Realmz: enough ideas for one year or so?
mr. self destruct
first of all, you probably all know that i am not the person to complain
about ideas. but, and this is indeed an important but, there have been so
many ideas spawned lately in c.s.m.g.adv that it would take poor tim at
least a year to implement them all. if not longer. and we all want more
than just realmz 4.0, don't we? i am thinking about new scenarios, and,
perhaps even more important to most people, a scenario editor...
so even though tons of nice ideas have been posted here, don't you think
we've reached the limit by now? if someone with some spare time could sum
them up and post a long message with all ideas (with only short
descriptions) we could vote and then see what ideas we really want. then
we could perhaps send that list off to tim and let him do as he sees
fit...
thomas
with new signature and stuff...
--
"it won't give up it wants me dead
goddamn this noise inside my head"
-NIN
mr. self destruct -- Thomas Weigle
thomas...@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://poppis.pp.se/~mink/
Kathy & Brian Gryta
Oh, gosh, you mean Tim has a day job, and maybe a social life, too? I
forgot.....Actually, my greatest fear is that Realmz will get so
popular that some larger game developer will offer to buy Tim out at a
price too high to walk away from, and then we'll never see updates or
improvements again....Kinda like why you never divulge where your
favorite fishing hole is...
Marton Carungay
And with our luck, Microsoft will be the large wanna-be game developer
that buys them out. <g>
--
Marton Carungay
mar...@earthlink.net
Always recommend Windows 95 to your competition.
Ace
In article <martonc-2106...@max4-gg-ca-39.earthlink.net>,
mar...@earthlink.net (Marton Carungay) wrote:
> In article <31CAFC...@itouch.net>, k...@itouch.net wrote:
>
> > Oh, gosh, you mean Tim has a day job, and maybe a social life, too? I
> > forgot.....Actually, my greatest fear is that Realmz will get so
> > popular that some larger game developer will offer to buy Tim out at a
> > price too high to walk away from, and then we'll never see updates or
> > improvements again....Kinda like why you never divulge where your
> > favorite fishing hole is...
>
> And with our luck, Microsoft will be the large wanna-be game developer
> that buys them out. <g>
Windoze.... Eeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww...! =P
Lemme tell ya a joke I heard about operating systems and how well they
work. This does contain some pretty offensive stuff, so do shut your eyes
if you're the sensitive type (Rick.. Quanah.. and especially thomas!)
Let's suppose all OS's are airplanes... They'd probably act like this:
UNIX would the the Fokker 7 the Germans used in the later years of the
first WW. Hard to controll, primitive, but quick and very versatile in
dogfight. Can't handle true fight, its short range stops it to be
trustfull, but sometimes people will get up and fly it for its
maneuvrability.
SunOS would the the trimotor the Ford corporation build around 1927.
Stronger than UNIX, a little bit more maneuvrable, but very limited in
speed and flexibility. Few poeple use it, and they only do it because of
its reliability on long term projects.
DOS would probably be the F-8 Sabre, the americans had around 1971.
Lightning quick, able to do things previous planes weren't even dreaming
to do, but hard as friggin' hell to controll and so UNSTABLE! People would
use it oftenly and after the fight they'd just eject from the plane near
a friednly unit instead of bringing it home.
Newton would be the MIG-21 russians used from 80 to now. Quick and
small, very good for long range attacks, but you have to flip a switch
some friggin' 50 times before the damn thing works. Limited equipment,
used very much as a reconnesaince aircraft.
MacOS would be the F/A 18 strike fighter Hornet. A fighter with all
air-to-air an air-to-ground capabilities included, very good
maneuvrability and ease of use. Incredible power and practically endless
development limited, it would be probably limited because of its slight
higher price.
Now guess what Windoze will be.
If you're out of luck/your minds, lemme give you the answer...
The answer as a matte of fact is pretty easy to even figure out: The
windoze would be the ValuJet. No comments.
Ace 'Windoze.... *pout*. Yeeeech!'
--
Can't think of anything deep/funny right now; check later in case I
have a brainstorm.
"DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form."
(New York Times)
Michael Arneson
In article <thomas.weigle-2...@dialup115-5-16.swipnet.se>,
thomas...@mailbox.swipnet.se (mr. self destruct) wrote:
> first of all, you probably all know that i am not the person to complain
> about ideas. but, and this is indeed an important but, there have been so
> many ideas spawned lately in c.s.m.g.adv that it would take poor tim at
> least a year to implement them all. if not longer. and we all want more
> than just realmz 4.0, don't we? i am thinking about new scenarios, and,
> perhaps even more important to most people, a scenario editor...
>
> so even though tons of nice ideas have been posted here, don't you think
> we've reached the limit by now? if someone with some spare time could sum
> them up and post a long message with all ideas (with only short
> descriptions) we could vote and then see what ideas we really want. then
> we could perhaps send that list off to tim and let him do as he sees
> fit...
im very satisfied with the present scenario driver (expect for my stupid
npcs which like to either cast spells through my party or walk through my
walls) what i really want for christmas is some new scenarios to register,
well i would really prefer to have one out this summer. anyway i do have
my wish list and some of them are just that wishes (meaning they would be
hard to implement so i won't waste bandwidth on them like a blacksmith or
keep ) ive read enough snippets of both white dragon and grilochs revenge
to make me want to move to Wis. to beg Jim and Sean to let me beta test
them. (yes i know that from what ive read read white dragon isnt to that
point but still)
thanks
self-destruct boy
Marton Carungay (mar...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: In article <31CAFC...@itouch.net>, k...@itouch.net wrote:
:
: > Oh, gosh, you mean Tim has a day job, and maybe a social life, too? I
: > forgot.....Actually, my greatest fear is that Realmz will get so
: > popular that some larger game developer will offer to buy Tim out at a
: > price too high to walk away from, and then we'll never see updates or
: > improvements again....Kinda like why you never divulge where your
: > favorite fishing hole is...
:
: And with our luck, Microsoft will be the large wanna-be game developer
: that buys them out. <g>
That is, if Tim manages to escape the wrath of the TSR legal department.
AOL, the fine online service that it is, pulled all Realmz software and
discussion boards due to this copyright fight. You can't even get
non-infringing 3.1. I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on
this.
Andrew McCormick
mcco...@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
god is empty...just like me
Kathy & Brian Gryta
Ouch, I had no idea there was a dispute going on. I can see how TSR
could claim a similarity in look and feel, but it isn't as if they'd
implemented a PC-based game driver in the 20 odd years they'd had the
exclusive. Next they'll want to protect the idea of races, classes,
and spells-I wonder if they tried to sue Tolkein's estate? Did they
go after the makers of Rogue, too, or was that too simple to get TSR's
notice?
Dave Griffin
Maybe I'm coming in late on this, but it looks like AOL has caved to
TSR. TSR
has always tried to throw it's weight around. It's ok for them to take
most
of their original ideas from books like Tolkien's, but I guess it's not
ok
for Realmz to take inspiration from those same sources.
Anybody know just what TSR is objecting to?
self-destruct boy
Kathy & Brian Gryta (k...@itouch.net) wrote:
: Ouch, I had no idea there was a dispute going on. I can see how TSR
AFAIK, TSR is angry over some copyrighted artwork that may or may not have
shown up in versions of Realmz (haven't seen any of it myself). The TSR
Rep on AOL also mentioned the similarity of the spell structures and
monsters. To his idiocy, he mentioned that Beholders, Displacer Beasts
and Dracoliches aren't your everyday occurrences. Of course, none of
those exist in Realmz...
He was griping something about Dark Elves, black skin, white hair and
Underdark, too, but nothing but the Dark Elves show up in Realmz.
I told them to go after Rogue/Moria/Angband while they're at it.
Apparently, TSR uses Halflings instead of Hobbits because of a squabble
with the Tolkein estate.
That's a brief synopsis of TSR acting like a corporate greedhead.
andrew mccormick
Bryan Travis Hooper
In article <4qg9j6$9...@news.cc.oberlin.edu>, mcco...@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
(self-destruct boy) wrote:
> That is, if Tim manages to escape the wrath of the TSR legal department.
> AOL, the fine online service that it is, pulled all Realmz software and
> discussion boards due to this copyright fight. You can't even get
> non-infringing 3.1. I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on
> this.
I haven't heard anything about this law suit. Could you tell me more? As
many games out there as there are, how can TSR even think about suing
anyone? Please fill me in.
Trevor Powell
In article <4qhnfq$j...@news.cc.oberlin.edu>, mcco...@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
(self-destruct boy) wrote:
> Kathy & Brian Gryta (k...@itouch.net) wrote:
> : Ouch, I had no idea there was a dispute going on. I can see how TSR
> : could claim a similarity in look and feel, but it isn't as if they'd
> : implemented a PC-based game driver in the 20 odd years they'd had the
> : exclusive.
There's a TSR "Gold Box" series of RPGs based on AD&D rules. So yes, they
have implemented a PC-based game driver.
>
> AFAIK, TSR is angry over some copyrighted artwork that may or may not have
> shown up in versions of Realmz (haven't seen any of it myself).
On the copyrighted artwork note.. there was scanned artwork from AD&D
module covers, from novel covers, and from various issues of Dragon
magazine strewn about in Realmz, starting from the very first release. In
later releases, most of the blatantly copyrighted images were replaced or
scaled down enough that they were difficult to recognize.
> The TSR
> Rep on AOL also mentioned the similarity of the spell structures and
> monsters. To his idiocy, he mentioned that Beholders, Displacer Beasts
> and Dracoliches aren't your everyday occurrences. Of course, none of
> those exist in Realmz...
Uhm.. Check the art file with ResEdit. Last time I looked, at least the
beholders were in there. Can't say any more than that on the subject,
though.
> He was griping something about Dark Elves, black skin, white hair and
> Underdark, too, but nothing but the Dark Elves show up in Realmz.
He was griping about Drow, actually. Which were created by TSR, and which
Realmz 'borrowed' and uses. As a side-note -- elves, dwarves, and so
forth go back a LONG way further than Tolkein (with the exception of
Hobbits, which were invented by Tolkein), which is why there's no trouble
with every RPG under the sun using those races.
> That's a brief synopsis of TSR acting like a corporate greedhead.
TSR has intellectual property, like anyone else. Personally, I'm rather
upset about some of their rumoured business practices, and don't care much
for most of their published games, anyway.. but I can see their point in
this case.
TSR spends time developing their game systems That's what they do.
That's how they earn their income. They invented Drow. They invented
their spells and spell system. They invented their combat system. They
invented their '-10 hit points and you're dead' rule, involving 1 point of
bleeding damage per turn until tended to by a comrade. All of which (and
more) Realmz blatantly steals from. Companies PAY TSR to be able to use
TSR's gaming system. That's how the Gold Box games got produced --
another computer company bought the rights to use the gaming system.
Copyright law is very, very clear in this regard. Legally, if TSR does
NOT take action against Fantasoft over copyright infringements, they may
lose all capability to take action against other companies that might make
even worse infringements in the future, since the judge may find that TSR
hadn't been adequately protecting their copyrights anyway. If TSR doesn't
get upset at Fantasoft for using their ideas without any agreement, why
would any other company (Gold Box series, for example) pay TSR to use
their ideas in the future? They could just take them for free, since TSR
doesn't seem to mind, right?
My only real upset over this is that now Randy Reddig will probably
_never_ get paid for the 3D dungeon code he provided for Tim, years ago.
But then, Tim denies that his 3D dungeons are based off of the code he
solicited from Randy, anyway. He just happened to get Randy's code and
develop his own unrelated code during a single release period. These
sorts of things just go round and round in circles.
Trevor Powell
--
Mogumbo Cooshua! | "Sjubidu, Sjubidu, Sjubidu..." (ad nauseum)
- Mogumbo, "Mr. India" | -'Sjubidu' (pronounced /SHOO-bee-DOO/)
| The song that OUGHT to have won the
| EuroVision Song Contest.
mr. self destruct
in article <vulpine-2306...@wonderland.zikzak.net>, thus spake
vul...@zikzak.net (Trevor Powell) :
> TSR spends time developing their game systems That's what they do.
> That's how they earn their income. They invented Drow. They invented
> their spells and spell system. They invented their combat system. They
> invented their '-10 hit points and you're dead' rule, involving 1 point of
> bleeding damage per turn until tended to by a comrade. All of which (and
> more) Realmz blatantly steals from. Companies PAY TSR to be able to use
> TSR's gaming system. That's how the Gold Box games got produced --
> another computer company bought the rights to use the gaming system.
The thing that strikes me is how ridiculous TSR looks at the moment. A law
suit over a fantasy race... I agree that the artwork issue is serious, but
the Drow issue certainly isn't. The "10 hit points and you're dead"...
well, if they are bitching about that, they will have to sue quite a
number of companies... Besides, practically any game involving damage and
death bases it on a given number, which when you reach 0 leaves you dead.
So should TSR sue Bungie? After all, Marathon is based on a "150 hit
points and you're dead" combat rule.
