LocalTalk/AppleShare between IIgs and Mac LC 575 - how?
Rodney Hester
ignorant where Apple networking is concerned. :/
What I would like to accomplish is fairly simple - I'd like to be able to
share files between my Mac LC 575 and Apple IIgs via some sort of cheap
networking solution. Best I can tell, LocalTalk and AppleShare fit the bill
nicely.
What I don't know is how to go about this - I've never even seen a LocalTalk
network in my life. Having done all the reading I think I can usefully do
on the Web, I've come to the following (probably wrong) conclusions and
questions:
- I think I need some sort of "Y" cable on the IIgs side, since my printer
(ImageWriter II) is currently plugged into the printer port, where the
LocalTalk "splitter" presumably goes. (The picture I saw indicated the
printer plugs into one side of the Y, and the LocalTalk connection into the
other.) However, another site suggested that having LocalTalk enabled on
the printer port will not allow me to continue printing to the ImageWriter -
is that really the case? (If so, I suppose I can live with it, but will
simply switching the slot assignment on the GS from LocalTalk back to
Printer suffice, or do I actually have to physically unplug LocalTalk?)
- Since I don't have (and don't plan to have) a printer on the Mac, I'm
assuming I can plug the other end of the above-mentioned LocalTalk cable
directly into its port. I could be wrong, however - is some sort of "Y"
needed here as well?
- If my half-baked guesses are right, I only need two cables - the "Y" for
the IIgs and the LocalTalk cable itself. Anyone know what the *real* names
(and part numbers, if practical) of these items are so I don't look foolish
when I go to buy them?
- Once the hardware end of things is settled down, on to software...from
what I understand, it's not possible to mount the IIgs drives on the Mac,
only the reverse. Do my shared Mac folders/drives appear on the IIgs
desktop as "hard drives" or somesuch?
- What software setup is required on both machines? I am running System
7.5.5 on the Mac and GS/OS 6.0.1 on the IIgs. If I understood correctly,
the Mac has to act as an AppleShare server, and I have to have some sort of
network client on the IIgs. Can anyone provide more specifics?
- I understand that the connection will be slooooooow...I've read several
places that likened it to the speed of a floppy drive. Since that's exactly
the process I'm trying to eliminate, that suits my purposes just fine. =)
I'm also aware of the limitations of ProDOS naming conventions and other
filesystem limitations (such as no 8-bit applications run across the
network), which is fine, as all I plan to do is limited filesharing. It's
also my understanding that both HFS and ProDOS drives/folders on the Mac can
be shared...I'm assuming more than one at once. (If it is more than one, is
there a fixed or practical limit?)
- Is it strictly necessary to run a "network" as such (i.e. can I dispense
with the whole login/authentication/rights thing and just be the AppleShare
equivalent of "root" on both sides of the house)? If so, what's the _least_
configuration I can get away with? (I'm not looking to do ANYTHING fancy at
all here...I'm simply looking for AppleShare to replace SneakerNet(TM). :)
I realize I may well have opened Pandora's Box here, but there's no easier
way I can find to go about this other than just dive in. I'm sure some
people will shy away from responding because the answer is likely more
complex than I currently realize, but if some folks with good knowledge
about this stuff (even better those who have done what I seek to do) could
step in, I (and hopefully others) would benefit a great deal.
Looking forward to any education I can get,
Rodney
Byron Desnoyers Winmill
AppleTalk is really quite simple. Indeed, you should be able to test it with
your IIgs, LC575 and the printer cable from your IWII.
First, ensure that your LC575 has the file sharing software installed: go to
the "Sharing Setup" control panel, and a window with three sections ("Network
Identity", "File Sharing", and "Program Linking") should appear. If you can
not find the control panel, or the "File Sharing" section is missing, install
it! Personal file sharing is included with system 7 and later. Also make
sure AppleTalk is enabled (see the bottom right hand corner of the "Chooser"),
and it is connected to the printer port (in either the "Network" or
"AppleTalk" control panel, depending on your version of the system software).
From the "File Sharing" control panel, turn file sharing on by pressing the
"Start" button. (You can ignore "Program Linking", since that is for
something altogether different.)
Next, you have to deal with the IIgs. You have two options here: if you have
a hard drive, you can simply install the AppleTalk software to that hard
drive. If you have a floppy drive, you will have to create a custom boot
disk to access the AppleTalk network. Either way, it is done from the
installation software on the system 6.0.1 diskettes. To enable AppleTalk
on your IIgs, go to the control panels and ensure slot 1 or slot 7 is set
to AppleTalk (it depends on which version of the IIgs you have).
Connect the two computers with the IWII's printer cable, via the printer port.
