Is a new Mac Mini supposed supposed to come with a Mac OS X disc/USB drive?

[Ant]

Hello.


I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
etc.? I only got these items:

1. Mac Mini
2. DVI to HDMI adapter
3. Power adapter
4. White Apple stickers
5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)

If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already
set it up, installed a bunch of software, copy my data, etc.

Thank you in advance. :)
--
"Cheerios: Hula-hoops for ants." --unknown
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

[nospam]

In article <Y6OdnZl1D-1blUHS...@earthlink.com>, Ant

<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> Hello.
>
>
> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
> etc.? I only got these items:

nope. there's a recovery partition on the hard drive and it can
reinstall lion over the net from apple's servers if necessary.

[Ant]

On 6/15/2012 9:32 PM PT, nospam typed:

>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
>> etc.? I only got these items:
>
> nope. there's a recovery partition on the hard drive and it can
> reinstall lion over the net from apple's servers if necessary.

Oh! So how does one get to those? Is this happening on all new Apple
computers or just Mac Minis? Is there way to make a installer disc/USB
flash media like with IBM PCs? Physical medias would be faster than
downloading especially for those with crappy Internet connections and/or
with caps. :(
--
"I got worms! That's what we're going to call it. We're going to
specialize in selling worm farms. You know like ant farms. What's the
matter, a little tense about the flight?" --Lloyd Christmas (Dumb and
Dumber movie)

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-15 10:17 PM Ant wrote:
> Hello.
>
>
> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its small box. Is it
> supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install disc/USB flash drive or something in case I
> ever need to reinstall, fix, etc.? I only got these items:
>
> 1. Mac Mini
> 2. DVI to HDMI adapter
> 3. Power adapter
> 4. White Apple stickers
> 5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)
>
> If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already set it up, installed a
> bunch of software, copy my data, etc.
>
> Thank you in advance. :)

From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
Lion Recovery
OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the Recovery HD, a new
feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a physical disc. Learn more
about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

--
_________________________________

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese

[nospam]

In article <qeednaqApeIzkEHS...@earthlink.com>, Ant

<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> >> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
> >> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
> >> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
> >> etc.? I only got these items:
> >
> > nope. there's a recovery partition on the hard drive and it can
> > reinstall lion over the net from apple's servers if necessary.
>
> Oh! So how does one get to those?

cmd-r

> Is this happening on all new Apple
> computers or just Mac Minis?

all new macs

> Is there way to make a installer disc/USB
> flash media like with IBM PCs? Physical medias would be faster than
> downloading especially for those with crappy Internet connections and/or
> with caps. :(

how often do you expect to be installing lion?

anyway, the really cool thing is you can network boot the mini with a
totally blank hard drive from apple.com and install lion. just be sure
you have a fast connection.

[Ant]

On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:

>
> From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> Lion Recovery
> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
> Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
> Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
> http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(
--
"We ants are runnin' the show! We're the lords of the earth!" --ANTZ

[Ant]

On 6/15/2012 9:45 PM PT, nospam typed:

> In article<qeednaqApeIzkEHS...@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>
>>>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>>>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>>>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
>>>> etc.? I only got these items:
>>>
>>> nope. there's a recovery partition on the hard drive and it can
>>> reinstall lion over the net from apple's servers if necessary.
>>
>> Oh! So how does one get to those?
>
> cmd-r

Thanks! :)

>> Is this happening on all new Apple
>> computers or just Mac Minis?
>
> all new macs

Dang.

>> Is there way to make a installer disc/USB
>> flash media like with IBM PCs? Physical medias would be faster than
>> downloading especially for those with crappy Internet connections and/or
>> with caps. :(
>
> how often do you expect to be installing lion?

You never know! What happen if the HDD goes bad?

> anyway, the really cool thing is you can network boot the mini with a
> totally blank hard drive from apple.com and install lion. just be sure
> you have a fast connection.

Yeah and no caps! That's not always the case. Hence, I still prefer the
physical media. :( BTW, how big is Lion download and need for HDD space?
--
"What reason, like the careful ant, draws laboriously together, the wind
of accident sometimes collects in a moment." --Friedrich von Schiller

[nospam]

In article <C5-dnZDUvrEViUHS...@earthlink.com>, Ant

<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> >> Is there way to make a installer disc/USB
> >> flash media like with IBM PCs? Physical medias would be faster than
> >> downloading especially for those with crappy Internet connections and/or
> >> with caps. :(
> >
> > how often do you expect to be installing lion?
>
> You never know! What happen if the HDD goes bad?

restore from a backup.

> > anyway, the really cool thing is you can network boot the mini with a
> > totally blank hard drive from apple.com and install lion. just be sure
> > you have a fast connection.
>
> Yeah and no caps! That's not always the case. Hence, I still prefer the
> physical media. :( BTW, how big is Lion download and need for HDD space?

the installer is about 4 gig.

[JF Mezei]

Larry Gusaas wrote:

> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the Recovery HD, a new
> feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a physical disc. Learn more
> about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

You still need to copy that partition to another physical media. If your
hard disk dies (hardware failure), then you lose that recovery partition
as well as your real partition.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-15 11:20 PM Michael Vilain wrote:
> In article <KN6dnXoIMKFXj0HS...@earthlink.com>,

> Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
>>> From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
>>> Lion Recovery
>>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
>>> Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
>>> Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
>>> http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
>> Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(

> that's why you have it on AppleCare, so you can take it into the
> AppleStore to get it's disk replaced.
>
> I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to
> add a recovery partition. How does one 'recover' from _that_ situation?

If you had followed the second link in my previous post you would have seen:

Internet Recovery.
Help is everywhere.

If your Mac problem is a little less common — your hard drive has failed or you’ve
installed a hard drive without OS X, for example — Internet Recovery takes over
automatically. It downloads and starts OS X Recovery directly from Apple servers over a
broadband Internet connection. And your Mac has access to the same OS X Recovery features
online. Internet Recovery is built into every newly-released Mac starting with the Mac mini
and MacBook Air.

[Larry Gusaas]

Obviously you did not read the link I gave above. If you had you would have seen this:

If your Mac problem is a little less common — your hard drive has failed or you’ve
installed a hard drive without OS X, for example — Internet Recovery takes over
automatically. It downloads and starts OS X Recovery directly from Apple servers over a
broadband Internet connection. And your Mac has access to the same OS X Recovery features
online. Internet Recovery is built into every newly-released Mac starting with the Mac mini
and MacBook Air.

[nospam]

In article <vilain-3F5EC7....@news.individual.net>, Michael

Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to
> add a recovery partition. How does one 'recover' from _that_ situation?

nonsense. any drive can be formatted with a recovery partition. i have
lion on two external drives and both have recovery partitions.

[nospam]

In article <michelle-985A47...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> You can buy a Lion installer USB Flash drive from Apple for $69.

you can, but macs that are introduced after next month won't be able to
boot lion anymore (unless the changes are very minor which is not
likely). mountain lion will not be available on a flash stick because
demand for the lion stick was very low.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 12:02 AM no spam wrote:
> mountain lion will not be available on a flash stick because
> demand for the lion stick was very low.

And how do you know that? Did Steve tell you?

[nospam]

In article <jrh7lr$5ab$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> > mountain lion will not be available on a flash stick because
> > demand for the lion stick was very low.
>
> And how do you know that? Did Steve tell you?

yes he did, in a seance.

and for those who don't believe in seances,
<http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/44422/mountain-lion-mac-app-store-only>

Apple has confirmed to Pocket-lint though that its concerns weren't
justified with customers not remotely interested in the USB drive
offering:

"It was an interesting test, but it turns out the App Store was just
fine for getting the new OS."

[Larry Gusaas]

And where is the actual statement from Apple?

