Linux user's followup thoughts on OS X/12" iBook
Yeechang Lee
brother's new iBook G4
(<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnc17egl.8bv.ylee%40pobox.com>),
then my own 15" AlBook
(<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnbvk9nn.ao0.ylee%40pobox.com>).
Since the latter, I have sold said AlBook and just received a BTO
iBook G4 60GB Bluetooth of my own. Please see the previous articles
for context.
POSITIVES:
* As hoped, I definitely prefer the iBook's size to the 15" AlBook. I
can easily envision throwing the iBook into my messenger bag to tote
around; not that I couldn't do that with the AlBook, but it wouldn't
be the same.
* All else being equal, I do prefer the AlBooks' cool (and hot, in
both senses of both words) aluminum case; that said, all else is not
equal, and I am quite happy to give up a metal case in exchange for
the iBooks' greater durability.
* Speaking of cases, the bottom of the iBook can get hot, but so far
it hasn't hit the egg-frying AlBook heights. The obvious is also
true; I don't expect the iBook's case to be ever so bone-chillingly
cold as the AlBook's.
* The two little rubber detents on the inside of the lid give the
closed iBook a solid feeling that the AlBook lacked. (I still can't
believe Apple intentionally designed a case for the 15" AlBook that
doesn't close completely, especially when the older 12" AlBook
doesn't have this issue. Having to buy little silicone feet from
RadTech (<URL:http://www.radtech.us>)--as I did--is just
ridiculous. But then this is a company that singlehandedly created a
cottage industry of third-party touch-up paint for its TiBooks.)
* Perhaps related to the previous point, the latch on my iBook is
defintely more solid-feeling than on the AlBook. I never had the
"latch doesn't close" problem many reported with early 15" AlBooks,
but the iBook definitely closes more solidly than the
AlBook. Conversely, the iBook's latch button is definitely stiffer
and needs greater pressure to open than the AlBook's.
* The iBook has come through with my other major hope versus the
AlBook in terms of battery life. With the same usage pattern, I get
4:30 +- 15 minutes versus 3:00-3:15 with the AlBook. I don't think
such longevity is achievable with any single-battery x86 laptop this
side of the ThinkPad T40/41.
* I've heard it said that the 15" and 17" AlBooks' screens are far
superior in display quality to that of the 12" iBooks and
AlBooks. Can't say I've noticed much of a difference myself. In
terms of real estate, the 1024x768 12" screen is more than adequate
given my needs. One clear advantage for both iBooks versus the two
AlBooks I owned: No stuck pixels!
* The keyboard, while definitely more flimsy feeling than the
AlBook's, is quite acceptable.
NEGATIVES:
* Not unsurprisingly, the speed difference compared to the AlBook is
definitely noticeable, though I am unsure whether half the memory or
two thirds the horsepower is the greater contributor. It's perhaps
most visible so far in Divx AVI playbacks off a Samba file
server. Still quite usable, though. I am curious what GarageBand
will be like; given that I once got the low resources warning with
GarageBand during playback on my AlBook, I suspect the little iBook
is going to be hard pressed to keep up with pretty much anything
GarageBand related.
* As with many others, I find that the left front palm rest creaks
when I squeeze or pick up the corner. I very much hope this isn't
some precursor of an endemic design fault akin to the iBook G3 (AKA
"son of PowerBook 5300")'s logic board!
* Despite (or perhaps because of) the detents, the lid is just
slightly curved around the latch area, similar to my AlBook; that
is, the lid edge is noticeably closer to the base near the middle
versus the sides. C'mon, Apple; how can you still not get laptop
lids right after more than a decade in the business?!?
* Due to the iBook's shorter palm rest area my wrists feel the sharp
edge of the bottom of the case after some use, something that did
not happen with the AlBook.
* My gripe about this the last time inspired more than 150 Usenet
posts, but I'll go again, because it needs to be said again:
> For 21 years people have complained about the lack of multiple
> buttons on Apple mice and for 21 years Apple fans have come up with
> every excuse under the sun to rationalize the company's
> decision. Yes, I can buy a third-party mouse. But while this is an
> acceptable solution for a desktop, not so for a laptop.
Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
rest of us a choice.
QUESTIONS/OBSERVATIONS:
* I wonder how battery life will be affected by expanding memory to
640MB? I suspect it may improve a little bit given less need to swap
out to disk.
* Why does the last 15% of the battery seemingly take as long to
charge as the first 85%? I presume it's from some anti-overcharging
circuit, but there surely must be a better way.
* Why doesn't Apple use Software Update as a conduit to provide
patches for all Apple brand software? For example, I had to manually
download the GarageBand 1.0.1 update.
