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email bouncing prob
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Frank
Jun 24, 2012, 9:30:26 AM6/24/12
to
I posted this problem quite some time ago. It has been unresolved by
Apple Tech Support and both (windstream and aol) involved ISP support
services. Issue is with bounced emails. My emails from my mac
mini v 10.6.8 OS sent to one receiver only at an aol addy bounce. All
others to aol receivers do not bounce. Emails from the sender that
bounce to me do not bounce. She has even carried her mac laptop (OS
10.7) to local apple store for them to try to solve the problem; they
say that I am not on her blocked list and that the problem is not with
her machine. AOL techs say it is not with AOL. Windstream techs say
it is not my machine nor is it my emailer nor their server.
When I send email after about 3 or 4 hours later it says it tried the
maximum number of times and was bounced.
If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
My layman’s idea is that the source of the the problem is one of the
“handshakes.”
I believe that the handshakes from my mac-mini to the router and then
the modem and to the windstream server are without problems. I
believe the handshake problem is either with aol server or email
recipient’s hardware or software and, in light of my experiment, it
is with aol server or recipient’s problem with mail from my regular
mailbox.
AOL and her apple store say it is on this end.. not their end.
I was under the opinion that all filters, restrictions, etc. are made
by receivers, not senders. That opinion is based on over 15 years
of experience and never having encountered this problem in the
past. Examining the long headers and raw sources of involved
emails reveal no clues that I can understand to suggest that the
problem is on my end.
What’s going on?
Apple Tech Support and both (windstream and aol) involved ISP support
services. Issue is with bounced emails. My emails from my mac
mini v 10.6.8 OS sent to one receiver only at an aol addy bounce. All
others to aol receivers do not bounce. Emails from the sender that
bounce to me do not bounce. She has even carried her mac laptop (OS
10.7) to local apple store for them to try to solve the problem; they
say that I am not on her blocked list and that the problem is not with
her machine. AOL techs say it is not with AOL. Windstream techs say
it is not my machine nor is it my emailer nor their server.
When I send email after about 3 or 4 hours later it says it tried the
maximum number of times and was bounced.
If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
My layman’s idea is that the source of the the problem is one of the
“handshakes.”
I believe that the handshakes from my mac-mini to the router and then
the modem and to the windstream server are without problems. I
believe the handshake problem is either with aol server or email
recipient’s hardware or software and, in light of my experiment, it
is with aol server or recipient’s problem with mail from my regular
mailbox.
AOL and her apple store say it is on this end.. not their end.
I was under the opinion that all filters, restrictions, etc. are made
by receivers, not senders. That opinion is based on over 15 years
of experience and never having encountered this problem in the
past. Examining the long headers and raw sources of involved
emails reveal no clues that I can understand to suggest that the
problem is on my end.
What’s going on?
Bruce Esquibel
Jun 24, 2012, 9:42:17 AM6/24/12
to
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
> What?s going on?
The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
If email is rejected by a host, there is a reason in the returned mail.
Unless they are accepting the mail and throwing it away afterwards, the
mail being rejected does have a reason for the bounce.
AOL is a pain in the ass to deal with and their mail services. It's more
likely it's on their end than yours based on the number of restrictions they
have to accept mail.
But if you send mail and it comes back, there is a reason in the headers
explaining the reason it was bounced. It might be cryptic but it's there.
You need to start there rather than taking a bunch of wild guesses about
spam filters, os errors and other things.
-bruce
b...@ripco.com
> What?s going on?
The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
If email is rejected by a host, there is a reason in the returned mail.
Unless they are accepting the mail and throwing it away afterwards, the
mail being rejected does have a reason for the bounce.
AOL is a pain in the ass to deal with and their mail services. It's more
likely it's on their end than yours based on the number of restrictions they
have to accept mail.
But if you send mail and it comes back, there is a reason in the headers
explaining the reason it was bounced. It might be cryptic but it's there.
You need to start there rather than taking a bunch of wild guesses about
spam filters, os errors and other things.
-bruce
b...@ripco.com
Alan Browne
Jun 24, 2012, 10:33:27 AM6/24/12
to
On 2012-06-24 09:30 , Frank wrote:
> What’s going on?
In my experience with many people, happiness has been found rapidly by
dumping AOL.
