Just a thought

2 vues
Accéder directement au premier message non lu

Ozymandias

non lue,
28 mai 2001, 17:21:5128/05/2001
à
Hi all,

As I was testing my nostalgy on some old MSX games, and I couldn't help this
little thought wondering through my mind: Why are all the MSX emulaters so
darn bad ? Who in the name of f$%#$n h#%@ (pardon my french) got it in his
mind that emulating an 8 bit, non pipelined 8MHz processor cannot be done on
a 32 bit 300MHz pentium with 2 piplines of each 12 depth (If I am not
mistaken) with branch prediction, 32k cache, fpu, MMX and all those other
nifty things?
Yes I think that sucks! Man I got an gpu (matrox g400 32MB) which could in
theory do all the emulating itself! Once I had an emulator that did pretty
good, runned even on an 486, but not under win2000? Noooo that would have
been too cool.

I want an MSX emulator that can at least run one instance of MSX (fullscreen
AND windowed), whilest I can still play mp3's have icq running, outlook,
words and all that shit: I WANT A REAL MSX EMULATOR !!!!!

but people, lets be honest, with all respect for those who putted time and
energy into an emulator, why why why are the current emulaters that bad? I
just read about the revival MSX project, what a laugh, why emulating an msx
when the are selling renewed and integrated Z80's (again)? And YES the
hilarious fact that the emulator is going to be based on fMSX ??? Why why
why dear people? I can allmost cry. My dream is still that one day there
will be a pda MSX (full keyboard though), just plain regular MSX, and very
cheap, that way the MSX will become popular again. What if you could buy an
$10 MSX computer in the store? Interfaced with some cheap rom and/or ram
plugin card (flash) danm, that would be good. Whell, didn't mean to upset
anyone or even be this negative. But this is just my penny.

greetz Ozy

Diogo Ferreira da Costa Patrao

non lue,
28 mai 2001, 18:27:2828/05/2001
à
On Mon, 28 May 2001, Ozymandias wrote:

> Hi all,


>
> Yes I think that sucks! Man I got an gpu (matrox g400 32MB) which could in
> theory do all the emulating itself! Once I had an emulator that did pretty
> good, runned even on an 486, but not under win2000? Noooo that would have
> been too cool.

you're running windows?

> I want an MSX emulator that can at least run one instance of MSX (fullscreen
> AND windowed), whilest I can still play mp3's have icq running, outlook,
> words and all that shit: I WANT A REAL MSX EMULATOR !!!!!

run linux. in my 586 133mhz (16mb ram) the fmsx runs very fast, and with a
faster machine I think you can run (l)icq, netscape, (s)office and all
that you want.

in a even better machine, you can also emulate a 386 and run windows, if
you want ^_^

--------------------------- __,-.__
``Take me to your leader'' / \
|(-) (=\|
djogo patrao `. _ ,\\
http://socrates.if.usp.br/~djogo `-' |\

Faltam 5 relatorios para acabar o lab

Randy M. Wintjes <NL>

non lue,
28 mai 2001, 18:52:1328/05/2001
à
okay, like Diogo sayed. Windows (or dos) are bad os'es for emulation.
I think the whole x86 is a no good cpu. have you ever seen smooth scrolling
complex things in windows, dos or even linux without the support of a 3d
card. thats right. like an msx, c64 or the best example... the Amiga 500 /
1200 the PC CAN'T display smooth scrolling whithout a choppy a-sych screen
once in a few seconds.
BUT... and yes, you can still recall those nostalgic feelings with your
PC...

I thought I got crazy but it is really true.
I have a c64 emulator that is not smooth at all on my monitor. I conect the
pc with my televisionset and the same emulator was 100% like the c64.
I did not try it with the msx emu, but i'm sure it will work (it has
something to do with te refreshrate of the monitor that is a-sync with the
emulator.
try it, if you have a TV-output on you videocard.

Randy.


Anne de Raad

non lue,
29 mai 2001, 05:31:3629/05/2001
à
> hilarious fact that the emulator is going to be based on
> fMSX ??? Why why

Yes, you're right. I don't think they really suck, but they
are not good enough. I realise a perfect emulator is a
utopia, but I do have the feeling they can be better. I
haven't seen one emulator who emulates the startup-sequence
of the MSX2 (smooth MSX2-logo scroll) correctly.

I also don't like the whole image-idea. Many original
software had a copyprotection. An image of such a disk
simply doesn't work. There are SO many images available
which don't work at all. I think an MSX emulator should
emulate an MSX. the PC-drive should be drive A. It would be
nice the PC HD could be used as a drive.

The only emulator I really like is the one from
CJS/Compujunks (Ronald Gorter, Filosoft). I even forgot the
name of this emulator though, I only use real MSX-machines.
I don't have any MSX-emulator installed on my PC's...

