Marathon 1.1 SUCKS!
Thomas Samson
>MARATHON V1.0-->V1.1 UPDATER RELEASE NOTES
>2/19/95
>The v1.1 Updater contains a number of bug-fixes and enhancements for the
release version of Marathon. This updater may be distributed freely.
Bug fixes? You mean bugs. Enhancements? I don't think so... And who the
hell would want to distibute this shit anyway?
>Replays were really meant to be used with network games, and strange
results sometimes occur when trying to do replays of single player games.
This has not changed. The only way to record a single-player game is to
choose the "Begin Game" option from the main menu; games restored from
disk will *not* be recorded.
Ok, when I'm able to keep the game from crashing I'll record it.
>Below is a possibly incomplete list of bug-fixes and improvements which
were made to Marathon v1.1:
>BUGS ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly...
>€ The "Quadra 630 Acceleration" preferences option has been fixed and
renamed "Use Hardware Acceleration". Quadra 630, Performa 630, etc. users
should enable this option for better speed and visuals. Additionally,
this option will now work for 630 users with Apple PowerPC upgrades.
In other words, if you don't have a Q630, don't expect Marathon to work.
>€ Two-player network games with ARA are now possible. Unfortunately even
with 14.4k modems between Ä…040 machines ARAÄ…s CPU load is so heavy that
the game becomes extremely slow. We realize this is one of the most
awaited changes in v1.1 and that many people will be disappointed by its
performance; we are investigating direct modem-to-modem play for future
products, but such a patch will *not* be released for Marathon.
If I'm willing to suffer through all the other bugs and totaly fucked up
mouse control, maybe I'll test this out some day. But yippee, I'm really
jumping to test out something even Bungie says I'll be disappointed about.
>€ The "A" key will always work now. We swear.
Like I fucking care?
>€ Players can now leave network games without throwing them out-of-sync.
I'm not even going to try playing a net game with this mouse control.
>€ Some Ram Doubler conflicts were identified and fixed.
Shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
>€ Sometimes changing bit depths or monitors didnąt take effect until
quitting and relaunching Marathon; this has been fixed.
Same as above: shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
>€ Mouse control will no longer occasionally refuse to decline below
-15°. To accomplish this, the mouse driver was totally rewritten and may
not work like you remember (sorry). If youÄ…re having trouble with the new
mouse control, try lowering your mouse speed from the Å‚MouseË› (or
Å‚TrackpadË›) Control Panel.
Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
makes it suck a little bit less.
And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
spin.....
>€ On 12˛ monitors, 640x400 PowerBooks, etc., the Setup Keys dialog no
longer appears with the Å‚OKË› button off the screen.
On 12" monitors, the playing window will get cut off and show up on the
left side of your screen, and if you make the window any bigger, things
look even stranger.
>ENHANCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------
HAHAHAHAHA
>€ Millions of colors is now an option; check out the smooth lighting
effects if youÄ…ve got the hardware (and about 15M RAM).
Millions of colors is an OPTION? Wrong. If you guys did any beta testing
whatsoever, you'd notice that Thousands no longer works. Crash! So you're
either stuck with 256, or millions if you can support it. But Thousands
does work on a Q630. Pure luck...
>€ Slightly faster rendering code.
Does that mean it'll be smooth on my friend's LC?
€ All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
I never used keyboard. Never will.
1.0 is SO much better...
If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
bugs and complaints to write about.
-TS
Peter Arzhintar
(Thomas Samson) wrote:
And everything else is FUCKED UP!
> >€ Players can now leave network games without throwing them out-of-sync.
>
> I'm not even going to try playing a net game with this mouse control.
I'm getting dizzy with the mouse control.
> >€ Some Ram Doubler conflicts were identified and fixed.
>
> Shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
>
> >€ Sometimes changing bit depths or monitors didnąt take effect until
> quitting and relaunching Marathon; this has been fixed.
>
> Same as above: shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
>
> >€ Mouse control will no longer occasionally refuse to decline below
> -15°. To accomplish this, the mouse driver was totally rewritten and may
> not work like you remember (sorry). If youÄ…re having trouble with the new
> mouse control, try lowering your mouse speed from the Å‚MouseË› (or
> Å‚TrackpadË›) Control Panel.
>
> Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
> or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
> control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
> back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
> makes it suck a little bit less.
> And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
> quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
> spin.....
And spin and spin. Imagine someone coming up behind you in a network game,
and then you spinning is circles while he kills you!
> >€ On 12˛ monitors, 640x400 PowerBooks, etc., the Setup Keys dialog no
> longer appears with the Å‚OKË› button off the screen.
>
> On 12" monitors, the playing window will get cut off and show up on the
> left side of your screen, and if you make the window any bigger, things
> look even stranger.
>
> >ENHANCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> HAHAHAHAHA
>
> >€ Millions of colors is now an option; check out the smooth lighting
> effects if youÄ…ve got the hardware (and about 15M RAM).
>
> Millions of colors is an OPTION? Wrong. If you guys did any beta testing
> whatsoever, you'd notice that Thousands no longer works. Crash! So you're
> either stuck with 256, or millions if you can support it. But Thousands
> does work on a Q630. Pure luck...
>
> >€ Slightly faster rendering code.
>
> Does that mean it'll be smooth on my friend's LC?
>
> € All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
> left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
>
> I never used keyboard. Never will.
>
> 1.0 is SO much better...
>
> If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
> work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
> bugs and complaints to write about.
>
> -TS
I can't believe Bungie released this! The only person it is good for is a
keyboard user, with ARA and a quadra 630!
I will be exppecting another patch VERY SOON!
------Peter
Jeng Jia Hung
: Here is my reply to the ReadMe that came with the 1.1 Updater:
: >The v1.1 Updater contains a number of bug-fixes and enhancements for the
: release version of Marathon. This updater may be distributed freely.
: Bug fixes? You mean bugs. Enhancements? I don't think so... And who the
: hell would want to distibute this shit anyway?
Hey it works on everybody elses machines so it's your problem and not
anyone elses.
: >Replays were really meant to be used with network games, and strange
: results sometimes occur when trying to do replays of single player games.
: This has not changed. The only way to record a single-player game is to
: choose the "Begin Game" option from the main menu; games restored from
: disk will *not* be recorded.
: Ok, when I'm able to keep the game from crashing I'll record it.
: >Below is a possibly incomplete list of bug-fixes and improvements which
: were made to Marathon v1.1:
: >BUGS ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Exactly...
: >€ The "Quadra 630 Acceleration" preferences option has been fixed and
: renamed "Use Hardware Acceleration". Quadra 630, Performa 630, etc. users
: should enable this option for better speed and visuals. Additionally,
: this option will now work for 630 users with Apple PowerPC upgrades.
: In other words, if you don't have a Q630, don't expect Marathon to work.
You're just another dumb macintosh user who treats his machine like a toy
and expect it to work.
: >€ Two-player network games with ARA are now possible. Unfortunately even
: with 14.4k modems between Ä…040 machines ARAÄ…s CPU load is so heavy that
: the game becomes extremely slow. We realize this is one of the most
: awaited changes in v1.1 and that many people will be disappointed by its
: performance; we are investigating direct modem-to-modem play for future
: products, but such a patch will *not* be released for Marathon.
: If I'm willing to suffer through all the other bugs and totaly fucked up
: mouse control, maybe I'll test this out some day. But yippee, I'm really
: jumping to test out something even Bungie says I'll be disappointed about.
: >€ The "A" key will always work now. We swear.
: Like I fucking care?
Hey, people who have no hand eye coordination or like good controls will
love keyboard fixes.
: >€ Players can now leave network games without throwing them out-of-sync.
: I'm not even going to try playing a net game with this mouse control.
: >€ Some Ram Doubler conflicts were identified and fixed.
: Shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
: >€ Sometimes changing bit depths or monitors didnąt take effect until
: quitting and relaunching Marathon; this has been fixed.
: Same as above: shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
: >€ Mouse control will no longer occasionally refuse to decline below
: -15°. To accomplish this, the mouse driver was totally rewritten and may
: not work like you remember (sorry). If youÄ…re having trouble with the new
: mouse control, try lowering your mouse speed from the Å‚MouseË› (or
: Å‚TrackpadË›) Control Panel.
: Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
: or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
: control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
: back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
: makes it suck a little bit less.
: And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
: quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
: spin.....
Be a man and configure your system right!!!!
: >€ On 12˛ monitors, 640x400 PowerBooks, etc., the Setup Keys dialog no
: longer appears with the Å‚OKË› button off the screen.
: On 12" monitors, the playing window will get cut off and show up on the
: left side of your screen, and if you make the window any bigger, things
: look even stranger.