* How can I get Samba connections to automatically (re)establish
themselves? It's annoying having to manually reconnect through
Apple-K in the Finder ever time I wake the computer from sleep.
* If Apple went to the trouble of providing a plugin functionality for
Calculator, why not one to handle RPN? At least there's GNU dc from
the command line.
* There ought to be an option to display short user names in the upper
right hand corner when using Fast User Switch, especially given the
iBook's smaller screen real estate.
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
22:21:01 up 15 days, 31 min, 19 users, load average: 1.02, 1.06, 1.07
181 processes: 177 sleeping, 3 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 30.2% user 6.5% system 63.2% nice 0.0% iowait 0.0% idle
Michael Duffy plus.net>
<snip>
> QUESTIONS/OBSERVATIONS:
> * I wonder how battery life will be affected by expanding memory to
> 640MB? I suspect it may improve a little bit given less need to swap
> out to disk.
Having just added the additonal 512mb to my iBook I cannot say I have
noticed any difference in battery life. I have however noticed an
amazing leap in performance!
> * Why does the last 15% of the battery seemingly take as long to
> charge as the first 85%? I presume it's from some anti-overcharging
> circuit, but there surely must be a better way.
> * Why doesn't Apple use Software Update as a conduit to provide
> patches for all Apple brand software? For example, I had to manually
> download the GarageBand 1.0.1 update.
Odd; there is certainly updates for Keynote listed in the software
update list; it must work for some apps and not others...
Peter Hayes
<...>
> * The two little rubber detents on the inside of the lid give the
> closed iBook a solid feeling that the AlBook lacked. (I still can't
> believe Apple intentionally designed a case for the 15" AlBook that
> doesn't close completely,
I suspect this was done to "fix" the white spot problems with the 15"
screen.
> * I've heard it said that the 15" and 17" AlBooks' screens are far
> superior in display quality to that of the 12" iBooks and
> AlBooks. Can't say I've noticed much of a difference myself. In
> terms of real estate, the 1024x768 12" screen is more than adequate
Whatever suits you, but the widescreen ratio of the 15" AlBook is just
so pleasant to work with compared to the usual 4:3.
--
Peter
Roger
Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
> rest of us a choice.
No thanks; multiple buttons are unnecessary and in the way, *especially*
on a laptop, anti-ergonomics fanatic.
hth this time,
Rog
John Johnson
> In January I posted two articles detailing my thoughts on, first, my
> brother's new iBook G4
> (<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnc17egl.8bv.ylee%40pobox.com>),
> then my own 15" AlBook
> (<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrnbvk9nn.ao0.ylee%40pobox.com>).
> Since the latter, I have sold said AlBook and just received a BTO
> iBook G4 60GB Bluetooth of my own. Please see the previous articles
> for context.
>
> POSITIVES:
[snip]
Summary: size, construction, battery life
> NEGATIVES:
> * As with many others, I find that the left front palm rest creaks
> when I squeeze or pick up the corner. I very much hope this isn't
> some precursor of an endemic design fault akin to the iBook G3 (AKA
> "son of PowerBook 5300")'s logic board!
Why would a case creak indicate anything about the quality of the
electrics?
[snip]
Summary: Mouse
> QUESTIONS/OBSERVATIONS:
> * I wonder how battery life will be affected by expanding memory to
> 640MB? I suspect it may improve a little bit given less need to swap
> out to disk.
If it keeps you from swapping out to disk, your battery will last
longer. If you aren't swapping out to disk, your battery won't last
quite as long (though it may not be noticable).
> * Why does the last 15% of the battery seemingly take as long to
> charge as the first 85%? I presume it's from some anti-overcharging
> circuit, but there surely must be a better way.
It's a result of the way that batteries work, IIRC. As I recall, all
batteries charge more slowly as they get closer to full charge, and
Li-ion batteries do so more than others. As you mentioned, overcharging
a Li-ion battery is a REALLY bad thing, potentially leading to fire,
explosion and other nuisances.
> * If Apple went to the trouble of providing a plugin functionality for
> Calculator, why not one to handle RPN? At least there's GNU dc from
> the command line.
If you're asking why the calculator doesn't do RPN, the answer should be
clear: Apple's calculator isn't a professional tool (and even then, many
professional calculators don't use RPN-though that is a change from the
past). I might be addressing the wrong issue, though. I don't really
understand what you mean by "a plugin functionality". IIRC, there exist
freeware GUI calculators that support RPN. Depending on what "plugin
functionality" is, it's possible that someone might be able to add it to
Apple's calculator
The comments about the calculator and the mouse seem to me to be similar
in the following way: they represent the desires of an experienced,
technically adept user (and one with specific preferences for his
professional tools). I think that it is fair to say that Apple's
built-in products are not designed for such uses.