Since TSR hasn't exactly come to be known as a quality Mac software
developer, all this only makes them stand out as bullies, especially since
they're not only making life hard for Tim Phillips, but also are
jeopardizing the fun of a few thousand players of Realmz. IMHO, this is
not a good way to market themselves for the future. So let's hope for
their sake that they can live on their law suits in the future.
Besides, attacking a shareware game developer who doesn't even make a
living from his game is definitely to bark at the wrong tree.
thomas
Glenn Andreas
In article <thomas.weigle-2...@dialup107-5-3.swipnet.se>,
thomas...@mailbox.swipnet.se (mr. self destruct) wrote:
> in article <vulpine-2306...@wonderland.zikzak.net>, thus spake
> vul...@zikzak.net (Trevor Powell) :
[deleted]
>
> Besides, attacking a shareware game developer who doesn't even make a
> living from his game is definitely to bark at the wrong tree.
>
Not the way that US copyright law is stated. If they don't defend their
rights EVERYWHERE they can't defend them ANYWHERE (i.e., you can't
selectively defend your copyright rights). Doesn't matter if Realmz was
freeware, shareware, or off-the-shelf commercial. Like it or not, that's
the way things work around here - if they don't defend themselves against
the Realmz of the world, then all the money that they make licensing their
works to the SSI's of the world is at risk (which is how they make money
in the computer game market). Realmz itself might not represent a threat
to their financial future, but unauthorized use of their works do.
Glenn
--
Glenn Andreas Author of Macintosh games:
gand...@skypoint.com, gand...@aol.com Theldrow 2.3
http://www.skypoint.com/members/gandreas Blobbo 1.0.2
ftp://ftp.skypoint.com/pub/members/g/gandreas <---- Available here!
Mike Nancarrow
Trevor Powell wrote:
>
> In article <4qhnfq$j...@news.cc.oberlin.edu>, mcco...@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
> (self-destruct boy) wrote:
>
> > Kathy & Brian Gryta (k...@itouch.net) wrote:
> > : Ouch, I had no idea there was a dispute going on. I can see how TSR
> > : could claim a similarity in look and feel, but it isn't as if they'd
> > : implemented a PC-based game driver in the 20 odd years they'd had the
> > : exclusive.
>
> There's a TSR "Gold Box" series of RPGs based on AD&D rules. So yes, they
> have implemented a PC-based game driver.
>
> >
> > AFAIK, TSR is angry over some copyrighted artwork that may or may not have
> > shown up in versions of Realmz (haven't seen any of it myself).
>
> On the copyrighted artwork note.. there was scanned artwork from AD&D
> module covers, from novel covers, and from various issues of Dragon
> magazine strewn about in Realmz, starting from the very first release. In
> later releases, most of the blatantly copyrighted images were replaced or
> scaled down enough that they were difficult to recognize.
>
well, many of the add-on portraits, which are not from fantasoft, are copywritten, but that
has nothing to do with Realmz proper. That's just a hack that many people have used.
> > The TSR
> > Rep on AOL also mentioned the similarity of the spell structures and
> > monsters. To his idiocy, he mentioned that Beholders, Displacer Beasts
> > and Dracoliches aren't your everyday occurrences. Of course, none of
> > those exist in Realmz...
>
> Uhm.. Check the art file with ResEdit. Last time I looked, at least the
> beholders were in there. Can't say any more than that on the subject,
> though.
It's not a beholder. It's a gazer from beyond, I believe. Surely TSR did not invent
multi-eyed monsters. Greek myths have a hundred-eyed monster. Are they going after "Big
Trouble in Little China?"
>
> > He was griping something about Dark Elves, black skin, white hair and
> > Underdark, too, but nothing but the Dark Elves show up in Realmz.
>
> He was griping about Drow, actually. Which were created by TSR, and which
> Realmz 'borrowed' and uses. As a side-note -- elves, dwarves, and so
> forth go back a LONG way further than Tolkein (with the exception of
> Hobbits, which were invented by Tolkein), which is why there's no trouble
> with every RPG under the sun using those races.
Drow were not created by TSR. That's a very old word. Certain game characteristics were
associated with the word. Many of these are not even used in realmz.
>
> > That's a brief synopsis of TSR acting like a corporate greedhead.
>
> TSR has intellectual property, like anyone else. Personally, I'm rather
> upset about some of their rumoured business practices, and don't care much
> for most of their published games, anyway.. but I can see their point in
> this case.
>
> TSR spends time developing their game systems That's what they do.
> That's how they earn their income. They invented Drow. They invented
> their spells and spell system. They invented their combat system. They
> invented their '-10 hit points and you're dead' rule, involving 1 point of
> bleeding damage per turn until tended to by a comrade. All of which (and
> more) Realmz blatantly steals from. Companies PAY TSR to be able to use
> TSR's gaming system. That's how the Gold Box games got produced --
> another computer company bought the rights to use the gaming system.
>
true.true.true.not true.true (but irrelevant, since Realmz does not use it) true but
irrelevant, true but not major enough IMHO to protect. NOT TRUE AT ALL. somewhat true, SSI
and TSR had a licensing agreement, SSI didn't just but the rights, I imagine. There was
probably some sort of profit sharing. also, those games sucked.
> Copyright law is very, very clear in this regard. Legally, if TSR does
> NOT take action against Fantasoft over copyright infringements, they may
> lose all capability to take action against other companies that might make
> even worse infringements in the future, since the judge may find that TSR
> hadn't been adequately protecting their copyrights anyway. If TSR doesn't
> get upset at Fantasoft for using their ideas without any agreement, why
> would any other company (Gold Box series, for example) pay TSR to use
> their ideas in the future? They could just take them for free, since TSR
> doesn't seem to mind, right?
>
> My only real upset over this is that now Randy Reddig will probably
> _never_ get paid for the 3D dungeon code he provided for Tim, years ago.
> But then, Tim denies that his 3D dungeons are based off of the code he
> solicited from Randy, anyway. He just happened to get Randy's code and
> develop his own unrelated code during a single release period. These
> sorts of things just go round and round in circles.
>
> Trevor Powell
I left the frp newsgroup because it degenerated into endless discussion over these same
topics. I hope it dies on this group. If you would like to bitch about this, go there.
Mike Nancarrow
jsh
self-destruct boy wrote:
> That is, if Tim manages to escape the wrath of the TSR legal department.
> AOL, the fine online service that it is, pulled all Realmz software and
> discussion boards due to this copyright fight. You can't even get
> non-infringing 3.1. I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on
> this.
Hadn't heard a thing about it. Do we need to start a legal defense fund? Dammit,
anyone looking at the two would _know_ Realmz is not a TSR ripoff, but proving it can
be expensive.
jill
Michael M. Eilers
>Besides, attacking a shareware game developer who doesn't even make a
>living from his game is definitely to bark at the wrong tree.
>
>thomas
I'm not going to offer you guys a lecture on copyright law (though some of
the concepts being bandied about are dangerously incorrect) but it may be
interesting to note that to get even one cent from Fantasoft TSR has to
prove "loss" of some kind, financial or otherwise. Considering the have
almost no presence on the Mac platform, that will be a toughie. It's tough
to sue a guy for hogging the ball when you aren't even on the team. The
situation gets a little more complicated when you claim that part of the
ball is stolen property...
The real danger here is just brute intimidation: remeber Rescue vs.
Paramount? Paramount didn't "win" that one, Tom Spreen pulled it because
he couldn't afford to go to court against the bottomless pockets of that
megacorp. The same may happen to Fantasoft.
I heard that Fanatsoft was making a pretty healthy profit, BTW... is this
the case? Or perhaps we should not let that get around :(
michael
Trevor Powell
In article <eilersm-2306...@192.0.2.1>,
eil...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> >Besides, attacking a shareware game developer who doesn't even make a
> >living from his game is definitely to bark at the wrong tree.
> >
> I heard that Fanatsoft was making a pretty healthy profit, BTW... is this
> the case? Or perhaps we should not let that get around :(
Hm. Fantasoft gets all the $25 registrations for Realmz, all the $15
registrations for each of the individual modules, plus cuts of all Exile
and Exile II registrations (released through Fantasoft). Tim stated quite
a while back on one of the Realmz message boards on AOL that he had quit
his job, and was now working full-time on Realmz. Sounds like making a
living to me.
Trevor Powell
I'm keeping this message short -- I've already said all I have to say on
the Realmz/TSR issue, but found this message that seemed to be targetting
me, so I'm responding to it.. brief quote and response follow.
In article <31CD74...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
nanca...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> Trevor Powell wrote:
> >Companies PAY TSR to be able to use
> > TSR's gaming system. That's how the Gold Box games got produced --
> > another computer company bought the rights to use the gaming system.
> >
>. somewhat true, SSI
> and TSR had a licensing agreement, SSI didn't just but the rights, I
imagine. There was
> probably some sort of profit sharing. also, those games sucked.
TSR representatives have stated that SSI bought the rights. Not that it's
of any relevance, but since you didn't know, and seemed to be interested,
I thought I'd mention it.
Are you suggesting that the quality of a game have to do with whether or
not it should have to pay to use copyrighted ideas?
> I left the frp newsgroup because it degenerated into endless discussion
over these same
> topics. I hope it dies on this group. If you would like to bitch about
this, go there.
Am I bitching? I'm clarifying issues and disagreeing with people who say
"TSR shouldn't care about their intellectual property. They're just suing
because they think they can earn a buck, and because they're a Big Nasty
Evil Corporation Who Hates To See A Shareware Author Succeed." If you
don't like anyone to disagree with that sentiment, you're encouraged to
enter me in your killfile. But don't bitch because I'm expressing a
dissenting viewpoint from yours, and don't tell me to go away.
TSR Online Coordinator
> Maybe I'm coming in late on this, but it looks like AOL
> has caved to TSR.
Actually, when AOL was informed of the problem, AOL's lawyers decided
to hide the Realmz software until Realmz's legal status was cleared; this
was done without any pressure from TSR - AOL wished to avoid any possible
accusations of complicity with Fantasoft regarding possible copyrigth
violations - if Realmz was ruled to be in violation of TSR's copyrights,
AOL could be held responsible for distributing illegally copied
copyrighted material.
Again, AOL came to this conclusion independantly, without any request
from TSR.
> It's ok for them to take most of their original ideas from
> books like Tolkien's, but I guess it's not ok for Realmz to
> take inspiration from those same sources.
If you recall, Tolkien based much of his work on folklore. TSR based
their game on similar folklore. Tolkien did file suit against TSR for the
use of an actual Tolkien creation (the hobbit), not for the use of
"elves," "dwarves," etc.
> Anybody know just what TSR is objecting to?
Mainly copyright violations - spell structure and artwork.
Unfortunately, I'm one of the people who has to investigate the game,
so I'll be the one digging through it. :/
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"If I was John, and you were Yoko, I would gladly give up musical genius,
Just to have you as my very own ... personal Venus."
'Be My Yoko Ono,' Barenaked Ladies
Mike Nancarrow
Trevor Powell wrote:
>
> I'm keeping this message short -- I've already said all I have to say on
> the Realmz/TSR issue, but found this message that seemed to be targetting
> me, so I'm responding to it.. brief quote and response follow.
>
> In article <31CD74...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> nanca...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>
> > Trevor Powell wrote:
> > > TSR's gaming system. That's how the Gold Box games got produced --
> > > another computer company bought the rights to use the gaming system.
> > >
> > and TSR had a licensing agreement, SSI didn't just but the rights, I
> imagine. There was
> > probably some sort of profit sharing. also, those games sucked.
>
> of any relevance, but since you didn't know, and seemed to be interested,
> I thought I'd mention it.
>
Realmz varies from D&D in many ways, so this argument is irrelevant anyway.
> Are you suggesting that the quality of a game have to do with whether or
> not it should have to pay to use copyrighted ideas?
No, that would be absurd. I was noting as indicated by the word "also," that the games
happened to suck. Perhaps parenthesis would have made this more clear.
>
> > I left the frp newsgroup because it degenerated into endless discussion
> over these same
> > topics. I hope it dies on this group. If you would like to bitch about
> this, go there.
>
> Am I bitching? I'm clarifying issues and disagreeing with people who say
> "TSR shouldn't care about their intellectual property. They're just suing
> because they think they can earn a buck, and because they're a Big Nasty
> Evil Corporation Who Hates To See A Shareware Author Succeed." If you
> don't like anyone to disagree with that sentiment, you're encouraged to
> enter me in your killfile. But don't bitch because I'm expressing a
> dissenting viewpoint from yours, and don't tell me to go away.
>
> Trevor Powell
>
I do not object to TSR defending their intellectual property rights. I do object to them
laying claim to everything even remotely related to fantasy gaming. I have a lot of exposure
to statements from TSR lawyers, net reps, and others on this issue from the frp.dnd
newsgroup, so I am proceeding from perhaps additional information that readers of this group
may not have, but TSR has been completely irrational, inconsistent, and IMHO, overly greedy
and grasping in pursuit of their "rights" when they simply want to stop competition. This
discussion destroyed a good newsgroup, and I hope I am not contributing to the same
phenomenon herein. This is intended as a warning to the group to not get bogged down in
this..."Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"
Additionally, enormous quotes of sections of legal code on intellectual property (which
actually happened on the D&D group) are an even worse WoB than Ace and the Seans put
together. :)
Mike Nancarrow
the Seanizer
Mike Nancarrow wrote:
> Additionally, enormous quotes of sections of legal code on intellectual property (which
> actually happened on the D&D group) are an even worse WoB than Ace and the Seans put
> together. :)
Hey hey hey.
