NeXT Hardware questions
Rodrigo Cesar de Castro Miranda
Hi there.
I am _very_ interested in acquiring a NeXT machine, but I have a couple
of choices and a few questions.
My first choice is a NeXT ColorStation Turbo (64 MB RAM/1.0 GB HD). Not
much to ask here, except: Does it come with a CDROM? If not, can I use
my internal Nec Multi-Spin 3xi SCSI-II with it?
The second choice would be a TurboCube. I read on the net about someone
who put together a 68040 and a 68030. Anybody done something similar,
but with Turbo 68040 motherboards? Did it work? With a Dimension board?
Does NEXTSTEP allows you to use bothe motherboards transparently, or do
they have to run separate instances of the OS? Was it very hard?
TIA,
Rodrigo Miranda
(rodr...@tba.com.br)
PS: BTW, is there anyone in Brazil willing to sell me a NeXT Computer?
(A working intel box with a reasonable price would be nice, too, but I
think I prefer a NeXT)
Christian Jensen
Rodrigo Cesar de Castro Miranda <rodr...@tba.com.br> wrote:
>My first choice is a NeXT ColorStation Turbo (64 MB RAM/1.0 GB HD). Not
>much to ask here, except: Does it come with a CDROM?
No.
>If not, can I use
>my internal Nec Multi-Spin 3xi SCSI-II with it?
There is no room for it internally within a slab, AFAIK. NEC drives tend to
work fine with NeXT hardware though, so mount your drive in a case, or get an
external model.
>The second choice would be a TurboCube. I read on the net about someone
>who put together a 68040 and a 68030. Anybody done something similar,
>but with Turbo 68040 motherboards? Did it work? With a Dimension board?
>Does NEXTSTEP allows you to use bothe motherboards transparently, or do
>they have to run separate instances of the OS? Was it very hard?
Read the FAQ at http://peanuts.leo.org. It should be doable with a Turbo +
25Mhz + ND, but it would not be a job for the faint of heart.
--Chris
**************************
Chris Jensen
ceje...@winternet.com
MIME, Sun, NeXTMail OK
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
--Mark Twain
Richard Scholz
>
> The second choice would be a TurboCube. I read on the net about someone
> who put together a 68040 and a 68030. Anybody done something similar,
> but with Turbo 68040 motherboards? Did it work? With a Dimension board?
Dimension Boards should just work as usual with the main 68040
motherboard.
You can only use 68030 motherboards additional to your main 68040
motherboard.
It is not possible to add 68040 motherboards.
But you could add some more ND boards for fun :-)
> Does NEXTSTEP allows you to use bothe motherboards transparently, or do
> they have to run separate instances of the OS? Was it very hard?
No, you don't get multiprocessor action. You have to use two instances
of the OS.
It is just as having two computers in one box.
bes...@cs.wisc.edu
Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
>...
>You can only use 68030 motherboards additional to your main 68040
>motherboard. It is not possible to add 68040 motherboards.
You can add more 040 boards but only if you remove their NBIC chip.
Basically, you can only have one motherboard thinking its on the NeXTbus (I
believe most 030 boards don't have an NBIC, hence they're nopt a problem).
Any ND boards in there will run "off" the motherboard thats using the
NeXTbus.
- Gareth
---
Gareth Bestor, Ph.D bes...@cs.wisc.edu
Computer Sciences Department http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~bestor
University of Wisconsin-Madison
David Evans
In article <3590FA...@REMOVETHISsubito.de>,
Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
>You can only use 68030 motherboards additional to your main 68040
>motherboard.
>It is not possible to add 68040 motherboards.
>
That's not quite true. If you can remove the NBIC from the '040 board you
should be able to use it. However, I believe that the NBIC's on all '040
boards are soldered, so you'd have to be dextrous.
>But you could add some more ND boards for fun :-)
>
Yes, this is a fun thing to do.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfe...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Richard Scholz
David Evans wrote:
> Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
> >It is not possible to add 68040 motherboards.
>
> That's not quite true. If you can remove the NBIC from the '040 board you
> should be able to use it. However, I believe that the NBIC's on all '040
> boards are soldered, so you'd have to be dextrous.
I tried to do this. The NBIC was not soldered on my '040 board, so I
removed it. Of course I also did the backplane modification. Yet, the
board didn't want to start up. It just played dead.
So I removed my main board, put in the secondary without the NBIC into
the real slot 0, added monitor, keyboard and mouse and tried again.
Still no luck. I suppose the '040 board tests for the NBIC chip, and
doesn't start up, if it doesn't find it.
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Scholz, Subito Software GmbH, Walldorf, Germany
To reply please remove REMOVETHIS from my email address
David Evans
In article <359206...@REMOVETHISsubito.de>,
Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
>Still no luck. I suppose the '040 board tests for the NBIC chip, and
>doesn't start up, if it doesn't find it.
>
Urf. That doesn't sound good. Mike? Where are you?
George B. Ameer
Along same train of thought, Is there anything that you need to
do to add a second dimension board to a 40 cube?