: >ENHANCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------
: HAHAHAHAHA
: >€ Millions of colors is now an option; check out the smooth lighting
: effects if youÄ…ve got the hardware (and about 15M RAM).
: Millions of colors is an OPTION? Wrong. If you guys did any beta testing
: whatsoever, you'd notice that Thousands no longer works. Crash! So you're
: either stuck with 256, or millions if you can support it. But Thousands
: does work on a Q630. Pure luck...
: >€ Slightly faster rendering code.
: Does that mean it'll be smooth on my friend's LC?
Does anything run good on an LC?
: € All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
: left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
: I never used keyboard. Never will.
: 1.0 is SO much better...
Yeah, 1.0 is so much better since it doesn't provide ARA.
: If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
: work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
: bugs and complaints to write about.
: -TS
--
--Jeng Jia Hung.
Thomas Samson
> : hell would want to distibute this shit anyway?
>
> Hey it works on everybody elses machines so it's your problem and not
> anyone elses.
No it doesn't work on everybody elses machines. And what part of the
patch are you referring to? The only problem that I've noticed that not
everybody else has is with Thousands of colors. But it worked fine with
1.0 on my machine so Bungie must have screwed up somewhere. Millions works
though.
> You're just another dumb macintosh user who treats his machine like a toy
> and expect it to work.
I expect software to run the way it's supposed to, or at least as good as
the first version. Dumb Macintosh user? I suppose you're a "smart PC
user?" Now there's an oxymoron...
> Hey, people who have no hand eye coordination or like good controls will
> love keyboard fixes.
So you're saying that people who like keyboard have no hand eye
coordination? Keyboard fixes are great to have, what are you talking
about?
> : Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
> : or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
> : control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
> : back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
> : makes it suck a little bit less.
> : And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
> : quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
> : spin.....
>
> Be a man and configure your system right!!!!
Ehem.. I have a Macintosh, and yes, my system is configured correctly.
Version 1.0 worked fine, 1.1 is what's giving me a headache. Everyone who
uses the mouse agrees with me on this one. I suppose you like the new
mouse control? Or does the mouse control work better if your system isn't
configured correctly?
> Does anything run good on an LC?
Word processors, tax managment software, spreadsheets, and a bunch of
other stuff. But if you're talking about games, no, nothing does. But my
comment wasn't so much that Marathon was supposed to run on an LC, rather
that the new speedup is negligable. But that doesn't make a difference
about how I like the update anyway.
> : 1.0 is SO much better...
>
> Yeah, 1.0 is so much better since it doesn't provide ARA.
No, 1.0 is better because of the mouse control. ARA was supposed to work
in version 1.0, as well as Quadra 630 Acceleration. If they didn't screw
up in the first place, no patch would have been needed.
Have you even played with version 1.1 yet? It sounds like you don't even
have a Macintosh!
-TS
Jamin A Brown
> In other words, if you don't have a Q630, don't expect Marathon to work.
Where do you get this? The game runs fine on my computer, either version
1.0 or version 1.1. You commented before that you can't get the game to
run without crashing, perhaps you have more of a problem with your system
than just with marathon.
> >€ The "A" key will always work now. We swear.
>
> Like I fucking care?
It has been an issue, it forced me and more than a few others to alter
their control setup. Nice to see they listened to our complaining. I am
now so used to my current setup that changing would be foolish. But for
those who still attempt to use the A key, glad to have it back.
> >€ Players can now leave network games without throwing them out-of-sync.
>
> I'm not even going to try playing a net game with this mouse control.
Yes, the mouse control is bad, but they have fixed a bug, something that
you just skipped right over in your response.
> >€ Some Ram Doubler conflicts were identified and fixed.
>
> Shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
You want to program a 3D, texture mapped, awesome game that comes out
*when* you say without *any* bugs? I'll be impressed if you do. E-mail me
when it is done and I'll buy it.
> >€ Sometimes changing bit depths or monitors didnąt take effect until
> quitting and relaunching Marathon; this has been fixed.
>
> Same as above: shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
Same as above: don't yell, at least they bothered to fix the problems that
were pointed out to them. Unlike some companies... Would you rather they
released it, then ignore the customer? I didn't think so. Perhaps if you
try a calm rational approach, Bungie will decide to release a version 1.2
update that fizes any ongoing problems.
> >€ Mouse control will no longer occasionally refuse to decline below
> -15°. To accomplish this, the mouse driver was totally rewritten and may
> not work like you remember (sorry). If youÄ…re having trouble with the new
> mouse control, try lowering your mouse speed from the Å‚MouseË› (or
> Å‚TrackpadË›) Control Panel.
>
> Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
> or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
> control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
> back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
> makes it suck a little bit less.
> And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
> quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
> spin.....
Okay, one of the few places I agree with your ranting. The new mouse
control is bad. I haven't played with it long, but it totally lacks the
intuitive feel that mouse control originally had in the demo. The looking
-15 degree bug is annoying, and needs to be addressed, but I really
feeling this update did not address it properly. Even with my Trackball
settings at the lowest possible acceleration, I cannot get nearly the
measure of control I had before the update. I use mouse because it allows
me to look up and down easily, and either turn fast or fine tune my aim
very easily. Version 1.1 fixed the vertical sight problem, but made fine
control impossible, and fast turning equally as difficult. I'm going to
stay with 1.0 just because of that.
> >€ On 12˛ monitors, 640x400 PowerBooks, etc., the Setup Keys dialog no
> longer appears with the Å‚OKË› button off the screen.
>
> On 12" monitors, the playing window will get cut off and show up on the
> left side of your screen, and if you make the window any bigger, things
> look even stranger.
12" monitors aren't supported by a lot of games these days. Why the
surprise? Bungie didn't say that they fixed the 12" display, just the
location of the buttons.
> >ENHANCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> HAHAHAHAHA
Why don't you take up an even more derogatory tone of voice? You might be
able to piss of even more people.
> >€ Millions of colors is now an option; check out the smooth lighting
> effects if youÄ…ve got the hardware (and about 15M RAM).
>
> Millions of colors is an OPTION? Wrong. If you guys did any beta testing
> whatsoever, you'd notice that Thousands no longer works. Crash! So you're
> either stuck with 256, or millions if you can support it. But Thousands
> does work on a Q630. Pure luck...
You either don't know how to use your computer, are running the old Apple
8€24 card that only does 256 or Millions, NOT Thousands, or aren't
allocating enough memory to Marathon.
> >€ Slightly faster rendering code.
>
> Does that mean it'll be smooth on my friend's LC?
It hopefully means that network play will be a little easier to deal with
at your current settings, or that you might be able to switch up to the
next setting set. Bungie didn't have the help of God writing this game, I
severely doubt anything could make Marathon run fast on a stock LC.
> € All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
> left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
>
> I never used keyboard. Never will.
But for the people who do, this would be a great option (if the mouse
control worked correctly) to be able to do fine aiming for long distance
sniping. It would also mean you could have your keys setup for two people,
one who plays mouse and one who plays keyboard, and not have to change a
thing. I still think that control sets should be able to be saved (al la
Spectre Supreme).
> 1.0 is SO much better...
We are all more used to 1.0. The ONLY problem I am having with 1.1 is the
mouse control. If I could have all the other options and keep the old
mouse control (with bugs) I would jump for it. Besides the badly
implemented mouse control, the version 1.1 upgrade seems to address many
other problems.
> If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
> work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
> bugs and complaints to write about.
Why don't you try some contructive critisism for a change. Your post is
one of the major reasons why companies stay off the net. If you had
instead voiced your problems in an intelligent manner, and in such a way
were Bungie to read it, they might actually be thankful, people might give
you a little respect.
Your post is inflammitory, obnoxious, unhelpful, and just plain rude. Yes,
I too was a little dissapointed when I found out that the mouse bugs (what
I was waiting for) weren't fixed in the way I had hoped. I'm going to
write a calm, well thought out letter to Bungie asking that they do some
futher work. Marathon is a great product. But if people like you keep
flaming the creators of products like these for trying to do updates, we
will never see good software for the Mac.
Maybe we are a bit spoiled by our computers. We can get most software to
run just the right way, and because we don't usually have problems, little
problems are very noticeable. But that is no excuse to be rude.
In any case, your post has provided me with a springboard from which to
attempt a rational discussion of the problems in the version 1.1 update.
It has also added you to my killfile. I hope it does the latter for a few
others. Maybe when we all can't hear this kind of thing, the net will
become a place for discussion, not flaming.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamin Brown jbro...@maine.maine.edu
"I'm a 21st century digital boy/I don't know how to live, but I've
got a lot of toys/My Daddy's a lazy middle class intellectual/My
Mommy's on Valium, so ineffectual/Ain't life a mystery?"-Bad Religion
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Samson
> >patch are you referring to? The only problem that I've noticed that not
> >everybody else has is with Thousands of colors. But it worked fine with
> >1.0 on my machine so Bungie must have screwed up somewhere. Millions
> works
> >though.
