Dual Drive Firewire 800 Drive Doc for Mac?

[W]

Does any vendor make a dual drive dock for Firewire 800? I'm looking for
the simple vertical mount enclosures that do not require any hotswap tray
for the SATA drive.

I currently have a Voyager Firewire 800 but it only supports one drive. I
have a number of dual drive bays that use eSATA for output, but
unfortunately that is not an option for my Mac Mini.

--
W

[Tom Stiller]

In article <s9udneWAtuoqYibN...@giganews.com>,

I'm not sure what you mean but my Elite from OWC has two FireWire800
ports.

--
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

[W]

"Tom Stiller" <tom_s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tom_stiller-E577...@news.individual.net...

> In article <s9udneWAtuoqYibN...@giganews.com>,
> "W" <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:
>
> > Does any vendor make a dual drive dock for Firewire 800? I'm looking
for
> > the simple vertical mount enclosures that do not require any hotswap
tray
> > for the SATA drive.
> >
> > I currently have a Voyager Firewire 800 but it only supports one drive.
I
> > have a number of dual drive bays that use eSATA for output, but
> > unfortunately that is not an option for my Mac Mini.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean but my Elite from OWC has two FireWire800
> ports.

Here is a photo of a drive dock that takes two hard drives mounted
vertically:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-eSATA-Drive-Docking-Station/dp/B001IOPIRM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1354506185&sr=8-3&keywords=drive+dock+dual

The one above is used with eSATA or USB and I want one for Mac that is wired
for Firewire 800.

And the reason your unit has two ports is so that you can daisy chain
additional Firewire 800 devices. Again, I am trying to get all of that
built into a single enclosure.

--
W

[W]

"Michael Vilain" <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote in message
news:vilain-626F03....@news.individual.net...

> In article <s9udneWAtuoqYibN...@giganews.com>,
> "W" <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:
>

> I think the Voyager is all that's out there. I think the business model
> for this sort of enclosure is "I have a disk I want to temporarily add
> to my system, then remove" Frankly, I don't see any value of having two
> disks in the same enclosure. Wouldn't it make the circuitry detect and
> manage data traffic between the two more complex. An eSATA and FW800
> disk in the same enclosure would have to send data on the same wire if
> both are being accessed.
>
> You'll probably have to buy another Voyager. It's only about $80.

The first problem with your suggestion is that the Internet is loaded with
people saying that the Voyager has problems chaining Firewire 800 to other
devices. Apparently if the device upstream from the Voyager powers off, it
has problems getting a wakeup and does not power on. Other users say it
never works in the first place, probably another manifestation of not
getting a power on signal.

The second issue is just saving space and clutter. I barely have room for
one enclosure.

Some applications for a dual drive enclosure:

1) Making additional backups to drives that you physically remove and then
take offsite, put in a safe, whatever method you choose to protect against
fire, theft, whatever.

2) When you are rebuilding a drive, it is always less dangerous to insert a
new drive and attempt to build it the way you want it and test it in place.
That way you can leave the original drive intact and not take any
unnecessary risks with it.

--
W

[W]

"Michael Vilain" <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote in message

news:vilain-FD617C....@news.individual.net...
> In article <P6OdnWumSsZCvSHN...@giganews.com>,

> Looks like you found your dual drive dock. Isn't that what you were
> looking for? Or was it something else?

I need a dual drive dock WITH A FIREWIRE 800 INTERFACE.

The one I am referencing above is eSATA not Firewire 800. I am showing a
photo of a unit because someone questioned why a dual drive unit would ever
be needed. Dual drive units are very popular in the Windows world, for
reasons I cited.

--
W

[bi...@mix.com]

W <persis...@spamarrest.com> writes:

> The first problem with your suggestion is that the Internet is loaded with
> people saying that the Voyager has problems chaining Firewire 800 to other
> devices.

When chaining FW devices, nothing downstream can run faster than what's
in front of it. Some devices have, for example, FW400 ports (connectors),
but will only run at FW200. So, you'd want to put the slower stuff at the
end of the chain.

Then, hot plugging anything in or out will cause a complete bus reset, so
you only want to do that when everything is quiescent.

If something upstream powers down, well, that pretty well screws whatever
is downstream - particularly mounted filesystems. A hub would be a good
way to deal with this. But it will not stop the complete bus reset when
anything is added to or removed from the bus.

> The second issue is just saving space and clutter. I barely have room
> for one enclosure.

How about this -

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/EliteALmini/RAID/eSATA_FW800_FW400_USB

Or, this single disk enclosure is quite small - I own many, and am 100%
happy with them -

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/on-the-go

Two of these are slightly larger than one of the dual enclosures, above,
but not by very much (few mm). But, they can be stacked one on top of
the other, saving some desk space. They also come with decent carrying
cases, if you're going to transport them off site.

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number

[W]

<bi...@MIX.COM> wrote in message news:k9hh7h$beu$1...@reader1.panix.com...

I was looking for something that did not require inserting a drive into an
enclosure. The point is that I will be inserting and removing many drives
and putting them into storage.

--
W

[W]

"W" <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote in message
news:26adnWTEtf7NzCHN...@giganews.com...

To clarify: I'm just trying to save some time on the whole process of
inserting and removing a drive. I'm tired of using screwdrivers to open
cases, secure drives to trays or internal compartments, etc.

--
W

[Paul Sture]

In article <P6OdnWumSsZCvSHN...@giganews.com>,
"W" <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:

How about a Firewire to eSATA converter?

<http://firmtek.stores.yahoo.net/spyderhub.html>

Seems pricy at $129.95 but this one looks like proper kit rather than a
"good enough" device and claims to provide Mac boot capability to
external eSATA enclosures.

