Lisp discount going bye-bye very soon
Mark Conrad
for $495 and downloaded it. (6.6 MB)
Supposedly it is Mac OSX "native".
My purchase saved me $155, the final version will go for $750.
The update to the final version is free to those who purchase the beta,
assuming the beta is bought before the final version is released.
I would highly suggest that anyone interested get on the ball and buy
the beta pronto, because the final version is due out shortly.
(in fact it is overdue, was supposed to be out January, 2003)
Digitool's propaganda on the product -
************************************************
Vendor: Digitool
Product Type: Application
Description: Macintosh Common Lisp 5.0 beta (MCL 5.0b) is a MacOSX
native object-oriented dynamic language (OODL) from Digitool, Inc. It
implements the ANSI standard for the Common Lisp programming language
and CLOS, and is fully integrated with the Macintosh family of personal
computers.
This release is a beta and its discounted price includes the final
release expected in January 2003.
MCL is a completely integrated development environment, including a
fast incremental compiler which produces efficient native PowerPC code,
a window-based debugger, a source code stepper, a dynamic object
inspector, a stack backtrace inspector, a programmable Macintosh-style
emacs-like editor, online documentation, and an interactive interface
toolkit.
MCL provides both high-level object-oriented user interface class
library and complete low-level access to the Macintosh Toolbox. Using
MCL, you can create a standalone double-clickable Macintosh application
using less than 2MB of disk space which can be run with 2MB or more of
memory.
The MCL 5 Single User License gives one person the right to use MCL for
program development purposes. The current release includes MCL 5.0 beta
for the MacOSX platform. When you purchase this product you get:
* Electronically downloadable archive containing:
* MCL 5.0 application
* MCL compiler
* MCL libraries and example files
* Software License Agreement
* Registration Card
Version: 5.0B
Languages: English
OS Platforms: MacOS, MacOS 9.x, MacOS X
Application Platforms: MCL, MCL 5.x
Price: $495.00
Customization: No
Sample Files: mcl-5.0-release-notes
Downloadable Files
(after purchase):
mcl-5.0.sea.bin
mcl-5.0.sea.hqx
*************************************************
End of Digitool's propaganda -
Mark-
Jason
> I hot-footed over to the Digitool website, bought the beta version 5.0b
> for $495 and downloaded it. (6.6 MB)
>
> Supposedly it is Mac OSX "native".
You downloaded it - don't you KNOW?
Tom Stiller
Mark Conrad <nos...@iam.invalid> wrote:
> I hot-footed over to the Digitool website, bought the beta version 5.0b
> for $495 and downloaded it. (6.6 MB)
>
> Supposedly it is Mac OSX "native".
>
> My purchase saved me $155, the final version will go for $750.
>
> The update to the final version is free to those who purchase the beta,
> assuming the beta is bought before the final version is released.
>
> I would highly suggest that anyone interested get on the ball and buy
> the beta pronto, because the final version is due out shortly.
>
> (in fact it is overdue, was supposed to be out January, 2003)
>
>
> Digitool's propaganda on the product -
[was snipped]
How much did DigiTool pay you to advertise their product on usenet?
--
Tom Stiller
PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
Tom Harrington
<tomstiller-0031C...@news.comcast.giganews.com>,
Tom Stiller <tomst...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lisp has a way of inspiring near-religious fervor in people. Kind of
like Mac OS, really. The devoted gladly promote products without pay.
:-) I never caught the Lisp bug, but I've seen enough cases to
recognize it when I see it.
--
Tom "Tom" Harrington
Macaroni, Automated System Maintenance for Mac OS X.
Version 1.3: Now runs the Mac OS X "Repair Priviliges" Utility.
See http://www.atomicbird.com/
Rolf Marvin Bře Lindgren
| Lisp has a way of inspiring near-religious fervor in people. Kind of
| like Mac OS, really.
definitely.
Lisp is not only designed they way all programming languages should be
designed, it is the only programming language that anybody ought to
know (save C for system-close code). too bad the really good systems
are so expensive.
--
Rolf Lindgren http://www.roffe.com/
ro...@tag.uio.no
Jason
> [Tom Harrington]
>
> | Lisp has a way of inspiring near-religious fervor in people. Kind of
> | like Mac OS, really.
>
> definitely.
