Syquest-based drives?
Jeff Sullivan
What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various
45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman
just dropped their price to $799. How is that?
jas
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer
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Peter Arrgh Korn
>
>What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various
>45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman
>just dropped their price to $799. How is that?
I *just* unpacked and started playing with my $799 Ehman/Syquest 44 Meg
removable. Here are my comments, in no particular order...
> Reasonably fast (2.8 to 4.6 MBaud/sec. transfer rates using SCSI Evaluator).
> Fairly quiet (ie: not as loud as my Mac II which has a custom fan that
makes is about as quiet as a Mac SE). It has a higher pitch whine than
the MacII; I can definitely tell when it is on and a disk is inserted
and spinning. Most of the noise comes from the drive mechanism (the
tiny fan is inaudible over the noise of the MacII), so I doubt that
the Ehman will be any noisier than any other Syquest drive.
> Shoddy documentation (they provide two programs that can format the disks,
and don't make it clear which to use [two separate manuals, one for each
program; one of which spends most of it's time explaining the Finder!]).
> Poor support - it's a good thing I have a speaker phone as I've been put
on hold for almost 5 minutes, only to have someone come on and ask who I'm
holding for & if I've been helped prior to another 3 minute wait.
> I'm not thrilled with their DB-25 SCSI connectors, but the cable they provide
is short enough, well-insulated enough, that it should do.
> The disks (as shipped from Ehman; perhaps they come this way from Syquest?)
are pre-formatted with an interleave of 2. Needless to say, I had to
reformat it to an interleave of 1 for my MacII. Their documentation tells
you to avoid formatting at all costs, and that you shouldn't need to
format the disks b/c they come pre-formatted. SCSI Evaluator results on
a MacII with the interleave set to 2 as shipped range from 1.9 MBaud/sec.
to 3.2 MBaud/sec. [roughly; these are from memory]).
> With companies they try to get terms (at least the West Coast salesperson),
and this wound up delaying the rush order by over a week when we told them
we were happy with COD.
> After running for 8 hours straight in a 'room temperature' office (~65
degrees or so), the metal casing of the drive was cool, if not downright
cold. The disk itself (or rather the plastic casing) was not as cool
as the metal casing, but not yet warm to the touch. After a few days
of continuous running I'll have better data.
Summary preliminary conclusions (and other obfuscatory oxymorons):
The hardware looks good thus far; the docs. are very poor, as is the company
thus far. For a savings of $200 that's maybe worth it. The *real* question
of hardware reliability will take longer to answer. Anyone else out there
with data on Ehman Syquest drive reliability?
Peter Korn
--
Peter "Arrgh" Korn
ko...@mica.Berkeley.EDU
{decvax,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses,usenix}!ucbvax!mica!korn
William M. Bumgarner
a deal for educational purchasers.
As far as performance goes, I have set up quite a few Syquest based systems
(all Microtech), and have never heard of a complaint or problem. The
42 (formatted)meg cartridges seem to be very reliable and fairly fast.
MicroTech's warranties are very reasonable and their service department
seemed responsive (I had a few random questions at one point in time).
b.bum
wb...@andrew.cmu.edu
William M. Bumgarner
company to work with.
Micortech will usually drop the price on their drives to $850-$950 if you
give them a call. For the 2 year warranty (hardware)/1 year warranty
(cartridge), usable software, and very helpful service; it might be worth
the extra cash.
BTW: the MicroTech drive is very quiet; you can tell it is running, but
it is far from disturbing.
b.bum
wb...@andrew.cmu.edu
Jeff Chiu
compared to say diskless SE (good), SE with internal HD (OK),
or SE with the old fan (very noisy like my CMS-60 jet engine)?
Jeff C.
--
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jc...@se-sd.sandiego.ncr.com
(uunet or att)!ncrlnk!ncr-sd!se-sd!jchiu
ucsd!se-sd!jchiu
Richard Vernon Ford
A friend of mine and I researched SyQuest drives earlier this semester, looking
at both Ehman and Microtech. Microtech had the superior reputation, but we
investigated Ehman as well. Ehman made us wait along time on the phone when we
were looking for information about their product, we got the impression their
service/tech support dept is very small. We weren't impressed talking to their
rep. They didn't do anything to dissuade our pro-Microtech leanings.