Now, if memory serves me correctly, you access remote AppleShare file servers
via the GS/OS's control panels.
Other Issues:
"Y connectors" are actually dongles which allow you to daisy chain computers
on an AppleTalk network together. If memory serves me correctly: you do not
need one, but it certainly makes it more convenient to connect more than two
computers. :-) The most common type (from my experience) is called
"PhoneNet", and it will allow you to chain computers together with 4-wire
telephone cables. These are not magic bullets: they do not actually give
you two serial ports for the price of one. What this means is, in all
probability, your IWII will have to be connected via the modem port. There
are special printers which speak in the AppleTalk protocol (usually laser
printers, though you are supposed to be able to get a card for the IWII to
enable this option). Of course, if you do get an AppleTalk printer, you can
print from either your IIgs or your LC575 (and the handy part is, the printer
serves as its own print server, so only the printer and the computer you are
printing from need be turned on).
To your IIgs software, the shared drives will look like yet another drive,
and will appear on the desktop as a tray with some wires connected to it.
I forget whether the drives are accessible via ProDOS. I am almost certain
that the drives will not be available if you boot into ProDOS. (Question
for the lucky people who have FileShare v2 or v3: can you boot into ProDOS
over the network and, if so, can you see the remote drive?)
If you do not have a hard drive, and even if you do, AppleTalk won't seem
slow. It is a tool which has its purpose, and it works remarkably well!
AFAIK, it is impossible to dispense of authentication with FileShare.
However, Apple's file sharing is very open: by default, you have access to
all of the remote drive (except, maybe, as guest), and and an empty password
is fair game!
Rodney Hester (ro...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: What I would like to accomplish is fairly simple - I'd like to be able to
: share files between my Mac LC 575 and Apple IIgs via some sort of cheap
: networking solution. Best I can tell, LocalTalk and AppleShare fit the bill
: nicely.
: I realize I may well have opened Pandora's Box here,
Naw. Opening a Pandora's Box would require TCP/IP networking. ;-)
If you need any more details, just let me know. I will use any excuse to
dust off my old IIgs.
Byron.
Karl B
> I understand that the connection will be slooooooow...I've read several
> places that likened it to the speed of a floppy drive
It maxes out at about 20 kB/sec
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David Empson
> What I would like to accomplish is fairly simple - I'd like to be able to
> share files between my Mac LC 575 and Apple IIgs via some sort of cheap
> networking solution. Best I can tell, LocalTalk and AppleShare fit the bill
> nicely.
They sure do.
> What I don't know is how to go about this - I've never even seen a LocalTalk
> network in my life. Having done all the reading I think I can usefully do
> on the Web, I've come to the following (probably wrong) conclusions and
> questions:
>
> - I think I need some sort of "Y" cable on the IIgs side, since my printer
> (ImageWriter II) is currently plugged into the printer port, where the
> LocalTalk "splitter" presumably goes.
Are you using the modem port on the IIgs? If not, then you can set the
IIgs to use the modem port for AppleTalk, and leave the ImageWriter
connection intact.
If you are using the IIgs modem port, then it will be necessary to
reconfigure the computer each time you switch the printer port between
AppleTalk and the ImageWriter II.
One way to eliminate this problem would be to get hold of the LocalTalk
networking card for the ImageWriter II, in which case you can leave
AppleTalk permanently active, provided you have appropriate wiring and
always boot through GS/OS if you want to use the printer (under normal
circumstances you can't print to an AppleTalk printer on a IIgs if you
boot via ProDOS-8, but will be able to print in ProDOS-8 programs if you
boot GS/OS with the necessary drivers installed).
For the cabling you have two major options:
(a) For a temporary network connection between the two computers, you
can simply unplug the cable from the ImageWriter II and plug it into the
Mac.
(b) For a permanent LocalTalk network between the Mac, IIgs and
ImageWriter II, you will need a proper cabling system. There are two
standard cabling systems, which cannot be mixed. In both cases, you
need a "drop box" for each device on the network (three in total, in
this case), as well as two cables to connect the network in daisy-chain
fashion.
The two cabling system options are Apple's "LocalTalk" cabling system,
and the third party "PhoneNet" system (or equivalents).
Apple's LocalTalk cabling uses specially made cables to connect the drop
boxes, with Mini-Din-3 connectors. The drop boxes usually have
automatic termination, so you don't need to worry about this issue.
The PhoneNet cabling system uses standard telephone cable with RJ-11
plugs to connect the drop boxes. You must insert a termination resistor
in the unused connectors at each end of the network. (One is usually
supplied with each PhoneNet drop box.)