[David Empson]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <vilain-3F5EC7....@news.individual.net>

> Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> > In article <KN6dnXoIMKFXj0HS...@earthlink.com>,
> > Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>

> >> On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
> >> >
> >> > From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> >> > Lion Recovery
> >> > OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
> >> > Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
> >> > Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
> >> > http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> >>
> >> Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(
>

> > that's why you have it on AppleCare, so you can take it into the
> > AppleStore to get it's disk replaced.
>

> > I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> > 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to
> > add a recovery partition.
>

> Why not?

Indeed.

Lion Recovery Disk Assistant will copy the recovery partition to an
external disk. It will definitely work if the external disk is
partitioned using GUID Partition Table, not sure if it works for Apple
Partition Map drives.

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1433

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[David Empson]

Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> In article <slrnjtof93....@krismbp.local>,

> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
> > In message <vilain-3F5EC7....@news.individual.net>
> > Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> > > In article <KN6dnXoIMKFXj0HS...@earthlink.com>,
> > > Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> >

> > >> On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
> > >> >
> > >> > From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> > >> > Lion Recovery
> > >> > OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac
> > >> > in the Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or
> > >> > reinstall OS X Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion
> > >> > Recovery
> > >> > http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> > >>
> > >> Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(
> >

> > > that's why you have it on AppleCare, so you can take it into the
> > > AppleStore to get it's disk replaced.
> >
> > > I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> > > 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to
> > > add a recovery partition.
> >
> > Why not?
>

> Because doing so would destroy the data on them.

Are you not aware that Disk Utility on Mac OS X has had the ability to
do a non-destructive repartition since Leopard?

The only requirements are that the drive is partitioned using Apple
Partition Map or GUID Partition Table (not the Windows-compatible Master
Boot Record), that it has enough free space, and that there are no open
files located in the region near the end of the drive which you want to
use for the new partition.

The last point is generally only an issue for your startup drive, and
the usual way around it is to boot from a different drive in order to do
the repartition. For example, boot from the Lion recovery partition or
your OS install DVD, and use Disk Utility there.

The installation process of Snow Leopard and Lion even makes use of this
mechanism to create a temporary partition while installing the OS. If
you have installed Snow Leopard directly to an external drive, it has
undergone a non-destructive repartition.

> I could buy another 1TB drive to back the existing ones, one at a time.
> But suppose for arguments sake that this isn't possible. How do you
> recover from Lion installed in this environment?

Setting aside the option of buying Lion on a USB thumb drive (which is
expensive, and is rumoured to be going away as an option for Mountain
Lion)...

And setting aside the option of creating a Lion install DVD or USB flash
drive yourself from the Lion installer (not documented by Apple but the
details are out there for anyone who cares to look)...

If the only recovery partition was on your main hard drive and the drive
died or the recovery partition got wiped somehow, then you would
typically use Internet Recovery, which is built into the firmware of
every Mac introduced since mid 2011 (when Lion was released) and Apple
added via a firmware update to many older models:

iMac (Mid 2010, Early 2011)
MacBook Pro (Early 2010, 13" Mid 2010, Early 2011)
MacBook (Mid 2010)
MacBook Air (Late 2010)
Mac Mini (Mid 2010)

If your model doesn't have Internet Recovery support in firmware and was
upgraded to Lion, then it must have had Snow Leopard in order to install
Lion. In this case, reinstalling Lion from scratch involves first
reinstalling Snow Leopard from your DVD, updating to 10.6.8 and then
redownloading the Lion installer from the App Store.

The only case I can see where there might be a problem is a Mac Pro
bought after Lion was introduced, which came with Lion preinstalled.
Unless the Mac Pro has had a firmware update which Apple didn't push out
to Mid 2010 models sold prior to Lion being preinstalled, a Mac Pro
which came with Lion preinsatlled might have no way to recover if the
hard drive died.

Anyone here bought a Mac Pro which came with Lion preinstalled? Did it
include a Snow Leopard DVD? What Boot ROM Version is reported by System
Profiler/Information?

The last EFI update Apple published for the mid 2010 Mac Pro is EFI
Firmware Update 1.5. The firmware it installs should be shown as version
"MP51.007F.B03". Can someone with this Mac Pro model who installed this
update confirm this detail?

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Ant]

On 6/15/2012 10:36 PM PT, Michelle Steiner typed:

> In article<C5-dnZDUvrEViUHS...@earthlink.com>,
> Ant<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>

>>> anyway, the really cool thing is you can network boot the mini with a
>>> totally blank hard drive from apple.com and install lion. just be sure
>>> you have a fast connection.
>>
>> Yeah and no caps! That's not always the case. Hence, I still prefer the
>> physical media.
>

> You can buy a Lion installer USB Flash drive from Apple for $69.

69 bucks? Ick. I'd rather make my own from the HDD it comes with.
--
"Don't step on ants... they're people too." --a quote from ANTZ movie.

[Ant]

On 6/16/2012 12:04 AM PT, Michelle Steiner typed:

> In article<160620120202316551%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

> nospam<nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> You can buy a Lion installer USB Flash drive from Apple for $69.
>>
>> you can, but macs that are introduced after next month won't be able to
>> boot lion anymore (unless the changes are very minor which is not
>> likely). mountain lion will not be available on a flash stick because
>> demand for the lion stick was very low.
>

> True, but he was asking specifically about Lion.

Well, future versions would be interesting too.
--
"You feel the faint grit of ants beneath your shoes, but keep on walking
because in this world you have to decide what you're willing to kill."
--Tony Hoagland from "Candlelight"

[Ant]

On 6/15/2012 10:44 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:

>>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in
>>> the Recovery HD, a new
>>> feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a
>>> physical disc. Learn more
>>> about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
>> You still need to copy that partition to another physical media. If your
>> hard disk dies (hardware failure), then you lose that recovery partition
>> as well as your real partition.
>
> Obviously you did not read the link I gave above. If you had you would
> have seen this:
>
> If your Mac problem is a little less common — your hard drive has failed
> or you’ve
> installed a hard drive without OS X, for example — Internet Recovery
> takes over
> automatically. It downloads and starts OS X Recovery directly from Apple
> servers over a
> broadband Internet connection. And your Mac has access to the same OS X
> Recovery features
> online. Internet Recovery is built into every newly-released Mac
> starting with the Mac mini
> and MacBook Air.

What happens to those with crappy Internet connections or capped? I
assume one has to buy it? I assume there is a feature to make your own
discs/USB drive on a working Mac in advance like on those OEM IBM PCs?
--
"To the gods I am an ant, but to the ants, I am a god." --unknown

[Ant]

On 6/16/2012 12:57 AM PT, Lewis typed:

>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
>> etc.?
>

> No.

Thanks. :)
--
"It doesn't matter what your D&D manual says, you did not get 5
experience points for killing the giant ant in your kitchen." --BBspot's
Geek Horoscopes (7/30/2004)

[nospam]

In article <jrharg$iog$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> mountain lion will not be available on a flash stick because
> >>> demand for the lion stick was very low.
> >> And how do you know that? Did Steve tell you?
> >>
> > yes he did, in a seance.
> >
> > and for those who don't believe in seances,
> > <http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/44422/mountain-lion-mac-app-store-only>
> >
> > Apple has confirmed to Pocket-lint though that its concerns weren't
> > justified with customers not remotely interested in the USB drive
> > offering:
> >
> > "It was an interesting test, but it turns out the App Store was just
> > fine for getting the new OS."
>
> And where is the actual statement from Apple?

read it again.

or just keep believing apple will release mountain lion on usb sticks.

[nospam]

In article <vilain-EEC77E....@news.individual.net>, Michael

> Yes, the _can_ (as in are able to be) but they may not be able to be
> restored (as in If you do you destroy my data by repartitioning the
> disk).

have you even tried? the lion installer will create a recovery
partition without destroying anything.

if for some reason it can't do a live partition, it won't even try.
boot camp has been doing live partitions for several years and i don't
see anyone complaining about data loss.