I heard that.
Sean Floyd
(One of "the Seans")
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Shabby (Michael): I use Rancid Polecat #2. It keeps my skin nice and scaly.
flying circus episode 17
TSR Online Coordinator
thomas.weigle wrote:
> The thing that strikes me is how ridiculous TSR looks at the moment.
> A law suit over a fantasy race...
Oh, so Lucasfilm can't bring up a lawsuit when someone uses wookies
or ewoks? What about Paramount, when someone uses Vulcans, Romulans, or
the Borg?
> Since TSR hasn't exactly come to be known as a quality Mac software
> developer,
What does this have to do with anything? Copyright theft is still
stealing, whether or not the actual owner is making something pretty.
> Besides, attacking a shareware game developer who doesn't even make a
> living from his game is definitely to bark at the wrong tree.
Considering that Tim Phillips has announced that he has quit his job
to work on Realmz full-time, I'd say he's getting enough income from the
game to "make a living."
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
*The Gen Con 1996 registration book is online at the sites above*
"I know we don't live here anymore,
We bought an old house on the Danforth,
She loves me and her body keeps me warm ... I'm happy here."
'The Old Apartment,' - Barenaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
Mike Nancarrow wrote:
> well, many of the add-on portraits, which are not from fantasoft, are
> copywritten, but that has nothing to do with Realmz proper. That's
> just a hack that many people have used.
Actually, I have right here a file full of TSR artwork, with a letter
from Tim Phillips attached, saying, "Here's more art to use with Realmz...."
> Drow were not created by TSR. That's a very old word.
True, drow is an old word. However, dark-skinned white-haired evil
elves that live in vast cities in an underground word called the Underdark
(a TSR trademark) are definitely a TSR creation. The word "drow" is not
copyrighted, but the concept of a TSR drow is. Likewise, a wolverine is
not copyrighted, but the Wolverine of Marvel comics is copyrighted.
> SSI and TSR had a licensing agreement, SSI didn't just but the rights,
> I imagine. There was probably some sort of profit sharing.
Profit sharing is a normal part of a licensing agreement, so it's not
a matter of "they had a license agreement and _also_ some sort of profit
sharing."
> also, those games sucked.
Your point? Most people consider the odd-numbered Star Trek movies
to be bad. Does that make it OK to rip off Paramount?
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
*The Gen Con 1996 registration book is online at the sites above*
"So I'm lying here, just staring at the ceiling tiles, and I'm thinking about,
oh, what to think about. Just listening and relistening, to Smiley Smile,
and I'm wondering if this is some kind of creative drought...."
'Brian Wilson,' BareNaked Ladies
the Seanizer
Actually, I used to spend a heck of a lot of $$$ on TSR =
products some 10 years ago, and I only stopped playing D&D =
because I didn't have any more people to play it with. Here, =
people either play ultra-realistic German RPGs or none at =
all. So when I discovered Realmz last year, I immediately =
noticed: This is just the way a computer version of D&D =
should be. It was beautiful. I've never tried any TSR =
computer games, so I haven't got any idea how good they are, =
but I can tell you that Realmz could be made into the best =
advertisement for D&D that I can think of. Obviously, your =
own software marketing failed. So here we have this computer =
version of your game that has thousands of fans all over the =
world. What if you just cooperated with Fantasoft? I'm not =
talking about them paying licensing fees, but rather of =
Fantasoft mentioning something like "inspired by the great =
RPGs of D&D and AD&D". Realmz would still be a non-
commercial Shareware-product, and I think some people would =
start paying additional attention to D&D and AD&D again.
Well, I might be kinda naive here.
Sean I.Z.E.R.
Der Umgang mit Kondomen ist kinderleicht: F=FCllen Sie
das Kondom bis zum Anschlag mit Rotwein und werfen
Sie damit nach schlechten Menschen.
Walter Moers: Sch=F6ner leben mit dem kleinen Arschloch
Chris Krueger
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> thomas.weigle wrote:
> > The thing that strikes me is how ridiculous TSR looks at the moment.
> > A law suit over a fantasy race...
>
> Oh, so Lucasfilm can't bring up a lawsuit when someone uses wookies
> or ewoks? What about Paramount, when someone uses Vulcans, Romulans, or
> the Borg?
Many games have included little "tributes" to Star Wars, and Lucas has yet
to be so stupid as to dump a frivolous lawsuit on someone for using
something similar to a Light Saber in a game.
So TSR is going to march into court and sue Tim Phillips because he
included a picture of a floating eyeball in his game? Surely I'm not the
only one who thinks TSR would be laughed out of court? Is TSR so hurting
for money that it's primary source of income is lawsuits? TSR has
generated quite a (negative) reputation with folks on the internet. It's
sort of silly how TSR has probably hurt itself more than helped by
preventing anyone from distributing anything remotely related to AD&D over
the internet. It's easier to get a pirated copy of any of the SSI stuff
for AD&D than it is to log into the one site that TSR allows to distribute
AD&D related materials! I have played quite a few of the old SSI games
(Pool of whatever, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc.), and I would say the
SSI games are to Realmz what Windows is to the Mac. And we all know how
Apple's lawsuit against MS went...
I used to play D&D/AD&D, and with the hundreds of creatures TSR included
in its various sourcebooks, I doubt there is one monster that ISN'T
covered under some bizarre TSR copyright. Can anyone use a dragon, be it
Red, Blue, Bronze, or Undead? Is TSR going to sue the next film company
that makes a vampire movie, since they included something that TSR wrote
into a D&D sourcebook years ago?
---
"Your Honor, Mr. Phillips' eyeball CLEARLY violates the copyright TSR put
on Giant Floating Eyeballs in our AD&D 1st Edition Dungeon Master's
Guide."
[Jury fights to keep from bursting into laughter]
"And furthermore, Mr. Phillips' eyeball has Little Eyeballs sticking out
of the top of the Giant Eyeball, AND his Eyeball has TEETH! Could this be
any more blatent?"
---
If this DOES go to court, how could I go about getting a transcript?
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
mr. self destruct
in article <akrueger-290...@spool.cs.wisc.edu>, thus spake
akru...@madison.k12.wi.us (Chris Krueger) :
[chomp]
> ---
> "Your Honor, Mr. Phillips' eyeball CLEARLY violates the copyright TSR put
> on Giant Floating Eyeballs in our AD&D 1st Edition Dungeon Master's
> Guide."
>
> [Jury fights to keep from bursting into laughter]
>
> "And furthermore, Mr. Phillips' eyeball has Little Eyeballs sticking out
> of the top of the Giant Eyeball, AND his Eyeball has TEETH! Could this be
> any more blatent?"
> ---
ROTFL.
> If this DOES go to court, how could I go about getting a transcript?
Perhaps we could sign a list with our email addresses and they can send it
to all on that list.
thomas
--
"it won't give up it wants me dead === ===
goddamn this noise inside my head" || () ||
-NIN \\-//\\-//
mr. self destruct -- Thomas Weigle // \\
thomas...@mailbox.swipnet.se ^ ^
http://poppis.pp.se/~mink/
Douglas Martin
In article <akrueger-290...@spool.cs.wisc.edu>,
akru...@madison.k12.wi.us (Chris Krueger) wrote:
> In article <skreynDt...@netcom.com>, TSR...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> >
> > thomas.weigle wrote:
> > > The thing that strikes me is how ridiculous TSR looks at the moment.
> > > A law suit over a fantasy race...
> >
> > Oh, so Lucasfilm can't bring up a lawsuit when someone uses wookies
> > or ewoks? What about Paramount, when someone uses Vulcans, Romulans, or
> > the Borg?
>
> Many games have included little "tributes" to Star Wars, and Lucas has yet
> to be so stupid as to dump a frivolous lawsuit on someone for using
> something similar to a Light Saber in a game.
>
> So TSR is going to march into court and sue Tim Phillips because he
> included a picture of a floating eyeball in his game? Surely I'm not the
> only one who thinks TSR would be laughed out of court? Is TSR so hurting
As others have mentioned, TSR *MUST* defend its trademarks if it wants to
keep them enforceable against "real" trademark violations. I don't know
the details of the suit, but I assume Tim would not have gone to the
trouble to change spell names, monster names, and race names if the only
issue was pictures. I really wish this wasn't happening (I LOVE Realmz!),
but I wonder if TSR will be satisfied with the small changes he has made;
I haven't seen any substantive changes in the game play.
On a related issue (please don't read this as a criticism; I don't intend
it to be); does someone have an actual reference for the word "drow" in an
actual mythology text or encyclopedia? I tried two mythology encyclopedias
and the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (Unabridged).
Found lots on elves of various kinds in both mythology encyclopedias, but
I couldn't find "drow" anywhere.
--
Douglas Martin 439-1939 (home)
450-3761 x120 (work)
Andrew C. Plotkin
dma...@planet.eon.net (Douglas Martin) writes:
> On a related issue (please don't read this as a criticism; I don't intend
> it to be); does someone have an actual reference for the word "drow" in an
> actual mythology text or encyclopedia? I tried two mythology encyclopedias
> and the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (Unabridged).
> Found lots on elves of various kinds in both mythology encyclopedias, but
> I couldn't find "drow" anywhere.
My dictionary says that "dwarf" comes from Old English "dweorh".
(Tolkien once wrote that the proper plural of "dwarf" should have been
"dwerrows" or "dwarrows". And a couple of fantasy authors have used
the spelling "duarough.") There may be a line of descent from "dweorh"
to "drow".
Or I may be imagining things again.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Rick Decker
>akru...@madison.k12.wi.us (Chris Krueger) :
>
>> If this DOES go to court, how could I go about getting a transcript?
>
>Perhaps we could sign a list with our email addresses and they can send it
>to all on that list.
>
>thomas
>
and along comes this. Hang on, 'til I wipe the tears of laughter
away....
Okay, all better now. So who's gonna set up the listserv? I'm almost
willing to move, just to have a chance to be on the jury, should
it ever come to that (a consummation devoutly *not* to be wished).
You did it again, Stark.
Regards,
t.V.M. "back in force: snatching the Wand of Reasonableness from Ivans"
p.s. Do an old guy a favor, listen to Ace and lose the NIN stuff.
-----------------------------------------------------
Rick Decker rde...@hamilton.edu
Department of Comp. Sci. 315-859-4785
Hamilton College
Clinton, NY 13323 = != == (!)
-----------------------------------------------------
Ivans Chou
> > Anybody know just what TSR is objecting to?
>
> Mainly copyright violations - spell structure and artwork.
> Unfortunately, I'm one of the people who has to investigate the game,
> so I'll be the one digging through it. :/
Bully for you. Now quit wasting bandwidth and get to work! First
start by downloading the latest version of Realmz.
Next, notice that the "These are additional graphics you can use with
Realmz" letter was from Mr. Foley as a service to those of us who
wanted to have the "old" graphics back after they were removed from
the game because they were scanned (and hance "stolen"). These images
were not being bought or sold. They were simply placed in a file and
placed on the archives. If you want to fight the fight against the
propagation of copyrighted images on the internet, I suggest you start
by calling up Playboy and Penthouse and asking them to spear-head the
fight against the propagation of their pictures on the internet.
You'll never get anywhere with this one. The file in question should
really be left out of your inquiry since Mr. Philips did not condone
the return of those images, since he removed them in the first place.
And if you want to track down who put those up... well, we don't know
do we?
Ivans === ===
|| () ||
\\-//\\-//
// \\
^ ^
(snatching the Wand of Reasonableness from tVM. "Get your own, pal! Sheesh.")
---------------------------------------\||/-----------------------------------
| Ivans Chou =||= "Wholly devoted to live and to |
| Ctr for Clinical Computing/PaperCHASE/||\ die, For the sake of the call." |
| Beth Israel Health Care, Boston, MA || -- Steven Curtis Chapman |
| ic...@mercury.bih.harvard.edu http://enterprise.bih.harvard.edu/~ichou/ |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ivans Chou
Did Tim actually include a README with the portrait file? I don't
remember getting it. Oh well... oops. But my point still
stands... It's not part of the "standard" distribution of Realmz.
Ivans === ===
|| () ||
\\-//\\-//
// \\
^ ^
Zizzy_PiP
> Your point? Most people consider the odd-numbered Star Trek movies
> to be bad. Does that make it OK to rip off Paramount?
Yes, This reminds me of what AOL once did, tryed to take a 16 year
old boy to court for his AOL sucks page. Looks like T$R is doing the
same thing here (i guess AOL rubs off), bully the little guy around
with an army of lawyers. There are about 5,000 shareware and
freeware games out there that "rip off" T$R. The fact of the matter
is the Gold Box games *do* suck, let's look at some reasons shall
we?