--
Paul Sture

Q: pleasecanyoufixmyspacebar?
A: myspaceisdeadyouneedtotryfacebook

[-hh]

On Dec 3, 2:26 am, "W" <persistent...@spamarrest.com> wrote:
> "W" <persistent...@spamarrest.com> wrote in message

>
> news:26adnWTEtf7NzCHN...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > <bi...@MIX.COM> wrote in messagenews:k9hh7h$beu$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> > > W <persistent...@spamarrest.com> writes:
>
> > > > The first problem with your suggestion is that the Internet is loaded
> > with
> > > > people saying that the Voyager has problems chaining Firewire 800 to
> > other
> > > > devices.
>
> > > When chaining FW devices, nothing downstream can run faster than what's
> > > in front of it.  Some devices have, for example, FW400 ports
> (connectors),
> > > but will only run at FW200.  So, you'd want to put the slower stuff at
> the
> > > end of the chain.
>
> > > Then, hot plugging anything in or out will cause a complete bus reset,
> so
> > > you only want to do that when everything is quiescent.
>
> > > If something upstream powers down, well, that pretty well screws
> whatever
> > > is downstream - particularly mounted filesystems.  A hub would be a good
> > > way to deal with this.  But it will not stop the complete bus reset when
> > > anything is added to or removed from the bus.
>
> > > > The second issue is just saving space and clutter.  I barely have room
> > > > for one enclosure.
>
> > > How about this -
>

> http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/EliteALmini/RAID/eSATA_FW800_...

>
>
>
> > > Or, this single disk enclosure is quite small - I own many, and am 100%
> > > happy with them -
>
> > >http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/on-the-go
>
> > > Two of these are slightly larger than one of the dual enclosures, above,
> > > but not by very much (few mm).  But, they can be stacked one on top of
> > > the other, saving some desk space.  They also come with decent carrying
> > > cases, if you're going to transport them off site.
>
> > I was looking for something that did not require inserting a drive into an
> > enclosure.   The point is that I will be inserting and removing many
> drives
> > and putting them into storage.
>
> To clarify: I'm just trying to save some time on the whole process of
> inserting and removing a drive.   I'm tired of using screwdrivers to open
> cases, secure drives to trays or internal compartments, etc.

Is there anything particularly wrong with simply getting two "single"
Voyager Q's? They have dual FW800's and one can find/buy very short
(a few inches) FW800 cables. Sure, they'll take up a bit more space
than a 'double' would, but that's about it.


-hh

[W]

"-hh" <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:b2b5d537-c37f-4ed9...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

<Is there anything particularly wrong with simply getting two "single"
<Voyager Q's? They have dual FW800's and one can find/buy very short
<(a few inches) FW800 cables. Sure, they'll take up a bit more space
<than a 'double' would, but that's about it.

The Amazon feedback pages for Voyager's products claim that this doesn't
work. Supposedly the upstream hard drive either never powers on, or for
other users powers on but can never recover from a power saving event that
shuts the drive down temporarily.

--
W

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Yea, OWC Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad - FW400/800, USB2.0HS/1.1 + eSATA

<http://eshop.macsales.com/search/fw800+enclosure>

2-bay version
<http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MEPQ946QL2/>

Is also available in a 4-bay version.

I have two of these myself and they are really fast. Supports up to 4tb
disks per bay.

Cheers, Erik Richard


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac-m...@Mstofanet.dk>
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

W wrote:
> I need a dual drive dock WITH A FIREWIRE 800 INTERFACE.
>
> The one I am referencing above is eSATA not Firewire 800. I am showing a
> photo of a unit because someone questioned why a dual drive unit would ever
> be needed. Dual drive units are very popular in the Windows world, for
> reasons I cited.

As I've just answered you should go for a dual bay drive enclosure
instead. The AL Pros from OWC all have 'daisy-chain' capability so you
can just add more FW units in a chain.

I have a 2-bay docking (NorthQ) but as you mention - it is only with USB
and eSATA and since I have no eSATA PCIe card for my MacPro, the USB is
slow like h.... towards the FW800 RAID system. The only thing I until
now have used this dock for is to make one exact copy of a 250gb disk
onto a 500gb disk. It can do this as stand-alone so I don't need to take
any care since time doesn't matter here.:-)

I've now seached a bit and maybe found what you'¨re looking for from
IcyDock...

"MB662USEB-2S-1 Dual bay 1394b, eSATA - Icy Dock"
<http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=137>

The IcyDock is more user-friendly when inserting / removing disks. -
Else it's much like the AL Pro enclosures...

Search results
<http://www.google.dk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=dual-bay+dock+with+fw800&oq=dual-bay+dock+with+fw800&gs_l=hp.3...4908.27364.0.28024.26.25.1.0.0.0.98.1501.25.25.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1._U-qUNnrUz4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=c15a81358fbcecf2&bpcl=39580677&biw=1095&bih=701>

[W]

Sorry for top posting, but my newsreader is not handling your post
correctly.

That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect through
Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.

Thanks for the suggestion.

--
W


"Erik Richard Sørensen" <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote in message
news:50be881b$0$287$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...

[nospam]

In article <94WdnXcoKeSlISPN...@giganews.com>,

<persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:

> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect through
> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.

don't forget that firewire can be daisy chained. be sure to put the
slower drives (fw400) at the end of the chain.

[Bread]

On 2012-12-05 03:15:03 +0000, W said:

>
> "MB662USEB-2S-1 Dual bay 1394b, eSATA - Icy Dock"
> <http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=137>

> Sorry for top posting, but my newsreader is not handling your post
> correctly.
>
> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
> drive.

That would be really really weird.

There is a single interface and a chipset which controls it and both drives.

Even when you plug in two independent drives (JBOD) it would just be
bizarre to need to use two separate FW wires. The pair of FW ports on
the back is for daisy-chaining. I suppose it might be possible, on
some other hardware, for a pair of ports to map separately to a pair of
drives, but I've never seen such a thing.

And of course, it wouldn't make any sense for the other three potential
configurations of this machine (RAID1, RAID0, or BIG) -- all three of
the other configurations present only a single drive to the computer
connected to the device.

> On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect through
> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.

Again, you're going to just run one FW cable from this chassis to your mini.

Note that even in JBOD mode, you cannot "hot swap" drives. If you want
to pull one of the two drives, you need to unmount *both* drives and
power the machine off. See the notes.

