Marathon vs System Shock
Wilbur S. Peng
Alright, I've heard a ton of Marathon vs DOOM comparisons,
but from people's descriptions, Marathon has certain
similarities with the PC game System Shock. Anyone
have any comments?
Brian Stone
: but from people's descriptions, Marathon has certain
: similarities with the PC game System Shock. Anyone
: have any comments?
Havnt played it.
Doom people seem to dislike it for lack of speed and carnage.
Dont know anything else about it.
Why not tell us what YOU think?
BAS
Bryan Wu
(Brian Stone) wrote:
> Havnt played it.
> Doom people seem to dislike it for lack of speed and carnage.
> Dont know anything else about it.
> Why not tell us what YOU think?
Marathon:Sensory Overload
as
Doom:System Shock
?
The names are even kinda similar..
Tom Klancer
: : Alright, I've heard a ton of Marathon vs DOOM comparisons,
I've never heard of it, either...
Now, for a tangent :
I have a Doom-fanatic friend who complained that Marathon was *too*
fast. He said that when he ran in Doom, he had no control problems, but
in Marathon, he kept running into walls, etc. As for carnage, hey,
someone will edit it shortly - keep your pants on!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Klancer | tkla...@cnj.digex.net | tgil...@aol.com
|"The species has amused itself to death"|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
erik ellestad
> In article <3c8k0r$h...@krypton.hpc.sdsmt.edu>, bas...@silver.sdsmt.edu
> (Brian Stone) wrote:
> > Havnt played it.
> > Doom people seem to dislike it for lack of speed and carnage.
> > Dont know anything else about it.
> > Why not tell us what YOU think?
System shock is a new PC game distributed by origin but created by
folks who gave the world Ultima Underworld I and II. So it is not
a carnage game, but a science fiction role playing adventure. There
seem to be a some sort of similarities between Marathon and System
Shock. You are the last human alive on a a)space ship b)space colony.
The space ship has been taken over by a)Hacker aliens b)you are a
human hacker hired by The Company to deal with a computer who has
taken over the colony and transmuted the other remaining humans into
Zombie Mutants. etc. etc.
In any case the good news it that there is a pretty good chance that
System Shock will be available for the Macintosh. Origin, has made
some noise that it is interested in the Mac platform, and, I assume,
if all goes well with Super Wing Commander, sales and all, they have
tenative plans to do System Shock as well. Or so they say on AOL.
So we will all be able to compare and contrast Marathon and System
Shock!!!!!!!!
erik
ejel...@dnai.com
Eric King
Peng) wrote:
Why don't you wait until the Mac version of System Shock is available.
Origin's just announced that they are working on it also. The port's being
done by the same person who's did Links Pro, I believe.
-Eric
murpes, the Avatar.
>
> Alright, I've heard a ton of Marathon vs DOOM comparisons,
> but from people's descriptions, Marathon has certain
> similarities with the PC game System Shock. Anyone
> have any comments?
Sure! I've played all 3 games extensively (well, as extensively as you can
play a demo) and I'd be happy to share my thoughts on Marthon and SS.
They both involve similar plots - in SS you get nabbed for hacking a computer,
but the guy who catches you offers to let you off the hook if you do some
hacking for him. In fact, he will give you some sort of super computer that is
wired into your brain. So, you do it and part of getting the brain-interface
involves you going into a year long coma, for reasons I have forgotten onboard
the spaceship Citadel. Anyway, when you wake up, you find the entire ship
you're on to be either dead (and severly dismembered) or mutated, plus all the
robots take a liking to trying to kill you. You pick up information through
email, too, but you don't need a station to read it - you carry your email
reader with you and you find the data lying around. You also get to tap into
the computer with the new brain of yours when you find a port - and I mean
*tap* into it - the game switches into a flight-sim mode and you actually
travel around in the computer and physically pick up data and codes.
The thing about SS is it's configurability. When you start the game, you can
choose the difficultly in four areas - combat, puzzles, plot, and cyberspace.
I personally play it high on plot and low on combat, but I suspect that the
inverse of that would give you a feel very close to Marathon.
The SS engine does *alot* that the Marathon (or any other 3D engine I've seen)
can't do. You can look 100% overhead or down. You can climb, crawl, lean,
duck, jump ... the maps are true multi-leveled, too, something Marathon can do
but DOOM can't. If you've ever seen the Ultima Underworld series, it is a
similar but much more advanced environment. It also has angled floors, like
ramps - ie; the walls and floors aren't all at 90 degrees to one another, so
you can be walking down and octogon shaped corridor, for example.
