Re: Nice to see the new newsgroup at individual.net

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

In article <1l1xtg2.aqwexr1jd3phzN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,
jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Me too, if you'll forgive the 'me too' response. I've an old Quadra 700,
> two dead CRT G3 iMacs, and a PM7300 with a severe intermittent hardware
> fault *sigh* Realistically I'm not sure any of my old Macs will ever
> work properly again.

What's the nature of the 7300 fault? If it's intermittent it could be bad
RAM, I had this on my 9600. Strip all the RAM out and boot it one stick at
a time to see if you can pin it down to a single stick that's gone off.

--
-------------------
Stephen Thomas Cole
-------------------

[Barry OGrady]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:59:09 +0100, REMOVEste...@REMOVEgmail.com
(Stephen Thomas Cole) wrote:

>In article <1l1xtg2.aqwexr1jd3phzN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,
>jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>
>> Me too, if you'll forgive the 'me too' response. I've an old Quadra 700,
>> two dead CRT G3 iMacs, and a PM7300 with a severe intermittent hardware
>> fault *sigh* Realistically I'm not sure any of my old Macs will ever
>> work properly again.
>
>What's the nature of the 7300 fault? If it's intermittent it could be bad
>RAM, I had this on my 9600. Strip all the RAM out and boot it one stick at
>a time to see if you can pin it down to a single stick that's gone off.

I have a tower G5 with 2 GB RAM which suddenly started flashing
the power light in a sequence which indicated bad RAM.
I replaced the 2 x 1 Gig with 2x 256 meg which proved the RAM
fault. I now have all four chips in and working. It seems it only
needed the RAM to be reseated.

[Barry OGrady]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:08:25 +1200, jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie
Kahn Genet) wrote:

>Steve Bonine <s...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope it is as successful as the Mac hardware in discusses.

>
>Me too, if you'll forgive the 'me too' response. I've an old Quadra 700,
>two dead CRT G3 iMacs,

I forgot to mention I also have a working CRT G3 iMac.
In case its not too off topic I have a 386 "lunchbox"
portable with an orange plasma screen!

>Regards,
> Jamie Kahn Genet

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

In article <u5gkn8tgc7iru361e...@4ax.com>, Barry OGrady

Duff RAM is an incredibly common issue, especially with machines 10+ years
old. It's always the first thing I check when something goes belly up! A
dead giveaway is if a problem's intermittant. The machine might run
perfectly fine until it tries to address a particular part of a bad stick
of RAM and then it'll fall over. Obviously, you may run the machine for
varying amounts of time until you do something that prompts it to access
the bad area of memory, hence the intermittant nature!

--

[Jamie Kahn Genet]

PhillipJones <pjon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Barry OGrady wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:45:57 -0500, Steve Bonine<s...@pobox.com>

> > wrote:
> >
> >> I hope it is as successful as the Mac hardware in discusses.
> >

> > Also now at borg.net.
> >
>
> You will be assimilated.

Speaking of which, I think we should be more picky about who we
assimilate into the group this time around. How about no nujobs for
example? :-)
--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[Jamie Kahn Genet]

Stephen Thomas Cole <REMOVEste...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:

> In article <1l1xtg2.aqwexr1jd3phzN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,
> jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>
> > Me too, if you'll forgive the 'me too' response. I've an old Quadra 700,
> > two dead CRT G3 iMacs, and a PM7300 with a severe intermittent hardware
> > fault *sigh* Realistically I'm not sure any of my old Macs will ever
> > work properly again.
>
> What's the nature of the 7300 fault? If it's intermittent it could be bad
> RAM, I had this on my 9600. Strip all the RAM out and boot it one stick at
> a time to see if you can pin it down to a single stick that's gone off.

Yeah, tried that (and it's good advice :-) ), as well as replacing the
cache card and video, also tried a PCI G3 CPU card just in case that
might bypass something not working on the main motherboard. Oh and I
also tried booting from an external HD in case the internal one was
causing the issue. The intermittent problem happens within seconds to
minutes after booting up. But it's fairly reliable, if not tied to any
particular activity I can identify.

