APFS/High Sierra

[Davoud]

Before I upgrade:

If I understand <https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208018> correctly,
some of my Macs will not receive APFS. "Fusion Drives, traditional hard
disk drives (HDDs), and non-Mac volumes aren't converted. You can't opt
out of the transition to APFS.

My unsupported Macs are:
- two iMacs with Fusion drives.
- two iMacs with mechanical drives.

One MBP with an Apple SSD will receive APFS.

But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
third-party SSDs support APFS?

I have numerous FireWire (FW) external backup drives.

I'm fuzzy on what will play well with what. In making a SuperDuper
bootable clone from the supported MBP with an Apple SSD to an external
FW drive, does the file system get copied as well as the data? IOW,
will SuperDuper backups work from an APFS SSD to a FireWire HD?

TIA!

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

[nospam]

In article <250920171931300867%st...@sky.net>, Davoud <st...@sky.net>
wrote:

> But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
> third-party SSDs support APFS?

ssds or hard drives don't care what file system is used. the problem is
whether the operating system being used does.

however, because they're ssd, they will probably be upgraded.

> I have numerous FireWire (FW) external backup drives.
>
> I'm fuzzy on what will play well with what. In making a SuperDuper
> bootable clone from the supported MBP with an Apple SSD to an external
> FW drive, does the file system get copied as well as the data? IOW,
> will SuperDuper backups work from an APFS SSD to a FireWire HD?

superduper does not support apfs yet.

carbon copy cloner does and has for a while now.

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-09-25 19:31, Davoud wrote:

> But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
> third-party SSDs support APFS?

Any disk will "support" APFS. But Apple has noticed that rotating disk
have performance issues with APFS so will only upgrade SSDs as system
drives for now.

Look at the System Profiler/System Report to find your disks (Storage).

Look at "medium type".

Medium Type: SSD
Medium Type: Rotational

I **suspect** this may be what Apple uses to determine which systems
have their system drives converted.

Very few would know for sure at this point.

> I have numerous FireWire (FW) external backup drives.

The installer will only convert the system disk partition that is being
upgraded and its accompanying Restore partition (as they are merged into
a single GUID partition and live as separate APFS partitions.

All other drives are left alone, irrespective of SSD/rotational,
permanent or removable.

And if you have a number of different bootage drives, I think the
installer will only convert the one system disk partition that it is
upgrading to High Sierra.

You can use Disk Utility to convert other drives later on. Not clear if
it will allow any bootable (but currently not system disk) drive to be
converted. Converting a Snow Leopard disk is theoretically possible, but
if you ever try to boot, the boot process will find/load the first boot
file, but that one will fail to load subsequent files as there is no HFS
catalogue to parse to find files.

> I'm fuzzy on what will play well with what. In making a SuperDuper
> bootable clone from the supported MBP with an Apple SSD to an external
> FW drive, does the file system get copied as well as the data?

If you clone your Sierra HFS+ system drive before upgrade, the backup
will be an HFS+ Sierra.

If you then decide to return to Siera, when you restore the backup over
the High Siera APFS drive, It will reformat the GUID partition
containing the APFS file system into an HFS+ GUID partition and load the
files in it. Depending on the cloning software it may or may not
recreate the Recovery GUID partition (which creases to exist in High
Sierra as the recovery becomes an APFS partition that shares storage
with the system disk).

[nospam]

In article <59c9a56a$0$12398$b1db1813$bfc9...@news.astraweb.com>, JF

Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
> > third-party SSDs support APFS?
>
> Any disk will "support" APFS. But Apple has noticed that rotating disk
> have performance issues with APFS

no they haven't, because there aren't any such issues. you've been told
this before.

> so will only upgrade SSDs as system
> drives for now.

because it's the most fully tested configuration.

the other configurations will happen soon.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2017-09-26, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> Apple has noticed that rotating disk have performance issues with APFS
> so will only upgrade SSDs as system drives for now.

No matter how many times you repeat this asinine FUDish assertion, it is
still FALSE.

Troll on if you must.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-09-25 23:52, Jolly Roger wrote:

> No matter how many times you repeat this asinine FUDish assertion, it is
> still FALSE.

So you deny Apple mentioned APFS performamnce on HDDs was an issue they
were working on?

You deny that APFS does not rewrite blocks in-situ and instead moves
blocks being updated to other areas on disk? Do you deny this results
in a lot of file fragmentation, and that fragmented files are a big
performance issue on HDDs and a minor one on SSDs? (SSDs still have to
process more IO requests).


