Unwanted Focus switches

[Alan Browne]

Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.

Irritating.

I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.

Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

--
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.

[J Burns]

On 6/19/14, 11:18 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>
> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>

It used to be that if I was focused on A and went to the dock to bring B
forward, if I quit B, the focus would revert to A.

I think it was after I went to 10.9.3 that for a few days, if I quit B,
the focus would go to Mail. Now it goes to Finder. I don't get it.

[Alan Browne]

I don't mean during user operations with the mouse (or perhaps kbd
commands) but right out of the blue while typing in a particular app.

[J Burns]

I saw your problem was different, but it brought mine to mind. Did
yours start recently? If it reverts to Finder and I have no Finder
window open, the focus will appear to be A, until I type or use a
keyboard command.

[nospam]

In article <L8ednfYEBIHKYj_O...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne

<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

it's a longstanding bug in os x.

i see it the most with itunes and safari.

sometimes the app that forces itself frontmost steals focus and other
times the hidden app retains it and you are flying blind.

i've even seen windows pop up during drag events, such as moving files
in finder and then something else blasts itself in front, and if you
let go of the icons you were dragging, you have no idea where they'll
end up.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.19, 11:51 , nospam wrote:
> In article <L8ednfYEBIHKYj_O...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
>> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
>> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
>> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
>> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>>
>> Irritating.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>>
>> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>
> it's a longstanding bug in os x.

Indeed?

>
> i see it the most with itunes and safari.
>
> sometimes the app that forces itself frontmost steals focus and other
> times the hidden app retains it and you are flying blind.

The app focus doesn't change - just the window I'm in is no longer the
focus window.

This seems to be more frequent over the last few months than ever before.

>
> i've even seen windows pop up during drag events, such as moving files
> in finder and then something else blasts itself in front, and if you
> let go of the icons you were dragging, you have no idea where they'll
> end up.

Something like that happened last week - all the files ended up on the
desktop but under another window so it wasn't clear where they went
until I spotlighted.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-19 11:18, Alan Browne wrote:
>
> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.

Happens often in iPhoto when I enter the "description" text. For some
reason, that app requires the mouse to REMAIN in the text field for it
to continue to receive keystroke events. I think what happens is that
after I have clicked into the field, I may be moving mouse away as my
hands switch to keyboard.

[nospam]

In article <TIqdnVYnbLI-kz7O...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne

<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> >> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> >> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> >> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> >> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
> >>
> >> Irritating.
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
> >>
> >> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
> >
> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>
> Indeed?

yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.

> > i see it the most with itunes and safari.
> >
> > sometimes the app that forces itself frontmost steals focus and other
> > times the hidden app retains it and you are flying blind.
>
> The app focus doesn't change - just the window I'm in is no longer the
> focus window.

it depends. there are two manifestations of it.

> This seems to be more frequent over the last few months than ever before.

you're now doing something that makes it more likely to happen.

some people rarely see it, if ever. others see it quite frequently.

> > i've even seen windows pop up during drag events, such as moving files
> > in finder and then something else blasts itself in front, and if you
> > let go of the icons you were dragging, you have no idea where they'll
> > end up.
>
> Something like that happened last week - all the files ended up on the
> desktop but under another window so it wasn't clear where they went
> until I spotlighted.

it's ludicrous how anyone can pretend this is a good thing, yet that's
what apple does.

"works as designed", they say, which is their standard cop-out answer.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <TIqdnVYnbLI-kz7O...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
><alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> >> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
>> >> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
>> >> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
>> >> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
>> >> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>> >>
>> >> Irritating.
>> >>
>> >> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>> >> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>> >
>> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>>
>> Indeed?
>
> yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.

Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
to be a feature).

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[nospam]

In article <c0gjrr...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> >> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> >> >> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> >> >> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> >> >> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> >> >> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
> >> >>
> >> >> Irritating.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
> >> >> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
> >> >
> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
> >>
> >> Indeed?
> >
> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
>
> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
> to be a feature).

i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.

i got their standard bullshit reply, 'works as designed.'

it is incomprehensible that someone would intentionally design it so
that another app could interrupt the user's work with the potential of
data loss.

i've had windows pop up in the middle of finder drags and even with
menus pulled down! usually it's just a window forcing itself forward,
sometimes stealing focus and sometimes not.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <c0gjrr...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> >> >> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
>> >> >> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
>> >> >> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
>> >> >> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
>> >> >> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Irritating.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>> >> >> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>> >> >
>> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>> >>
>> >> Indeed?
>> >
>> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
>>
>> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
>> to be a feature).
>
> i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
> look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.

I've noticed you have been saying this for years without backing it up,
which is why I am asking for evidence now.

The fact that you submitted a mysterious bug report does not mean there
is an actual bug in the OS. Do you have actual evidence of your
assertion that this is a long-standing bug in OS X?

> i got their standard bullshit reply, 'works as designed.'

The fact that they gave you the boilerplate "works as designed" response
does not necessarily mean that the behavior you described in the bug
report is "considered to be a feature". And without knowing more about
this supposed bug report, once legitimately can't claim otherwise.

You have so far given insufficient actual evidence of your assertion.

[Your Name]

In article <53a31364$0$10317$c3e8da3$9b4f...@news.astraweb.com>, JF

If it's Apple's Magic Mouse, then when moving the mouse you might be
accidently "clicking" again outside the text box.


This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.

[nospam]

In article <200620140928468708%Your...@YourISP.com>, Your Name

<Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
> when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
> in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
> and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
> back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
> open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.

bingo.

[nospam]

In article <c0glj7...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
> >> >>
> >> >> Indeed?
> >> >
> >> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
> >>
> >> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
> >> to be a feature).
> >
> > i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
> > look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.
>
> I've noticed you have been saying this for years without backing it up,
> which is why I am asking for evidence now.
>
> The fact that you submitted a mysterious bug report does not mean there
> is an actual bug in the OS. Do you have actual evidence of your
> assertion that this is a long-standing bug in OS X?

it is unexpected behaviour that in some cases, can result in data loss.

that's a bug.

> > i got their standard bullshit reply, 'works as designed.'
>
> The fact that they gave you the boilerplate "works as designed" response
> does not necessarily mean that the behavior you described in the bug
> report is "considered to be a feature". And without knowing more about
> this supposed bug report, once legitimately can't claim otherwise.

'works as designed' means it's considered to be a feature and will not
be fixed.

nobody designs something to have a bug.