So if it is the RAM, it's all four sticks. All I know is I'm unwilling
to throw more money at the problem. I'd really rather get working
software-based emulation, as that way I don't have to try to keep
elderly and unreliable hardware going. I can just emulate classic Mac
hardware on my current system. That's what I do with nearly every other
favourite computer (including other 68K systems like the Amiga) and game
console, but for some reason classic Mac emulation stalled in the early
2000's and never really recovered - or not that I've noticed :-\

What I try to do nowadays is find a DOS, Amiga, Atari or even console
port of the app in question. Especially DOS, as DOSBox and Boxer makes
running old DOS apps a piece of cake. But Mac versions, e.g. Armor Alley
or Doom, were often better with Mac UI features and higher resolutions
than the DOS version.

I miss my lime Rev C G3 iMac. Running MacOS 8.6 it was the most backward
and forward (with the Carbon extension installed) compatible MacOS ever.
I could run some software from 1984 (I forget the name - but one in
particular that I enjoyed showing people on my modern Mac in 1999 was a
Maze Wars type game that, IIRC, was developed before the Mac was even
released) through to games being developed using Carbon that ran on 8.6
- OS X 10.x.

[D Finnigan]

Now it's funny you say that, because I've only had bad RAM in two different
machines out of about 10. One was in the Extended 80-Columns card of an
Apple IIe, and the other was a SIMM for a Mac LC that I wanted to use to
upgrade its memory, but would cause the Mac LC to make a sad Mac at boot.


--
]DF$
Apple II Book: http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Usenet: http://macgui.com/usenet/ <-- get posts by email!
Apple II Web & Blog hosting: http://a2hq.com/

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

In article <1l1yk3u.10enmlu1jmu8yhN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,

jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Yeah, tried that (and it's good advice :-) ), as well as replacing the
> cache card and video, also tried a PCI G3 CPU card just in case that
> might bypass something not working on the main motherboard. Oh and I
> also tried booting from an external HD in case the internal one was
> causing the issue. The intermittent problem happens within seconds to
> minutes after booting up. But it's fairly reliable, if not tied to any
> particular activity I can identify.
> So if it is the RAM, it's all four sticks. All I know is I'm unwilling
> to throw more money at the problem.

That's a real puzzler, then, the worst kind of computer problem! Could be
the caps, or it could be many other things I suppose. You'll not find out
without investing time and money in spares and, like you say, is it worth
it? Probably worth keeping an eye on ebay for a spare motherboard, if
you're lucky you might find a working one for a small sum and if you're
able to swap boards and ressurect it, great!

> I'd really rather get working
> software-based emulation, as that way I don't have to try to keep
> elderly and unreliable hardware going. I can just emulate classic Mac
> hardware on my current system. That's what I do with nearly every other
> favourite computer (including other 68K systems like the Amiga) and game
> console, but for some reason classic Mac emulation stalled in the early
> 2000's and never really recovered - or not that I've noticed :-\

I've never invested any time in Mac emulation, other than an aborted
effort trying to emulate Mac OS on my Amiga 1200. Now *that* was a
nightmare... ;)

>
> What I try to do nowadays is find a DOS, Amiga, Atari or even console
> port of the app in question. Especially DOS, as DOSBox and Boxer makes
> running old DOS apps a piece of cake. But Mac versions, e.g. Armor Alley
> or Doom, were often better with Mac UI features and higher resolutions
> than the DOS version.
>
> I miss my lime Rev C G3 iMac. Running MacOS 8.6 it was the most backward
> and forward (with the Carbon extension installed) compatible MacOS ever.
> I could run some software from 1984 (I forget the name - but one in
> particular that I enjoyed showing people on my modern Mac in 1999 was a
> Maze Wars type game that, IIRC, was developed before the Mac was even
> released) through to games being developed using Carbon that ran on 8.6
> - OS X 10.x.

The G3 iMac was a great computer. I had several over the last few years,
my favourite being a 600Mhz Snow edition, absolute beauty of a machine and
I regret selling that one.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

In article <dog_cow-1...@macgui.com>, D Finnigan

<dog...@macgui.com> wrote:

> Now it's funny you say that, because I've only had bad RAM in two different
> machines out of about 10. One was in the Extended 80-Columns card of an
> Apple IIe, and the other was a SIMM for a Mac LC that I wanted to use to
> upgrade its memory, but would cause the Mac LC to make a sad Mac at boot.