1) Gold box games are *TERRIBY OUTDATED* they are not compatible
with systems 7.5 or 7.5.3, and there are no FAT or PPC native
versions of the games, Realmz is the only RPG game (includeing gold
box games) that would run when i switches from my Macintosh LC to a
Preforma 6200.
And....
2) About 50% of your fine SSI games are for Windows, Care to explain
that? If a company like Fantasoft can make their games for Mac why
can't you?
So this brings your point up, is it O.K. to rip T$R off? My answer
is yes, when fantasoft makes a product that runs on the PPC, and
generaly outclasses anything T$R has put out. So go ahed Mr.
faceless corperation, try to sue the world, and bully the little
guy! Mean while we'll sit back and laugh as you throw away the
millions of customers and potential customers that visit this group,
and after reading this thread will never buy a thing from you again.
-ZIZZY
====================================================================
STICK IT TO THE MAN! ;-)
====================================================================
Zizzy_PiP
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
> True, drow is an old word. However, dark-skinned white-haired evil
> elves that live in vast cities in an underground word called the Underdark
> (a TSR trademark) are definitely a TSR creation. The word "drow" is not
> copyrighted, but the concept of a TSR drow is. Likewise, a wolverine is
> not copyrighted, but the Wolverine of Marvel comics is copyrighted.
Oh, i almost forgot, about half of the AD&D game was based on the
the works of J.R.R Tolkien if i'm not mistaken. Which means the most
of the information surrounding Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Orcs,
Goblins, and dragons are copyrights (renewed 1983) of Christopher R,
Tolkien, Michel H. R. Tolkien, Jhon F. R. Tolkien and Priscilla M.
A. R. Tolkien. Is it O.K. to rip them off? Hmmmm? I'm waiting for an
answer.
-ZIZZY
Tigger
In article <skreynDt...@netcom.com>, TSR...@aol.com wrote:
>
>thomas.weigle wrote:
>> The thing that strikes me is how ridiculous TSR looks at the moment.
>> A law suit over a fantasy race...
>
> Oh, so Lucasfilm can't bring up a lawsuit when someone uses wookies
>or ewoks? What about Paramount, when someone uses Vulcans, Romulans, or
>the Borg?
How much did TSR ever pay to the Tolkien estate for all the stuff
that forms the very backbone of D&D which was ripped off almost
verbatim from his books? Not a penny, I would guess.
How much did TSR ever pay to Michael Morecock for the use of the
characters and other intellectual property from his "Elric" series
that appeared in the original version of the _Deities & Demigods_
book? And to the appropriate author (whose name I can't remember)
for the Cthulu stuff?
> What does this have to do with anything? Copyright theft is still
>stealing, whether or not the actual owner is making something pretty.
Yes, it is. But how much did you have to pay for it back when you
did it with _Deities & Demigods_? As I recall, there wasn't much in
the way of compensatory or punative damages involved. You just had
to stop using the material illegally. You changed the master copy
and just started the printing presses again. And you've never been
called to the carpet legally over the Tolkien stuff.
If you want to retain anything of a good name in the online
community, I'd suggest that you work with Tim to identify the
objectionable portions of Realmz and get them changed, or set
up a license for the future. However, since I lost all respect
for TSR back around the time you foisted AD&D 2nd Edition on us,
I sorta suspect you don't really care about retaining a good name.
I mean, you can't retain what you've already lost, eh?
I guess I'll just go on with my policy of using my ancient AD&D
(original edition, thank you very much) materials and refusing
to buy anything with the TSR name on it except the few fiction
releases written by authors who seem to be worth supporting. And
urging everyone else to do the same.
Wouldn't it be fun if Gary Gygax had learned his lesson from his
recent years of obscurity, and got together with a big source of
money to produce and promote a game system for all those of us
who loved AD&D, but who think poorly of current TSR management
and their policies, so that we could all go buy it, make it number
one, and show TSR in the way it really hurts what we think of
them.
Enough daydreaming. Back to work. And back to hell with TSR.
--
| Greg Orman gr...@pomona.edu |
| A man's best friends: a Harley, a Beretta and a Gund. |
Ian Russell Ollmann
I'm surprised that this didn't happen years ago, actually. TSR has long
been known in the gaming world to stand for "They Sue Regularly." It's
what happens to you when you are the first to a market and then don't come
up with much worthwhile after that.
Ian
Scott Ellsworth
If Tim had even a single registration from the old version that had the
suspect artwork, TSR has a case. You may not like it, but it _is_ true
that using those images means that Tim got the benefit of TSR's work, and
such was protected.
It sounds like TSR is playing nice, but advising the person who is
looking to "download the most current version which does not have the
objectionable material" really means nothing. All they need is one
public version which has thier IP in it, and they have the means to make
Tim Phillips very, very unhappy.
Live with it.
Scott
--
Scott Ellsworth f...@deltanet.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Mike Nancarrow
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
>
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> > well, many of the add-on portraits, which are not from fantasoft, are
> > copywritten, but that has nothing to do with Realmz proper. That's
> > just a hack that many people have used.
>
> from Tim Phillips attached, saying, "Here's more art to use with Realmz...."
>
>
> elves that live in vast cities in an underground word called the Underdark
> (a TSR trademark) are definitely a TSR creation. The word "drow" is not
> copyrighted, but the concept of a TSR drow is. Likewise, a wolverine is
> not copyrighted, but the Wolverine of Marvel comics is copyrighted.
but regular elves, that are light skinned and live in vast forests on the surface called
forests are ok? What is the difference, if I may ask? Drow meant evil faerie-like
creatures that lived in the ground a thousand years before your boss screwed Gary Gygax
out of everything he made up.
>
> > SSI and TSR had a licensing agreement, SSI didn't just but the rights,
> > I imagine. There was probably some sort of profit sharing.
>
> Profit sharing is a normal part of a licensing agreement, so it's not
> a matter of "they had a license agreement and _also_ some sort of profit
> sharing."
>
OK, I've already admitted to standing corrected on this point. Good job, though. You're
pretty sharp.
> > also, those games sucked.
>
> Your point? Most people consider the odd-numbered Star Trek movies
> to be bad. Does that make it OK to rip off Paramount?
>
Well, I have already explained these remarks, but if I remember correctly, it is your
habit to reply before reading a whole thread, so I'm not suprised you didn't know this.
What I said was "No, the fact that they sucked does not make them any less protected by
the law. The remark was an aside, hence the word 'also.' I now realize I should have
used parenthesis." So now you have had the answer specifically addressed to you.
Also, complaining that you are going to have to play through all of the Realmz scenarios
AS A PART OF YOUR JOB (WHICH IS CANDY-ASS ALREADY) is not going to help advance your
position here, since tons of people here would love to get paid to play Realmz.
Wow, it's really bad to hear from you again, Sean. Did you flame everyone off of
rec.games.frp.dnd, so you had to come here?
Mike Nancarrow
Chris Krueger
In article <4r7jbu$2...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>, Rick Decker
<rde...@hamilton.edu> wrote:
> Okay, all better now. So who's gonna set up the listserv? I'm almost
> willing to move, just to have a chance to be on the jury, should
> it ever come to that (a consummation devoutly *not* to be wished).
> You did it again, Stark.
Luckily for me, I live in Madison, WI, which just happens to be where
Fantasoft is located... If I remember correctly, TSR is located somewhere
in Wisconsin as well... Maybe I can bring a camcorder to the Dane County
Courthouse and tape the whole thing? Anybody have an AV Mac I can borrow?
;)
Now I'm actually hoping I'll get a little jury duty slip of paper in the
mail... ;)
Of course, there's always the chance that TSR will spoil our fun and just
back down... C'mon, I need SOMETHING to do while I'm waiting for football
season! ;)
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> How much did TSR ever pay to the Tolkien estate for all the stuff
> that forms the very backbone of D&D which was ripped off almost
> verbatim from his books? Not a penny, I would guess.
IIRC, the Tolkien estate only asked TSR to change the name of
"hobbits" to "halflings." TSR did so. End of story.
> How much did TSR ever pay to Michael Morecock for the use of the
> characters and other intellectual property from his "Elric" series
> that appeared in the original version of the _Deities & Demigods_
> book? And to the appropriate author (whose name I can't remember)
> for the Cthulu stuff?
Same sort of situation ... all future printings either had that
material removed or the names were changed, at the request of the owner of
the work in question.
Are you seeing the parallel with Realmz, here?
> If you want to retain anything of a good name in the online
> community, I'd suggest that you work with Tim to identify the
> objectionable portions of Realmz and get them changed,
TSR is.
> However, since I lost all respect
> for TSR back around the time you foisted AD&D 2nd Edition on us,
> I sorta suspect you don't really care about retaining a good name.
> I mean, you can't retain what you've already lost, eh?
Well, since I've only been here a year, and that was back in 1987,
your comments really don't apply to me. Try to maintain the distinction
between "TSR, the corporation," and "Sean, the TSR Online Coordinator"
(no, my job is not to take flames ... I'm here to work on all of our
online sites, and I just happen to be the only one available to read
newsgroups).
> Wouldn't it be fun if Gary Gygax had learned his lesson from his
> recent years of obscurity, and got together with a big source of
> money to produce and promote a game system for all those of us
> who loved AD&D, but who think poorly of current TSR management
> and their policies, so that we could all go buy it, make it number
> one, and show TSR in the way it really hurts what we think of
> them.
I think he tried that with the Dangerous Journeys game system.
> Enough daydreaming. Back to work. And back to hell with TSR.
Wisconsin may be hot and muggy, but I somehow doubt that is hell.
I'd classify Wyoming as hell, but only because they have too many state
troopers that like to give speeding tickets....
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"If I had a million dollars (if I had a million dollars)
I would buy you a green dress (but not a real green dress, that's cruel)"
'If I Had $1,000,000,' BareNaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> Next, notice that the "These are additional graphics you
> can use with Realmz" letter was from Mr. Foley as a
> service to those of us who wanted to have the "old"
> graphics back after they were removed from the game
> because they were scanned (and hance "stolen").
You are talking about something totally different than I.
In my copy of the Stuffed archive of Realmz 2.2.2, there is a folder
called "Realmz(tm) Extras," in which is a folder called "Realmz(tm)
Goodies." In that folder are three files:
About Realmz Goodies / Help Me!
Realmz Portraits
Realmz Sounds
The second file contains copyrighted TSR artwork. The first file is
a "newspaper-icon" read-only document. The "last modified date" on it is
February 3, 1995 (which, oddly enough, is my birthday). It says the
following:
Realmz(TM) (C)1994 -95 by Tim Phillips
Distributed by Fantsoft, LLC
A somewhat brief explanation about these files is in the
manual version 1.6 or later but here is a little more of
the same.
These goodies will only work on version 1.6 or higher of
the Realmz scenario driver. To edit either the Realmz
Sounds or Realmz Portraits files you will need to use
ResEdit or some other resource editor.
...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Realmz Portraits
By putting this file in the same folder as Realmz it will
use icons/portraits from this file instead of those in the
Realmz scenario driver. The resource ID of the
icon/portrait in this file has to be the same as that you
want to replace in the Realmz application.
Now you will be able to add custom icons/portraits/sounds
without having to hack into the actual game. (Much safer)
If you do put out a pretty neat sound file I would like to
get a copy of on disk by snail mail if you can spare the
time and the disk. I donUt have time to d/l a ton of
stuff by e-mail and this would make it nice for me. If I
like it I will see that it gets some distribution. You
can put a read-me file with it about who you are if you
want. I like to hear from people.
The only restrictions are you cannot modify this file or
distribute any file by this name for the same purpose for
profit of any kind. The same holds true for the Realmz
Portraits file that I will discuss below.
I don't have a ton of time to scrape up complete
sound/icon files of all types to replace those in Realmz
but this gives an easy way for those of you who would like
to do that to do so. If you do put out a pretty neat
sound/icon file I would like to get a copy of it on disk
by snail mail if you can spare the time and the disk. I
donUt have time to d/l a ton of stuff by e-mail and this
would make it nice for me. If I like it, I will see that
it gets some distribution. You can put a read-me file
with it about who you are if you want the shameless plug.
The only restrictions are you cannot modify this file or
distribute any file by either of these names for profit of
any kind.
-------------------------------------------------------------
...
Tim Phillips
Fantasoft, LLC
Fantasoft, LLC
P.O. Box 1844
Waukesha, WI 53187-1844
e-mail: Fanta...@aol.com
Hopefully, you now will agree that the file containing TSR art, which
was accompanied by a letter from Mr. Phillips stating "here is more art
for Realmz," all of which was distributed with the Realmz software, does
mean that Mr. Phillips was the one responsible for this particular
copyright violation, and not some other person?
I do not mean to disparage your remark about Mr. Foley - I am just
trying to make it clear to everyone out there that TSR art was included
with Realmz, with Mr. Phillips' permission. It is my hope that the above
quote will squash the "Tim never stole art! TSR is lying!" sort of posts
that keep popping up.
> These images were not being bought or sold.