> >
>
> means it's your fault.
Version 1.0 worked on my machine, version 1.1 does not. Nor does it work
on my friend's Mac with or without extensions. I naturally assumed that
the problem was with 1.1 since I know it's not my fault that thousands of
colors does not work. But, like I said before, millions does.
> >> You're just another dumb macintosh user who treats his machine like a
toy and expect it to work.
> >
> > I expect software to run the way it's supposed to, or at least as good as
> >the first version. Dumb Macintosh user? I suppose you're a "smart PC
> >user?" Now there's an oxymoron...
> >
>
> You're stuck on the "dumb Macintosh user" line. As I see it, you're the
> only
> such person here.
Why would I be dumb? Because Bungie makes a flawed product that happens
to crash my Mac under many different conditions? I sent a post to the
bungie support guy and I'll tell you if it's my fault when I get a
response.
> No one should bother with keyboard fixes. Playing with a keyboard during
> network play is pretty much a death sentence for the keyboard user.
> That's
> kinda what I was referring to.
Some people play quite well with the keyboard. Just because they have a
different opinion than you doesn't make their playing style wrong.
Everyone should be able to play the way they want to, that is why I'm
annoyed with the mouse control in 1.1. 1.0 had much better control and
I've gotten used to it that way. Why change it now?
> >> Be a man and configure your system right!!!!
> >
> > Ehem.. I have a Macintosh, and yes, my system is configured correctly.
> >Version 1.0 worked fine, 1.1 is what's giving me a headache. Everyone
> who
> >uses the mouse agrees with me on this one. I suppose you like the new
> >mouse control? Or does the mouse control work better if your system
> isn't
> >configured correctly?
> >
>
> Sure, the mouse is the only major problem, but Christ, you complained way
> too much
> about everything. You quoted the whole readme.
I complained about everything was was not as good as version 1.0. If they
put out an updater that improved the game more than it made it worse, I
would not have complained as much.
> Let me see you try and make a game as advanced as Marathon, and make it
> work perfect without bugs.
I don't have to make something better than Marathon 1.1. All I had to do
is reinstall from the original disks. Now I'm using 1.0 and it is much
better than 1.1, and has less bugs.
> > Have you even played with version 1.1 yet? It sounds like you don't
> even
> >have a Macintosh!
>
> Yeah, right.
So do you like the mouse control or not? What do you think is so great
about 1.1? Which version do you like better and why? What system
configuration are you running to get Marathon to work in Thousands?
-TS
Christopher Blackwell
>
> Here is my reply to the ReadMe that came with the 1.1 Updater:
>
Lighten up... you could hurt yourself.
Chris B.
Jeng Jia Hung
>
>> > No it doesn't work on everybody elses machines. And what part of the
>> >patch are you referring to? The only problem that I've noticed that not
>> >everybody else has is with Thousands of colors. But it worked fine with
>> >1.0 on my machine so Bungie must have screwed up somewhere. Millions
>> works
>> >though.
>> >
>>
>> Ah, but people have gotten it to work with thousands of colors. Basically
>> means it's your fault.
>
> Version 1.0 worked on my machine, version 1.1 does not. Nor does it work
>on my friend's Mac with or without extensions. I naturally assumed that
>the problem was with 1.1 since I know it's not my fault that thousands of
>colors does not work. But, like I said before, millions does.
>
Sounds like you got something better. Millions instead of thousands.
>> >> You're just another dumb macintosh user who treats his machine like a
>toy and expect it to work.
>> >
>> > I expect software to run the way it's supposed to, or at least as good as
>> >the first version. Dumb Macintosh user? I suppose you're a "smart PC
>> >user?" Now there's an oxymoron...
>> >
>>
>> You're stuck on the "dumb Macintosh user" line. As I see it, you're the
>> only
>> such person here.
>
> Why would I be dumb? Because Bungie makes a flawed product that happens
>to crash my Mac under many different conditions? I sent a post to the
>bungie support guy and I'll tell you if it's my fault when I get a
>response.
>
It's definitely not your fault that Bungie made a bad product, bitchin'
about it is your fault.
>> No one should bother with keyboard fixes. Playing with a keyboard during
>> network play is pretty much a death sentence for the keyboard user.
>> That's
>> kinda what I was referring to.
>
> Some people play quite well with the keyboard. Just because they have a
>different opinion than you doesn't make their playing style wrong.
>Everyone should be able to play the way they want to, that is why I'm
>annoyed with the mouse control in 1.1. 1.0 had much better control and
>I've gotten used to it that way. Why change it now?
>
Are you trying to make me a keyboard hater? I'm not. In fact, I like
the keyboard. I think the mouse is better in 1.0 though.
>> >> Be a man and configure your system right!!!!
>> >
>> > Ehem.. I have a Macintosh, and yes, my system is configured correctly.
>> >Version 1.0 worked fine, 1.1 is what's giving me a headache. Everyone
>> who
>> >uses the mouse agrees with me on this one. I suppose you like the new
>> >mouse control? Or does the mouse control work better if your system
>> isn't
>> >configured correctly?
>> >
>>
>> Sure, the mouse is the only major problem, but Christ, you complained way
>> too much
>> about everything. You quoted the whole readme.
>
> I complained about everything was was not as good as version 1.0. If they
>put out an updater that improved the game more than it made it worse, I
>would not have complained as much.
>
>> Let me see you try and make a game as advanced as Marathon, and make it
>> work perfect without bugs.
>
> I don't have to make something better than Marathon 1.1. All I had to do
>is reinstall from the original disks. Now I'm using 1.0 and it is much
>better than 1.1, and has less bugs.
>
The Bungie people have tried their best to make a decent product. They've
failed, but at least they tried. They did something more than those MS
people have done. You should quit bitching when people are actually hard
at work.
>> > Have you even played with version 1.1 yet? It sounds like you don't
>> even
>> >have a Macintosh!
>>
>> Yeah, right.
>
>So do you like the mouse control or not? What do you think is so great
>about 1.1? Which version do you like better and why? What system
>configuration are you running to get Marathon to work in Thousands?
>
I never said that 1.1 is better, now have I? I don't think it's a
better product, just that it's at least showing how much effort the
Bungie people have made.
> -TS
Work your system's bugs out so that you can get thousands.
--JJ.
Thomas Samson
Hung) wrote:
> > Version 1.0 worked on my machine, version 1.1 does not. Nor does it work
> >on my friend's Mac with or without extensions. I naturally assumed that
> >the problem was with 1.1 since I know it's not my fault that thousands of
> >colors does not work. But, like I said before, millions does.
> >
>
> Sounds like you got something better. Millions instead of thousands.
I'll talk to Bungie about this problem and then I'll see if I'm the only
one who's having problems with 16 bit color.
All I'm trying to say is that the mouse control was better in 1.0, and
they should stick with that mouse driver rather than re-writing it. I'd
rather have the occational look-down bug than have the mouse control the
way it is now.
Bungie has done a great job listening to suggestions from it's customers,
and I think that's great, but they should have found at least one mouse
user to test out their new driver before they decided to replace the one
that everyone has gotten used to.
-TS
Jeng Jia Hung
Glad you see it my way. They have listened. Period.
--JJ
Christopher Uy
>In article <3icigi$n...@news.csus.edu>, jjh...@mercury.sfsu.edu (Jeng Jia
>Hung) wrote:
>> > Version 1.0 worked on my machine, version 1.1 does not. Nor does it work
>> >on my friend's Mac with or without extensions. I naturally assumed that
>> >the problem was with 1.1 since I know it's not my fault that thousands of
>> >colors does not work. But, like I said before, millions does.
>> >
>>
>> Sounds like you got something better. Millions instead of thousands.
> I'll talk to Bungie about this problem and then I'll see if I'm the only
>one who's having problems with 16 bit color.
I haven't been able to get version 1.1 to work either. I don't have
millions of colors, but I do have 16 bit color. I'm running on a Centris
650 with 8 MB allocated to Marathon. Has anyone else had a similar problem?
It's too bad I haven't been able to get this to work, because I'd like to
see the rendering increases that version 1.1 is supposed to have. If anyone
has a fix, please email me. Thanks!
Chris
--
*******************************************************************************
* Christopher Uy au0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu *
* http://turnpike.net/metro/sheu/index.html sh...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu *
*******************************************************************************
Thomas Samson
jbro...@maine.maine.edu (Jamin A Brown) wrote:
> In article <tsamson-2002...@192.0.2.2>, tsa...@mercury.sfsu.edu
> (Thomas Samson) wrote:
>
> > In other words, if you don't have a Q630, don't expect Marathon to work.