> You have so far given insufficient actual evidence of your assertion.

incorrect.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <c0glj7...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> >> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Indeed?
>> >> >
>> >> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
>> >>
>> >> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
>> >> to be a feature).
>> >
>> > i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
>> > look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.
>>
>> I've noticed you have been saying this for years without backing it up,
>> which is why I am asking for evidence now.
>>
>> The fact that you submitted a mysterious bug report does not mean there
>> is an actual bug in the OS. Do you have actual evidence of your
>> assertion that this is a long-standing bug in OS X?
>
> it is unexpected behaviour that in some cases, can result in data loss.
>
> that's a bug.

So far you have given no evidence that this is actually a bug in OS X -
just your opinion.

>> > i got their standard bullshit reply, 'works as designed.'
>>
>> The fact that they gave you the boilerplate "works as designed" response
>> does not necessarily mean that the behavior you described in the bug
>> report is "considered to be a feature". And without knowing more about
>> this supposed bug report, once legitimately can't claim otherwise.
>
> 'works as designed' means it's considered to be a feature and will not
> be fixed.

Since you haven't shown us the bug report in question, then we only have
your word that this is considered to be a feature. You have given zero
evidence of this assertion.

> nobody designs something to have a bug.

You still have not proven your assertions that (a) this is actually a
bug, (b) it's a bug in OS X, or (c) that Apple considers this supposed
bug in OS X to be a feature.

>> You have so far given insufficient actual evidence of your assertion.
>
> incorrect.

It's perfectly clear for anyone reading this to see that you have
provided no evidence of your assertions. Saying it isn't so changes
nothing. Continuing to insist that you are right without giving a shred
of evidence to back up your claims is very typical behavior for you, and
is pretty lame.

[nospam]

In article <c0h695...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> >> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Indeed?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
> >> >>
> >> >> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
> >> >> to be a feature).
> >> >
> >> > i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
> >> > look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.
> >>
> >> I've noticed you have been saying this for years without backing it up,
> >> which is why I am asking for evidence now.
> >>
> >> The fact that you submitted a mysterious bug report does not mean there
> >> is an actual bug in the OS. Do you have actual evidence of your
> >> assertion that this is a long-standing bug in OS X?
> >
> > it is unexpected behaviour that in some cases, can result in data loss.
> >
> > that's a bug.
>
> So far you have given no evidence that this is actually a bug in OS X -
> just your opinion.

it's not opinion. it's the very definition of a bug:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug>
A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer
program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or
unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

any time a window forces itself forward obscuring what the user was
working on and potentially causing data loss fits that definition.

it's a bug.

[bi...@mix.com]

Your Name <Your...@yourisp.com> writes:

> This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
> when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
> in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
> and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
> back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
> open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.

This has nothing to do with the bug Alan Browne's reporting.
It's also the expected behaviour.

If that's not to your liking, launch whatever like this -

open -a -g whatever

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, John <M...@the.keyboard> wrote:

> Truthfully, if you know where to look [I do not nor do I care to find
> out] he has given sufficient information to track his claim down. Just
> go to the archives of bug reports for OS X and look for his name or
> some vague description of the issue.

A bug report is not evidence that (a) it's a bug, nor (b) that the bug
is in OS X, nor (c) that Apple considers it working as designed.

> It's far too much like work or I would do it, so I'll leave it to
> someone with more time, energy and determination to prove him a liar.

You have made an unfortunately common fallacy. The burden of proof is on
the person making the assertion. He made the assertion - not me.
Therefore it is *his* job to provide evidence backing his assertion. My
only responsibility in this matter is to ask for evidence proving his
assertion.

> It is of course always possible that nospam's description of the
> "bug" was badly misinterpreted by Apple and what they *thought* he was
> saying sounded to them like how the OS is supposed to work. Maybe if
> he tried again, with a better description, they could see it *as* a
> bug.

Yep.

> Some years ago, nospam could have been a newbie and may not have
> known the correct terminology to describe what he was seeing in a
> properly technically meaningful manner.
> In short, he could be right, and wrong.

Yep. And without any evidence, we will assume he is neither right or
wrong, and simply talking out of his ass.

[nospam]

In article <lnvspk$kva$1...@reader2.panix.com>, <bi...@MIX.COM> wrote:

> > This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
> > when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
> > in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
> > and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
> > back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
> > open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.
>
> This has nothing to do with the bug Alan Browne's reporting.

actually it's the exact same issue.

> It's also the expected behaviour.

no it is not.

if the user switches to another app, they expect to be using that app
without any interruption.

another app forcing itself forward is *not* expected.

> If that's not to your liking, launch whatever like this -
>
> open -a -g whatever

that doesn't actually fix anything because the interruption can still
occur and needing to resort to the command line to launch an app is a
failure anyway.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, John <M...@the.keyboard> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:51:40 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>In article <L8ednfYEBIHKYj_O...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
>><alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
>>> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
>>> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
>>> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
>>> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>>>
>>> Irritating.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>>>
>>> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>>
>>it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>>
>>i see it the most with itunes and safari.
>

> Which explains why it never seems to happen to me. I don't use them
> two. Ever.

Likewise, it also doesn't explain why some of us who use both iTunes and
Safari all day, every day don't see the problem.

> I've seen focus-stealing in Windows and Unix [and, despite the
> previous sentence, in Mac OSX] when a background process, like a very
> large copy or move, encounters a problem or ends. That sort of
> attention grabbing behaviour, though, would be expected. I don't think
> I've seen it happen without a reasonable and obvious cause.

It is proper and completely natural for applications to activate
themselves at certain times. For instance, when the user double-clicks
an application, it is expected that the application will launch and come
to the front. If I am viewing a web form in Safari and launch another
application, I expect the application to make itself active and
front-most, potentially interrupting my typing into the web form. And it
doesn't take an extraordinary imagination to think of potential race
conditions that might result in such an interruption. Regardless,
whether this constitutes an actual bug is up for serious debate.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-19, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <c0h695...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> >> >> >> > it's a longstanding bug in os x.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Indeed?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > yes indeed and apple considers it to be a feature.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Citation please (of both it being an Apple bug and Apple considering it
>> >> >> to be a feature).
>> >> >
>> >> > i reported it to apple nearly 15 years ago in 10.1. i am not going to
>> >> > look up the radar# and i wasn't the first to have reported it either.
>> >>
>> >> I've noticed you have been saying this for years without backing it up,
>> >> which is why I am asking for evidence now.
>> >>
>> >> The fact that you submitted a mysterious bug report does not mean there
>> >> is an actual bug in the OS. Do you have actual evidence of your
>> >> assertion that this is a long-standing bug in OS X?
>> >
>> > it is unexpected behaviour that in some cases, can result in data loss.
>> >
>> > that's a bug.
>>
>> So far you have given no evidence that this is actually a bug in OS X -
>> just your opinion.
>
> it's not opinion. it's the very definition of a bug:

Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "evidence".