If you have looked at how APFS works, and understand how disks work, and
you look at the hints given by Apple, it is pretty obvious that
performance is the issue that prevents APFS from being deployed on HDDs
as system drives.

APFS was designed to make perfect use os of SSDs. But there are issues
on HDDs.

[nospam]

In article <59c9e48b$0$63735$b1db1813$d06e...@news.astraweb.com>, JF

Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> > No matter how many times you repeat this asinine FUDish assertion, it is
> > still FALSE.
>
> So you deny Apple mentioned APFS performamnce on HDDs was an issue they
> were working on?

they're always working to improve performance, on everything.

> You deny that APFS does not rewrite blocks in-situ and instead moves
> blocks being updated to other areas on disk? Do you deny this results
> in a lot of file fragmentation, and that fragmented files are a big
> performance issue on HDDs and a minor one on SSDs? (SSDs still have to
> process more IO requests).

nonsense.

> If you have looked at how APFS works, and understand how disks work, and
> you look at the hints given by Apple, it is pretty obvious that
> performance is the issue that prevents APFS from being deployed on HDDs
> as system drives.

nonsense

> APFS was designed to make perfect use os of SSDs. But there are issues
> on HDDs.

no.

[David Empson]

Davoud <st...@sky.net> wrote:

> Before I upgrade:
>
> If I understand <https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208018> correctly,
> some of my Macs will not receive APFS. "Fusion Drives, traditional hard
> disk drives (HDDs), and non-Mac volumes aren't converted. You can't opt
> out of the transition to APFS.
>
> My unsupported Macs are:
> - two iMacs with Fusion drives.
> - two iMacs with mechanical drives.
>
> One MBP with an Apple SSD will receive APFS.
>
> But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
> third-party SSDs support APFS?

Assuming it hasn't changed in the public release, those will be
converted automatically. I tested installing a late developer beta of
High Sierra on a MacBook Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) with Crucial (MX200)
and Samsung (850 EVO) SSDs and they were auto converted to APFS. (I was
swapping drives in the computer at the time, as I wanted to install the
Samsung SSD in place of the original hard drive, and I had the Crucial
one uncomitted so had a chance to try it at the same time.)

Auto conversion did NOT occur when the same drives were installed in an
external enclosure (OWC Mercury Elite Pro Mini, connected via Firewire
800 or USB 3.0).

Disk Utility in Sierra should provide enough of a clue as to what will
happen for your particular drive: do a get info on the drive icon and
see what it says on the "Solid state" line. Mine says "Yes" for the
configurations that were auto converted, "No" for the ones that weren't.

TRIM support is a separate issue: the Samsung SSD (currently with the GM
candidate installed) shows that TRIM is not supported. I haven't used
trimforce on it yet but will do after I install the public release and
start testing in earnest.

> I have numerous FireWire (FW) external backup drives.
>
> I'm fuzzy on what will play well with what. In making a SuperDuper
> bootable clone from the supported MBP with an Apple SSD to an external
> FW drive, does the file system get copied as well as the data? IOW,
> will SuperDuper backups work from an APFS SSD to a FireWire HD?

I haven't tried cloning yet, but...

SuperDuper 3.0b1 is available and supports copying from APFS to HFS+
with the clone being bootable. It is a beta and appears to have rough
edges at this point.

http://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/index.php/shadedgrey/2017/09/25/

See also the previous blog entry about work in progress on APFS support.

http://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/index.php/shadedgrey/2017/09/13/

SuperDuper can't create a bootable APFS volume yet. For now, that means
if you are cloning an APFS drive to an HFS+ external drive, to restore
it you need to do a clean install of High Sierra, then migrate from the
clone during initial setup.

Carbon Copy Cloner 5 is further along in APFS support, but is also
relying on reverse engineering details of how APFS is implemented, so
Apple might break something.

https://bombich.com/kb/ccc5/everything-you-need-know-about-carbon-copy-cloner-and-apfs

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Davoud]

Davoud:

> > Before I upgrade:
> > If I understand <https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208018> correctly,
> > some of my Macs will not receive APFS. "Fusion Drives, traditional hard
> > disk drives (HDDs), and non-Mac volumes aren't converted. You can't opt
> > out of the transition to APFS.

> > My unsupported Macs are...

David Empson:
> Assuming it hasn't changed in the public release...

Thanks for taking time to reply. I'll have to chew on that a bit. This
marks the first time in my memory that I haven't jumped on an update on
day 1. I imagine I'll be ready by the end of the week, however, doing
those Macs that don't support APFS first.

Thanks again!