> If I can or won't by another 1TB disk to backup my others, so I
> can reformat a disk to install a recovery partition on it, how can I
> recover if there's no boot DVD or internet (yes, classified environment,
> no internet, Tempest cleared vault--just go with it).

there will be a recovery partition on it, unless you clone it and don't
clone that partition.

[nospam]

In article <vilain-E90774....@news.individual.net>, Michael

Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> > > I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> > > 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to
> > > add a recovery partition.
> >

> > Why not?
>
> Because doing so would destroy the data on them. I could buy another

> 1TB drive to back the existing ones, one at a time. But suppose for
> arguments sake that this isn't possible. How do you recover from Lion
> installed in this environment?

what are you talking about? installing lion on an external drive works
fine and a recovery partition is created without any problems and no
data is lost. it doesn't matter if it's internal or external.

[Lloyd]

In article <vilain-3F5EC7....@news.individual.net>,

Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> In article <KN6dnXoIMKFXj0HS...@earthlink.com>,
> Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>
> > On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
> > >
> > > From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> > > Lion Recovery

> > > OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
> > > Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
> > > Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
> > > http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> >

> > Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(
>
> that's why you have it on AppleCare, so you can take it into the
> AppleStore to get it's disk replaced.
>

> I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives. I have
> 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be reformatted to

> add a recovery partition. How does one 'recover' from _that_ situation?

Much easier than you might imagine. Here's how I did it when I had a
new drive put into my iMac recently.

1. booted off my Lion clone disk (made with SuperDuper!)
2. Ran SuperDuper! to restore that to the internal drive.
3. Then went to the App Store and downloaded the latest Lion and
installed it Lion over Lion. During that the recovery partition was
created with no problems and no reformatting.

[PhillipJones]

Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
> On 2012-06-15 10:17 PM Ant wrote:
>> Hello.

>>
>>
>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall,

>> fix, etc.? I only got these items:
>>
>> 1. Mac Mini
>> 2. DVI to HDMI adapter
>> 3. Power adapter
>> 4. White Apple stickers
>> 5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)
>>
>> If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already
>> set it up, installed a bunch of software, copy my data, etc.
>>
>> Thank you in advance. :)

>
> From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> Lion Recovery
> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
> Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
> Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
> http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
>

Good thing its at your work. Requires a Cable connecton 15 MB or more to
work decent.
But if your on 3MB DSL which is typical Then it may take you 36 hr with
un-interrupted Connection to re-download

[PhillipJones]

nospam wrote:
> In article<qeednaqApeIzkEHS...@earthlink.com>, Ant

> <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>
>>>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>>>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>>>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
>>>> etc.? I only got these items:
>>>

>>> nope. there's a recovery partition on the hard drive and it can
>>> reinstall lion over the net from apple's servers if necessary.
>>
>> Oh! So how does one get to those?
>
> cmd-r
>
>> Is this happening on all new Apple
>> computers or just Mac Minis?
>
> all new macs
>
>> Is there way to make a installer disc/USB
>> flash media like with IBM PCs? Physical medias would be faster than
>> downloading especially for those with crappy Internet connections and/or
>> with caps. :(
>
> how often do you expect to be installing lion?

>
> anyway, the really cool thing is you can network boot the mini with a
> totally blank hard drive from apple.com and install lion. just be sure
> you have a fast connection.

On 3Mb DSL which is average about 36 hours non breaking non stop.

[PhillipJones]

Ant wrote:
> On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
>>

>> From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
>> Lion Recovery
>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
>> Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
>> Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
>> http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
>

> Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(

I would download The Install Application and burn to a DVD
Dumb Companies don't take into account such contingencies They think
Parts never fail.

For me to upgrade mean I go to drive 60 miles to nearest apple store
just to borrow their fios Connect just to do so.

[Lloyd]

In article <jri29e$97c$1...@news.albasani.net>,

I believe you are blowing a bit of smoke. Took me 45 minutes with a
12Mbit Cable modem, if DSL is at 3Mbit, then it would take about 4 times
longer, say 4 hours.

[David Empson]

Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:

> On 6/15/2012 10:44 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
>
> >>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in
> >>> the Recovery HD, a new
> >>> feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a
> >>> physical disc. Learn more
> >>> about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> >> You still need to copy that partition to another physical media. If your
> >> hard disk dies (hardware failure), then you lose that recovery partition
> >> as well as your real partition.
> >
> > Obviously you did not read the link I gave above. If you had you would
> > have seen this:
> >
> > If your Mac problem is a little less common — your hard drive has failed
> > or you've installed a hard drive without OS X, for example — Internet
> > Recovery takes over automatically. It downloads and starts OS X Recovery
> > directly from Apple servers over a broadband Internet connection. And
> > your Mac has access to the same OS X Recovery features online. Internet
> > Recovery is built into every newly-released Mac starting with the Mac
> > mini and MacBook Air.
>
> What happens to those with crappy Internet connections or capped?

Assuming you are talking about how to restore Lion on a computer which
came with it preinstalled (and no install media):

(a) Restore from the backup you should have anyway.

(b) Take the computer to somewhere with a better Internet connection.

(c) Buy a Lion installer on a thumb drive from Apple (US$65).

(d) There are also options around buying a copy of Lion from the App
Store on a Mac which has a better Internet connection (US$29.99), but in
the case where your hard drive is hosed and you have no other installed
bootable Lion systems, it would need another Mac to assist with the
reinstall, since you need to run the Lion installer application from a
Snow Leopard or Lion system.

If you already bought a copy of Lion to upgrade another computer, you
don't need to buy it again but you will need a copy of the installer
application so might need to download it again if you didn't keep one.

There are also complexities with version compatibiity for options (c)
and (d), if your computer came with Lion preinstalled you need a version
of the Lion installer which is new enough for that model. This may
require re-downloading Lion from the App Store if your existing copy of
the installer is too old.

For example, the mid 2011 MacBook Air and Mac Mini were the first models
with Lion preinstalled, and they originally came with a special build of
10.7.0. You need the full installer for 10.7.1 or later to install on
those models.

The mid 2012 MacBook Air and MacBook Pro which were just released will
have come with a special build of either 10.7.3 or 10.7.4. They will
need a full installer for 10.7.5 or later, which isn't available yet, so
the only way to restore those models at present is methods (a) or (b).

> I assume one has to buy it?

If you have no backups and have no access to a reasonable broadband
connection (or can't move your computer for some reason) then yes.

> I assume there is a feature to make your own discs/USB drive on a working
> Mac in advance like on those OEM IBM PCs?

No. Apple's official method of reinstalling Lion is to download it. They
don't provide any way to create a bootable installer in the manner of
the DVD that came with pre-Lion Macs.

You can of course make a backup of the computer using a variety of
tools, but that won't be an installer, just an image which can be used
to restore the system.

Note that if you use Time Machine to back up your system, a Time Machine
backup is not bootable. Restoring it requires booting from another drive
which has an installed copy of Lion, or from the Lion Recovery
partition.

If you don't have either of these, you can use Internet Recovery to
re-download the Lion Recovery partition (about 1 GB), then boot from
that and use it to restore the Time Machine backup.

It would be prudent to make sure you have a bootable Lion system on
another drive, e.g. a clone backup.

It is worth noting that Apple has a "Lion Recovery Disk Assistant" tool
to copy the Lion Recovery partition. You could put it on a USB flash
drive or SD card (I think 1 GB would be big enough but haven't tried it
myself yet), or even copy it to your Time Machine backup drive (assuming
that drive is directly connected to the computer via USB, Firewire or
Thunderbolt - you couldn't boot from a Time Capsule, for example).

[Ant]

On 6/16/2012 6:40 AM PT, PhillipJones typed:

> On 3Mb DSL which is average about 36 hours non breaking non stop.

