3.2 crashes
Mark Crispin
the filesystem clobberage. The problem is in drawing up a reliable scenario
to reproduce the problem.
Things to watch out for:
1) doing an upgrade instead of a full install from scratch
2) usage of the login window's restart button instead of double-command-`
and halt
3) usage of the brightness keys while the system is starting (and before the
window manager has run)
Items posted on this list that have been confirmed to be *not* a factor are:
1) memory failure
2) SCSI bus termination
3) ``local mods''
Transsys SLIP is still under investigation as a possible factor, but there has
been no evidence to date blame Mamakos.
As for the weenie comments (e.g. ``karma'', or ``get a new OS''), such as
excellent examples of why many vendors don't want to touch the NeXT community
with a 10-foot pole. Such comments make the entire NeXT community look bad
and only serve to validate the image of NEXTSTEP as being a fringe system.
Alex Currier
<m...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> writes:
> As for the weenie comments (e.g. ``karma'', or ``get a new OS''), such as
> excellent examples of why many vendors don't want to touch the NeXT
> community with a 10-foot pole. Such comments make the entire NeXT community
> look bad and only serve to validate the image of NEXTSTEP as being a fringe
> system.
(With all due respect) I'm sorry but I think this has a lot more to do with
your incessant complaining and bad mouthing of NeXTStep than any tendency for
the NeXT community to be rude to people with problems who need help. I think
the point was that *You, Mark Crispin* need to just give up on NS and move
along rather than any Joe User/Vendor who's having a problem with NS should
give up on it.
This is not an evidence of the low quality of the NeXT community or the
fringeness of NeXTStep, it is an evidence that the NeXT community (such as it
is here) is getting bored of hearing you go on about NeXTStep and some people
feel you're just beating your own personal dead horse.
--
==============================================================================
Alex Currier * myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu * NeXTmail capable.
Time is just one damn thing after another.
==============================================================================
Mark Crispin
Have you thought about the consequences of what you state?
Suppose I did give up on using the NEXTSTEP operating system. Then my
comment would be that I had to give up on NEXTSTEP because I was unusable.
A vocal unhappy EX-customer is much more damaging than an unhappy current
customer. Especially an ex-customer who is stuck with several thousands of
dollars worth of useless equipment.
It may be emotionally satisfying to you to tell me to buzz off, but it
precisely that sort of comment that hurts your cause. You might consider what
those comments look like to any corporation considering the purchase of
NEXTSTEP.
Robert Nicholson
>In article <MS-C.758669225...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> Mark Crispin
><m...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> writes:
>
>> As for the weenie comments (e.g. ``karma'', or ``get a new OS''), such as
>> excellent examples of why many vendors don't want to touch the NeXT
>> community with a 10-foot pole. Such comments make the entire NeXT community
>> look bad and only serve to validate the image of NEXTSTEP as being a fringe
>> system.
>
>(With all due respect) I'm sorry but I think this has a lot more to do with
>your incessant complaining and bad mouthing of NeXTStep than any tendency for
>the NeXT community to be rude to people with problems who need help. I think
>the point was that *You, Mark Crispin* need to just give up on NS and move
>along rather than any Joe User/Vendor who's having a problem with NS should
>give up on it.
>
>This is not an evidence of the low quality of the NeXT community or the
>fringeness of NeXTStep, it is an evidence that the NeXT community (such as it
>is here) is getting bored of hearing you go on about NeXTStep and some people
>feel you're just beating your own personal dead horse.
I for one am not bored with Mark's "incessant complaining and bad mouthing".
I consider that statement to be rather harsh actually. Mark has
always conducted himself with the utmost courtesy in this group and
it's only those folks who continue to stiffle his opinions and act in
an offensive manner that are a bit tiresome. I for one enjoy seeing
a multidimensional view of the world rather than the tunnel vision that
most people are seeing.
"If you want tunnel vision go read some white papers"
I think the reason why Mark hasn't moved on to something else is
obvious and it's the reason all of us haven't moved onto something
else. There just aint anything else worth moving onto! We all love
NeXTSTEP.
I probably risk alienating myself from some of the diehard NeXT fans
in this group but I don't think that people should be told to shut up
when you don't like what they are saying. This is advocacy after
all. It's no holds bared in here, get use to it.