Yeah, saying that it is "incredibly common" is painting with too broad a
brush. What I should have said is that, out of all the 2 or 3 dozen Macs
I've owned, about half or so had dodgy RAM when I've bought them. Most
were £1 from ebay buys, though, had often been abused or stored badly and
were mostly getting on for 20 years old, so that was no surprise really so
is always worth checking on a new (to you) machine or one just out of the
attic that is playing up. Other than that and the issues with the PowerMac
9600, I don't think I've had many other problems, certainly not in the way
of RAM spontaneously failing in an otherwise working setup anymore than
once or possibly twice.

[Hauke Fath]

Jamie Kahn Genet <jam...@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> So if it is the RAM, it's all four sticks.

Have you checked with NewerTech's RAMometer
<http://www.newertech.com/downloads/Software/GaugePRO11.hqx>?

Absent BIOS options, and with nothing resembling memtester on !intel
Macs, it is the closest thing to a thorough memory check. It found a bad
SIMM for me once (30 pin 16 MB x 8, ouch).

hauke

--
Now without signature.

[D Finnigan]

Steve Bonine wrote:
> I hope it is as successful as the Mac hardware in discusses.
>

We're on Google groups as of about 18 hours ago.

This is either, I believe, because the latest two groups .raspberry-pi and
.vintage are technical in nature and thus some managers at Google have been
following the RFD, or that the system has increased response times to
newgroup messages from the Big-8.

Any opinions on these two theories?

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

D Finnigan <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
> Steve Bonine wrote:
>> I hope it is as successful as the Mac hardware in discusses.
>>
>
> We're on Google groups as of about 18 hours ago.
>
> This is either, I believe, because the latest two groups .raspberry-pi and
> .vintage are technical in nature and thus some managers at Google have been
> following the RFD, or that the system has increased response times to
> newgroup messages from the Big-8.
>
> Any opinions on these two theories?

I can't imagine it's the latter really, what would have compelled them to
tighten up their Usenet operation all of a sudden in 2013 as opposed to any
point in the last decade? Option A sounds much more likely.

Semi-related, the new layout of Google Groups is bloody horrible, IMO.
Bloated as all hell too, it's unusable on my G5 tower, slow as molasses and
often doesn't work at all (using TenFourFox). Even on my Intel MBP it
barely works in Firefox or Safari!

[Hauke Fath]

Stephen Thomas Cole <REMOVEste...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:

> D Finnigan <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
> > Steve Bonine wrote:
> >> I hope it is as successful as the Mac hardware in discusses.
> >>
> >
> > We're on Google groups as of about 18 hours ago.

Oh dear, the end of the innocence...

> Semi-related, the new layout of Google Groups is bloody horrible, IMO.
> Bloated as all hell too, it's unusable on my G5 tower, slow as molasses and
> often doesn't work at all (using TenFourFox). Even on my Intel MBP it
> barely works in Firefox or Safari!

I jump through the many ridiclous hoops back to the old Google Groups
whenever I have to peruse the USENET archive. For me, the final nail in
the newfangled version's coffin is that it does not support
non-proportional fonts.

[Jamie Kahn Genet]

Stephen Thomas Cole <REMOVEste...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:

> In article <1l1yk3u.10enmlu1jmu8yhN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,
> jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>
> > Yeah, tried that (and it's good advice :-) ), as well as replacing the
> > cache card and video, also tried a PCI G3 CPU card just in case that
> > might bypass something not working on the main motherboard. Oh and I
> > also tried booting from an external HD in case the internal one was
> > causing the issue. The intermittent problem happens within seconds to
> > minutes after booting up. But it's fairly reliable, if not tied to any
> > particular activity I can identify.
> > So if it is the RAM, it's all four sticks. All I know is I'm unwilling
> > to throw more money at the problem.
>
> That's a real puzzler, then, the worst kind of computer problem! Could be
> the caps, or it could be many other things I suppose. You'll not find out
> without investing time and money in spares and, like you say, is it worth
> it? Probably worth keeping an eye on ebay for a spare motherboard, if
> you're lucky you might find a working one for a small sum and if you're
> able to swap boards and ressurect it, great!