Because we were college students, Microtech offered to drop their price into the$850/$950 range, and in addition threw in a terminator and all cables we needed
We didn't ever have to wait long on the phone to talk to someone there, they
delivered the equipment promptly as promised and it has run reliably for the
past 2 months.
I haven't used their backup or other software enough to comment. It won't wow
you, but has the reputation of being superior to Ehmans.
Microtech got two sales from us. I hope they keep up the good work.
-Richard Ford
Jude Anand George
> Micortech will usually drop the price on their drives to $850-$950 if you
> give them a call. For the 2 year warranty (hardware)/1 year warranty
> (cartridge), usable software, and very helpful service; it might be worth
> the extra cash.
I purchased an R45 & disk for $850 over the summer, in a 2-person group deal.
However, when my drive showed up, it wouldn't read! It would just
flash an "SOS" error code on the red and green indicator lights. So I
sent it back and asked them to fix it. But when they got it, they
called me and said there was nothing wrong with it! And sure enough,
when I got it back, it worked fine. Now, I would just write this off
to luck, but I remember that someone had earlier posted on the net (or
was it at CMU?) that exactly the same thing happened to them! Perhaps
Microtech is fixing the drives, and refuses to let us believe that
they were faulty in the first place.
Since then, though, I've had absolutely no problem with it. People
have also questioned whether it can be left on indefinitely and used
as primary storage. Well, I've had mine on continuously, usually with
the same disk in it, for 2 months now.
> BTW: the MicroTech drive is very quiet; you can tell it is running, but
> it is far from disturbing.
I agree... I can't hear it at all with my Mac II running, except on a
read or write.
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Jim Wright
drive and a single cartridge. The dual is particularly bad with
respect to cooling. If left on for more than about 10 hours, it
overheats and refuses to recognize cartridges when inserted. The
cartridges are markedly warm when removed after as little as an hour.
The power supplies are rotten. One (of the two) p/s in the dual
died. With much arm-twisting, they sent a replacement. The
replacement is marginally better (i.e. it'll run the drive, usually).
The dual is about 18 months old; certainly out of warranty. The p/s
on the single died within 2 weeks of arrival. It's been gone for
three weeks now for repairs. Not a peep from them about it yet.
Their service is not inspiring. Our work *requires* the daily use
of these drives. Being down is unacceptable. That's why we got the
dual, and then the additional single--for reliability. Hah. With
half of the dual working, we could still limp along. I verified
the p/s as faulty. They would not send a replacement, which we were
willing to fully pay for. It took about a week and a dozen calls
to finally get them to ship it. They refused to send schematics,
but this isn't out of line with other companies' policies.
The documentation is written for about a third grade level. They
really give no useful information. I don't care if a manual has
five chapters of hand-holding, but I want at least an appendix with
some meat to it. I can't really comment on the software, since I
have little basis for comparison. My feeling is that the software
is above average. You can password protect volumes, partition
cartridges into volumes, etc. I don't use this, though.
From the sound of others' replies, our next units will be from
MicroTech.
--
Jim Wright
jwr...@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu
ISR group account
I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about
a month now and there've been no problems except that when it came, two of
the screws which hold the top of the case onto the bottom were missing.
Not in the box, Not in the drive, Not on the floor. They, at one time, had
been screwed into the case, since I could see the marks. (self-tapping
sheet metal screws). I didn't bother calling them about it.
The software supports partitioning and password protecting and selecting
various desktop icons. The manual's content is ok, physically it's just
8x11 laserprinted on heavy paper with a extra heavy cover page stapled together
Soundwise, I can't hear it over a Mac II except when it spins up.
It has two 50pin connectors, 3' cable, external DIP switches for ID.
One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when
the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but
if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run
something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it.
(The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this)
I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one.
Jasmine Megafloppies (Ack, Ack, ptoo!)[Anyone want to buy a pair of 'em]
don't have this problem - they mount when inserted.
All in all, it works fine, and is fast - the software recognizes your
machine and defaults to the optimal formatting for it, though you can
change it if you want.
Mike
--
Mike Schechter, Institute for Sensory Research, Syracuse Univ.