Also, some people can't get fast speeds and still use dial-ups. Or
capped and slow like satellite Internet services. :(
--
"Be thine enemy an ant, see in him an elephant." --Turkish Proverb

[Paul Sture]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 05:22:02 -0700, Ant wrote:

> On 6/15/2012 10:36 PM PT, Michelle Steiner typed:
>

>> You can buy a Lion installer USB Flash drive from Apple for $69.
>
> 69 bucks? Ick. I'd rather make my own from the HDD it comes with.

I can get rather a lot of USB sticks for 69 bucks :-)

[Paul Sture]

I believe he's either blowing smoke or getting his megabits and megabytes
mixed up.

How big is the download? I have a 3000 Kbit cable service and given a
non-busy server at the other end I regularly get 3.1 Megabytes/sec
download speeds (according to Firefox - not sure how accurate that is).

[Barry Margolin]

In article <5qiua9-...@mint-hp.chingola.ch>,

That doesn't seem right. 3 Megabytes is 24 Megabits. Even with
technologies like PowerBoost, I wouldn't expect to be able to squeeze 24
Mbps through a 3 Mbps connection. So either FF's throughput report is
wrong, you're wrong about the connection speed, or you're also getting
bits and bytes mixed up.

Actually, another possibility is that compression is taking place during
the transfer, but FF is reporting the througput in terms of the
decompressed data. What do you see in Activity Monitor's network
statistics when you're doing one of these transfers?

--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

[PhillipJones]

I said you need at least a Cable connection or FOIS Connection.

It took me 12 hr to download Office2011 when it first come out.

I tried to download LibreOffice update yesterday said it would take 15
hrs to download.
I have a 3MB DSL Connection.

Unless you have Cable/FOIS forget it.

You have a Cable Connection. I'm sure you were able to download in 45
minutes. Not Blowing Smoke.

[PhillipJones]

There is a way to create a bootable DVD install disk. Describe either on
MacWorld or MacLife.
1. You use download the installer
2. Then immediately move it out of Applications.
3. Next you Hold control key down and click on the application
4. Choose Show Package contents.
5. Look for an Installer .dmg File
6. Move a Copy of this to desktop.
7. Open Disk Utility and locate the installer dmg
8. choose to create DVD from the dmg file.

you can also use the same to install on a USB stick. as well . The USB
stick or jump drive has to be double the size of the contents of the dmg
so there will be enough working space for the installer to work. If
There is not enough room your newly created installer will corrupt the
USB stick immediately.

[Alan Browne]

On 2012-06-16 00:17 , Ant wrote:
> Hello.
>
>
> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall, fix,
> etc.? I only got these items:
>
> 1. Mac Mini
> 2. DVI to HDMI adapter
> 3. Power adapter
> 4. White Apple stickers
> 5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)
>
> If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already
> set it up, installed a bunch of software, copy my data, etc.

Apple are in Phase 2 of eliminating physical media. No more distributed
disks or flash drives. I'd bet the "next" Mini's will not have CD/DVD
drives.

But you can also, when the next major update rolls around, make your own
bootable install disk at that revision. Don't let App store complete
the install. Then make an ISO of the install (ESD) file:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-20080989-263/how-to-create-an-os-x-lion-installation-disc/

You'd have to pay $29 for that now - so just wait until (if) you update
to Mountain Lion.
--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.

[PhillipJones]

You don't get it: X.7 (Lion only comes as a download from the Internet.
or on USB Stick.)
Mountain Lion will be download only you'll be SOL unless you have a very
high speed connection. Mountain Lion X.8 will be download only no
provision for people with slow Internet will be made.

They taken the attitude if you don't have high sped GO F yourself.

[PhillipJones]

No the listed speed for the connection is 3MB is what the phone describes.
I have used a couple of Speed test sites. and it has been as low as
850KB and been as high as 4.1 MB Averages about 1.5-2 MB.

[PhillipJones]

Never used activity Monitor for that purpose. I'm using the terms my
ISP and and The Phone company quote. And the actual time shown by FF
or SeaMonkey quotes as time it takes to download.

The one time I downloaded Office2011 FF said it would take 12Hr. I
started at 8:AM and actually finished up at 9:30 PM

[JF Mezei]

Note that earlier Macs stull have the ability to boot from network, via
TFTP (netbook is how Apple calls it).

Not sure if you are required to have a server version to create the boot
environment that is fed to a boot client.

[Alan Browne]

On 2012-06-16 13:03 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <jrib8c$1hb$1...@news.albasani.net>,

> PhillipJones <pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:
>
>> They taken the attitude if you don't have high sped GO F yourself.
>

> If you live near an Apple Store, you can take the computer there and
> download using its internet connection. Sure, it's not as convenient as
> doing it at home, but it is possible.

Define "near".

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 7:01 AM nospam wrote:
> In article <jrharg$iog$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas
> <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And where is the actual statement from Apple?
> read it again.

There is not reference to an actual Apple statement, only the claim that "Apple confirmed".

> or just keep believing apple will release mountain lion on usb sticks.

I never said I believed that nor do I believe that. You should quit reading things into what
people write.

You have not provided an actual statement from Apple. Or Apple stating the reason for not
having USB sticks is because of low demand for them.

An article claiming that Apple confirmed something is not an Apple statement.

--
_________________________________

Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese

[Alan Browne]

On 2012-06-16 12:17 , Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <tsCdnSiKooMqMkHS...@giganews.com>,

> Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-06-16 00:17 , Ant wrote:
>> > Hello.
>> >
>> >
>> > I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
>> > small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
>> > disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall,
>> fix,
>> > etc.? I only got these items:
>> >
>> > 1. Mac Mini
>> > 2. DVI to HDMI adapter
>> > 3. Power adapter
>> > 4. White Apple stickers
>> > 5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)
>> >
>> > If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already
>> > set it up, installed a bunch of software, copy my data, etc.
>>
>> Apple are in Phase 2 of eliminating physical media. No more
>> distributed disks or flash drives. I'd bet the "next" Mini's will not
>> have CD/DVD drives.
>

> Wakey wakey: they already don't and haven't for a year. Mine (bought Jan
> 2012) doesn't.

So my bet was right. (I didn't realize they'd made the change already).
Sigh.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 6:28 AM Ant wrote:
> I assume there is a feature to make your own discs/USB drive on a working Mac in advance like
> on those OEM IBM PCs?

The link I gave you before has a section "The Do-It-Yourself Recovery Tool".

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 9:47 AM PhillipJones wrote:
> I tried to download LibreOffice update yesterday said it would take 15 hrs to download.
> I have a 3MB DSL Connection.

If it takes that long complain to your Internet Provider.
I have downloaded OpenOffice.org (LibreOffice is a fork) on a 1.5 Mbps connection and it took
about 18 minutes.

[Paul Sture]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:11:55 -0400, PhillipJones wrote:

> Paul Sture wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 05:22:02 -0700, Ant wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/15/2012 10:36 PM PT, Michelle Steiner typed:
>>>
>>>> You can buy a Lion installer USB Flash drive from Apple for $69.
>>>
>>> 69 bucks? Ick. I'd rather make my own from the HDD it comes with.
>>
>> I can get rather a lot of USB sticks for 69 bucks :-)
>
> You don't get it: X.7 (Lion only comes as a download from the Internet.
> or on USB Stick.)

No, what I am really saying is that at 69 bucks, folks will find other
ways to get hold of the installer. At 20 bucks or less I wouldn't
hesitate to buy one if needed; at 69 bucks I would look for a friend
who could create one for me (and I'd buy them drinks or lunch in return.
whatever).

> Mountain Lion will be download only you'll be SOL unless you have a very
> high speed connection. Mountain Lion X.8 will be download only no
> provision for people with slow Internet will be made.
>
> They taken the attitude if you don't have high sped GO F yourself.

