Running Windows95 on a 6100/66 DOS Compatible
Modem Man
Has anybody achieved this? Successfully? If so, care to share your
experience? I'm running Win95 (ack, pfthhhh) at the office, and for some
bizarre occult reason I'd need to run it on my home machine (yechh). Any
help/info would be appreciated.
Specifically, I'd like to try installing it over my existing Windows 3.1
setup, but I have some fears as to driver compatibility and so forth...
Christian
chdu...@odyssee.net
--
chdu...@odyssee.net
Desktop & HTML publisher, Renaissance Man
Anime and Asian SciFi Addict
http://www.odyssee.net/~chdupuis/
R Shapiro
chdu...@odyssee.net (Modem Man) wrote:
>Has anybody achieved this?
Many people seem to be running W95 on the DOS card.
>Successfully?
Completely, except for clipboard-transfer (not yet supported for W95).
>If so, care to share your experience?
Install from the cd-rom, not the floppies; and to handle certain types of
sounds properly, the SoundBlaster driver needs a slight tweak. That's
pretty much it.
SoundBlaster tweak (from jja...@esslink.com (John Jacobs)). Do this after
the installation of W95, not before:
You need to tell Windows 95 that the DOS card only has one DMA channel for
the soundblaster. Open the System control panel and select the device
manager tab. Then select the Creative Labs sound blaster under the Sound,
Video, and Game controller. Click properties. Select resources. De-select
the use automatic settings option and set the settings based on the Basic
configuration 7. Click OK.
--
rs/rsha...@bbn.com
Erik Karlberg
don't remember). It worked all right, but it was not that fast.
Erik
Mike -n- Val Stephens
Yeah, I have this machine with Win95 running successfully! I bought
an 8meg, 72 pin stick for the 486DX card and it runs great. Email
me for more info =)
Val
(had to load it with the cds, disks made it mess up)
Modem Man (chdu...@odyssee.net) wrote:
: See subject line.
: Has anybody achieved this? Successfully? If so, care to share your
: experience? I'm running Win95 (ack, pfthhhh) at the office, and for some
: bizarre occult reason I'd need to run it on my home machine (yechh). Any
: help/info would be appreciated.
: Specifically, I'd like to try installing it over my existing Windows 3.1
: setup, but I have some fears as to driver compatibility and so forth...
: Christian
: chdu...@odyssee.net
: --
: chdu...@odyssee.net
: Desktop & HTML publisher, Renaissance Man
: Anime and Asian SciFi Addict
: http://www.odyssee.net/~chdupuis/
--
)|||||( /====\
| | /| |\
|@ @ | //| @ @|\\
| U | ///| U |\\\
------------------------------------oo0O-------O0oo----o0O----O0o-------------
Opinions exressed here may not be the opinions of both Michael AND Valerie..
you never know when one's in a bad mood.
David Brown
Modem Man (chdu...@odyssee.net) wrote:
: Has anybody achieved this? Successfully? If so, care to share your
: experience? I'm running Win95 (ack, pfthhhh) at the office, and for some
: bizarre occult reason I'd need to run it on my home machine (yechh). Any
: help/info would be appreciated.
: Specifically, I'd like to try installing it over my existing Windows 3.1
: setup, but I have some fears as to driver compatibility and so forth...
I gathered all my notes and started to edit them into a document, and
discovered that I had saved a pretty good overview from the net - see below.
(The note is by Larry Mollica dated Feb; Larry - have you updated
your note?).
FYI, I have 16mb RAM on the DOS card; on the Mac side, I have 24mb
RAM, Sys 7.5.1, CDROM 5.0.1, SpeedDoubler 1.12.
I have MacTCP set to "EtherTalk" (i.e. uses a KIP gateway - in our
case, a Telebit NetBlazer router) so that I can run TCP/IP on the DOS
card as well.