But, the question of efficiency arises. I've had the benefit of running
Marathon on what I guess is a fast machine - a PPC with 16 megs of RAM. I play
it high res, full screen, with 256 colors. It is very smooth, although the
full colors makes it unacceptably choppy IMO. On the other hand, I have only
played SS on an "average" machine - my 486DX 33 with 4 megs of RAM. Here, I
play full screened and medium resolution. I still notice some choppiness, it
isn't nearly as smooth as DOOM, but it far out performs UW with a much smaller
scrren. I'd think if I ran it on a Pentium with sufficient RAM, I'd get
performance similar to Marathon. In this aspect, I'd rate both games as equal.
If you were to design a spectrum, with DOOM being at the action end and, say
Ultima U-World being at the adventure end, I'd rate it as something like this:
DOOM Wolfenstein SO Marathon PID SS UW
SS could move either direction depending on how you configure it, but I doubt
it would move to either side of its neighbors.
However, if you were to do it in terms of complexity within the game engine,
I'd place it like this:
SS UW* Marathon DOOM PID Wolf/SO
(*UW can't be played full screen, however.)
In terms of graphics, well, Marathon just blows all the above mentioned games
away. You still have that typical "up close and blocky" PC feel with SS -
*but* the CD ROM version of SS is due out any day. The CD version will have
SVGA support if you can meet the excessive system requirements, plus an
improved VGA support. Right now, I rank it as slighly better than DOOM except
for the sprites. The CD version will improve the VGA resolution from 320 x 200
to 324 x 400. I have a SVGA card, but I don't have the RAM to run it. But
I'll check it out and let you know how it looks at the very least when it comes
out.
The control differs from Marathon as well. It is pretty much mouse driven,
althoug I like to conrl my basic movement with the keyboard and my "technical"
movement with the mouse. Even in full screen-mode, you have a TON of little
icon surrounding the screen - 3 inventories, a weapons icon, computer icons, a
body position icon, a map icon, etc ... it is a far more technical game that
Marathon. You also don't have the straight ahead view point of DOOM and
Marathon - you can be walking in one direction and shooting in another with
your mouse. You also pick things up and use item with your mouse, not simply
run over them or just have them in your inventory.
In terms of mood - well, DOOM, Marathon, and SS have all had quite and emotion
effect on me, but in different ways. DOOM caused me to jump out of me seat
more than once, out of surprise and fear. SS would scare the shit out of me
with pure atmosphere - a haunted house kind of feel. The game is incrediably
eerie, but not adreneline-rushing in it method. Marathon has a little bit of
both, I don't get the run-for-my-life feelings I do with DOOM, and I don't get
the watch-every-step-I-take feelings of SS. Marathon achieves a nice balance
between the two. Although, I haven't had the benefit of playing Marathon
alone, in the dark, and with headphones as I have with the other two. My
experience has been limited to playing at work.
The creatures in SS aren't aliens - you basically battle mutants which are very
scary of robots; powerful but not frightening. It's like beating on a killer
trashcan sometimes. The sacriest pasrt of SS is often the email you recieve
from the posseses computers - threats such as "enter this room and I will kill
you" seem very similar to the email you get in level 3 of Marathon. The
Marathon aliens are about on par with SS's mutants, but none of them have the
threatening power of DOOM's demons.
In a nutshell, you might want to go nag those PC gamers down the floor if
you're really interested in 3D games and like to see what's going on. If you
enjoy Marathon purely for the action content, SS might not interest you. But,
if the exploratory aspect is what turns you on, check this game out. If the
cutting edge of "interactive worlds" is what appeals to you in games, I'd
definately say check this one one. It does much, much more than DOOM,
Marathon, or anything else, but it certainly isn't as pretty. At least not
until the CD version, I hope. It is also important to consider before going on
the DOOM-slamfest band wagon, since it is more the ultimate 3D PC game to be
compared to, IMO.
I hope this lengthy post isn't too off topic, but since it was inquired about
and related to the all the DOOM and Marthon threads, I thought I'd offer my
thoughts. On another aside, the PC vs. Mac threads get old ... how about
approaching computer gaming as a whole for a change? I get excited when an
advancement is made on any platform, since it pushes the edge forward (with
time) elsewhere eventually. This stupid bickering makes the comp.sys hieracry
look like the Sega and Nintendo groups at times.