>
> Lisp is not only designed they way all programming languages should be
> designed, it is the only programming language that anybody ought to
> know (save C for system-close code). too bad the really good systems
> are so expensive.
I think Lisp is quite possibly the most hideous programming language ever conceived :)
Sure, it might seem elegant, to an Android :)
Mark Conrad
<matreya...@currawong.net> wrote:
> > Supposedly it is Mac OSX "native".
>
> You downloaded it - don't you KNOW?
It isn't that easy, when it comes to computer languages, because they
have so many hooks into low-level stuff inside the Mac OSX kernel.
They advertise it as being native, but it remains to be seen if all
their stuff actually works that way in practice, with Mac OSX.
Digitool has a rather long disclaimer list about stuff that presently
does _not_ work in the $495 beta version of their product, mainly
because of bugs in OSX itself.
Hopefully over time Apple will get around to fixing those bugs.
Digitool makes good software, IMO. I have used their software for
years with Mac OS-8.6 and everything works as advertised, including all
the low-level hooks.
Mac OSX could be a different story of course, I will see once I get a
chance to wring it out.
Mark-
Mark Conrad
> > Digitool's propaganda on the product -
>
> [was snipped]
>
> How much did DigiTool pay you to advertise their product on usenet?
Nary a cent. The reason I included the admittedly brief advertising
blurb was to give interested Lisp folks some idea what they were
shelling out $495 for, and to avoid having to answer their questions in
follow-up posts.
It worked, no follow-up questions about the beta software to date :)
Mark-
Mark Conrad
<t...@pcisys.no.spam.dammit.net> wrote:
> Lisp has a way of inspiring near-religious fervor in people. Kind of
> like Mac OS, really. The devoted gladly promote products
> without pay. :-) I never caught the Lisp bug, but I've seen
> enough cases to recognize it when I see it.
Uh, I hardly qualify as having near-religious fervor, because my last
diddling with Lisp was many years ago.
Even then, I knew very little about the language, not being all that
interested in it.
Lisp, like all computer languages, has drawbacks.
My original post was merely intended to alert those very few people who
use Lisp that they could save $255 if they acted promptly.
Mark-
Mark Conrad
<ro...@aqualene.uio.no> wrote:
> definitely.
Naw, not "Common Lisp", which is what this product is - no religious
fervor whatever. Common Lisp is to Lisp what C++ is to C.
Namely, an over-expanded version of Lisp with everything thrown in
including the kitchen sink - - - and a lot of critically "good" things
like "continuations" left out.
Common Lisp is designed for quickly prototyping new _concepts_ in
software, like a new computer language. The price one pays for having
a whole bunch of software tools in one language like "Common Lisp" is
that other critical things are sacrificed. For sheer language
flexibility, the "Scheme" dialect of Lisp is hard to beat. Generally,
Scheme can do everything that Common-Lisp can do, but it just takes
longer. (much longer, negating the prototyping advantage of Lisp)
By contrast, the high-priced commercial "Common-Lisp" made by Digitool
can _not_ do a bunch of stuff that Scheme can do. Unfortunately, the
commercial version of CL is the only game in town when it comes to fast
prototyping. Scheme can't compete mainly because of the lack of all
the ready-to-use software tools supplied with Common Lisp. (CLOS, for
example)
Now for real religious fervor, the dialect of Lisp known as "Scheme" is
the cat's meow as far as programming languages are concerned. I can do
stuff with Scheme that is impossible to do with Common Lisp.
For example, with free "Scheme" it should be possible to create a
"Super-C-Language", let's call it C+++.
...with first-class functions, fully automatic garbage collection, and
real "continuations" as part of the new language, instead of the lame
"exceptions" that regular C has.
The process for designing such a super-language is described in living
color in books like "Essentials of Programming Languages". The book
uses a free version of Scheme called "Chez" Scheme, but almost any free
version of Scheme should suffice.
The three authors are all professors of computer science. (eggheads)
ISBN 0-262-06145-7 (MIT Press)
Only problem is, there is no current commercial version of Scheme
produced by anyone, because the market for it is too small.
(eggheads, computer-language-designers, etc.)
Many free versions of Scheme are available, each with their relative
strengths and weaknesses.
My _only_ interest in Lisp is as a hobbyist. I actually know very
little about Lisp, not having played with it for years.
> too bad the really good systems are so expensive.