The objection to this is to say "But give me the choice, at least!" In
some sense, you do have the choice: other manufacturers do make such
things (though RPN calculators are getting difficult to find). Now,
Apple might decide to allow users to bundle 3rd-party hardware with
their machines (e.g. uncheck the "Apple Pro mouse" option, and check the
"whatever" option. This would require Apple to reqlinquish their control
over the design of the products sold by them (and begin their move away
from a boutique product, IMO), which they will not do. Apple might
develop their own multi-button mouse to retain control of the design,
but they have philosophical and ergonomic arguments against multi-button
mice. As that argument has been rehearsed elsewhere, I won't say
anything about it here.
In addition to the philosophical issues, such a system (selling a
different mouse, no matter who produces it) would increase the price of
hardware that is already considered too expensive by the majority of
computer consumers. Never mind the actual cost of the hardware, such a
program would add to Apple's record-keeping and warehousing costs, which
would make the 3rd-party mouse much more expensive than purchasing it
from a store. At that rate, I suspect that most people who wanted
multi-button mice would just buy one themselves.
Whatever you think about Apple's philosophy of unified design and
minimizing certain (I will not address which ones) choices for their
equipment, it is consistent, and does have significant advantages for
(certain) consumers. If one don't share those advantages, then they just
have to decide whether the other advantages are enough, in the same way
that that consumer has to decide whether Linux or Windows, or OS X suits
them best-while knowing that none of these will be the perfect OS.
I am kill-filing this thread, as I do with all threads cross-posted to
comp.sys.mac.advocacy. If I wanted to read that group, I would.
Snit
2/16/04 12:34 AM:
> * My gripe about this the last time inspired more than 150 Usenet
> posts, but I'll go again, because it needs to be said again:
>
>> For 21 years people have complained about the lack of multiple
>> buttons on Apple mice and for 21 years Apple fans have come up with
>> every excuse under the sun to rationalize the company's
>> decision. Yes, I can buy a third-party mouse. But while this is an
>> acceptable solution for a desktop, not so for a laptop.
>
> Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
> rest of us a choice.
Your assertion that your point was not understood is mistaken. It was not,
fully, agreed with.
There is a difference.
Chris Brown
Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>"Yeechang Lee" <yl...@pobox.com> wrote in slrnc30sk...@pobox.com on
>2/16/04 12:34 AM:
>>
>> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
>> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
>> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
>> rest of us a choice.
>
>Your assertion that your point was not understood is mistaken.
Not IIRC. Before I simply gave up reading the previous thread, there were
large numbers of people explaining how he could replace the supplied
pointing device with a third party one. Since you cannot, in fact, do this
with a laptop (well, not without some major case surgery and voiding the
warranty), it is perfectly clear that the point was indeed misunderstood.
As an aside, it is somewhat incongruous that Apple supply, as part of their
system distribution, a windowing environment that assumes 3 mouse buttons
(X11R6), but don't provide an appropriate pointing device for using it. The
workaround sacrifices some meta keys, and is therefore not completely
satisfactory. My Desktop Macs both have wheel mice, but using certain apps
(e.g. Xv) on my iBook is often a frustrating affair.
Tim Smith
> * If Apple went to the trouble of providing a plugin functionality for
> Calculator, why not one to handle RPN? At least there's GNU dc from the
> command line.
There's an excellent HP-48 emulator that runs under OS X. Find that for all
your calculator needs.
--
--Tim Smith
Snit
nhb7g1-...@narcissus.dyndns.org on 2/16/04 10:34 AM:
> In article <BC5629CC.3E9A7%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>> "Yeechang Lee" <yl...@pobox.com> wrote in slrnc30sk...@pobox.com on
>> 2/16/04 12:34 AM:
>>>
>>> Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
>>> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
>>> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
>>> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
>>> rest of us a choice.
>>
>> Your assertion that your point was not understood is mistaken.
>
> Not IIRC. Before I simply gave up reading the previous thread, there were
> large numbers of people explaining how he could replace the supplied
> pointing device with a third party one. Since you cannot, in fact, do this
> with a laptop (well, not without some major case surgery and voiding the
> warranty), it is perfectly clear that the point was indeed misunderstood.
These comments were made in relation to the desktop machines, not the
laptops. If I am wrong, please point to to post.