Back when all this was current, LocalTalk cabling was rather expensive,
and PhoneNet was relatively cheap. Nowadays you could probably get
either type second hand without paying too much.
> - Once the hardware end of things is settled down, on to software...from
> what I understand, it's not possible to mount the IIgs drives on the Mac,
> only the reverse. Do my shared Mac folders/drives appear on the IIgs
> desktop as "hard drives" or somesuch?
Correct. If you've ever used file sharing between two Macs, the process
is very similar between a Mac and IIgs (after you have the necessary
software installed on the IIgs).
On the IIgs, you use the AppleShare panel in the Control Panels NDA to
log onto the server (this is the equivalent of the Chooser item on the
Mac). After you have logged on, an icon appears on the desktop for each
server volume.
> - What software setup is required on both machines? I am running System
> 7.5.5 on the Mac and GS/OS 6.0.1 on the IIgs. If I understood correctly,
> the Mac has to act as an AppleShare server, and I have to have some sort of
> network client on the IIgs. Can anyone provide more specifics?
The Mac should have everything you need already installed.
The main steps are:
1. Enable AppleTalk. If you are using classic networking, this is done
in the Chooser. If you are using Open Transport, you should use the
AppleTalk control panel to configure and enable AppleTalk for the Mac's
printer port.
2. Go into the Sharing Setup control panel and enter a machine name,
owner name and owner password. Click on the "Start" button to turn on
file sharing. It will probably take several minutes the first time you
do this.
If you aren't concerned about security, you can use the owner name and
password to log on from the IIgs. If you'd like to set up the IIgs to
have restricted access to the Mac, you need to create a user account for
the IIgs, which is done via the Users & Groups control panel.
3. If you are going to log on to the Mac using the owner name and
password, you should be done. If you have created a user account for
the IIgs, you must also turn on sharing for the entire hard drive volume
or for one or more shared folders on the hard drive. This is done via
the "Sharing..." item in the Finder's File menu.
One final point: if you intend to access anything on the server from a
ProDOS-8 application, your server's hard drive or top level shared
folder must be limited to ProDOS-8 naming conventions (no more than 15
characters, using letters, digits and the period; in particular, no
spaces). The same rule applies to any folders or files within the
volume or shared folder which need to be accessed from ProDOS-8.
GS/OS is able to handle the full range of Macintosh filenames.
Setting up the IIgs is a little more involved, since you have to install
some software.
1. Turn on AppleTalk in the Control Panel. The precise details vary
depending on whether you have a ROM 1 or ROM 3 IIgs. For ROM 1, you
must set slot 1 to "Your Card" and slot 7 to "AppleTalk". For ROM 3,
you must set slot 1 to "AppleTalk". (If you are going to use the modem
port instead of the printer port, substitute slot 2 for slot 1 in these
instructions.)
2. Assuming you have a hard drive, boot from the System 6.0.1 Install
disk, go into the Customize option, and install the "Network:
AppleShare" item onto your hard drive's startup partition. This will
include all the software required to connect to the Mac. If you manage
to get hold of a LocalTalk card for your ImageWriter II, you should also
install the drivers for supporting network printing (I forget which item
this is in the installer).
If you don't have a hard drive, you will have much more difficulty
dealing with the network. It is possible to create a system disk on an
800K floppy which allows you to log on to the server, but in order to
fit everything onto this disk, it is necessary to remove the Finder,
which makes the machine rather difficult to manage. There is an item in
the installer which sets up a disk with this particular combination.
3. Once you have the AppleShare software installed, boot from your
updated system. During startup it will ask you to enter a user name
(for the first time only). If you are going to log onto the Mac using
the owner name, then enter the same name here, otherwise enter the name
you assigned to the account you created for the IIgs.
4. When you get to the desktop, you can log onto the Mac by going into
the Control Panels NDA (under the Apple menu) and choosing the
AppleShare item. You should see the Macintosh's machine name appear in
the list on the right side of the window. Double click on this, and you
will be presented with a login dialog.
Enter the user name and password as required, then click OK. Assuming
it was accepted, you will be presented with another dialog box which
lets you select the volumes you want to access. After getting past this
step, the icon for the Mac's hard drive (or the shared folder) should
appear on the IIgs desktop, and you can treat it just like a local
volume.
For added convenience, create an alias to the server, and use it to log
on next time. You will be prompted for the password again, but you can
get it to save the password in the alias so subsequent logons are dead
easy.
If you don't have a hard drive on the IIgs, then you won't be running
Finder, which makes it rather tricky to deal with the Mac for copying
files and similar tasks. It may be possible to install a copy of Finder
on the Mac and launch it once you've connected, or run it from a second
800K floppy (only practical if you have two 3.5" drives).