Now I return you to your previously scheduled flamefest :-)
--
"You know what's wrong with you?" (Audrey Hepburn, Cary Grant)
"Nothing" Charade, 1963
rob...@steffi.demon.co.uk (ASCII for text only messages)
Jerry Weiss
Mark, most of us no longer care what you think. We don't care if your
predictions are true. We don't care if your technical comments are
relevant. We are tired of "the sky is falling" attitude in your notes.
Welcome to my KILL file, you've earned it.
--
Jerry S. Weiss
j-w...@nwu.edu
Dept. Medicine, Northwestern Univ. Medical School, Chicago, Illinois
%SYSTEM-S-PHALOKTARG, Phasers Locked on Target, Ready to Fire
William E. Grosso
> In article <MS-C.758674206...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>,
> Mark Crispin <m...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It may be emotionally satisfying to you to tell me to buzz off, but it
> >precisely that sort of comment that hurts your cause. You might consider what
> >those comments look like to any corporation considering the purchase of
> >NEXTSTEP.
> >
>
> Mark, most of us no longer care what you think. We don't care if your
> predictions are true. We don't care if your technical comments are
> relevant. We are tired of "the sky is falling" attitude in your notes.
>
Actually, I can (sortof) verify what Mr. Crispin says : People do
occasionally wonder why Mr. Crispin gets abused. During one
of the interminable flame wars that Mr. Crispin (somehow :-) )
gets involved in, I posted something like "Why do people even respond
to Mark".
I received e-mail from 2 distinct people asking me "Who is
this Mark Crispin / Why does everyone treat him so badly ?"
Moral: There are newbies out there and they pay attention to us.
I have no idea if flaming Mark loses NeXT sales (I tend to think
that corporations would take enough of a time-slice to realise
Mark is quite the anomaly), but he has a point : the deluge of flame
that inevitably follows any of his postings (especially when he is
being reasonable) makes *us* (the quasi-mythical NeXT community)
look bad (though, in our favor, not nearly as bad as those
Amiga people :-) ).
Bill Grosso
Alex Currier
read on usenet? For every single thing ever made or sold there are some
customers for whom it just doesn't work and who end up being disgruntled
ex-customers. I don't think that your one machine's problems and a few
comments made in half jest about your rather unique experiences with and
opinions about NeXTStep are going to be detremental to NeXT as a company or
are going to lose them any sales (they do that well enough for themselves).
Anyone who has followed the c.s.n.* groups for any length of time knows about
you (even my next door neighbor who doesn't own a computer recognizes your
name from reading your posts over my shoulder) and knows how you feel about
NeXTStep and would probably take your enthusiastically negative posts with a
grain of salt.
Really, this is nothing personal. I just think your making mountains out of a
molehill here by claiming these replies to you are damaging the character of
NeXTStep. NeXT doesn't live or die by what is said on usenet and even if it
did I think the comments made to you would be taken in the spirit in which
they were meant. In other words, lighten up.
By the way, I am sorry your experiences with NeXTStep have been less than
gratifying but (and I would tell this to my own mother) if it isn't working
for you maybe you *should* just use something else. Pretty good advice, I
think.
Highest regards,
Alex
Christopher Avery
brought the machine up, It went to the monitor window with a panic crash.
I booted the machine without turning it off and went through a long fsck.
The machine has been operating fine since then. As far as I know, I did
not touch any keys during bootup. I suspect there may be an upgrade
problem since it is hard to perfect this type of app. Also, my more
experienced friends recommend a full install.
I also have not been able to read a macintosh formatted floppy under 3.2.
Since I did not try to read such a floppy under 3.0 or 3.1, I can't say
whether this is a recent problem or not. But the disc read fine on a
Macintosh.
--
Christopher Avery
reply to:cav...@andi.org (NeXTMail accepted)
Richard Jacoby
Nicholson) writes:
[stuff deleted]
> I for one am not bored with Mark's "incessant complaining and bad mouthing".
> I consider that statement to be rather harsh actually. Mark has
> always conducted himself with the utmost courtesy in this group
Im staring at the monitor with my mouth wide open!!
