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Census

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 10:27:22 AM10/17/02
to
Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.

Most active players since 10/10/2002, midnight EDT

Exile Name Hours Profession
---------- ----- ----------
1. Algernon 95.83 healer
2. K'Pyn 79.67 fighter
3. Aughra 64.00 fighter
4. Manx 62.17 healer
5. Gorvin 56.50 fighter
6. Kirth Gersen 55.00 healer
7. Kintok 49.00 fighter
8. Lucio 48.67 fighter
9. Michael 47.17 fighter
10. Sabbit 45.83 fighter
11. Fantasia 45.17 healer
12. Habbakuk Lal 44.67 fighter
13. Calil 40.33 fighter
14. Hrothgar 40.17 fighter
15. Zorak 39.50 healer
16. Natas 39.33 fighter
17. Murur 39.00 healer
18. Afrit 38.17 fighter
19. Leos 36.83 fighter
20. Thorin 35.00 fighter

(Hours are approximate.)

To those exiles, who clan like it's a full time job, Census salutes
you.

More information is available at

http://census.clanlord.net

More reports, kept current to within 10 minutes, will soon be
available there. Also more information about Census an the nature of
his work.

If you enjoy and appreciate this type of information, give Census some
thanks when you see him. He's in the lands every 10 minutes, starting
at 5 minutes past the hour.

Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 11:50:33 AM10/17/02
to
On 10/17/02 10:27 AM, in the great literary work
21b16135.0210...@posting.google.com, the profound and prolific
Census of Cen...@clanlord.net articulated:

> Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.

Cool! I like it.

--
Michael HWC for Monolith

"VIM! Very important monsters. Send them over a 5-course exile
dinner to make sure their stay in the Lok'grotons is comfortable. =)"
- - Kodo

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 11:57:08 AM10/17/02
to
In article <B9D45311.E9642%monolith@REMOVE*THISneo.rr.com>,

"Michael Welsh (AKA Monolith)" <monolith@REMOVE*THISneo.rr.com> wrote:

> On 10/17/02 10:27 AM, in the great literary work
> 21b16135.0210...@posting.google.com, the profound and prolific
> Census of Cen...@clanlord.net articulated:
>
> > Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.
>
> Cool! I like it.

I didn't see the original post. Can someone fwd?

Thanks!

--
You have to remove stuff from my e-mail to reply, it's not difficult.
Everything here is my personal opinion, do with it what you will.

"I can't remember what she did that pissed me off but I know it was something
stupid and that my opinion was justified" -Outcast

"[T]he idea of a game with people nicer than in CL makes me wanna puke."
-Michael

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 12:42:51 PM10/17/02
to

Got the article. Thanks. Here's a note I fired off to Census...

---

I thought you were going to do "# of players on-line during various
time-slots". Interesting graphs would be:

* # of players every 10 min for the past 24 hrs
* # of players in 10 min slots for past week
* # of players in 10 min slots for past month
* # of players in 10 min slots for past year
* # of players in 10 min slots for all of recorded history

And

* # of players in 10 min slots for this month, last year.

Obviously, you won't have much of that data until next year -- but I
think those kinds of graphs would be interesting. It's also data that
DT doesn't have (I think. I don't know, maybe they do.) The stuff you
reported in csmga is pretty-much info we already have.

---

Of course, everyone's biggest fear is that you're going to put the power
of the database to figuring out which people have the same characters.
That is, you'll figure out that Chum and Outcast are never on together,
but always occupy the same time-slot when they ARE on, hence, we're the
same PWC. Or whatever.

Hidden

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 3:59:24 PM10/17/02
to
In article <HelpfulGM-7E786...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

> Of course, everyone's biggest fear is that you're going to put the power
> of the database to figuring out which people have the same characters.
> That is, you'll figure out that Chum and Outcast are never on together,
> but always occupy the same time-slot when they ARE on, hence, we're the
> same PWC. Or whatever.

No no, that's MY job!

--
HWC for Hidden <hid...@noDASHop.com>
"America Online -- So easy to use, no wonder
the internet is full of morons."

Manx

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 4:28:33 PM10/17/02
to

Census wrote:

>Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.
>
>Most active players since 10/10/2002, midnight EDT
>
> Exile Name Hours Profession
> ---------- ----- ----------
>1. Algernon 95.83 healer
>2. K'Pyn 79.67 fighter
>3. Aughra 64.00 fighter
>4. Manx 62.17 healer
>5. Gorvin 56.50 fighter
>

Census is a blast! This kind of information is really fun
to have. Thank you for the work you put into it.

The only thing more scary than having actually clanned
over 60 hours in one week, is knowing that I clanned
more than Gorvin!

For anyone curious about the stats I pulled in during that
62 hour week, I only now wish I kept better track so I
could share that additional information. Anyway here are
some estimates: At a 1800 (approximately) rank level, I
earned around 13 ranks, and I made maybe 100 coppers
an hour (all invested into repairing broken/worn items).
The majority of hard-core rank whoring I do is during
post-primetime and 8 a.m. Pacific weekdays. I easily
accumulated well over 900 units of pleasure thanks to my
CL pals, DT, and Pengy's ingeniously clever area design
skills.