They priced the USB option high enough to say "We don't really want to do
this". When I was on slow dial up we found local user groups, friends
and friendly dealers who would take the pain out of heavy downloads. I
am sure the same will happen again.

[Paul Sture]

Here's how to set up OS X Server for booting Linux clients over the
network.

<http://www.shawnhogan.com/2011/05/pxe-network-boot-linux-with-mac-os-x-
server.html>

I am sure I came across a method for setting up OS X non-server to do
this several months ago, but cannot find the link.

[nospam]

In article <jrig18$v76$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> And where is the actual statement from Apple?
> > read it again.
>
> There is not reference to an actual Apple statement, only the claim that
> "Apple confirmed".

what do you think confirmed means?

[Larry Gusaas]

I know what confirmed means. Unless there is a reference to an actual statement from Apple,
saying it is confirmed means diddly-squat.

[Paul Sture]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:22:21 -0400, Barry Margolin wrote:

> In article <5qiua9-...@mint-hp.chingola.ch>,
> Paul Sture <paul....@sture.ch> wrote:
>
>>
>> How big is the download? I have a 3000 Kbit cable service and given a
>> non-busy server at the other end I regularly get 3.1 Megabytes/sec
>> download speeds (according to Firefox - not sure how accurate that is).

I missed a zero out there and for a bonus got the number wrong too :-(

I've just looked at my latest bill and I am on what they now call "Fiber
Power Internet 25". It used to have "25000" in the name.

The web page describing it is here:

<http://www.upc-cablecom.ch/en/b2c/internet/fiberpower25.htm>

Hmm, I see that double the speed is just another 10 bucks a month...

> That doesn't seem right. 3 Megabytes is 24 Megabits. Even with
> technologies like PowerBoost, I wouldn't expect to be able to squeeze 24
> Mbps through a 3 Mbps connection. So either FF's throughput report is
> wrong, you're wrong about the connection speed, or you're also getting
> bits and bytes mixed up.

25 Megabits sounds right then. The 3.1 MB/s figure is not just what I
see regularly in Firefox but what command line SCP reports for downloads.

> Actually, another possibility is that compression is taking place during

> the transfer, but FF is reporting the throughput in terms of the

> decompressed data. What do you see in Activity Monitor's network
> statistics when you're doing one of these transfers?

So let's try that with a download of a tar.gz dump of my hosting ISP
account. Both my home ISP and my hosting ISP are within 50 kilometers of
each other, and I am within 30 kilometers of the home one, so network
latency shouldn't be too much of an issue.

With a 160 MB file scp reported 3.0 MB/s overall and Activity Monitor
reported peaks of 3.31 MB/s, sometimes dropping as low as 2.7 but for
most of the time at or above 3.0.

[nospam]

In article <michelle-E8954B...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> > > >> And where is the actual statement from Apple?
> > > >
> > > > read it again.
> > >
> > > There is not reference to an actual Apple statement, only the claim
> > > that "Apple confirmed".
> >
> > what do you think confirmed means?
>

> Problem is that *they said* that Apple confirmed it; that's second-hand
> information, or what is commonly known as hearsay. One would have to trust
> them in order to believe that Apple actually said it.

do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.

> Thus far, no one has shown a statement directly from Apple.

not everything requires a formal press release.

> Of course, this doesn't mean that Apple didn't say it, only that we haven't
> seen Apple's direct statement.

apple confirmed it. apparently that's not sufficient for some people,
but the reality is, mountain lion will *not* be available on a usb
stick.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <timstreater-E1E9...@news.individual.net>,
Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <192va9-...@mint-hp.chingola.ch>,

> Paul Sture <paul....@sture.ch> wrote:
>
> > So let's try that with a download of a tar.gz dump of my hosting ISP
> > account. Both my home ISP and my hosting ISP are within 50 kilometers of
> > each other, and I am within 30 kilometers of the home one, so network
> > latency shouldn't be too much of an issue.
>

> Mmm, you can't be sure of that. Depends where the two ISPs interconnect.
> You should do a traceroute to find that out.

Yeah, on the Internet it's not uncommon to take a trip around the corner
by way of the airport.

--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 2:49 PM nospam wrote:
> do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
> from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.

Do you have any evidence that Apple actually told them that. Good journalistic (and academic)
practice requires sources for statements like that otherwise they are nothing but hearsay.

[nospam]

In article <jrj2o5$gia$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> > do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
> > from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.
>
> Do you have any evidence that Apple actually told them that. Good
> journalistic (and academic)
> practice requires sources for statements like that otherwise they are nothing but hearsay.

they cited their source. what more do you want? a personal phone call
from tim cook?

feel free to contact them and ask them for proof. post any replies here.

not that it matters since your mind is made up and nothing is going to
convince you otherwise, no matter how convincing it may be. same for
the audiophile nonsense.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 5:00 PM nospam wrote:
> In article <jrj2o5$gia$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas
> <larry....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
>>> from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.
>> Do you have any evidence that Apple actually told them that. Good
>> journalistic (and academic)
>> practice requires sources for statements like that otherwise they are nothing but hearsay.
> they cited their source. what more do you want? a personal phone call
> from tim cook?

There is no citation or link to anything from Apple. Saying "Apple has confirmed" isn't a
citation. There needs to be an actual link to an Apple statement for it to be a citation. That
is what good journalists provide. Otherwise it is hear-say.

> feel free to contact them and ask them for proof. post any replies here.

It the the writer of the article (and yours since you are defending it) to provide verifiable
citations for the supposed statement from Apple

> not that it matters since your mind is made up and nothing is going to
> convince you otherwise, no matter how convincing it may be.

And I am only asking for a verifiable citation. Why don't you try publishing an academic
paper, or even a paper for an university class without proper citations?

> same for the audiophile nonsense.

Hey! I am not an audiophile. You should quit making assumptions. It just makes an ass out of
you. I am a professional who has been working with music and sound for all my adult life. What
experience do you have?

[David Empson]

Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:

> In article <1klt1gw.157u36b1bw1sw3N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>,
> dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:
>
> > Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <slrnjtof93....@krismbp.local>,
> > > Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In message <vilain-3F5EC7....@news.individual.net>
> > > > Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article <KN6dnXoIMKFXj0HS...@earthlink.com>,
> > > > > Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> On 6/15/2012 9:38 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> > > > >> > Lion Recovery
> > > > >> > OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac
> > > > >> > in the Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or
> > > > >> > reinstall OS X Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion
> > > > >> > Recovery
> > > > >> > http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks. That would suck if its HDD goes bad with the recovery! :(
> > > >
> > > > > that's why you have it on AppleCare, so you can take it into the
> > > > > AppleStore to get it's disk replaced.
> > > >
> > > > > I don't know how this will work for 3rd-party, non-Apple Drives.
> > > > > I have 5 of them, all either data or with 10.6.8. None can be
> > > > > reformatted to add a recovery partition.
> > > >
> > > > Why not?
> > >
> > > Because doing so would destroy the data on them.
> >
> > Are you not aware that Disk Utility on Mac OS X has had the ability to
> > do a non-destructive repartition since Leopard?
> >
> > The only requirements are that the drive is partitioned using Apple
> > Partition Map or GUID Partition Table (not the Windows-compatible Master
> > Boot Record), that it has enough free space, and that there are no open
> > files located in the region near the end of the drive which you want to
> > use for the new partition.

I missed one: file system must be HFS+ (Mac OS Extended) and it must be
Journaled. (I haven't tried Case-sensitive, but I expect that wouldn't
make any difference.)