AOL is worse than Yahoo in trying to corral people into what they
desperately need the internet to be in order for them to survive with
their mid 1980's business model. They impose their narrow view and
policy in order to try to railroad you into their business system. This
inevitably bleeds out with the effect that you're seeing.
Google Mail provides full POP/IMAP services and they impose no silly
restrictions on how you use Google services.
Even Yahoo (no POP/IMAP unless you pay extra) and hotmail (free POP) are
better than anything AOL offer.
--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.
> What’s going on?
In my experience with many people, happiness has been found rapidly by
dumping AOL.
AOL is worse than Yahoo in trying to corral people into what they
desperately need the internet to be in order for them to survive with
their mid 1980's business model. They impose their narrow view and
policy in order to try to railroad you into their business system. This
inevitably bleeds out with the effect that you're seeing.
Google Mail provides full POP/IMAP services and they impose no silly
restrictions on how you use Google services.
Even Yahoo (no POP/IMAP unless you pay extra) and hotmail (free POP) are
better than anything AOL offer.
--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.
Frank
Jun 24, 2012, 10:42:01 AM6/24/12
to
On Jun 24, 9:42 am, Bruce Esquibel <b...@ripco.com> wrote:
> The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
I removed recipient and my email addy. Below is what was in the
> The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
bounced message
From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer...@windstream.net>
Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
Date: June 22, 2012 10:41:09 AM EDT
To:
Return-Path: <>
Return-Path: <>
Received: from pacmmta53.windstream.net ([10.135.133.112]) by
pamxfep03-srv.windstream.net with ESMTP id
<20120622144109.SGYD1883.pamxfep03-
srv.winds...@pacmmta53.windstream.net> for
<gn...@windstream.net>; Fri, 22 Jun 2012 10:41:09 -0400
Message-Id: <50.B2.21063.50484EF4@pacmmta53>
X-Binding: ispmx_bounce
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
boundary="tXHx1UdCSGrqimyXI638Da+QrRMH9J12BWnIDQ=="
______________________________________________________________
This message was created automatically by the Windstream mail system.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)
failed:
Arrival-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:19:35 -0400
Reporting-MTA: dns; pacmmta53
Status: 5.4.7
Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 10:41:08 -0400
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 5.4.7 [internal] exceeded max retries
without delivery
Action: failed
Final-Recipient: rfc822;
------ This is a copy of the headers of the original message. ------
Return-Path: <>
X-WS-COS: WSOB803
X-Cloudmark-Category: Undefined:Undefined
X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1
cv=ItSgKUvEgpuArvFeGcEX9ho8h0+4pTt73K5WgrMP114= c=1 sm=0
a=0piI4fIv_aUA:10 a=UT_QgiwtmQIA:10 a=clEpTVgCggREzLBYJPYA:9
a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=NzwGMs8F3Y0lFmYPEYuFeg==:117
X-Cloudmark-Score: 0
Received: from [98.17.159.188] ([98.17.159.188:56820]
helo=[192.168.1.101])
by pacmmta53 (envelope-from < >)
(ecelerity 2.2.3.47 r(39824M)) with ESMTP
id 77/3F-21063-6C454EF4; Fri, 22 Jun 2012 07:19:35 -0400
From: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-
Mail-1--867962044
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084)
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
Suze
Jun 24, 2012, 10:42:09 AM6/24/12
to
In article
<bd85497e-953c-44b1...@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
deleting the entire account (might want to save your mail first if you
do this) and then setting up the account fresh from scratch again? Other
possible alternative, set up a whole new computer user account on the
mini and see how that works.
--
Good judgment results from experience, and experience results from bad judgment.
<bd85497e-953c-44b1...@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
> If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
> 10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
> it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
> set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
> receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
> that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
Sounds like something's corrupted *somewhere*. Have you tried totally
> If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
> 10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
> it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
> set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
> receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
> that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
deleting the entire account (might want to save your mail first if you
do this) and then setting up the account fresh from scratch again? Other
possible alternative, set up a whole new computer user account on the
mini and see how that works.
--
Good judgment results from experience, and experience results from bad judgment.