>
> As an aside, it is somewhat incongruous that Apple supply, as part of their
> system distribution, a windowing environment that assumes 3 mouse buttons
> (X11R6), but don't provide an appropriate pointing device for using it. The
> workaround sacrifices some meta keys, and is therefore not completely
> satisfactory. My Desktop Macs both have wheel mice, but using certain apps
> (e.g. Xv) on my iBook is often a frustrating affair.
I can certainly understand this. I would suggest getting a mini-mouse with
the laptop if you are one of the minority of people who needs the extra
keys. Please note that few PC notebooks have three buttons, so this is not
a situation unique to Apple.
Snit
michelle-FBD21A...@news.west.cox.net on 2/16/04 11:49 AM:
> In article <nhb7g1-...@narcissus.dyndns.org>,
> Chris Brown <cpb...@ntlworld.no_uce_please.com> wrote:
>
>> As an aside, it is somewhat incongruous that Apple supply, as part of
>> their system distribution, a windowing environment that assumes 3
>> mouse buttons (X11R6), but don't provide an appropriate pointing
>> device for using it.
>
> Apple provides X11 as an option; very few people install it. A
> three-button mouse is also optional; the difference is that this option
> is not made by Apple.
Even by third parties there is no reasonable three button solution to the
portables, other than, of course, to carry a mouse in your case.
G.T.
There were several people that completely missed that point, even though
the fact that he was talking about a laptop was in the subject. There were
also many people who didn't agree with him, me not being one of them.
Carrying an extra mouse around because a laptop is lacking an extremely
productive feature is a pain.
Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late,
the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
Snit
> In article <hl8Yb.24486$X07....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
> "G.T." <eth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> There were several people that completely missed that point, even
>> though the fact that he was talking about a laptop was in the
>> subject. There were also many people who didn't agree with him, me
>> not being one of them. Carrying an extra mouse around because a
>> laptop is lacking an extremely productive feature is a pain.
>
> One reason I don't have a laptop is that I do not like trackpads or
> roller balls, so if I ever needed to have a laptop, I'd buy a mouse to
> schlep along anyway.
Ditto for me. This does not, however, change the frustration I can imagine
people who like track pads must get over needing keyboard short cuts or
other workarounds when the non-primary buttons are not available.
G.T.
> In article <hl8Yb.24486$X07....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
> "G.T." <eth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>>though the fact that he was talking about a laptop was in the
>>subject. There were also many people who didn't agree with him, me
>>not being one of them. Carrying an extra mouse around because a
>>laptop is lacking an extremely productive feature is a pain.
>
>
> roller balls, so if I ever needed to have a laptop, I'd buy a mouse to
> schlep along anyway.
>
I don't either but when there is nothing to put a mouse on I use the
built-in trackpad.
Snit
> In article <BC565FDC.3EA14%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Even by third parties there is no reasonable three button solution to the
>> portables, other than, of course, to carry a mouse in your case.
>
> http://www.kensington.com/html/4397.html
>
> http://www.kensington.com/html/1766.html
>
> http://www.kensington.com/html/1211.html
>
> http://www.kensington.com/html/1160.html
Of course there are mice designed for this very thing - that may make it a
bit less painful, but he would still need to carry around the mouse.
Snit
> In article <BC5667EF.3EA26%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Ditto for me. This does not, however, change the frustration I can
>> imagine people who like track pads must get over needing keyboard
>> short cuts or other workarounds when the non-primary buttons are not
>> available.
>
> All that the OS supports out of the box, so far as I know, are the left
> and right buttons and the scroll wheel--any other buttons (including the
> scroll wheel button) are accessible only with proprietary drivers.
Not true. I use the scroll wheel button often, esp. in Safari. By default
it opens links in new tabs. Love that feature. Just tried Firefox. It
does not seem to have that feature. Even though it had other features I
liked, I tossed it.
>
> I was control-clicking for contextual menus long before I got my first
> multi-button mouse; I don't consider it a big thing.
Some do. I happen to be one of them. The idea of a one button mouse is not
appealing to me. Yet, I *like* the one button standard. It is better for
many and keeps the UI better.
> I actually make more use of the thumb buttons on the Intellimouse Explorer
> than I do the right button or the scroll-wheel button.
To each their own... that is why third party mice are a good thing. :)
G.T.
> "Michelle Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote in
> michelle-EDBA03...@news.west.cox.net on 2/16/04 12:40 PM:
>
>
>>In article <BC5667EF.3EA26%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
>>Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ditto for me. This does not, however, change the frustration I can
>>>imagine people who like track pads must get over needing keyboard
>>>short cuts or other workarounds when the non-primary buttons are not
>>>available.