SWC Manx

-who roleplays a hard-core rank whore


Michael

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Oct 17, 2002, 7:37:37 PM10/17/02
to
Census <Cen...@clanlord.net> wrote:

> Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.
>
> Most active players since 10/10/2002, midnight EDT
>
> Exile Name Hours Profession
> ---------- ----- ----------
> 1. Algernon 95.83 healer
> 2. K'Pyn 79.67 fighter
> 3. Aughra 64.00 fighter
> 4. Manx 62.17 healer
> 5. Gorvin 56.50 fighter
> 6. Kirth Gersen 55.00 healer
> 7. Kintok 49.00 fighter
> 8. Lucio 48.67 fighter
> 9. Michael 47.17 fighter

Top 10, woohoo!

Michael

Michael

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Oct 17, 2002, 7:37:37 PM10/17/02
to
Manx <bat...@mac.smoke.com> wrote:


> Census is a blast! This kind of information is really fun
> to have. Thank you for the work you put into it.

Yep, Census rocks. Anyone out there who doesnt like him must be some
kind of looser fuck. (you know who you are, now go die)


> SWC Manx
>
> -who roleplays a hard-core rank whore

Yea, thats what i do too. I just RP a rank whore. Who would have
thought that I was the best damn RPer in the game.

Michael

Phelps

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Oct 17, 2002, 9:02:20 PM10/17/02
to
In article <21b16135.0210...@posting.google.com>,
Cen...@clanlord.net (Census) wrote (quoted in its entirety for H-GM):

I think it is interesting that no mystics or wannabe mystics made the
top 20. Where does the first mysfit (real mysfit) place?


HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World
obBalanceTaxSDB

--
"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually
idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of
us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched.
He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to
despair." -- H.L. Mencken

Census

unread,
Oct 17, 2002, 11:09:19 PM10/17/02
to
On 10/17/02 9:02 PM, in article
phelps-A36B88....@netnews.attbi.com, "Phelps" <phe...@attbi.com>
wrote:


> I think it is interesting that no mystics or wannabe mystics made the
> top 20. Where does the first mysfit (real mysfit) place?

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Mystic activity since 10/10/2002 Midnight EDT

Rank Exile Hours Profession
---- ---------------- ----- ------------------
27 Neige 34.67 mystic, journeyman
30 Phiros 33.50 mystic, journeyman
46 Rincewind 26.67 mystic, journeyman
84 Behr 17.17 mystic, journeyman
102 Cusea 15.33 mystic, apprentice
115 Hepta 14.33 mystic, full
124 Ruby 13.83 mystic, journeyman
141 Lundar 12.00 mystic, full
153 Ezi 11.33 mystic, journeyman
157 Akisha 11.17 mystic, apprentice
221 ShadowEarth 7.67 mystic, journeyman
233 Sutai 7.50 mystic, full
254 Laiy 6.33 mystic, apprentice
260 Valtrim 6.17 mystic, full
279 Pluto 5.50 mystic, apprentice
281 Min'dra 5.50 mystic, journeyman
289 Rylleho 5.17 mystic, journeyman
294 Zorton 5.17 mystic, full
295 Vizer 5.17 mystic, apprentice
312 Salandra 4.67 mystic, full
327 Callia 4.33 mystic, full
333 Kahlon 4.17 mystic, apprentice
341 Ragi 4.00 mystic, journeyman
345 Zandos 4.00 mystic, apprentice

Hours are approximate.
Rank is relative to other exiles.

-- Census

Lex

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:07:19 AM10/18/02
to
> I think it is interesting that no mystics or wannabe mystics made the
> top 20. Where does the first mysfit (real mysfit) place?
>
>
> HWC for Phelps
> obPhelpses of the World
> obBalanceTaxSDB

That, of course, is a secret ;)

Lex

Hidden

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:00:03 AM10/18/02
to
In article <B9D4F3AF.16DF%cl...@clanlord.net>,
Census <cl...@clanlord.net> wrote:

> On 10/17/02 9:02 PM, in article
> phelps-A36B88....@netnews.attbi.com, "Phelps" <phe...@attbi.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think it is interesting that no mystics or wannabe mystics made the
> > top 20. Where does the first mysfit (real mysfit) place?
>
> Ask, and ye shall receive:
>
> Mystic activity since 10/10/2002 Midnight EDT
>
> Rank Exile Hours Profession
> ---- ---------------- ----- ------------------
> 27 Neige 34.67 mystic, journeyman
> 30 Phiros 33.50 mystic, journeyman
> 46 Rincewind 26.67 mystic, journeyman
> 84 Behr 17.17 mystic, journeyman
> 102 Cusea 15.33 mystic, apprentice

Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic clanners,
none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?

Promote Phiros, Rincewind, and Behr NOW! ;)

> Hours are approximate.
> Rank is relative to other exiles.

Another interesting heuristic would be what hour a given exile is most
likely to be clanning, if that isn't too invasive. Could be useful for
tracking down people you want to talk to.

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:30:49 AM10/18/02
to
In article <hidden-E5C020....@news.stanford.edu>,
Hidden <hid...@no-op.com> wrote:

> Another interesting heuristic would be what hour a given exile is most
> likely to be clanning, if that isn't too invasive. Could be useful for
> tracking down people you want to talk to.

Seems invasive (and darned close to "clanning habbits", which Census
says he will not release.

I was pleased to see that "how many clanning" is a planned feature,
though. So you could try to clan when many or few are on. (Like, the
race to log-in 20 minutes before the lunch-break crowd to hunt-out South
Forest. Then there will be a "20-before-noon" crowd, and folks will
have to beat THEM by 20 minutes. Etc... :)

Lex

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:37:11 AM10/18/02
to
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic clanners,
> none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
> clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?