As far as the cabling goes: if you are having to switch back and forth
between the ImageWriter (without a LocalTalk card) and the AppleTalk
network, you will need to do the following steps.
To switch back to a direct printer connection:
1. Set slot 1 back to Printer Port (and on a ROM 1, also set slot 7 to
Your Card).
2. If you want to avoid two annoying error messages during startup, you
will have to disable the "SCC.Manager" file in */System/Drivers, and
"AppleShare.FST" in */System/FSTs.
3. Reboot.
To switch back to AppleTalk, reverse the above steps.
If you are using a networked ImageWriter II, you need to select the
printer through the "Network Printer" item in the Control Panel NDA.
After doing this, it should be available in all GS/OS programs, and in
most ProDOS-8 programs (by printing to the AppleTalk slot, i.e. slot 7
for a ROM 1, slot 1 for a ROM 3).
Incidentally, with a networked ImageWriter II, you will also be able to
print to it from the Mac. You may need to locate a copy of the
AppleTalk ImageWriter driver, as it hasn't been updated since System
7.1, and was no longer installed by default some time around System 7.6
or 8.0.
> - I understand that the connection will be slooooooow...I've read several
> places that likened it to the speed of a floppy drive. Since that's exactly
> the process I'm trying to eliminate, that suits my purposes just fine. =)
LocalTalk runs at 230400 bps, but you don't get to use all of the
bandwidth for data transfer. The effective transfer rate would peak at
about 20 KB per second if both machines are fast enough, though I'd
expect more typical rates in the ballpark of 10 to 15 KB per second.
An Apple II 5.25" floppy transfers raw data at 250000 bps. Once you
take out the overhead of the encoding, sector interleaving, seek times,
etc., you get an effective rate of about 11 KB per second.
An 800K 3.5" drive is about twice as fast (possibly four times as fast
in ideal conditions), so LocalTalk comes in faster than a 5.25" drive
but slower than a 3.5" drive.
Don't forget that there is added convenience of not having to shuffle
disks around - if you are transferring a large amount of data, you can
just walk away and leave the machines to it. Go for a relaxing walk.
Have a nap. Whatever. :-)
(Even 100Base-T Ethernet seems slow when you are trying to transfer
gigabytes of data. The Apple II is in a smaller world, thank goodness.)
> I'm also aware of the limitations of ProDOS naming conventions and other
> filesystem limitations (such as no 8-bit applications run across the
> network), which is fine, as all I plan to do is limited filesharing.
These limitations may not be as restrictive as you think.
Most ProDOS-8 and GS/OS applications can be launched from the server.
You are only likely to run into problems with programs like AppleWorks
which need to store data files in particular places, and even then the
problems are only likely to occur if you try to run the application from
multiple client computers.
As noted above, the naming restrictions only apply if you are running
ProDOS-8 applications.
> It's also my understanding that both HFS and ProDOS drives/folders on the
> Mac can be shared...I'm assuming more than one at once.
I don't think you can share ProDOS volumes on the Mac. You would
normally use HFS for everything.
The AppleShare protocol hides the details of the server filesystem from
the client - the IIgs is completely unaware that the Mac happens to be
using HFS. You don't even need the HFS File System Translator on the
IIgs, and ProDOS-8 won't have any trouble either, as long as you follow
the naming restrictions.
> (If it is more than one, is there a fixed or practical limit?)
Under GS/OS, there will be a maximum limit of 63 mounted volumes, though
I imagine it will get unmanageable well before this.
Under ProDOS-8, the limit is hard to define. You should be able to have
a total of around 14 volumes, either local or mounted from the server
(the limit may be a little lower depending on the number of units in
each slot). In some cases, you might be able to access more than this.
In the majority of cases, it would be rare to have more than one or two
server volumes mounted (e.g. the hard drive and a removable device such
as a CD-ROM or Zip disk).
> - Is it strictly necessary to run a "network" as such (i.e. can I dispense
> with the whole login/authentication/rights thing and just be the AppleShare
> equivalent of "root" on both sides of the house)?
Logging in as the owner will bypass all the sharing settings on the Mac,
giving you full access to all mounted volumes, so this will reduce the
number of steps required to set up the Mac.
Setting up an alias as described above makes the login process very easy
after you've done it once. If the Mac is on most of the time, you can
even get the IIgs to mount a volume automatically as it boots - there is
an option for this in the volume selection dialog.
You can't completely bypass the login mechanism.