Is it plug and go, or is there any setup required?
Does each dimension have to have the same amount/type of
RAM?
Thanks in advance.
David Evans wrote in message <89878761...@globe.uwaterloo.ca>...
spam...@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
In <359206...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> Richard Scholz wrote:
> David Evans wrote:
> > Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
> > [...]
> > >It is not possible to add 68040 motherboards.
> >
> > That's not quite true. If you can remove the NBIC from the '040
board you
> > should be able to use it. However, I believe that the NBIC's on
all '040
> > boards are soldered, so you'd have to be dextrous.
>
> I tried to do this. The NBIC was not soldered on my '040 board, so I
> removed it. Of course I also did the backplane modification. Yet, the
> board didn't want to start up. It just played dead.
> So I removed my main board, put in the secondary without the NBIC
into
> the real slot 0, added monitor, keyboard and mouse and tried again.
> doesn't start up, if it doesn't find it.
>
Ack. I've never done this since I use my ADB Turbo ND as
the print server/NFS and now Intel as the real work horse.
So I can't comment. I also don't have a lot of cube 040 MB's
around to play with.
I very much would like to know the answer to this question though.
Whether there are any dual 040 Cubes out there - as per the
040/030 dual hack. I know there are 040's with socketed
NBIC's since I have one.
I also know the 030 WILL work with the ND if you drop a NBIC
in the socket. Can you say SLOW? I knew you could. :)
BTW: I"m not sure what you did here? Did you have both
040's in the case, and both with either monitors or sound
boxes? It may be that you have to power on both boards
via keyboard. Though that seems unlikely.
The other issue if you have to have the NBIC in there would
be that you have to fully isolate those busses and in effect
create two indepandant busses. w/o the NBIC I can't see
what would stop the other 040 from booting - other
than not having a second sound box or monitor on it
and possibly hitting the power on key there also.
Again I'd like to hear from anyone who has multiple 040's
in a Cube via the backplane hack.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
David Evans
In article <6mu31i$e0v$1...@news0-alterdial.uu.net>,
George B. Ameer <geo...@ana.porsa.com> wrote:
>Along same train of thought, Is there anything that you need to
>do to add a second dimension board to a 40 cube?
>Is it plug and go, or is there any setup required?
Yep. Just stick it in and hook up a monitor. You might have to enable the
additional screen in Preferences but I'm not sure.
>Does each dimension have to have the same amount/type of
>RAM?
I wouldn't think so but don't know for sure.
Mike Paquette
Richard Scholz <ric...@REMOVETHISsubito.de> wrote:
> I tried to do this. The NBIC was not soldered on my '040 board, so I
> removed it. Of course I also did the backplane modification. Yet, the
> board didn't want to start up. It just played dead.
> So I removed my main board, put in the secondary without the NBIC into
> the real slot 0, added monitor, keyboard and mouse and tried again.
> Still no luck. I suppose the '040 board tests for the NBIC chip, and
> doesn't start up, if it doesn't find it.
The 040 boards will work without an NBIC, IF they are placed in a
NeXTBUS slot that IDs itself as Slot 0, AND if everything else works
well.
In early Cubes, the system may not start if the monochrome monitor is
not connected, due to the power supply sensing an incorrect load on the
12 volt output.
Other hardware problems may occur if the proper tools are not used in
extracting the NBIC (or any other big PGA IC), including broken traces,
cracks, and delaminations of the PC board. Be careful!
Mike Paquette
George B. Ameer <geo...@ana.porsa.com> wrote:
> Along same train of thought, Is there anything that you need to
> do to add a second dimension board to a 40 cube?
> Is it plug and go, or is there any setup required?
It's pretty much plug-n-go. Shut down the system, open the back, pop in
the boards, close the back, connect the monitors, and turn on the
system.
Once the system is up, the loginwindow will apppear (by default, on the
display for the ND card in the highest numbered slot). Log in, launch
Preferences, select the Monitors panel, and set up the display layout
and enabled screens the waqy you want them.
> Does each dimension have to have the same amount/type of
> RAM?
Nope. 8 Mb or more is needed. I suggest 16 Mb per board for systems
running OPENSTEP 4.x. (There are some optimizations in OPENSTEP that
reduce the amount of memory needed for most uses.)
Caveats:
1) Dragging 24 bit color windows between the displays can be SLOW. (The
ND boards don't get to play bus master, so the 68040 does the
inter-board moves.)
2) Video I/O apps will use the video I/O connections on the board that
the video display window is on. Drag it to a different display, and a
different board's video I/O is used.
--
Mike Paquette mpa...@wco.com
When encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will use encryption.
Richard Scholz
Mike Paquette wrote:
> The 040 boards will work without an NBIC, IF they are placed in a
> NeXTBUS slot that IDs itself as Slot 0, AND if everything else works
> well.
I cannot confirm this. When I try to power my '040 without the NBIC the
following
happens:
- Power is turned on
- The b/w monitor stays dark. The machine does not boot.