>
> The IcyDock is more user-friendly when inserting / removing disks. -
> Else it's much like the AL Pro enclosures...

Looks like a nice piece of hardware. I had a dual-drive AL Pro
enclosure from OWC that I liked a lot, but it was a real pain to swap
drives on it - I rarely needed to, but this looks a hell of a lot nicer
to deal with. Nevertheless, this thing is not really meant for popping
drives in and out of, either, not like the NewerTech Voyager or
equivalent, which is what I thought the OP was looking for. (I have a
USB/eSata Voyager which I use every once in a while to clone a drive,
but not for everyday use. It works just fine, though I've heard some
bad things about the FW version of it.)

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

W wrote:
> Sorry for top posting, but my newsreader is not handling your post
> correctly.
>
> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect through
> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.

No, the 2 FW800 ports just mean that you can add another FW800 unit to
the second port. I.e. you connect 1 to the Mac's FW800 port and then you
can put another 2-bay - or 4-bay unit to port no. 2...

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Eh...? - That doesnot mean anything here. Both the IcyDock and Mercury
AL Pro have independant FW - one for FW400 and one for FW800.

I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.

Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...

[Tom Stiller]

In article <50bf8028$0$293$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> nospam wrote:
> > <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:
> >> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
> >> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
> >> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect
> >> through
> >> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.
> >
> > don't forget that firewire can be daisy chained. be sure to put the
> > slower drives (fw400) at the end of the chain.
>
> Eh...? - That doesnot mean anything here. Both the IcyDock and Mercury
> AL Pro have independant FW - one for FW400 and one for FW800.
>
> I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
> out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
> chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
> FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.
>
> Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
> enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
> other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...

I have absolutely no idea what "out-only" means when applied to a bus
architecture. Are you trying to make some sort of statement about the
bus controller?

I think you may have a defective interface. I don't have any problem
mixing and matching my FireWire 800 and 400 devices, including
networking between two Macs using the FireWire interface.

[nospam]

In article <50bf8028$0$293$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, Erik Richard

Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> >> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
> >> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
> >> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect
> >> through
> >> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.
> >
> > don't forget that firewire can be daisy chained. be sure to put the
> > slower drives (fw400) at the end of the chain.
>
> Eh...? - That doesnot mean anything here. Both the IcyDock and Mercury
> AL Pro have independant FW - one for FW400 and one for FW800.

there's one bridge. there are not two separate firewire busses in a
single peripheral.

> I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
> out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
> chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
> FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.

that's incorrect. you don't want to use fw400 as the uplink because
then the fw800 port would be limited to 400 speeds. however, you
*could* do that if you really wanted to.

> Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
> enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
> other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...

i don't know what you did but i've daisy chained drives with both fw400
and fw800 ports. it works fine.

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Tom Stiller wrote:
> In article <50bf8028$0$293$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>
>> nospam wrote:
>>> <persis...@spamarrest.com> wrote:
>>>> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
>>>> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
>>>> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect
>>>> through
>>>> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.
>>>
>>> don't forget that firewire can be daisy chained. be sure to put the
>>> slower drives (fw400) at the end of the chain.
>>
>> Eh...? - That doesnot mean anything here. Both the IcyDock and Mercury
>> AL Pro have independant FW - one for FW400 and one for FW800.
>>
>> I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
>> out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
>> chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
>> FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.
>>
>> Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
>> enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
>> other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...
>
> I have absolutely no idea what "out-only" means when applied to a bus
> architecture. Are you trying to make some sort of statement about the
> bus controller?

It should be obvious... Bu OK, I mean that the FW400 port is completely
independant from the FW800 ports on the AL Pro drive. This also means
that you can't put a FW400 drive to that port and connect it if you have
connected the AL Pro to the Mac (or PC) using the FW800 - and
visa-versa, if you connect to a computer through FW400, you can't add
FW800 units to the two FW800 ports and make these usable on a Mac/PC.

> I think you may have a defective interface. I don't have any problem
> mixing and matching my FireWire 800 and 400 devices, including
> networking between two Macs using the FireWire interface.

No defective ports on the two AL Pros that I have and yes, I can also
access any disk on any of my machines both Mac and Win, if they are
connected correctly.

[Tom Stiller]

In article <50bf9ad5$0$287$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> It should be obvious... Bu OK, I mean that the FW400 port is completely
> independant from the FW800 ports on the AL Pro drive. This also means
> that you can't put a FW400 drive to that port and connect it if you have
> connected the AL Pro to the Mac (or PC) using the FW800 - and
> visa-versa, if you connect to a computer through FW400, you can't add
> FW800 units to the two FW800 ports and make these usable on a Mac/PC.

My experience differs
FireWire 400 device daisy-chained from FireWire 800 device which is
connected to iMac with FireWire 800.

FireWire Bus:

Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec

OXFORD IDE Device LUN 0:

Manufacturer: Oxford Semiconductor Ltd.
Model: 0x0
GUID: 0x1D2000000C865
NB:
Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec
Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec

Sub-units:
OXFORD IDE Device LUN 0 Unit:
Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E
Firmware Revision: 0x28
Product Revision Level:
Sub-units:
OXFORD IDE Device LUN 0 SBP-LUN:
Capacity: 76.87 GB (76,869,918,720 bytes)
Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk4
Partition Map Type: APM (Apple Partition Map)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported

[snipped data on volumes]

Oxford ATA Device 00:

Manufacturer: Other World Computing
Model: 0x0
GUID: 0x1D202E0BE0B82
NB:
Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
Connection Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec

Sub-units:
Oxford ATA Device 00 Unit:
Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E
Firmware Revision: 0x100
Product Revision Level: 30.0
Sub-units:
Oxford ATA Device 00 SBP-LUN:
Capacity: 750.16 GB (750,156,374,016 bytes)
Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk2
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported
[snipped data on volumes]

[nospam]

In article <50bf9ad5$0$287$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, Erik Richard

Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> >> I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
> >> out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
> >> chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
> >> FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.
> >>
> >> Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
> >> enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
> >> other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...
> >
> > I have absolutely no idea what "out-only" means when applied to a bus
> > architecture. Are you trying to make some sort of statement about the
> > bus controller?
>
> It should be obvious... Bu OK, I mean that the FW400 port is completely
> independant from the FW800 ports on the AL Pro drive.

it's not.