> I realize I may well have opened Pandora's Box here, but there's no easier
> way I can find to go about this other than just dive in. I'm sure some
> people will shy away from responding because the answer is likely more
> complex than I currently realize, but if some folks with good knowledge
> about this stuff (even better those who have done what I seek to do) could
> step in, I (and hopefully others) would benefit a great deal.
Been there, done it, bought the T-Shirt. :-)
(I've now dismantled the network, as I'm not using the IIgs on a regular
basis, and it is a hassle dealing with a mixed Ethernet/LocalTalk
network, especially as my 7600's modem port was damaged and I'm using
the printer port to connect to my modem.)
Rodney Hester
news:1eunn3p.110ft3vayx3fqN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
>
> Are you using the modem port on the IIgs? If not, then you can set the
> IIgs to use the modem port for AppleTalk, and leave the ImageWriter
> connection intact.
I'm currently using the modem port for my Focus hard drive and have the
printer port dedicated to AppleTalk, for complex reasons I won't bore the
group with. =)
> One way to eliminate this problem would be to get hold of the LocalTalk
> networking card for the ImageWriter II, in which case you can leave
> AppleTalk permanently active, provided you have appropriate wiring and
> always boot through GS/OS if you want to use the printer (under normal
> circumstances you can't print to an AppleTalk printer on a IIgs if you
> boot via ProDOS-8, but will be able to print in ProDOS-8 programs if you
> boot GS/OS with the necessary drivers installed).
This is precisely what I plan to do, because of the added benefit to the Mac
(well, that and the lack of slot convenience ;).
> For the cabling you have two major options:
>
> (a) For a temporary network connection between the two computers, you
> can simply unplug the cable from the ImageWriter II and plug it into the
> Mac.
I am currently running this way and it works very well.
> (b) For a permanent LocalTalk network between the Mac, IIgs and
> ImageWriter II, you will need a proper cabling system. There are two
> standard cabling systems, which cannot be mixed. In both cases, you
> need a "drop box" for each device on the network (three in total, in
> this case), as well as two cables to connect the network in daisy-chain
> fashion.
I'm a bit confused - if I don't need drop boxes for direct-connect, why are
they necessary for each node? I figured it would be enough to have the
LocalTalk Connector Kit "Y" cable on the GS, with direct connects from it to
the Mac and the ImageWriter (with the LocalTalk card). That in and of
itself is not a terribly expensive solution, but *3* connector kits would be
a little more imposing.
> Apple's LocalTalk cabling uses specially made cables to connect the drop
> boxes, with Mini-Din-3 connectors. The drop boxes usually have
> automatic termination, so you don't need to worry about this issue.
Ah - so the connectors on the "Y" aren't DIN-8? I can't understand why. :/
Termination shouldn't be an issue anyway, I'd think - wouldn't the internal
LocalTalk connectors on each device suffice?
> Back when all this was current, LocalTalk cabling was rather expensive,
> and PhoneNet was relatively cheap. Nowadays you could probably get
> either type second hand without paying too much.
So far the pricing I've gotten is around $7 for a single LocalTalk connector
kit.
> Incidentally, with a networked ImageWriter II, you will also be able to
> print to it from the Mac. You may need to locate a copy of the
> AppleTalk ImageWriter driver, as it hasn't been updated since System
> 7.1, and was no longer installed by default some time around System 7.6
> or 8.0.
Ah - any pointers on this? I'm running System 7.5.5 (started at 7.5, then
upped to 7.5.3R2, then 7.5.5). Will do some web searching.
> I don't think you can share ProDOS volumes on the Mac. You would
> normally use HFS for everything.
You're absolutely right - I tried. :)
Thank you for your very helpful reply!
Rodney
David Empson
> "David Empson" <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
> news:1eunn3p.110ft3vayx3fqN%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
> >
> > Are you using the modem port on the IIgs? If not, then you can set the
> > IIgs to use the modem port for AppleTalk, and leave the ImageWriter
> > connection intact.
>
> I'm currently using the modem port for my Focus hard drive and have the
> printer port dedicated to AppleTalk, for complex reasons I won't bore the
> group with. =)
I've never heard of a Focus hard drive being plugged into the modem
port. Perhaps you mean that you have the card installed in slot 2? :-)
If you have a ROM 1 IIgs, this won't be a problem - as long as you have
slot 1 set to "Printer port", slot 2 to "Your card" and slot 7 to
"AppleTalk", you will be able to plug the AppleTalk network into the
modem port, and you can leave the ImageWriter connected to the printer
port. Your Focus card will continue to work perfectly OK.
If you have a ROM 3 IIgs, you won't be able to use the modem port for
AppleTalk unless you move the Focus card to a different slot. (Slot 2
must be set to "AppleTalk", not "Your Card".)
