I realize
that my machine does a great job of all the tasks that I had in mind when
I purchased it. If you're getting a reasonable price for this used
NeXTdimension, I would say "go for it".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 18:01:22 -0500
From: Alex Currier <myc...@monolith.cc.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: About NeXTdimensions...
Reply-To: myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
[...]
Certainly you can use what I said, even though I seem to have changed my
mind! The reason for this was I looked more closely at the specs on the
Indy and realized that for the base price of about 5K you get just the
basics. You'd have to add a HD (1.2GB, please) and a monitor (21" would be
nice) and more memory and even then you'd be running a brand new untested
OS (or GUI at least, whatever it is that "Magic" actually is) [Magic is
the recently-announced new SGI user environment]. The final cost for a
real performance system would be in the high 7K to low 9K region. At this
point in my life I don't need to (and can't afford to) spend that kind of
money on the Indy. I believe my ND system (at the astounding low price I
managed to pay for it) will meet my needs nicely for some time. If I need
more horsepower I can buy a second NeXT and distribute rendering or
whatnot between them. In a few years when there have been some real
strides made in computing power and storage capability I will consider
moving up to a higher level. Already I have more computer on my desk than
some small countries.
As for NeXT versus Intel hardware... I now have some experience in that
area too. PC hardware is pretty cool. It's faster and more configurable
but when you think about the system as a whole... I would rather buy a
machine designed by one company completely and solely for running NeXTSTEP
than buy a machine designed by 10 different companies and stuck together
which was never designed to run anything like NeXTSTEP. The
hardware/software integration of NS on NeXT hardware makes it worth buying
the orphaned equipment, in my opinion and for my applications. Users who
want raw speed probably should wait for NS ports to higher end machines...
users who want a cheap NS box should consider used NeXT hardware. My '040
cube 16/349 cost me $2000.
Of course this is all for me, other people may have very good reasons for
buying a PC machine to run NS. The CPU performance is definitely there...
a DX2/66 with 256K cache outperformes the Color Turbostation by a factor
of 150% to 250%. Video performance does suffer a bit (80% to 90% of the
NCT) but that will probably be remedied in the future with new hardware
designed with NS in mind and better drivers. I just don't like the idea of
a machine with so many variables... I have never been a big fan of Chow
Mein hardware (where you throw in whatever you have and hope it works).
That's what I always liked about Apple and NeXT. You get a well integrated
machine and (in Apple's case) you still have room to upgrade (though you
don't have to upgrade just to get basic functionality like good video and
SCSI and sound and whatnot).
alex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 12:26:49 -0500
From: Eric de_la_Tribouille <eri...@marula.cs.uiuc.edu>
I think that the main problem when you manage large images come from the
fact it really takes a lot of memory. So the same problem of swaping may
come from a PC. It would be very interesting to test that. Some guys tell
you that we'll wait at least one year before seeing 24bit supported under
NEXTSTEP FIP. I really hope it will be ready for the 3.2.... and it should
!
The main advantage of a PC comes from the fact you will allways be able to
find the solution, and it does not take a long wait.
I would say that the advice from the guy at NeXT to take a PENTIUM machine
is interesting...
But real live test is the best thing for sure ! If you could have this
NEXTDimension for one month with NEXTSTEP 3.1, we'll be able to test it
and to be sure it'll give you what you want. I don't know if it's
possible, but it would be the best choice !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------[Dan Marusich reports (8/8/93) that 32-bit color will be supported
with Release 3.2. Hooray! Nevertheless, I'm proud to own an Original Black
Beauty]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
ke...@infoserv.com
C Weintz) writes:
#The NeXTdimension Compendium (or, How I Spent My Summer Vacation)
#
#think of why you would want more than 64 MB of RAM on the NeXTdimension
#board. The ND's RAM primary function is to store the screen image, which,
#mind you, is huge: Over 1,000,000 pixels X 32 bits per pixel = 32 MB of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not to nitpick but that's 32 megabits or 4 megabytes.
32 bits/8 bits/byte = 4 bytes.
4 bytes per pixel = 4 megabytes per screen.
Kent
BTW - The info is good since I just got a ND board for my system
about 1 month ago. ;-) --- Very cool
--
/* K.L. Shephard Consulting is my company. Infoserv only delivers my mail. */
/* Please direct mail to ke...@infoserv.com other adresses may not work. */
Ross Werner
I am one of the architects and hardware designers of ND. I'd be
happy to answer ND hardware related questions for any ND users.
I'm doing this on my own time, because I'm proud of what we created.
(Yes, that's a less than flattering picture of me in the Fall '91
NeXTworld. Seems like that was an eternity ago.)
Disclaimers:
I am no longer at NeXT.
I have no access to any NeXT-confidential ND documentation,
just my memory.
So if you want the REAL story about compression on ND, or have an
ND related hardware question, I'll do what I can. Please be
sensitive to the fact that I am no longer at NeXT and won't be
able to help in all cases.
Ross Werner
Alex Currier
Werner) writes:
> So if you want the REAL story about compression on ND, or have an
> ND related hardware question, I'll do what I can. Please be
> sensitive to the fact that I am no longer at NeXT and won't be
> able to help in all cases.
Thanks for offering to answer questions about the ND.
I have one, what is the connector on the ND that looks like some daughter
board might fit into it? I don't see it on any of the ND literature.
--
====================================
Alex Currier
myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
NeXTcube #1302 / ND and proud of it.
NeXTmail preferred!
====================================