iCloud encryption (Apple lied)

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Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 19, 2021, 2:20:46 AMSep 19
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Nobody lies like Apple lies...

The only iCloud data Apple can't routinely read are in the following areas:
Apple Card transactions
Home data
Health data
iCloud Keychain (saved accounts & passwords)
Maps Favorites, Collections, and search history
Memoji
Payment information
QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary
Safari History and iCloud Tabs
Screen Time
Siri information (although temps in Ireland were listening)
Wi-Fi passwords
W1 and H1 Bluetooth keys for AirPods and Beats Headphones

Most of these weren't stored encrypted until later versions of iOS.
For example, Maps and Safari data are only encrypted in iOS 13+.

Does anyone notice conspicuously missing from that E2EE list above of what
Apple doesn't have the key for, based on Apple's own documents, are:
iMessages (in your iCloud Backup)
iCloud Photo Library

The lack of security for iMessages is because the end-to-end encryption key
for your Messages data is actually stored in your iCloud Backup. Only if you
disable iCloud Backups is a new key automatically generated (which only then
would make Messages in the Cloud more secure, but only if you leave iCloud
Backups permanently off).

Your iCloud Backups and your iCloud Photo Library are merely 'encrypted at
rest' which means that although they are stored on Apple's servers in a
generic encrypted form, Apple has full and complete access to that generic
encryption key which they can use for any purpose they want to use it for.

Apple never tells the truth, except when forced to, in a court of law.
--
What's interesting is how Apple lied about having end to end encryption.

Alan Baker

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Sep 19, 2021, 1:20:47 PMSep 19
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On 2021-09-18 11:20 p.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Nobody lies like Apple lies...
>
> The only iCloud data Apple can't routinely read are in the following areas:
> Apple Card transactions
> Home data
> Health data
> iCloud Keychain (saved accounts & passwords)
> Maps Favorites, Collections, and search history
> Memoji
> Payment information
> QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary
> Safari History and iCloud Tabs
> Screen Time
> Siri information (although temps in Ireland were listening)
> Wi-Fi passwords
> W1 and H1 Bluetooth keys for AirPods and Beats Headphones

Your source for this claim?

>
> Most of these weren't stored encrypted until later versions of iOS.

Keychain passwords (including WiFi passwords) have always been encrypted.

So your source for THAT claim?

> For example, Maps and Safari data are only encrypted in iOS 13+.
>
> Does anyone notice conspicuously missing from that E2EE list above of what
> Apple doesn't have the key for, based on Apple's own documents, are:
> iMessages (in your iCloud Backup)
> iCloud Photo Library
>
> The lack of security for iMessages is because the end-to-end encryption key
> for your Messages data is actually stored in your iCloud Backup. Only if you
> disable iCloud Backups is a new key automatically generated (which only then
> would make Messages in the Cloud more secure, but only if you leave iCloud
> Backups permanently off).
>
> Your iCloud Backups and your iCloud Photo Library are merely 'encrypted at
> rest' which means that although they are stored on Apple's servers in a
> generic encrypted form, Apple has full and complete access to that generic
> encryption key which they can use for any purpose they want to use it for.
>
> Apple never tells the truth, except when forced to, in a court of law.
>

'iCloud secures your information by encrypting it when it's in transit,
storing it in iCloud in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for
authentication. For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end
encryption. This means that only you can access your information, and
only on devices where you’re signed into iCloud. No one else, not even
Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information.'

<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303>

'End-to-end encrypted data

End-to-end encryption provides the highest level of data security. Your
data is protected with a key derived from information unique to your
device, combined with your device passcode, which only you know. No one
else can access or read this data.

These features and their data are transmitted and stored in iCloud using
end-to-end encryption:

Apple Card transactions (requires iOS 12.4 or later)
Home data
Health data (requires iOS 12 or later)
iCloud Keychain (includes all of your saved accounts and passwords)
Maps Favorites, Collections and search history (requires iOS 13 or later)
Memoji (requires iOS 12.1 or later)
Payment information
QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary (requires iOS 11 or later)
Safari History and iCloud Tabs (requires iOS 13 or later)
Screen Time
Siri information
Wi-Fi passwords
W1 and H1 Bluetooth keys (requires iOS 13 or later)'

Lewis

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Sep 19, 2021, 6:03:53 PMSep 19
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In message <si7rhc$d4q$1...@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-09-18 11:20 p.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:

[idiotic troll bullshit]

> Your source for this claim?