>
> Where do you get this? The game runs fine on my computer, either version
> 1.0 or version 1.1. You commented before that you can't get the game to
> run without crashing, perhaps you have more of a problem with your system
> than just with marathon.
1.0 works perfectly fine, I enjoy playing 1.0. 1.1 crashes when I'm in
Thousands of colors, with or without extensions. I've given the thing
18Megs and it still bombs. And it bombs on my friend's Q630 when he's not
using Q630 acceleration and in Thousands.
> > >€ The "A" key will always work now. We swear.
> >
> > Like I fucking care?
>
> It has been an issue, it forced me and more than a few others to alter
> their control setup. Nice to see they listened to our complaining. I am
> now so used to my current setup that changing would be foolish. But for
> those who still attempt to use the A key, glad to have it back.
Ok, so some people might care.. but it's such a pitiful problem to have
in a game they shouldn't have even mentined it.
> > >€ Players can now leave network games without throwing them out-of-sync.
> >
> > I'm not even going to try playing a net game with this mouse control.
>
> Yes, the mouse control is bad, but they have fixed a bug, something that
> you just skipped right over in your response.
Bad.. very bad. They fixed the mouse control alright, but made another
mouse bug even worse by doing so. Try looking up or down while running,
you come to a stop.
> > >€ Some Ram Doubler conflicts were identified and fixed.
> >
> > Shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
>
> You want to program a 3D, texture mapped, awesome game that comes out
> *when* you say without *any* bugs? I'll be impressed if you do. E-mail me
> when it is done and I'll buy it.
Ok, so Ram Doubler sucks... sorry bungie.
> > >€ Sometimes changing bit depths or monitors didnąt take effect until
> > quitting and relaunching Marathon; this has been fixed.
> >
> > Same as above: shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
>
> Same as above: don't yell, at least they bothered to fix the problems that
> were pointed out to them. Unlike some companies... Would you rather they
> released it, then ignore the customer? I didn't think so. Perhaps if you
> try a calm rational approach, Bungie will decide to release a version 1.2
> update that fizes any ongoing problems.
A 1.2 is definately what's needed. But it's true, with a normal amount of
beta testing that problem shouldn't have been there.
> > >€ Mouse control will no longer occasionally refuse to decline below
> > -15°. To accomplish this, the mouse driver was totally rewritten and may
> > not work like you remember (sorry). If youÄ…re having trouble with the new
> > mouse control, try lowering your mouse speed from the Å‚MouseË› (or
> > Å‚TrackpadË›) Control Panel.
> >
> > Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the mouse up
> > or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse me? The
> > control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put it
> > back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much. It
> > makes it suck a little bit less.
> > And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the mouse
> > quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and spin and
> > spin.....
>
> Okay, one of the few places I agree with your ranting. The new mouse
> control is bad. I haven't played with it long, but it totally lacks the
> intuitive feel that mouse control originally had in the demo. The looking
> -15 degree bug is annoying, and needs to be addressed, but I really
> feeling this update did not address it properly. Even with my Trackball
> settings at the lowest possible acceleration, I cannot get nearly the
> measure of control I had before the update. I use mouse because it allows
> me to look up and down easily, and either turn fast or fine tune my aim
> very easily. Version 1.1 fixed the vertical sight problem, but made fine
> control impossible, and fast turning equally as difficult. I'm going to
> stay with 1.0 just because of that.
Yup. I'm staying with 1.0 until that problem's fixed.
> > >€ On 12˛ monitors, 640x400 PowerBooks, etc., the Setup Keys dialog no
> > longer appears with the Å‚OKË› button off the screen.
> >
> > On 12" monitors, the playing window will get cut off and show up on the
> > left side of your screen, and if you make the window any bigger, things
> > look even stranger.
>
> 12" monitors aren't supported by a lot of games these days. Why the
> surprise? Bungie didn't say that they fixed the 12" display, just the
> location of the buttons.
I just had to switch into 12" to get millions on my Q660. Since 256 looks
awful and Thousands crashes my Mac and my friend's Q630 when Q630
Acceleration is off. But at least it didn't bomb like Thousands did.
> > >ENHANCEMENTS
---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > HAHAHAHAHA
>
> Why don't you take up an even more derogatory tone of voice? You might be
> able to piss of even more people.
>
> > >€ Millions of colors is now an option; check out the smooth lighting
> > effects if youÄ…ve got the hardware (and about 15M RAM).
> >
> > Millions of colors is an OPTION? Wrong. If you guys did any beta testing
> > whatsoever, you'd notice that Thousands no longer works. Crash! So you're
> > either stuck with 256, or millions if you can support it. But Thousands
> > does work on a Q630. Pure luck...
>
> You either don't know how to use your computer, are running the old Apple
> 8€24 card that only does 256 or Millions, NOT Thousands, or aren't
> allocating enough memory to Marathon.
I know a lot about my computer, I'm not running a 8€24 video card, My
computer can do Black & White, 4, 16, 256, Thousands, and when my
Multiscan's in 12", Millions.
And I would assume 18Meg to be enough to allocate to Marathon.
> > >€ Slightly faster rendering code.
> >
> > Does that mean it'll be smooth on my friend's LC?
>
> It hopefully means that network play will be a little easier to deal with
> at your current settings, or that you might be able to switch up to the
> next setting set. Bungie didn't have the help of God writing this game, I
> severely doubt anything could make Marathon run fast on a stock LC.
I agree, nothing can run fast, or even acceptably on an LC. I do notice
so speedup, but I assume it's from me having to run in 256 colors because
Thousands crashes.
> > € All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
> > left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
> >
> > I never used keyboard. Never will.
>
> But for the people who do, this would be a great option (if the mouse
> control worked correctly) to be able to do fine aiming for long distance
> sniping. It would also mean you could have your keys setup for two people,
> one who plays mouse and one who plays keyboard, and not have to change a
> thing. I still think that control sets should be able to be saved (al la
> Spectre Supreme).
Ok, so some people will like this, but it doesn't substitute the lousy
mouse control.
> > 1.0 is SO much better...
>
> We are all more used to 1.0. The ONLY problem I am having with 1.1 is the
> mouse control. If I could have all the other options and keep the old
> mouse control (with bugs) I would jump for it. Besides the badly
> implemented mouse control, the version 1.1 upgrade seems to address many
> other problems.
I'd like 1.1 if the mouse control was fixed, and I could run it in
thousands of colors.
> > If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
> > work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
> > bugs and complaints to write about.
>
> Why don't you try some contructive critisism for a change. Your post is
> one of the major reasons why companies stay off the net. If you had
> instead voiced your problems in an intelligent manner, and in such a way
> were Bungie to read it, they might actually be thankful, people might give
> you a little respect.
I have a reason to be pissed, the 1.1 updater makes the game worse in
every way except the ARA patch and Q630 acceleration fix, BOTH of which
were supposed to be in 1.0. If they just fixed these two things, and
didn't screw with everything else, 1.1 would actually be an improvement.
And Bungie has read this.
> Your post is inflammitory, obnoxious, unhelpful, and just plain rude. Yes,
> I too was a little dissapointed when I found out that the mouse bugs (what
> I was waiting for) weren't fixed in the way I had hoped. I'm going to
> write a calm, well thought out letter to Bungie asking that they do some
> futher work. Marathon is a great product. But if people like you keep
> flaming the creators of products like these for trying to do updates, we
> will never see good software for the Mac.
Hey, my post was the truth. And I didn't think that I was inflammitory,
obnoxious, unhelpful, or rude. I just stated what I didn't like about the
patch very quickly and accurately.
> Maybe we are a bit spoiled by our computers. We can get most software to
> run just the right way, and because we don't usually have problems, little
> problems are very noticeable. But that is no excuse to be rude.
>
> In any case, your post has provided me with a springboard from which to
> attempt a rational discussion of the problems in the version 1.1 update.
> It has also added you to my killfile. I hope it does the latter for a few
> others. Maybe when we all can't hear this kind of thing, the net will
> become a place for discussion, not flaming.
I did not consider my post a flame, but since you're an ass, and you
won't read this because I'm on your killfile, FUCK YOU! :-)
I actually thought my original post was quite funny.... people are so
rude some times... :-)
-TS
Shadow of Death
> Here is my reply to the ReadMe that came with the 1.1 Updater:
>
>
> >MARATHON V1.0-->V1.1 UPDATER RELEASE NOTES
> >2/19/95
>
> >The v1.1 Updater contains a number of bug-fixes and enhancements for the
> release version of Marathon. This updater may be distributed freely.
>
> Bug fixes? You mean bugs. Enhancements? I don't think so... And who the
> hell would want to distibute this shit anyway?