[bi...@mix.com]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> writes, quoting
John <M...@the.keyboard>:

> > Truthfully, if you know where to look [I do not nor do I care to find
> > out] he has given sufficient information to track his claim down. Just
> > go to the archives of bug reports for OS X and look for his name or
> > some vague description of the issue.

Bug reports submitted to Apple are not available to any third party.

> A bug report is not evidence that (a) it's a bug, nor (b) that the bug
> is in OS X, nor (c) that Apple considers it working as designed.

Correct. Responses from Apple are also under NDAs.

[Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu]

Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:

> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

I see this sort of thing a few times every day while I'm using X11,
often when I'm not typing or touching anything. I don't recall ever
seeing this happen when I was using an app other than X11.

As you say, the RYG lights go off and if I'm typing at the time, an
error bong occurs for each key typed. X11 continues to be the app
listed in the Menubar, but no other X11 window gets its RYG lights
turned on. The cursor stays where it was (in my current X11 window).
No windows are raised or lowered.

If I wait about 6-8 seconds, the focus comes back, the RYG lights go
back on, and the cursor in the X11 window becomes solid again (instead
of an outline).

I can short circuit the 6-8 second wait by clicking in my window to
get the focus back immediately.

This is under Mavericks but was happening in at least Mountain Lion,
Snow Leopard and Leopard (and maybe before Leopard as well).

I mentioned it here years ago.

Martin

[Barry Margolin]

In article <myoaxoc...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>,
Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu

<nos...@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:

> Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:
>
> > Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> > address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> > the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> > menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> > I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
> >
> > Irritating.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
> >
> > Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>
> I see this sort of thing a few times every day while I'm using X11,
> often when I'm not typing or touching anything. I don't recall ever
> seeing this happen when I was using an app other than X11.

I was going to ask if any of the other people seeing this bug were using
X11. This is a longstanding bug in the XQuartz server:

http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/58

I don't use X11 much, but I occasinally use Wireshark and it's REALLY
ANNOYING when it does this.

--
Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

[nospam]

In article <c0hcba...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> So far you have given no evidence that this is actually a bug in OS X -
> >> just your opinion.
> >
> > it's not opinion. it's the very definition of a bug:
>
> Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "evidence".

apparently you just like to argue.

[nospam]

In article <c0hc9i...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> It is proper and completely natural for applications to activate
> themselves at certain times. For instance, when the user double-clicks
> an application, it is expected that the application will launch and come
> to the front.

the problem is not launching an app.

it's when you switch to a different app, when it is *not* expected that
the now backgrounded application will pull itself forward again,
interrupting what you were trying to do.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <190620142156071379%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

Why else would he post to Usenet?

[dorayme]

In article <barmar-A71C69....@news.eternal-september.org>,

Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article <190620142156071379%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In article <c0hcba...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
> > <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >> So far you have given no evidence that this is actually a bug in OS X -
> > > >> just your opinion.
> > > >
> > > > it's not opinion. it's the very definition of a bug:
> > >
> > > Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "evidence".
> >
> > apparently you just like to argue.
>
> Why else would he post to Usenet?

I dispute this.

--
dorayme

[JF Mezei]

There is a difference between focus and the topmost window.

If app1 is current in focus and you are typing away, it is possible for
app2 to come to foreground without focus changing.

In OS-X it appears that developpers have a choice on how to handle this.

For instance, when, after a reboot, I relauhch a bunch of apps, the
"screen sharing" app lets me cotinue to type my server's IP address even
though other apps come to foreground.

Yet, iPhoto stops allowing me to type in a text box when the mouse moves
out of the text box (but stays inside the window).

The flaw is that the operatimg system/GUI does not force a uniform
applicatio of focus rules and lets apps differ from each other. And this
is strange for Apple who has has GUI "bibles" since the Macintosh.

[Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu]

Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes:

> In article <myoaxoc...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>,
> Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu
> <nos...@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:
> >
> > > Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> > > address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> > > the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> > > menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> > > I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
> > >
> > > Irritating.
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
> > >
> > > Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
> >
> > I see this sort of thing a few times every day while I'm using X11,
> > often when I'm not typing or touching anything. I don't recall ever
> > seeing this happen when I was using an app other than X11.
>
> I was going to ask if any of the other people seeing this bug were using
> X11. This is a longstanding bug in the XQuartz server:
>
> http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/58

As I said, I've seen this problem for years.

Thanks for posting the above link, as that page contains a python
script that watches for program activations. With that I was able to
discover that Google Software Update has been at least one cause of
this problem for me.

I thought I had avoided Google Software Update long ago but clearly
not. Now it is uninstalled along with a couple of Google apps I never
use. We'll see if there are other causes of X11 losing focus briefly.
Many people report various programs causing the problem.

Martin

[Alan Browne]

If the user is entering data in a spreadsheet or word document, etc.
then nothing should interrupt that - even a pop up to warn of some issue
should not steal focus unless it's very serious (loss of data imminent,
for example).

--
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.

[Alan Browne]

Pretty much what I'm seeing (though I don't use X11 unless I've got
inkscape loaded (not often)). I've never had the focus return by itself
- OTOH maybe I'm too quick to mouse back for such to occur automatically.

[Jolly Roger]

If I am in Safari looking at a web form, and I launch another
application, I expect the application I launched to come to the front.
You would have that application launch in the background instead? Or not
launch at all? Like I said, it doesn't take an extraordinary imagination
to imagine race conditions that might result int he behavior described.
And it doesn't necessarily indicate an actual bug, or even necessarily a
design flaw - though that is certainly possible.

[Savageduck]

On 2014-06-19 15:18:44 +0000, Alan Browne

<alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> said:

>
> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the
> Chrome address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly
> out of the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app
> (on the menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error
> bings as I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to
> continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

I can't say that I have experienced the issue as you have described it.

I also recall that you use a touchpad, I don't. So I wonder if perhaps
your issue might somehow be touchpad related.

That said I use multiple Desktop spaces (4) for different apps. So I
have found I don't have the problem of unwanted windows (at the moment)
coming unacceptably to the front (or perhaps changing focus).
For example, I have a desktop space for photo editing apps (PS, LR,
etc.), another for browser (Chrome or Safari & Mail), a third desktop
for my usenet client, and a fourth for all other stuff. That way I
don't have a stack of unnecessarily or unrelated open windows on any
one desktop space.

< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_746.jpg >



--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Savageduck]

That sounds like an issue with Throth rather than the OS.
--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Jolly Roger]

that's rich, coming from you

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nos...@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting the above link, as that page contains a python
> script that watches for program activations. With that I was able to
> discover that Google Software Update has been at least one cause of
> this problem for me.

You mean it's not the result of "a longstanding bug in osx"? Imagine
that.