That really doesn't matter. Intent of sale has no bearing on whether
or not something is a copyright violation. Copyright = right to copy. If
you work at Kinko's, and you buy a book of photos, and decide to give
color photocopies of the entire book to all of your friends (for free),
that's still copyright theft.
> If you want to fight the fight against the propagation of
> copyrighted images on the internet, I suggest you start by
> calling up Playboy and Penthouse and asking them to
> spear-head the fight against the propagation of their
> pictures on the internet.
1) that is Playboy's and Penhouse's problem, and I am sure that they
are working on it (and I never expected to have to mention either of those
magazines in the context of working at TSR, let me tell ya).
2) I don't think that people are using Playboy/Penthouse art to sell
their software ... people are basically giving it away; still bad, but ...
> You'll never get anywhere with this one.
I'm sorry, but just because you (meaning you, not meaning TSR) think
that there is no chance doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Sure, people
steal art all the time; it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that
people should stop trying to get people to stop. Sure, people kill other
people all the time; it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that
people should stop trying to get people to stop.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Am I the only one, that loves to make you laugh, laugh until you cry?
Am I the only one, who asks you to go, go on without me?"
'Am I The Only One," - BareNaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Ivans Chou (ic...@if.bu.edu) wrote:
>Did Tim actually include a README with the portrait file?
Yes.
> I don't
>remember getting it.
Well, it's quite possible you didn't grab this particular revision.
> Oh well... oops. But my point still
>stands... It's not part of the "standard" distribution of Realmz.
See my previous post....
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> but regular elves, that are light skinned and live in vast forests on
> the surface called forests are ok? What is the difference, if I may ask?
Easy - TSR _created_ a particular type of drow elf - light hair, dark
skin, etc., etc. They have a well-detailed culture in TSR games and books
that distinguishes them from normal/folklore drow/dark elves. TSR could
have called them the "ploog" instead of "drow," and nobody would be
complaining about the folklore name being a common term (of course, then
Realmz would have a race called the "ploog" that looked remarkably like
TSR's "ploog").
> Drow meant evil faerie-like creatures that lived in the ground a
> thousand years before...
I'd like you to find me a description of drow that gives you a
_really_ good idea of what they look like. Are they tall? Short? Dark
skin? Light? Beautiful? Ugly? Evil? Or just grumpy and isolationist?
Do the men rule, or the women? What god do they worship?
TSR _defined_ what most RPG fans know as the drow today. They took a
vague outline from folklore and painted it in with incredible detail.
Dragons are the same way ... historically (or in legends, at least),
dragons were of many colors, and breathed flames, regardless of color.
TSR segmented the dragons by color and gave each dragon a different breath
weapon based on that color. There is a subset of a whole generation of
people (i.e., those that played AD&D) that laughs when they see a green
dragon breathing flame, because they "know" a green dragon breathes
chlorine gas! TSR doesn't own "dragons," but TSR owns _their_ dragons.
> your boss screwed Gary Gygax out of everything he
> made up.
FYI, he-who-was-not-there-when-it-hit-the-fan, Gary got divorced from
his wife. She got half of his share of the company as part of the
settlement. She sold off her half. Gary no longer had controlling
interest at the company. After about a year and a half of this, HE QUIT
because he couldn't stand not being able to ramrod his decisions across
everyone. He left. He wasn't fired. He sold his shares to the company.
While he worked there, he set it up so that _TSR_ owned the rights to
AD&D. When he left, TSR still owned AD&D. He did it to himself.
> [profit sharing/licensing agreement]
> OK, I've already admitted to standing corrected on this point.
> Good job, though. You're pretty sharp.
Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons & Dragons
and not learn a little something about ... uh ... licensing agreements.
> Also, complaining that you are going to have to play through all of
> the Realmz scenarios AS A PART OF YOUR JOB (WHICH IS CANDY-ASS ALREADY)
You really have no idea what I do, do you?
> is not going to help advance your position here, since tons of people
> here would love to get paid to play Realmz.
And while I'm playing Realmz, who is going to be doing all the work
that I normally do? Maybe you could send over some of your
folklore/public domain drow elves to help me out?
> Wow, it's really bad to hear from you again, Sean. Did you flame
> everyone off of rec.games.frp.dnd, so you had to come here?
Actually, I was _asked_ to come to this newsgroup by someone who is a
regular here. And the people on r.g.f.dnd are very civil ... they
understand TSR's stance, realize that there is a sound legal reasoning
behind it, and both sides are willing to compromise. It is only people
(like yourself) that post in ignorance that continue to disrupt the group
with "TSR sucks!" comments.
Have a nice day ... I need to make some breakfast.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
Chris Krueger
> > Enough daydreaming. Back to work. And back to hell with TSR.
>
> Wisconsin may be hot and muggy, but I somehow doubt that is hell.
> I'd classify Wyoming as hell, but only because they have too many state
> troopers that like to give speeding tickets....
Evidently Sean doesn't visit our (Wisconsin's) world-class speed traps as
much as some of us do... On the way to and from work, sometimes I'll see
four or more police cars sitting under a bridge on the beltline. It's
almost like some border run! :)
If you're ever in Madison, try zooming through Middleton... I'll race ya! ;)
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
minis...@globaldialog.com
Chris Krueger wrote:
>
> In article <4r7jbu$2...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu>, Rick Decker
> <rde...@hamilton.edu> wrote:
>
> > Okay, all better now. So who's gonna set up the listserv? I'm almost
> > willing to move, just to have a chance to be on the jury, should
> > it ever come to that (a consummation devoutly *not* to be wished).
> > You did it again, Stark.
>
> Luckily for me, I live in Madison, WI, which just happens to be where
> Fantasoft is located... If I remember correctly, TSR is located somewhere
> in Wisconsin as well... Maybe I can bring a camcorder to the Dane County
> Courthouse and tape the whole thing? Anybody have an AV Mac I can borrow?
TSR is located in Lake Geneva, about 50 miles away from Chicago... If
anybody heard my message, I'm not going to Gen Con 1996, which is in my
hometown, Milwaukee. TSR is just giving a bad name to our great
state... oh well... enough of my BS...
"DROP THE PUCK!!!!"
Badger Hockey Fans Cry
Paul "Psykho" Koehler
minis...@globaldialog.com
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
>[HUGE snip]
Will you leave this channel??? We've heard enough of your bickering on
how TSR was wronged and how Fantasoft is a big meanie... It just shows
your insecurity and your desire to control the RPG industry... GET
OUT!!!!
"I cannot tell a lie...
I DID dump an antelope
under that half ton of
garbage!"
Paul "Psykho" Koehler
the Seanizer
minis...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>
> TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
>
> >[HUGE snip]
>
> Will you leave this channel??? We've heard enough of your bickering on
> how TSR was wronged and how Fantasoft is a big meanie... It just shows
> your insecurity and your desire to control the RPG industry... GET
> OUT!!!!
Paul, I think you're flaming the wrong guy.
Sean has been a pretty good help to all of us in this discussion, as he's been
telling us the other side of the issue in a friendly way. I don't think he does
this for fun, it's his job. So let him carry on and get after those others.
Sean Floyd
who will soon go through his Monty Python books to see whether he can find
some new sig files.
Jim Foley
> The second file contains copyrighted TSR artwork. The first file is
>a "newspaper-icon" read-only document. The "last modified date" on it is
>February 3, 1995 (which, oddly enough, is my birthday). It says the
>following:
>
Thanks for sharing.
>
>
> Realmz(TM) (C)1994 -95 by Tim Phillips
>
> Distributed by Fantsoft, LLC
See it says distributed by Fantasoft, LLC!
>
> Hopefully, you now will agree that the file containing TSR art, which
>was accompanied by a letter from Mr. Phillips stating "here is more art
>for Realmz," all of which was distributed with the Realmz software, does
>mean that Mr. Phillips was the one responsible for this particular
>copyright violation, and not some other person?
>
> I do not mean to disparage your remark about Mr. Foley - I am just
>trying to make it clear to everyone out there that TSR art was included
>with Realmz, with Mr. Phillips' permission. It is my hope that the above
>quote will squash the "Tim never stole art! TSR is lying!" sort of posts
>that keep popping up.
>
Accusing Mr. Phillips specifically for a possible violation by Fantasoft is
Slander! In addition, there has not been a trial or charges, just a letter
from the company you seem to be representing.
Fantasoft is doing everything they can to work out this situation. If you want
to continue to sling Mr. Phillips name through the mud, then you probably
deserve some of the "flames" you have been receiving.
Jim Foley
--
James Foley University of Wisconsin-Madison
Office (608) 263-2606 1509 University Avenue
Fax (608) 262-6707 Madison, WI 53706
http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~foley
Chris Krueger
> that distinguishes them from normal/folklore drow/dark elves. TSR could
> have called them the "ploog" instead of "drow," and nobody would be
> complaining about the folklore name being a common term (of course, then
> Realmz would have a race called the "ploog" that looked remarkably like
> TSR's "ploog").
I doubt anyone would have copied a "Ploog"... :)
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
Tim Irvin
In article <akrueger-050...@spool.cs.wisc.edu>,
Copied? Hell, any self-respecting party of adventurers would have died
laughing at the thought of eleven vile, blood-thirsty *ploogs* waiting to
rip into the contents of that +2 plate mail.
--
Tim Irvin, zig...@netgate.net :: Softball '96: 18G / 11-6-1 / .490
WWW: http://www.netgate.net/~ziggy29/
"Someone who wears a tie to WWDC (the major Mac developers show)...
needs to rebuild his desktop file and zap his parameter RAM."
-- Guy Kawasaki
Tigger
>
> Same sort of situation ... all future printings either had that
>material removed or the names were changed, at the request of the owner of
>the work in question.
>
> Are you seeing the parallel with Realmz, here?
I don't know. I'm not familiar with the details of the lawsuit that
TSR has filed against the developer of Realmz. If TSR is indeed going
to be reasonable in terms of defining and identifying material that
represents their intellectual property and derivitive works thereof,
and will allow the developer of Realmz to remove the infringing material
in future versions of the game without worrying about damages for past
infringement, I will be very impressed. Given the history involved
with TSR being on the other side, that's exactly what I think should
happen.
So I certainly see *a* parallel. Whether TSR will see the same one
is another question, and one that I personally suspect will be answered
in the negative.
>> However, since I lost all respect
>> for TSR back around the time you foisted AD&D 2nd Edition on us,
>> I sorta suspect you don't really care about retaining a good name.
>> I mean, you can't retain what you've already lost, eh?
>
> Well, since I've only been here a year, and that was back in 1987,
>your comments really don't apply to me. Try to maintain the distinction
>between "TSR, the corporation," and "Sean, the TSR Online Coordinator"
Actually, I was. All of my uses of "you" were meant as "TSR, the
corporation." My apologies if that wasn't clear and it came off as
a personal attack. Before this thread I'm afraid that I've never
even heard of "Sean, the TSR Online Coordinator". I have no idea
of what your personal reputation may be on the net. I do know that
TSR has a very poor rep, and as their online representative I'm
sure you take a lot of unwarrented personal flames. Again, my
apologies if it seemed I was adding to them. From what little I've
seen you seem to be responding in a very reasonable and polite
fashion, and for that and your continued presence in the face of
the flames I applaud you. I still have some very long-standing
negative feelings about the company for which you work, but that
certainly isn't your responsibility.
>> [speculation about Gary Gygax developing a new game deleted]
>
> I think he tried that with the Dangerous Journeys game system.
Is that recent? Or is that the one he put out a year or two
after being forced out of TSR? If the latter, I'll allow my
comments to stand. I'd like to see what he could come up with
today, assuming that he learned something from his final years
at TSR and the fews years following his departure. If the former,
I'll have to check it out.
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Zizzy_PiP (an58...@anon.penet.fi) wrote:
>Oh, i almost forgot, about half of the AD&D game was based on the
>the works of J.R.R Tolkien if i'm not mistaken.
You are quite mistaken. Read the FAQ at rec.games.frp.dnd
for info on the sources that inspired the D&D game (or grab
your 1st edition DMG ... they're listed in the back).
And in any case, Gary & co. changed them enough so that they
were no longer similar enough to be a copyright infringement.
Gee, that sounds a lot like what TSR is asking Fantasoft to do...
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Now it's not fair to say that it's 'cause I was three inches shorter then
And it's not fair to say that it's 'cause I was only fifteen years old."
'Enid,' BareNaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Chris Krueger (akru...@madison.k12.wi.us) wrote:
>Evidently Sean doesn't visit our (Wisconsin's) world-class speed traps as
>much as some of us do... On the way to and from work, sometimes I'll see
>four or more police cars sitting under a bridge on the beltline. It's
>almost like some border run! :)
Well, as I only live about 5 blocks frow work, I don't drive much, and
the lakes area is pretty sparsely populated, so few cops are around.
I have a gripe about WY because on a stretch of straight highway
(speed limit 65) with the previous town an hour behind me and the
next town an hour ahead, and nothing around except short grass and
big red mountains, a state trooper pops up out of nowhere and gives
me a ticket. Someone in a previous town must have radioed ahead
and warned him. Grrrr....