>
> >Replays were really meant to be used with network games, and strange
> results sometimes occur when trying to do replays of single player games.
> This has not changed. The only way to record a single-player game is to
> choose the "Begin Game" option from the main menu; games restored from
> disk will *not* be recorded.
>
> Ok, when I'm able to keep the game from crashing I'll record it.
>
> >Below is a possibly incomplete list of bug-fixes and improvements which
> were made to Marathon v1.1:
>
... Blah, blah, blah...etcetera ad nausem...
Hey pipe down there guy... life really isn't that hard...
If you don't like it fine, be upset, blow off some steam, have a vigil,
just do it eiter A] to Bungie where it counts, or B] to people who care...
--
The
Shadow "Just because you're paranoid,
of don't mean I'm not after you..."
Death
Scott Ellsworth
In article <3icigi$n...@news.csus.edu>,
Jeng Jia Hung <jjh...@mercury.sfsu.edu> wrote:
>In article <tsamson-2102...@192.0.2.2>, tsa...@mercury.sfsu.edu says...
>>
>
>The Bungie people have tried their best to make a decent product. They've
>failed, but at least they tried. They did something more than those MS
>people have done. You should quit bitching when people are actually hard
>at work.
Failed? Seemed like a decent product to me.
Frankly, we are not ready for computing for the masses. The masses
cannot be trusted with something this complex. Complex systems have a
certain amount of variation, but most people cannot handle that idea.
For some reason, they think that software must be absolutely perfect, in
an untestable variety of configurations.
Go take a look at your typical automobile. About 20K+ per unit, many,
maany moving parts, and probably about as complex internally (in a
different measure) as your typical comouter system. Now note that
_delivered from the factory_, most new vehicles have between 3-10 sample
defects depending on brand. This is why new models last several years.
It takes time to get the variation down such that people see only the
variation resulting from the manufacturing process, as oppsoed to that
resulting from the design process.
Now look at the typical computer system. Aside from the variation in
design and maufaturing of the computer, you also have the same demons
working on the games made. Unfortunately, this is a $40 product whose
entire life cycle is probably a year or two, and which will not be of
much use in creating the killer game for 1997. (the machines will be
different enough that many of the clever ideas in 1995 will be completely
outmoded by 1997).
So, I think the standards for decent might be getting a bit out of
whack. Bungie certainly should spend some time iterating through
updaters, as should any software company, since this is what keeps the
product alive longer, but claiming that the product is not "decent" seems
incorrect. You might have a different experience, of course.
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth sc...@kaiwan.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calivin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Scott Ellsworth
Jamin A Brown <jbro...@maine.maine.edu> wrote:
>In article <tsamson-2002...@192.0.2.2>, tsa...@mercury.sfsu.edu
>(Thomas Samson) wrote:
>
>> € All keyboard controls now work while mouse control is active (turn
>> left/right, look up/down, recenter, etc.)
>>
>> I never used keyboard. Never will.
>
>But for the people who do, this would be a great option (if the mouse
>control worked correctly) to be able to do fine aiming for long distance
>sniping.
I do use the keyboard because I have a trackball that is slowly dying.
It is good enough for most work, but one does get skips occasionally.
Having more than one money sink in my life right now, I will wait to
replace it. Making kb&mouse work together means that I will not have to
use the mouse for most things, but I might be able to use it for the few
fine aiming things where it might be usable. Thus, at least one
customer is happier.
>> If I ever get around to testing 1.1 over ARA (localtalk probably doesn't
>> work since they put in ARA code) then I'm sure I'll have a bunch of other
>> bugs and complaints to write about.
>
>Why don't you try some contructive critisism for a change. Your post is
>one of the major reasons why companies stay off the net.
I develop software for a living. Let me tell you how the original post
would be recieved by me in my professional capacity.
(reads letter)
"What a jerk. Doubt he will ever like the product, and it sounds like
his system is screwed up anyway. Maybe he is right about the mouse
thing. I will look at it on tuesday."
(tosses letter into the "should be examined" folder.)
Believe me, 100K lines of code _does_ give you quite a thick folder of
things to examine. Problems people have on thier machines that just do
not show up in house, often produced by a buggy extension, or thier own
incompetence. This is of course not always the case, but someone who
sounds rational, intelligent, and friendly is far more likely to make
me believe in thier ability. If someone sounds like a dolt, I will check
and see if I can reproduce the reported bug, but if I cannot, I am hardly
likely to want to put in more overtime looking for something I have
little reason to believe exists.
Same post, but written politely, for example "I find the mouse control
far too sensitive, especially when turning quickly. I have tried it on
the tablet setting, and it still is twitchy." Notice, not once did I
call the product garbage.
(reads letter)
"Hmmm. Sounds like he knows his system, and likes the game. Probably
smart enough to have tried it without extensions, etc. Mayebe he has
something about <insert more obscure bug>. Certainly, the mouse thing is
probably a problem for more than him."
In general, a letter represents ~100 people who feel the same, just not as
strongly. Or it represents an isolated whacko. Your goal in writing a
letter to a company should be to have them count you as one of a hundred
people. Given that by far the majority of the people respond
approximately as they are treated, it is best to keep the relationship as
professional as possible, if you seek professional treatment.
Obviously, a developer is going to feel somewhat sensitive
about a project that they spent several years of thier LIFE on. Casting
aspersions, and making comments about "it never should have had this
problem in the first place." is not the way to make the human on the
other end of the communication feel like wanting to help you. Remember,
when they were coming up on Xmas, people were planning on stringing them
up for not releasing it months ago. There were posts flaming them for
bugs in the illegal beta, for God's sake.
In summary, I agree with you, Jamin. Rational discourse might get the
problems solved, and will certainly mostivate the people onthe other end
to consider the net a resource. A place to get ideas, perhaps to propose
them as well. Foolish invective makes the net a place to spew venom.
Jim Wong
>Here is my reply to the ReadMe that came with the 1.1 Updater:
You might look into trying decaf.
--
Jim Wong (jd-...@uiuc.edu)
Christopher L. Peterson
Ummmm, gee. I think a few people need to relax or grow up.
Hundreds of women are raped every day.
Hundreds of children starve to death every day.
Several species of insects become extinct every day.
Hundreds of people die of cancer every day.
Regretfully, etc, etc, etc, etc.
If you're going to get upset about someting, pick something
important. Getting upset because a patch to working piece
of software causes it to crash is silly. It is irratating,
it is shortsighted, but so is reading a post from someone
who is unwilling to post a complaint without adding profanity
to every sentance.
Thomas Samson
(ASCIIRDER) wrote:
> Re: tsa...@mercury.sfsu.edu (Thomas Samson)
>
> >> I did not consider my post a flame, but since you're an ass, and you
> won't read this because I'm on your killfile, FUCK YOU! :-)<<
>
> Your ignorance is showing!
You mean my hilarious sense of humor...
> You have just proven WHO the ass is in this situation...........
Certainly not me.....................................
> You know, Bungie is ONLY 5 guys, 4 of them in the actual nuts and bolts of
> the thing, the fifth being a PR man, what the hell are you expecting?
I love Marathon 1.0 because Bungie did a great job with it. And I'm very
happy that such a small amount of people could make such a great game.
But I am expecting an updater to actually make the game better without
sacrificing the most important part of the game, the mouse control.
> Why dont you just sell your mac?.........get an IBM and play doom
> II........you give us Mac Users a bad name..........
Why should I sell my Mac? I have nothing against Macs, nor Marathon 1.0.
Where did this statement of yours come from?
> System 7 is a PRIME example of what happens when a company takes a
> mountian of a project , gives a release date, then is late, then once its
> released, its filled with bugs. System 7 was something like 2 years late
> or something, and then when it WAS released, it had bugs up the ying yang.
>
> .........Hell system 7 STILL has bugs..........
Again, Marathon 1.0 is fine. I don't care if Bungie spent a month or two
instead of two weeks making an updater. If the updater didn't completely
ruin the mouse control I'd be one happy Marathon player.
> People like you expect companies to produce perfection every time, without
> knowing what it is they have to do to get it.
I thought Bungie knew about beta testing... And if they noticed that the
mouse control was awful, they should have simply put the old code back in.
> Its also because of PEOPLE like you that bungie has now instituted a NO
> TELL policy. They wont say anything about what there working on, anymore.
Don't you like suprises? And no, it's not people like me. If Bungie
didn't release the worst updater I've ever seen, none of this would be
happening.
> Because people like you dont realize what a monumental effort developing a
> new pice of software is. You flame bungie when there late, and then when
> they do release, you complain. No sir it is you who is the asshole. noone
> else. Yes you have a right to be angry. YOU DO NOT have the right to be
> beligerent,abusive,or derogatory. Plain and simple.