When you reach full mystic, you've "won". The game is over.

Lex

Census

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 1:52:03 AM10/18/02
to
On 10/18/02 12:00 AM, in article
hidden-E5C020....@news.stanford.edu, "Hidden" <hid...@no-op.com>
wrote:

> Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic clanners,
> none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
> clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?

This data is for the past 7 days only. It would make sense, because non-full
mystics need to be out more to advance.


> Another interesting heuristic would be what hour a given exile is most
> likely to be clanning, if that isn't too invasive. Could be useful for
> tracking down people you want to talk to.

It's very easy to generate that, but I have to get a sense if people feel
that's too specific. Thoughts?


Simsu

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Oct 18, 2002, 2:27:56 AM10/18/02
to
Hidden wrote:

>Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic clanners,
>none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
>clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?
>

Maybe because after becoming a FM everyone treats you like you're a
traitor and tell you that you didn't earn becoming a FM? As I've said
before it's surprising that people can run around and bad mouth mystics
and tell them how useless they re and bitch and whine and moan about it,
and then get angry when a mystic doesn't drop everything to come running
at the beckon call of every asinine fighter who thinks they are gods.

salandra

Kirth Gersen

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Oct 18, 2002, 4:05:00 AM10/18/02
to
Cen...@clanlord.net (Census) wrote in message news:<21b16135.0210...@posting.google.com>...

> Census is pleased to announce progress in his research.
>
> Most active players since 10/10/2002, midnight EDT
>
> Exile Name Hours Profession
> ---------- ----- ----------
> 1. Algernon 95.83 healer
> 2. K'Pyn 79.67 fighter
> 3. Aughra 64.00 fighter
> 4. Manx 62.17 healer
> 5. Gorvin 56.50 fighter
> 6. Kirth Gersen 55.00 healer


Ummm... where do I send the money to keep this info away from my OOC
wife and employer?

/Kirth and HWC

Lundar

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Oct 18, 2002, 7:42:42 AM10/18/02
to
Hidden writes:

>Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic
clanners,
>none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
>clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?

I would hardly consider a week's worth of data to be a representative
sampling of mystic clanning patterns, or the clanning patterns of any
exile, for that matter.

Ignoring this for a moment though, your comparison is ridiculous. The
top 5 listed exiles(which even includes a healer bot) are extreme
values which are not even close to being representative samples of
those in their profession. The top 5 exiles together average about
71.6 hours of clanning time-- that's more 10 hours a day spent playing
CL! If you are expecting me, or any other mystic, to spend 10 hours a
day playing Clan Lord, simply because a small minority of fighters and
healers do so, you are going to be sorely disapointed.

Some suggestions:

While a listing of the most active players over a one week period is
of some interest, and provides "bragging rights" for some players, it
is nothing more than interesting trivia, and is a far cry from an
accurate representation of the exile population (numbering more than
1300 by Census's own estimates).

What would be of more relevance, imo, would be a complete listing of
all exiles, and the ammount of time they put into Clan Lord (over the
course of several months), along with the mean values of clanning
times for each of the professions, omitting the most extreme values.

I do forsee that the number of hours that mystics spend playing CL
will still be lower than that of fighters and healers(simply because
the main activity in CL is hunting, which most mystics do not
participate in), but the differences will likely be less dramatic than
the current comparisons being made between mystics and the 70hrs/wk
crowd.

Finally, it would also be helpful to see mystic clanning information
in relation to timezones. I've always heard complaints about mystics
not being available when needed, and it would be interesting to see
which timezones are being covered adequately, and which ones are being
neglected. This could be done anonymously if necessary, to address
privacy issues.

-PWC Lundar

Haenk

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Oct 18, 2002, 11:26:12 AM10/18/02
to
Manx <bat...@mac.smoke.com> wrote in message news:<

> >4. Manx 62.17 healer

> earned around 13 ranks, and I made maybe 100 coppers

This is what bothers me.

I usually get about 1 rank from the super-advanced lib per day, given
that you clanned 9 hours per day, the library maybe gave you only 6
ranks in that week. So that leaves us with 1 additional rank per day -
gained in 9 OOC hours of clanning.

There is certainly something wrong in the rank-gaining system, as I
estimated about the same numbers for me. A multi-hour hunt with
several fighters and others sharing rarely gives me more than one and
seldomly two message advancements. The ranking balance fighter -
healer seems gone (no idea about the mystics, thats secret I guess
<g>), this is something DT has to think about.


Haenk

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 11:33:39 AM10/18/02
to
In article <72ba113d.02101...@posting.google.com>,
lod...@hotmail.com (Lundar) wrote:

> Ignoring this for a moment though, your comparison is ridiculous. The
> top 5 listed exiles(which even includes a healer bot) are extreme
> values which are not even close to being representative samples of
> those in their profession. The top 5 exiles together average about
> 71.6 hours of clanning time-- that's more 10 hours a day spent playing
> CL! If you are expecting me, or any other mystic, to spend 10 hours a
> day playing Clan Lord, simply because a small minority of fighters and
> healers do so, you are going to be sorely disapointed.

Even skipping that part -- didn't Census say that he had data for over
1300 exiles in the 1st week? So the "top 5" is *WAY* out on the edge of
the bell curve. Even the top 130 is still "top 10%." As I recall, Clan
Lord had a hoped-for distribution of something like 65% fighters, 33%
healers, 2% mystics. So, finding ANY mystics in the "top 10%" would be
an oddity.