Yeah, I'm not short of room so I'll keep it around just in case I run
across another I can borrow parts from, or the parts themselves for for
very little effort or cost. Same goes for all my other dead or dying old
Macs, heh.

> > I'd really rather get working
> > software-based emulation, as that way I don't have to try to keep
> > elderly and unreliable hardware going. I can just emulate classic Mac
> > hardware on my current system. That's what I do with nearly every other
> > favourite computer (including other 68K systems like the Amiga) and game
> > console, but for some reason classic Mac emulation stalled in the early
> > 2000's and never really recovered - or not that I've noticed :-\
>
> I've never invested any time in Mac emulation, other than an aborted
> effort trying to emulate Mac OS on my Amiga 1200. Now *that* was a
> nightmare... ;)

LOL, wow. I'm surprised that's even possible.

> > What I try to do nowadays is find a DOS, Amiga, Atari or even console
> > port of the app in question. Especially DOS, as DOSBox and Boxer makes
> > running old DOS apps a piece of cake. But Mac versions, e.g. Armor Alley
> > or Doom, were often better with Mac UI features and higher resolutions
> > than the DOS version.
> >
> > I miss my lime Rev C G3 iMac. Running MacOS 8.6 it was the most backward
> > and forward (with the Carbon extension installed) compatible MacOS ever.
> > I could run some software from 1984 (I forget the name - but one in
> > particular that I enjoyed showing people on my modern Mac in 1999 was a
> > Maze Wars type game that, IIRC, was developed before the Mac was even
> > released) through to games being developed using Carbon that ran on 8.6
> > - OS X 10.x.
>
> The G3 iMac was a great computer. I had several over the last few years,
> my favourite being a 600Mhz Snow edition, absolute beauty of a machine and
> I regret selling that one.

Yeah that was a very cool design - probably the most attractive after
the rev a and b bondi blue models (which I later bought - a rev b model
- second hand, a few years after buying my rev c lime one brand new).

If I had the money and was willing to risk it on another elderly Mac
likely to fail, I'd go for the last and most powerful G3 Mac able to run
MacOS 8.6 that was ever released - the blue and white G3 tower. With an
upgrade G3 card, max RAM, 128MB+ video card, and a fast HD with high
cache, it would be one sweet classic gaming machine.

But nowadays I just don't trust computer hardware to last. With
increasing complexity, far greater heat, and lower build quality, I've
seen desktop computers of all brands become disposable devices. That
combined with my increasing need to live on a budget, is why - despite
preferring the 'feel' and experience of old hardware - I'd rather go
with software emulation. That way with backup and increasing computing
power I need never lose any of my old computing and console setups, nor
the ability to run them. Even if I have to eventually emulate the system
an old emulator ran on, however recursive that gets.

However if I was rich I'd say the hell with the cost, and maintain:

- a Mac SE/30 (favourite B&W compact Mac) with passthrough PDS external
colour video to ethernet cards

- a IIci (my all time favourite expandable classic Mac)

- a Quadra 900 series for '040 power

- a PowerBook 550c - top of the line '040 portable

- a bondi blue rev b CRT iMac upgraded with a voodoo graphics card in
that weird little side upgrade slot it had

- and finally a blue and white G3 tower with all possible upgrades while
still being able to run MAcOS 8.6

A man can dream, right? :-)

[Howard S Shubs]

In article <1l21oqt.20n79yjnw3e1N%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,

I have a "beige" G3 upgraded to a G4 which could be available... I'd
even send it with a 15" Sony monitor! woot.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

In article <1l21oqt.20n79yjnw3e1N%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,

jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Stephen Thomas Cole <REMOVEste...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:
> > I've never invested any time in Mac emulation, other than an aborted
> > effort trying to emulate Mac OS on my Amiga 1200. Now *that* was a
> > nightmare... ;)
>
> LOL, wow. I'm surprised that's even possible.