...uh, perhaps I better not mention the $50,000 price tag that Digitool
charges for commercial stand-alone Lisp application licenses :)
Mark-
Jason
Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
Mark Conrad
<matreya...@currawong.net> wrote:
> Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
I doubt it, considering that Digitool charges a fortune to sell their
own compiler, up in the thousands of dollars as I recall.
To make it worse, Digitool is the only vendor of commercial common-Lisp
for the Mac. (named MCL, for "Macintosh Common Lisp")
Free common-lisp app's are available, but unfortunately they are no
where near the quality of the commercial offering from Digitool.
Digitool themselves makes a very excellent free demo version 4.3 -
which runs for 15-minutes at a time. I have been running that demo for
years :)
The demo won't run on OSX, just runs on older Mac OSs, like OS9, OS8.
Mark-
Joe Davison
>
> Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
I'm running clisp on my G4. It's available via Fink.
joe
Jason
> In article <240220031450466761%matreya...@currawong.net>, Jason
> <matreya...@currawong.net> wrote:
>
> > Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
>
> I doubt it, considering that Digitool charges a fortune to sell their
> own compiler, up in the thousands of dollars as I recall.
Do a search for Lisp :)
Rainer Joswig
> In article <240220031450466761%matreya...@currawong.net>, Jason
> <matreya...@currawong.net> wrote:
>
> > Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
>
> I doubt it, considering that Digitool charges a fortune to sell their
> own compiler, up in the thousands of dollars as I recall.
Why doubt? Make an informed guess.
Digitool's Lisp costs $495 currently. For students it is cheaper.
See: http://www.digitool.com/purchase.html .
That's hardly thousands of dollars.
There is an Open Source version of the MCL Lisp compiler.
It is called, surprise, OpenMCL. It runs on MacOS X and PPC Linux.
A demo shows how it can do Cocoa user interfaces.
Look here: http://openmcl.clozure.com/
> To make it worse, Digitool is the only vendor of commercial common-Lisp
> for the Mac. (named MCL, for "Macintosh Common Lisp")
Wrong again. Franz Inc. sells Allegro CL for Mac OS X.
See: http://www.franz.com/products/allegrocl/
Xanalys has asked their users some time ago, whether a Mac OS X
version of its LispWorks would be interesting. Give them feedback,
if you would be interested that they port it to the Mac and
whether you would BUY it.
> Free common-lisp app's are available, but unfortunately they are no
> where near the quality of the commercial offering from Digitool.
The compiler of OpenMCL is quite nice. OpenMCL can be used via
a GNU Emacs. There is also CLISP. And some more...
Rainer Joswig
Mark Conrad
Joswig <jos...@corporate-world.lisp.de> wrote:
> > > Jason wrote -
> > > Aren't there open-source Lisp compilers available?
> > >
> > To make it worse, Digitool is the only vendor of commercial common-Lisp
> > for the Mac. (named MCL, for "Macintosh Common Lisp")
>
> Wrong again. Franz Inc. sells Allegro CL for Mac OS X.
Isn't Allegro a rather ancient version of Common Lisp, not up to modern
recent standards for the language?
I would assume that Franz has made some effort to update Allegro, but
you gotta remember that most of Franz's efforts go towards supporting
Wintel software, not Macs.
> Digitool's Lisp costs $495 currently. For students it is cheaper.
> That's hardly thousands of dollars.
I think Jason was refering to a stand-alone compiler, not certain what
he meant. The $495 package is the MCL application itself, not a
stand-alone compiler. To confuse matters further, the $495 package
includes the ordinary "incremental" compiler which is part the MCL
application itself, part of modern Common-Lisp, so to speak.
Somewhere on the Digitool website is a price list for the various
stand-alone compilers that Digitool sells - as I recall it was very
pricey, one software offering sold for $50,000 - - - I was so shocked
that I forgot to copy the price list, leaving that web page pronto.
> There is an Open Source version of the MCL Lisp compiler.
> It is called, surprise, OpenMCL. It runs on MacOS X and PPC Linux.
> A demo shows how it can do Cocoa user interfaces.
I am really confused as to exactly what OpenMCL does.
I _thought_ that if I waited for my free update to the final version
of Digitool's MCL for OSX, that was all I needed in order to have the
latest and greatest version of Common-Lisp for OSX.
Keep in mind that I am a mere hobbyist so far as Common-Lisp is
concerned, I know very little about it, but would like to learn more.