Arlen has no sources for the shit she invents.

> 'iCloud secures your information by encrypting it when it's in transit,

Yep.

> storing it in iCloud in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for
> authentication. For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end
> encryption. This means that only you can access your information, and
> only on devices where you’re signed into iCloud. No one else, not even
> Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information.'

And the data that is Apple CAN decrypt they only do so for

1) Account recovery
2) a warrant

> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303>

--
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of 'true'.

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 19, 2021, 6:53:31 PMSep 19
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Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> asked
> And the data that is Apple CAN decrypt they only do so for
>
> 1) Account recovery
> 2) a warrant

It's telling Lewis is so childish he thinks calling someone a "girl" is an
insult (which, interestingly, is the way all apologists' are wired).

Nonetheless, what's rather telling is how fantastically _ignorant_ Lewis is.

*Apple can (& does) decrypt your data for _any_ purpose Apple deems worthy*.
Yup. Anything Apple wants.

Anything.

Even if Apple feels you're competing with them, they can (and do) decrypt
your private personal data if you're dumb enough to put it on their iCloud.

Check out the Apple iCloud privacy statement and report back what you find.
--
Nobody lies like Apple lies (Apple only tells the truth in court).

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:11:49 PMSep 19
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Regarding:
.../Nobody lies like Apple lies/... especially on encryption...

"Google offers full backup encryption that it can't access on its servers"
�<https://www.theverge.com/tech/2020/1/22/21076245/apple-icloud-backup-encryption-loophole-privacy-ads-fbi>

"'Apple has put some kind of handcuffs on in how they interact with your
data. It just turns out those handcuffs are made out of tissue paper.'"
<https://www.wired.com/story/apple-differential-privacy-shortcomings/>

For example... there's the infamous "iCloud loophole."

*The iCloud loophole is back in the news*
<https://www.theverge.com/tech/2020/1/22/21076245/apple-icloud-backup-encryption-loophole-privacy-ads-fbi>
"the awkward fact that Apple has access to that data in the first place
via the iCloud loophole."

*The iCloud loophole*
<https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/2/11144588/walt-mossberg-apple-vs-fbi-iphone-icloud-loophole>
"Apple retains the ability to decrypt most of what's in an iCloud backup.
And the company on occasion turns the contents of iCloud backups over"
to almost anyone who asks for it, the records show.

"The company's position is that it will provide whatever relevant
information it has to government agencies with proper, legal requests."

"What exactly is in an iCloud backup? In an interview with ABC News,
Apple CEO Tim Cook said 'you can think of it as making a picture of
almost everything on the phone − not everything, but almost everything.'"

"For instance, any iMessages and texts stored on the device are backed up
and can be decrypted."

See also:
*Why Apple's iCloud+ Provides a Future Unlocking for Authoritarian*
*Government Data Surveillance*
�<https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/opinions/apples-icloud-authoritarian/>

Jolly Roger

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Sep 19, 2021, 7:37:48 PMSep 19
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In particular, from Apple's Legal Process Guidelines:
<https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf>

"iCloud content may include email, stored photos, documents, contacts,
calendars, bookmarks, Safari Browsing History, Maps Search History,
Messages and iOS device backups. iOS device backups may include photos
and videos in the Camera Roll, device settings, app data, iMessage,
Business Chat, SMS, and MMS messages and voicemail. All iCloud content
data stored by Apple is encrypted at the location of the server. When
third-party vendors are used to store data, Apple never gives them the
encryption keys. Apple retains the encryption keys in its U.S. data
centers. iCloud content, as it exists in the customer’s account, may be
provided in response to a search warrant issued upon a showing of
probable cause, or customer consent."

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 21, 2021, 1:18:09 PMSep 21
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Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> In particular, from Apple's Legal Process Guidelines:
> <https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf>

The facts show _everything_ I said was completely correct.
In fact, the facts prove Apple doesn't give a shit about privacy.

It's shocking apologists aren't aware privacy is NOT a concern of Apple!
(Apple merely uses privacy as an advertising trick.)

*Whatever Apple Calls It, It's No Longer Secure Messaging*
<https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life>
"When that same server has a channel for revealing information
about the contents of a significant portion of messages,
that's not end-to-end encryption."
--
Apple belatedly brought up privacy because they had to defend themselves.