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"The phone rings, it's early, it's seven o'clock
He says 'Sorry I woke you, but I just had to talk
You know last night, remember, when I tried to choke you
I didn't mean it, I was drunk it was only a joke, you
should know that by now...."
- 'The Flag,' BareNaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
minis...@globaldialog.com wrote:
>Will you leave this channel??? We've heard enough of your bickering on
>how TSR was wronged and how Fantasoft is a big meanie... It just shows
>your insecurity and your desire to control the RPG industry... GET
>OUT!!!!
1) I was invited here.
2) Yeah, that's exactly why I'm doing this ... I'm actually a
controlled abductee from ID4....
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Chris Krueger (akru...@madison.k12.wi.us) wrote:
>I doubt anyone would have copied a "Ploog"... :)
You might think that, but ploog bites can be dangerous....
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"I know you must have loved me sometime, but now I'm just a toy."
- 'Just A Toy," Barenaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Zizzy_PiP (an58...@anon.penet.fi) wrote:
>1) Gold box games are *TERRIBY OUTDATED* they are not compatible
>with systems 7.5 or 7.5.3, and there are no FAT or PPC native
>versions of the games, Realmz is the only RPG game (includeing gold
>box games) that would run when i switches from my Macintosh LC to a
>Preforma 6200.
Okay, so if it's old and outdated, it's OK to copy parts of it
and sell them? Even if it doesn't belong to you? Wow, I'm
going to go to the aerospace museum and grab some lunar lander
parts and moon rocks....
In other words: your argument doesn't hold water. Ownership
is ownership, regardless of how you feel about the current
owner or the status of the property.
>2) About 50% of your fine SSI games are for Windows, Care to explain
>that? If a company like Fantasoft can make their games for Mac why
>can't you?
As I have explained before, TSR licenses the rights to various
software companies. It is each company's option to make Mac or PC
games or both. So, blame SSI, not TSR.
>So this brings your point up, is it O.K. to rip T$R off? My answer
>is yes, when fantasoft makes a product that runs on the PPC, and
>generaly outclasses anything T$R has put out.
I really really hope you get to see this sort of policy in
operation some day ... preferably used against you.
You're saying that it is OK to steal something from another
person, if you can do something better with it than they can.
I'm sure I can figure out better things to spend your allowance
on ... how about I steal your wallet?
>guy! Mean while we'll sit back and laugh as you throw away the
>millions of customers and potential customers that visit this group,
>and after reading this thread will never buy a thing from you again.
1) Meanwhile is one word.
2) Do you really think millions of people read this group?
Terje Bless
>I'm sure I can figure out better things to spend your allowance
>on ... how about I steal your wallet?
Ouch.
That one was below the belt.(ref. to 'allowance')
--
Party? Party, lord? Yes, lord. Right away, lord.
- Beopunk Cyberwulf
Chris Krueger
> I have a gripe about WY because on a stretch of straight highway
> (speed limit 65) with the previous town an hour behind me and the
> next town an hour ahead, and nothing around except short grass and
> big red mountains, a state trooper pops up out of nowhere and gives
> me a ticket. Someone in a previous town must have radioed ahead
> and warned him. Grrrr....
Well, I've finally figured out when you see a sign reading something like
"Welcome to Hickville, Population 5", it's really a warning to REALLY
follow the speed limits. Those cops in small towns literally have nothing
better to do, me thinks! ;)
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
Chris Krueger
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> Chris Krueger (akru...@madison.k12.wi.us) wrote:
> >I doubt anyone would have copied a "Ploog"... :)
>
> You might think that, but ploog bites can be dangerous....
And I thought that Ploogs were the alternate name for Drow Elves... or
are they? :)
--
Chris Krueger
(akru...@madison.k12.wi.us)
Ace
> In article <skreynDu...@netcom.com>, TSR...@aol.com wrote:
What I love about this address is...
It containst both the words 'aol' and 'netcom'...
Do I see a pattern here?
> >I'm sure I can figure out better things to spend your allowance
> >on ... how about I steal your wallet?
>
> Ouch.
> That one was below the belt.(ref. to 'allowance')
The only thing I'd personally like to know is to whom was that reply
addressed to... If it was to me, I never got allowance, I had to werk fer
my own bux! =P
> --
> Party? Party, lord? Yes, lord. Right away, lord.
> - Beopunk Cyberwulf
Ace, 'Grrrr. STOP POOOOOOOOKING ME!'
--
"ZAP! WALAPOOKIE! You and plane now piece dark toast. You smelly,
yummy, eatable, warm, high source of protains, low in fat"
Lt. HARM-23, VFA-401 2nd squadron NCSC Piranhas.
"DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form."
( New York Times, November 26, 1991)
Terje Bless
In article <digab-06079...@digab.vip.best.com>, di...@best.com
(Ace) wrote:
>In article <link-06079...@news.uit.no>, li...@tss.no (Terje Bless)
wrote:
>
[SNIP]
>
>> >I'm sure I can figure out better things to spend your allowance
>> >on ... how about I steal your wallet?
>>
>> Ouch.
>> That one was below the belt.(ref. to 'allowance')
>
> The only thing I'd personally like to know is to whom was that reply
>addressed to... If it was to me, I never got allowance, I had to werk fer
>my own bux! =P
I know you did. It was to Sean.
It's understandable, after all, some of the articles in this group has
been pretty juvenile lately, but it was still a cheap shot. ;-)
Dave Griffin
In article <skreynDt...@netcom.com>
skr...@netcom.com (TSR Online Coordinator) writes:
> Mainly copyright violations - spell structure and artwork.
> Unfortunately, I'm one of the people who has to investigate the game,
> so I'll be the one digging through it. :/
While you're evaluating the game, keep a few things in mind. First, a
lot
of AD&D gamers play Realmz. If TSR makes a fair deal and Fantasoft can
make their game legal and go on, everything will be cool. On the other
hand
if Fantasoft dissapears because TSR thinks it's in their financial
interest
for them to dissappear, consider what all your customers will think.
I for one have a couple of thousand dollars of TSR stuff in my closets.
If
Fantasoft dissapears because TSR is being unreasonable, I'll stop
trying
to convince my gamers they don't want to play Gurps Fantasy instead.
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> I don't know. I'm not familiar with the details of the lawsuit that
> TSR has filed against the developer of Realmz.
There has been no lawsuit at all. TSR has sent Fantasoft a Cease &
Desist letter, which basically says, "You're doing something we think is
wrong; stop it or we'll have to sic a lawyer on you, or worse - two
lawyers!" All that is going on right now is talk.
> Before this thread I'm afraid that I've never
> even heard of "Sean, the TSR Online Coordinator". I have no idea
> of what your personal reputation may be on the net.
Heh ... well, ask at rec.games.frp.dnd, and I'm sure you'll get some
opinions, pro and con.
> I do know that
> TSR has a very poor rep, and as their online representative I'm
> sure you take a lot of unwarrented personal flames.
I do, and that's one of the things I'm trying to change. The rest of
the company's rep may be crap, but I want people to see that the online
side of things is actually okay.
> > I think he tried that with the Dangerous Journeys game system.
> Is that recent? Or is that the one he put out a year or two
> after being forced out of TSR?
Well, he actually left TSR voluntarily, but that's not important
right now. Anyway, DJ came out about three years ago (Gary left TSR in
1986), written by Gary and published by Game Designers Workshop.
Unfortunately, TSR thought that much of the DJ game system was infringing
on TSR's copyrights due to similarities in the game, as well as that Gary
may have written some of it while he was still at TSR (it's in our
contracts that whatever we write while working at TSR belongs to TSR, so
walking off with any notes and publishing them is stealing from TSR; like
it or not, it's in your contract, and you agree to it when you sign).
So, eventually, after much litigation, TSR bought all the rights to
DJ from GDW. There should stillbe copies of the game floating around ...
most people I know hate it (it has a LOT of detail), but I know quite
a few who absolutely love it, a hundred times more than AD&D.\
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
mr. self destruct
in article <skreynDu...@netcom.com>, thus spake TSR...@aol.com :
[...]
> may have written some of it while he was still at TSR (it's in our
> contracts that whatever we write while working at TSR belongs to TSR, so
> walking off with any notes and publishing them is stealing from TSR; like
> it or not, it's in your contract, and you agree to it when you sign).
I'm sorry to once again have to say something totally unrelated and
seemingly stupid, but companies with this policy make me sick. Does this
go for everything, I mean *everything*, you write? Like, had Joyce been a
TSR employee, Ulysses would've been owned by TSR? Or does it only apply to
anything related to fantasy games? Because although not everyone thinks
that s/he will actually create something when they join, what if they do?
Greed...
The budding author would have to shut up until he decided to leave the company.
Regards,
thomas
--
it won't give up it wants me dead === ===
goddamn this noise inside my head || () ||
- NIN - \\-//\\-//
mr. self destruct - Thomas Weigle // \\
wei...@algonet.se ^ ^
http://www.algonet.se/~weigle
David Alan Grayson
In article <weigle-0807...@192.0.2.1>, wei...@algonet.se (mr.
self destruct) wrote:
** in article <skreynDu...@netcom.com>, thus spake TSR...@aol.com :
**
** [...]
** > may have written some of it while he was still at TSR (it's in our
** > contracts that whatever we write while working at TSR belongs to TSR, so
** > walking off with any notes and publishing them is stealing from TSR; like
** > it or not, it's in your contract, and you agree to it when you sign).
**
** I'm sorry to once again have to say something totally unrelated and
** seemingly stupid, but companies with this policy make me sick. Does this
** go for everything, I mean *everything*, you write? Like, had Joyce been a
** TSR employee, Ulysses would've been owned by TSR? Or does it only apply to
** anything related to fantasy games? Because although not everyone thinks
** that s/he will actually create something when they join, what if they do?
** Greed...
**
** The budding author would have to shut up until he decided to leave the
company.
**
** Regards,
**
** thomas
**
thomas
this is a stark reality in the US. If you are in a creative business you
end up with some sort of agreement. I even have one with the UC system for
anything I may invent while doing my graduate work.
Dave
--
David Grayson
UCLA, Dept. Chem.Eng., 5531 Boelter Hall, LA, CA 90095-1592
gra...@seas.ucla.edu
http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~grayson/
=== ===
|| () ||
\\-//\\-//
// \\
^ ^
Mike Nancarrow
Which is lame, but makes more sense than game design. UC is providing you with lab
facilities, reagents, glassware, etc. What did the TSR office provide Gary, light?
Mike Nancarrow
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> I'm sorry to once again have to say something totally unrelated and
> seemingly stupid, but companies with this policy make me sick.
Just about any company that produces anything (especially
intellectual property) has a similar agreement. If you don't like it,
don't sign the contract, and don't work there.
> Does this go for everything, I mean *everything*, you write?
If it's on company time or company equipment, yes (also a standard
for the industry).
> Because although not everyone thinks that s/he will actually
> create something when they join, what if they do?
If they are under such a contract, then the parent company owns it.
However, most companies buy the work from the employee if they wrote it
outside the context of their job (for example, if I wrote a module, they'd
have the option of buying it from me as a "freelance" project ... it's
more that TSR has first rights to publish it, than complete and automatic
ownership).
> The budding author would have to shut up until he decided to
> leave the company.
True. And that's how it is in this industry.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Are you ashamed of what you've done? All we did was have some fun.
I won't judge and I won't tell, and I'll forget you when you've gone."
- 'Call Me Calmly," Barenaked Ladies
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
> Which is lame, but makes more sense than game design. UC
> is providing you with la b facilities, reagents,
> glassware, etc. What did the TSR office provide Gary,
> light ?
Putting creative people in a creative environment encourages more
creativity (it's the "think tank" approach). Thus, if it weren't for the
company, the employee would not have had the same opportunity of creativity.
And, remember ... Gary _chose_ to sign that contract. He knew what
he was getting into.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Broke into the old apartment, this is where we used to live,
Broken glass, broke and hungry, broken hearts and broken bones,
This is where we used to live."
'The Old Apartment,' - Barenaked Ladies
Mike Nancarrow
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
>
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> > Which is lame, but makes more sense than game design. UC
> > is providing you with la b facilities, reagents,
> > glassware, etc. What did the TSR office provide Gary,
> > light ?
>
> Putting creative people in a creative environment encourages more
> creativity (it's the "think tank" approach). Thus, if it weren't for the
> company, the employee would not have had the same opportunity of creativity.
>
But who's to say that individual x wouldn't have come up with it anyway... :)
> And, remember ... Gary _chose_ to sign that contract. He knew what
> he was getting into.
>
Well, as I've said before, he did and he didn't. Divorces suck.
Rick Decker
Let's see, now who exactly was it that said this (I guess I snipped
too much; oh well, it doesn't really matter):
>> The budding author would have to shut up until he decided to
>> leave the company.
To which Sean responded"
> True. And that's how it is in this industry.
>
Boy, don't you love the party line? Siegel & Shuster signed away the
rights to Superman (yeah, I know, they kinda got them back again
years later) 'cause "that's how it [was] in this industry" (yeah, I
know--different industry). There was a nifty little stamp on the
check's back then that said, roughly, "By endorsing this check, you
agree to cede to us all rights for this work, now and in perpetuity."