Also note the falacy of calling it the "top 10", with the implication
that these people are somehow "top performers" or "top notch" or
otherwise somehow better than the "next 10." "More is better,
therefore, lots more is lots better" doesn't apply to a lot of things
and one of them is hours spent Clanning. In the "don't forget to eat &
sleep" ethic, these people could be considered the "bottom 10" -- those
who mose forgot to eat & sleep ;)

---

But that's not the point. Hidden's point is that it's a pain that
certain tasks require a mystic and mystics are rare. Just like it's a
pain that certain tasks require salamander eggs, and salamander eggs are
rare. This is by design, intentional, and fun. Note that not
EVERYTHING requires a rare ingredient, only some things. This is fun.
You are having fun. Repeat after me... ;)

Lex

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 11:42:36 AM10/18/02
to
> But that's not the point. Hidden's point is that it's a pain that
> certain tasks require a mystic and mystics are rare. Just like it's a
> pain that certain tasks require salamander eggs, and salamander eggs are
> rare. This is by design, intentional, and fun. Note that not
> EVERYTHING requires a rare ingredient, only some things. This is fun.
> You are having fun. Repeat after me... ;)

It's really insulting to have someone else tell you what you think or what
you should think or what you should like. It's one thing to say that a
feature was put in to be fun, or that even if you don't like it many others
so. It's another thing to tell someone, "YOU are having fun right now, even
if you don't think so."

Lex

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 11:48:37 AM10/18/02
to
In article <a74fdc6b.0210...@posting.google.com>,
ha...@mac.com (Haenk) wrote:

> Manx <bat...@mac.smoke.com> wrote in message news:<
>
> > >4. Manx 62.17 healer
>

> > [at the estimated 1800 rank level...]earned around 13 ranks, and


> > I made maybe 100 coppers

> This is what bothers me.
>
> I usually get about 1 rank from the super-advanced lib per day, given
> that you clanned 9 hours per day, the library maybe gave you only 6
> ranks in that week. So that leaves us with 1 additional rank per day -
> gained in 9 OOC hours of clanning.
>
> There is certainly something wrong in the rank-gaining system, as I
> estimated about the same numbers for me. A multi-hour hunt with
> several fighters and others sharing rarely gives me more than one and
> seldomly two message advancements. The ranking balance fighter -
> healer seems gone (no idea about the mystics, thats secret I guess
> <g>), this is something DT has to think about.

Sorry to seem dense, but I missed your statement of the problem (and
proposed solution, other than "DT should think about it.") Which part
of what you said is the thing that you think is a problem?

Thanks!

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:02:15 PM10/18/02
to
In article <aopa5i$7bu$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, "Lex" <co...@mac.com>
wrote:

> > You are having fun. Repeat after me... ;)

> It's really insulting to have someone else tell you what you think or what
> you should think or what you should like. It's one thing to say that a
> feature was put in to be fun, or that even if you don't like it many others
> so. It's another thing to tell someone, "YOU are having fun right now, even
> if you don't think so."

See the ;) ? That's the "I'm joking around wink" emoticon. Also
"repeat after me..." is sort of a cartoony thing to say, indicating the
humourous nature of the statement.

It's really insulting to be told that you're being insulting everty time
you try to put a little levity into something or say something in a
friendly and light-hearted way.

You know what I mean. You understand completely. You are sorry.

Lex

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 12:54:22 PM10/18/02
to
> See the ;) ? That's the "I'm joking around wink" emoticon. Also
> "repeat after me..." is sort of a cartoony thing to say, indicating the
> humourous nature of the statement.

Okay, then I apologize.

> It's really insulting to be told that you're being insulting everty time
> you try to put a little levity into something or say something in a
> friendly and light-hearted way.

Well sometimes it's not obvious what your intentions are. Or maybe I just
haven't been posting to usenet very long.

> You know what I mean. You understand completely. You are sorry.
> Repeat after me... ;)

Okay - that was funny :)

Lex

Kiriel D'Sol

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 1:24:24 PM10/18/02
to
> Finally, it would also be helpful to see mystic clanning information
> in relation to timezones. I've always heard complaints about mystics
> not being available when needed, and it would be interesting to see
> which timezones are being covered adequately, and which ones are being
> neglected. This could be done anonymously if necessary, to address
> privacy issues.

Just my personal observation on this- for several weeks the number of
full mystics available during 9-midnight PDT (right after primetime) was
virtually nil. This seems to be recovering somewhat- lately I've seen
Sutai, Lundar and Valtrim around a few times during that period, and
occasionally some other mystics too. It's still not fully covered, but
it's better than it was a few weeks ago. I do think it would be useful
to have some real analysis on this over a longer period of time. I know
it was extremely frustrating on Tuesday when we had two fallens on noth
that we couldn't get to for quite a while due to the lack of mystic
availability.

I would also say this last week or so of clanning has been kinda
non-standard with the download issues going on (you know people are
having trouble getting on when you can actually find ore!). I'd expect a
study of clanning a few weeks from now to show a bit of a different
pattern.

-SWC Kiriel D'Sol

-- Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for
something, sometime in thy life.... -Elminster of Shadowdale

Census

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 2:58:07 PM10/18/02
to
lod...@hotmail.com (Lundar) wrote in message news:<72ba113d.02101...@posting.google.com>...