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 21, 2021, 1:24:58 PMSep 21
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Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> asked
> no sources for the shit she invents.

It's telling the apologists _only_ defense to facts is childishly calling
someone a "girl" (which just proves they all own a kindergarten mindset).

Meanwhile, the few _adults_ on this child-like Apple newsgroup always supply
the facts via well-researched cites which back up _every_ claim we make.

*Your iPhone's Data Isn't as Private as Apple makes you think it is*
<https://www.idropnews.com/news/your-iphone-data-isnt-as-private-as-you-think-it-is/165666/>

*How Can What Apple did Be Good for Privacy?*
<https://www.idropnews.com/news/it-turns-out-apple-wasnt-previously-scanning-icloud-photos-for-csam-only-icloud-mail/166129/>
--
Never forget Apple didn't consult even _one_ privacy expert!

JF Mezei

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Sep 21, 2021, 2:08:49 PMSep 21
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On 2021-09-19 13:20, Alan Baker wrote:

> 'iCloud secures your information by encrypting it when it's in transit,
> storing it in iCloud in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for
> authentication. For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end
> encryption. This means that only you can access your information, and
> only on devices where you’re signed into iCloud. No one else, not even
> Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information.'
>
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303>


Not debating your/Apple's claim. But in the San Bernadino Case, the
warrant did allow police access to the icloud data. It is the stuff on
the phone itself that they couldn't access.

Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
issued warrant).



Alan Baker

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Sep 21, 2021, 2:21:31 PMSep 21
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Why must you lie?

From the same source:

'Apple’s second main new feature is two kinds of notifications based on
scanning photos sent or received by iMessage. To implement these
notifications, Apple will be rolling out an on-device machine learning
classifier designed to detect “sexually explicit images.”

...

In these new processes, if an account held by a child under 13 wishes to
send an image that the on-device machine learning classifier determines
is a sexually explicit image, a notification will pop up, telling the
under-13 child that their parent will be notified of this content.'

I'm sorry, but a system that scans for something before a message is
sent or after it is received is still end-to-end encrypted.

The messaging is absolutely secure from being viewed by any third party
or even Apple itself...

...and this in no way constitutes a backdoor.

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 21, 2021, 2:44:40 PMSep 21
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JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> asked
> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
> issued warrant).

Worse, check out Apple's privacy statements for the iCloud.

Apple can (and does) decrypt your personal data for _any_ reason.

*Apple's iMessage Is Secure... Unless You Have iCloud Enabled*
<https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure...-unless-you-have-icloud-enabled/>
"there's a big privacy hole in iMessage, and it's named iCloud"
--
It's revealing Apple didn't ask even _one_ privacy organization for advice
on the two new back doors Apple hand planned to implement in iOS 15.

Alan Baker

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Sep 21, 2021, 2:52:57 PMSep 21
to
On 2021-09-21 11:44 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> asked
>> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
>> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
>> issued warrant).
>
> Worse, check out Apple's privacy statements for the iCloud.
>
> Apple can (and does) decrypt your personal data for _any_ reason.

This would be where you should have included the quote from "Apple's
privacy statements for the iCloud" that support your claim...

...along with a supporting link.

Alan Baker

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Sep 21, 2021, 8:51:21 PMSep 21
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On 2021-09-19 4:11 p.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Regarding:
> .../Nobody lies like Apple lies/... especially on encryption...
>
> "Google offers full backup encryption that it can't access on its servers"
> í° <https://www.theverge.com/tech/2020/1/22/21076245/apple-icloud-backup-encryption-loophole-privacy-ads-fbi>

'(If only it would offer a more secure default messaging experience!)'

Were all the rest of your quotes as carefully redacted?

:-)

Lewis

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Sep 21, 2021, 9:57:53 PMSep 21
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In message <Ocp2J.79251$z%4.2...@fx37.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-09-19 13:20, Alan Baker wrote:

>> 'iCloud secures your information by encrypting it when it's in transit,
>> storing it in iCloud in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for
>> authentication. For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end
>> encryption. This means that only you can access your information, and
>> only on devices where you’re signed into iCloud. No one else, not even
>> Apple, can access end-to-end encrypted information.'
>>
>> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303>


> Not debating your/Apple's claim. But in the San Bernadino Case, the
> warrant did allow police access to the icloud data.