Take care,
j
Aaron Giles
the Avatar.) wrote:
> However, if you were to do it in terms of complexity within the game engine,
> I'd place it like this:
>
> SS UW* Marathon DOOM PID Wolf/SO
>
Interesting post. However, I question why you think the SO engine ranks
down with Wolf? SO supports angles walls and floors like SS, which
neither PID nor Wolf support. And it supports textured floors/ceiling
which Wolf can't do (and which was only tacked onto PID for the PowerPC
version). It would seem that SO should be next to DOOM:
SS UW* Marathon DOOM SO PID Wolf
Just MHO. Good, level-headed discussion of the games, though. Rare in
these parts!
Aaron
--
Aaron Giles (gi...@med.cornell.edu)
Power Macintosh Developer, Cornell University Medical College
JPEGView home page: http://www.med.cornell.edu/jpegview.html
JPEGView FTP site: ftp://ftp.med.cornell.edu/pub/jpegview/
Kevin Hendrickson
JDCA...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (murpes, the Avatar.) writes:
[very good comparison snipped for brevity]
> I hope this lengthy post isn't too off topic, but since it was inquired about
> and related to the all the DOOM and Marthon threads, I thought I'd offer my
> thoughts. On another aside, the PC vs. Mac threads get old ... how about
> approaching computer gaming as a whole for a change? I get excited when an
> advancement is made on any platform, since it pushes the edge forward (with
> time) elsewhere eventually. This stupid bickering makes the comp.sys hieracry
> look like the Sega and Nintendo groups at times.
Thanks for the info about System Shock. I wonder if there are gif files
around on the net so we can check out the environment? Time to check
comp.sys.ibmpc.game hierarchy. I totally agree with you about the PC vs
Mac threads. It so often degenerates to schoolboy name-calling. I much
prefer talking about the relative merits of the games themselves
without such nonsense.
It seems like System Shock bears looking into. Maybe I missed this in
your post, but is there any netplay in SS? It would be really
interesting to have netgames where you can do all the actions that SS
allows. Imagine: someone approaches you with a rocket launcher, she
smiles, and launches one at your head. You also smile as you drop to
the floor and lob two grenades at her face. She leans to the left just
enough to avoid the grenades which plow into someone who was sneaking
up from behind her to blast the both of you. Cool! Also how difficult
is it to handle all the key combinations to do the different actions
(jump, duck, lean)? I remember a game called Splatter that had an
incredible plethora of actions, but manipulating the keyboard to do
them was quite difficult. I'm actually surprised that nobody has
mentioned Splatter yet as another Mac 1st person 3D game. Maybe few
people played it when it came out.
> Take care,
> j
Will do.
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
Kevin Hendrickson "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog."
hndr...@museum.cl.msu.edu ruff...@aol.com Nyabinghi Warrior
hend...@clunix.cl.msu.edu hend...@student.msu.edu _DreaD_
Marc Nimchuk
: : Alright, I've heard a ton of Marathon vs DOOM comparisons,
Most DOOM people dont seem to like *anything* that doesnt have D-O-O-M in
the title...
...observation only...
Marc Nimchuk
: In article <3c7oqc$l...@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, ome...@eng.umd.edu (Wilbur S.
: Peng) wrote:
: -Eric
Mark Adams? You're kidding?!
If anyone could make this work on a mac, he's the man...
Mark?! You out there?
Andrew Barry
: : Alright, I've heard a ton of Marathon vs DOOM comparisons,
: : but from people's descriptions, Marathon has certain
: : similarities with the PC game System Shock. Anyone
: : have any comments?
Ummmm. IMHO, System Shock is far superior to DOOM and Marathon. While
Marathon is superior to Doom with the ability to look up and down, and
there is slightly more emphasis on 'puzzle' solving, both DOOM and
Marathon are of the 'solve/fight a level and then move on to the next
level genre'.
In System Shock, you travel from level to level via elevators, and can
return to levels that you have 'secured' (useful for visiting
surgeries/energy stations). In addition, System Shock has absolutely
brilliant elevator muzak, a hilarious counterpoint to the creepy
background music.
System Shock has a wide range of drugs to pick up (med kits, staminups,
berserker drugs, reaction drugs, etc) which also have amusing side
effects - using the berserker drugs is a fairly bizaare experience (lots
of coloured lights).
System Shock has sloping walls + passages, and also has bridges (actually
translucent bridges).