> This also means
> that you can't put a FW400 drive to that port and connect it if you have
> connected the AL Pro to the Mac (or PC) using the FW800 - and
> visa-versa, if you connect to a computer through FW400, you can't add
> FW800 units to the two FW800 ports and make these usable on a Mac/PC.

yes you can.

[W]

Erik, I confirmed that IcyDock controls two drives in JBOD mode with a
single Firewire 800 connection. The second Firewire 800 is for output to
chain of FW800 devices.

I have one on order and thanks for your suggestion!

--
W


"Erik Richard Sřrensen" <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote in message
news:50be881b$0$287$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...

Erik Richard Sřrensen, Member of ADC, <mac-m...@Mstofanet.dk>

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

nospam wrote:
> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>>>> That's close enough to what I need and I'll get one. Unfortunately it
>>>> looks like two Firewire 800 on the back means one port is wired to one
>>>> drive. On a Mac Mini that means one of the two drives will connect
>>>> through
>>>> Firewire 400. But for my application that is okay.
>>>
>>> don't forget that firewire can be daisy chained. be sure to put the
>>> slower drives (fw400) at the end of the chain.
>>
>> Eh...? - That doesnot mean anything here. Both the IcyDock and Mercury
>> AL Pro have independant FW - one for FW400 and one for FW800.
>
> there's one bridge. there are not two separate firewire busses in a
> single peripheral.

I've clearly said I don't know how it is in the IcyDock, but the bridge
in the Elite AL Pro Quad for SATA disks are a special combo version
built on the Oxford934 chipset with 2x FW800, 1x FW400, 1x USB2.0HS/1.1
and 1xs eSATA. Each group (= connection type) is working individually so
throughput between the connection types are completely blocked.

>> I'm not sure with the IcyDock, but the FW400 port on the Mercury unit is
>> out-only - i.e. you cannot use the FW800 ports for any kind of daisy
>> chaining if you connect via the FW400 or visa-versa you can't use the
>> FW800 ports if you connect to the computer via FW400.
>
> that's incorrect. you don't want to use fw400 as the uplink because
> then the fw800 port would be limited to 400 speeds. however, you
> *could* do that if you really wanted to.

Of couse I'd use the fastest, but I also have computers only with FW400,
and here I of course connect using the FW400 connector.

>> Yes, I /have/ tried since I have 2 of the Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad
>> enclosures. I hoped to be able to use the FW400 for connecting some
>> other external FW units - no luck, so I had to buy a FW400 hub instead...
>
> i don't know what you did but i've daisy chained drives with both fw400
> and fw800 ports. it works fine.

Of course you can mix drives with FW400 and FW800 as long as you're
using the same connection type, but you can't connect an AL Pro Quad
this way

MacPro/FW800 -> AL Pro/FW800 and then connect an older Elite Pro using
the AL Pro's FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 or any other external drive with
only FW400.

And you can't connect it this way: MacPro/FW800 -> AL Pro/FW800 and then
from the AL Pro/(USB to any other USB device.

You also can connect MacPro/FW400 -> AL Pro/FW400, but here you can't
add *any* drive to the AL Pro's FW800 for further daisy chaining.

This means that hte AL Pro Quad enclosures donot have a built-in 'hub
function'. - This is opposite what the NewerTech MiniStack V3 has. Here
you have a 'hub functionality' so you can add what you like as long as
you don't exceed the amount of ports. On the MiniStack V3 you can
cross-connect bnetween FW400 and FW800, but not from FW to/from USB or
eSATA.

Until I got two Firewire hubs I had two of my Elite Pro disks connected
(daisy chained) to one of my MiniStack V3's FW400 with the V3 connected
to the MacPro using FW800. But now with the two FW400 hubs I can have
all my FW400 units connected at one and the same time and turn them
on/off individually - just as I do with my USB units and an USB hub...

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

This sounds really strange to me with OWC enclosures - at least with the
Mercury Elite Pro and Elite AL Pros..., since the FW400 and USB ports
are blocked as soon as you connect a FW800 cable to the FW800 port. -
You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
FW400-only devices.

If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.

These Mercury enclosures donot have hub functionality:
- Mercury Elite (FW400 or USB2.0/1.1, ATA/IDE)
- Mercury Elite Pro (FW400 or FW400 + USB2.0, ATA/IDE)
- Mercury Elite Al (FW400/800 or FW400/800 + USB or
FW400/800 + eSATA, SATA)
- Mercury Elite AL Pro (FW400/800 + USB, ATA/IDE, dual-bay only)
- Mercury Elite AL Pro (FW400/800 + USB, SATA)
- Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad (FW400/800 + USB2.0/1.1 + eSATA, SATA)
- Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad RAID (FW400/800 + USB2.0/1.1 + eSATA, SATA)

The Quad models are available in 1-, 2- or 4-bay versions.

[Tom Stiller]

In article <50bfe372$0$286$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> Tom Stiller wrote:
> > Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
> >> It should be obvious... Bu OK, I mean that the FW400 port is completely
> >> independant from the FW800 ports on the AL Pro drive. This also means
> >> that you can't put a FW400 drive to that port and connect it if you have
> >> connected the AL Pro to the Mac (or PC) using the FW800 - and
> >> visa-versa, if you connect to a computer through FW400, you can't add
> >> FW800 units to the two FW800 ports and make these usable on a Mac/PC.
> >
> > My experience differs
> > FireWire 400 device daisy-chained from FireWire 800 device which is
> > connected to iMac with FireWire 800.
> >
> > FireWire Bus:
> >
> > Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
> >
> > OXFORD IDE Device LUN 0:
> >
> > Manufacturer: Oxford Semiconductor Ltd.
> > Model: 0x0
> > GUID: 0x1D2000000C865
> > NB:
> > Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec
> > Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec
> >

[snipped more non-essential data]

> >
> > [snipped data on volumes]
> >
> > Oxford ATA Device 00:
> >
> > Manufacturer: Other World Computing
> > Model: 0x0
> > GUID: 0x1D202E0BE0B82
> > NB:
> > Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
> > Connection Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
> >

[snipped more non-essential data]

> > [snipped data on volumes]
>
> This sounds really strange to me with OWC enclosures - at least with the
> Mercury Elite Pro and Elite AL Pros..., since the FW400 and USB ports
> are blocked as soon as you connect a FW800 cable to the FW800 port. -

Obviously not.