I connect via ethernet to primarily WinNT servers with Microsoft
Networking over IPX/SPX (enable the NetBIOS over IPX/SPX checkbox in
the Properties for IPX/SPX transport). Actually, since adding TCP/IP
to my Win95 setup, it's possible that MS Network Client is now running
over IP instead of IPX - I'm not sure.
We also have Novell NetWare servers, but I haven't connected to them
with Win95 yet (I have with Win3.1 - in fact, that is the Apple
supported networking..).
I also use the Win95 client for Microsoft SNA Server (which runs on
WinNT) - I struggled for a long time without success to connect via
Microsoft Networking (named pipes) since I had used that with WFWG; I
finally switched to running the SNA client over IP and it worked right
away.
My company has several products for IBM connectivity from Win95
(StarSQL - an ODBC driver - & Star5250 - a terminal emulator) and I
run those all the time (I use them with the MS SNA Server).
I have Office95 installed but use only Query & Access (for StarSQL
testing). I also run ODBCTest32 a lot.
I found a program suite called "Nexus" at ftp.microsoft.com that
allows some remote administration of a WinNT machine from Win95; I
have used that occasionally, but it felt pretty slow. (normally
remote administration has to be done from another WinNT machine).
I use a number of 16 bit Win apps, though the only ones that come to
mind are IBM BookManager Read/Win and IBM XVIEW for viewing INF
documents.
Occasionally I will use some of the Win95-supplied TCP/IP apps (ping,
telnet, etc) but mostly to verify connectivity - I prefer the Mac
versions of these types of apps.
I haven't used the serial port at all with Win95, but have used it on
Win3.1 and WFWG (e.g. NetManager Chameleon Sampler SLIP/PPP driver;
IBM Passport terminal emulator, IBM AS/400 console support).
I don't use any sound support (I found the extra detour through the
DOS card affected the volume of the sound output from the Mac, and I'd
rather play music CD's from the Mac than play games on the PC). If
there was ever sound in, I might consider re-instating it, since there
are some wonderful internet phone apps for Win & Win95 that haven't
made it to the Mac yet. But I have my doubts on whether the DOS card
running Win95 could handle the task.
I found the network performance to be better under Win95 than WFWG.
I believe you can get the Novell pieces you need (ODIHLP.EXE & LSL.COM?)
from ftp.novell.com as part of the VLM client (i.e. you will need to
download the entire client package to find a couple of small pieces).
Reply (the folks who actually designed the card for Apple) have
announced a networking update $200 that will allow TCP/IP to be active
on both DOS & Mac without having to result to using a KIP gateway, and
provides a true NDIS driver (instead of having to use a NDIS-ODI shim).
At MacWorld, they said it would be available in Feb; don't know if
it's ready yet. I'm rather hoping that Apple will be redistributing it
(or something like it) in a future version of PC Setup (there are
rumors of new software from Apple).
David Brown
davb...@netcom.com
Also, fyi, here are my important files:
NET.CFG:
Link Driver MACODI
Frame Ethernet_802.3
Frame Ethernet_II
Frame Ethernet_802.2
Frame Ethernet_SNAP
protocol IP 800 Ethernet_II
protocol ARP 806 Ethernet_II
protocol RARP 8035 Ethernet_II
LINK SUPPORT
MAX BOARDS 4
BUFFERS 4 1500
MEMPOOL 4095
NetWare DOS Requester
FIRST NETWORK DRIVE = J
CONFIG.SYS:
FILES=40
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\Apple\CDROM.