> > The last point is generally only an issue for your startup drive, and
> > the usual way around it is to boot from a different drive in order to do
> > the repartition. For example, boot from the Lion recovery partition or
> > your OS install DVD, and use Disk Utility there.
> >
> > The installation process of Snow Leopard and Lion even makes use of this
> > mechanism to create a temporary partition while installing the OS. If
> > you have installed Snow Leopard directly to an external drive, it has
> > undergone a non-destructive repartition.

[...]

> This will work for a highly fragmented disk with lots of files that are
> fragmented?

Disk Utility does a defrag, but I'm not sure how hard it tries. It can
certainly move files out of the area at the end of the partition.

DU doesn't let you use all the free space on the existing partiiton, but
it lets you get quite close to it (I haven't done a recent test so can't
give you a figure).

If the disk was highly fragmented and the partition size you wanted to
create was close to the current free space, it might not be able to
defrag sufficiently.

That might be indicated initially to show a greater minimum size for the
existing partition.

If DU claimed to let you reduce the size of the existing partition and
you actually tried it, I'd expect it to either succeed with the
defragmentation, or report that it was unable to repartition and leave
the original partition map unchanged, either after having done a partial
defrag, or before it moved anything.

> I tried making a TechTool eBoot disk and it failed when I
> had over 200GB free space until I "defragmented" the disk.

Different tools involved, and I don't know if TechTool Pro tries to
defrag in that case.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[David Empson]

PhillipJones <pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:

> David Empson wrote:
> > Ant<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> >

> >> On 6/15/2012 10:44 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:

> >>
> >>>>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in
> >>>>> the Recovery HD, a new
> >>>>> feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a
> >>>>> physical disc. Learn more
> >>>>> about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

> >>>> You still need to copy that partition to another physical media. If your
> >>>> hard disk dies (hardware failure), then you lose that recovery partition
> >>>> as well as your real partition.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously you did not read the link I gave above. If you had you would
> >>> have seen this:
> >>>
> >>> If your Mac problem is a little less common — your hard drive has failed
> >>> or you've installed a hard drive without OS X, for example — Internet
> >>> Recovery takes over automatically. It downloads and starts OS X Recovery
> >>> directly from Apple servers over a broadband Internet connection. And
> >>> your Mac has access to the same OS X Recovery features online. Internet
> >>> Recovery is built into every newly-released Mac starting with the Mac
> >>> mini and MacBook Air.
> >>
> >> What happens to those with crappy Internet connections or capped?
> >
> > Assuming you are talking about how to restore Lion on a computer which
> > came with it preinstalled (and no install media):
> >
> > (a) Restore from the backup you should have anyway.
> >
> > (b) Take the computer to somewhere with a better Internet connection.
> >
> > (c) Buy a Lion installer on a thumb drive from Apple (US$65).
> >
> > (d) There are also options around buying a copy of Lion from the App
> > Store on a Mac which has a better Internet connection (US$29.99), but in
> > the case where your hard drive is hosed and you have no other installed
> > bootable Lion systems, it would need another Mac to assist with the
> > reinstall, since you need to run the Lion installer application from a
> > Snow Leopard or Lion system.
> >
> > If you already bought a copy of Lion to upgrade another computer, you
> > don't need to buy it again but you will need a copy of the installer
> > application so might need to download it again if you didn't keep one.
> >
> > There are also complexities with version compatibiity for options (c)
> > and (d), if your computer came with Lion preinstalled you need a version
> > of the Lion installer which is new enough for that model. This may
> > require re-downloading Lion from the App Store if your existing copy of
> > the installer is too old.
> >
> > For example, the mid 2011 MacBook Air and Mac Mini were the first models
> > with Lion preinstalled, and they originally came with a special build of
> > 10.7.0. You need the full installer for 10.7.1 or later to install on
> > those models.
> >
> > The mid 2012 MacBook Air and MacBook Pro which were just released will
> > have come with a special build of either 10.7.3 or 10.7.4. They will
> > need a full installer for 10.7.5 or later, which isn't available yet, so
> > the only way to restore those models at present is methods (a) or (b).
> >
> >> I assume one has to buy it?
> >
> > If you have no backups and have no access to a reasonable broadband
> > connection (or can't move your computer for some reason) then yes.

> >
> >> I assume there is a feature to make your own discs/USB drive on a working
> >> Mac in advance like on those OEM IBM PCs?
> >

> > No. Apple's official method of reinstalling Lion is to download it. They
> > don't provide any way to create a bootable installer in the manner of
> > the DVD that came with pre-Lion Macs.
> >
> > You can of course make a backup of the computer using a variety of
> > tools, but that won't be an installer, just an image which can be used
> > to restore the system.
> >
> > Note that if you use Time Machine to back up your system, a Time Machine
> > backup is not bootable. Restoring it requires booting from another drive
> > which has an installed copy of Lion, or from the Lion Recovery
> > partition.
> >
> > If you don't have either of these, you can use Internet Recovery to
> > re-download the Lion Recovery partition (about 1 GB), then boot from
> > that and use it to restore the Time Machine backup.
> >
> > It would be prudent to make sure you have a bootable Lion system on
> > another drive, e.g. a clone backup.
> >
> > It is worth noting that Apple has a "Lion Recovery Disk Assistant" tool
> > to copy the Lion Recovery partition. You could put it on a USB flash
> > drive or SD card (I think 1 GB would be big enough but haven't tried it
> > myself yet), or even copy it to your Time Machine backup drive (assuming
> > that drive is directly connected to the computer via USB, Firewire or
> > Thunderbolt - you couldn't boot from a Time Capsule, for example).
> >
> > <http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1433>
> >
>
> There is a way to create a bootable DVD install disk. Describe either on
> MacWorld or MacLife.
> 1. You use download the installer

You can't do this for a computer with Lion preinstalled, unless you had
also bought Lion from the App Store.

The recovery partition's mechanism for downloading Lion don't give you
an opportunity to intercept the download and create a bootable disk.

(I think I saw someone mention a way to intercept that download and copy
it, but it required a fair degree of hackery.)

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[David Empson]

Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <1klt962.106b40v5gfd0uN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>,

> dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:
>
> > Note that if you use Time Machine to back up your system, a Time Machine
> > backup is not bootable. Restoring it requires booting from another drive
> > which has an installed copy of Lion, or from the Lion Recovery
> > partition.
>

> Really? If I boot with option held down, my TM backup shows up as a boot
> choice (as does EFI, mind you).

Mine doesn't (on a locally connected drive). You must have a bootable
system installed on your Time Machine drive, as well as it containing a
Time Machine backup.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[David Empson]

PhillipJones <pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:

> Lloyd wrote:
> > In article<jri29e$97c$1...@news.albasani.net>,
> > PhillipJones<pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 2012-06-15 10:17 PM Ant wrote:
> >>>> Hello.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I just got a new Mac Mini at work today. I noticed something from its
> >>>> small box. Is it supposed to come with a Mac OS X 10.7.x install
> >>>> disc/USB flash drive or something in case I ever need to reinstall,
> >>>> fix, etc.? I only got these items:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Mac Mini
> >>>> 2. DVI to HDMI adapter
> >>>> 3. Power adapter
> >>>> 4. White Apple stickers
> >>>> 5. A manual (didn't see any disc and USB flash drive in it?)
> >>>>
> >>>> If I am missing it, then I hope I don't have to return since I already
> >>>> set it up, installed a bunch of software, copy my data, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you in advance. :)

> >>>
> >>> From http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> >>> Lion Recovery

> >>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in the
> >>> Recovery HD, a new feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X
> >>> Lion without a physical disc. Learn more about Lion Recovery
> >>> http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/
> >>>

> >> Good thing its at your work. Requires a Cable connecton 15 MB or more to
> >> work decent.
> >> But if your on 3MB DSL which is typical Then it may take you 36 hr with
> >> un-interrupted Connection to re-download
> >
> > I believe you are blowing a bit of smoke. Took me 45 minutes with a
> > 12Mbit Cable modem, if DSL is at 3Mbit, then it would take about 4 times
> > longer, say 4 hours.
>
> I said you need at least a Cable connection or FOIS Connection.
>
> It took me 12 hr to download Office2011 when it first come out.