I kinda realize that the latest OSX version of MCL is more or less
intended for a highly productive Lisp developer who already knows a lot
about common-Lisp, and is prolific in grinding out Lisp programs for
profit.
Mark-
Rainer Joswig
> Isn't Allegro a rather ancient version of Common Lisp,
???
> not up to modern
> recent standards for the language?
Wrong.
> I would assume that Franz has made some effort to update Allegro, but
> you gotta remember that most of Franz's efforts go towards supporting
> Wintel software, not Macs.
Wrong again. Why don't you just check their site. Allegro CL runs
on quite a lot Unix systems. Allegro CL runs many mission critical
applications on Unix machines.
Allegro CL for Mac OS X is basically the same offering as for AIX 5.x,
Tru64 5, FreedBSD 4.x, HP UX 11.00, IRIX 6.5, Linux or Solaris 9.
> The $495 package is the MCL application itself, not a
> stand-alone compiler.
Look, MCL is a development system. With every MCL you can create
MCL standalone applications. I do it all day.
> To confuse matters further, the $495 package
> includes the ordinary "incremental" compiler which is part the MCL
> application itself, part of modern Common-Lisp, so to speak.
>
> Somewhere on the Digitool website is a price list for the various
> stand-alone compilers that Digitool sells - as I recall it was very
> pricey, one software offering sold for $50,000 - - - I was so shocked
> that I forgot to copy the price list, leaving that web page pronto.
Mark, why don't you just reread it again. Then you don't have to
write such confused stuff.
MCL costs $495. With it you can create Lisp applications.
If you want to sell those Lisp applications to your customers,
you have to get a "MCL Redistribution License" - which is
for commercial developers $750, with educational discount it
is $525 and for students it is $450.
So it is $495 + $750. AND NOT $50000.
The $50000 package is an unlimited world-wide license. So, if
you were VW, Daimler Benz, Bayer, Porsche, - just some global
acting company - then you would buy it and you could use
internally as many copies of MCL as you want everywhere
on the planet (in space, too). Are you in that league?
> > There is an Open Source version of the MCL Lisp compiler.
> > It is called, surprise, OpenMCL. It runs on MacOS X and PPC Linux.
> > A demo shows how it can do Cocoa user interfaces.
>
> I am really confused as to exactly what OpenMCL does.
OpenMCL is a Lisp system. It runs Common Lisp software on
Mac OS X and Unix. It has a native code compiler. It
does not have the development environment and libraries
of MCL. It does have some other libraries, though.
> I _thought_ that if I waited for my free update to the final version
> of Digitool's MCL for OSX, that was all I needed in order to have the
> latest and greatest version of Common-Lisp for OSX.
Depends on what you want to do.
> I kinda realize that the latest OSX version of MCL is more or less
> intended for a highly productive Lisp developer who already knows a lot
> about common-Lisp, and is prolific in grinding out Lisp programs for
> profit.
MCL is also extremely useful for students, who want to learn Lisp
and write some Lisp software. MCL has an easy to use user interface
with some easy to use tools. It has a simple UI library, which
is easy to use. And it has an active user community which shares
a lot of code.
Rainer Joswig
Mark Conrad
Joswig <jos...@corporate-world.lisp.de> wrote:
> Mark, why don't you just reread it again. Then you don't have to
> write such confused stuff.
Hokay, thanks for taking the time and effort to straighten me out a
little, obviously I had it all wrong.
I will go back and re-read the Digitool web site pages.
> MCL is also extremely useful for students, who want to learn Lisp
> and write some Lisp software. MCL has an easy to use user interface
> with some easy to use tools. It has a simple UI library, which
> is easy to use.
Aha, that is exactly what I need at this stage, because for me CL is
just a hobby - I like "easy" :)
> And it has an active user community which
> shares a lot of code.
Do you happen to know where they hang out. The MCL newsgroup seems to
not have much traffic, every time I check it out.
Mark-
Rainer Joswig
> > MCL is also extremely useful for students, who want to learn Lisp
> > and write some Lisp software. MCL has an easy to use user interface
> > with some easy to use tools. It has a simple UI library, which
> > is easy to use.
>
> Aha, that is exactly what I need at this stage, because for me CL is
> just a hobby - I like "easy" :)
MCL is very good for that purpose.
> > And it has an active user community which
> > shares a lot of code.