Furthermore. Yes, the MSX PLAYER (official ASCII
MSX-emulator) is based on fMSX. BUT, and Perhaps Marat can
confirm this: I heard the sources of fMSX are partially
being rewritten to achieve a higher level. Maybe MSX PLAYER
will be the best emulator around. I sure hope so, else it
won't be successfull....:(

Greetings,

Anne de Raad


Hans Guijt

non lue,
2 juin 2001, 05:58:0302/06/2001
à
Anne de Raad (ag.d...@quicknet.nl) wrote:
>> hilarious fact that the emulator is going to be based on
>> fMSX ??? Why why

>Yes, you're right. I don't think they really suck, but they
>are not good enough. I realise a perfect emulator is a
>utopia, but I do have the feeling they can be better. I
>haven't seen one emulator who emulates the startup-sequence
>of the MSX2 (smooth MSX2-logo scroll) correctly.

AmiMSX does an incredible job on that. Ouch, it hurt me to say that ;-)

AmiMSX works by keeping the entire VRAM in pre-converted Amiga format. It
simply manipulates the Amiga videobeam in exact synchronization with the
MSX videobeam, thus it allows a perfect smooth logo scroll and even
correct emulation of those flickery partial lines you sometimes see on
scanline interrupts.

>I also don't like the whole image-idea. Many original
>software had a copyprotection. An image of such a disk
>simply doesn't work. There are SO many images available
>which don't work at all. I think an MSX emulator should
>emulate an MSX. the PC-drive should be drive A. It would be
>nice the PC HD could be used as a drive.

Actually I think there should be a standardized way of describing what
each disk image (or rom image, or tape image) needs: MSX type, amount of
memory, slot configuration, ROM-type, supported soundchips, ... That
description should be computer-readable (something like XML would be great
for this) so that emulators could use it to auto-configure themselves. I
think that would save a lot of problems with apparently broken images.

Something similar exists for fMSX Amiga (look, I cannot help it that I
cannot post here without mentioning it at least once ok!). However, that
format is based on Amiga icons (which can carry extra tags), and is not
particularly useful for other systems.

The description could also carry useful information for players, such as
required language.


Hans Guijt

Hans Guijt

non lue,
2 juin 2001, 05:59:2702/06/2001
à
Ozymandias (o...@dds.nl) wrote:
>As I was testing my nostalgy on some old MSX games, and I couldn't help this
>little thought wondering through my mind: Why are all the MSX emulaters so
>darn bad ? Who in the name of f$%#$n h#%@ (pardon my french) got it in his
>mind that emulating an 8 bit, non pipelined 8MHz processor cannot be done on
>a 32 bit 300MHz pentium with 2 piplines of each 12 depth (If I am not
>mistaken) with branch prediction, 32k cache, fpu, MMX and all those other
>nifty things?

Possibly because the authors of most emulators cannot be bothered to do
assembly coding (that is not a criticism and it does not point towards
laziness, but it is *true*). In 99% of all software projects that doesn't
matter much, but in the case of CPU emulation there is such a great
advantage to be gained from directly tapping into assembly (the normal '10%
speed difference' rule doesn't apply here).

For example, in assembly you can directly use the flags of the host CPU to
emulate the flags of the Z80. And you can use an in-line dispatcher that is
many times faster than any C-based alternative can hope to be. And (at
least on CPUs with lots of registers) you can permanently registerize many
Z80 registers.

I have done all these things in fMSX Amiga, and it performs at roughly
Turbo-R levels on a 50MHz 68060 machine.

Other reasons are that X86 chips suck (generally speaking). And I would
imagine that if I ever started on an MSX emulator for PC, I would be
thinking "Hmm, I have a 900MHz Thunderbird under my desk. It has a GeForce
2 GTS and 256MB of RAM, and I *really* cannot be bothered to support people
who have anything less than that."

This last bit may sound heartless and cruel, but given the fact that such a
project would be a hobby project (you cannot expect to make any serious
amount of money from it) it has to be fun for me too.

Unless of course someone out there wants to pay my normal hourly rate for
developing an MSX emulator that flies on slow hardware...? Enquiries are
welcome ;-)


Hans Guijt

Manuel Bilderbeek

non lue,
5 juin 2001, 14:51:5705/06/2001
à m...@stack.nl
> Actually I think there should be a standardized way of describing what
> each disk image (or rom image, or tape image) needs: MSX type, amount of
> memory, slot configuration, ROM-type, supported soundchips, ... That
> description should be computer-readable (something like XML would be great
> for this) so that emulators could use it to auto-configure themselves. I
> think that would save a lot of problems with apparently broken images.
>
> Something similar exists for fMSX Amiga (look, I cannot help it that I
> cannot post here without mentioning it at least once ok!). However, that
> format is based on Amiga icons (which can carry extra tags), and is not
> particularly useful for other systems.
>
> The description could also carry useful information for players, such as
> required language.

Wasn't there a plan for this? The .msx format? A discussion WHICH
COMPLETELY DIED WITHOUT ANY RESULT! :-(

Grtjs, Manuel (Please reply to my new address: man...@msxnet.org)

PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? The Ultimate MSX FAQ: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/)
PPS: Visit my home page at http://bilderbeek.cjb.net/

Répondre à tous
Répondre à l'auteur
Transférer
0 nouveau message