>
> I tried to download LibreOffice update yesterday said it would take 15
> hrs to download.
> I have a 3MB DSL Connection.

LibreOffice is 170 megabytes.

If your browser claimed that it would take 15 hours to download, that is
11.3 megabytes per hour, or 0.188 megabytes per minute, or either 3.15
or 3.22 kilobytes per second (depending on whether the software counts a
megabyte as 1000 or 1024 kilobytes).

That's about 24 kilobits per second, which is slow by dialup internet
standards. It certainly isn't broadband. If you really have a broadband
connection and it is that slow, complain to your ISP.

Typical ADSL1 download speeds are in the order of 4 megabits per second,
or about 0.4 megabytes per second, which is in the order of 100 times
faster than dialup. Modern ADSL (2+) may be up to about 20 megabits per
second.

At 0.4 megabytes per second (moderate speed ADSL1), Lion (4 GB or about
4000 MB) would take about 10000 seconds to download, which is a little
under 3 hours.

At 2 megabytes per second (fast ADSL2+), Lion would take about half an
hour to download.

The actual maximum speed depends on the wire length between your modem
and the DSLAM (either in an exchange or a cabinet).

> Unless you have Cable/FOIS forget it.
> You have a Cable Connection. I'm sure you were able to download in 45
> minutes. Not Blowing Smoke.

I don't know about what sort of speeds these get in the US, but here in
New Zealand the best cable plans offer 100 Mbps. At that speed, Lion
would take about 7 minutes to download.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Warren Oates]

In article <1kltxyi.ocao8hjingyjN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>,

dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:

> I don't know about what sort of speeds these get in the US, but here in
> New Zealand the best cable plans offer 100 Mbps. At that speed, Lion
> would take about 7 minutes to download.

Gawd. I wish I could get 100 Mbps in Canada. We're frog-throttled to
about 5 Mbps here (600k); but I have an unlimited plan, I don't care how
long it takes whilst I'm asleep.
--

... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

[nospam]

In article <jrj5jv$51k$1...@dont-email.me>, Larry Gusaas

<larry....@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
> >>> from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.
> >> Do you have any evidence that Apple actually told them that. Good
> >> journalistic (and academic)
> >> practice requires sources for statements like that otherwise they are
> >> nothing but hearsay.
> > they cited their source. what more do you want? a personal phone call
> > from tim cook?
>
> There is no citation or link to anything from Apple. Saying "Apple has
> confirmed" isn't a
> citation. There needs to be an actual link to an Apple statement for it to be
> a citation. That
> is what good journalists provide. Otherwise it is hear-say.

no there doesn't need to be an actual link. you're delusional.

journalists don't normally provide transcripts of phone calls or
emails. in fact, some journalists go to jail over not revealing their
sources.

if you want to audit them, by all means go ahead and try to prove that
they made it up. that would be quite the revelation, since that web
site reports on quite a bit of stuff. you could be famous.

> > feel free to contact them and ask them for proof. post any replies here.
>
> It the the writer of the article (and yours since you are defending it) to
> provide verifiable
> citations for the supposed statement from Apple

absent any proof it's been falsified or that they have a questionable
track record, there's absolutely no reason to think it's bogus,
particularly since common sense tells you it's true.

> > not that it matters since your mind is made up and nothing is going to
> > convince you otherwise, no matter how convincing it may be.
>
> And I am only asking for a verifiable citation. Why don't you try publishing
> an academic
> paper, or even a paper for an university class without proper citations?

what does that have to do with journalism?

> > same for the audiophile nonsense.
>
> Hey! I am not an audiophile. You should quit making assumptions. It just
> makes an ass out of
> you. I am a professional who has been working with music and sound for all my adult life. What
> experience do you have?

you've done no such thing and it's not about my experience or your
experience for that matter.

the facts are that in repeated properly executed double-blind tests,
listeners have consistently *not* been able to tell the difference
between a quality mp3/aac and an original cd recording.

the only times they can is when the mp3/aac is low quality or the test
was biased. obviously, a crappy quality mp3 is going to sound worse
than an original recording. that's because it's crap quality, not
because it's mp3. only those with an agenda try to pawn it off as the
fault of mp3.

the reality is that people *think* they can tell but when the rubber
meets the road, they *can't*.

and as i said before, even test equipment can't measure a difference in
some cases. people claim they can hear a difference between different
wires but if you put those wires on the bench, there's no measurable
electrical difference, thus there *can't* be any difference in sound.

[nospam]

In article <michelle-99EC94...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:

> > > Problem is that *they said* that Apple confirmed it; that's
> > > second-hand information, or what is commonly known as hearsay. One
> > > would have to trust them in order to believe that Apple actually said
> > > it.
> >
> > do you have any evidence they can't be trusted? or maybe a statement
> > from apple saying they didn't confirm any such thing? didn't think so.
>

> I didn't say they can't be trusted. I don't know whether they can be
> trusted.

do you have any evidence they can't be trusted, such as other falsified
reports? didn't think so.

> > > Of course, this doesn't mean that Apple didn't say it, only that we
> > > haven't seen Apple's direct statement.
> >
> > apple confirmed it.
>

> They said that Apple confirmed it; I have not seen any confirmation from
> Apple, nor have I seen any corroborating reports from other sources.

call apple yourself. 408-996-1010. ask for tim.

> They may very well be telling the truth, but I have no way of knowing
> whether they are, and neither do you.

feel free to prove it's false. absent any evidence to the contrary, it
stands on its own.

[nospam]

In article <slrnjtqase....@krismbp.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> > feel free to prove it's false.
>

> LOGIC 101 FAIL.
>
> You do not prove something is false. You prove it's true. Only. Exclusively.

some people are claiming that pocket-lint fabricated the story about
what apple said how mountain lion will be distributed.

prove they fabricated it.

> > absent any evidence to the contrary, it stands on its own.
>

> No, absent any evidence it doesn't stand at all.

they provided the evidence in the article. they said apple confirmed it.

anyone who believes they made that up is welcome to provide evidence
proving they lied.

call apple. get an official statement.

[David Empson]

Warren Oates <warren...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <1kltxyi.ocao8hjingyjN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>,
> dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:
>
> > I don't know about what sort of speeds these get in the US, but here in
> > New Zealand the best cable plans offer 100 Mbps. At that speed, Lion
> > would take about 7 minutes to download.
>
> Gawd. I wish I could get 100 Mbps in Canada. We're frog-throttled to
> about 5 Mbps here (600k); but I have an unlimited plan, I don't care how
> long it takes whilst I'm asleep.

Unfortunately cable is only available in New Zealand from one supplier
and in two cities (Wellington and Christchurch, and you may recall the
latter has had major earthquakes in the last couple of years, which has
caused all sorts of problems for the cable network there).

The high end plans are 100 Mbps down, 10 Mbps up. The mainstream plans
are 15 Mbps down, 2 Mbps up. I'm on the latter, and as long as the
network isn't too congested I can get around 1 to 1.5 MB/s downloads
from fast enough servers (e.g. local Akamai mirror of Apple).

New Zealand has data caps on broadband plans. I'm on a 20 GB per month
plan (about the middle of the range of plans for the mainstream speeds
on cable), but would like to go up to the next plan (40 GB). The high
end plans get up to 150 GB per month. Once you hit the cap on cable, you
pay for additional data in units of 500 MB, 1 GB or 2 GB.

Most broadband in New Zealand is ADSL (usually 2+ these days), and the
dominant provider has recently improved their data caps on some
packages, making my current plan look rather weedy by comparsion (I
could get 120 GB per month for $10 more than I'm paying now to get 20
GB), but probably a little slower for downloads and a lot slower for
uploads. I think my cable provider will have to do something to improve
their plans, or they will lose a lot of customers.