Simply because it's "how it is" doesn't make it right. Gee, looks like
I just talked myself back into throwing bricks at the big guys. Cool.
Regards,
Rick
-----------------------------------------------------
Rick Decker rde...@hamilton.edu
Department of Comp. Sci. 315-859-4785
Hamilton College
Clinton, NY 13323 = != == (!)
-----------------------------------------------------
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Rick Decker wrote:
> Boy, don't you love the party line? Siegel & Shuster signed away the
> rights to Superman (yeah, I know, they kinda got them back again
> years later) 'cause "that's how it [was] in this industry" (yeah, I
> know--different industry). There was a nifty little stamp on the
> check's back then that said, roughly, "By endorsing this check, you
> agree to cede to us all rights for this work, now and in perpetuity."
Gary owned the company for 15 years, and had _his_ employees sign
contracts just like that during that time. He knew exactly what people
who signed the contracts were bound to. When he changed his status in the
company and (as a result of that) had to sign one of those contracts, he
knew what he was getting into. If you're saying he didn't, then you're
basically saying he's stupid. The man knew what he was doing, had done it
to others for years, and knew the consequences of it.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"This name is the hairshirt I wear, and this hairshirt is woven from
Your brown hair. This song is the cross that I bear, bear it with me,
bear with me, bear with me, be with me tonight? I know that it isn't
right ... but be with me tonight."
'What a Good Boy,' BareNaked Ladies
Jake Hoelter
In article <31D7A4...@anon.penet.fi>, Zizzy_PiP
<an58...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>...The fact of the matter
>is the Gold Box games *do* suck, let's look at some reasons shall
>we?
>
>1) Gold box games are *TERRIBY OUTDATED* they are not compatible
>with systems 7.5 or 7.5.3, and there are no FAT or PPC native
>versions of the games, Realmz is the only RPG game (includeing gold
>box games) that would run when i switches from my Macintosh LC to a
>Preforma 6200.
>
>And.... <continues>
>
>-ZIZZY
Um, not to jump into the TSR/Realmz fray here, I just wanted to point out
that Might and Magic III and World of Xeen (which is Might & Magic IV and
V) both run fine on PowerPC computers. World of Xeen is a FAT binary, so
it's PowerPC native even. (Version 1.0 of WoX was 68K only, but an updater
was released adding PPC code).
We did the Macintosh versions of both of those RPGs here at Presage
Software, and really tried to make them true Macintosh applications. While
Might and Magic III was released about two years before the PowerMacs
first appeared, I updated the application later to make sure it would run
fine on them. (I never did create a PPC native version of MM3 because much
of the code was 68K assembly and it was two years old at that point, so
the work wasn't worth it. But I did make sure it would run fine on modern
systems.)
Jake Hoelter
TSR Online Coordinator
A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
Mike Nancarrow wrote:
> But who's to say that individual x wouldn't have come up with it
> anyway... :)
If they wanted 100% ownership of what they wrote (assuming that
they'd be able to do it alone), then they could have chosen not to sign
that contract, and chosen not to work for the company.
> > And, remember ... Gary _chose_ to sign that contract. He knew what
> > he was getting into.
> Well, as I've said before, he did and he didn't. Divorces suck.
Sorry, Mike, whether Gary was divorcing or not, he knew what the
result of that agreement would be, having seen it be in effect for others
for fifteen years.
--
Sean Reynolds, TSR Online Coordinator
TSR...@aol.com | AOL: keyword TSR | http://users.aol.com/tsrinc/
"Excuse me, I hope you don't mind but, I followed you into this shop, and,
I coulnd't help but notice, ah, that riding crop, sticking out of,
Your haversack, well, I wouldn't mind, riding you bareback!"
'King of Bedside Manor,' BareNaked Ladies
mr. self destruct
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> Mike Nancarrow wrote:
> > But who's to say that individual x wouldn't have come up with it
> > anyway... :)
>
> If they wanted 100% ownership of what they wrote (assuming that
> they'd be able to do it alone), then they could have chosen not to sign
> that contract, and chosen not to work for the company.
I know about the situation and it is the same in many companies in Sweden
as well. What I can't figure out is how people in general and companies in
particular tend to forget what greed does to our world... Totally a side
issue, indeed, not at all related to TSR, Fantasoft, AD&D or Realmz, but
still...
Still, haven't heard an answer from anyone who might know. Would Joyce
have had to give up the rights to Ulysses if he had been working for TSR?
"TSR is proud to present the latest AD&D module: ULYSSES! Play the roles
of Leopold Bloom, his wife Molly Bloom and the young, budding author
Stephen Dedalus as they force their way through fantasy Dublin! Fight the
ghost of Stephen's mother outside St. Patrick's Cathedral! Sit by the camp
fire near Sandymount and dream of the lovely Gertie MacDowell! Slay the
Oxen of the Sun in Holles Street! And finally you may reach the haven of
everyday people at 16th Eccles Street... But the journey is long and thou
must be brave to not succumb under the pressure of the Stream of
Consciousness..."
*puke*
Just think about Anna Livia Plurabelle in TSR shrouds...
R.,
"sean,
While ordering spam, mr. self destruct wrote:
>
> "TSR is proud to present the latest AD&D module: ULYSSES! Play the roles
> of Leopold Bloom, his wife Molly Bloom and the young, budding author
> Stephen Dedalus as they force their way through fantasy Dublin! Fight the
> ghost of Stephen's mother outside St. Patrick's Cathedral! Sit by the camp
> fire near Sandymount and dream of the lovely Gertie MacDowell! Slay the
> Oxen of the Sun in Holles Street! And finally you may reach the haven of
> everyday people at 16th Eccles Street... But the journey is long
OK, we've heard the one about Ulysses.
Haven't you read any other books?
Joyce sucks. I could never make it past the first couple of
pages.
Now Kafka, on the other hand...
Imagine Joseph Realmz (fictional character) facing a trial
by the mystical evil forces (that of course have a striking
resemblance of TSR), never quite knowing what the charges
brought against him actually consisted of. etc. etc. etc.
Anyway, you get the picture. Bloomsday = Schmoomsday
Sean Floyd
Oh, did I mention that I don't like Joyce???
*******************************************
What have you got then?
Well there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and
spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon, sausage and
spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam, spam,
spam, egg and spam; spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam,
baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam; or lobster thermidor
aux crevettes with a mornay sauce garnished with truffle
pate, brandy and a fried egg on top with spam.
flying circus, episode 25
*******************************************
Donald Scott Macron
Distribution:
Sean, the profoundly
irrational (sean....@rz.hu-berlin.desean.floyd@rz.hu-berlin.de) wrote:
: OK, we've heard the one about Ulysses.
: Haven't you read any other books?
: Joyce sucks. I could never make it past the first couple of
: pages.
Got news for ya, Sean me boy:
incomprehensible to Sean != bad writing
In fact, there seems to be a strong argument for the opposite of your
original proposition...
: Now Kafka, on the other hand...
...sucks sweaty moose parts? Quite.
If y'all ain't gonna keep this discussion to Realmz vs. TSR, you could at
least make it slightly relevent to Mac Gaming, y'know...
Sean the Illiterate
While ordering spam, Donald Scott Macron wrote:
>
> In fact, there seems to be a strong argument for the opposite of your
> original proposition...
Is this better now????
I didn't plan on keeping up that VoiceOfRation stuff much
longer, anyhow!
> If y'all ain't gonna keep this discussion to Realmz vs. TSR
which is not this newsgroup's topic, is it????
Sean Floyd
Who can vividly imagine Franz Kafka nibbling on some ole
moose's leg.
Mike Nancarrow
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
>
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
> Mike Nancarrow wrote:
> > But who's to say that individual x wouldn't have come up with it
> > anyway... :)
>
> If they wanted 100% ownership of what they wrote (assuming that
> they'd be able to do it alone), then they could have chosen not to sign
> that contract, and chosen not to work for the company.
>
Hey! I understand that that is the way it works and am not attacking it, ease back a notch
:)
> > > And, remember ... Gary _chose_ to sign that contract. He knew what
> > > he was getting into.
>
> > Well, as I've said before, he did and he didn't. Divorces suck.
>
> Sorry, Mike, whether Gary was divorcing or not, he knew what the
> result of that agreement would be, having seen it be in effect for others
> for fifteen years.
>
Well...that's pretty shady. Gary "knew" that TSR would own the rights, but also thought
that he would own TSR, so the result he "knew" was far different from what he got.
Mike
Joseph M. Burnette
TSR Online Coordinator wrote:
> I have a gripe about WY because on a stretch of straight highway
> (speed limit 65) with the previous town an hour behind me and the
> next town an hour ahead, and nothing around except short grass and
> big red mountains, a state trooper pops up out of nowhere and gives
> me a ticket. Someone in a previous town must have radioed ahead
> and warned him. Grrrr....
>
You mean you actually found a road in Wyoming on which you could drive
over 65 without destroying your car?
Amazing!
Joe
mr. self destruct
in article <31E39C...@rz.hu-berlin.de>, thus spake
sean....@rz.hu-berlin.de :
> While ordering spam, mr. self destruct wrote:
> >
> > "TSR is proud to present the latest AD&D module: ULYSSES! Play the roles
> > of Leopold Bloom, his wife Molly Bloom and the young, budding author
> > Stephen Dedalus as they force their way through fantasy Dublin! Fight the
> > ghost of Stephen's mother outside St. Patrick's Cathedral! Sit by the camp
> > fire near Sandymount and dream of the lovely Gertie MacDowell! Slay the
> > Oxen of the Sun in Holles Street! And finally you may reach the haven of
> > everyday people at 16th Eccles Street... But the journey is long
>
> OK, we've heard the one about Ulysses.
> Haven't you read any other books?
> Joyce sucks. I could never make it past the first couple of
> pages.
Oh, I much enjoyed all of his works, although I'm having a hell of a time
getting into 'Finnegan's Wake'. I especially enjoy 'Ulysses' (have I said
that before?) but also find the differences between 'Stephen Hero' and 'A
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man' fascinating... Anyone noticed how
Stephen in SH is a much more common young man than Stephen in 'A
Portrait...' or 'Ulysses'?
> Now Kafka, on the other hand...
I enjoy Kafka a lot, too. Especially 'The Castle' (or whatever you might
call it in English). 'The Process' (or whatever you might call that one)
was so hyped that it wasn't as much of an experience once I got around to
reading it.
Still, Joyce, Beckett, Woolf, Faulkner, Pynchon, Vonnegut and Adams hold
special places in my heart. If we stick to 20th century literature, that
is. I'm a big fan of the epics too. Perhaps that's why I enjoy 'Ulysses'
so much... Oh well...
> Imagine Joseph Realmz (fictional character) facing a trial
> by the mystical evil forces (that of course have a striking
> resemblance of TSR), never quite knowing what the charges
> brought against him actually consisted of. etc. etc. etc.
In this case, we are the J.K.s, not Fantasoft.
I'd recommend a trip through Joyce's Dublin if you want to have an easier
time with coping with his works. Certainly worth the trip just for all the
Guinness you get to drink.
mr. self destruct
in article <4s0ivo$s...@netnews.upenn.edu>, thus spake
dma...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Donald Scott Macron) :
> If y'all ain't gonna keep this discussion to Realmz vs. TSR, you could at
> least make it slightly relevent to Mac Gaming, y'know...
Y'know, it's not like we haven't been WoBing about everything between
heaven and hell in the Realmz related threads for the last year or so...
* The Monty Haul (or whatever it was).
* Who's the most helpful person?
* Who's the motormouth?
* Who stole a clown on New Year's Eve?
* Best beer.
* Flaming.
In short, you name it, we've got it for you, right here in csmg.adventure,
Realmz section.
the SEAN.I.Z.E.R.
While ordering spam, mr. self destruct wrote:
=
> Still, Joyce, Beckett,
uhhhh, Beckett reeeeeally gave my patience a rough test.
> Woolf, Faulkner, Pynchon, Vonnegut and Adams
thanx, Adams, for all the fish. Don't know the others, though...
> hold special places in my heart. If we stick to 20th century
> literature, thatis.
Well, I prefer some german literature for obvious reasons (I study =
german language and literature).
Kafka, Thomas Mann, G=FCnther Grass, Gottfried Benn, Max Frisch
just to name a few...
> I'd recommend a trip through Joyce's Dublin if you want to have an easier=
> time with coping with his works. Certainly worth the trip just for all th=
e
> Guinness you get to drink.
Yuck!!!
Me no like beer!!!!
But since I have irish ancestors, I will check out Dublin, eventually.
Sean Floyd
"I said I'm Irish, but I'm not a Leprechaun!"
House of Pain
*******************************************
What have you got then?
Well there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg, =
bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, =
spam, bacon and spam; spam, spam, spam, egg and spam; spam, spam, spam, =
spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam; or lobster =
thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce garnished with truffle pate, =
Mark Ashton
In article <31E4DB...@rz.hu-berlin.de>, "the SEAN.I.Z.E.R."