InterNet: i...@rodan.syr.edu mssc...@rodan.syr.edu Bitnet: SENSORY@SUNRISE
Jude Anand George
> I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about
> One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when
> the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but
> if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run
> something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it.
> (The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this)
> I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one.
This is not true of Microtech or PLI drives. An INIT is provided that
polls the drive every second for insertions, similar to how the Mac ROMs
poll the floppy drive.
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James Macak
"Arrgh" Korn) writes:
>In <10...@venera.isi.edu>, j...@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) said:
>>
>>What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various
>>45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman
>
>removable. Here are my comments, in no particular order...
>> Reasonably fast (2.8 to 4.6 MBaud/sec. transfer rates using SCSI
Evaluator).
>Summary preliminary conclusions (and other obfuscatory oxymorons):
>The hardware looks good thus far; the docs. are very poor, as is the company
>thus far. For a savings of $200 that's maybe worth it. The *real* question
>of hardware reliability will take longer to answer. Anyone else out there
>with data on Ehman Syquest drive reliability?
>Peter Korn
Our Macintosh users group recently purchased the Ehman Syquest-based 44 meg
removable drive. It has been running on a BBS for about a month now with
no major problems I can attribute to the drive, save for one. (See below.)
I agree with Peter's comments about the drive... reasonably fast, not _too_
noisy, adeqaute cable, etc.
A couple of additions I'd make: the Ehman-written docs are apparently for
their non-removable hard drives, as is their utilities disk. (Before I
realized this I had tried to install SCSI drivers from the Ehman disk with
very poor results.)
The other docs I received were from Software Architects, as was the other disk
of utilities. Theirs is the SCSI installer to use, in my experience.
Ehman did include an insert that claims they are working on their own docs for
the removable drive.
Now, the problem. I had the BBS up and running one evening when the power
went out. Later it came on but went off and on a few more times. The Mac and
Ehman drive went through a few such power outages.
Within a couple of days, the BBS had crashed and the cause was apparently bad
disk blocks on the removable drive. I tested the drive and found some 17 bad
blocks. (I had tested the drive when it was first received and it was OK.)
I am tempted to assume that the power outages somehow caused the bad blocks to
appear. My conjecture is that the Syquest based drives do not have a head
park on power down/out, and the drive head skidded across the disk, damaging
some blocks.
Is this correct? Do the heads indeed _not_ auto-park on power loss for the
Syquest drives? Or am I left with no explanation for the sudden appearance of
the bad blocks? Inquiring minds want to know!
Jim
--
ma...@lakesys.lakesys.com (James Macak)
<< All my own opinions. >>
William M. Bumgarner
cartridges out.
More likely, was when the power went out, the drive was writing information...
or a power surge hit the head, causing a random write.
b.bum
Dave Platt
>A couple of additions I'd make: the Ehman-written docs are apparently for
>their non-removable hard drives, as is their utilities disk. (Before I
>realized this I had tried to install SCSI drivers from the Ehman disk with
>very poor results.)
>
>The other docs I received were from Software Architects, as was the other disk
>of utilities. Theirs is the SCSI installer to use, in my experience.
>
>Ehman did include an insert that claims they are working on their own docs for
>the removable drive.
Hmmm. Have you tested other installers, with other drivers?
The reason I ask, is that I tested out a version of the Software
Architects installer/driver a year or so ago, during the great "System
6.0 breaks third-party disk drivers" debacle. I was having some trouble
with the driver for my Rodime-based hard disk; the vendor from whom I
had purchased the drive provided me with a loaner-copy of the Software
Architects driver.
I liked the user-interface of the installer... it's quite flexible and
effective. The disk-partitioning feature worked as advertised.
However, after reformatting and restoring my files, I was struck by how
SLOW the drive had become. Most operations seemed to require almost
twice as long as before, and the drive seemed to spend more time
chattering.
I'm not certain why the slowdown occurred. My primary suspicion is that
the Software Architects driver was doing relatively small data
transfers... perhaps only one block at a time... and wasn't keeping up
with the disk. It's also possible that the driver was using handshake
transfers rather than blind transfers, and wasn't able to keep up with
the disk at the 1:1 interleave suggested by the installer/formatter.