[stuff deleted]
Rick
Robert Nicholson
>By the way, I am sorry your experiences with NeXTStep have been less than
>gratifying but (and I would tell this to my own mother) if it isn't working
>for you maybe you *should* just use something else. Pretty good advice, I
>think.
Why should he? Because he'll then be silenced? Or you won't have to
listen to him anymore? Regardless of wether Mark's comments effect
potential sales or not _nobody_ deserves to be treated that way. It's
his investment he can chose what he wants to do with it. Like I said
earlier, there isn't anything else worth using and when there is I'm
sure everybody will "just use something else"
In mean time either read his postings or don't, it's that simple.
Bruce Gingery
wil...@pinoko.berkeley.edu (William E. Grosso) writes:
[most of "Bash Mark Crispin" thread omitted
-> I received e-mail from 2 distinct people asking me "Who is
-> this Mark Crispin / Why does everyone treat him so badly ?"
->
-> Moral: There are newbies out there and they pay attention
-> to us.
->
-> I have no idea if flaming Mark loses NeXT sales (I tend
-> to think that corporations would take enough of a
-> time-slice to realise Mark is quite the anomaly), but
-> he has a point : the deluge of flame that inevitably
-> follows any of his postings (especially when he is
-> being reasonable) makes *us* (the quasi-mythical NeXT
-> community) look bad (though, in our favor, not nearly
-> as bad as those Amiga people :-) ).
Bill,
And yet, if you consider the hardware, and the video
production acceptance that Toaster equipped Amigas are
gaining, you might, as I have, decide that the Ami-4000 might
just be the best direct port -- far exceeding the FIP port in
performance AND solidity.
Consider the following:
1. m68k hardware
2. Blitted video COULD make for faster composite to
screen than on anything else running NEXTSTEP
if properly supported in the PostScript server.
3. Low-end pricing, unless you DO add the toaster.
4. No need to retain AmigaDOS compatibility, as
it could be bootstrapped from a floppy if dual
booting were desired.
5. Lots of peripherals available.
6. OTHER Amiga Unix flavors are not gaining accept-
ance very fast.
7. C=/Amiga still makes hardware and it would be to
their advantage to cooperate, and although they
are short on true task segregation, they've
had shared libraries for a long time (albeit
not pre-link FIXED ones).
And perhaps the most important, no MicroSoft sabotage.
Check out the multi-boot compatibility with DOS 6.2-- not even
compatible with other versions of DOS. From what I've heard
so far, only OS/2 has really found a solid way around it, and
the existance of that is complete hearsay.
Well, there's my monthly 2 for this group. Back to
occasional lurking here.
Bruce Gingery br...@TotSysSoft.com
Alex Currier
Nicholson) writes:
> myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote
> >By the way, I am sorry your experiences with NeXTStep have been less than
> >gratifying but (and I would tell this to my own mother) if it isn't working
> >for you maybe you *should* just use something else. Pretty good advice, I
> >think.
>
> Why should he? Because he'll then be silenced? Or you won't have to
> listen to him anymore? Regardless of wether Mark's comments effect
> potential sales or not _nobody_ deserves to be treated that way. It's
> his investment he can chose what he wants to do with it. Like I said
> earlier, there isn't anything else worth using and when there is I'm
> sure everybody will "just use something else"
From a "strictly business" point of view, if you invest in something and it
just doesn't pan out you have two options really, fight with it and waste
(more) time and energy with a non-workable situation or cut your losses and
walk away from it. Mark could easily sell off his NeXT hardware and buy
something that will work better for him (he could take the trade up to Sun
deal or some such) which would make a lot more sense than struggling with a
non-functional computer (as he seems to feel the NeXT is). I honestly don't
care which he does and I don't mind reading his (often entertaining and
sometimes informative) posts. Recall I was not one of the people who made
"it's Karma" comments... I just felt he was jumping to conclusions by blaming
the OS before testing for the problem. Mark can stay or go as he pleases but I
think he's wasting *his own* time by hanging on to NeXTStep if he truly feels
it is useless (an opinion he's been stating here for quite some time now).
In any case, I'm dropping the subject. I've had more than my say about it.