I DO realize the effort involved in making a nice piece of software like
Marathon. They spent a lot of hard work getting it perfect for 1.0, then 1
month later they ruined it. Do you think the control is better in 1.1?
As a paid customer, if I don't have the right to compain about flawed
products, no one does. Plain and simple.
-TS
Aaron Bergman
(Thomas Samson) wrote:
:In article <3idddh$5...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>, sc...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com
:(Scott Ellsworth) wrote:
:
:> I develop software for a living. Let me tell you how the original post
:> would be recieved by me in my professional capacity.
:>
:> (reads letter)
:>
:> "What a jerk. Doubt he will ever like the product, and it sounds like
:> his system is screwed up anyway. Maybe he is right about the mouse
:> thing. I will look at it on tuesday."
:
: You are wrong. First of all I am not a jerk, second I like Marathon 1.0
:very much, and third, my system is not screwed up whatsoever. If you read
:some of the posts before you posted yours, you would have seen that other
:people's machines bomb when in thousands of colors too. And I am
:definately right about how the mouse control sucks.
Read carefully what he said. Here, I'll quote the sentence again for you:
"Let me tell you how the original post would be recieved by me in my
professional capacity."
That was a hypothetical. You might not be a jerk, and it might not be your
system, but that's the impression you gave. You sounded like a flaming
idiot who had nothing intelligent to say. My guess is that you were a tad
angry about the new mouse contol (or lack thereof). However, you let this
anger spill over into a post that sounded like an idiot wrote it.
:
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman
Jeng Jia Hung
>
>> : Bug fixes? You mean bugs. Enhancements? I don't think so... And who
the
>> : hell would want to distibute this shit anyway?
>>
>> Hey it works on everybody elses machines so it's your problem and not
>> anyone elses.
>
> No it doesn't work on everybody elses machines. And what part of the
>patch are you referring to? The only problem that I've noticed that not
>everybody else has is with Thousands of colors. But it worked fine with
>1.0 on my machine so Bungie must have screwed up somewhere. Millions
works
>though.
>
Ah, but people have gotten it to work with thousands of colors. Basically
means it's your fault.
>> You're just another dumb macintosh user who treats his machine like a
toy
>> and expect it to work.
>
> I expect software to run the way it's supposed to, or at least as good
as
>the first version. Dumb Macintosh user? I suppose you're a "smart PC
>user?" Now there's an oxymoron...
>
You're stuck on the "dumb Macintosh user" line. As I see it, you're the
only
such person here.
>> Hey, people who have no hand eye coordination or like good controls
will
>> love keyboard fixes.
>
> So you're saying that people who like keyboard have no hand eye
>coordination? Keyboard fixes are great to have, what are you talking
>about?
>
No one should bother with keyboard fixes. Playing with a keyboard during
network play is pretty much a death sentence for the keyboard user.
That's
kinda what I was referring to.
>> : Oooo, instead of not going below -15°, now whenever I move the
mouse up
>> : or down, I stop running. "May" not work like I remember???? Excuse
me? The
>> : control now totally sucks! I want to turn 45° and I make a 180°. Put
it
>> : back the way it was. Lowering the mouse control doesn't help much.
It
>> : makes it suck a little bit less.
>> : And for those who want to have some fun getting dizzy, move the
mouse
>> : quickly, then lift it off the mouse pad.. Wheee, you can spin and
spin and
>> : spin.....
>>
>> Be a man and configure your system right!!!!
>
> Ehem.. I have a Macintosh, and yes, my system is configured correctly.
>Version 1.0 worked fine, 1.1 is what's giving me a headache. Everyone
who
>uses the mouse agrees with me on this one. I suppose you like the new
>mouse control? Or does the mouse control work better if your system
isn't
>configured correctly?
>
Sure, the mouse is the only major problem, but Christ, you complained way
too much
about everything. You quoted the whole readme.
>> Does anything run good on an LC?
>
> Word processors, tax managment software, spreadsheets, and a bunch of
>other stuff. But if you're talking about games, no, nothing does. But my
>comment wasn't so much that Marathon was supposed to run on an LC,
rather
>that the new speedup is negligable. But that doesn't make a difference
>about how I like the update anyway.
>
>> : 1.0 is SO much better...
>>
>> Yeah, 1.0 is so much better since it doesn't provide ARA.
>
> No, 1.0 is better because of the mouse control. ARA was supposed to
work
>in version 1.0, as well as Quadra 630 Acceleration. If they didn't screw
>up in the first place, no patch would have been needed.
>
Let me see you try and make a game as advanced as Marathon, and make it
work perfect without bugs.
> Have you even played with version 1.1 yet? It sounds like you don't
even
>have a Macintosh!
Yeah, right.
>
> -TS
--JJ.
Thomas Samson
aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Aaron Bergman) wrote:
> : You are wrong. First of all I am not a jerk, second I like Marathon 1.0
> :very much, and third, my system is not screwed up whatsoever. If you read
> :some of the posts before you posted yours, you would have seen that other
> :people's machines bomb when in thousands of colors too. And I am
> :definately right about how the mouse control sucks.
>
> Read carefully what he said. Here, I'll quote the sentence again for you:
>
> "Let me tell you how the original post would be recieved by me in my
> professional capacity."
>
> That was a hypothetical. You might not be a jerk, and it might not be your
> system, but that's the impression you gave. You sounded like a flaming
> idiot who had nothing intelligent to say. My guess is that you were a tad
> angry about the new mouse contol (or lack thereof). However, you let this
> anger spill over into a post that sounded like an idiot wrote it.
It may have appeared like an idiot wrote it to you, and everyone else
from the looks of things, but I have not found anything in my original
post to be incorrect. Sure, it looks like I was pissed off when I wrote
it, but I had a right to be. It took me 2 downloads/15 minutes/2
restarts/1 re-install to get the patch to work, then it took me a good 30
minutes to figure out why it crashed every time I tried to play, and then
after that I found out that the mouse control was so incredibly awful that
I couldn't play Marathon any more.
Under these circumstances I believe my post was fully warranted, and I
would only change it slightly as to not offend keyboard users if I was to
post it again.
Does anybody actually like the new mouse control? Is any mouser going to
use 1.1 regularly?
-TS
ASCIIRDER
>> I did not consider my post a flame, but since you're an ass, and you
won't read this because I'm on your killfile, FUCK YOU! :-)<<
Your ignorance is showing!
You have just proven WHO the ass is in this situation...........
You know, Bungie is ONLY 5 guys, 4 of them in the actual nuts and bolts of
the thing, the fifth being a PR man, what the hell are you expecting?
Why dont you just sell your mac?.........get an IBM and play doom
II........you give us Mac Users a bad name..........
System 7 is a PRIME example of what happens when a company takes a
mountian of a project , gives a release date, then is late, then once its
released, its filled with bugs. System 7 was something like 2 years late
or something, and then when it WAS released, it had bugs up the ying yang.
.........Hell system 7 STILL has bugs..........
People like you expect companies to produce perfection every time, without
knowing what it is they have to do to get it.
Its also because of PEOPLE like you that bungie has now instituted a NO
TELL policy. They wont say anything about what there working on, anymore.
Because people like you dont realize what a monumental effort developing a
new pice of software is. You flame bungie when there late, and then when
they do release, you complain. No sir it is you who is the asshole. noone
else. Yes you have a right to be angry. YOU DO NOT have the right to be
beligerent,abusive,or derogatory. Plain and simple.
Maybe you should take a stress pill sit down and think things over
Dave.......
think bout that!
ASCIIRDER
My mind is going Dave..............I can feel it........
Thomas Samson
> I develop software for a living. Let me tell you how the original post
> would be recieved by me in my professional capacity.
>
> (reads letter)
>
> "What a jerk. Doubt he will ever like the product, and it sounds like
> his system is screwed up anyway. Maybe he is right about the mouse
> thing. I will look at it on tuesday."
You are wrong. First of all I am not a jerk, second I like Marathon 1.0
very much, and third, my system is not screwed up whatsoever. If you read
some of the posts before you posted yours, you would have seen that other
people's machines bomb when in thousands of colors too. And I am
definately right about how the mouse control sucks.
> (tosses letter into the "should be examined" folder.)
>
> Believe me, 100K lines of code _does_ give you quite a thick folder of
> things to examine. Problems people have on thier machines that just do
> not show up in house, often produced by a buggy extension, or thier own
> incompetence. This is of course not always the case, but someone who
> sounds rational, intelligent, and friendly is far more likely to make
> me believe in thier ability. If someone sounds like a dolt, I will check
> and see if I can reproduce the reported bug, but if I cannot, I am hardly
> likely to want to put in more overtime looking for something I have
> little reason to believe exists.