There was no iCloud data to be had, because the fucking clueless
jackasses at the FBI fucked up.

> It is the stuff on the phone itself that they couldn't access.

And there was nothing on the phone to access anyway, as it turned out.

> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
> issued warrant).

Apple can decrypt the data in response to a lawful warrant. Apple
resists these as much as possible, and has gone to court to fight
warrants it thinks are unwarranted.

--
Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's law: Any technology distinguishable from
magic is insufficiently advanced.

Lewis

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Sep 21, 2021, 10:02:29 PMSep 21
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In message <sid9m6$5un$1...@dont-email.me> Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-09-21 11:44 a.m., Dipshit Arlen wrote:

>> Apple can (and does) decrypt your personal data for _any_ reason.

> This would be where you should have included the quote from "Apple's
> privacy statements for the iCloud" that support your claim...

That does not have anything to do with dipshits lie that Apple actually
decrypts user data "for any reason".

--
They say whisky'll kill you, but I don't think it will I'm ridin'
with you to the top of the hill

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 22, 2021, 2:19:49 AMSep 22
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Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> asked
> There was no iCloud data to be had, because the fucking clueless
> jackasses at the FBI fucked up.

Lewis is correct...
The FBI did fuck up; but the iPhone is so insecure they got the data anyway.

>> It is the stuff on the phone itself that they couldn't access.
>
> And there was nothing on the phone to access anyway, as it turned out.

Lewis is correct...
Comey knew emotion (mostly fear) drives people to divest their freedom.

>> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
>> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
>> issued warrant).
>
> Apple can decrypt the data in response to a lawful warrant.

Lewis is correct...
The iCloud is not end-to-end encrypted when Apple holds the keys.

> Apple resists these as much as possible, and has gone to court
> to fight warrants it thinks are unwarranted.

Lewis is only correct if we look only at Apple marketing schemes.
*Apple actually bends over backward in all the not-so-public cases.*

The only people who don't know that are the apologists, and that's because
these ignorant apologists believe _everything_ they've been told by Apple.

It's _why_ they own Apple products after all - they believe the bullshit.
--
As a result, the only place iPhones are secure are on an Apple web page.

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 22, 2021, 2:21:23 AMSep 22
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> asked
>>> Apple can (and does) decrypt your personal data for _any_ reason.
>
>> This would be where you should have included the quote from "Apple's
>> privacy statements for the iCloud" that support your claim...
>
> That does not have anything to do with dipshits lie that Apple actually
> decrypts user data "for any reason".

Tell us what does _Apple_ say are all the reasons it will decrypt your data,
Lewis.
--
Did you ever look?
(HINT: We covered this in gory detail - but you forgot apparently).

sms

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Sep 22, 2021, 10:29:04 PMSep 22
to
On 9/21/2021 11:08 AM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>

> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
> issued warrant).

That is correct. Look what happened in China:
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html>.

Of course you can encrypt your own data that you then upload to the
iCloud, but for data that is automatically backed up onto iCloud Apple
has the keys. The impetus behind the ill-fated CSAM plan was to run the
hash on the unencrypted phone data rather than having to decrypt the
photos on the server to run the hash.

Jolly Roger

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Sep 22, 2021, 10:39:11 PMSep 22
to
On 2021-09-21, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
> issued warrant).

Not the data that is end-to-end encrypted, which includes:

* Apple Card transactions (requires iOS 12.4 or later)
* Home data
* Health data (requires iOS 12 or later)
* iCloud Keychain (includes all of your saved accounts and passwords)
* Maps Favorites, Collections and search history (requires iOS 13 or later)
* Memoji (requires iOS 12.1 or later)
* Payment information
* QuickType Keyboard learned vocabulary (requires iOS 11 or later)
* Safari History and iCloud Tabs (requires iOS 13 or later)
* Screen Time
* Siri information
* Wi-Fi passwords
* W1 and H1 Bluetooth keys (requires iOS 13 or later)
* Messages in iCloud

nospam

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Sep 22, 2021, 10:42:42 PMSep 22
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In article <sigopd$dp7$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
> > Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
> > issued warrant).
>
> That is correct. Look what happened in China:

that's not what happened in china.

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 23, 2021, 4:42:38 AMSep 23
to
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked
>>> Isn't there an implication here that while the data may be encrypted,
>>> Apple has the means to decrypt it when it really wants to? (aka: court
>>> issued warrant).
>>
>> That is correct. Look what happened in China:
>
> that's not what happened in china.