[bi...@mix.com]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> writes, quoting me:

> > open -a -g whatever

> and needing to resort to the command line to launch an app is a
> failure anyway.

So script it, copy the program's icon to it if that makes it easy to
find, stick it in the dock, or where ever, and you're done - problem
solved.

[nospam]

In article <2014062009272824152-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
> >> when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
> >> in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
> >> and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
> >> back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
> >> open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.
> >
> > bingo.
>
> That sounds like an issue with Throth rather than the OS.

nope, because it can happen to any app.

[nospam]

In article <lo1ps9$9st$1...@reader2.panix.com>, <bi...@MIX.COM> wrote:

> > > open -a -g whatever
>
> > and needing to resort to the command line to launch an app is a
> > failure anyway.
>
> So script it, copy the program's icon to it if that makes it easy to
> find, stick it in the dock, or where ever, and you're done - problem
> solved.

it doesn't solve a thing.

[nospam]

In article <c0j5q7...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> > Thanks for posting the above link, as that page contains a python
> > script that watches for program activations. With that I was able to
> > discover that Google Software Update has been at least one cause of
> > this problem for me.
>
> You mean it's not the result of "a longstanding bug in osx"? Imagine
> that.

google software update may exacerbate it, but the bug is in the os and
can affect *any* app.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-20 07:52, Alan Browne wrote:

> Pretty much what I'm seeing (though I don't use X11 unless I've got
> inkscape loaded (not often)). I've never had the focus return by itself
> - OTOH maybe I'm too quick to mouse back for such to occur automatically.

X11 has options with regards to treatment of focus. You can specify that
focus be on last place clicked (active window) or follows the mouse.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-20 12:26, Jolly Roger wrote:

> If I am in Safari looking at a web form, and I launch another
> application, I expect the application I launched to come to the front.

The act of launching another application, unless you programmed some hot
keys, would require focus be switched from Safari to the Dock, Finder or
some other UI widget that causes the other app to be launched.

If, after using the dock (for instance) to launch another app, you
return focus to Safari and start typing, a proper UI would keep Safari
in focus. (the proper logic would be that the recently launched app
would steal focus only from the app that launched it).

This is an area where Apple should have been a bit more forceful with
implementation. Suspect it was unfinished work when Next went to OS-X
and once established that way, Apple decided to keep the "indeterminate
behaviour" instead of fixing it.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

...still waiting for a shred of evidence supporting your assertion.

[nospam]

In article <c0jgmk...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger

<jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> >> > Thanks for posting the above link, as that page contains a python
> >> > script that watches for program activations. With that I was able to
> >> > discover that Google Software Update has been at least one cause of
> >> > this problem for me.
> >>
> >> You mean it's not the result of "a longstanding bug in osx"? Imagine
> >> that.
> >
> > google software update may exacerbate it, but the bug is in the os and
> > can affect *any* app.
>
> ...still waiting for a shred of evidence supporting your assertion.

already provided.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 14-06-20 12:26, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> If I am in Safari looking at a web form, and I launch another
>> application, I expect the application I launched to come to the front.
>
> The act of launching another application, unless you programmed some hot
> keys, would require focus be switched from Safari to the Dock, Finder or
> some other UI widget that causes the other app to be launched.

I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
use.

> If, after using the dock (for instance) to launch another app, you
> return focus to Safari and start typing, a proper UI would keep Safari
> in focus. (the proper logic would be that the recently launched app
> would steal focus only from the app that launched it).

If the application being launched takes longer to launch, and you switch
away during that time, chances are once it is finished launching, it
will be given focus and become the front-most application. Mac OS X has
always been this way, AFAIK. And while this is not the issue the OP
described, we can logically theorize that the same activation mechanism
could be in play there too.

> This is an area where Apple should have been a bit more forceful with
> implementation. Suspect it was unfinished work when Next went to OS-X
> and once established that way, Apple decided to keep the "indeterminate
> behaviour" instead of fixing it.

Interactions between applications and system processes can be complex
and hard to replicate, especially when race conditions are involved.
Fixing such issues often requires very meticulous definition of all of
the various factors that contribute to the end effect. It can take time.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

simply saying it doesn't make it true.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-20 16:01, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
> I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
> use.

The act of clicking on your lauchbar (or dock or whathever else) bringgs
focus to that application (aka launchbar).

Focus not necessarily equal to being the top most window. (but in many
cases, moving the dock to the top does not cause visual changes to the
display so you are unaware it has been brought to the foreground).

Focus : GUI events are fed to that application.

Foreground: window is not obscured by others.

While the two are generally associated with each other, they are not
necessarily equal.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 14-06-20 16:01, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>> I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
>> use.
>
> The act of clicking on your lauchbar (or dock or whathever else) bringgs
> focus to that application (aka launchbar).

I don't click anything. You haven't ever used LaunchBar, have you?

[irrelevant info about the difference between focus and activation
deleted]

[Barry Margolin]

In article <53a485dd$0$7241$c3e8da3$76a7...@news.astraweb.com>,

That's a feature of the X11 Window Manager. When you use XQuartz, you're
using the OS X Window Manager, not the X11 Window Manager.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <c0ji98...@mid.individual.net>,

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > On 14-06-20 12:26, Jolly Roger wrote:
> >
> >> If I am in Safari looking at a web form, and I launch another
> >> application, I expect the application I launched to come to the front.
> >
> > The act of launching another application, unless you programmed some hot
> > keys, would require focus be switched from Safari to the Dock, Finder or
> > some other UI widget that causes the other app to be launched.
>
> I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
> use.
>
> > If, after using the dock (for instance) to launch another app, you
> > return focus to Safari and start typing, a proper UI would keep Safari
> > in focus. (the proper logic would be that the recently launched app
> > would steal focus only from the app that launched it).
>
> If the application being launched takes longer to launch, and you switch
> away during that time, chances are once it is finished launching, it
> will be given focus and become the front-most application. Mac OS X has
> always been this way, AFAIK. And while this is not the issue the OP
> described, we can logically theorize that the same activation mechanism
> could be in play there too.

Maybe it depends on the specific application, but I haven't run into
that behavior. If I launch an application and switch my front-most
application while waiting for it to launch, the new application usually
opens behind the application I switched to.

[Barry Margolin]

In article <c0jjc9...@mid.individual.net>,

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > On 14-06-20 16:01, Jolly Roger wrote:
> >>
> >> I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
> >> use.
> >
> > The act of clicking on your lauchbar (or dock or whathever else) bringgs
> > focus to that application (aka launchbar).
>
> I don't click anything. You haven't ever used LaunchBar, have you?
>
> [irrelevant info about the difference between focus and activation
> deleted]

I think almost any method of launching an application is considered an
explicit request to make it the front-most application and give it focus
when it finishes launching, if you don't make any other switches of the
focused application while waiting for it.