I have nothing against Marathon 1.0 at all. I will continue to play it
whenever I have a chance to. But 1 minute of beta testing is all it would
have taken for them to realize that they made Marathon worse.
And my system is fine! I've tried to keep it from crashing many times
when in 16 bit color: restarting without extensions, changing the
preferences many times, reinstalling from the original disks, throwing
away the prefs, and everything else I thought of that could be causing
Marathon to crash. But it simply does not run in 16 bit color on my
machine, and that's their problem because 1.0 did.
> Same post, but written politely, for example "I find the mouse control
> far too sensitive, especially when turning quickly. I have tried it on
> the tablet setting, and it still is twitchy." Notice, not once did I
> call the product garbage.
The nice, calm post was the one I sent Bungie. But I decided to have so
fun here in the newsgroups. Believe me, it is fun writing that stuff.
> (reads letter)
>
> "Hmmm. Sounds like he knows his system, and likes the game. Probably
> smart enough to have tried it without extensions, etc. Mayebe he has
> something about <insert more obscure bug>. Certainly, the mouse thing is
> probably a problem for more than him."
Absolutely correct. It seems that only a select few are having trouble
with 16 bit color. But I don't think anyone likes the new mouse control.
> In general, a letter represents ~100 people who feel the same, just not as
> strongly. Or it represents an isolated whacko. Your goal in writing a
> letter to a company should be to have them count you as one of a hundred
> people. Given that by far the majority of the people respond
> approximately as they are treated, it is best to keep the relationship as
> professional as possible, if you seek professional treatment.
My post to this newsgroup was an exaggeration of the calm post I sent to
Bungie. But they must have been pretty ignorant to distribute that
"updater."
> Obviously, a developer is going to feel somewhat sensitive
> about a project that they spent several years of thier LIFE on. Casting
> aspersions, and making comments about "it never should have had this
> problem in the first place." is not the way to make the human on the
> other end of the communication feel like wanting to help you. Remember,
> when they were coming up on Xmas, people were planning on stringing them
> up for not releasing it months ago. There were posts flaming them for
> bugs in the illegal beta, for God's sake.
Like I've said MANY times before, Marathon 1.0 is perfectly fine! I like
Marathon 1.0. Marathon 1.0 is good. I like playing Marathon 1.0. But the
patch they made in two weeks bungie time (not "serveral years of their
LIFE," as you said) simply makes the game worse in my opinion. Except for
ARA and Q630 Acceleration, of course.
> In summary, I agree with you, Jamin. Rational discourse might get the
> problems solved, and will certainly mostivate the people onthe other end
> to consider the net a resource. A place to get ideas, perhaps to propose
> them as well. Foolish invective makes the net a place to spew venom.
So you like 1.1 more that 1.0?
-TS
david schutz
(snip)
> God Damnit! Jesus Christ! O' Lord All Mighty! Are you saying that you
> actually like having fucked up mouse control and having your machine
> crash? You must be the most stupid ass hole on the fucking planet.
>
> I love how you elaborated so much on describing exactly what you would
> like me to shut the fuck up about.
>
> Oh, I get it, you were telling Jesus to shut the fuck up... ok.
>
> -TS
mr. samson, please take a couple of deep breaths. i appreciate the
intention behind your original post; you probably saved me a lot of
disappointment, frustration, and time spent re-installing. but bungie's
taken a lot of flak already (albeit occasionally justified) and whether
you're trying to be funny or not, ranting and flaming is hardly
encouragement for them to continue improving the game. why don't you
ignore the insult responses rather than waste bandwidth?
that being said, i think people should play v. 1.0 and wait for bungie to
fix the bug fix. 1.1 is obviously ticking a lot of people off...
what's so bad about 1.0 anyway, i won't die if i can't use ARA yet.
and now i'll shut the fuck up. ;-)
.
dav|d schutz
Tim Seufert
> I'll talk to Bungie about this problem and then I'll see if I'm the only
> one who's having problems with 16 bit color.
You're not. 16-bit color in v1.1 crashes my 660AV hard. 24-bit is
unusable, since I have to switch down to 512x384 to do it, and then I
can't see weapon status at all. (The distance shading sure is nice and
smooth, though. I wish I had an 8100/110 to play this on - 24-bit color
at 640x480, 100%, and high res ought to look beautiful.)
At the same time, I must say that your post was truly asinine. When you
experience a bug, don't assume that it's because the company is a bunch of
assholes and flame them, send them a detailed bug report. That's
infinitely more productive.
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| *UselessWastedSpace*(tm) Tim Seufert, bwa...@cats.ucsc.edu |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Do the environment a favor. Use goat-flavored floppy disks. |
| Think about it, won't you? Thank you. |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Gary Lodwig
Organization: University of Alberta
Distribution:
Tim Seufert (bwa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: In article <tsamson-2102...@192.0.2.2>, tsa...@mercury.sfsu.edu
: (Thomas Samson) wrote:
: > I'll talk to Bungie about this problem and then I'll see if I'm the only
: > one who's having problems with 16 bit color.
Someone else asked how you can get thousands of colors to work. I have a
PowerMac 6100/80AV. I ran the updater- no problem. I booted it up, gave
it a whirl. Seemed the same. I tried to turn on Hardware Acceleration,
since I could now. It crashed the computer, which is what I expected,
since I don't have a 630. I don't know why I can select this option. Then
I tried millions. I had to boot with nothing but RD (I have 8 megs only),
and give Marathon 9 Megs of RAM. I put it on 50%/Low/1 channel/11kHz etc.
I got it to run. Didn't look much different then thousands. So I put my
extensions back on, gave Marathon the old RAM setting of *** 4350K ***
and everything is great. I don't use the mouse, so I didn't notice that
problem.
What is the point of giving Marathon, or any game, more RAM then it
needs? I see no point in giving Marathon more than 4350K or so. Some
people have given it 18Megs. Is there a point to this?
Stonewall Jackson
(Tim Seufert) wrote:
>You're not. 16-bit color in v1.1 crashes my 660AV hard. 24-bit is
>unusable, since I have to switch down to 512x384 to do it, and then I
>can't see weapon status at all. (The distance shading sure is nice and
>smooth, though. I wish I had an 8100/110 to play this on - 24-bit color
>at 640x480, 100%, and high res ought to look beautiful.)
Same here. I took out the physics module, and rebooted with only Quicktime
2.0 & the instruments file active in Extentions. No RAM Doubler, no sAVe
the disk, nada. Configuration: Q660AV, Sys 7.5, 8 Mb RAM, partition size
5120 kb. Just another data point...
****************************************************************************
* Stonewall Jackson * Take the last train to clark.net, *
* ston...@clark.net * & I'll meet you at the station... *
****************************************************************************
ASCIIRDER
the
mouse control was awful, they should have simply put the old code back
in.<<
LOL.................you must really be out of touch...................the
beta was stolen when it was first compiled...............pirates spread it
like wildfire.........so yeah i think it was THOURGHLY beta tested.
>>> >> I did not consider my post a flame, but since you're an ass, and
you
> won't read this because I'm on your killfile, FUCK YOU! :-)<<
>
> Your ignorance is showing!
You mean my hilarious sense of humor...
> You have just proven WHO the ass is in this situation...........
Certainly not me.....................................<<
My but we do have a BIG ego dont we?
Perhaps its not too late to get you some Euthenasia therapy........
Damir Smitlener
[...snip...]
> Its also because of PEOPLE like you that bungie has now instituted a NO
> TELL policy.
I have no comment as to the original 'complaint', but the above statement
must truly be the work of an apologist.
Maybe they instituted a no-tell policy because of the grief they so
deservedly received after lying about the release date (and the
now-infamous boxes) _last_summer_. This was more than a schedule slip.
--
damir smitlener |
gt7...@optica.mirc.gatech.edu |
da...@mindspring.com |
Peter Arzhintar
(ASCIIRDER) wrote:
> >> I thought Bungie knew about beta testing... And if they noticed that
> the
> mouse control was awful, they should have simply put the old code back
> in.<<
>
> LOL.................you must really be out of touch...................the
> beta was stolen when it was first compiled...............pirates spread it
> like wildfire.........so yeah i think it was THOURGHLY beta tested.
I think he was talking about the patch....
Think a little before you post.
------Peter
Tim Seufert
glo...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Gary Lodwig) wrote:
> What is the point of giving Marathon, or any game, more RAM then it
> needs? I see no point in giving Marathon more than 4350K or so. Some
> people have given it 18Megs. Is there a point to this?
No, but some people seem to get the mistaken impression that somehow more
is always better. It isn't - above a certain memory amount, Marathon is
just not going to actually use what you're giving it. I run it at 6000K,
but I have no reason for that other than that I wanted to incresae its
memory size enough to enable 16-bit color, I tried 6000K, found out that
it worked, and didn't bother to try to find the cutoff point.