>>
>>All that the OS supports out of the box, so far as I know, are the left
>>and right buttons and the scroll wheel--any other buttons (including the
>>scroll wheel button) are accessible only with proprietary drivers.
>
>
> Not true. I use the scroll wheel button often, esp. in Safari. By default
> it opens links in new tabs.
Hmmm, it doesn't here for me with a basic Logitech USB mouse, 10.3.2, and
Safari 1.2.
Snit
uj9Yb.24512$_P7....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com on 2/16/04 1:00 PM:
> Snit wrote:
>> "Michelle Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote in
>> michelle-EDBA03...@news.west.cox.net on 2/16/04 12:40 PM:
>>
>>
>>> In article <BC5667EF.3EA26%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
>>> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ditto for me. This does not, however, change the frustration I can
>>>> imagine people who like track pads must get over needing keyboard
>>>> short cuts or other workarounds when the non-primary buttons are not
>>>> available.
>>>
>>> All that the OS supports out of the box, so far as I know, are the left
>>> and right buttons and the scroll wheel--any other buttons (including the
>>> scroll wheel button) are accessible only with proprietary drivers.
>>
>>
>> Not true. I use the scroll wheel button often, esp. in Safari. By default
>> it opens links in new tabs.
>
> Hmmm, it doesn't here for me with a basic Logitech USB mouse, 10.3.2, and
> Safari 1.2.
Safari 1.0.1 on OS X 10.2.8
Settings in Safari > Preferences
Tabs: Enable Tabbed Browsing
Using a Logitech USB Optical Mouse
I hope they did not remove the feature!
G.T.
Well, I have Enable Tabbed Browsing checked. Below that are:
Apple-Click: Opens a link in a new tab.
Apple-Shift-Click: Opens a link in a new tab and selects it.
Apple-Option-Click: Opens a new link in a new window behind the current one.
Apple-Option-Shift-Click: Opens a link in a new window and selects it.
Doing Apple-Click does as you describe. But clicking with my scroll wheel
button does nothing.
Snit
2kbYb.26158$3t1....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com on 2/16/04 3:17 PM:
Weird. Seems like they got rid of the functionality. Damn.
John Biltz
(in article <michelle-EDBA03...@news.west.cox.net>):
> In article <BC5667EF.3EA26%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Ditto for me. This does not, however, change the frustration I can
>> imagine people who like track pads must get over needing keyboard
>> short cuts or other workarounds when the non-primary buttons are not
>> available.
>
> All that the OS supports out of the box, so far as I know, are the left
> and right buttons and the scroll wheel--any other buttons (including the
> scroll wheel button) are accessible only with proprietary drivers.
>
> I was control-clicking for contextual menus long before I got my first
> multi-button mouse; I don't consider it a big thing. I actually make
> more use of the thumb buttons on the Intellimouse Explorer than I do the
> right button or the scroll-wheel button.
>
> -- Michelle
>
>
Actually Expose supports multibuttons in system preferences.
John Biltz
(in article <BC565E26.3EA0E%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>):
> "Chris Brown" <cpb...@ntlworld.no_uce_please.com> wrote in
> nhb7g1-...@narcissus.dyndns.org on 2/16/04 10:34 AM:
>
>> In article <BC5629CC.3E9A7%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
>> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>>> "Yeechang Lee" <yl...@pobox.com> wrote in slrnc30sk...@pobox.com on
>>> 2/16/04 12:34 AM:
>>>>
>>>> Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
>>>> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
>>>> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
>>>> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
>>>> rest of us a choice.
>>>
>>> Your assertion that your point was not understood is mistaken.
>>
>> Not IIRC. Before I simply gave up reading the previous thread, there were
>> large numbers of people explaining how he could replace the supplied
>> pointing device with a third party one. Since you cannot, in fact, do this
>> with a laptop (well, not without some major case surgery and voiding the
>> warranty), it is perfectly clear that the point was indeed misunderstood.
>
> These comments were made in relation to the desktop machines, not the
> laptops. If I am wrong, please point to to post.
You mean the earlier post that was named Linux user's thoughts on OS
X/15"Albook and crossposted to comp.sys.mac.portables about a 15" Al
Powerbook that generated 150 messages. Or this post named Linux user's
followup thoughts on OS X/12" iBook that was cross posted to
comp.sys.mac.portables about a 12" iBook.
Chris Brown
Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>
>These comments were made in relation to the desktop machines, not the
>laptops.
Given that the whole "debate" was sparked by comments about the single
button trackpad in an iBook, it seems perfectly obvious that talking about
desktop machines is missing the point. HTH.