Yeah, it's mad isn't it. I was using ShapeShifter, which eventually went
on to become the SheepShaver emulator! ShapeShifter was an absolute pig to
get working properly, although I did more or less get it going a couple of
times, got as far as loading the OS7 installer before it always went belly
up. It was painfully slow, though, I only had a 68030 50Mhz accelerator
board in the Amiga, really need a 040 minimum to have a useable emulation.
Considering that there was never a 68K Mac that used the 060 chip, if one
were to, in 1995, say, get an Amiga 4000 with a 060 upgrade and install
ShapeShifter (and figure out how to get it working!) one would have had
the fastest "Mac" around! I'm sure I've read somewhere that there were
plenty of high-end power-users, graphics and video professionals, that did
exactly this!

>
> Yeah that was a very cool design - probably the most attractive after
> the rev a and b bondi blue models (which I later bought - a rev b model
> - second hand, a few years after buying my rev c lime one brand new).
>
> If I had the money and was willing to risk it on another elderly Mac
> likely to fail, I'd go for the last and most powerful G3 Mac able to run
> MacOS 8.6 that was ever released - the blue and white G3 tower. With an
> upgrade G3 card, max RAM, 128MB+ video card, and a fast HD with high
> cache, it would be one sweet classic gaming machine.
>
> But nowadays I just don't trust computer hardware to last. With
> increasing complexity, far greater heat, and lower build quality, I've
> seen desktop computers of all brands become disposable devices. That
> combined with my increasing need to live on a budget, is why - despite
> preferring the 'feel' and experience of old hardware - I'd rather go
> with software emulation. That way with backup and increasing computing
> power I need never lose any of my old computing and console setups, nor
> the ability to run them. Even if I have to eventually emulate the system
> an old emulator ran on, however recursive that gets.

A while ago I emulated Windows XP on my MacBook Pro, and then emulated an
Amiga within that, using WinUAE. It didn't work very well... the cursor
went berserk and I could never figure it out. If I had, I might have then
tried to emulate Mac OS within the emulated Amiga, within the emulated PC!
That would have been... interesting!

>
> However if I was rich I'd say the hell with the cost, and maintain:
>
> - a Mac SE/30 (favourite B&W compact Mac) with passthrough PDS external
> colour video to ethernet cards
>
> - a IIci (my all time favourite expandable classic Mac)
>
> - a Quadra 900 series for '040 power
>
> - a PowerBook 550c - top of the line '040 portable
>
> - a bondi blue rev b CRT iMac upgraded with a voodoo graphics card in
> that weird little side upgrade slot it had
>
> - and finally a blue and white G3 tower with all possible upgrades while
> still being able to run MAcOS 8.6
>
> A man can dream, right? :-)

We certainly can! I'm pretty satisfied with what I have at the moment.
When I had loads of Macs, none of them got used. Now I have just two main
machines set-up, they get used everyday. I'd like to add an SE/30 to my
desk, and maybe an iMac G4, one of the 20" screen versions. Good things
come to those who wait, I always keep one eye on the vintage computer
section on eBay for interesting items relatively locally. There's still
good deals to be had if you're prepared to drive a ways to collect
non-shipping auctions.

Here, have a look on the UK ebay for "Vintage apple computer collection",
starting bid £15,000. Now, If *I* were rich, that's what I'd be buying!
And a warehouse to keep it all in!

[Jamie Kahn Genet]

To New Zealand? :-) I've always envied the US secondhand market,
especially when it comes to old games and tech.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Jamie Kahn Genet <jam...@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

Me too. I had to quit browsing the US eBay, they're awash with vintage
hardware going for pennies but even to ship a small box of floppies costs
too much, anything heavier than that is prohibitive. Almost bought a NeXT
cube setup from America, was a good price but had to abandon due to
shipping being quoted at $350!

--
Stephen Thomas Cole - Sent from my iPhone so please forgive any spelling
mistakes or botched snipping.

[Howard S Shubs]

In article <1l22pko.1ael3e3kbb6mjN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,

Yikes, it might be cheaper for me to fly down and bring it with me.

[Jamie Kahn Genet]

Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:

> In article <1l22pko.1ael3e3kbb6mjN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz>,
> jam...@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>
> > Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a "beige" G3 upgraded to a G4 which could be available... I'd
> > > even send it with a 15" Sony monitor! woot.
> >
> > To New Zealand? :-) I've always envied the US secondhand market,
> > especially when it comes to old games and tech.
>
> Yikes, it might be cheaper for me to fly down and bring it with me.

Well I can put you up for the night if you do so - the least I can do
for such a favour!