Jolly Roger
Jun 24, 2012, 11:31:46 AM6/24/12
to
In article
<bd85497e-953c-44b1...@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
<bd85497e-953c-44b1...@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
> I posted this problem quite some time ago. It has been unresolved by
> Apple Tech Support and both (windstream and aol) involved ISP support
> services. Issue is with bounced emails. My emails from my mac
> mini v 10.6.8 OS sent to one receiver only at an aol addy bounce. All
> others to aol receivers do not bounce. Emails from the sender that
> bounce to me do not bounce. [snip]
> Apple Tech Support and both (windstream and aol) involved ISP support
> services. Issue is with bounced emails. My emails from my mac
> mini v 10.6.8 OS sent to one receiver only at an aol addy bounce. All
> others to aol receivers do not bounce. Emails from the sender that
>
> When I send email after about 3 or 4 hours later it says it tried the
> maximum number of times and was bounced.
>
> If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
> 10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
> it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
> set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
> receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
> that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
In article
> When I send email after about 3 or 4 hours later it says it tried the
> maximum number of times and was bounced.
>
> If I use webmail mine do not bounce. I sent one from an emac with OS
> 10.6.8 and it did not bounce. My addy is the same on that machine and
> it goes through the same router and and dsl modem. As an experiment I
> set up a special mailbox on my mac-mini Mail for the problem
> receiver. The bouncing problem did not occur when I used
> that mailbox to send problem recipient emails.
<e444c86d-a604-4b98...@m24g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
> I removed recipient and my email addy. Below is what was in the
> bounced message
>
>
> From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer...@windstream.net>
> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
> Date: June 22, 2012 10:41:09 AM EDT
> To:
> Return-Path: <>
> Return-Path: <>
> Received: from pacmmta53.windstream.net ([10.135.133.112]) by
> pamxfep03-srv.windstream.net with ESMTP id
> <20120622144109.SGYD1883.pamxfep03-
> srv.winds...@pacmmta53.windstream.net> for
> <gn...@windstream.net>; Fri, 22 Jun 2012 10:41:09 -0400
> Message-Id: <50.B2.21063.50484EF4@pacmmta53>
> X-Binding: ispmx_bounce
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> boundary="tXHx1UdCSGrqimyXI638Da+QrRMH9J12BWnIDQ=="
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> This message was created automatically by the Windstream mail system.
>
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)
> failed:
I suspect you have a subtle misspelling in the recipient's email address
> I removed recipient and my email addy. Below is what was in the
> bounced message
>
>
> From: Mail Delivery System <Mailer...@windstream.net>
> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
> Date: June 22, 2012 10:41:09 AM EDT
> To:
> Return-Path: <>
> Return-Path: <>
> Received: from pacmmta53.windstream.net ([10.135.133.112]) by
> pamxfep03-srv.windstream.net with ESMTP id
> <20120622144109.SGYD1883.pamxfep03-
> srv.winds...@pacmmta53.windstream.net> for
> <gn...@windstream.net>; Fri, 22 Jun 2012 10:41:09 -0400
> Message-Id: <50.B2.21063.50484EF4@pacmmta53>
> X-Binding: ispmx_bounce
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> boundary="tXHx1UdCSGrqimyXI638Da+QrRMH9J12BWnIDQ=="
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> This message was created automatically by the Windstream mail system.
>
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es)
> failed:
in your address book. Unfortunately, since you've omitted it
(understandably), there is no way we can help you by examining it. I
suggest carefully looking at each and every character of the bounce
message and comparing it with a known good, like the one you sent from
the special mailbox in Mail.
--
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.
JR
Barry Margolin
Jun 24, 2012, 12:22:56 PM6/24/12
to
In article <jollyroger-03846...@news.individual.net>,
Wouldn't you expect that to cause an immediate "Unknown recipient"
bounce, not a "Too many retries" error several hours later?
Here's a troubleshooting step: Send an email from the Mini and the eMac
to another recipient at AOL. Then have him extract the full headers from
both messages. Compare them and find the differences (other than things
that should differ, like timestamps). One of these differences could be
triggering the AOL block.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
bounce, not a "Too many retries" error several hours later?
Here's a troubleshooting step: Send an email from the Mini and the eMac
to another recipient at AOL. Then have him extract the full headers from
both messages. Compare them and find the differences (other than things
that should differ, like timestamps). One of these differences could be
triggering the AOL block.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Wes Groleau
Jun 24, 2012, 3:23:34 PM6/24/12
to
On 06-24-2012 10:42, Frank wrote:
> On Jun 24, 9:42 am, Bruce Esquibel <b...@ripco.com> wrote:
>
>> The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
>
> I removed recipient and my email addy. Below is what was in the
> bounced message
>
> [snip]
> On Jun 24, 9:42 am, Bruce Esquibel <b...@ripco.com> wrote:
>
>> The answer is, what exactly does the bounced message say?