> I would hardly consider a week's worth of data to be a representative
> sampling of mystic clanning patterns, or the clanning patterns of any
> exile, for that matter.

I agree completely.


> Some suggestions:
>
> While a listing of the most active players over a one week period is
> of some interest, and provides "bragging rights" for some players, it
> is nothing more than interesting trivia, and is a far cry from an
> accurate representation of the exile population (numbering more than
> 1300 by Census's own estimates).

Indeed, though it's true to say that 20% of the exile population makes
up 80% of the activity. A graph would illustrate this best, and I'll
have that data soon on the site. Meantime, the more data I have, the
more meaningful this type of analysis is.


> What would be of more relevance, imo, would be a complete listing of
> all exiles, and the ammount of time they put into Clan Lord (over the
> course of several months), along with the mean values of clanning
> times for each of the professions, omitting the most extreme values.

Until I complete engineering an opt-out option for exiles to use for
usage reporting, I won't be releasing further reports that show
individual usage. But I'll see if I can release a report that contains
aggregate data with the same information.


> Finally, it would also be helpful to see mystic clanning information
> in relation to timezones. I've always heard complaints about mystics
> not being available when needed, and it would be interesting to see
> which timezones are being covered adequately, and which ones are being
> neglected. This could be done anonymously if necessary, to address
> privacy issues.

An excellent idea. Profession coverage by hour is a great idea.
Though, right now, I don't have much data for that, but in time, I
will.

Thanks for the feedback.

-- Census

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 3:43:05 PM10/18/02
to
In article <21b16135.02101...@posting.google.com>,
Cen...@clanlord.net (Census) wrote:

> > What would be of more relevance, imo, would be a complete listing of
> > all exiles, and the ammount of time they put into Clan Lord (over the
> > course of several months), along with the mean values of clanning
> > times for each of the professions, omitting the most extreme values.
>
> Until I complete engineering an opt-out option for exiles to use for
> usage reporting, I won't be releasing further reports that show
> individual usage.

I would highly recommend that this be "opt-in". For some people, to
have that data availble for even 5 minutes before they opt-out means
that someone else can have downloaded it, and can then put it in a place
where they CAN'T opt-out.

And, in general, "opt-out" is opter-unfriendly, whereas opt-in is
opter-friendly.

I'm certain that, over time, enough folks will want to opt-in as to make
for interesting viewing.

> But I'll see if I can release a report that contains
> aggregate data with the same information.

Aggregate and demographic info is always fair game, of course. Creating
a chart that shows <1 hr, 1, 2, 3...99, >99hrs played in a week, and how
many players fall into each category, for example, would be interesting.

> An excellent idea. Profession coverage by hour is a great idea.
> Though, right now, I don't have much data for that, but in time, I
> will.

Agreed. Actually, just a breakdown, as in:

1:00 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
HHHHHHHHHHHH
AAA
JJJJJ
M
2:00 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
HHHHHHHHHH
AAAAA
JJJJ
MMM

etc (use coloured bars, or whatever, if you like) would be interesting.

Hidden

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 5:20:28 PM10/18/02
to

> Ignoring this for a moment though, your comparison is ridiculous. The
> top 5 listed exiles(which even includes a healer bot) are extreme
> values which are not even close to being representative samples of
> those in their profession. The top 5 exiles together average about
> 71.6 hours of clanning time-- that's more 10 hours a day spent playing
> CL!

Divide that up among 20 mystics, and it's only a half hour a day each
(ammounting to 3.5 hours a week), but only 5 mystics put in even that
much. THAT's what I consider a bit surprising.

Ann GM

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 5:46:49 PM10/18/02
to
In article <B9D519D4.1700%cl...@clanlord.net>, Census
<cl...@clanlord.net> wrote:

> > Another interesting heuristic would be what hour a given exile is most
> > likely to be clanning, if that isn't too invasive. Could be useful for
> > tracking down people you want to talk to.
>
> It's very easy to generate that, but I have to get a sense if people feel
> that's too specific. Thoughts?

A while ago, I generated and posted some collective statistics. I
considered nearly anything with an individual character's name attached
to it to be improper to reveal. I definitely feel that reporting when
different characters clan would be too specific, mainly because it
would allow too much speculation about which characters share PWCs.

Ann

Manx

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 6:43:11 PM10/18/02
to


Haenk wrote:
Manx <bat...@mac.smoke.com> wrote in message news:<

4. Manx          62.17 healer 

earned around 13 ranks, and I made maybe 100 coppers

This is what bothers me.

I usually get about 1 rank from the super-advanced lib per day, given
that you clanned 9 hours per day, the library maybe gave you only 6
ranks in that week. So that leaves us with 1 additional rank per day -
gained in 9 OOC hours of clanning.
Yeah, well it was only an estimate. It's possible I raked in
more rankage than that. It wasn't really a typical week of
clanning for me, and the only reason I counted my ranks
(I usually never bother) is because I was invited on 3 or 4
extra big KI hunts over the holiday weekend. I made nearly
8 ranks in 2.5 days, but the rest of the week was spent
doing my more normal clanning activities (sitting around
chatting and zo-watching with the occasional rescue or
KI foray).

Part of the reason I don't gain ranks quickly is because of
the way I like to play. I prefer hooking up with a compact
group of experienced exiles when I visit challenging places.
This means fewer shares for me and less experience gained
from the stronger fighters. Fine by me. It's more about the
challenge and the company I keep than getting experience.
I'm sure if I attended or hosted different kinds of hunts and
used my clanning time more productively (actively pursuing
and maintaining high-yeild shares), I could advance much
more quickly.