>
> Do you happen to know where they hang out. The MCL newsgroup seems to
> not have much traffic, every time I check it out.
The action is on Digitool's info-mcl mailing list.
Read more about the mailing list and how to get subscribed:
http://www.digitool.com/contact.html#discussion-forum
Actually it is all on Digitool's site. Just a bit of browsing needed.
You can also read the mailing list via GMANE:
http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.lisp.mcl.general
http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.lisp.mcl.announce
For MCL software contributions look here:
ftp://ftp.digitool.com/pub/mcl/contrib/
Just remember that MCL currently is in transition to MacOS X and
that what you currently get is a beta - with a final release
probably not far away.
Rainer Joswig
Mark Conrad
Joswig <jos...@corporate-world.lisp.de> wrote:
> The action is on Digitool's info-mcl mailing list.
Thanks very much for all the pointers to the various places, regarding
MCL activity among users.
Now life would be complete if I could locate a modern commercial
"Scheme" application, but I am fairly certain such an animal does not
exist.
I was able to buy them back in the 1990s, but the commercial vendors
apparently went out of business because of the small demand for their
products.
I don't know if the Scheme community ever 'standardized' how to handle
continuations, last I heard there were two seperate ways of handling
them, depending on the version of Scheme being used.
I think the "Chez" version of Scheme is used in a very fine Scheme book
which I value highly, even though it is becoming dated. (old)
Essentials of Programming Languages
ISBN 0-262-06145-7
MIT Press (1994)
Mark-
Rainer Joswig
> Now life would be complete if I could locate a modern commercial
> "Scheme" application, but I am fairly certain such an animal does not
> exist.
There are no commercial Scheme systems for Mac OS X as far as I know.
Just get DR-Scheme for MacOS X. For free.
and
More Scheme resources: http://www.schemers.org/
Mark Conrad
<matreya...@currawong.net> wrote:
Hmm, that must be why I like it ;-)
Like all programming languages, the Lisp family of languages have their
uses, things they are better at than other languages.
Admittedly, there is a small market for Lisp, which is why good
implementations of the language are so hard to find.
Don't confuse a small market with the value of the language.
A very active NG is comp.lang.lisp
A well-rounded programmer can benefit immensely by learning Lisp,
because then he would not make the mistake of trying to use C to do a
task which could better be done by using Lisp.
Typical Lisp code:
(my-function my-argument)
...or even simplier: (same function as above, by the way)
(my-function)
Tricky stuff that is hard to do in languages like C
(my-function my-function)
...because C lacks the concept of "first class functions"
(functions which can be used as arguments, among other things)
Last I checked, Lisp was a required subject for engineering students at
MIT, on the basis that the language improved their thinking skills, in
whatever engineering dicipline they specialized in.
One notable advantage of Lisp, IMO, is that it does not need
"object-oriented" capabilities to the extent that C does, for example.
"Straight" Lisp, without any OO features, has most of the benefits of
OO applications, like code re-usability, easy maintenance of programs,
and the "segmented" nature of programs.
For those really addicted to OO languages like C++, Lisp provides its
own extension to its language called CLOS (Common Lisp Object System) -
- - which has many added OO features not available in languages like
C++
I know precious little about any programming language, including Lisp,
so the above remarks are just my knee-jerk opinions.
I think my main fascination with Lisp is that it seems so easy to do
stuff in Lisp that is hard to do in other languages.
Mark-
Mark Conrad
<ro...@aqualene.uio.no> wrote:
[Tom Harrington]
> | Lisp has a way of inspiring near-religious fervor in people. Kind of
> | like Mac OS, really.
>
> definitely.
>
> Lisp is not only designed they way all programming languages should be
> designed, it is the only programming language that anybody ought to
> know (save C for system-close code). too bad the really good systems
> are so expensive.
Yes, that expense is directly related to the small market for Lisp.
Kinda like the market for a book:
"Training for the Job of Being President of the United States"
...a job with enormous consequences for ordinary people, but not a very
good market for an author trying to make money by writing a book.
I get the impression that you know Lisp, is that correct. If so, is it
mainly CL, Scheme, or both - - - just curious.
I would personally like to apply Lisp to the Mac and OSX, because I
believe the multitasking nature of OSX is well suited to paradigms like
stream programming, which is easy to do in Lisp.
Mark-