What nospam is dancing around is exactly what Apple always lies about.

"If you look at the behavior of the Chinese government, you don't see
any resistance from Apple - no history of standing up for the principles
that Apple (merely) _claims_ to be so attached to."

*What changed was that the Chinese now have complete access to everything.*
"China is making Apple work for the Chinese government."

*Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China*
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html>
"Apple now answers to the Chinese government."
"China is making Apple work for the Chinese government."

"Apple has become a cog in the censorship machine that presents a
government-controlled version of the internet, said Nicholas Bequelin,
Asia director for Amnesty International"
--
Never forget nobody is better at clever lies than is Apple at lies
(and Apple paid over a billion dollars for their lies just last year!)

Robin Goodfellow

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Sep 23, 2021, 4:43:25 AMSep 23
to
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> Not the data that is end-to-end encrypted, which includes:
> * Messages in iCloud

*Nobody lies, like Apple lies.*

It's revealing how apologists _always_ fall for Apple's clever wording.
It doesn't matter to apologists what Apple _actually_ says or does.
It only matters to apologists what Apple _wanted_ you to interpret it as.

<https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure...-unless-you-have-icloud-enabled/>

*Your iCloud iMessage backups are _NOT_ end-to-end encrypted.*

With iCloud Backup enabled, your iCloud messages are encrypted,
then backed up to iCloud and stored on Apple's servers.

However, Apple receives a copy of the key that is used to encrypt
that backup.

In other words Apple and its employees can always access the contents
of your iMessage backups on Apple's servers any time they wish to.

For any reason they feel they have a need to access your data.

*Your iCloud iMessage backups are _NOT_ end-to-end encrypted.*

This also means that Apple could turn over the contents of your
iMessage history to anyone Apple wishes to give them to.

Jolly Roger

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Sep 23, 2021, 10:46:06 AMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23, Robin Goodfellow <Ancient...@Heaven.Net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
>>
>> Not the data that is end-to-end encrypted, which includes:
>>
>> * Messages in iCloud
>
> With iCloud Backup enabled, your iCloud messages are encrypted,
> then backed up to iCloud and stored on Apple's servers.
>
> However, Apple receives a copy of the key that is used to encrypt
> that backup.

Arlen (Robin) is butt hurt over his tiny Apple hate boner. : )

iCloud Backups are *optional* and *opt-in*, and when you *don't* backup
to iCloud, Messages in iCloud are encrypted with a key Apple
does *not* have.

Lewis

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Sep 23, 2021, 12:33:04 PMSep 23
to
sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually deficient,
it seems.


--
Love is strange and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the
smooth I suppose

nospam

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Sep 23, 2021, 12:59:20 PMSep 23
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In article <slrnskpb1u....@m1mini.local>, Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> > In article <sigopd$dp7$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> > <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> That is correct. Look what happened in China:
>
> > that's not what happened in china.
>
> sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually deficient,
> it seems.

he follows the trump playbook. repeat lies often enough and maybe
people will believe it.

Jolly Roger

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Sep 23, 2021, 1:31:08 PMSep 23
to
Arlen (under his slew of nyms), sms, JF Mezei, and horriblegolferdude
all follow that playbook like a religion.

nospam

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Sep 23, 2021, 1:37:33 PMSep 23
to
In article <ir3ruo...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >>> In article <sigopd$dp7$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> >>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>>> That is correct. Look what happened in China:
> >>
> >>> that's not what happened in china.
> >>
> >> sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually
> >> deficient, it seems.
> >
> > he follows the trump playbook. repeat lies often enough and maybe
> > people will believe it.
>
> Arlen (under his slew of nyms), sms,

yes

> JF Mezei, and horriblegolferdude

no.