[X11R6]
>I can certainly understand this. I would suggest getting a mini-mouse with
>the laptop if you are one of the minority of people who needs the extra
>keys. Please note that few PC notebooks have three buttons, so this is not
>a situation unique to Apple.
How many PC vendors ship X11R6 with their laptops? I suspect even fewer.
Chris Brown
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>All that the OS supports out of the box, so far as I know, are the left
>and right buttons and the scroll wheel--any other buttons (including the
>scroll wheel button) are accessible only with proprietary drivers.
Extra buttons are avialable to both Aqua (check the Expose preferences - it
starts talking about "button 4" if you have one), and X11.
>I was control-clicking for contextual menus long before I got my first
>multi-button mouse; I don't consider it a big thing.
It's irritating if you're using an X11 app where crtl-click does something
different to right-click.
Snit
> In article <BC565E26.3EA0E%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>> These comments were made in relation to the desktop machines, not the
>> laptops.
>
> Given that the whole "debate" was sparked by comments about the single
> button trackpad in an iBook, it seems perfectly obvious that talking about
> desktop machines is missing the point. HTH.
Perhaps - but that is the way almost all Usenet threads go. People often
speak very honestly and correctly about the wrong thing. :)
Snit
> In article <BC56884C.3EA56%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> Safari 1.0.1 on OS X 10.2.8
>>
>> Settings in Safari > Preferences
>>
>> Tabs: Enable Tabbed Browsing
>>
>> Using a Logitech USB Optical Mouse
>>
>> I hope they did not remove the feature!
>
> Are you sure that your mouse software isn't causing the wheel button to
> generate a command-click?
Yup. Use it on multiple computers and never have installed extra mouse
drivers on most of them.
Mike Zulauf
Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
Nope, it works as you say on my machines, both running 10.3.2 with
Safari 1.2.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazu...@met.utah.edu
Snit
mazulauf-9F0757...@nntp0.pdx.net on 2/16/04 10:35 PM:
Thanks. And whew....
G.T.
With your encouragement this time I pressed a little harder on my scroll
wheel button and it worked. I had rebooted since the last time I tried so
maybe something is jacked up with my mouse.
M.G.
> In article <slrnc30sk...@pobox.com>,
> Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
> > missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
> > thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
> > have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
> > rest of us a choice.
After reading this entire thread, I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned
Sidetrack as a solution to the OP's gripe. Can't vouch for it myself,
but it does extend trackpad functionality significantly.
<http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/20854>
<quote>
Product Description:
SideTrack is a replacement driver for the trackpad (touchpad) found on
Apple PowerBooks and iBooks. It brings many of the advanced trackpad
features found on Windows laptops to MacOS X.
SideTrack supports these features:
Vertical scrolling at left or right edge of pad.
Horizontal scrolling at top or bottom edge of pad.
Map hardware button to left or right click.
Map trackpad taps to no action, left click, left click drag (with or
without drag lock), or right click.
Compatible with uControl, including uControl's scroll emulation.
</quote>
Roger
Chris Brown <cpb...@ntlworld.no_uce_please.com> wrote:
> In article <BC5629CC.3E9A7%sn...@nospam-cableone.net>,
> Snit <sn...@nospam-cableone.net> wrote:
> >"Yeechang Lee" <yl...@pobox.com> wrote in slrnc30sk...@pobox.com on
> >2/16/04 12:34 AM:
> >>
> >> Let me repeat, since most of the Apple fanatics the last time around
> >> missed my point; I have a laptop, not a desktop. If Apple really
> >> thinks its laptop users will get confused by multiple buttons, just
> >> have them all work as the left button by default, while giving the
> >> rest of us a choice.
> >
> >Your assertion that your point was not understood is mistaken.
>
> Not IIRC. Before I simply gave up reading the previous thread, there were
> large numbers of people explaining how he could replace the supplied
> pointing device with a third party one. Since you cannot, in fact, do this
> with a laptop (well, not without some major case surgery and voiding the
> warranty), it is perfectly clear that the point was indeed misunderstood.
As was it's refutation, at least lost on certain parties. Just because
it's a laptop doesn't mean ergonomics suddenly becomes unimportant.
> As an aside, it is somewhat incongruous that Apple supply, as part of their
> system distribution, a windowing environment that assumes 3 mouse buttons
> (X11R6), but don't provide an appropriate pointing device for using it. The
> workaround sacrifices some meta keys, and is therefore not completely
> satisfactory. My Desktop Macs both have wheel mice, but using certain apps
> (e.g. Xv) on my iBook is often a frustrating affair.