>
> I removed recipient and my email addy. Below is what was in the
> bounced message
>
>
>
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 5.4.7 [internal] exceeded max retries
> without delivery
You should have received an earlier message telling about the "original"
>
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 5.4.7 [internal] exceeded max retries
> without delivery
problem and saying it will keep trying. This one only says it's giving up.
--
Wes Groleau
Change is inevitable. We need to learn that “inevitable" is
neither a synonym for “good" nor for “bad.”
Message has been deleted
Barry Margolin
Jun 24, 2012, 8:58:53 PM6/24/12
to
In article <vilain-D9FE64....@news.individual.net>,
Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> In article <barmar-5A2D57....@news.eternal-september.org>,
> It's your call on if you want to continue using AOL or not.
He's not using AOL, he's trying to send mail to other people who are.
Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> In article <barmar-5A2D57....@news.eternal-september.org>,
He's not using AOL, he's trying to send mail to other people who are.
Message has been deleted
Bruce Esquibel
Jun 25, 2012, 7:12:24 AM6/25/12
to
Frank <gn...@windstream.net> wrote:
> X-Binding: ispmx_bounce
I dunno, there should of been earlier messages before this one. This is the
"I give up" message.
I'm going to guess the problem is with Windstream, searching that X-Binding
message leads to this:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1113117
It's not the same thing, but similar symptoms.
The problem with AOL is, for anyone to send like more than 20 messages a
day (like from an ISP), they need to sign up for this aol-email feedback
loop. You need to register the ip addresses of the mailers along with valid
contact information.
I'm going to guess Windstream isn't "in the loop" or don't have all of their
mailers registered.
What happens is, after so many messages sent to AOL, mail starts being
"Deferred", how long it is, I'm not sure but 6-24 hours is fairly common.
Under normal circumstances (i.e. sendmail), the default is to try every 15
minutes for 5 days.
If Windstream has this set to something lower (like every 15 minutes for 1
day), odds are the window for AOL to accept the mail is being missed.
The real solution is, "friends don't let friends use AOL".
You probably would be better off to get your AOL buddies to open a gmail
account and just email them there.
The other solution, maybe more practical, just don't use Windstream for your
smtp relay. If you open a gmail account you can then access their smtp
server (feel free to change your reply-to address) and use that instead.
If it's the same Windstream I'm thinking of, it's sort of a crappy outfit to
deal with, basically if one can't get a job at McDonalds or at a used car
dealership, they'll hire you.
Or if you have to deal with them, steer them to this:
http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php
I really doubt you are doing anything wrong though, it's your upstream.
-bruce
b...@ripco.com
> X-Binding: ispmx_bounce
I dunno, there should of been earlier messages before this one. This is the
"I give up" message.
I'm going to guess the problem is with Windstream, searching that X-Binding
message leads to this:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1113117
It's not the same thing, but similar symptoms.
The problem with AOL is, for anyone to send like more than 20 messages a
day (like from an ISP), they need to sign up for this aol-email feedback
loop. You need to register the ip addresses of the mailers along with valid
contact information.
I'm going to guess Windstream isn't "in the loop" or don't have all of their
mailers registered.
What happens is, after so many messages sent to AOL, mail starts being
"Deferred", how long it is, I'm not sure but 6-24 hours is fairly common.
Under normal circumstances (i.e. sendmail), the default is to try every 15
minutes for 5 days.
If Windstream has this set to something lower (like every 15 minutes for 1
day), odds are the window for AOL to accept the mail is being missed.
The real solution is, "friends don't let friends use AOL".
You probably would be better off to get your AOL buddies to open a gmail
account and just email them there.
The other solution, maybe more practical, just don't use Windstream for your
smtp relay. If you open a gmail account you can then access their smtp
server (feel free to change your reply-to address) and use that instead.
If it's the same Windstream I'm thinking of, it's sort of a crappy outfit to
deal with, basically if one can't get a job at McDonalds or at a used car
dealership, they'll hire you.
Or if you have to deal with them, steer them to this:
http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php
I really doubt you are doing anything wrong though, it's your upstream.
-bruce
b...@ripco.com
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