Nathan F. Janette
Weiss) writes:
> Mark, most of us no longer care what you think. We don't care if your
> predictions are true. We don't care if your technical comments are
> relevant. We are tired of "the sky is falling" attitude in your notes.
Reality check, Jerry: you have no idea what most of "us" think about Mark
Crispin, so how about confining your comments to your own opinions?
IMHO, Mark has added much more to the interesting content of these
newsgroups than most of his flamers. I often disagree with his
opinions, but I'd miss them if he stopped posting.
So put him in your kill file, and be happy again. I'll gut it out ;-)
--
Nathan "USENET" Janette
PPP link from hilbert.csb.yale.edu
Please reply to: nat...@laplace.csb.yale.edu (NeXT)
flas...@dsi.com
> I also have not been able to read a macintosh formatted floppy under 3.2.
> Since I did not try to read such a floppy under 3.0 or 3.1, I can't say
> whether this is a recent problem or not. But the disc read fine on a
> Macintosh.
Hm. Personally, I use Mac disks exclusively with my 3.2 Cube, and haven't had
any trouble. Heck, my cube formats Mac disks better than most Macs.
It's probably the disk.
- Jon
--
Jonathan W. Hendry Inexpensive NeXTSTEP Consulting
tjhe...@mcs.drexel.edu For Your "Not-So-Mission-Critical" Apps
flas...@dsi.com
<m...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM> writes:
>
> As for the weenie comments (e.g. ``karma'', or ``get a new OS''), such as
> excellent examples of why many vendors don't want to touch the NeXT
> community with a 10-foot pole. Such comments make the entire NeXT community
> look bad and only serve to validate the image of NEXTSTEP as being a fringe
> system.
I'm sure weenie comments are a big factor when vendors are considering what
platforms to use or develop for.
"We don't plan on supporting NeXTSTEP. Not so much because of the small
installed base and reported instability of NeXT, but primarily because some of
the users are weenies. We've studied the demographics and concluded that the
vocal weenie minority heavily outweighs the financial, military, medical,
legal, and intelligence markets which use NeXTSTEP."
Personally, I just find it amusing that the person who rails against NeXTSTEP
most has been afflicted with a (rather severe) bug which no one else has
reported. As if that weren't enough, you characteristically report it in a post
which basically has an attitude of "I've had a problem. Obviously this means
NeXTSTEP 3.2 is an unusable, buggy piece of software. Never mind the
overwhelming lack of evidence to the contrary, and the fact that this problem
hasn't been reported before on the net. It happened to me, therefore it is a
universal bug, thus NeXTSTEP must be worthless. It could not possibly be a
problem with my machine or my software."
--
Jonathan W. Hendry Inexpensive NeXTSTEP Consulting
tjhe...@mcs.drexel.edu For Your "Not-So-Mission-Critical" Apps
Major: CIS
Mark Crispin
>I've had a problem. Obviously this means
>NeXTSTEP 3.2 is an unusable, buggy piece of software. Never mind the
>overwhelming lack of evidence to the contrary, and the fact that this problem
>hasn't been reported before on the net. It happened to me, therefore it is a
>universal bug, thus NeXTSTEP must be worthless. It could not possibly be a
>problem with my machine or my software.
Johnny, take a Valium. You are hallucinating. I never said anything of the
sort. To be so defensive, it sounds like you yourself are worried about the
quality of your NEXTSTEP software.
There *have* been corroborations to my my report, and in particular the belief
that doing an upgrade (instead of a complete reinstall) and/or the use of the
brightness keys before the windowserver starts may lead to crashes.
The most probable explanation for the inode clobberage is that the bug which
cause the crashes damaged some filesystem update code without immediately
crashing the system. It is probably going to be extremely unlikely to
reproduce this particular problem.
If you are not concerned about the possibility that such a serious bug may
exist, that is your concern.
Garance A. Drosehn
> I probably risk alienating myself from some of the diehard NeXT fans
> in this group but I don't think that people should be told to shut up
> when you don't like what they are saying. This is advocacy after
> all. It's no holds bared in here, get use to it.
Actually, *this* whole thread is in comp.sys.next.bugs. It is
not "no hold bared" in here.
The thread does not belong here (not the flamefest, at least -- Mark's
original article was an attempt to pin down the circumstances of some
bug, so that certainly does belong).