> > (b) For a permanent LocalTalk network between the Mac, IIgs and
> > ImageWriter II, you will need a proper cabling system. There are two
> > standard cabling systems, which cannot be mixed. In both cases, you
> > need a "drop box" for each device on the network (three in total, in
> > this case), as well as two cables to connect the network in daisy-chain
> > fashion.
>
> I'm a bit confused - if I don't need drop boxes for direct-connect, why are
> they necessary for each node?
The serial ports use RS-422, and electrically they operate in a
push/pull fashion, i.e. sourcing or sinking current depending on whether
the output voltage is high or low (it uses signal levels of about +4.5V
and -4.5V).
You cannot use a simple "wire-or" technique to connect multiple
push/pull devices together, because if the lines are outputting
different signal levels they will source or sink more current than they
are designed for. This may damage the driver chip (they are usually
designed to cope with it) but it nearly always prevents communication.
The computer is able to control whether the transmit output is active,
but when inactive I think it just clamps the output to ground, which
won't help.
The other part of the equation is that there are separate transmit and
receive data signals. The printer cable is actually a cross-over
arrangement, so the transmit output of each device goes to the receive
input of the other device.
If you are connecting two devices on your network, then they can only
communicate with each other, so the cross-over cable arrangement works
fine.
If you want to connect more than two devices, you would need to come up
with some arrangement whereby the transmit output of each device goes to
the receive inputs of all other devices, while at the same time not
directly wiring the transmit outputs together for electrical reasons.
The drop boxes achieve just this. They contain a transformer which
provides an electrically isolated connection between the transmit output
of each device and the LocalTalk/PhoneNET network. The network itself
is just a neutral electrical loop, in the form of a twisted pair with
termination resistors connecting the pair at each end.
Whenever the transmit output of any device undergoes a voltage
transition, it will induce a signal on the network, which is then
distributed to the receive input of all devices.
An inactive transmitter has a steady state output, so it won't interfere
with the network.
(The transformers also provide the benefit of avoiding issues such as
requiring a common ground and related issues such as ground current
loops.)
When the serial ports are being used for AppleTalk, and are actively
transmitting, they use a data encoding technique called FM, which has a
clock transition for each bit, and an additional transiting for a
particular bit value (I think it is for a zero bit in this case, but I'd
have to look it up to confirm this).
An active transmitter therefore causes one or two transitions on the
network for each bit cell.
The maximum rate of signal transitions is twice the data rate, i.e.
LocalTalk/PhoneNET runs at a maximum data rate of 230400 bps, but is
actually 560800 baud.
There is still a problem with collisions between transmitters, which
will result in corrupted data arriving at the receivers, but it doesn't
run the risk of electrically damaging anything. The LocalTalk protocol
layer within the AppleTalk protocol stack deals with filtering out any
corrupted data (avoiding collisions as much as possible), and higher
layer protocols are responsible for retransmitting any data which might
have been lost.
> > Back when all this was current, LocalTalk cabling was rather expensive,
> > and PhoneNet was relatively cheap. Nowadays you could probably get
> > either type second hand without paying too much.
>
> So far the pricing I've gotten is around $7 for a single LocalTalk connector
> kit.
That is an improvement. When I bought my PhoneNET connectors (actually
another brand which is compatible with PhoneNET, and has LEDs to
indicate network activity), they cost about NZ$50 each, while a
LocalTalk connector kit would have been more like NZ$150. (Halve these
numbers to get approximate US dollars.)
> > Incidentally, with a networked ImageWriter II, you will also be able to
> > print to it from the Mac. You may need to locate a copy of the
> > AppleTalk ImageWriter driver, as it hasn't been updated since System
> > 7.1, and was no longer installed by default some time around System 7.6
> > or 8.0.
>
> Ah - any pointers on this? I'm running System 7.5.5 (started at 7.5, then
> upped to 7.5.3R2, then 7.5.5). Will do some web searching.
If it isn't installed as part of the system, I'd expect to find it as an
optional item in the System 7.5.3 installer (I'm pretty sure it wasn't
removed until at least 7.6). If you get hold of the "TomeViewer"
application from Apple, you can extract it manually from the
installation tome without having to run the installer.
You may also be able to download the driver directly from Apple's
software updates site. (TomeViewer is there somewhere as well, though
it might be on the developer site rather than the general software
update site.)
David. E. Goble
><ro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Forgive me, for am I not only somewhat Apple illiterate, I am *totally*
>ignorant where Apple networking is concerned. :/
>
Do not worry, we all started there :>
>
>What I would like to accomplish is fairly simple - I'd like to be able to
>share files between my Mac LC 575 and Apple IIgs via some sort of cheap
>networking solution. Best I can tell, LocalTalk and AppleShare fit the bill
>nicely.