[Lewis]

In message <59c9e48b$0$63735$b1db1813$d06e...@news.astraweb.com> JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2017-09-25 23:52, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> No matter how many times you repeat this asinine FUDish assertion, it is
>> still FALSE.

> fragmented files are a big performance issue on HDDs

No, they really aren't and haven't been for the better part of a decade.
the OS defrags files that need it automatically, quite intelligently.

> If you have looked at how APFS works, and understand how disks work

Neither of these things apply to you.

> you look at the hints given by Apple,

You make proclamations of fact based on your interpretation of these
so-called hints. this the hallmark of the FUDster troll.

> it is pretty obvious that performance is the issue that prevents APFS
> from being deployed on HDDs as system drives.

It is not at all obvious. It is certainly possible that performance is
one of the issues. However, if it was the only issue, Apple would have
shipped with APFS on rust drives as an option.

> APFS was designed to make perfect use os of SSDs. But there are issues
> on HDDs.

The "issues" appear to be a lack of testing. In the public beta they
were hoping to get a large enough base of people testing High Sierra on
spinning disks, but nearly everyone was running it off an SSD, so their
test pool was constrained.



--
'Tell me, sir Samuel, do you know the phrase "Quis custodiet isos
custodes?"? (...) It means "Who guards the guards themselves?" (...) Who
watches the Watch?' --Feet of Clay

[Davoud]

Tim Streater wrote:

Lewis sigged: ...

> The word "sir" should be capitalised. And it's "ipsos".

You had to screw up *my* on-topic thread. I wouldn't have known that
Lewis replied if not for your taking his bait.

[Krzysztof Mitko]

On 26 Sep 2017, David Empson wrote
(in article<1ncyop7.bhyq9j1krs1ilN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz>):

> Davoud <st...@sky.net> wrote:
>
> > But what about the two MB Pros with aftermarket (Crucial) SSDs? Do
> > third-party SSDs support APFS?
>
> Assuming it hasn't changed in the public release, those will be
> converted automatically. I tested installing a late developer beta of
> High Sierra on a MacBook Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) with Crucial (MX200)
> and Samsung (850 EVO) SSDs and they were auto converted to APFS. (I was
> swapping drives in the computer at the time, as I wanted to install the
> Samsung SSD in place of the original hard drive, and I had the Crucial
> one uncomitted so had a chance to try it at the same time.)

It’s the same in the public release - Samsung Evo got converted
automatically in my case.
--
Chemical engineers do it in packed beds.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2017-09-26, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2017-09-25 23:52, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> No matter how many times you repeat this asinine FUDish assertion, it is
>> still FALSE.
>
> So you deny Apple mentioned APFS performamnce on HDDs was an issue they
> were working on?

The WWDC slide to which you are referring did not imply that performance
improvements had anything to do with HDDs. Those were two separate
bullets on the slide (along with other unrelated bullets) and you tried
to combine just two of several separate bullets on that slide in an
attempt to injected that the performance improvements were only about
HDDs all on your own.

> APFS was designed to make perfect use os of SSDs. But there are issues
> on HDDs.

Repeating the lie doesn't make it a fact. #trollfail

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-09-26 17:23, Lewis wrote:


> It is not at all obvious. It is certainly possible that performance is
> one of the issues. However, if it was the only issue, Apple would have
> shipped with APFS on rust drives as an option.

Apple has enabled Disk Utility to do HSF to APFS conversion on hard
drives. It works. It's been tested in the field since last year as I
recall. But that option only works for non system disks.

You need to run the Installer to convert a boot drive, and I strongly
suspect that with the right keys pressed, an option to convert an HDD
system drive to APFS would appear.

> The "issues" appear to be a lack of testing. In the public beta they
> were hoping to get a large enough base of people testing High Sierra on
> spinning disks, but nearly everyone was running it off an SSD, so their
> test pool was constrained.

Since the beta did NOT apply to boot drives and only supported secondary
drives, I suspect that vast majority were spinning drives.

[Lewis]

The beta most certainly applied to boot drives, and the vast majority
were SSDs.


--
Criticizing evolutionary theory because Darwin was limited is like
claiming computers don't work because Chuck Babbage didn't foresee Duke
Nukem 3.

[Lewis]

In message <260920172234169083%timst...@greenbee.net> Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnoslhb2....@snow.local>, Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> sigged:

>> 'Tell me, sir Samuel, do you know the phrase "Quis custodiet
>> isos custodes?"? (...) It means "Who guards the guards
>> themselves?" (...) Who watches the Watch?' --Feet of Clay

> The word "sir" should be capitalised. And it's "ipsos".

Thanks, fixed.


--
Are you a lucky little lady in the city of light Or just another lost
angel?