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = g...@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
Deborah Howland
>I am on the trail of what seems to be an honest-to-goodness bug that caused
>the filesystem clobberage. The problem is in drawing up a reliable scenario
>to reproduce the problem.
And the pain of reproducing the scenario, if you manage it. :)
>Things to watch out for:
> 1) doing an upgrade instead of a full install from scratch
> 2) usage of the login window's restart button instead of double-command-`
> and halt
> 3) usage of the brightness keys while the system is starting (and before the
> window manager has run)
Just to inject my own 2 cents regarding the substance of this thread
(and trying to side-step the flammage): I've done 1) and lived to tell
about it, can't say I've done 2) or 3).
However:
I was peacefully running a fairly stock black slab with 3.0 (no kernel
servers, in particular) when my external 1.2GB drive flamed out sort of
like Mark described, only more so: scores of media errors and bad
sectors, crashes, kernel panics, etc. This built up gradually over
about 5 days until my system was totally unbootable, unfsckable, and
unusable.
The drive appeared to be physically toasted, as I was unable to get it
back even by trying a low-level format. I concluded the drive itself
had failed, rather than any software on it, so I sent it back to the
vendor for replacement under warranty.
Several weeks later :(, I now have a new drive and am just wrapping up
a scratch install of NS 3.2. I have so far encountered no difficulties
except for a few blown apps recovered from the semi-fragged filesystems
I backed up on a DAT drive I bought following hard disk death (call me
stupid/lazy, but I'm lucky :).
The moral of my story: confirmation of NS 3.2 stability after a scratch
install (touch wood), and a recommendation to make sure your disk is
physically okay.
Sidebar: while my main drive was off being replaced, I ran a much-
reduced system off my internal 105MB drive, which had 3.2 on it,
upgraded from 3.1, upgraded from 3.0, upgraded from 2.1. No problems
to report after several weeks of use.
Royce Howland
dhow...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (wife's account)
Joe Freeman
(Robert Nicholson) writes:
> myc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote
I would be a log easier if NewsGrazer supported kill files.
--
Joe Freeman
FreemanSoft Inc. A NEXTSTEP software and consulting services company.
Electronic Mail: J...@FreemanSoft.com (NeXT Mail)
Voice: 919.783.7033
Michael B. Johnson
>>In article <CJp6o...@nextsrv1.andi.org> c_a...@rsgreet.andi.org (Christopher
>>Avery) writes:
>>> I also have not been able to read a macintosh formatted floppy under 3.2.
>>> Since I did not try to read such a floppy under 3.0 or 3.1, I can't say
>>> whether this is a recent problem or not. But the disc read fine on a
>>> Macintosh.
>>
>>Hm. Personally, I use Mac disks exclusively with my 3.2 Cube, and haven't had
>>any trouble. Heck, my cube formats Mac disks better than most Macs.
>>
>>It's probably the disk.
>>
Well, if he tried more than one disk, it's probably not the disk. If you
ever ran an old copy of Executor and it crashed badly, it might have moved
your /usr/filesystems/mac.fs somewhere so that it could catch disk insertions.
You might sniff around there... I believe current versions of Executor
don't ever mess up on this anymore.
--
--> Michael B. Johnson -- wa...@media.mit.edu
--> MIT Media Lab -- Computer Graphics & Animation Group
--> 20 Ames St. E15-023G -- (617) 547-0563 (day office)
--> Cambridge, MA 02139 -- (617) 253-0663 (night office)
Stefano Pagiola
> > In mean time either read his postings or don't, it's that simple.
>
> I would be a log easier if NewsGrazer supported kill files.
It does. But it calls it "filtering." (perhaps in response to all
those complaints about "too much violence on the screen" :-).
cmd-k puts the subject of the currently-selected article in the
"filter" file. cmd-j does the same for the author's name, cmd-l for
the author's account number. Look in the group menu.
--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spag...@leland.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
spag...@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Steen Kroyer
> Alex Currier -
>
> Have you thought about the consequences of what you state?
>
> Suppose I did give up on using the NEXTSTEP operating system. Then my
> comment would be that I had to give up on NEXTSTEP because I was unusable.
???