Maybe Apple should produce a laptop with two or three extra keyboards as
an option, so you people won't run out of handy buttons to push. Maybe
it could be a fold-out, multi-tierd design? Sounds like you'd like
that. Good idea? Maybe a few extra trackpads embedded at strategic
points around the chasis? Why not get one of those full-body-glove
controllers, so you can dance in front of your screen and make all kinds
of groovy things happen.
hth,
Rog
Yeechang Lee
> After reading this entire thread, I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned
> Sidetrack as a solution to the OP's gripe. Can't vouch for it myself,
> but it does extend trackpad functionality significantly.
As the original poster, Sidetrack is very nice; I do indeed use it on
my iBook. But it's just not the same thing as having two or three
hardware buttons; in particular, I can't chord (press left and right
to emulate middle).
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
09:25:02 up 4 days, 17:10, 15 users, load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00
156 processes: 153 sleeping, 3 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 5.8% user 5.3% system 88.8% nice 0.0% iowait 0.0% idle
M.G.
Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
> M.G. wrote:
> > After reading this entire thread, I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned
> > Sidetrack as a solution to the OP's gripe. Can't vouch for it myself,
> > but it does extend trackpad functionality significantly.
>
> As the original poster, Sidetrack is very nice; I do indeed use it on
> my iBook. But it's just not the same thing as having two or three
> hardware buttons; in particular, I can't chord (press left and right
> to emulate middle).
When all's said and done, are you sure this is the right computer for
you?
In any case, I suspect you'll have more luck making a feature request to
the author(s) of Sidetrack than you will lobbying Apple to do something
they've never done and occasionally say they'll never do. For those of
us who use Mac OS on our Macs, second and third buttons are not
*required* for anything (except for specialized apps that are unlikely
to be used in completely mobile situations, e.g. Maya). Maybe with X11
things have shifted somewhat and Apple will eventually cave...I wouldn't
hold my breath, though.
BTW, there are also key-remapping utilities. Is it possible to map a fn
key to do what you want? It may be ergonomically suboptimal, but at
least you'll have your functionality/access to functions that require a
3rd button.
Yeechang Lee
> When all's said and done, are you sure this is the right computer for
> you?
I bought the iBook because of its combination of ruggedness, long
battery life, and good price. That doesn't mean there aren't things
I'd see changed.
> In any case, I suspect you'll have more luck making a feature
> request to the author(s) of Sidetrack than you will lobbying Apple
> to do something they've never done and occasionally say they'll
> never do.
Yeah, I know; doesn't mean I won't gripe about it, though.
> BTW, there are also key-remapping utilities. Is it possible to map a
> fn key to do what you want? It may be ergonomically suboptimal, but
> at least you'll have your functionality/access to functions that
> require a 3rd button.
That's my point. With all the talk by certain Apple fans on how a
single mouse button is "proven to be ergonomically better," "easier to
use," etc., etc., the best alternative is to use a keyboard? Sheesh.
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
14:47:01 up 4 days, 22:32, 14 users, load average: 1.06, 1.06, 1.02
165 processes: 159 sleeping, 4 running, 2 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 5.7% user 5.3% system 88.9% nice 0.0% iowait 0.0% idle
M.G.
Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > BTW, there are also key-remapping utilities. Is it possible to map a
> > fn key to do what you want? It may be ergonomically suboptimal, but
> > at least you'll have your functionality/access to functions that
> > require a 3rd button.
>
> That's my point. With all the talk by certain Apple fans on how a
> single mouse button is "proven to be ergonomically better," "easier to
> use," etc., etc., the best alternative is to use a keyboard? Sheesh.
I think you're arguing at cross-purposes. IMO, *for running Mac OS* the
single button is just fine. I've forgotten the details, but IIRC you're
running Mac OS X, but coming at it from a Linux user's perspective and
using certain apps (under X11?) that require three buttons, and also
booting into Linux sometimes.
The problem is that if you're running straight-up Mac OS (no X 11, no
booting into Linux), you're running an OS that was designed for the
single button and works just fine with it. This OS has no functionality
that *requires* the use of a second or third button, and nor do the vast
majority of apps running on it.
Since you're doing things that do require it, you're doing things that
the machine wasn't really designed for. That's why, with current and all
previous generation iBooks and Powerbooks, you're stuck making
compromises -- plugging in a mouse, with all the inconvenience implied,
or emulating the functionality with the keyboard and/or trackpad.
I have a feeling you're in a small enough minority that you won't be
seeing an integrated multi-button device for some time, if ever...
especially since the workarounds will probably seem reasonable enough to
most of the people affected.