Your character can look up/down, can lean left/right, and can also crawl
and crouch. Good technique is to lean around a corner to see what's
ahead, rather than just charging about the place (ala Doom).
System Shock has a wide range of weapons (ranging from Lead Pipe to
Plasma Rifle), and has the remarkably useful capacity to be able to
change clips when you want to (as opposed to Marathon, where your only
option is to fire the remaining bullets in the clip, if you suspect that
you're going to be jumped any minute). OTOH, System Shock doesn't
auto-load clips either, which is a bit of a bummer.
System shock has a much wider range of monsters than Marathon (ranging
from different styles of robots, through to many different types of
mutants), including many different styles of terrain (dingy corridors to
outdoor style) including many more objects (chairs, tables, bushes, etc).
The plot in System Shock is far more involved than any similar style
game, with you working against a mad AI (sigh), which is trying to kill
everybody on Earth, which progressively concentrates more attention on
killing you, as you foil it's successive plans (a reasonable enough
escalation ploy).
Cyberspace also makes an appearance in System Shock - and all I've got to
say is: 'Give me a GUI! or at least a command line!'.
In summary, System Shock is a far more involved game than either Doom,
Marathon, or Sensory Overload (which I've all played). It isn't a rampage
game, but it's the closest thing I've seen to a point of view RPG. (Now
if they could add in some interaction).
Compared to System Shock, Marathon is Doom.
MarkA38
mnim...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Marc Nimchuk) writes:
>> Mark?! You out there?
I'm here, just quiet :)
I can't talk about System Shock yet, other than to comment on the PC
version. The couple long reviews I've seen so far in this thread
described it well though. Its a true 6 degree of movement 3D world, with
a really slick physics system (objects you throw bounce of the walls &
roll down inclines, if you shoot a robot on a ledge it may fall off (and
even crush another robot below), etc.). The lighting effects and music
make it very spooky, and even though its more exploration & plot oriented
than Doom, if you just want to shoot stuff you can set up the game at the
beginning to reduce the level of non-combat game play.
The CD version was just released on the PC, and it includes more cool
stuff - full voice for all the email messages & data logs (It makes the
messages you get from the AI, Shodan, even more scary). Plus high res
graphics (up to 1024x768) and high res cinematic scenes (intro, endgame,
etc.). I'd hazard a guess if Origin did announce they were doing it for
the Mac, it would be based on the CD version :)
Mark Adams
erik ellestad
> I hope this lengthy post isn't too off topic, but since it was inquired about
> and related to the all the DOOM and Marthon threads, I thought I'd offer my
> thoughts. On another aside, the PC vs. Mac threads get old ... how about
> approaching computer gaming as a whole for a change? I get excited when an
> advancement is made on any platform, since it pushes the edge forward (with
> time) elsewhere eventually. This stupid bickering makes the comp.sys hieracry
> look like the Sega and Nintendo groups at times.
>
> Take care,
> j
>
j,
No, thanks for the info. Also it is good to hear from a semi-
rational voice! (though having access to both pc and Mac com-
puters makes that sort of attitude a lot easier! <g> But, hey,
every house should have two computers dedicated to games. The
world would be a lot quieter/safer place. Sure wish I could play
Marathon at work though. Or X-Wing at home for that matter...)
erik
ejel...@dnai.com
Jeff Hegedus
> I can't talk about System Shock yet, other than to comment on the PC
> version. The couple long reviews I've seen so far in this thread
> described it well though. Its a true 6 degree of movement 3D world, with
> a really slick physics system (objects you throw bounce of the walls &
> roll down inclines, if you shoot a robot on a ledge it may fall off (and
> even crush another robot below), etc.). The lighting effects and music
> make it very spooky, and even though its more exploration & plot oriented
> than Doom, if you just want to shoot stuff you can set up the game at the
> beginning to reduce the level of non-combat game play.
>
> The CD version was just released on the PC, and it includes more cool
> stuff - full voice for all the email messages & data logs (It makes the
> messages you get from the AI, Shodan, even more scary). Plus high res
> graphics (up to 1024x768) and high res cinematic scenes (intro, endgame,
> etc.). I'd hazard a guess if Origin did announce they were doing it for
> the Mac, it would be based on the CD version :)
>
> Mark Adams
Mark you do fabulous work, but you HAVE to port EA's Navy Fighter's to the
mac!!!! A game that looks even better than (gasp) FA-18 2.0.
Does EA let you know their sales numbers? Did your CYAC for mac sell well?