I assure you I'm using a Firewire 800 cable to connect the iMac to the
"750GB OWC Mercury Elite-AL Pro Quad Interface 7200RPM"
eSATA/FW800/FW400/USB2 Storage Solution which is connected by a FireWire
400 cable to the "OWC Mercury Elite 75GB FireWire External Pro Storage
Solution".

The data above were copied from the output of System Profiler, snipped
where indicated to shorten the quoting.

> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
> FW400-only devices.
>
> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.

Waddya mean? I _can_ and _do_ connect as indicated using the devices as
described in their OWC invoices. Maybe you should check your sources.

>
> These Mercury enclosures donot have hub functionality:
> - Mercury Elite (FW400 or USB2.0/1.1, ATA/IDE)
> - Mercury Elite Pro (FW400 or FW400 + USB2.0, ATA/IDE)
> - Mercury Elite Al (FW400/800 or FW400/800 + USB or
> FW400/800 + eSATA, SATA)
> - Mercury Elite AL Pro (FW400/800 + USB, ATA/IDE, dual-bay only)
> - Mercury Elite AL Pro (FW400/800 + USB, SATA)
> - Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad (FW400/800 + USB2.0/1.1 + eSATA, SATA)
> - Mercury Elite AL Pro Quad RAID (FW400/800 + USB2.0/1.1 + eSATA, SATA)
>
> The Quad models are available in 1-, 2- or 4-bay versions.
>
> Cheers, Erik Richard

--

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Yes, I assumed so... but still strange since it should be impossible.

>> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
>> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
>> FW400-only devices.
>>
>> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
>> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
>> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
>
> Waddya mean? I _can_ and _do_ connect as indicated using the devices as
> described in their OWC invoices. Maybe you should check your sources.

No problems with my drives. they are working just perfectly well.:-)

The only solution that I can think of is that is is different in the
multi-bay AL Pro quads than in the single-bay AL Pro Quad enclosures -
and then it can only be a variant in the Oxford chipset itself.

[Andreas Rutishauser]

Salut Erik

In article <50bfd858$0$289$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
Erik Richard S�rensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> nospam wrote:

using a FW800/FW400 cable/adapter on the 2nd FW800 port to connect a
FW400 peripheral should work, no?

Cheers
Andreas

--
MacAndreas Rutishauser, <http://www.MacAndreas.ch>
EDV-Dienstleistungen, Hard- und Software, Internet und Netzwerk
Beratung, Unterstuetzung und Schulung
<mailto:and...@MacAndreas.ch>, Fon: 044 / 721 36 47

[Tom Stiller]

In article <50c00596$0$285$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

Erik Richard S�rensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> Tom Stiller wrote:

> > Erik Richard S�rensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

[snipped history from Apple Profiler]

> >> This sounds really strange to me with OWC enclosures - at least with the
> >> Mercury Elite Pro and Elite AL Pros..., since the FW400 and USB ports
> >> are blocked as soon as you connect a FW800 cable to the FW800 port. -
> >
> > Obviously not.
> >
> > I assure you I'm using a Firewire 800 cable to connect the iMac to the
> > "750GB OWC Mercury Elite-AL Pro Quad Interface 7200RPM"
> > eSATA/FW800/FW400/USB2 Storage Solution which is connected by a FireWire
> > 400 cable to the "OWC Mercury Elite 75GB FireWire External Pro Storage
> > Solution".
> >
> > The data above were copied from the output of System Profiler, snipped
> > where indicated to shorten the quoting.
>
> Yes, I assumed so... but still strange since it should be impossible.

According to what or whom?

>
> >> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
> >> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
> >> FW400-only devices.
> >>
> >> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
> >> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
> >> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
> >
> > Waddya mean? I _can_ and _do_ connect as indicated using the devices as
> > described in their OWC invoices. Maybe you should check your sources.
>
> No problems with my drives. they are working just perfectly well.:-)

I didn't mean your drives; I meant the source of your information on the
behavior of FireWire interfaces.

>
> The only solution that I can think of is that is is different in the
> multi-bay AL Pro quads than in the single-bay AL Pro Quad enclosures -
> and then it can only be a variant in the Oxford chipset itself.
>

Fortunately for the rest of us, there might be factors you haven't
thought of.

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Andreas Rutishauser wrote:

> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>> nospam wrote:

Yes, and this is the only way you can do it. And it works fine. - Of
course you'll only get FW400 speed from any FW400 unit connected with a
FW800->FW400 cable.

As written I've tried to connect another FW400 directly to the FW400
port on my AL Pro Quad's FW400 socket, but there is no connection from
the AL Pro Quad to another FW400 unit.

[Tom Stiller]

In article <50c0b3bc$0$283$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> Andreas Rutishauser wrote:

[snip]

> >
> > using a FW800/FW400 cable/adapter on the 2nd FW800 port to connect a
> > FW400 peripheral should work, no?
>
> Yes, and this is the only way you can do it. And it works fine. - Of
> course you'll only get FW400 speed from any FW400 unit connected with a
> FW800->FW400 cable.

That statement is not correct as it stands; I have offered a
counterexample with supporting documentation.
iMac <- FW800 -> Elite-AL Pro Quad <-FW400-> OWC Mercury Elite

There are no adapter cables. One straight through FW800 cable and one
straight through FW400 cable.