Alan Baker

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Sep 23, 2021, 2:20:23 PMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23 1:43 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
>> Not the data that is end-to-end encrypted, which includes:
>> * Messages in iCloud
>
> *Nobody lies, like Apple lies.*

1. The comma is completely incorrect in that sentence.

2. You lie at least as well as Apple does.

>
> It's revealing how apologists _always_ fall for Apple's clever wording.
> It doesn't matter to apologists what Apple _actually_ says or does.
> It only matters to apologists what Apple _wanted_ you to interpret it as.
>
> <https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure...-unless-you-have-icloud-enabled/>
>
> *Your iCloud iMessage backups are _NOT_ end-to-end encrypted.*
>
> With iCloud Backup enabled, your iCloud messages are encrypted,
> then backed up to iCloud and stored on Apple's servers.
>
> However, Apple receives a copy of the key that is used to encrypt
> that backup.
>
> In other words Apple and its employees can always access the contents
> of your iMessage backups on Apple's servers any time they wish to.
>
> For any reason they feel they have a need to access your data.
>
> *Your iCloud iMessage backups are _NOT_ end-to-end encrypted.*
>
> This also means that Apple could turn over the contents of your
> iMessage history to anyone Apple wishes to give them to.

Only if you opt for iCloud backups...

>

Lewis

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 3:54:50 PMSep 23
to
Yes. He spent YEARS repeatedly lying about Apple Pay in Canada. Years
and Years.


--
Eliot: Jesus. Alice has gone full Harry Potter part seven/eight over there.
Margo: God, I hope we're winning.

nospam

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 4:07:11 PMSep 23
to
In article <slrnskpms8....@m1mini.local>, Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> >> >> sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually
> >> >> deficient, it seems.
> >> >
> >> > he follows the trump playbook. repeat lies often enough and maybe
> >> > people will believe it.
> >>
> >> Arlen (under his slew of nyms), sms,
>
> > yes
>
> >> JF Mezei, and horriblegolferdude
>
> > no.
>
> Yes. He spent YEARS repeatedly lying about Apple Pay in Canada. Years
> and Years.

jf isn't intentionally lying. he says what he does out of ignorance.

most of what sms says is intentional deception and outright lies, just
like trump, which he's been doing for *years* and in many different
newsgroups.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 5:08:39 PMSep 23
to
Lewis <g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> asked
> sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually deficient,
> it seems.

Aren't you apologists the ones who are denying the facts sms pointed to?
*Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China*
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html>

Despite Apple's many very public lies, the New York Times wasn't fooled.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 5:11:05 PMSep 23
to
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked
> he follows the trump playbook. repeat lies often enough and maybe
> people will believe it.

I've studied you dozen or so apologists closely for many years now...

What's interesting is you apologists always reveal how _you_ operate
when you have absolutely no adult defense to the facts being presented.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 5:12:35 PMSep 23
to
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> sms, JF Mezei, and horriblegolferdude
> all follow that playbook like a religion.

It's interesting that the _adults_ on the Apple newsgroup are whom these
child-like apologists hate.

Why?
I don't know why.

I suspect the apologists _hate_ they have no adult defense to facts.

*Censorship, Surveillance and Profits: A Hard Bargain for Apple in China*
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html>

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 5:14:34 PMSep 23
to
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked
> jf isn't intentionally lying. he says what he does out of ignorance.
>
> most of what sms says is intentional deception and outright lies, just
> like trump, which he's been doing for *years* and in many different
> newsgroups.

Name just a _single_ incorrect fact from me, nospam, in decades on this ng.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 5:19:20 PMSep 23
to
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> iCloud Backups are *optional* and *opt-in*, and when you *don't* backup
> to iCloud, Messages in iCloud are encrypted with a key Apple
> does *not* have.

I agree with Jolly Roger that iCloud backups are _optional_ for messages.

My point is to make it clear to users the instant you choose to back up your
messages, you lose the benefits of end to end encryption on iCloud backups.

I also agree with Jolly Roger that those who actively decide to voluntarily
opt out of the iCloud _do_ get end to end encryption of their messages.

I never said otherwise (as all intelligent people can handle these details).

Jolly Roger

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 6:34:55 PMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Oh yes. JF Mezei repeats lies about Apple *constantly*. And so does
terriblegolferdoofus. They repeat lies, over and over again. Stop
arguing for the sake of argument. It's silly and counterproductive.

Jolly Roger

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 6:37:44 PMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <slrnskpms8....@m1mini.local>, Lewis
><g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
>>>>>> sms is incapable of posting anything without being factually
>>>>>> deficient, it seems.
>>>>>
>>>>> he follows the trump playbook. repeat lies often enough and
>>>>> maybe people will believe it.
>>>>
>>>> Arlen (under his slew of nyms), sms,
>>
>>> yes
>>
>> >> JF Mezei, and horriblegolferdude
>>
>>> no.
>>
>> Yes. He spent YEARS repeatedly lying about Apple Pay in Canada. Years
>> and Years.
>
> jf isn't intentionally lying

That's bullshit, considering how many times he has been shown to be
wrong yet continues to tell the same lies.