[Joe Wolf Dee]

On 2014-06-19 15:18:44 +0000, Alan Browne said:

> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the
> Chrome address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly
> out of the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app
> (on the menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error
> bings as I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to
> continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

I've tried following this thread and a lot of it is beyond me, but I
wanted to answer your question, because, Yes, it started happening
maybe a month or two ago.

In my case (unlike some of the possibilities posited below in the
thread) it happens without me launching anything new or doing anything
that would cause it to happen: I'm typing, say, in an email (Mail.app)
and the focus jumps somewhere else. It's not just Mail.app, either.
Could be TextEdit or any app, it seems. I haven't hit a modifier key
either, or accidentally tapped the touchpad with the cursor outside the
active window.

One time I happened to notice the google drive icon in the menu bar had
just turned gray and then reverted to black when it happened: a
disconnect and reconnect, maybe, although I don't know why that
occurred. I thought that might be the culprit so I disabled google
drive for a while, but the jump still happened.

Anyway, FWIW, that's my story.
--
JoeWolfDee
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find�no common denominator,
but among those�whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.��--WH
Auden

[Jolly Roger]

It's all in the timing.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-20, Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article <c0jjc9...@mid.individual.net>,
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> > On 14-06-20 16:01, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I do use LaunchBar, which certainly does not need to be front-most to
>> >> use.
>> >
>> > The act of clicking on your lauchbar (or dock or whathever else) bringgs
>> > focus to that application (aka launchbar).
>>
>> I don't click anything. You haven't ever used LaunchBar, have you?
>>
>> [irrelevant info about the difference between focus and activation
>> deleted]
>
> I think almost any method of launching an application is considered an
> explicit request to make it the front-most application and give it focus
> when it finishes launching, if you don't make any other switches of the
> focused application while waiting for it.

The point I was making is that LaunchBar does not require one to launch
or otherwise activate LaunchBar in such a way that it comes to the front
just to make *use* of it. To launch an application, I typically type
Control-Space followed by one to three letters of the name of said
application. If I happen to be in the Finder when I type those commands,
I don't magically get switched to LaunchBar in the interim before
finally being switched to the application I want to launch. There are
many ways one can control how users interact with applications depending
on context. Nothing I have seen here yet is evidence that the behavior
being described is due to an actual bug, nor that it is a bug in Mac OS
X, nor that Apple has deemed this "bug" to be functioning as designed,
as stated by nospam.

[Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu]

I recommend grabbing the python script watch_activations.py mentioned
here (the script has nothing to do with X11, so anyone can use it):

http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/58

Run that script continuously in some terminal window. When the focus
changes, the script will show what caused the focus to change.

There can be many causes, such as Google Software Updater (in my case)
or Calendar, etc. Some you may not be able to do away with, but
perhaps some you can.

I've eliminated Google Software Updater and I haven't seen the focus
problem since (in 7-8 hours of Mac usage).

Martin

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-20 18:16, Jolly Roger wrote:

> The point I was making is that LaunchBar does not require one to launch
> or otherwise activate LaunchBar in such a way that it comes to the front
> just to make *use* of it. To launch an application, I typically type
> Control-Space followed by one to three letters of the name of said
> application.

This means that somewhere in the GUI system, Launchbar has registered a
keystroke that gets intercepted by the window manager instead of being
delivered to the app currently in focus. (same mechanism that intecpts
command-tab for instance)

Unless Launchbar is integrated into the Window manager, the later will
then switch focus to Launchbar which will get all subsequent events
(keystrokes, mouse movement/clicks inside its window etc).

At one point, Launchbar has to tell the window manager it is done with
intercepting keystrokes and loses focus.

[Jolly Roger]

Nope. That is not how it works.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2014-06-21, Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-21, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> On 14-06-20 18:16, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>>> The point I was making is that LaunchBar does not require one to launch
>>> or otherwise activate LaunchBar in such a way that it comes to the front
>>> just to make *use* of it. To launch an application, I typically type
>>> Control-Space followed by one to three letters of the name of said
>>> application.
>>
>> This means that somewhere in the GUI system, Launchbar has registered a
>> keystroke that gets intercepted by the window manager instead of being
>> delivered to the app currently in focus. (same mechanism that intecpts
>> command-tab for instance)
>>
>> Unless Launchbar is integrated into the Window manager, the later will
>> then switch focus to Launchbar which will get all subsequent events
>> (keystrokes, mouse movement/clicks inside its window etc).
>>
>> At one point, Launchbar has to tell the window manager it is done with
>> intercepting keystrokes and loses focus.
>
> Nope. That is not how it works.

Sorry; I was going too fast. Now that I re-read your reply I see you
aren't debating that LaunchBar does not activate. It does get focus long
enough for you to complete the command you started with the hot key, but
the previously active application remains front-most throughout that
process.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-19, John <M...@the.keyboard> wrote:
>
> I've seen focus-stealing in Windows and Unix [and, despite the
> previous sentence, in Mac OSX] when a background process, like a very
> large copy or move, encounters a problem or ends. That sort of
> attention grabbing behaviour, though, would be expected. I don't think
> I've seen it happen without a reasonable and obvious cause.

Some applications seem to be better behaved than others here. OS X gives
me problems in two main areas here:

1. I have Terminal set to start up during login, and I use its Window Group
feature to bring up several Terminal windows. My first action once those
windows appear is to perform a couple of ssh logins. Unfortunately other
startup items can and do seize focus and either part of an ssh command
or part of the subsequent password disappears into a black hole. Yes I
can wait until all apps have started before starting my ssh logins, but
that slows me down.

2. I use Hazel to perform actions on files arriving from other systems.
Hazel is currently set to open downloaded PDFs and give them focus. This
is fine for PDFs which come down quickly, but sometimes they take an age
and I am usually doing something else when they gain focus.

There is also the OS X behaviour where a background app bounces its Dock
icon when it requires attention. The App Store version of Numbers is a
culprit here. It takes long enough to fire up that I usually launch it
then do something else, and the bouncing Dock icon starts to annoy me
when it presents the template chooser. I really wish it didn't do that.

Amadeus Pro has a better approach here. When launched by double clicking
on a large sound file it quietly gets on with the job of opening and
reading the file (which can take a minute or more for large files) and
issues a notification once complete. At no point does it steal focus,
but it does let you know when its ready for work.