ADSL plans deal with exceeding the cap by either charging per gigabyte
or slowing down to roughly dialup speeds until the end of the billing
cycle (some let you pick either method).

New Zealand is having a fibre optic network rollout over the next few
years, initially concentrating on schools and businesses, then moving
into residential areas, initially areas not covered by a high-speed
network. In Wellington that means residential areas covered by the
competition's cable network are NOT getting fibre soon, so I'm stuck
with cable if I want better speed, unless I move to a different area.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 7:16 PM nospam wrote:
> In article <slrnjtqase....@krismbp.local>, Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> feel free to prove it's false.
>> LOGIC 101 FAIL.
>>
>> You do not prove something is false. You prove it's true. Only. Exclusively.
> some people are claiming that pocket-lint fabricated the story about
> what apple said how mountain lion will be distributed.
>
> prove they fabricated it.

I haven't seen anyone say pocket-lint fabricated the story. However I have not seen the story
corroborated by citations to actual sources in the story. I do not know anything about
pocket-link and have never seen any of their articles before.

>>> absent any evidence to the contrary, it stands on its own.
>> No, absent any evidence it doesn't stand at all.
> they provided the evidence in the article. they said apple confirmed it.

That is not evidence. Without substantiation it is hear-say.

> anyone who believes they made that up is welcome to provide evidence
> proving they lied.
>
> call apple. get an official statement.

Why don't you find corroboration for the story? You are the one insisting it is factual.
Otherwise it just another rumour about Apple, which are a dime a dozen. Occasionally, one of
them is true.

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2012-06-16 6:22 PM Warren Oates wrote:
> Gawd. I wish I could get 100 Mbps in Canada.

Yes you can. In Saskatchewan, Sasktel is now laying out fiber optic lines in some centres with
up to 200 Mbps.
Shaw Cable offers up to 250 Mbps, depending on location.

I have 25 Mbps

[PhillipJones]

PhillipJones wrote:
> David Empson wrote:
>> Ant<a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/15/2012 10:44 PM PT, Larry Gusaas typed:
>>>

>>>>>> OS X Lion includes a built-in set of tools for repairing your Mac in
>>>>>> the Recovery HD, a new
>>>>>> feature that lets you repair disks or reinstall OS X Lion without a
>>>>>> physical disc. Learn more
>>>>>> about Lion Recovery http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

>> Note that if you use Time Machine to back up your system, a Time Machine
>> backup is not bootable. Restoring it requires booting from another drive
>> which has an installed copy of Lion, or from the Lion Recovery
>> partition.
>>

>> If you don't have either of these, you can use Internet Recovery to
>> re-download the Lion Recovery partition (about 1 GB), then boot from
>> that and use it to restore the Time Machine backup.
>>
>> It would be prudent to make sure you have a bootable Lion system on
>> another drive, e.g. a clone backup.
>>
>> It is worth noting that Apple has a "Lion Recovery Disk Assistant" tool
>> to copy the Lion Recovery partition. You could put it on a USB flash
>> drive or SD card (I think 1 GB would be big enough but haven't tried it
>> myself yet), or even copy it to your Time Machine backup drive (assuming
>> that drive is directly connected to the computer via USB, Firewire or
>> Thunderbolt - you couldn't boot from a Time Capsule, for example).
>>
>> <http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1433>
>>
>
> There is a way to create a bootable DVD install disk. Describe either on
> MacWorld or MacLife.
> 1. You use download the installer

> 2. Then immediately move it out of Applications.
> 3. Next you Hold control key down and click on the application
> 4. Choose Show Package contents.
> 5. Look for an Installer .dmg File
> 6. Move a Copy of this to desktop.
> 7. Open Disk Utility and locate the installer dmg
> 8. choose to create DVD from the dmg file.
>
> you can also use the same to install on a USB stick. as well . The USB
> stick or jump drive has to be double the size of the contents of the dmg
> so there will be enough working space for the installer to work. If
> There is not enough room your newly created installer will corrupt the
> USB stick immediately.

Another Poster has posted a link to instructions. IF you download it
through Apple and not the store you'll end being able to control the
download and opening of correct Dmg file to make the install disk.

[Phillip Jones]

Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-16 13:03 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> In article <jrib8c$1hb$1...@news.albasani.net>,
>> PhillipJones <pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> They taken the attitude if you don't have high sped GO F yourself.
>>
>> If you live near an Apple Store, you can take the computer there and
>> download using its internet connection. Sure, it's not as convenient as
>> doing it at home, but it is possible.
>
> Define "near".
>
>
Nearest for me is 60 miles south. Original it would have been a 5 minute
ride up town a few years nearest Store in VA is about 3.5 hours away.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net/ mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com

[Phillip Jones]

Paul Sture wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:22:21 -0400, Barry Margolin wrote:
>
>> In article<5qiua9-...@mint-hp.chingola.ch>,
>> Paul Sture<paul....@sture.ch> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> How big is the download? I have a 3000 Kbit cable service and given a
>>> non-busy server at the other end I regularly get 3.1 Megabytes/sec
>>> download speeds (according to Firefox - not sure how accurate that is).
>
> I missed a zero out there and for a bonus got the number wrong too :-(
>
> I've just looked at my latest bill and I am on what they now call "Fiber
> Power Internet 25". It used to have "25000" in the name.
>
> The web page describing it is here:
>
> <http://www.upc-cablecom.ch/en/b2c/internet/fiberpower25.htm>
>
> Hmm, I see that double the speed is just another 10 bucks a month...
>
>> That doesn't seem right. 3 Megabytes is 24 Megabits. Even with
>> technologies like PowerBoost, I wouldn't expect to be able to squeeze 24
>> Mbps through a 3 Mbps connection. So either FF's throughput report is
>> wrong, you're wrong about the connection speed, or you're also getting
>> bits and bytes mixed up.
>
> 25 Megabits sounds right then. The 3.1 MB/s figure is not just what I
> see regularly in Firefox but what command line SCP reports for downloads.
>
>> Actually, another possibility is that compression is taking place during
>> the transfer, but FF is reporting the throughput in terms of the
>> decompressed data. What do you see in Activity Monitor's network
>> statistics when you're doing one of these transfers?
>
> So let's try that with a download of a tar.gz dump of my hosting ISP
> account. Both my home ISP and my hosting ISP are within 50 kilometers of
> each other, and I am within 30 kilometers of the home one, so network
> latency shouldn't be too much of an issue.
>
> With a 160 MB file scp reported 3.0 MB/s overall and Activity Monitor
> reported peaks of 3.31 MB/s, sometimes dropping as low as 2.7 but for
> most of the time at or above 3.0.

The Main Office of my ISP is across the road from my house. However they
depend on Phone Company connections Century Link. and some of the
infrastructure was first put in in 1947.

[Phillip Jones]

Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <192va9-...@mint-hp.chingola.ch>,

> Paul Sture <paul....@sture.ch> wrote:
>
>> So let's try that with a download of a tar.gz dump of my hosting ISP
>> account. Both my home ISP and my hosting ISP are within 50 kilometers
>> of each other, and I am within 30 kilometers of the home one, so
>> network latency shouldn't be too much of an issue.
>

> Mmm, you can't be sure of that. Depends where the two ISPs interconnect.
> You should do a traceroute to find that out.
>

here is some info about my connection as of now the best its been almost
a week:
https://skitch.com/pjonescet/ebeiu/speed-test-bandwidth-broadband-internet-services
https://skitch.com/pjonescet/ebei2/speedtest.net-the-global-broadband-speed-test
https://skitch.com/pjonescet/ebesf/pingtest.net-the-global-broadband-quality-test