I think census will be a fun tool to play with. For people who
are serious stat addicts, they can measure to their heart's
content exactly how productive their clanning time is and
adjust their habits accordingly. For the rest of us, it could just
be something fun to chat about while we sit in town.



There is certainly something wrong in the rank-gaining system, as I
estimated about the same numbers for me. A multi-hour hunt with
several fighters and others sharing rarely gives me more than one and
seldomly two message advancements. The ranking balance fighter -
healer seems gone (no idea about the mystics, thats secret I guess
<g>), this is something DT has to think about.
I'm not exactly convinced there needs to be rank-gaining parity
among the professions. It sorta feels balanced to me, because
I can still keep up with my regular groups of fighters as they
also advance in experience. If I began to fall behind - meaning no
longer able to attend them as they visited areas of greater
challenge - I'd be concerned. (Hmm... or would I just clan more
hours to make up for it? ;D )


Haenk

SWC Manx

-who roleplays a rank-whore, but quite frankly isn't very good at it.

-- 
If you need to reach me, I'm at a smoke-free address.

"In America, we get to write the script of our own lives."  -Dinesh D'souza

Phelps

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 7:37:28 PM10/18/02
to
In article <HelpfulGM-E205F...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

> In article <21b16135.02101...@posting.google.com>,
> Cen...@clanlord.net (Census) wrote:
>
> > > What would be of more relevance, imo, would be a complete listing of
> > > all exiles, and the ammount of time they put into Clan Lord (over the
> > > course of several months), along with the mean values of clanning
> > > times for each of the professions, omitting the most extreme values.
> >
> > Until I complete engineering an opt-out option for exiles to use for
> > usage reporting, I won't be releasing further reports that show
> > individual usage.
>
> I would highly recommend that this be "opt-in". For some people, to
> have that data availble for even 5 minutes before they opt-out means
> that someone else can have downloaded it, and can then put it in a place
> where they CAN'T opt-out.

We already have an "opt-out" mechanism. File->Leave Game;
Clanlord->Quit Clanlord.

Works every time. No one has a reasonable expectation that no one
will know how much they clan.


HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World are probably on the bottom of the bell curve

Sutai

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 8:34:03 PM10/18/02
to

But what about 2?, purple belts, and Earth Subclass?!?! :o Gurgi's 6?
fighter and he still does his thing, probably with the hopes of greater
achievement.

Phelps

unread,
Oct 18, 2002, 10:31:32 PM10/18/02
to
In article <abolt2-251BFE....@nnrp04.earthlink.net>,
Sutai <abo...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Gurgi didn't chose a profession that sucks.


HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World should have seen that coming

Sunoril

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Oct 18, 2002, 11:59:31 PM10/18/02
to
In article <aopa5i$7bu$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Lex <co...@mac.com> wrote:

> It's really insulting to have someone else tell you what you think or what
> you should think or what you should like. It's one thing to say that a
> feature was put in to be fun, or that even if you don't like it many others
> so. It's another thing to tell someone, "YOU are having fun right now, even
> if you don't think so."

It is 1968 or so, Christmas at Ft. Belvoir, Va. Bob Hope (or somebody
like him) has come to entertain the troops. As the army is wont to do,
a formation is held, where the first shirt announces "Bob Hope has come
to entertain the troops. You *will* go to the entertainment. And you
*will* be entertained. Now FALL OUT!"

:-)

--
HWC for Sunoril

Helpful GM

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Oct 19, 2002, 12:59:32 AM10/19/02
to
In article <phelps-C6B540....@netnews.attbi.com>,
Phelps <phe...@attbi.com> wrote:

> > I would highly recommend that this be "opt-in". For some people, to
> > have that data availble for even 5 minutes before they opt-out means
> > that someone else can have downloaded it, and can then put it in a place
> > where they CAN'T opt-out.

> We already have an "opt-out" mechanism. File->Leave Game;
> Clanlord->Quit Clanlord.
>
> Works every time. No one has a reasonable expectation that no one
> will know how much they clan.

People have a reasonable expectation that they will not be survailed,
and that survailence data will not be published in a way that makes
[electronically] stalking them simple.

The "the information is publically available" argument falls apart at
this point -- it's just like "hey, so I follow you home and watch what
you do, then follow you to work -- what's the big deal? It's I'm
staying on public streets" thing. It's stalking.

And you can argue all you want, but that's how some will feel about it.
"If you don't like the way this guy gathers info on you and publishes
it, quit playing the game" is a sure-fire way to get Census (and
everyone who helped out with him) shut-down (or it would be in Helpful
Lord -- I can't say how Joe feels about this, but I'd be surprized if he
disagreed with me.)

Clan Lord is a friendly game. For friendly adults. Census understands
this, even if you don't. I hope he will act maturely on this matter.

Althea

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 3:52:16 AM10/19/02
to
In article <aopa5i$7bu$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, "Lex" <co...@mac.com>
wrote:

> > But that's not the point. Hidden's point is that it's a pain that

I think that was a joke, Lex.

SWC Althea

Althea

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 3:54:35 AM10/19/02
to
In article <181020021446494105%a...@admin.SPAMLESSclanlord.com>,
Ann GM <a...@admin.SPAMLESSclanlord.com> wrote:

uh... its improper because its nobody's business. Sure its "public
domain" and all that, but publishing information on specific clanners
that's been gathered by a bot...