SYS /D:CDDRVR
AUTOEXEC.BAT:
C:\WINDOWS\lsl.com
c:\nwclient\macodi
rem - By Windows 95 Network - C:\WINDOWS\net start
rem @CALL C:\NWCLIENT\STARTNET
@ECHO OFF
PROMPT $p$g
PATH C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\NWCLIENT\;c:\dos;c:\bin;C:\READIBMW;C:\SNA.WIN;
SET TEMP=C:\DOS
rem C:\Apple\ApplePC
rem C:\Apple\MacShare
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /S /D:CDDRVR /L:E
set tmp=C:\Temp
C:\WINDOWS\odihlp.exe
----------------
From: tl...@chevron.com (Larry Mollica)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How do I provide TCP/IP services to the Apple DOS card in the PowerMac 6100 running Windows95
Keywords: 6100 DOS Win95 Windows95
Date: 2 Feb 96 06:47:35 GMT
Organization: Not very
In article <bmartin-3101...@oahu-86.u.aloha.net>, bma...@misl.com (Brian K. Martin, M.D.) wrote:
> Subject says it all. 1-800-SOS-APPL said "we can't answer questions about
> third-party products". Maybe someone on the net knows the answer.
>
> We've got a 6100 with an Apple DOS-compatoble card installed in the PDS
> slot. We've installed Windows 95. We are doing some cross-platform
> development and need to test a windows-based database client that is
> supposed to talk to a mac-based database server over tcp/ip.
>
> We checked with Apple prior to buying the card, and were told that we
> would get everything we needed in order to access tcp/ip services from the
> DOS compatible card. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Brian K. Martin, M.D.
> mi...@misl.com
Well, here I go again, with updates & network notes added...2/1/96
Some random rambling observations and notes on
The 6100 DOS Card & Windows 95
(or; I share The Pain)
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, I'm just sluggin' my way through this.
This stuff is worked for me, I'm not about to say it's The Right Way.
All I know for sure is, it was mostly found out The Hard Way...
CONTENTS:
APPLE DOC'S
APPLE SOFTWARE
WIN95 UPGRADE NOTES
So much for CUT & PASTE
RAM
RAM DOUBLER
NETWORK
Network Adapter
TCP/IP
IPX
SOUND
DOS CARD HEAT
APPLE DOC'S (well, sort of...):
-------------------------------
You may want to take a look at this Apple Technical Library document:
"DOS Compatibility Card: Windows 95 is Compatible (9/95)"
Then sit back and condsider that the company that made computers
easy, wrote this thing. Oh, never mind.
Available at:
http://www.austin.apple.com/cgi-bin/read.wais.doc.pl?/wais/TIL/
DOS!and!Windows!Environment/Pwr!Mac!DOS!Compatibility!Card/
DOS!Compat!Cd!!Is!Win95!Compat
or
gopher://info.apple.com:70/00/TIL/DOS%20and%20Windows%20Environment/
Pwr%20Mac%20DOS%20Compatibility%20Card/
DOS%20Compat%20Cd%20%20Is%20Win95%20Compat
You should probably go crusing for other DOS Card TIL titles as well.
APPLE SOFTWARE:
---------------
Current version of PC setup (as of this moment) is 1.0.7
Available at:
ftp://ftp.support.apple.com/pub/apple_sw_updates/US/Macintosh/
System%20Software/Other%20System%20Software/PC_Setup_1.0.7.hqx
WIN95 UPGRADE NOTES:
--------------------
Step #1: Disable (Mac) RAM Doubler, if used (see RAM below).
Windows95 FLOPPY disk version cannot be installed on a 6100.
"...the disks are in a special 1.7 Mbyte format... that
Mac SuperDrives can't read!" - MacWeek 1.29.96 p20
You must install from CD ROM.
If you can make the container big enough, copy the CD's SOURCE95 directory
to C:\SOURCE95 and do your install from that. Believe me, you
don't want it any slower than the hard drive, and you'll probably end up
doing lots of tweaks that win95 will want the source files for, again
and again and again...
Still to be resolved:
I did a "clean" install on top of DOS 6.22 (without first installing
Windows 3.1). I did not use any apple drivers, other than CDROM.SYS,
MACODI.COM, etc. I used sound & video drivers as supplied with win95. This
may have been a mistake, but right now it's too much trouble to start
over. When I get time I'll try installing win95 on top of win 3.1 with all
the various Apple tweaks (minus the Cut & Paste stuff) and see if that
works any better. But I'd be just as happy if someone else who really
knows could tell me and save me the trouble(?)