>
Correct
>
>- I think I need some sort of "Y" cable on the IIgs side, since my printer
>(ImageWriter II) is currently plugged into the printer port, where the
>LocalTalk "splitter" presumably goes. (The picture I saw indicated the
>printer plugs into one side of the Y, and the LocalTalk connection into the
>other.) However, another site suggested that having LocalTalk enabled on
>the printer port will not allow me to continue printing to the ImageWriter -
>is that really the case? (If so, I suppose I can live with it, but will
>simply switching the slot assignment on the GS from LocalTalk back to
>Printer suffice, or do I actually have to physically unplug LocalTalk?)
>
All you need is the printer cable, to get you started. As appletalk
uses the same cable (8pin Mini Din). The IIgs has two ports (printer
and modem ports), both can be set to appletalk or printer. So you can
have your printer connected to one and have the other for appletalk.
I assume the (Apple talk kit) "Y" adapter is for connecting more than
two computers together, using the phoneline cables (RJ somethings).
>
>- Once the hardware end of things is settled down, on to software...from
>what I understand, it's not possible to mount the IIgs drives on the Mac,
>only the reverse. Do my shared Mac folders/drives appear on the IIgs
>desktop as "hard drives" or somesuch?
>
I am not sure on this. I have only mounted entire harddrive
partitions. These show up on the IIgs desktop as harddrive icons (HFS
partititions) or floppy drive icons (PRODOS partitions).
>.
>- What software setup is required on both machines? I am running System
>7.5.5 on the Mac and GS/OS 6.0.1 on the IIgs. If I understood correctly,
>the Mac has to act as an AppleShare server, and I have to have some sort of
>network client on the IIgs. Can anyone provide more specifics?
>
Simply install the appletalk options from the install disks. From
memory...; On the Mac, appletalk and filesharing. On the IIgs, if you
do not have a harddrive, you can create a appletalk boot disk. This
will allow you to have your system 6.0.1 software on a PRODOS
partition of your mac. With the Mac running, appletalk active and
filesharing enabled, the appletalk boot disk will boot up the IIgs
then lauch system 6.0.1 off the mac.
>
>- I understand that the connection will be slooooooow...I've read several
>places that likened it to the speed of a floppy drive. Since that's exactly
>the process I'm trying to eliminate, that suits my purposes just fine. =)
>I'm also aware of the limitations of ProDOS naming conventions and other
>filesystem limitations (such as no 8-bit applications run across the
>network), which is fine, as all I plan to do is limited filesharing. It's
>also my understanding that both HFS and ProDOS drives/folders on the Mac can
>be shared...I'm assuming more than one at once. (If it is more than one, is
>there a fixed or practical limit?)
>
I assume there would be a limit on the number of drives/partitions,
but do not know it.
>
>- Is it strictly necessary to run a "network" as such (i.e. can I dispense
>with the whole login/authentication/rights thing and just be the AppleShare
>equivalent of "root" on both sides of the house)? If so, what's the _least_
>configuration I can get away with? (I'm not looking to do ANYTHING fancy at
>all here...I'm simply looking for AppleShare to replace SneakerNet(TM). :)
>
From memory, I think you do need a username and some sort of password,
the password can be as simple as a single character.
>
>I realize I may well have opened Pandora's Box here, but there's no easier
>way I can find to go about this other than just dive in. I'm sure some
>people will shy away from responding because the answer is likely more
>complex than I currently realize, but if some folks with good knowledge
>about this stuff (even better those who have done what I seek to do) could
>step in, I (and hopefully others) would benefit a great deal.
>
If you do a search on the achieves you will find heaps of info, esp;
at apple's tech web site.
Have fun... :>
Rodney Hester
news:3b20d7b8...@news.adelaide.on.net...
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:07:49 -0400, "Rodney Hester"
> ><ro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >- Once the hardware end of things is settled down, on to software...from
> >what I understand, it's not possible to mount the IIgs drives on the Mac,
> >only the reverse. Do my shared Mac folders/drives appear on the IIgs
> >desktop as "hard drives" or somesuch?
> >
> I am not sure on this. I have only mounted entire harddrive
> partitions. These show up on the IIgs desktop as harddrive icons (HFS
> partititions) or floppy drive icons (PRODOS partitions).
How do you do this? I've successfully mounted HFS folders on the IIgs at
this point, but I am unable to get the Mac (running System 7.5.5) to share a
ProDOS partition or folder at all.
Rodney
Gary Gouriluk
first. It was on Apple's site at one time.