Man, I'm just not liking any of this. :(

SWC Althea

Sutai

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 5:52:44 AM10/19/02
to
In article <phelps-177365....@netnews.attbi.com>,
Phelps <phe...@attbi.com> wrote:

> In article <abolt2-251BFE....@nnrp04.earthlink.net>,
> Sutai <abo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <B9D50837.CBFD%co...@mac.com>, Lex <co...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Does anyone else find it disturbing that of the top 5 mystic clanners,
> > > > none are full mystics, and that combining the top 20 mystics, FMs
> > > > clanned a total of fewer hours than any of the top 5 exiles overall?
> > >
> > > When you reach full mystic, you've "won". The game is over.
> >
> > But what about 2?, purple belts, and Earth Subclass?!?! :o Gurgi's 6?
> > fighter and he still does his thing, probably with the hopes of greater
> > achievement.
>
> Gurgi didn't chose a profession that sucks.

Foiled again.

Neo eXo

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 8:05:40 AM10/19/02
to
In article <HelpfulGM-98B8D...@sea-read.news.verio.net>,
Helpful GM <HelpfulGM@*NO-SPAM*PlayNaked.com> wrote:

> Clan Lord is a friendly game. For friendly adults. Census understands
> this, even if you don't. I hope he will act maturely on this matter.

ok now this one had me falling out of my chair laughing.

-Neo eXo

Warren J. Dew

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 12:06:12 PM10/19/02
to
Helpful GM posts, in part:

The "the information is publically available" argument falls apart at
this point -- it's just like "hey, so I follow you home and watch what
you do, then follow you to work -- what's the big deal? It's I'm
staying on public streets" thing. It's stalking.

It's more than just that. Some of us might not mind if another player actually
playing the game had a character who stalked, but might still mind if it were
gathered automatically, by a bot, like Census. Personally, I'd like to see an
'opt out' option that would mean that Census wouldn't even gather information
on one's character - I don't even want the information available to Census'
player.

or it would be in Helpful Lord -- I can't say how Joe feels about
this, but I'd be surprized if he disagreed with me.

Is Helpful Lord even going to have a 'who-all is on' command? Not having a
player list, or allowing one to opt out of the player list, is the obvious
technical solution.

Warren J. Dew
Powderhouse Software

Axell (Nath J)

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Oct 19, 2002, 1:25:45 PM10/19/02
to
Manx <bat...@mac.smoke.com> wrote:

> -who roleplays a hard-core rank whore

Census post was about online time, not about ranks :-)
The fact that you are in the top 5 doesnt mean that you are rankwhoring.

--
Axell

Helpful GM

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Oct 19, 2002, 1:34:46 PM10/19/02
to
In article <20021019120612...@mb-fi.aol.com>,

psych...@aol.com (Warren J. Dew) wrote:

> or it would be in Helpful Lord -- I can't say how Joe feels about
> this, but I'd be surprized if he disagreed with me.
>
> Is Helpful Lord even going to have a 'who-all is on' command? Not having a
> player list, or allowing one to opt out of the player list, is the obvious
> technical solution.

...at the cost of the fun of knowing if your friends are on-line.
Sorry, HL will have the ability to know who else is on.

But it will also be a "private club", and we will boot people who can't
play nice "because I said so. No, you can't have a refund." Not
everyone is expected to enjoy this sort of atmosphere ;) (Although some
might pay a premium to play, if they agree on my definition of "riff
raff" and like the way I treat them.)

Helpful "but now we're getting sidetracked ;)" GM

Census

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 3:14:01 PM10/19/02
to
The privacy policy for Census has been revised on:

http://census.clanlord.net

In essence:

By default, exile specific usage information will not be disclosed. If you
wish your exile to be included on "top 10" lists, and the like, you can
change your privacy settings to a more relaxed level.

Census will still keep a roster of names, as well as clan association and
profession. He will also make aggregate statistics available as well.

In order to change your privacy settings, you'll need to register with
Census. Details on how to do this are on the Census web site.

But, if you do nothing at all, your exile will be excluded from
exile-specific usage reports.

I think this should put many people at ease. For any people unhappy with
having their usage disclosed in the last list, my apologies.

-- Census

Manx

unread,
Oct 19, 2002, 4:01:33 PM10/19/02
to
No, it just means I'm not a very good roleplayer. ;o) Which is why
the second response I posted on the topic has this signature:


"SWC Manx

-who roleplays a rank-whore, but quite frankly isn't very good at it."


;D

Phelps

unread,
Oct 20, 2002, 3:34:22 AM10/20/02
to
In article <althea-67B3B2....@cnews.newsguy.com>,
Althea <alt...@clanname.com> wrote:


> uh... its improper because its nobody's business. Sure its "public
> domain" and all that, but publishing information on specific clanners
> that's been gathered by a bot...
>
> Man, I'm just not liking any of this. :(

So you would feel different if the information was gathered by hand?
Or if a clan rotated people collecting it by hand?

Helpful's analogy was prtty good, until he decided to throw in the
perjurative term "stalking" in. Stalking implies that someone is being
singled out and harrassed. I haven't seen anything about Census that
would provide for that, and whoever is running it has gone above and
beyond protecting against that BEFORE the change.