Also; I'd like to know just how much of the old CONFIG.SYS really needs to
remain for Win95. Obviously apple CDROM.SYS has to load there, but what's
the story on the old memory management crap? Should the drivers that must
remain LOADHIGH? I just don't have the time to pursue this stuff on my
own, and for some reason the local windows gods can't seem to give me a
clear answer.
The Apple TIL doc "...Windows 95 is Compatible" was no help on either of
these issues, by the way. What a shock.
Nor, for that matter, does it bother to mention that the win95 floppy
version won't play... Gee, thanks for the help!
So much for CUT & PASTE:
------------------------
You probably already know that all Cut & Paste functions between the Mac
side & DOS die if you go Win95. Word is that new drivers will someday fix
this; let's hope so. There are clunky work-arounds (see the above TIL
doc).
You can get rid of all the associated apple drivers in AUTOEXEC.BAT, but;
Important: Leave "PC Clipboard" in the Mac system extension folder.
It will get very testy and possibly hang if you run the PC without it.
RAM:
----
I started out with 16M of RAM on the DOS card. I haven't even bothered to
try 6100 shared RAM with win95 as I assume it would suck, and; I don't
have enough Mac RAM to accommodate even windows 3.1, which brings me to:
RAM DOUBLER:
... on my Mac does NOT work with win95; and that's with a DOS card
RAM simm installed, _NOT_ 6100 shared RAM.
With Ram Doubler 1.5.1, the system would hang if I tried to access the
floppy from the PC on Win95 or win 3.1. I also suspect this was
responsible for corrupting DOS containers when I oppened them from the
Mac side.
The upgrade to current RAM Doubler 1.6.1 includes DOS card fixes which
may actually fix the file access from win 3.1 (I haven't checked),
BUT, hangs the Mac sometime during Win95 boot. The color bar animation on
the win95 logo screen keeps going, but nothing else happens, drive
activity stops, can't switch back to mac, requires mac re-boot to recover.
No fun.
"Solution": disable Ram Doubler for win95 boot. I'm using two different
extension manager sets to configure for mac Vs win95 boot. (Yes, it's pain
in the butt. If I could buy more Mac RAM, I would.)
NETWORK:
--------
I'm using only the _Microsoft_ Clients for MS Networks, and NetWare
Networks. Same goes for _Microsoft_ Network Protocols, for TCP/IP and
IPX/SPX, too.
I haven't played with anything else, so I can't say if what
follows will help or harm you. This is not a complete step-by-step,
sorry. I'm just concentrating on the snags I ran into
in the area of win95. (Bad assumtions make for long nites.)
There are several Apple TIL docs on network stuff, but 95% of
it is aimed at Windows 3.1 or DOS. Some it does apply, the trick
is to find out what.. especially if you're not a LAN god, and
I'm not.
For either TCP or IPX, start with:
You should be using Apple PC setup 1.0.7 or later (see APPLE SOFTWARE).
Modify AUTOEXEC.BAT so it will load C:\APPLE\MACODI.COM (Win95 won't
do this without help). Re-boot.
I made a C:\NWCLIENT directory and put the standard netware client stuff
we use here, in it (sorry, I don't know where to get Netware, I just know
we have it around here. It's either free or we have oodles of license.)
Later on, Windows95 network control panel setup will ask where to get
stuff like LSL.COM. Use "browse" and locate C:\NWCLIENT and it will
get whatever it needs from there. It will install that, and ODIHLP.EXE
from SOURCE95 (which I think is an "ODI to NDIS shim", whatever that is)
into AUTOEXEC.BAT in the order they're supposed to go.
Speaking of which, you can now go fiddle with the win95 network
control panel. Put in the ms clients, protocols, adaptor, etc.