>
> As written I've tried to connect another FW400 directly to the FW400
> port on my AL Pro Quad's FW400 socket, but there is no connection from
> the AL Pro Quad to another FW400 unit.
>

Maybe the problem lies with your device(s).

In any event, I'm finished with this discussion.

[David Empson]

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> Tom Stiller wrote:
> > Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
> >> It should be obvious... Bu OK, I mean that the FW400 port is completely
> >> independant from the FW800 ports on the AL Pro drive. This also means
> >> that you can't put a FW400 drive to that port and connect it if you have
> >> connected the AL Pro to the Mac (or PC) using the FW800 - and
> >> visa-versa, if you connect to a computer through FW400, you can't add
> >> FW800 units to the two FW800 ports and make these usable on a Mac/PC.
> >
> > My experience differs
> > FireWire 400 device daisy-chained from FireWire 800 device which is
> > connected to iMac with FireWire 800.

[...]

> This sounds really strange to me with OWC enclosures - at least with the
> Mercury Elite Pro and Elite AL Pros..., since the FW400 and USB ports
> are blocked as soon as you connect a FW800 cable to the FW800 port. -
> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
> FW400-only devices.

That is wrong.

Here is the text from the manual of the OWC Mercury Elite Pro
(eSATA/FW800/FW400/USB 2.0, single drive):

"Note: You may only have one computer interface directly connected to
the drive at a time. When using FireWire, the additional FireWire ports
on the drive may be used to interconnect additional FireWire devices.
Note: If you are using FireWire 800 and add a FireWire 400 device to the
chain, all devices will be reduced to FireWire 400 performance."

(The last sentence is misleading - in my experience, adding a FW400
device at the end of a FW800 chain has no impact on the performance of
communication between the host and the FW800 devices.)

This explicitly states that you can use the Firewire ports to connect
additional devices, and only distinguishes between the FW400 and FW800
ports for speed.

There is a single Firewire PHY inside the Oxford chipset, and all three
ports connect to it.

I have similar single drive enclosures from another vendor with an older
Oxford chipset and the same combination of ports. I can use the FW400
and FW800 ports on the drive simultaneously in a daisy-chain
configuration, typically to connect a FW400-only device after one or
more FW800 devices, to minimise the performance impact.

> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.

I hadn't tried using all three ports at once on my enclosure, but I have
now. I put together a configuration as follows:

1. MacBook Pro (FW800)

2. MacPower Pleaides (Oxford 924 chipset, eSATA/FW400/FW800/USB2, single
SATA drive)

3. PowerMac G5 in target mode (using FW800)

4. MacPower Optical drive enclosure (FW400/USB2)

Connections are:

1. FW800 MacBook Pro to Pleaides
2. FW800 Pleaides to PowerMac G5
3. FW400 Pleaides to Optical drive

The MacPower Pleaides is acting as a Firewire hub, allowing me to
connect two daisy-chained devices, and mix FW400/FW800.

All devices work as expected.

I expect other drives using Oxford chipsets can also do this.

(Can't mix eSATA, USB and Firewire of course - the different types of
interfaces are mutually exclusive.)


Here is an extract my system profile dump, trimmed for brevity.

FireWire Bus:

Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec

Target Disk Mode:

Manufacturer: AAPL
Model: 0x54444D
GUID: 0xD93FFFE6CED72

Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
Connection Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
Sub-units:

Target Disk Mode Unit:

Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E

Firmware Revision: 0x0
Product Revision Level: 0
Sub-units:
Target Disk Mode LUN:
Target Disk Mode Unit:

Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E

Firmware Revision: 0x0
Product Revision Level: 0
Sub-units:
Target Disk Mode LUN:
Capacity: 160.04 GB (160,041,885,696 bytes)

Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk2

Partition Map Type: APM (Apple Partition Map)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported

Volumes:
[partition and volume details omitted]

External 1394 Storage Device:

Manufacturer: Macpower Peripherals Ltd.
Model: 0x1
GUID: 0x1D205003B09B5

Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec
Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec
Sub-units:

External 1394 Storage Device Unit:

Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E

Firmware Revision: 0x100102
Product Revision Level: 1.06
Sub-units:
External 1394 Storage Device SBP-LUN:
Capacity: 777.4 MB (777,430,080 bytes)
Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk5
Partition Map Type: Unknown
S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported
Volumes:
[partition and volume details omitted]

Oxford ATA Device 00:

Manufacturer: Macpower
Model: 0x0
GUID: 0x1D202E0CD00C1

Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
Connection Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec
Sub-units:
Oxford ATA Device 00 Unit:
Unit Software Version: 0x10483
Unit Spec ID: 0x609E
Firmware Revision: 0x100

Product Revision Level: CC4C

Sub-units:
Oxford ATA Device 00 SBP-LUN:

Capacity: 2 TB (2,000,398,934,016 bytes)

Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk4

Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported

Volumes:
[partition and volume details omitted]


--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

Tom Stiller wrote:

> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>> Tom Stiller wrote:

>>> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>>>> This sounds really strange to me with OWC enclosures - at least withthe
>>>> Mercury Elite Pro and Elite AL Pros..., since the FW400 and USB ports
>>>> are blocked as soon as you connect a FW800 cable to the FW800 port. -
>>>
>>> Obviously not.
>>>
>>> I assure you I'm using a Firewire 800 cable to connect the iMac to the
>>> "750GB OWC Mercury Elite-AL Pro Quad Interface 7200RPM"
>>> eSATA/FW800/FW400/USB2 Storage Solution which is connected by a FireWire
>>> 400 cable to the "OWC Mercury Elite 75GB FireWire External Pro Storage
>>> Solution".
>>>
>>> The data above were copied from the output of System Profiler, snipped
>>> where indicated to shorten the quoting.
>>
>> Yes, I assumed so... but still strange since it should be impossible.
>
> According to what or whom?

Information I've got from OWC and manufacturers of FW chipsets.