--
You can't look at a glass as half full or half empty if it's overflowing.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-19, bi...@MIX.COM <bi...@MIX.COM> wrote:

> Your Name <Your...@yourisp.com> writes:
>
>> This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
>> when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
>> in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
>> and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
>> back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
>> open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.
>

> This has nothing to do with the bug Alan Browne's reporting.
> It's also the expected behaviour.
>
> If that's not to your liking, launch whatever like this -
>
> open -a -g whatever

This one makes life _a lot_ easier.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-20, bi...@MIX.COM <bi...@MIX.COM> wrote:
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> writes, quoting me:
>
>> > open -a -g whatever
>
>> and needing to resort to the command line to launch an app is a
>> failure anyway.
>
> So script it, copy the program's icon to it if that makes it easy to
> find, stick it in the dock, or where ever, and you're done - problem
> solved.

And if you are writing a script you can send a message via Notification
Center from the command line. 2 seconds worth of searching brought me
the following from Stack Overflow:

Either install terminal-notifier (which is a Ruby gem) or use AppleScript:

<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11777962/command-line-utility-to-send-notifications-to-notification-center-in-mountain-li>

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-20, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-19 21:50:25 +0000, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> said:
>
>> In article <200620140928468708%Your...@YourISP.com>, Your Name

>> <Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This re-focusing isn't new though. I'm stil using Mac OS X 10.2 and
>>> when logging on to the Internet I usually click on Eudora and Firefox
>>> in the Dock. I might start typing an email, click on Thoth in the Dock
>>> and then go back to the email while Thoth loads. Despite having clicked
>>> back into the email window, Thoth (or whatever other application I
>>> open) will insist on keep throwing its windows up over the top.
>>

>> bingo.
>
> That sounds like an issue with Throth rather than the OS.

Agreed. As I just mentioned in another post, Amadeus Pro doesn't do that.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-20, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

It would only take a subtle bug in the "Focus follows mouse" code to
activate it when it's supposed to be switched off. Perhaps that's the area
to look at to resolve this bug?

[Paul Sture]

How many folks experiencing this problem are running Google software?

Just a thought...

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-21, Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nos...@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
> I recommend grabbing the python script watch_activations.py mentioned
> here (the script has nothing to do with X11, so anyone can use it):
>
> http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/58
>
> Run that script continuously in some terminal window. When the focus
> changes, the script will show what caused the focus to change.

Having wasted a bit of time locating it, the attachment is to be found at
the top of the thread, in the "Attachments" section.

> There can be many causes, such as Google Software Updater (in my case)
> or Calendar, etc. Some you may not be able to do away with, but
> perhaps some you can.
>
> I've eliminated Google Software Updater and I haven't seen the focus
> problem since (in 7-8 hours of Mac usage).

I recall Google Software Updater misbehaviour from several years ago
(something to do with an early release of Google Video, before they bought
Youtube IIRC. It or some associated software would keep files open on
an external disk and prevent it from dismounting, which caused a lot of
cussing at the time).

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.20, 05:29 , Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu wrote:
> Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>
>> In article <myoaxoc...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>,

>> Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu
>> <nos...@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>

>>> Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
>>>> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
>>>> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
>>>> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
>>>> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>>>>
>>>> Irritating.
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>>>>
>>>> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>>>

>>> I see this sort of thing a few times every day while I'm using X11,
>>> often when I'm not typing or touching anything. I don't recall ever
>>> seeing this happen when I was using an app other than X11.
>>

>> I was going to ask if any of the other people seeing this bug were using
>> X11. This is a longstanding bug in the XQuartz server:
>>
>> http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/58
>
> As I said, I've seen this problem for years.

>
> Thanks for posting the above link, as that page contains a python
> script that watches for program activations. With that I was able to
> discover that Google Software Update has been at least one cause of
> this problem for me.
>

> I thought I had avoided Google Software Update long ago but clearly
> not. Now it is uninstalled along with a couple of Google apps I never
> use. We'll see if there are other causes of X11 losing focus briefly.
> Many people report various programs causing the problem.
>
> Martin
>


Running - thanks. We'll see if that helps.



--
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.20, 12:26 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-20, Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.19, 20:07 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>> It is proper and completely natural for applications to activate
>>> themselves at certain times. For instance, when the user double-clicks
>>> an application, it is expected that the application will launch and come
>>> to the front. If I am viewing a web form in Safari and launch another
>>> application, I expect the application to make itself active and
>>> front-most, potentially interrupting my typing into the web form. And it
>>> doesn't take an extraordinary imagination to think of potential race
>>> conditions that might result in such an interruption. Regardless,
>>> whether this constitutes an actual bug is up for serious debate.
>>
>> If the user is entering data in a spreadsheet or word document, etc.
>> then nothing should interrupt that - even a pop up to warn of some issue
>> should not steal focus unless it's very serious (loss of data imminent,
>> for example).

>
> If I am in Safari looking at a web form, and I launch another
> application, I expect the application I launched to come to the front.

> You would have that application launch in the background instead? Or not
> launch at all? Like I said, it doesn't take an extraordinary imagination
> to imagine race conditions that might result int he behavior described.
> And it doesn't necessarily indicate an actual bug, or even necessarily a
> design flaw - though that is certainly possible.


All I'm doing is merrily writing The Great Canadian Novel in Word, or
typing a reply in thunderbird or data in Numbers or Excel.

Suddenly, unbidden ...

1. The window RYG lights go grey.
2. The 'bonging' sounds reply to each key (dude: that data goin' nowhere)
3. The app I'm in remains the foreground (menu bar) app.

I did not launch anything. I was just typing away ...

It's very plausible that something else has launched - but why does my
app remain the FG app (named in menu bar)?


But on the launch subject, it would indeed by my preference that, esp.
large programs like Photoshop, do their launch quietly until ready and
remain in the background while I do other things. For example I may be
working in Bridge organizing a photo import - so I launch PS so that it
is ready when I'm ready - but in the meantime I'd like to continue in
Bridge.

This is an issue with Windows as well as OS X and Linux.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.20, 15:05 , JF Mezei wrote:
> On 14-06-20 07:52, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> Pretty much what I'm seeing (though I don't use X11 unless I've got
>> inkscape loaded (not often)). I've never had the focus return by itself
>> - OTOH maybe I'm too quick to mouse back for such to occur automatically.
>
>
> X11 has options with regards to treatment of focus. You can specify that
> focus be on last place clicked (active window) or follows the mouse.

I don't give a crap about X11 - the focus switches occur in a variety of
apps when I'm not using X11 at all. (And did not occur during a 1 hour
or so inkscape session yesterday...)

[Alan Browne]

I have seen Google Drive mentioned in the context of Spaces switching
from a space to another space. I am running GDrive and also the script
that Martin provided. Maybe I'll trap what's going on....