<sean....@rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
> While ordering spam, mr. self destruct wrote:
> > =
>
> =
>
> > Still, Joyce, Beckett,
>
> uhhhh, Beckett reeeeeally gave my patience a rough test.
>
> > Woolf, Faulkner, Pynchon, Vonnegut and Adams
>
> thanx, Adams, for all the fish. Don't know the others, though...
<heart attack>
Virginia Woolf? William Faulkner? Kurt Vonnegut?
Don't know them?
-Mark
Zizzy_PiP
Terje Bless wrote:
> been pretty juvenile lately, but it was still a cheap shot. ;-)
What do you expect from T$R, a company that's in bed with AOL. One
of the single most corrupt On-line service providers in the world.
This is extremely ironic from someone who has probably never worked
a day in his life (and i'm not talking about sitting on your but
infront of a computer), do us all a favor and leave.
Zizzy_PiP
:-P Mentos Smile!
(oops...., copyrighted material! I'm in trouble now!)
Terje Bless
>Terje Bless wrote:
>
>> been pretty juvenile lately, but it was still a cheap shot. ;-)
>
>What do you expect from T$R, a company that's in bed with AOL. One
>of the single most corrupt On-line service providers in the world.
That, neighbour, is rumor and hear-say and not a proven fact. (AOL
probably could sue for that ;-> )
>This is extremely ironic from someone who has probably never worked
>a day in his life (and i'm not talking about sitting on your but
>infront of a computer), do us all a favor and leave.
You don't consider "sitting on your but[t] in[ ]front of a computer" working ???
Please don't tell my boss that. He would be pretty pissed off if he found
out that he has been paying me good money for several years, when I have
not worked a single day to earn it.
So I'm not working when I'm sitting "on my but infront of a computer", 4
in the morning, hacking perl code for the "WWW-based, satellite data
distribution system" my boss wants me to finish in three days, after
working 20 hours and living on coffe' and cigarettes for 19 of those ???
Where do you think Realmz/Marathon/WoX/whatever comes from ?
Tim Phillips does not work ???
Posting from "anon.penet.fi" is probably a good idea if you try to suggest that.
Oh, by the way.
I responded to this article thinking you where picking on
Sean-from-TSR-who-is-really-a-nice-guy, but after reading it again the
last paragraph you wrote could have been for me( I'm the only quoted
author ).
If that is the case you can pretend that the acid/flame level in this post
was aprox. 20 times higher. Thank you for calling, Mr./Mrs./ms.
"Zizzy_PiP"
mr. self destruct
in article <31E641...@anon.penet.fi>, thus spake Zizzy_PiP
<zp...@anon.penet.fi> :
> Terje Bless wrote:
>
> > been pretty juvenile lately, but it was still a cheap shot. ;-)
>
> What do you expect from T$R, a company that's in bed with AOL. One
> of the single most corrupt On-line service providers in the world.
> This is extremely ironic from someone who has probably never worked
> a day in his life (and i'm not talking about sitting on your but
> infront of a computer), do us all a favor and leave.
Hmm, please don't ask Terje to leave, he's a nice Realmzer after all.
As for TSR being in bed with AOL, well, is it not rather so that they
chose to use AOL as their marketing forum online? Just like Fantasoft and
lots of other companies (Ambrosia comes to mind). That they have power to
change AOL seems to be the case, yes, but I don't think they're in bed
with them, right?
As for AOL, corruption and morons, 'tis all true. I feel sorry for the
competent and nice users of that service.
> Zizzy_PiP
>
> :-P Mentos Smile!
> (oops...., copyrighted material! I'm in trouble now!)
Of course, one might think that an anon address would save people from
copyright trouble, as well as unwanted flames... ;-)
thomas
Realmz player
Terje protagonist
TSR antagonist
AOL loather
But with an open mind.
Or, to quote John Steinbeck, "The ability to think differently today than
yesterday is what separates the wise man from the foolish."
(Disclaimer: don't know about the exactness of that quote, I only have it
in Swedish and had to first translate it...)
the SEAN.I.Z.E.R.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zorba: Frankly I don't know how the female
limpet finds the time to adhere to the rock-face.
How am I doing?
Mrs. Jalin: Disgusting.
Mr. Jalin: But more interesting.
---Flying Circus, Episode 32---
the SEAN.I.Z.E.R.
Mark Ashton wrote:
>
Well, I've read "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?". Does that count???
Tell me, how much German or Austrian literature have you read????
English is not my first language, I've read some English/American books,
but not nearly as many as German ones.
Sean Floyd
It's not easy being a German-speaking American....
mr. self destruct
in article <31E7B9...@rz.hu-berlin.de>, thus spake "the SEAN.I.Z.E.R."
<sean....@rz.hu-berlin.de> :
> Mark Ashton wrote:
> >
>
> Well, I've read "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?". Does that count???
>
> Tell me, how much German or Austrian literature have you read????
> English is not my first language, I've read some English/American books,
> but not nearly as many as German ones.
We all naturally assume that our greatest authors are well-known to
everybody. Not necessarily the case. The American says "What? You don't
know who WILLIAM FAULKNER is????", the Swede "What? You don't know who
AUGUST STRINDBERG is????", the Brit "What? You don't know who WILLIAM
WORDSWORTH is????", the German "What? You don't know who BERTHOLD BRECHT
is????". And so on. Really meaningless. We all read the stuff we enjoy,
and we don't have to know any other authors. Really.
About the authors: I recommend 'To the Lighthouse' and 'Mrs. Dalloway' by
Virginia Woolf, 'The Sound and the Fury' and 'Light in August' by William
Faulkner, 'Breakfast of Champions' and 'Slaughterhouse-Five' by Kurt
Vonnegut and 'The Crying of Lot 49' and 'Gravity's Rainbow' by Thomas
Pynchon. Did I forget anyone?
Oh well, back to Realmz...
thomas
Zizzy_PiP
>
> Oh, by the way.
> I responded to this article thinking you where picking on
> Sean-from-TSR-who-is-really-a-nice-guy, but after reading it again the
> last paragraph you wrote could have been for me( I'm the only quoted
> author ).
> If that is the case you can pretend that the acid/flame level in this post
> was aprox. 20 times higher. Thank you for calling, Mr./Mrs./ms.
> "Zizzy_PiP"
>
> --
> Party? Party, lord? Yes, lord. Right away, lord.
> - Beopunk Cyberwulf
Sorry, you'll have to excuse me for the way i've acted. I just let
out several years of pent up agression and frusteration with T$R. I
may have aimed it at the wrong person(s). However haveing one of my
favorite games comeing close to distruction was the straw that broke
the camels back. Maybe Sean is'nt such a bad guy, but i still don't
care much for T$R. Well that's all you'll hear from me on this
subject! C-ya!
-Zizzy
> was aprox. 20 times higher. Thank you for calling, Mr./Mrs./ms.
> "Zizzy_PiP"
P.S. it's Mr. :-D
P.P.S I still like realmz 2.5 better that waht they did to it in 3.0
and 3.1
P.P.P.S i use the anonymous adress because some of the news groups i
post to are questionable and i'd like to remain anonymous
____
/
/
/
/
----
Zizzy_PiP
Chris Turner
> A post from the TSR Online Coordinator....
>
>
*Big huge MEGA-snip*
> > Enough daydreaming. Back to work. And back to hell with TSR.
>
> Wisconsin may be hot and muggy, but I somehow doubt that is hell.
> I'd classify Wyoming as hell, but only because they have too many state
> troopers that like to give speeding tickets....
>
I must comment that I've been following a lot of these posts loosely (I
just don't have the time to read them all) and am quite impressed with
your restraint. Lord knows I would have verbally slashed someone by now,
considering the amount of abuse directed your way. Even kept your sense
of humor. :)
I doff my cap to you.
I'll admit I've been disappointed by some of TSR's products, but you can't
please all the people all the time. As for their copyright policy, I
agree with it fully.
Being an artist myself, I know how important protecting your ideas and
artwork is. Ideas and concepts are an intangible thing, and the line
between original work and plagerism (sp?) are indistinct. Which is why
the copyright laws concerning such are very rigid and specific.
The way I see it, if TSR allowed someone to publish something that used
'just a few' things that were the same as D&D, that line would become even
more indistinct, and would make it harder for them to keep hold of their
ideas and concepts, which they have PAYED for. I'm sure a lot of people
see this as 'the big bad corporation' beating down on 'the little guy who
just used a couple of harmless ideas' but it's a matter of business.
I'm sure nobody out there, and I mean NOBODY, would want someone else to
use, even in part, one of their ideas. If you thought of a really cool
story idea with really cool characters, and someone else used even ONE of
those characters in their OWN story, you'd be ticked. It's the same with
the Fantasoft/TSR thing, except there is money involved, which makes it a
little more sticky.
But, as any two professional businesses should, they are working things
out so that there won't be any infringements in future versions. TSR's
had to do this, I've had to do this on occasion, a lot of people have.
It's part of the business. Sometimes you just don't know that you're
stepping on someone else's toes.
Well, that about covers my feelings on this subject, so I'll sit back and
take any flames coming my way and patiently wait until TSR and Fantasoft
announce what agreement they have come to.
Reply's and emails welcome.
-----Chris
The opinions expressed are mine, and do not reflect any opinions or
policies of Living Books.
--
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I have been given |
one moment from heaven | Chris Turner, Animator
as I am walking |
surrounded by night, | Chris_...@LivingBooks.com
Stars high above me |
make a wish under moonlight. | http://*Under Construction*
-Enya, 'On my way Home' |
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Dave Griffin
Chris Turner wrote:
>
> I'm sure nobody out there, and I mean NOBODY, would want someone else to
> use, even in part, one of their ideas. If you thought of a really cool
Well, the whole roleplaying game business (pen and paper RPG's)
is pretty incestious. Everybody uses attributes for defining a
character for example. TSR's proficiencies are a sort of copy of
all the other games which pioneered skill systems.
People spend considerable effort developing an idea, and they're
entitled to be rewarded if it's a good idea, but borrowing ideas
from other companies is a way of life. It should be acceptable to
be inspired by others, but not to copy them directly.
After all, I don't know if Talsorian had a deal with Gibson for
Cyberpunk, but then there were other games that popped out with
the same general theme. It's not always easy to see where the
acceptible borrowing stops and copyright infringement starts.
I see this as a grey area case. On the one hand, there was some
of their Art in early versions, and the spell name structure had
a lot of similarity, but I didn't see this as any more borrowing
than any game company does when they are trying to cash in on a
new "genre" of gaming.
Just my opinion, I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV).
mr. self destruct
in article <31ED5F...@mps.lfwc.lockheed.com>, thus spake Dave Griffin
<gri...@mps.lfwc.lockheed.com> :
> Chris Turner wrote:
> >
>
> > I'm sure nobody out there, and I mean NOBODY, would want someone else to
> > use, even in part, one of their ideas. If you thought of a really cool
Could I trademark 'The Book of Beasts'? If I could I still wouldn't
bother... The entire trademarking business has turned into some sort of
extreme "who can trademark the most combinations of words"-thing...
Copyright is ok, yes, but most of the changes asked for by TSR in terms of
Realmz seem to be trademarked stuff. I still feel, and will continue to do
so, that Fireball doesn't make much sense.
[chomp]
> I see this as a grey area case. On the one hand, there was some
> of their Art in early versions, and the spell name structure had
> a lot of similarity, but I didn't see this as any more borrowing
> than any game company does when they are trying to cash in on a
> new "genre" of gaming.
The art that was copied, art that I have not seen, was of course an
infringement on TSR copyrights. Removed eons ago, but still... Fantasoft
didn't make any money on that art. The spells involved are the same in
each and every game I've ever seen. The concept of drow was in part an
infringement on TSR copyright, but not 100 %. TSR's AD&D 2nd edition
Forgotten Realms series even includes three novels about the drow elf
Drizzt Do'Urden and a book called 'The Drow of the Underdark'. Realmz only
mentions that the drow come from the Underdark and worships a cruel
goddess... I guess I will have to settle with dark elves in the future.
Other changes done to Realmz 3.1, if ordered by TSR, seem to be overkill.
But that's just my opinion.
Hope I'm making sense... Too early in the morning to write news really,
but, as they say, early bird gets worm.
thomas
Worshipper of Vhaeraun
jsh
Jake Hoelter wrote:
> We did the Macintosh versions of both of those RPGs here at Presage
> Software, and really tried to make them true Macintosh applications. While
> Might and Magic III was released about two years before the PowerMacs
> first appeared, I updated the application later to make sure it would run
> fine on them. (I never did create a PPC native version of MM3 because much
> of the code was 68K assembly and it was two years old at that point, so
> the work wasn't worth it. But I did make sure it would run fine on modern
> systems.)
And, if anyone cares about _my_ opinion, y'all did a darned good job, too.
Haven't had a chance to try Xeen, but your 68K code runs just dandy on my
Powercurve. MM3 has given me many months' worth of fun evenings.
Thanks, y'all!
jill