>>>> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
>>>> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
>>>> FW400-only devices.
>>>>
>>>> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
>>>> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
>>>> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
>>>
>>> Waddya mean? I _can_ and _do_ connect as indicated using the devices as
>>> described in their OWC invoices. Maybe you should check your sources.
>>
>> No problems with my drives. they are working just perfectly well.:-)
>
> I didn't mean your drives; I meant the source of your information on the
> behavior of FireWire interfaces.

As above - from OWC and the inlay/white paper in the enclosure boxes as
well as personal testing with the devices.

>> The only solution that I can think of is that is is different in the

>> multi-bay AL Pro Quads than in the single-bay AL Pro Quad enclosures -

>> and then it can only be a variant in the Oxford chipset itself.
>
> Fortunately for the rest of us, there might be factors you haven't
> thought of.

Maybe, but where? - OK, I can add a thought that I've been thinking of
during the later day whre I was out installing a newer Mac system in
some of my friend's home. - It might be because that the multi-bay
enclosures that I have are RAID enclosures, but then it should be - as
you describge it - possible to daisy-chain the one Quad enclosure I have
and which isnot a RAID enclosure but the standard 2-bay Quad version for
2 harddisks...

[nospam]

In article <50c12321$0$286$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>, Erik Richard

Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> >>>> You can do it if you're using FW800<->FW400 cables using the FW800 ports
> >>>> in devices where they are available and then to FW400 ports in
> >>>> FW400-only devices.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
> >>>> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
> >>>> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
> >>>
> >>> Waddya mean? I _can_ and _do_ connect as indicated using the devices as
> >>> described in their OWC invoices. Maybe you should check your sources.
> >>
> >> No problems with my drives. they are working just perfectly well.:-)
> >
> > I didn't mean your drives; I meant the source of your information on the
> > behavior of FireWire interfaces.
>
> As above - from OWC and the inlay/white paper in the enclosure boxes as
> well as personal testing with the devices.

scan it and post a link.

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

As already mentioned my devices are the Quad 2-bay RAID enclosures and
with these it isnot possible. I don't have any of the AL Pro Quad
single-bay enclosures - only the older Elite Pro/FW400 enclosures.

Connecting these to the AL Pro Quad with FW800 from my MacPro to the
Quad's FW800 port and then the Quad's FW400 port to the Elite Pro
doesnot work.

And already as written. - It works just fine using my NewerTech V3
enclosures.

So the 'problem' (if it is a problem) is either because the ports are
blocked using other FW connectors or may be because the 2-bay enclosures
are RAID enclosures.

>> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
>> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
>> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
>
> I hadn't tried using all three ports at once on my enclosure, but I have
> now. I put together a configuration as follows:
>
> 1. MacBook Pro (FW800)
>
> 2. MacPower Pleaides (Oxford 924 chipset, eSATA/FW400/FW800/USB2, single
> SATA drive)
>
> 3. PowerMac G5 in target mode (using FW800)
>
> 4. MacPower Optical drive enclosure (FW400/USB2)
>
> Connections are:
>
> 1. FW800 MacBook Pro to Pleaides
> 2. FW800 Pleaides to PowerMac G5
> 3. FW400 Pleaides to Optical drive
>
> The MacPower Pleaides is acting as a Firewire hub, allowing me to
> connect two daisy-chained devices, and mix FW400/FW800.
>
> All devices work as expected.
>
> I expect other drives using Oxford chipsets can also do this.
>
> (Can't mix eSATA, USB and Firewire of course - the different types of
> interfaces are mutually exclusive.)

I've tried the same...
MacPro/FW800 -> AL Pro Quad/FW800 <-AL Pro Quad/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400
- no connection to the Elite Pro

MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
AL Pro/FW400 - full connection

MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
AL Pro/FW400 <- AL Pro/FW800 -> AL Pro/FW800 - no connection to the AL Pros.

MacPro/FW800 -> MiniStack Vi/FW800 -> MiniStack V3/FW800 <- MiniStack
V3/FW400 -> AL Pro/FW400 - full connection

Cheeers, Erik Richard

[David Empson]

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> David Empson wrote:

[...]

> > I have similar single drive enclosures from another vendor with an older
> > Oxford chipset and the same combination of ports. I can use the FW400
> > and FW800 ports on the drive simultaneously in a daisy-chain
> > configuration, typically to connect a FW400-only device after one or
> > more FW800 devices, to minimise the performance impact.
>
> As already mentioned my devices are the Quad 2-bay RAID enclosures and
> with these it isnot possible. I don't have any of the AL Pro Quad
> single-bay enclosures - only the older Elite Pro/FW400 enclosures.

Ah, I missed that detail in an earlier post.

> Connecting these to the AL Pro Quad with FW800 from my MacPro to the
> Quad's FW800 port and then the Quad's FW400 port to the Elite Pro
> doesnot work.
>
> And already as written. - It works just fine using my NewerTech V3
> enclosures.

Does the NewerTech V3 have an Oxford chipset?

If it does, I expect it is similar in arrangement to my single drive
enclosure, so the multiple Firewire ports act like a hub; the
NewerTech's built-in USB hub is implemented using a separate component
which is independent of the Oxford chipset.

> So the 'problem' (if it is a problem) is either because the ports are
> blocked using other FW connectors or may be because the 2-bay enclosures
> are RAID enclosures.

Sounds like something different in the way the controller board is
implemented, perhaps with separate controllers for the FW400 and FW800
ports. This seems most likely to be a side effect of the RAID support.

> >> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
> >> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
> >> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
> >
> > I hadn't tried using all three ports at once on my enclosure, but I have
> > now. I put together a configuration as follows:
> >

> > [Demonstration that DE's single drive enclosure can act as a Firewire hub]

>
> I've tried the same...
> MacPro/FW800 -> AL Pro Quad/FW800 <-AL Pro Quad/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400
> - no connection to the Elite Pro
>
> MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
> AL Pro/FW400 - full connection
>
> MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
> AL Pro/FW400 <- AL Pro/FW800 -> AL Pro/FW800 - no connection to the AL Pros.

Your diagrams are hard to follow. I assume in the first case you have a
FW800 cable from the MacPro to the AL Pro Quad and a FW400 cable from
the AL Pro Quad to the Elite Pro.