Jason Perez
M.G. <n...@va.lid> wrote:
>In article <slrnc3fo8...@pobox.com>,
> Yeechang Lee <yl...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>
>> > BTW, there are also key-remapping utilities. Is it possible to map a
>> > fn key to do what you want? It may be ergonomically suboptimal, but
>> > at least you'll have your functionality/access to functions that
>> > require a 3rd button.
>>
>> That's my point. With all the talk by certain Apple fans on how a
>> single mouse button is "proven to be ergonomically better," "easier to
>> use," etc., etc., the best alternative is to use a keyboard? Sheesh.
>
>I think you're arguing at cross-purposes. IMO, *for running Mac OS* the
>single button is just fine. I've forgotten the details, but IIRC you're
>running Mac OS X, but coming at it from a Linux user's perspective and
>using certain apps (under X11?) that require three buttons, and also
>booting into Linux sometimes.
>
>The problem is that if you're running straight-up Mac OS (no X 11, no
>booting into Linux), you're running an OS that was designed for the
>single button and works just fine with it. This OS has no functionality
>that *requires* the use of a second or third button, and nor do the vast
>majority of apps running on it.
Sure, OS X doesn't require a 2nd button. But it sure is lots
easier to access contextual menus with a 2nd button instead of
hitting an extra key all the time.
-Jason
--
Jason Perez | "Frodo Lives!" "Gig 'em!"
Austin, TX
Roger
jas...@norton.sps.mot.com (Jason Perez) wrote:
It's also easier to hit the 2nd button when you don't want to or need to
all the time, especially on a laptop. The 2nd button is in the way.
Click-and-hold pop-up menus are better than adding extra unnecessary
junk.
Rog
Steven Fisher
Roger <ro...@roger.net> wrote:
> Click-and-hold pop-up menus are better than adding extra unnecessary
> junk.
I totally agree with this. I was once writing a viewer application on
Windows and Mac OS 8.
On Windows, it used a three button mouse. On Mac OS 8, I was able to do
all of it with a one button mouse and gestures. A click mapped to the
first button, a long click to the second button, and a drag to the third.
The result? The Mac OS interface was preferred by customers. Click, hold
or drag were easier concepts for them to use than button one, two or
three.
A single button forces developers to be smart and make interfaces
intuitive.
M.G.
YMMV; I don't mind the keyboard at all.
Just in case you didn't know, Sidetrack allows you to remap the hardware
button as a right button (trackpad tap = left-click).
John Biltz
(in article <roger-97A059....@news.east.cox.net>):
Much easier to use a second button if your at home and your cat is
sleeping on your left hand and you can't reach the keyboard with it.
There are times when it is easier to do one way and times when it is
easier to do it another. I fail to see how having a second button makes
it harder to do it when no one is forcing you to use it. Not having one
makes it harder when you want to do it that way. If I am doing word
processing I use the key board its where my hands are. If I am using
Photoshop elements chances are my hand is on the mouse not the keyboard.
If I have just rotated the image the easiest way to resize it is to right
click. But the simple truth is there is no easy apple keyboard
alternative to a scroll wheel.
Steven Fisher
John Biltz <bilt...@cox.net> wrote:
> Much easier to use a second button if your at home and your cat is
> sleeping on your left hand and you can't reach the keyboard with it.
That's a pretty contrived example... :)
Besides: That's what your nose is for.
> click. But the simple truth is there is no easy apple keyboard
> alternative to a scroll wheel.
Are we still talking about portables? If so, download Sidetrack.
R.C.
> In any case, I suspect you'll have more luck making a feature request
> to the author(s) of Sidetrack than you will lobbying Apple to do
> something they've never done and occasionally say they'll never do. For
> those of us who use Mac OS on our Macs, second and third buttons are
> not *required* for anything (except for specialized apps that are
> unlikely to be used in completely mobile situations, e.g. Maya). Maybe
> with X11 things have shifted somewhat and Apple will eventually
> cave...I wouldn't hold my breath, though.
Bad. Everyone that I talk to, from office workers to developers, are
asking for a second button. Except for one minority category - the
die-hard, long-time Mac user, but most of them aren't likely to upgrade
to MacOS X anyway since that's not "real Mac".
I personally grew up with right-click on NextStep. I find it odd to
have to go for that Ctrl keyboard key just to reach context menus.
/Rob
R.C.
> It's also easier to hit the 2nd button when you don't want to or need
> to all the time, especially on a laptop. The 2nd button is in the way.
> Click-and-hold pop-up menus are better than adding extra unnecessary
> junk.
We will never agree on this.