Carl Braga
1.0, but I have intermittent freezes and constantly starting up on the video
out without a monitor attached with version 1.1 My System is squeaky clean
wuth no extensions.
The game definitely doesn't suck, but the beta tesing of the 1.1 updater
certainly does.
Waiting for a 1.1.1 ?
- Carl Braga
John Moore
While I (as did apparently everyone) noticed the vitriolic
content of your response to Bungie's v1.1 ReadMe, I for one found it
to be enjoyable reading. Unfortunately (for you, myself, Bungie and a
lot of Marathon players), I also found it to be *painfully* accurate.
To quote the wise and timely words of a retired Marine D.I. that I had
for a phys. ed. instructor in 6th grade, almost 25 years ago: "The
fucking fucker's fucking-well fucked.". A sheer poet that man was and
never have I found those particular words of wisdom quite so
applicable before.
I will concede Bungie's near-impossible task of trying to be
all things to all men. The only bug that I cared about was my
inability to use the 630 acceleration (on my poor little 8 meg. 630
Quadra) that kept me from running full screen at anything remotely
resembling a normal frame rate. That was, quite honestly, the *only*
complaint that I had with what I did (and still do) believe to be the
most incredible experience ever designed for the Macintosh (much less
"Brand X").
I'll admit that I've as much tendency as anyone to become set
in his ways and resist becoming accustomed to new things (re the mouse
driver). The idea of spinning uncontrollably in massed groups of
Pfhor is one, however, that I hope my self esteem never falls low
enough to allow me to accept quietly. :) Bungie has replaced a minor
irritation that occurred infrequently, and was easily dealt with when
it did occur, with one that is *major*, malignant, continuous and
incurable.
I will be continuing my Marathon play with v1.0, as apparently
will many. In the mean time I shall continue to dream of a version of
Marathon wherein hardware acceleration coexists with an *acceptable*
mouse driver.
Acerbicly yours,
John.
Barry Einstein
It works fine on my PPC 8100 and when I up the RAM to 10MB, I get
millions of colors, although I don't seem to notice any improvement in
the graphics.
I can't seem to get Billions to work though....
;-)
(Maybe in 1.1.1 ???)
One question though:
I just downloaded a file called "Marathon Net Level [k]" and there's no
doc file with it.
What exactly does it do???
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry Einstein | Certified Apple Specialist
eins...@dorsai.org | MicroComputer Publishing Center
My other computer is an Amiga! | 4 West 20th Street,NYC NY 10011
| (212) 463-8585 ext. 209
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathaniel Irons
Einstein) wrote:
> I just downloaded a file called "Marathon Net Level [k]" and there's no
> doc file with it.
[k] is the universal symbol for KrAQ (hacker-ized for the english
impaired) and if the file's a patch, then it probably allows you to do
something you shouldn't. Otherwise it's just the tenth version of
something by someone who hates version numbers.
-N
--
.sigless in the meantime
Barry Einstein
: In article <D4onK...@dorsai.org>, eins...@news.dorsai.org (Barry
: Einstein) wrote:
: -N
It's definitley a patch. I DL'ed it from the Marathon WWW site and it
patches the main program file. In fact, I needed to reinstall from
original disks to patch to 1.1 after running the Net Level patch.
There's no indication of what it does though, even after using it.
anybody know???
: --
: .sigless in the meantime
--
rms...@imap1.asu.edu
: > doc file with it.
It's a patch that allows you to pick any level when gathering a net game.
It is highly recomended in conjunction with Mia! or NetEdit. (you can
make any level into a fun and exciting net game!)
--
L8r,
__________
Randallsan
_________________________________________________________________________
ShawComp Studios Fax: (602) 968-6297
Computer Entertainment eMail: rms...@asu.edu
_________________________________________________________________________
Noah M. Daniels
Einstein) wrote:
>
> There's no indication of what it does though, even after using it.
>
> anybody know???
>
>
It doesn't seem to do a thing... only the valid SN's work, and it still
checks over the network to make sure the others have different SN's, so
it's useless.
>
--
-=Noah M. Daniels=-
{ndan...@cc.swarthmore.edu}
"Gott Wuerfelt Nicht" - Albert Einstein
(God does not play dice)
Jamin A Brown
ndan...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Noah M. Daniels) wrote:
> > There's no indication of what it does though, even after using it.
> >
> > anybody know???
[Talking about the Net Level [k] program]
I believe it is to allow you to play any level as a network level. Dunno,
didn't want to try it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamin Brown jbro...@maine.maine.edu
"I'm a 21st century digital boy/I don't know how to live, but I've
got a lot of toys/My Daddy's a lazy middle class intellectual/My
Mommy's on Valium, so ineffectual/Ain't life a mystery?"-Bad Religion
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Quanah S. Harjo
>In article <D4qK5...@dorsai.org>, eins...@news.dorsai.org (Barry
>Einstein) wrote:
>>
>> There's no indication of what it does though, even after using it.
>>
>> anybody know???
>>
>>
>It doesn't seem to do a thing... only the valid SN's work, and it still
>checks over the network to make sure the others have different SN's, so
>it's useless.
>>
Are you talking about that patch? The Net Level one? If so, it lets
you use normal levels as network levels. But it only works on v1.0.
V1.1 won't take the patch, since the patcher is looking for 1.0. I've
heard that it does work, although weapons and such don't respawn, and
you can't leave the level.
Quanah S. Harjo...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
_____________________________________________________________
To defend is to forge the links of life on Death's own anvil.
_____________________________________________________________
Let no man's soul be as hated as the Rough, full of divots,
but let it be as smooth and guilless as the Fairway.
alain d. chalmers
>>
>> anybody know???
>>
>>
>It doesn't seem to do a thing... only the valid SN's work, and it still
>checks over the network to make sure the others have different SN's, so
>it's useless.
Did none of you get the read me!
it does quite a few things...
it speeds up rendering noticably [esp on my 8100/80]
it gives you the option of millions of colours [if you have 24bit
capabilities]
it allows ARA modem network play connection!
so quit your whining! *8*)
Thomas Samson
alain_d....@khazad.apana.org.au wrote:
Ehem... this thread has been going on so long it's title is now totaly
inappropriate. What they were talking about is the patch "Marathon Net
Level" which allows you to play network games on 1 player levels.
-TS
S. Michael Hallack
"Sounds like you got something better. Millions instead of thousands."
Well, except that Marathon seems to play slower each time you increase
the bit depth. Let's change 'better' to read more attractive with less
speed.
Aaron Bergman
scho...@oxy.edu (Brent W. Schorsch) wrote:
:Marathon w/ millions runs great on a 120Mz 604. (it's hard to tell the
:difference in speed between millions and 256.) Millions is too dark
:though.
:
:...just thought I would make everyone in netland drool.. :)
That's not very nice, you know. I don't suppose you could send me one of
those prototype 620's whenever you start makin' 'em, could ya?
Brent W. Schorsch
al...@cs.uchicago.edu (Alain Roy) wrote:
> In article <BK9bVJ3....@delphi.com>, S. Michael Hallack
> Which should be totally expected. (Maybe you were expecting it.) Let's see...
>
> Take the 100% screen size (not full screen). I think it's 448 x 272, though
> I could be off. Assume hi-res.
>
> 8 bit color:
> 448 x 272 x 1 = 121856 bytes/frame
>
> 16 bit color:
> 448 x 272 x 2 = 243712 bytes/frame
>
> 24 bit color:
> 448 x 272 x 3 = 365568 bytes/frame
>
> Now, if Marathon draws offscreen, then blits it onscreen, multiply all
> those by two. Hmmm... slamming around an awful lot of data.
>
> Millions of colors is clearly only a high-end feature. (Though I have seen
> it running on a 2ci! Not playable, but running...)
>
Marathon w/ millions runs great on a 120Mz 604. (it's hard to tell the
difference in speed between millions and 256.) Millions is too dark
though.
...just thought I would make everyone in netland drool.. :)
-Brent
BTW: does anyone know if Marathon uses floating point or integer math?
(I'm guessing since there is a 68k version that it's integer math. If so,
performance could be improved by changing it to floating point for PPC...)
Noah Daniels
>
> BTW: does anyone know if Marathon uses floating point or integer math?
> (I'm guessing since there is a 68k version that it's integer math. If so,
> performance could be improved by changing it to floating point for PPC...)
I could be wrong, but wouldn't that slow it down if it affected it at all?
I know PPC's are optimized for Floating Point math, and their performance
gains OVER 040s are higher in floating point than in fixed point, but they
still process fixed point math faster. The difference would be in really
accurate rendering - where you have to use floating point. For a game like
marathon, you might as well use fixed point, as it will be faster.
Or maybe I'm way off :-)