The third case is harder to parse due to a typo but I think you had:

FW400 cable from MacPro to Elite Pro
FW400 cable from Elite Pro to AL Pro #1
FW800 cable from AL Pro #1 to AL Pro #2

If both AL Pros didn't work, that suggests it has a prioritised
interface selector with the FW800 ports being higher priority than the
FW400 connector, which must mean they have separate Firewire controllers
in that model.

> MacPro/FW800 -> MiniStack Vi/FW800 -> MiniStack V3/FW800 <- MiniStack
> V3/FW400 -> AL Pro/FW400 - full connection

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

David Empson wrote:
> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:
>> David Empson wrote:
>>> I have similar single drive enclosures from another vendor with an older
>>> Oxford chipset and the same combination of ports. I can use the FW400
>>> and FW800 ports on the drive simultaneously in a daisy-chain
>>> configuration, typically to connect a FW400-only device after one or
>>> more FW800 devices, to minimise the performance impact.
>>
>> As already mentioned my devices are the Quad 2-bay RAID enclosures and
>> with these it isnot possible. I don't have any of the AL Pro Quad
>> single-bay enclosures - only the older Elite Pro/FW400 enclosures.
>
> Ah, I missed that detail in an earlier post.
>
>> Connecting these to the AL Pro Quad with FW800 from my MacPro to the
>> Quad's FW800 port and then the Quad's FW400 port to the Elite Pro
>> doesnot work.
>>
>> And already as written. - It works just fine using my NewerTech V3
>> enclosures.
>
> Does the NewerTech V3 have an Oxford chipset?
>
> If it does, I expect it is similar in arrangement to my single drive
> enclosure, so the multiple Firewire ports act like a hub; the
> NewerTech's built-in USB hub is implemented using a separate component
> which is independent of the Oxford chipset.

Yes, they both have an Oxford934 chipset, but which variant I can't
remember, - the boxes are stored in the cellar...

>> So the 'problem' (if it is a problem) is either because the ports are
>> blocked using other FW connectors or may be because the 2-bay enclosures
>> are RAID enclosures.
>
> Sounds like something different in the way the controller board is
> implemented, perhaps with separate controllers for the FW400 and FW800
> ports. This seems most likely to be a side effect of the RAID support.
>
>>>> If you should be able to do as you describe, the enclosures must have a
>>>> 'hub functionality', - and as just written, the only ones I'm aware of
>>>> that has this function is the NewerTech MiniStack V3 enclosures.
>>>
>>> I hadn't tried using all three ports at once on my enclosure, but I have
>>> now. I put together a configuration as follows:
>>>
>>> [Demonstration that DE's single drive enclosure can act as a Firewire hub]
>>
>> I've tried the same...
>> MacPro/FW800 -> AL Pro Quad/FW800 <-AL Pro Quad/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400
>> - no connection to the Elite Pro
>>
>> MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
>> AL Pro/FW400 - full connection
>>
>> MacPro/FW400 -> Elite Pro/FW400 <- Elite Pro/FW00 -> Elite Pro/FW400 ->
>> AL Pro/FW400 <- AL Pro/FW800 -> AL Pro/FW800 - no connection to the AL Pros.
>
> Your diagrams are hard to follow. I assume in the first case you have a
> FW800 cable from the MacPro to the AL Pro Quad and a FW400 cable from
> the AL Pro Quad to the Elite Pro.

That's correct. - And I agree that it sometimes can be a bit tricky to
explain just using text.:-)

> The third case is harder to parse due to a typo but I think you had:
>
> FW400 cable from MacPro to Elite Pro
> FW400 cable from Elite Pro to AL Pro #1
> FW800 cable from AL Pro #1 to AL Pro #2
>
> If both AL Pros didn't work, that suggests it has a prioritised
> interface selector with the FW800 ports being higher priority than the
> FW400 connector, which must mean they have separate Firewire controllers
> in that model.

Argh.:-( - A single word is missing here... - Maybe I was too tired when
I wrote this. - I was out nearly all day setting up a new Mac system for
a couple, who both are very, very visually impaired...

"no connection to the AL Pros"

...should be
"no connection to the *last* AL Pro"

to make sense.:-)

Cheers, Erik Richard

[David Empson]

Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

> David Empson wrote:
> > Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

[...]

So the first AL Pro preferred its FW400 connection over FW800. Perhaps
that one was plugged in first, and it has a "first active interface"
priority scheme. It is still odd that the FW400 and FW800 ports are
mutually exclusive, as many other devices don't have that limitation.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Erik Richard Sørensen]

David Empson wrote:
> Erik Richard Sørensen <tu...@tulle.dk> wrote:

>> David Empson wrote:
>>> The third case is harder to parse due to a typo but I think you had:
>>>
>>> FW400 cable from MacPro to Elite Pro
>>> FW400 cable from Elite Pro to AL Pro #1
>>> FW800 cable from AL Pro #1 to AL Pro #2
>>>
>>> If both AL Pros didn't work, that suggests it has a prioritised
>>> interface selector with the FW800 ports being higher priority than the
>>> FW400 connector, which must mean they have separate Firewire controllers
>>> in that model.
>>
>> Argh.:-( - A single word is missing here... - Maybe I was too tired when
>> I wrote this. - I was out nearly all day setting up a new Mac system for
>> a couple, who both are very, very visually impaired...
>>
>> "no connection to the AL Pros"
>> ...should be
>> "no connection to the *last* AL Pro"
>>
>> to make sense.:-)
>
> So the first AL Pro preferred its FW400 connection over FW800. Perhaps
> that one was plugged in first, and it has a "first active interface"
> priority scheme. It is still odd that the FW400 and FW800 ports are
> mutually exclusive, as many other devices don't have that limitation.

What do you think I think.:-)? - Especially since both my MiniStack V3
have no problems, - but these are also just single-bay enclosures... My
conclusion is that it has something to do with the RAID in the 2-bay AL
Pro Quad enclosures...