(A fabulous port BTW) Do you think they would even consider bring U.S. Navy
Fighters to the Mac? (Would writing to EA be worthwhile or a futile effort?)
Also if it is brought to the Mac, it should be PowerPC only...this game
can't even run all the bells and whistles on a Pentimum 90....
Good luck on System Shock.....
Death
(Jeff Hegedus) wrote:
> Does EA let you know their sales numbers? Did your CYAC for mac sell well?
> (A fabulous port BTW) Do you think they would even consider bring U.S. Navy
> Fighters to the Mac? (Would writing to EA be worthwhile or a futile effort?)
I'd at least venture to say that EA is one of the "good guys". That is, at
least they are promoting Mac gaming (as opposed to Sierra On-Line and
Origin who don't do squat).
Their work is well appreciated, and I'd wish they'd port some of their
submarine games to the mac! There are no good sub simulations for the
mac..
Later...
_O_ _O_
| Death |
Jeff Hegedus
de...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Death) wrote:
> Their work is well appreciated, and I'd wish they'd port some of their
> submarine games to the mac! There are no good sub simulations for the
> mac..
>
> Later...
They are, they EA publishes NovaLogic, which are getting ready to release
WolfPack to the Mac....
Round Waffle
understand the degree to game-suckage being dealt with here. Origin,
renowned for remarkably non-optimized code, hit a new level of
programming ingenuity with System Shock, cleverly making it a program
bulky and buggy enough to even make Microsoft proud. The demo is 1)
slow on a 486/66, and 2) crashes whimsically every few minutes.
Frankly, I was upset, since I was hoping something good would come out
of the dearth of Doom-esque engines coming out lately.
Oh well.. maybe a version 2.0 will come out sometime.
--
+- eg...@student.umass.edu --><-- Eat Some Paste -+
+- Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, -+
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+----------------- The Durex Blender Corporation ----------------+
MarkA38
(Round Waffle) writes:
> Origin, renowned for remarkably non-optimized code, hit a new level of
> programming ingenuity with System Shock, cleverly making it a program
> bulky and buggy enough to even make Microsoft proud. The demo is 1)
> slow on a 486/66, and 2) crashes whimsically every few minutes.
Well 1) Origin didn't write System Shock, so whether they know how to
write code or not doesn't matter, 2) LookingGlass Technologies did write
the game, and they are well known for doing very high class &
technologically impressive games (Underworld I & II), 3) You are basing
the fact that a game is buggy & slow from playing a demo that was released
weeks before the game was finished? The release game runs fine on my
486/50 (with cheesy ISA video), is incredibly fluid on a 66, and I played
40+ hours without a crash.
Mark Adams
Paul Philion
: Well 1) Origin didn't write System Shock, so whether they know how to
: write code or not doesn't matter, 2) LookingGlass Technologies did write
: the game, and they are well known for doing very high class &
: technologically impressive games (Underworld I & II), 3) You are basing
: the fact that a game is buggy & slow from playing a demo that was released
: weeks before the game was finished? The release game runs fine on my
: 486/50 (with cheesy ISA video), is incredibly fluid on a 66, and I played
: 40+ hours without a crash.
Mark -
How do you think System Shock whould run on a 486DX2/66 Reply card that
I'm thinking about putting in my 660?
(I'm getting the card *strictly* for cross-platform development, it has
nothing to do with playing games... Yea, right 8-) )
Thanks!
- Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------
phi...@bnr.ca | I'll be right back | Paul Philion | tel:404.246.2888
| as soon as I crack | OPC GUI Guru | fax:404.246.2395
"I said what?" | the one that got away | BNR Atlanta | esn: 6.299.2888
ST10...@brownvm.brown.edu
>: write code or not doesn't matter, 2) LookingGlass Technologies did write
>: the game, and they are well known for doing very high class &
>: technologically impressive games (Underworld I & II), 3) You are basing
>: the fact that a game is buggy & slow from playing a demo that was released
>: weeks before the game was finished? The release game runs fine on my
>: 486/50 (with cheesy ISA video), is incredibly fluid on a 66, and I played
>: 40+ hours without a crash.
>
I don't know who wrote it, but company name on the back of the System Shock
box is Origin.
MarkA38
writes:
> How do you think System Shock whould run on a 486DX2/66 Reply card that
> I'm thinking about putting in my 660?
It should run great, a friend of mine at Apple ran Shock on the Houdini II
card and said it was very fast.