Gary
David Empson
> Rodney Hester wrote:
> > "David. E. Goble" <goble@gtech> wrote in message
> > news:3b20d7b8...@news.adelaide.on.net...
> > > partitions. These show up on the IIgs desktop as harddrive icons (HFS
> > > partititions) or floppy drive icons (PRODOS partitions).
> >
> > How do you do this? I've successfully mounted HFS folders on the IIgs at
> > this point, but I am unable to get the Mac (running System 7.5.5) to share a
> > ProDOS partition or folder at all.
> I believe you need to install the prodos filesystem extension onto the mac
> first. It was on Apple's site at one time.
System 7.5 has PC Exchange, which incorporates the ProDOS file system
extension.
In order to run the older extension, you would have to disable PC
Exchange, and might have to run an older system version as well.
I'd be surprised if the ProDOS file system extension would allow you to
share a ProDOS partition.
If the Mac was to share a ProDOS partition, its File Sharing extension
would need to be able to cope with the different naming restrictions of
a ProDOS partition. The AppleShare protocol assumes that the host file
system is much more flexible than ProDOS.
It might be possible to share a FAT (MS-DOS) partition, because there
are tricks which Apple can pull to implement most of the features of an
HFS volume on a FAT volume. The same does not apply in the case of a
ProDOS volume. (Resource forks and Mac file type/creator information
can be stored by using extended files, but the name restrictions cannot
be bypassed.) Sharing a read-only foreign file system such as an
ISO-9660 CD-ROM should also be possible.
I expect that the File Sharing extension checks for known file systems
or those with acceptable characteristics before letting you share them.
An earlier version of this extension might have been more flexible, in
which case I'd expect strange errors to occur if you tried to use an
illegal filename on a shared ProDOS volume.
Gary Gouriluk
The reason for my confusion was that I had the ProDos File System Extension
installed on my mac because I replaced Apple's CD ROM extension with the FWB CD-ROM
Toolkit. I needed to use FWB to see all partitions on the Golden Orchard CD-ROM (6
HFS and 1 Prodos) and share them with my IIgs (I had no CD on my IIgs). At that
time I needed that ProDos File Sharing Extension to see the ProDos partition... but
I failed to remember that I had to copy that partition to an HFS volume in order to
share it with my IIgs. Apologies for my faulty memory.
I can only add that the old extension co-existed harmlessly on my macs when they
upgraded to 7.5.5. I suppose Apple checks for this and ignores the unnecessary
extension.
Gary
David Empson wrote:
David. E. Goble
<ro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>How do you do this? I've successfully mounted HFS folders on the IIgs at
>this point, but I am unable to get the Mac (running System 7.5.5) to share a
>ProDOS partition or folder at all.
>
OK, I seem to be wrong. I just tried to share one of my MacSE's Prodos
partitions on my powerbook1400cs. It did not show up on the powerbook.
I was thinking of PC exchange and also the fact you can run system
6.0.1 off a Mac's Prodos partition to run your IIgs. That is if the
IIgs is booted with an Appletalk boot floppy. How does this work if
Macs can not share Prodos partitions?
Jonathyn Bet'nct
"David. E. Goble" <goble@gtech> wrote in message
> I was thinking of PC exchange and also the fact you can run system
> 6.0.1 off a Mac's Prodos partition to run your IIgs. That is if the
> IIgs is booted with an Appletalk boot floppy. How does this work if
> Macs can not share Prodos partitions?
They don't. They share HFS partitions. The IIgs has no idea whatsoever of
what file system it is booting off of; all it knows is that it is booting
off an AppleTalk network. AppleTalk has its _own_ file system that is
completely platform independent.
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william strutts
based network. They don't share file formats but the
machine serving the files sends the files in the protocol
of the network hence a Mac would serve the files
in an Appletalk format and the IIgs would understand
the Appletalk protocol due to the software installed.
--
--
William R. Strutts - wrstr...@home.com - Whatever!
C'est moi! http://www.facelink.com/wrstrutts
Just hacking away...
"Jonathyn Bet'nct" <jonr...@napanet.net> wrote in message
news:3b257fcc_4@newsfeeds...
David. E. Goble
<jonr...@napanet.net> wrote:
>
>...run system 6.0.1 off a Mac's Prodos partition to run your IIgs.
>
>They don't. They share HFS partitions. The IIgs has no idea whatsoever of
>what file system it is booting off of; all it knows is that it is booting
>off an AppleTalk network. AppleTalk has its _own_ file system that is
>completely platform independent.
>
partitiion, for the IIgs to run the finder. I should try these things
out before opening my big mouth with guesses from memory :>