[bi...@mix.com]

Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> writes:

> Suddenly, unbidden ...
>
> 1. The window RYG lights go grey.
> 2. The 'bonging' sounds reply to each key (dude: that data goin' nowhere)
> 3. The app I'm in remains the foreground (menu bar) app.
>
> I did not launch anything. I was just typing away ...
>
> It's very plausible that something else has launched - but why does my
> app remain the FG app (named in menu bar)?

Here are, for example, some programs that cause this to happen, just as
you've described -

Bartender
UTC Global Clock
MoonMenu

I'm sure there's a name for this function, but I don't know what it is.

Maybe the output of 'ps -ax' would produce a clue.

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number

[bi...@mix.com]

> Maybe the output of 'ps -ax' would produce a clue.

Got interrupted and missed saying that my three examples
are run at startup, so it's not likely the Python script
is going to catch one when it grabs input focus.

[JF Mezei]

On 14-06-21 02:30, Paul Sture wrote:

> Agreed. As I just mentioned in another post, Amadeus Pro doesn't do that.

I think this is the crux of the problem. It appears that focus switchng
is not uniformly enforced by the OS, it is something left up to
applications which results in "unpredictable" behaviour depending on
what apps you use.


There are some advantage to letting each app decide how to handle focus.
But there are perhaps more disadvantages due to non-uniform behaviour.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-21, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <l7lf7b-...@news.chingola.ch>

> Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-19, John <M...@the.keyboard> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've seen focus-stealing in Windows and Unix [and, despite the
>>> previous sentence, in Mac OSX] when a background process, like a very
>>> large copy or move, encounters a problem or ends. That sort of
>>> attention grabbing behaviour, though, would be expected. I don't think
>>> I've seen it happen without a reasonable and obvious cause.
>
>> Some applications seem to be better behaved than others here. OS X gives
>> me problems in two main areas here:
>
>> 1. I have Terminal set to start up during login, and I use its Window Group
>> feature to bring up several Terminal windows. My first action once those
>> windows appear is to perform a couple of ssh logins. Unfortunately other
>> startup items can and do seize focus and either part of an ssh command
>> or part of the subsequent password disappears into a black hole. Yes I
>> can wait until all apps have started before starting my ssh logins, but
>> that slows me down.
>

> You can also set those windows to execute the ssh commands you want
> without typing them.

Thanks. I'll look into that.

>> 2. I use Hazel to perform actions on files arriving from other systems.
>> Hazel is currently set to open downloaded PDFs and give them focus. This
>> is fine for PDFs which come down quickly, but sometimes they take an age
>> and I am usually doing something else when they gain focus.
>

> So, sometimes the behavior you want is the behavior you don't want?

Yep. :-)

>> There is also the OS X behaviour where a background app bounces its Dock
>> icon when it requires attention. The App Store version of Numbers is a
>> culprit here. It takes long enough to fire up that I usually launch it
>> then do something else, and the bouncing Dock icon starts to annoy me
>> when it presents the template chooser. I really wish it didn't do that.
>

> Turn off the template chooser.

Done. I wouldn't mind it coming up if it didn't nag by bouncing in
the Dock...

> These all sound self-inflicted to me.

It's one of those cases where the act of formulating the problem(s) in
words was sufficient to make me realise what needs to be done. Sending
notifications from the command line for the files arriving from other
systems is a solution which looks good.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.20, 12:27 , Savageduck wrote:
> On 2014-06-19 15:18:44 +0000, Alan Browne

> <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> said:
>
>>
>> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the
>> Chrome address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly
>> out of the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app
>> (on the menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error
>> bings as I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to
>> continue.
>>
>> Irritating.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>>
>> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?
>

> I can't say that I have experienced the issue as you have described it.
>
> I also recall that you use a touchpad, I don't. So I wonder if perhaps
> your issue might somehow be touchpad related.

It could be, OTOH, the foreground app remains the one I'm in - just it's
window is no longer the focus. It wasn't like this before either - I've
had the trackpad for a couple years.

>
> That said I use multiple Desktop spaces (4) for different apps. So I
> have found I don't have the problem of unwanted windows (at the moment)
> coming unacceptably to the front (or perhaps changing focus).

Again, the app I'm in remains FG - just the window I'm in is not the
focus - nothing seems to be the focus.


> For example, I have a desktop space for photo editing apps (PS, LR,
> etc.), another for browser (Chrome or Safari & Mail), a third desktop
> for my usenet client, and a fourth for all other stuff. That way I don't
> have a stack of unnecessarily or unrelated open windows on any one
> desktop space.
>
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_746.jpg >

[bi...@mix.com]

Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> writes:

> Again, the app I'm in remains FG - just the window I'm in is not the
> focus - nothing seems to be the focus.

Have you looked underneath it when this happens? If you hover the
mouse cursor over the red-yellow-green buttons (upper left corner)
do they illuminate? If you click the yellow button to minimize the
window, that should happen without bringing the input focus back
to it. Perhaps you'll see something then. Maybe.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.22, 12:20 , bi...@MIX.COM wrote:
> Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> writes:
>
>> Again, the app I'm in remains FG - just the window I'm in is not the
>> focus - nothing seems to be the focus.
>
> Have you looked underneath it when this happens? If you hover the
> mouse cursor over the red-yellow-green buttons (upper left corner)
> do they illuminate? If you click the yellow button to minimize the
> window, that should happen without bringing the input focus back
> to it. Perhaps you'll see something then. Maybe.
>
> Billy Y..

I'll keep that in mind. Naturally, since I posted the issue here it
hasn't happened at all. Maybe running the pythin script that Martin
proposed scares the system into good behaviour...

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.22, 16:24 , Lewis wrote:
> In message <b7KdnVHn1ONqdDvO...@giganews.com>

> Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> Again, the app I'm in remains FG - just the window I'm in is not the
>> focus - nothing seems to be the focus.
>

> Have you told us if you are running Google Drive or have Google Chrome
> installed? Or any Google software?

Yep. Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).

Chrome of course.

Google Earth (but not running when this occurs).

Picasa's agent is another possible culprit.

Of course since I've posted this issue and run the script that Martin
proposed it hasn't happened at all ...

[Joe Wolf Dee]

On 2014-06-22 21:24:16 +0000, Alan Browne said:

...

> Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).
>
> Chrome of course.
>
> Google Earth (but not running when this occurs).
>
> Picasa's agent is another possible culprit.
>
> Of course since I've posted this issue and run the script that Martin
> proposed it hasn't happened at all ...

Your post caused me to search for that script, to give it a try.

Just as I was about to download it, I once again noticed the Google
Drive icon go gray - focus got lost somewhere - and then the GD icon
(nice name for it) went black again.

This time I'm disabling Google Drive for good -- I seldom use it -- and
will see if the lost-focus problem stops.