Then I have to power the machine down by removing the power cable.
After inserting the NBIC back into the board, the machine boots as usual
when
turned on again.
In both cases the cube was configured identical - '040 board in slot 0,
b/w
monitor and keyboard connected.
The only difference is the presence of the NBIC chip.
I think there is a difference between the '030 and the '040 boards.
As far as I know the '030 is not able to detect a Dimension board at
boot time,
so that the boot messages are always displayed at the monochrom screen.
Yet a '040 board checks for the presence of a Dimension board at boot
time, and
displays boot messages on it, if there is no monochrom monitor
connected.
To do this, the '040 board has to use the NBIC to access the NUBUS.
Maybe the test for the ND board hangs, because of the missing NBIC.
--
David Evans
In article <1db867q.1jg...@cetus188.wco.com>,
Mike Paquette <mpa...@wco.com> wrote:
>
>1) Dragging 24 bit color windows between the displays can be SLOW. (The
>ND boards don't get to play bus master, so the 68040 does the
>inter-board moves.)
>
You knew it, the inevitable question. Was this basically done to make life
easier when designing the ND?
spam...@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
If you havn't yet - then take the ND out and try this test. If you
have
then I don't understand the point - except that you think the MB probes
the NBIC bus looking for a ND before booting. w/o the NBIC it
shouldn't
check for anything.
Your going to make me check this arn't you!!
I've done the test with a 030 board & NBIC & ND. It does work - where
the boot screen went - I don't remember. I guess I could try it again
and report.
spam...@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Ok. I have a 040 motherboard that has a socketed NBIC and I got
tired of speculating. Though I'm not hacking up a perfectly good
backplane
to do the other tests. If someone wants to send me one to hack up, or
that
is hacked up I will.
Test set 1.
Cube 040 25Mhz - 12MB RAM
Motherboard serial # AAX0011238 Part # 1698.AE ROM 2.1 v59 (a old one)
Backplane Serial 134847, 1000.00 AA ASSY 1003 - 1989
ND absent.
NBIC at slot 0 boots fine
NBIC removed slot 0 boots fine
ND present
Serial AAL0012675, Part # (board rev) 1508.AD 1991
NBIC removed slot 0 ND slot 2 boots fine
040 at slot 4 NBIC removed
ND at slot 6 turns on - dark screen - remove power plug to shut off
ND removed turns on - dark screen - remove power plug ..
Test set 2
Cube 030 25Mhz - 8MB RAM
Motherboard Serial # AAG0006659 Part # 587.00.AD 1989 ROM 1.2
Backplane identical to above.
ND absent
030 at slot 4 No NBIC Turns on - starts to boot stops
after saying Booting from SCSI target.
command-alt * (numeric keypad)
restarts it (command-tilde fails)
030 at slot 0 No NBIC Boots fine.
Clearly there is something different about the 030 than the 040.
I don't intend to pursue this further unless a extra backplane turns
up as I don't care to hack my perfectly good packplane at this point.
If someone has a spare backplane lying around I'd be happy to try it.
Final point
Same 030 motherboard
NBIC - slot 0 ND slot 2 Boot screen is on the Mono monitor.
ND Step C.1 ROM version 43 Gotten at boot time. System
boots
with ND as loginwindow. dual
monitor just works as normal.
All of the above was running NS3.3.
So unless someone knows otherwise I suspect a dual 040 hack
might effectively require some different backplane modifications..
Mike if you have any other input I'd appreciate hearing it. Though
it may be that Richard hasn't sucessfully done the slot zero
hack to his backplane since he doesn't have a 030 to try it out
and that may be why his 040 won't work there. I still find it
interesting that the 030 would at least show the initilization
code presumably try the SCSI - never made it to loading
the kernel though. The 040 gives a dark screen.
I expected most of this from using the MB in slot 4 - unhacked.
I find it interesting that even w/o the NBIC the MB knows which slot
it's in (or that it's not slot zero).
Mike Paquette
<spam...@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
> So unless someone knows otherwise I suspect a dual 040 hack
> might effectively require some different backplane modifications..
> Mike if you have any other input I'd appreciate hearing it. Though
> it may be that Richard hasn't sucessfully done the slot zero
> hack to his backplane since he doesn't have a 030 to try it out
> and that may be why his 040 won't work there. I still find it
> interesting that the 030 would at least show the initilization
> code presumably try the SCSI - never made it to loading
> the kernel though. The 040 gives a dark screen.
>
> I expected most of this from using the MB in slot 4 - unhacked.
> I find it interesting that even w/o the NBIC the MB knows which slot
> it's in (or that it's not slot zero).
Unlike the 68030 board, the 68040 decodes the slot ID and folds it into
the NeXTbus slot and board address spaces. This means that the physical
addresses of the hardware, ROM, and memory vary with the slot the card
is plugged into. The boot ROM and kernel all assume Slot 0 addresses,
and won't work anywhere else.
The slot ID lines don't require the NBIC to function.
Mike Paquette