Come now Mark, surely that is being too modest ..... (;-)
--
@-------------------------------@------------------------------@
| Steen Kroyer | |
| Email/NeXTMail: s...@dannug.dk | * This Space For Rent * |
| Fax (home) : +45 98574459 | |
@-------------------------------@------------------------------@
ji...@oingo.umn.edu
> for you maybe you *should* just use something else. Pretty good advice, I
> think.
>
Bjoern Kriews
>This is not an evidence of the low quality of the NeXT community or the
>fringeness of NeXTStep, it is an evidence that the NeXT community (such as it
>is here) is getting bored of hearing you go on about NeXTStep and some people
>feel you're just beating your own personal dead horse.
I WANT him around because he investigates kernel bugs instead of ignoring
them.
We can't help if some of you only use your machine to do wordprocessing
or whatever - that's what these machines are built for.
But please accept that other people want Unix when they buy Unix and
complain if they get crashes instead of Unix.
Unix is a registered bell etc...
--
b...@drdhh.hanse.de - Bjoern Kriews - Stormsweg 6 - D-22085 Hamburg [76] - FRG
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
Bjoern Kriews
>Things to watch out for:
> 1) doing an upgrade instead of a full install from scratch
> 2) usage of the login window's restart button instead of double-command-`
> and halt
> 3) usage of the brightness keys while the system is starting (and before the
> window manager has run)
My system once crashed when I hit Brightness-Keys at this time.
Tip - and panic.
>Transsys SLIP is still under investigation as a possible factor, but there has
>been no evidence to date blame Mamakos.
No transsys slip with me - just free ppp 0.3, non active at this time.
>As for the weenie comments (e.g. ``karma'', or ``get a new OS''), such as
>excellent examples of why many vendors don't want to touch the NeXT community
>with a 10-foot pole. Such comments make the entire NeXT community look bad
>and only serve to validate the image of NEXTSTEP as being a fringe system.
I support that. Sure, it's not nice to talk down ones baby, but I hate
a system that panics every now and then - what I want is a NeXTSTEP that
runs with the reliablity of a well patched SUNOS 4.1.3.
I want to be able to look people straight in the eye,
saying: Use NS, it's superior and reliable.
I also understand Marks comments - I know my own annoyed face when I come
home and just see some small rectangle on the screen - wishing it said
DON'T PANIC in large friendly letters - but it does not.
Let's kick NeXT to make it an even better product.
Regards, Bjoern
Joe Rosenfeld
: myc...@colourbox.utexas.edu (Alex Currier) writes:
: >This is not an evidence of the low quality of the NeXT community or the
: >fringeness of NeXTStep, it is an evidence that the NeXT community (such as it
: >is here) is getting bored of hearing you go on about NeXTStep and some people
: >feel you're just beating your own personal dead horse.
: I WANT him around because he investigates kernel bugs instead of ignoring
: them.
I agree. Mark is treated so unfaily by NeXT users that I cannot
believe it. His heart is in the right place. He wants NeXT to
fulfill its potential. All this Mark Crispin bashing is almost
mindless, like mob violence.
Give the guy a break.
Cowboy
Fabien Roy
Think it very easy to test the disk for bad reading blocks:
as root type dd if=/dev/rsd0a of=/dev/null bs=512k
and some time later:
812+1 records in
812+1 records out
which says I have a wealthy 400Meg drive.
--Fabien
___________________________________________________________________
Fabien Roy fab...@free.fdn.org
NeXTmail OK
douglas_b._moore
It would be great if all Mark did was kernel debugging, but in this case
there doesn't seem to be a bug for most of us. I've got 3.2 running on
both a mono station and an ND turbo. None of the symptoms described are
found here in my living room. I also have Marble Teleconnect doing it's
kernel modifications along with those used by the ND. Don't tell me this
operating system panics at the drop of a hat, I haven't had a panic window
since last spring.
We are all for getting the most out of our systems. Yes, there are things
which can be improved. Let's keep looking for the legitimate bugs and
leave the disgruntled mudslinging out of this pursuit.
----
Douglas Moore
172 East Sixth Street #2106
St Paul, MN 55101
612-227-3274
dmo...@maroon.tc.umn.edu <---NeXTMail ready