And at a certain point, arguing about "intent" only serves to prolong
their disruption, which isn't helpful to the group.

> most of what sms says is intentional deception and outright lies

The same can be said of JF Mezei and lowscoregolferboy.

Jolly Roger

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 6:41:02 PMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23, Robin Goodfellow <Ancient...@Heaven.Net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
>>
>> iCloud Backups are *optional* and *opt-in*, and when you *don't* backup
>> to iCloud, Messages in iCloud are encrypted with a key Apple
>> does *not* have.
>
> the instant you choose to back up your messages, you lose the benefits
> of end to end encryption on iCloud backups.

Not if you back them up to a computer instead, which is easily done and
free of charge. Nobody forces you to backup to iCloud. iCloud backups
are completely *option* and *opt-in*. Meanwhile, Message in iCloud
remains end-to-end encrypted.

You are clueless as always, trollboi.

Alan Baker

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 10:15:21 PMSep 23
to
You called a notice that directed you to Apple's Privacy Policy...

...the Privacy Policy itself.

A thing cannot be the same as the thing to which it directs you.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 10:26:17 PMSep 23
to
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> Not if you back them up to a computer instead, which is easily done and
> free of charge. Nobody forces you to backup to iCloud. iCloud backups
> are completely *option* and *opt-in*. Meanwhile, Message in iCloud
> remains end-to-end encrypted.

Again, I concur with Jolly Roger that if you back up your messages to your
own computer (hopefully without the brain-dead iTunes bloatware), you won't
have to worry about Apple decrypting your messages for whatever reasons
Apple has when you, instead, choose to back your messages up to the iCloud.

I agree with anyone who says adult things that are sensible & factual.

Robin Goodfellow

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 10:37:51 PMSep 23
to
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
> repeatedly lying about everything Apple in order to
> cast them in as negative a light as possible.

I find it revealing Jolly Roger calls what amounts to well known facts about
Apple as "trying to cast Apple in as negative a light as possible".

Why is it that the mere facts themselves are what you _hate_ about Apple?

Apple paid over a billion dollars in criminal fines & legal settlements with
30 attorneys general just last year alone for Apple's many very public lies.

"Apple discovered that battery issues were leading to unexpected shutdowns
in iPhones. Rather than disclosing these issues or replacing batteries,
however, Apple concealed the issues from consumers.

Apple's concealment ultimately led to a software update in December 2016
that reduced iPhone performance... Apple's concealment of the battery
issues and decision to throttle the performance of consumers' iPhones
*led to Apple profiting from selling additional iPhones to consumers*
whose phone performance Apple had slowed.

Apple customers were left with only one option-the most expensive one.
https://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/news/2020/11/25/pr20-53.html

Alan Baker

unread,
Sep 23, 2021, 10:59:23 PMSep 23
to
On 2021-09-23 7:37 p.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> asked
>> repeatedly lying about everything Apple in order to
>> cast them in as negative a light as possible.
>
> I find it revealing Jolly Roger calls what amounts to well known facts about
> Apple as "trying to cast Apple in as negative a light as possible".
>
> Why is it that the mere facts themselves are what you _hate_ about Apple?
>
> Apple paid over a billion dollars in criminal fines & legal settlements with
> 30 attorneys general just last year alone for Apple's many very public lies.

Apple paid no money at all in criminal fines.

>
> "Apple discovered that battery issues were leading to unexpected shutdowns
> in iPhones. Rather than disclosing these issues or replacing batteries,
> however, Apple concealed the issues from consumers.
>
> Apple's concealment ultimately led to a software update in December 2016
> that reduced iPhone performance... Apple's concealment of the battery
> issues and decision to throttle the performance of consumers' iPhones
> *led to Apple profiting from selling additional iPhones to consumers*
> whose phone performance Apple had slowed.
>
> Apple customers were left with only one option-the most expensive one.
> https://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/news/2020/11/25/pr20-53.html

Those are allegations... ...not agreed upon facts:

"Based on the multistate investigation, the attorneys general allege..."


And, "announced a $113 million settlement"...

...is not nearly "a billion dollars".

Just factual things you got wrong...

...as usual.
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