You have an expectation that your CL name won't lead to your real
name (with reasonable precautions.) You have a reasonable expectation
that how you are billed will be private. You have an expressed
expectation of privacy in the Purple Tor. But when the freaking game
announces "Phelps is now clanning" everytime I hit "Join Game" then I do
not have an expectation that people won't know when I am clanning.

You have privacy in your house. You have privacy against survailence
that will be used by the government (because the government can use
force against you). You do not have a reasonable expectation that your
nosey neighbor won't make a note everytime you walk out of the house,
for whatever reason pops into her demented blue head.


HWC for Phelps
obPhelpses of the World

Althea

unread,
Oct 20, 2002, 5:16:36 AM10/20/02
to
In article <phelps-09C3DD....@netnews.attbi.com>,
Phelps <phe...@attbi.com> wrote:

>
> You have an expectation that your CL name won't lead to your real
> name (with reasonable precautions.) You have a reasonable expectation
> that how you are billed will be private. You have an expressed
> expectation of privacy in the Purple Tor. But when the freaking game
> announces "Phelps is now clanning" everytime I hit "Join Game" then I do
> not have an expectation that people won't know when I am clanning.
>
> You have privacy in your house. You have privacy against survailence
> that will be used by the government (because the government can use
> force against you). You do not have a reasonable expectation that your
> nosey neighbor won't make a note everytime you walk out of the house,
> for whatever reason pops into her demented blue head.
>

Its reasonable to expect that the game won't allow the gathering and
publication of data by a bot about my gaming habits. While the world
might know when I log on, its information they have to dig for. That's
as it should be. Should that not be the case, I'm gone.

Simple, really.

Althea

Jeff Ray

unread,
Oct 20, 2002, 1:54:09 PM10/20/02
to
> So you would feel different if the information was gathered by hand?
> Or if a clan rotated people collecting it by hand?

It would at least reduce the amount of information to what "real
Puddleby residents" could collect; this is a MMORPG, after all. With
that would come the expectation that eventually they will find something
better to do with their time and leave me alone.


> Helpful's analogy was prtty good, until he decided to throw in the
> perjurative term "stalking" in. Stalking implies that someone is being
> singled out and harrassed. I haven't seen anything about Census that
> would provide for that, and whoever is running it has gone above and
> beyond protecting against that BEFORE the change.

I thought the stalking term was dead on. I get "stalked" all the time
by companies trying to collect data about me, so they can "target" me
various purposes. In response to this, we now have a large body of laws
regarding what they can and cannot do with information they have
gathered. We have no such protection in CL.

In this case, Census stalked me by collecting information about my
character ("singled out"), and then publishing that information with my
character name still attached ("harrassed").


> You have an expectation that your CL name won't lead to your real
> name (with reasonable precautions.) You have a reasonable expectation
> that how you are billed will be private. You have an expressed
> expectation of privacy in the Purple Tor. But when the freaking game
> announces "Phelps is now clanning" everytime I hit "Join Game" then I do
> not have an expectation that people won't know when I am clanning.

The fact that the game announces this is a design flaw, not a
justification. I've posted and /bug'ed about CL''s disregard for
privacy before, but the designers haven't fixed it yet. The /info
command does not have enough safeguard build in, such as opt-outs, and
selective blocking of non-visibly-obvious details such as clan or
profession. Maybe this will help illustrate to the GM's that this
command does have a downside after all, and be moved to finally fix it.


> You have privacy in your house. You have privacy against survailence
> that will be used by the government (because the government can use
> force against you). You do not have a reasonable expectation that your
> nosey neighbor won't make a note everytime you walk out of the house,
> for whatever reason pops into her demented blue head.

I do, however, have an expectation that she won't be at it 24/7, and
then publishing a "how often each of your neighbors is out of their
house" list to the entire neighborhood. If she did that repeatedly, I
think a "cease and desist" could be justified.

-jrr

Jeff Ray

unread,
Oct 20, 2002, 2:30:19 PM10/20/02
to
Helpful GM wrote:

> > Is Helpful Lord even going to have a 'who-all is on' command? Not having a
> > player list, or allowing one to opt out of the player list, is the obvious
> > technical solution.
>
> ...at the cost of the fun of knowing if your friends are on-line.
> Sorry, HL will have the ability to know who else is on.

Fun for some but not for all. If CL had an opt-out/in for the global
player list, I'd mask myself out. I'm perfectly happy with only the
folks who see me walk past, or receive a sunstone from me, actually
knowing I'm online. Perhaps if two people have mutually befriended each
other, too, but even then I'm a bit iffy.

An optimal solution would be to let me set a flag via /option to tell
the server when to send my name out to the player list and issue log
on/off messages. Then when I'm "open for business", I can let my name
show, but when I just want to sneak out the backdoor of the library and
go do some multi-hour mystic task, I can do that without having to
repeatedly explain to every incoming share that I'm not available for
rescues.

And while I've got the soapbox, I'd like to see the /info command fixed
to only show what people can see by looking at me. That means items I
may be holding, but not profession or clan (unless I specifically enable
the clan symbol for display; and even then a really advanced game should
allow for symbols to be forged). If I'm not in the same snell
(visible), /info shouldn't show anything, including whether or not I'm
even online. If other players want to know something about me, they can
observe me or ask me; but the game engine has no business stepping in
and answering for me, particularly when I may want to give a different
answer, or no answer at all.

-jrr

Helpful GM

unread,
Oct 20, 2002, 2:47:31 PM10/20/02