Network Adapter:
The "Network adapter" to use is "Existing ODI Driver"
Don't try to add an eithernet "card".
TCP/IP:
If you've paid attention to the doc's, you already know you can't run
TCP/IP on the DOS card and the Mac at the same time. If you didn't
know that, you've skipped way too much, bud. Crack open them books...
After you are done with the Win95 Network control panel, you
must add the PROTOCOL statements into the LINK DRIVER section of
\WINDOWS\NET.CFG by hand. Win95 won't do it for you.
Link Driver MACODI
Frame Ethernet_II
Protocol IP 800 Ethernet_II
Protocol ARP 806 Ethernet_II
Protocol RARP 8035 Ethernet_II
The above is from an Apple TIL (here's where one was actually useful!).
The actual win95 generated NET.CFG will look different (see IPX below).
I'm using other settings, to match the PCs on our network.
Your mileage may vary...
IPX:
First set up IPX networking using the Win95 Network control panel.
The \WINDOWS\NET.CFG built by automatically by win95 after fooling
with the network control panel IPX was:
link driver MACODI
frame ETHERNET_802.2
frame ETHERNET_802.3
frame ETHERNET_II
frame ETHERNET_SNAP
link driver
If your IPX network uses ETHERNET_802.2 type frame, it will probably
work as is; you're done.
If you use a different frame type for IPX, you need to modify NET.CFG
to make the frame type you use, the FIRST frame statement; i.e. if
your IPX frame is Ethernet II, then make it read:
link driver MACODI
frame ETHERNET_II
frame ETHERNET_802.3
frame ETHERNET_802.2
frame ETHERNET_SNAP
This got IPX working, both the "Client for Microsoft Networks" and the
"Client for NetWare Networks" like it fine. Don't bother removing
"unused" frame types, Win95 will just put them back in later (but,
happily, after the existing one, so no big whoop).
(Yes, I tried setting:
Network control panel IPX/SPX - properties - Advanced - Property:
"FrameType" to Value:"Eithernet II"
This didn't do squat.)
SOUND:
------
I dunno what kind of sounds are in the Jungle, Robotz, and Utopia sound
"schemes", but trying to play any of them hang the PC. The standard
windows sounds work OK (but for christ sake, TRASH that "tada.wav"
thing... ugh.) Utopia indeed.
DOS CARD HEAT:
I've seen lots of posts describing "tremendous" heat generated by
the DOS card. The only time mine got tremendously hot, was when
I was operating it with the cover off the 6100. Then it got HOT.
Without the cover on, the fan cannot draw airflow past the CPUs, as it's
way over inside the power supply. When I was testing with the cover
off, it got much hotter in a short time, than running all day with the
cover on. I'm wondering if all the stories of toasting DOS cards might
have something to do with the above.
That said, it can't hurt to keep things cool. You can buy CPU fans,
of course. I did something else. I don't have any temp measurements
to back this theory up (sorry, no damn time), but I believe the insides
of the box are cooler for it:
My assumption is; it's a dumb idea that the 6100 hot air exhausts on the
underside of the computer, as the air intake is also on the underside of
the box. If the "cool" air drawn in the intake (which is directed right at
the CPUs) was not at least 50% HOT air from the exhaust, I would be
astonished.
I put a piece of foam weather-stripping across the bottom of the 6100 to
segregate the hot air (coming from fan the in the right rear corner), from
the intake in the front left corner.
I ran the strip on a diagonal from the inside edges of the front right
foot (viewed from the front), to the back left foot, so as to avoid the
speaker. I also thought the wide feet would further divert the output air
from the intake.
Ideally, one might take measurements of the intake air temp before & after.
(If anyone tries this, lemmie know...)
--
Larry Mollica
tl...@chevron.com | "I just work here, ok?"
--
David Brown; Berkeley CA davb...@netcom.com