A few weeks later, I received a 6.0-compatible installer directly from
Rodime, and tried it out. It wasn't quite as fast as the original
(OEM-vendor-specific) driver, but was _much_ faster than the Software
Architects driver... so I've been using it ever since.
I don't know whether the poor performance of the SA driver was specific
to Rodime drives, whether it would appear on a Syquest-based drive, or
whether the drivers have been updated or rewritten for better
performance (I wouldn't be surprised... it has been over a year).
I'd be very interested to see the results of a read/write/seek
comparison (SCSI Evaluator, for example) between different Syquest-based
drives, using different manufacturers' drivers. Has anybody run this
sort of comparison?
--
Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805
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Mark Bryant
> compared to say diskless SE (good), SE with internal HD (OK),
> or SE with the old fan (very noisy like my CMS-60 jet engine)?
--
Mark Bryant via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!382!54!Mark.Bryant
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Scott Truesdell
>i...@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( ISR group account) writes:
>> I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about
>[..]
>> One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when
>> the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but
>> if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run
>> something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it.
>> (The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this)
>> I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one.
>This is not true of Microtech or PLI drives. An INIT is provided that
>polls the drive every second for insertions, similar to how the Mac ROMs
>poll the floppy drive.
Charles McConnathy, president of MicroNet, chose to not have an INIT
for two reasons: (1) general INIT proliferation and attendant
conflicts, and (2) the performance hit of polling the bus.
If a cartridge is in during boot, its driver will install itself and
recogize when fresh cartridges are inserted. Personally, I use
Steinberg's "Mount 'Em" Fkey. Optionally, SCSI Tools or SCSI Probe
cdevs will work also, but these are slower than Mount'Em.
--scott
--
Scott Truesdell
Gregory James
then, ownership has been a mixed bag.
Like the fellow with the Mass Micro system, my Turbo 40 was very prone
to overheating, and it had the annoying tendency to crash about once
per month, requiring software repair. There has never been a hard
crash.
In June, this condition became unacceptable, so I had to ship it back
to California. They took an unacceptably long time to repair it,
and then goofed up the shipping back -twice- despite the fact that
I told them specifically how to avoid problems (avoid UPS and put
the proper customs documents on the outside).
That aside, the drive now works -very- well, except that if you forget
to turn it on before you boot your Mac, you have to re-boot, and the
fact that it is noisy as Hell. As soon as I get a new desk I'm sticking
this sucker in a drawer or something.
I have also had experience with Ehman Engineering. I ordered a drive
for a friend (I was the one with the MasterCard). They obeyed my
instructions about UPS, and the drive arrived promptly. It formatted
fine, and we found the documentation and software acceptable.
Greg James
gr...@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
Jeff Sullivan
I have a question about the Mass microsystems DataPak 40. Why must it
be turned on for my Mac II with an internal HD (the startup) to boot
and shut down? Is the disk not erminated correctly, or is this the
normal modus operandi? What a bummer.
Jerome Bordier
>
>What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various
>45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman
>just dropped their price to $799. How is that?
>
And what about Cutting Edge 45MB removable hard drive ?
($995 MacWAREHOUSE price in November MacWorld).
--
Jerome BORDIER Laboratoire de Structures Discretes et de Didactique
IMAG B.P. 53 X 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex FRANCE
E.Mail:
INTERNET: bor...@imag.Fr UUCP: bordier@imag (uunet.uu.net!imag!bordier)
Jerome Bordier
Brion Johnson
for 3 months now and I like it.
Brion
Lloyd Lim
>What is the price of cartridges ?
I saw a couple of ads in MacWeek that advertised $79 cartridges. I bought one
and it seems fine. The cartridge is straight from Syquest - no other company's
labels or anything. That was a few weeks ago so the current price may be
different.
Since I know the next reply will be "I don't have MacWeek what's the phone
number?", here they are:
Third Wave Computing, Austin, Texas
800-284-0486
Maya Computer, Waitsfield, Vermont
800-541-2318
Both advertise for $79.
+++
Lloyd Lim Internet: l...@iris.ucdavis.edu (128.120.57.20)
Compuserve: 72647,660
US Mail: 146 Lysle Leach Hall, U.C. Davis, Davis, CA 95616