--
JoeWolfDee
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find�no common denominator,
but among those�whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.��--WH
Auden

[Joe Wolf Dee]

On 2014-06-23 12:00:07 +0000, Joe Wolf Dee said:

> On 2014-06-22 21:24:16 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>
> ...
>
>> Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).
>>
>> Chrome of course.
>>
>> Google Earth (but not running when this occurs).
>>
>> Picasa's agent is another possible culprit.
>>
>> Of course since I've posted this issue and run the script that Martin
>> proposed it hasn't happened at all ...
>
> Your post caused me to search for that script, to give it a try.
>
> Just as I was about to download it, I once again noticed the Google
> Drive icon go gray - focus got lost somewhere - and then the GD icon
> (nice name for it) went black again.
>
> This time I'm disabling Google Drive for good -- I seldom use it -- and
> will see if the lost-focus problem stops.

Following up on my own post.

I quit Google Drive just then, then restarted it because I wanted to
uncheck the "Start GD when computer starts" option (which is probably
what caused it to start up again) and as soon as it started, the focus
went bye-bye.

It's off for good now.

BTW, that script produced a bunch of errors for me.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.22, 19:15 , Lewis wrote:
> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> was all, like:
> --> Sun, 22 Jun 2014 17:24:16 -0400 <5vydnRmdZJ8d1DrO...@giganews.com>

>> On 2014.06.22, 16:24 , Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <b7KdnVHn1ONqdDvO...@giganews.com>
>>> Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> Again, the app I'm in remains FG - just the window I'm in is not the
>>>> focus - nothing seems to be the focus.
>>>
>>> Have you told us if you are running Google Drive or have Google Chrome
>>> installed? Or any Google software?
>
>> Yep. Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).
>
>> Chrome of course.
>

> The Google updater service is known to steal focus.

I'll look at the logs next time there's a steal.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.23, 08:00 , Joe Wolf Dee wrote:
> On 2014-06-22 21:24:16 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>
> ...
>
>> Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).
>>
>> Chrome of course.
>>
>> Google Earth (but not running when this occurs).
>>
>> Picasa's agent is another possible culprit.
>>
>> Of course since I've posted this issue and run the script that Martin
>> proposed it hasn't happened at all ...
>
> Your post caused me to search for that script, to give it a try.
>
> Just as I was about to download it, I once again noticed the Google
> Drive icon go gray - focus got lost somewhere - and then the GD icon
> (nice name for it) went black again.
>
> This time I'm disabling Google Drive for good -- I seldom use it -- and
> will see if the lost-focus problem stops.

I'll watch for the GD changing state. It's hard black right now.

I don't use it much - prefer Dropbox.

A thing I really hate about Google Drive is you can't paste a password
(mine are stored in 1Password and are long and random (like:
QMjPMP6eTi5FdX46FEiyl5POA )) so a PITA to type in manually.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.23, 08:09 , Joe Wolf Dee wrote:
> On 2014-06-23 12:00:07 +0000, Joe Wolf Dee said:
>
>> On 2014-06-22 21:24:16 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Google Drive (which has been linked to something like this).
>>>
>>> Chrome of course.
>>>
>>> Google Earth (but not running when this occurs).
>>>
>>> Picasa's agent is another possible culprit.
>>>
>>> Of course since I've posted this issue and run the script that Martin
>>> proposed it hasn't happened at all ...
>>
>> Your post caused me to search for that script, to give it a try.
>>
>> Just as I was about to download it, I once again noticed the Google
>> Drive icon go gray - focus got lost somewhere - and then the GD icon
>> (nice name for it) went black again.
>>
>> This time I'm disabling Google Drive for good -- I seldom use it --
>> and will see if the lost-focus problem stops.
>
> Following up on my own post.
>
> I quit Google Drive just then, then restarted it because I wanted to
> uncheck the "Start GD when computer starts" option (which is probably
> what caused it to start up again) and as soon as it started, the focus
> went bye-bye.
>
> It's off for good now.
>
> BTW, that script produced a bunch of errors for me.

Works fine here. Just now that I'm really looking for focus steals it
doesn't seem to be happening.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.23, 10:41 , Lewis wrote:
> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> was all, like:

> --> Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:42:24 -0400 <ZvudnfRzPLQsvTXO...@giganews.com>

> Can't paste a password where?

The Google Drive login.

[Paul Sture]

On 2014-06-23, Joe Wolf Dee <joe...@email.com> wrote:
>
> BTW, that script produced a bunch of errors for me.

Did you set the executable bit before running it?

e.g.

chmod +x watch_activations.py
./watch_activations.py

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.24, 08:06 , Lewis wrote:
> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> was all, like:

> --> Tue, 24 Jun 2014 07:46:16 -0400 <n76dndKoxbeV-DTO...@giganews.com>

> Sure you can. rclick -> paste.

Did not work (about 2 months ago). Went through it twice over a couple
weeks.

(And yes I can paste PW's in many other apps/sites and do so often).

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.24, 23:16 , Lewis wrote:
> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Alan Browne <alan....@FreelunchVideotron.ca> was all, like:

> --> Tue, 24 Jun 2014 18:40:43 -0400 <C_6dnb0KErH2YzTO...@giganews.com>

> I think you're wrong. I've been using Google Drive for quite a lot
> longer than 2 months.

I've been using it since it came out. No need to enter the password
except on installing it. I re-installed it a couple times several a few
months ago (for reasons I don't recall) and one could not paste a PW
into it.

>
>> (And yes I can paste PW's in many other apps/sites and do so often).
>

> You cannot ⌘-V paste in many dialogs. I've yet to find one that you
> cannot rclick -> paste into.

Re-install Google Drive and tell me how that works out.

[Alan Browne]

On 2014.06.19, 11:18 , Alan Browne wrote:
>
> Occasionally I'm typing away (say here or in Excel or Word or the Chrome
> address/searchbar or whatever) and the focus switches suddenly out of
> the window that I'm in. The app I'm in remains the front app (on the
> menu bar) but the RYG 'lights' go off and then there are error bings as
> I continue typing. Have to mouse back into where I was to continue.
>
> Irritating.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'm not causing it by hitting a modifier key.
>
> Does this happen to anyone else? Any causes known?

Finally trapped the offender using the script that Martin supplied.

1. yesterday from Thunderbird: Google Drive

2. yesterday from QuickTime: Google Drive.

Since I don't use GD much I'm kicking it out.

[Joe Wolf Dee]

That confirms my suspicion as well. After disabling it and not letting
it reinitialize after a restart (which is apparently what happened
before) I've had no problems with lost focus. Bye, GD Google Drive.

[Jolly Roger]

That can't be right: nospam said this is a longstanding bug in OS X; and
we all know he is never wrong about anything.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR