Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> Not at all.  Apple's system is not a walled garden.  More like an
>> exclusive country club where you get more but can also go anywhere off
>> of the club you want.
>
> The point is that *here* there are only 21% of iPhones, so those users
> have to get out of their walled garden to talk with the people, 80% of
> which are on Android. So, they don't use iMessages.

Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).

But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.

[Carlos E. R.]

That is not so.

Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
expensive, or is being phased out.

So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

MMS has no additional cost here but may contribute to the user's monthly
bandwidth plan limit.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> That is not so.
>
> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.

Hi Carlos,

I think I understood you but I don't think you understood me yet.
Maybe I am wrong though - so here's my always sensible logical path...

Look at it logically.
You complain about messaging, right? I don't. Right?
What's the difference?

*We're both on Android, right?*

I have absolutely zero issues communicating with iOS users.
You do.

*So the problem isn't Android.*

The problem (as I understand it) is you have to pay for MMS and I don't.

*But that has _nothing_ to do with Android.*

Nobody on Android is complaining because of Android.
You are complaining about the way you're billed for MMS.

That's different.
--
*Why are only some people having trouble with carrier messaging?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/6gFYKyubHy4>

[Wally J]

Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote

>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>
>> That is not so.
>>
>> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third party
>> tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient protocols
>> like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many countries it is
>> expensive, or is being phased out.
>
> MMS has no additional cost here but may contribute to the user's monthly
> bandwidth plan limit.

I have no problems using carrier messaging even as many of my own family
members are on iOS. Yet others need messaging to be improved. Why?

What's the fundamental problem?

1. I am aware that due to the fee structure in many places in Europe,
WhatsApp & RCS is useful to circumvent imposed carrier costs.

But that, in and of itself, has _nothing_ per se to do with Android.

2. I am also aware that iOS users see colored bubbles, which, for some
rather strange reason, seems to bother them - but they're iOS users.

What's the problem on Android that needs to be solved in messaging?

There are two ways to look at that question, which are fundamental:
A. What's the problem when Android users interact with Android users?
B. What's the problem when Android users interact with iOS users?

If there's a problem, why don't I experience it interacting with both?

[Jörg Lorenz]

On 09.12.23 21:05, Wally J wrote:
> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).

Bullshit. In the US more than 50% of the installed base are iPhones.
Hence the discussion here which in most other regions of the world are
absolutely irrelevant.

> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.

Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

[Jörg Lorenz]

I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.

[Jörg Lorenz]

In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-10 05:24, Wally J wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote

...

> What's the problem on Android that needs to be solved in messaging?
>
> There are two ways to look at that question, which are fundamental:
> A. What's the problem when Android users interact with Android users?
> B. What's the problem when Android users interact with iOS users?

For me, no photos or any multimedia content, just plain text, unless
they use WhatsApp.

>
> If there's a problem, why don't I experience it interacting with both?

You have free MMS. I don't.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
WhatsApp.

It is the same issue in both directions.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-10 10:37, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 09.12.23 21:05, Wally J wrote:
>> Carlos brings up the valid points that most of the world is on Android, and
>> most of the world seems to use WhatsApp (which is the same as iMessage
>> anyway, in terms of needing to connect to a middleman mothership server).
>
> Bullshit. In the US more than 50% of the installed base are iPhones.
> Hence the discussion here which in most other regions of the world are
> absolutely irrelevant.

It is relevant for me, who don't live in the USA.

>
>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>
> Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
> Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
> inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
> idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.

Bullshit. :-P

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe. MMS is still very
relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat with
images and video and not using a 3rd party app.

[Alan Browne]

Eh? I send/receive photos and videos to/from people with Android phones
all the time - using basic message service (cell phone). Of course such
is covered in data plans here as part of overall "data" so there are no
ridiculous charges as one may see in Europe and elsewhere.

[Jolly Roger]

No, they can send photos and multimedia.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> What's the problem on Android that needs to be solved in messaging?
>>
>> There are two ways to look at that question, which are fundamental:
>> A. What's the problem when Android users interact with Android users?
>> B. What's the problem when Android users interact with iOS users?
>
> For me, no photos or any multimedia content, just plain text, unless
> they use WhatsApp.
>
>>
>> If there's a problem, why don't I experience it interacting with both?
>
> You have free MMS. I don't.

Hi Carlos,

I'm always trying to understand everyone's problems, logically & sensibly.

Thanks for explaining that which I was aware of but which I don't associate
with "Android" per se, but with the way carriers charge for MMS messages.

I appreciate that patient answer as you know I know about Andy's and your
MMS issues being solved with RCS - but I was trying to figure out why only
the iOS users complained about their messaging app and not Android users.

I can _easily_ agree with you that if the solution to the MMS charges are a
different MMS app (such as Google's recently renamed app with RCS), then
that's a solution which is on Android - even as it's not an Android issue.

I'm all for using all the free capabilities that apps provide us, so I'm
100% with you and Andy and anyone else who wants free MMS who doesn't have
it (where it's never free but it's "bundled" into our service in the USA).

Your answer is helpful in that I am trying to explain to the iKooks that
nobody on Android is complaining about their Android messaging app per se.

It's only the iKooks who complain about it.

What you're complaining about is not that Android doesn't support RCS,
but that Apple doesn't yet support RCS (which is a different thing also).
--
Factual information + logic + sense = intelligent assessments of fact

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

>>>> Android users have to communicate with iPhone users using third
>>>> party tools, like WhatsApp, thats not popular in the USA, or ancient
>>>> protocols like SMS, which lack features. Or use MMS, which in many
>>>> countries it is expensive, or is being phased out.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.
>>>
>>> I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.
>>
>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>> not send photos or multimedia
>
> No, they can send photos and multimedia.

I strive to comprehend the fundamental problems involved - to solve them.

First off, it _is_ the iPhone people doing most of the complaining here.
But, there are _also_ some Android users also complaining about messaging.

As always, I strive to comprehend what the problem set is we're solving.

The Android users' complaint appears to be that Apple doesn't support RCS
yet and some people (those who are charged for MMS messages mostly)
naturally want to send MMS messages via RCS to Apple users. (That's NOT an
Android problem, by the way - that's clearly an iOS problem since there are
already a half dozen free Android messaging apps which support RCS.)

In addition, there are _plenty_ of cross-platform messaging apps which
support sending MMS messages over the Internet such as this Android app.
<https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>'
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcn1wfmWjU>

So it's not that the Android users can't send MMS for free; it's that they
want to send them to iOS users using either RCS or a different mechanism.

Which means Android has no problem sending those MMS images for free.
It's iOS that can't get them.

Now for the iOS side of the complaints, most of the complaints from the iOS
users appears to be about the color of the bubbles - which is just absurd.

Ignoring the silly color of the bubbles (heck, Android users can set any
conversation or group to any color they want to set them to - which is one
of the many things the utterly primitive iMessages system can't do) what
are the iOS users complaining about if it's NOT that they can't get the MMS
messages from Android users who want to send them for free via RCS?

Other than silly bubble colors, why are iOS users complaining so much here?

[Wally J]

Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote

>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
>> WhatsApp.
>
> Eh? I send/receive photos and videos to/from people with Android phones
> all the time - using basic message service (cell phone). Of course such
> is covered in data plans here as part of overall "data" so there are no
> ridiculous charges as one may see in Europe and elsewhere.

If I understand the problem set from Carlos & Andy Burns, it's NOT an
Andrloid problem - but - it _is_ an iOS inability to handle protocols.

Android users can send free MMS via RCS but iOS users can't receive them.
Whose fault is that?

In so many ways the primitive iMessages server system can't do the simplest
of things which Android has had for a very long time - where RCS is one.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> Bullshit. In the US more than 50% of the installed base are iPhones.
>> Hence the discussion here which in most other regions of the world are
>> absolutely irrelevant.
>
> It is relevant for me, who don't live in the USA.

Hi Carlos,
Please don't take anything jughead Lorenze says as if it were well thought
out. He's upset because the primitive iMessages system can't do this stuff.
<https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>'
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcn1wfmWjU>

>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>
>> Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
>> Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
>> inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
>> idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.
>
> Bullshit. :-P

Hi Carlos,

Nobody responds to Alan Baker or Jughead Lorenze if they want to have an
intelligent discussion that would befit an actual adult conversation.

Given iOS messages is nothing different than any Internet messaging
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> you log into iOS Messages!

*Apple Messages === WhatsApp* (they're the same thing fundamentally)

Clearly Jughead Lorenze isn't aware there are a half dozen Android apps
which support RCS (Jeorg is so ignorant, he only knows of Google's app)...

There are two fundamental ways to send those charge-for-MMS for free:
a. Use the same type of system Apple Messages uses (e.g., WhatsApp)
b. Use the same type of system Google Messags uses (i.e., RCS)

The problem is not on the Android side.
*The problem is on the iOS side.*

All the problems are due to the primitive iOS Messages not supporting even
the most basic of things (e.g., mere colors or reading RCS protocols).

Trust me that I use iOS messaging all the time and it's utter crap.
It's so primitive - it can't even set the color of a conversation.

WTF? *Why do iOS users put up with such primitive software?*(

I've tested _all_ the free messaging systems out there, and none are as
locked in primitive and non functional as the iOS messaging is, Carlos.

In summary, while I have no problem communicating with Android users, I
accept (and understand) that those who are billed for MMS messages would
prefer to use any of the half dozen free apps which support RCS.

Hence, the problem isn't Android.
It's iOS.

Specifically, the iOS platform is so primitive, it can't support common
modern interoperability standards that every other system easily supports.
--
What's new with Apple? Nothing. Apple is all marketing. And no engineering.

[Bernd Froehlich]

On 10. Dec 2023 at 13:22:31 CET, ""Carlos E. R."" <robin_...@es.invalid>
wrote:

> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
> WhatsApp.

Sorry, you are missing something:

Telegram, Signal, Threema for instance.

No WhatsApp over here and still happily communicating (and exchanging
pictures) with lots of Androids :-)

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-10 14:29, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-10 07:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-12-10 10:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 09.12.23 22:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.
>>>
>>> I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.
>>
>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch
>> to WhatsApp.
>
> Eh?  I send/receive photos and videos to/from people with Android phones
> all the time - using basic message service (cell phone).  Of course such
> is covered in data plans here as part of overall "data" so there are no
> ridiculous charges as one may see in Europe and elsewhere.

In Europe, and probably the entire world excep NA, iphone users can not
send photos to android users using imessage.

Two reasons: if MMS is available, it is expensive. And in several
countries or providers, MMS has been removed.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

Not in Europe, not probably in most of the world. Not using imessages.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-11 09:19, Bernd Froehlich wrote:
> On 10. Dec 2023 at 13:22:31 CET, ""Carlos E. R."" <robin_...@es.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
>> WhatsApp.
>
> Sorry, you are missing something:
>
> Telegram, Signal, Threema for instance.

Certainly, but we are talking of their native messaging tool that they
are so happy about, imessages.

As I said, two reasons: in Europe, and probably most of the world except
NA, MMS which is used to send photos to non Apple users is expensive or
has been removed, it is not even available.

>
> No WhatsApp over here and still happily communicating (and exchanging
> pictures) with lots of Androids :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-12-11 06:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-12-10 14:29, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-12-10 07:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-10 10:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> On 09.12.23 22:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, we do have problems and we do complain.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a fair statement. iPhone users do not complain.
>>>
>>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and
>>> can not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and
>>> switch to WhatsApp.
>>
>> Eh?  I send/receive photos and videos to/from people with Android
>> phones all the time - using basic message service (cell phone).  Of
>> course such is covered in data plans here as part of overall "data" so
>> there are no ridiculous charges as one may see in Europe and elsewhere.

[AAA]____________

>
> In Europe, and probably the entire world excep NA, iphone users can not
> send photos to android users using imessage.
>
> Two reasons: if MMS is available, it is expensive. And in several
> countries or providers, MMS has been removed.

Well, can't help that, and yes I noted the ridiculous charges. [AAA]

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> Eh?  I send/receive photos and videos to/from people with Android phones
>> all the time - using basic message service (cell phone).  Of course such
>> is covered in data plans here as part of overall "data" so there are no
>> ridiculous charges as one may see in Europe and elsewhere.
>
> In Europe, and probably the entire world excep NA, iphone users can not
> send photos to android users using imessage.
>
> Two reasons: if MMS is available, it is expensive. And in several
> countries or providers, MMS has been removed.

Sensible logic...

a. Free or not-free MMS is a carrier problem, and not Android, per se.

b. Android has a half-dozen modern free RCS-enabled apps to send MMS free.

c. It's iOS' problem that it is too primitive to _receive_ modern RCS.

Only iOS has the problem. As always. iOS is primitive. A closed system.

[Wally J]

Bernd Froehlich <be...@eaglesoft.de> wrote

>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
>> WhatsApp.
>
> Sorry, you are missing something:
>
> Telegram, Signal, Threema for instance.
>
> No WhatsApp over here and still happily communicating (and exchanging
> pictures) with lots of Androids :-)

Bernd,

I'm trying to understand the problem (as I don't have it in the states).

*The main problem appears to be a carrier-imposed fee on 'sending MMS'*
*The other problem appears to be iOS uses a primitive messaging system.*
(Substituted "closed" if you have a visceral dislike to "primitive".)

One part of the problem appears to be...
1. Android users who are charged those fees can send MMS via RCS for free.
2. But iOS users can't receive them (it appears).
3. So in that respect, the problem is on the iOS recipient's side.

Another part of the problem appears to be...
A. Android users who are charged those fees can send MMS via RCS for free.
B. But Android users can't receive them unless they use an RCS messenger.
C. So in that respect, the problem is on the Android recipient's side.

Meanwhile... the third part of the problem appears to be...
a. iOS users can send "things" (e.g., pictures) via their Internet app
b. Which is no different than Telegram, Signal, Threema or WhatsApp
c. The only difference being all iPhones have that proprietary messaging

Is this an accurate summary of the problem set yet?

[Dave Royal]

On 11 Dec 2023 10:38:27 -0400 Wally J wrote:

>I'm trying to understand the problem (as I don't have it in the states).
>
> *The main problem appears to be a carrier-imposed fee on 'sending MMS'*
> *The other problem appears to be iOS uses a primitive messaging system.*
> (Substituted "closed" if you have a visceral dislike to "primitive".)
>
>One part of the problem appears to be...
>1. Android users who are charged those fees can send MMS via RCS for free.
>2. But iOS users can't receive them (it appears).
>3. So in that respect, the problem is on the iOS recipient's side.
>
>Another part of the problem appears to be...
>A. Android users who are charged those fees can send MMS via RCS for free.
>B. But Android users can't receive them unless they use an RCS messenger.
>C. So in that respect, the problem is on the Android recipient's side.
>
>Meanwhile... the third part of the problem appears to be...
>a. iOS users can send "things" (e.g., pictures) via their Internet app
>b. Which is no different than Telegram, Signal, Threema or WhatsApp
>c. The only difference being all iPhones have that proprietary messaging
>
>Is this an accurate summary of the problem set yet?
>

The 'problem', which is shared by (some) users of both Android and iOS, is
...

"A user of a modern smartphone cannot be confident of sending a
feature-rich message (having features equivalent to the GSMA's RCS
Universal Profile) irrespective of both sender's and recipient's make of
phone, both sender and receiver using their phone's _default_ messaging
facility."

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services>
Note that RCS does not currently include End to End Encryption (e2ee).

At the moment only SMS messages can be confidently sent and reliably
received.

MMS has been discontinued in many territories:
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service#Decline_and_discontinuation

It is rumoured that Apple will enable RCS in their default message app in
2024 (not replacing iMessage) which is to be welcomed IMO. No doubt people
will continue to use proprietary apps and protocols when they want extra
features - eg e2ee.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

[Jolly Roger]

People in those countries don't use iMessage in the first place.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-11, Carlos E. R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-12-11 09:19, Bernd Froehlich wrote:
>> On 10. Dec 2023 at 13:22:31 CET, ""Carlos E. R."" <robin_...@es.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, they do, when they want to communicate with Android users and can
>>> not send photos or multimedia, unless they ditch iMessages and switch to
>>> WhatsApp.
>>
>> Sorry, you are missing something:
>>
>> Telegram, Signal, Threema for instance.
>
> Certainly, but we are talking of their native messaging tool that they
> are so happy about, imessages.
>
> As I said, two reasons: in Europe, and probably most of the world except
> NA, MMS which is used to send photos to non Apple users is expensive or
> has been removed, it is not even available.

Which is no big deal since they are already using alternative messaging
apps.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-11 17:08, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2023 10:38:27 -0400 Wally J wrote:

...

>
> The 'problem', which is shared by (some) users of both Android and iOS, is
> ...
>
> "A user of a modern smartphone cannot be confident of sending a
> feature-rich message (having features equivalent to the GSMA's RCS
> Universal Profile) irrespective of both sender's and recipient's make of
> phone, both sender and receiver using their phone's _default_ messaging
> facility."
>
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services>
> Note that RCS does not currently include End to End Encryption (e2ee).

It does if you use the Google Messages App.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-12-11 11:08, Dave Royal wrote:

> "A user of a modern smartphone cannot be confident of sending a
> feature-rich message (having features equivalent to the GSMA's RCS
> Universal Profile) irrespective of both sender's and recipient's make of
> phone, both sender and receiver using their phone's _default_ messaging
> facility."

Which is a sad argument. There are other means to move large files if
one avenue doesn't work. E-mail, text a link to a repository (Dropbox),
e-mail a link to ... etc.

> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services>
> Note that RCS does not currently include End to End Encryption (e2ee).
>
> At the moment only SMS messages can be confidently sent and reliably
> received.
>
> MMS has been discontinued in many territories:
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service#Decline_and_discontinuation

6 countries. Oooooooohhhh the horror.

> It is rumoured that Apple will enable RCS in their default message app in

No rumour. Apple have said they will.

> 2024 (not replacing iMessage) which is to be welcomed IMO. No doubt people
> will continue to use proprietary apps and protocols when they want extra
> features - eg e2ee.

It does E2E already in some instances. But Apple is seeking a
non-3rd-party solution to E2E in RCS.

https://www.techradar.com/phones/iphone/breaking-apple-will-support-rcs-in-2024

[Dave Royal]

GSMA's RCS Universal Profile does not.

[Larry Wolff]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 13:29:51 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

>> "A user of a modern smartphone cannot be confident of sending a
>> feature-rich message (having features equivalent to the GSMA's RCS
>> Universal Profile) irrespective of both sender's and recipient's make of
>> phone, both sender and receiver using their phone's _default_ messaging
>> facility."
>
> Which is a sad argument. There are other means to move large files if
> one avenue doesn't work. E-mail, text a link to a repository (Dropbox),
> e-mail a link to ... etc.

Nobody said anything about "large files" - as most MMS is group messages &
individual photos and short videos (which are the larger of those files).

>
>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services>
>> Note that RCS does not currently include End to End Encryption (e2ee).
>>
>> At the moment only SMS messages can be confidently sent and reliably
>> received.
>>
>> MMS has been discontinued in many territories:
>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service#Decline_and_discontinuation
>
> 6 countries. Oooooooohhhh the horror.

Countries that have discontinued MMS include:
India (BSNL; from 1 November 2015),
Philippines (SunCel, SmartCommunications, TNT; from 28 September 2018),
Singapore (Singtel, M1, Starhub; from 16 November 2021),
Kazakhstan (Kcell; from 6 May 2022),
Switzerland (Swisscom, Salt Mobile; from 10 January 2023),
Germany (Vodafone; from 17 January 2023).

>> It is rumoured that Apple will enable RCS in their default message app in
>
> No rumour. Apple have said they will.

Apple will include RCS late in 2024 which is probably a September release.

>> 2024 (not replacing iMessage) which is to be welcomed IMO. No doubt people
>> will continue to use proprietary apps and protocols when they want extra
>> features - eg e2ee.
>
> It does E2E already in some instances. But Apple is seeking a
> non-3rd-party solution to E2E in RCS.
> https://www.techradar.com/phones/iphone/breaking-apple-will-support-rcs-in-2024

Isn't all the Apple e2e nullified when people back up to the icloud because
apple stores all your encryption keys in the clear when you use the icloud?

> Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.

You should fix the "your" as you copied it but didn't read it first.

[Bradley]

On 12/11/2023 2:17 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:
> Countries that have discontinued MMS include:
> India (BSNL; from 1 November 2015),
> Philippines (SunCel, SmartCommunications, TNT; from 28 September 2018),
> Singapore (Singtel, M1, Starhub; from 16 November 2021),
> Kazakhstan (Kcell; from 6 May 2022),
> Switzerland (Swisscom, Salt Mobile; from 10 January 2023),
> Germany (Vodafone; from 17 January 2023).

The only country that might matter in that short list is Germany.
Anyone know if Germany supports RCS now that it's the world standard?

[Carlos E. R.]

Is anybody providing that in the real world?

Samsung switched to the Google version.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-12-11 20:35, Bradley wrote:
> On 12/11/2023 2:17 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:
>> Countries that have discontinued MMS include: India (BSNL; from 1
>> November 2015), Philippines (SunCel, SmartCommunications, TNT; from 28
>> September 2018), Singapore (Singtel, M1, Starhub; from 16 November 2021),
>> Kazakhstan (Kcell; from 6 May 2022),
>> Switzerland (Swisscom, Salt Mobile; from 10 January 2023), Germany
>> (Vodafone; from 17 January 2023).
>
> The only country that might matter in that short list is Germany.

And Switzerland, but they love to drop "ancient" things, like TV over
the air.

> Anyone know if Germany supports RCS now that it's the world standard?

AFAIK, yes, of course.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

I'd guess Apple is seeking a Non-Google solution to E2E in RCS. They are
too late for that. :-D

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Dave Royal]

The GSMA RCS UP* is a set of standards for a set of features. Google's RCS
implementation is not an /alternative/ to the UP, it is (IIUC) in
compliance with the UP and provides features on top, such as e2ee.

*I keep giving it that long name because 'RCS' could refer to that set of
standards, Google's implementation based on those, or somebody else's
service called RCS.

[Jörg Lorenz]

On 12.12.23 09:27, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2023 23:51:39 +0100 Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Samsung switched to the Google version.
>
> The GSMA RCS UP* is a set of standards for a set of features. Google's RCS
> implementation is not an /alternative/ to the UP, it is (IIUC) in
> compliance with the UP and provides features on top, such as e2ee.

Right. And this encryption is proprietary and is not accepted by Apple.
Meaning that RCS will be introduced but kept outside iMsg.

> *I keep giving it that long name because 'RCS' could refer to that set of
> standards, Google's implementation based on those, or somebody else's
> service called RCS.

Google-RCS will fail inevitably: It has no unique selling proposition
compared to other messengers which exist already for roughly a decade.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

[Jörg Lorenz]

On 10.12.23 13:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> It is relevant for me, who don't live in the USA.

We are discussing markets not you.

>>> But even those on Android in the US have no problem communicating with
>>> iPhone users; it's always mainly the iPhone users who complain about it.
>>

>> Even more bullshit. Apple devices have their own software and systems.
>> Android not. That is the reason why Google tries to spread such an
>> inferior chat tool like RCS. The American market is the driving force
>> idiot. And stop try to spread FUD and lies.
>
> Bullshit. :-P

*LOL*. Are you still using Hangouts, Dear?

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

> but the fact
> is many people use Apple devices without the *completely* *optional*
> iCloud service for years without issue.

Hi Jolly Roger,

While Snit & Alan Baker & Joerg are plonked, I read everything you write.
And it's clear you have absolutely no idea of how Apple does things, JR.

What you do not understand, Jolly Roger, is there are _multiple_ times you
must log into an Apple device, as witnessed by the very images I provided.

For example, there's an iCloud login and there's an iMessage login, JR.
<https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> iCloud login
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> iMessage login

And there's plenty more, Jolly Roger, none of which are you aware of.
<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> Plenty of other Apple logins

> I have an iPhone SE (1st gen)
> semi-permanently mounted to the windshield of my car that hasn't been
> logged into iCloud for years, and it functions as a dedicated dash cam
> without issue.

What's no longer shocking about you uneducated ignorant iKooks, Jolly
Roger, is you can't figure out that the iCloud login is _not_ the problem.

I too could download all the software I wanted to get from the App Store,
for example, which worked even when Apple bricked the rest of my devices.
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR5mZ287/appleid07.jpg> Apple fails App Store test
Note: You can install apps - you just can't delete & then re-install them.

What you don't understand is the sheer number of logins Apple requires,
and, more importantly, if you don't log into them frequently, then what you
consider wonders of the walled garden immediately stop (e.g., FaceTime).

> He's a pathetic loser.

It's no longer shocking that you iKooks are incapable of responding to the
fact that you _hate_ about Apple products so you attack the bearer of fact.

So be it.

Fact is, you've never once found any fact from me to ever be wrong, even as
you _hate_ almost every fact that I prove to you about Apple products, JR.
--
The problem with iKooks isn't so much how incredibly ignorant they are, but
they refuse to believe any facts about Apple which they themselves hate.

[Alan]

On 2023-12-12 14:38, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>> but the fact
>> is many people use Apple devices without the *completely* *optional*
>> iCloud service for years without issue.
>
> Hi Jolly Roger,
>
> While Snit & Alan Baker & Joerg are plonked, I read everything you write.
> And it's clear you have absolutely no idea of how Apple does things, JR.
>
> What you do not understand, Jolly Roger, is there are _multiple_ times you
> must log into an Apple device, as witnessed by the very images I provided.
>
> For example, there's an iCloud login and there's an iMessage login, JR.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> iCloud login
> <https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> iMessage login

And nothing requires you to use either one.

>
> And there's plenty more, Jolly Roger, none of which are you aware of.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> Plenty of other Apple logins

And you aren't required to use them.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-12, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>> but the fact is many people use Apple devices without the
>> *completely* *optional* iCloud service for years without issue.
>

> And it's clear you have absolutely no idea of how Apple does things,
> JR.

Projection. It is *you* who has absolutely no idea how Apple devices
work.

> What you do not understand, Jolly Roger, is there are _multiple_ times
> you must log into an Apple device, as witnessed by the very images I
> provided.

Nope. My iPhone SE hasn't asked or required a login for *years* and
continues to work just fine. You don't know what you are talking about.
You think iCloud is mandatory when it's not. You think Apple requires
you to log in, when they do not. You are a useless, know-nothing troll.

> For example, there's an iCloud login and there's an iMessage login,
> JR.

You caused that by logging into iCloud and iMessage, Arlen. And the fact
that you think the rest of us don't know that is pathetic. Your trolls
are as weak as your interpersonal skills.

> And there's plenty more, Jolly Roger, none of which are you aware of.

More projection from the Apple-hating loser troll. You logged into that
account and now like a complete moron you are complaining that your
logged-in account is asking for your credentials. How fucking dumb are
you? Pretty fucking dumb it appears.

>> I have an iPhone SE (1st gen) semi-permanently mounted to the
>> windshield of my car that hasn't been logged into iCloud for years,
>> and it functions as a dedicated dash cam without issue.
>

> uneducated
> ignorant
> iKooks

Poor, little triggered Arlen...

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

>> And it's clear you have absolutely no idea of how Apple does things,
>> JR.
>
> Projection. It is *you* who has absolutely no idea how Apple devices
> work.

Hi Jolly Roger,

The unsurprising thing is you iKooks have no clue whatsoever that there's a
login into the iMessage server and _another_ login into the iCloud server.

<https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> iCloud login
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> iMessage login

And plenty more.

<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> Plenty of other Apple logins

It's no longer shocking you iKooka have no idea how Apple products work.

>> What you do not understand, Jolly Roger, is there are _multiple_ times
>> you must log into an Apple device, as witnessed by the very images I
>> provided.
>
> Nope. My iPhone SE hasn't asked or required a login for *years* and
> continues to work just fine. You don't know what you are talking about.

Ah, but I do. I know full well what happens if you don't log into Apple
servers when they ask you to "Update Apple ID settings" as shown here.
<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> 1 Update Apple ID settings

> You think iCloud is mandatory when it's not. You think Apple requires
> you to log in, when they do not. You are a useless, know-nothing troll.

I understand you better than you know yourself, Jolly Roger, so I forgive
you for lashing out at me simply for telling you the truth about Apple.

>> For example, there's an iCloud login and there's an iMessage login,
>> JR.
>
> You caused that by logging into iCloud and iMessage, Arlen. And the fact
> that you think the rest of us don't know that is pathetic. Your trolls
> are as weak as your interpersonal skills.

No. You're wrong Jolly Roger. That was caused by Apple who forces you to
identify yourself with a government ID if you ever stop logging into it.
<https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple

>> And there's plenty more, Jolly Roger, none of which are you aware of.
>
> More projection from the Apple-hating loser troll. You logged into that
> account and now like a complete moron you are complaining that your
> logged-in account is asking for your credentials. How fucking dumb are
> you? Pretty fucking dumb it appears.

Again, I forgive you for hating all facts about Apple products, Jolly
Roger. But you hating what Apple does doesn't change what Apple does.

It's clear you have absolutely no idea that you're continually logging into
Apple servers - because if you didn't - Apple will brick your device.
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg> Apple _disables_ the device!

What you hate is that almost nothing works on Apple products if you simply
choose to NOT log into Apple's mothership tracking servers every single
moment of the rest of your life, Jolly Roger.

Which is why I feel sorry for you iKooks after all.

You're so _happy_ being oblivious to everything about Apple products
that you hate me (and Apple) when I prove to you what Apple does.

[Alan]

You're such an amazing simpleton...

...or bald-face liar...

...or mostly likely of all...

...both!

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-13, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> And it's clear you have absolutely no idea of how Apple does things,
>>> JR.
>>
>> Projection. It is *you* who has absolutely no idea how Apple devices
>> work.
>

> you iKooks have no clue whatsoever

More projection. BTW, repeating yourself isn't winning you any points,
dumb ass.

> there's a login into the iMessage server and _another_ login into the
> iCloud server.

Yes, bozo. That's what happens when you log into a server - it asks for
your credentials. You really are *this* fucking stupid, huh?

> It's no longer shocking you iKooka have no idea how Apple products
> work.

More projection. You exude weak-mindedness.

>> Nope. My iPhone SE hasn't asked or required a login for *years* and
>> continues to work just fine. You don't know what you are talking
>> about.
>
> Ah, but I do. I know full well what happens if you don't log into
> Apple servers when they ask you to "Update Apple ID settings" as shown
> here.

No, you clearly don't know that if you hadn't logged into it in the
first place, it would never ask for your credentials. You are truly an
idiot. You log into servers and then complain when they ask for your
credentials, like a complete moron. Are you a boomer? Because you sire
think like one. 🤣

>> You think iCloud is mandatory when it's not. You think Apple requires
>> you to log in, when they do not. You are a useless, know-nothing
>> troll.
>
> I understand you better than you know yourself

In your fevered dreams.

> I forgive you for lashing out at me

I don't forgive you, Arlen. And I hope you die soon. On that day, we'll
celebrate with a drink here, because the world will instantly become a
bit brighter due to your absence. Count on that. 🙂

>> You caused that by logging into iCloud and iMessage, Arlen. And the
>> fact that you think the rest of us don't know that is pathetic. Your
>> trolls are as weak as your interpersonal skills.
>
> No. You're wrong Jolly Roger.

Nope, I'm right. And I have a years-old 1st generation iPhone SE right
here that is living proof. I haven't been asked to log into *any* Apple
servers for literal *years*. You *desperately* want to pretend this
isn't the case, but it is. And nothing you can ever say will change this
reality.

> Apple who forces you to identify yourself with a government ID if you
> ever stop logging into it.

Nope. You already admitted you never logged out and then forgot your
credentials, like the complete idiot you are.

> It's clear you have absolutely no idea that you're continually logging
> into Apple servers

It's clear you *desperately* want to pretend my iPhone SE hasn't been
logged into an Apple server in many years and works just fine. You also
comically don't remember you already admitted staying logged into Apple
servers then forgetting your own username and password, before turning
around and claiming Apple fucked you like the complete jackass you are.
And you apparently think the rest of us don't remember that too.
Dementia is setting in, eh?

> almost nothing works on Apple products if you simply choose to NOT log
> into Apple's mothership tracking servers every single moment of the
> rest of your life

Objectively and laughably false. 🤣

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

>> you iKooks have no clue whatsoever
>
> More projection. BTW, repeating yourself isn't winning you any points,
> dumb ass.

You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant that
Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers, and if you do not
frequently log into those mothership servers, Apple will brick the device.

You _hate_ every truth about Apple products, Jolly Roger, so you blame me.
So be it.

>
>> there's a login into the iMessage server and _another_ login into the
>> iCloud server.
>
> Yes, bozo. That's what happens when you log into a server - it asks for
> your credentials. You really are *this* fucking stupid, huh?

Again, you _hate_ every truth about Apple, which you can't dispute.
So you take out your _hatred for Apple_ on the bearer of those truths.

So be it.

>> It's no longer shocking you iKooka have no idea how Apple products
>> work.
>
> More projection. You exude weak-mindedness.

Heh heh heh. You _hate_ all truths about Apple. I tell those truths.
So you hate me.

So be it.

>>> Nope. My iPhone SE hasn't asked or required a login for *years* and
>>> continues to work just fine. You don't know what you are talking
>>> about.
>>
>> Ah, but I do. I know full well what happens if you don't log into
>> Apple servers when they ask you to "Update Apple ID settings" as shown
>> here.
>
> No, you clearly don't know that if you hadn't logged into it in the
> first place, it would never ask for your credentials.

For the first time in oh, I don't know, a dozen posts, you've said
something that is actually correct about Apple products, Jolly Roger.

I never said otherwise, Jolly Roger.

> You are truly an
> idiot. You log into servers and then complain when they ask for your
> credentials, like a complete moron. Are you a boomer? Because you sire
> think like one.

What's interesting is that you _hate_ the truth about Apple so much that
you build this senseless strawman so that you can attack it instead of
accepting the truth about Apple products, Jolly Roger.

You _hate_ that Apple forces you to log in repeatedly for the rest of your
life, don't you? And yet you have no defense to that truth that you hate.

So you hate me simply for teaching you how your Apple product works.
So be it.

>>> You think iCloud is mandatory when it's not. You think Apple requires
>>> you to log in, when they do not. You are a useless, know-nothing
>>> troll.
>>
>> I understand you better than you know yourself
>
> In your fevered dreams.

I love when you post, Jolly Roger.
Because you're the epitome of the average Apple user.

From you, I learn how Apple easily brainwashes that average Apple user.
Thank you.

>> I forgive you for lashing out at me
>

> And I hope you die soon. On that day, we'll
> celebrate with a drink here, because the world will instantly become a
> bit brighter due to your absence. Count on that.

It's a good thing you didn't say it like nospam and Rod Speed did, JR.
So I won't take that as a direct threat worthy of reporting to the FBI.

However...

It does show how deathly afraid you are of me, Jolly Roger.
Simply for telling the truth about Apple products.

The fact you're so deathly afraid of the truth tells me a lot about you.

>
>>> You caused that by logging into iCloud and iMessage. And the

>>> fact that you think the rest of us don't know that is pathetic. Your
>>> trolls are as weak as your interpersonal skills.
>>
>> No. You're wrong Jolly Roger.
>
> Nope, I'm right. And I have a years-old 1st generation iPhone SE right
> here that is living proof. I haven't been asked to log into *any* Apple
> servers for literal *years*. You *desperately* want to pretend this
> isn't the case, but it is. And nothing you can ever say will change this
> reality.

Yes you have, Jolly Roger. You just skip past it and do exactly what they
tell you to do, Jolly Roger. You can't say you've never seen this, can you?
<https://i.postimg.cc/9fPjQpr3/nag01.jpg> 3 iOS nag items

>> Apple who forces you to identify yourself with a government ID if you
>> ever stop logging into it.
>
> Nope. You already admitted you never logged out and then forgot your
> credentials, like the complete idiot you are.

Heh heh heh... again you build a strawman because you can't recognize from
the screenshots that I logged into my own account without any problem once
they _unlocked_ it (I never needed to change the login or password, JR).

<https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple

What you _hate_ Jolly Roger, is that simple fact about Apple products.

Everything you love about Apple, for example, Jolly Roger, is purely due to
one thing & one thing only - which is everything is done on their servers.

You _hate_ that fact.

>> It's clear you have absolutely no idea that you're continually logging
>> into Apple servers
>
> It's clear you *desperately* want to pretend my iPhone SE hasn't been
> logged into an Apple server in many years and works just fine.

Ah, but you have Jolly Roger. You have. You just never explicitly tested
NOT logging into Apple servers every day for the rest of your life.

So you never saw this:
<https://i.postimg.cc/vTdfLY2f/locked-03.jpg> Apple wants a gov license!

> You also
> comically don't remember you already admitted staying logged into Apple
> servers then forgetting your own username and password, before turning
> around and claiming Apple fucked you like the complete jackass you are.
> And you apparently think the rest of us don't remember that too.
> Dementia is setting in, eh?

I know the AppleID login and password to _all_ my iPads, Jolly Roger.
Apple locked the account because I didn't log into them frequently enough.

Haven't you ever seen this message from Apple, Jolly Roger?
<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg>

>> almost nothing works on Apple products if you simply choose to NOT log
>> into Apple's mothership tracking servers every single moment of the
>> rest of your life
>
> Objectively and laughably false.

I love you Jolly Roger - so I'd ask you to run a simple experiment please.

Try NOT logging into your wondrous Apple servers, Jolly Roger.
And _then_ tell me that the statement is "false"....

But I do appreciate that you show how much you hate facts about Apple
products... so much that you wish me dead... simply for telling the facts.

Interesting how much you, nospam and Rod Speed all hate facts about Apple.
--
HINT: Almost nothing works unless you log into Apple's mothership servers.

[Alan]

On 2023-12-12 21:45, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> you iKooks have no clue whatsoever
>>
>> More projection. BTW, repeating yourself isn't winning you any points,
>> dumb ass.
>
> You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant that
> Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers, and if you do not
> frequently log into those mothership servers, Apple will brick the device.

This is false.

[Jörg Lorenz]

On 10.12.23 14:26, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-10 04:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.
>
> You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe. MMS is still very
> relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat with
> images and video and not using a 3rd party app.

*ROTFLSTC*
The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
what they are in Europe or Asia.

[Alan Browne]

Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe? Have to make up for
the cheap plans?

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

[Wally J]

Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote

>> The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
>> what they are in Europe or Asia.
>
> Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe? Have to make up for
> the cheap plans?

I don't see anything from Joerg but I do see Alan Brown's posts where I pay
about $25 a month per line for unlimited everything in the USA on T-Mobile.
<https://i.postimg.cc/L6dFGXVd/tmopromo03.jpg> $100 for 6 lines + $16 fees
Note: Two of those lines are free for life, but Apple bricked one iPad.

How much does unlimited everything typically cost in Europe & in the UK?

[Dave Royal]

On 13 Dec 2023 08:58:11 -0500 Alan Browne wrote:
>On 2023-12-13 07:16, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 10.12.23 14:26, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-10 04:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.
>>>
>>> You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe. MMS is still very
>>> relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat with
>>> images and video and not using a 3rd party app.
>>
>> *ROTFLSTC*
>> The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
>> what they are in Europe or Asia.
>
>Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe? Have to make up for
>the cheap plans?

Here in the UK there is keen competition on price, wide network coverage,
and it's easy to swap mobile supplier and port your phone number. The
standard competitive offering these days is a SIM-only rolling monthly
contract with unlimited voice calls and SMSs and varying amounts of data:
typicaly £10/month upwards but can be half that for small amounts of
data. To my knowledge MMSs are always extra - a quick google suggests
£0.5 per MMS is typical. Few people use them so there's no incentive to
include them and every incentive to charge a lot for them.

I think the unpopularity of MMSs is historical, predating smartphones and
the rise of mobile data. Kids sent huge numbers of SMSs, and we adults
used them quite a lot, so operators offered ever higher numbers of them
'free'. MMS never caught on - probably because the experience on a tiny
display was so poor. With smartphones the number of SMSs has declined
drastically, so they're free.

Soon after smartphones appeared, there was WhatsApp! Everybody - apart
from all-iPhone families - had WA and knew that, for sharing photos and
videos, that's what you used. (This was back in the days of Android 4.)

I can't speak knowledgeably about 'Europe' as a whole but for countries
I've had SIMs for, it seemed the same.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-13, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> you iKooks have no clue whatsoever
>>
>> More projection. BTW, repeating yourself isn't winning you any
>> points, dumb ass.
>
> You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant
> that Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers

No, you're a dumb ass for signing into servers and then complaining when
the servers ask you to verify your credentials. If you don't sign in,
you don't get asked for your credentials, idiot. You have to be a boomer.
There's no other explanation. Also, stop bitching and moaning about
insults when every single post you make here for the past decade calls
Apple users "iKooks" and worse, you fucking crybaby. 🤣

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

>> You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant
>> that Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers
>
> No, you're a dumb ass for signing into servers and then complaining when
> the servers ask you to verify your credentials.

Hi Jolly Roger,

I've tested it. You haven't.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg> Apple _locks_ you out!

In fact, I've tested it, on purpose, for years.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity

You haven't tested it for one second.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional

So I respectfully say you don't know what you're talking about, JR.
I do.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!

Meanwhile, I tested it also on Android, and guess what! No ID needed.
<https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account

I think you don't understand _why_ I tested Apple's words against Apple's
actions, just as I test Google's words against their actual actions, JR.

While Apple brags (rightly so) about how "great" their "integration" is,
what Apple doesn't brag about is that nothing works unless you're
constantly logging into Apple's many mothership tracking servers.

That's just a fact, Jolly Roger.

No other common consumer operating system requires such a tremendous level
of constantly logging into their mothership tracking servers (although
Windows 11 is "starting" to get as bad as Apple is on lack of privacy).

> If you don't sign in,
> you don't get asked for your credentials, idiot.

Jolly Roger,
Stop trying to insult my intelligence because it's you who couldn't pass
your GED exam (you said you tried three times and failed); so just stop it.

I know your IQ better than you do, Jolly Roger.
I know you're _desperate_ for me to just go away.
I know your child-like brain thinks calling me an "idiot" will do that.

The fact that you don't understand how Apple products work doesn't make me
an idiot - when - in fact - nothing works in the walled garden if you stop
logging into it (day after day, month after month, year after year), JR.

> You have to be a boomer.
> There's no other explanation. Also, stop bitching and moaning about
> insults when every single post you make here for the past decade calls
> Apple users "iKooks" and worse, you fucking crybaby.

Jolly Roger,

Don't worry about insulting me - as it's not possible - just as Alan Baker
tries to tell me I'm stupid when he claims to drive bimmers and teach
racing yet he doesn't have any idea what the vehicles are called in racing
circuits (which, let's be clear - only a moron wouldn't know).

Its the same with Alan Browne who hates me for telling him the truth about
Apple - so much that he calls me an "it" (as if that hurts my feelings).

These morons have no idea that the very fact that all they have are
kindergarten insults - says so much about them instead of about me.

I simply tell each of you the truth about yourselves, Jolly Roger.
Because I study you rather strange iKooks.

In decades at startups in the Silicon Valley I never met people like you
iKooks who hate all facts so much that you call every person who tells you
a fact that you don't want to hear - some childish kindergarten taunt.

It's the same with you Jolly Roger. You can't possibly insult me.
Yet you try.

You want me dead.
Simply because I told you the truth about Apple products, Jolly Roger.

You don't even know the difference between a megabit and a decibel, JR.
You proved that many times - and if you deny it - I'll provide cites.

Snit tried to pull that game with me years ago, Jolly Roger.
<https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo> iKooks can't even see the fatal flaw!

None of you iKooks can tell the difference between a decibel and a megabit,
so of course Apple marketing plays you like a fiddle, Jolly Roger.

I understand you because I study you, Jolly Roger.

You don't hate Apple for playing you like a fiddle, Jolly Roger.
You hate me for telling you the truth about Apple products, Jolly Roger.

So be it.
--
The last think the iKooks want to know is any fact or truth about Apple.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-12-13 10:26, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2023 08:58:11 -0500 Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-12-13 07:16, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 10.12.23 14:26, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-10 04:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.
>>>>
>>>> You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe. MMS is still very
>>>> relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat with
>>>> images and video and not using a 3rd party app.
>>>
>>> *ROTFLSTC*
>>> The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
>>> what they are in Europe or Asia.
>>
>> Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe? Have to make up for
>> the cheap plans?
>
> Here in the UK there is keen competition on price, wide network coverage,
> and it's easy to swap mobile supplier and port your phone number. The
> standard competitive offering these days is a SIM-only rolling monthly
> contract with unlimited voice calls and SMSs and varying amounts of data:
> typicaly £10/month upwards but can be half that for small amounts of

Amazing. Here (Canada) an unlimited contract with a paltry 3 - 5 GB of
data is on the order of $40+tax/month. This would be a bring-your-own
phone annual deal. Actually I'm contract free at the moment. So they
bill me monthly. I can walk at any moment and take my number with me.
They're always "upselling" (more data for a small increase in fee).

> data. To my knowledge MMSs are always extra - a quick google suggests
> £0.5 per MMS is typical. Few people use them so there's no incentive to
> include them and every incentive to charge a lot for them.

No extra charge here for larger files (videos, etc.).

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-13, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant
>>> that Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers
>>
>> No, you're a dumb ass for signing into servers and then complaining
>> when the servers ask you to verify your credentials.
>
> Hi Jolly Roger,
>
> I've tested it. You haven't.

My iPhone SE that has been functioning perfectly without being signed
into Apple's servers is living proof I *have* tested it. Your crippled
device is proof that you:
1. signed into Apple servers
2. forgot your credentials
3. got locked out of Apple services as a result of your stupidity
4. turned around and blamed Apple like the dip shit boomer you are
5. lied about it in order to troll the Apple newsgroups

> In fact, I've tested it, on purpose, for years.

Translation: "I've sabotaged myself in order to troll for years."

> You haven't tested it for one second.

My iPhone SE has been running fine for *years* without being logged into
Apple servers. 🙂

> So I respectfully say you don't know what you're talking about, JR.

Projection, as usual.

> While Apple brags (rightly so) about how "great" their "integration"
> is, what Apple doesn't brag about is that nothing works unless you're
> constantly logging into Apple's many mothership tracking servers.

Repeating this lie doesn't magically make it become true, Arlen. You
signed into Apple servers and like a moron you are complaining that
Apple servers asked for your credentials. You're a clown. 🤡

>> If you don't sign in, you don't get asked for your credentials,
>> idiot.
>
> Jolly Roger, Stop trying to insult my intelligence because it's you
> who couldn't pass your GED exam (you said you tried three times and
> failed); so just stop it.

The record shows that unlike you, I have never discussed or bragged
about my education on Usenet or anywhere else on the net, Arlen. And to
prove it, you can't reference any post of mine on Usenet that does so.
Because it doesn't exist. Your schoolyard insults are juvenile and weak,
like your character. Your brazen and outlandish lies are frankly
pathetic.

> I know your IQ better than you do, Jolly Roger.

The pathetic troll thinks IQ pissing contests are a measure of worth.

> I know you're _desperate_ for me to just go away.

Says the loser who is literally trolling a newsgroup for a product he
clearly hates, hour after hour, day after day. If anyone is desperate,
it's you. 🤣

> These morons have no idea that the very fact that all they have are
> kindergarten insults - says so much about them instead of about me.

Says the loser troll who regularly calls everyone in the Apple news
groups "iKooks":

> Because I study you rather strange iKooks.

> You don't even know the difference between a megabit and a decibel,
> JR. You proved that many times - and if you deny it - I'll provide
> cites.

You can't provide cites of me supposedly not being able to differentiate
between those two words, because it doesn't exist. Just like you can't
provide cites of me talking about my education. You, on the other hand
*regularly* boast about your education, posting pictures of old books
and calling everyone you hate "low IQ". You can't help but project your
weaknesses onto others, like all pathetic losers do.

[Alan]

On 2023-12-13 09:15, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> You call me a "dumb ass" merely because I showed you were ignorant
>>> that Apple requires _multiple_ logins into multiple servers
>>
>> No, you're a dumb ass for signing into servers and then complaining when
>> the servers ask you to verify your credentials.
>
> Hi Jolly Roger,
>
> I've tested it. You haven't.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg> Apple _locks_ you out!

What that doesn't show is the REASON for locking it out...

>
> In fact, I've tested it, on purpose, for years.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity

If you've created an AppleID...

>
> You haven't tested it for one second.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional

The very nature if a messaging app REQUIRES an ID.

>
> So I respectfully say you don't know what you're talking about, JR.
> I do.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!

"Some account SERVICES..."

>
> Meanwhile, I tested it also on Android, and guess what! No ID needed.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account

"404 Not found"

So no proof of your essential claim.

[Jörg Lorenz]

Am 13.12.23 um 14:58 schrieb Alan Browne:

> On 2023-12-13 07:16, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 10.12.23 14:26, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-10 04:38, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> In advanced markets MMS does not exist anymore.
>>>
>>> You mean in overpriced telecoms markets like Europe. MMS is still very
>>> relevant when out of WiFi range and using the cellco for basic chat with
>>> images and video and not using a 3rd party app.
>>
>> *ROTFLSTC*
>> The price level in underdeveloped markets like the US are almost double
>> what they are in Europe or Asia.
>
> Then why do they charge so much for MMS in Europe? Have to make up for
> the cheap plans?

There are no MMS anymore in Europe. At least in the majority of the
markets. The quality and reliability of MMS is so inferior, that nobody
used them anymore for years. Hence most providers stopped the serivce.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

[Jörg Lorenz]

Am 13.12.23 um 20:17 schrieb Alan Browne:

> Amazing. Here (Canada) an unlimited contract with a paltry 3 - 5 GB of
> data is on the order of $40+tax/month. This would be a bring-your-own
> phone annual deal.

My Wingo Business costs me $50/month everything flat golablly inculding
the US and Canada. Unlimited data roaming everywhere. To put that into
perspective: Switzerland is rather a high price country for
communication services.

[Carlos E.R.]

I just tested, and MMS is available in Movistar (Spain).

To test, I disabled RCS in phone #2. Then in phone #1 I tried to send a
message. It changed the display note to "SMS". I typed "Aa" then a big
smiley. Instantly, it said MMS. I did not hit send, it costs money.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Wally J]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

>> I've tested it. You haven't.
>
> My iPhone SE that has been functioning perfectly without being signed
> into Apple's servers is living proof I *have* tested it.

Hi Jolly Roger,

Unless you're jailbroken perhaps... that is an absurd claim, even from you.

If you actually _believe_ you've never "signed into Apple's servers", then
it's going to be difficult to carry on any *adult conversation* with you.

Because... you audaciously claim...
*You've never even once sent or received a message on your Messages app?*
*You've never even once sent or received a FaceTime conversation?*
*You've never even once installed an app from Apple's App Store?*
*You've never even once experienced a default backup to the iCloud?*
*You've never even once upgraded your version or updated your subversion?*
*You've never even once posted or received iCloud mail from your iPhone?*
*You never (optionally) signed up for 2-factor authorization perhaps?*
etc.

No *adult* would claim what you just claimed on an iOS device, Jolly Roger.
Certainly no *adult* would believe it given that's how iOS is designed.

This is, for example, my nag screen when I recently updated to iOS
<https://i.postimg.cc/9fPjQpr3/nag01.jpg> 3 iOS 16.7.3 nag items
<https://i.postimg.cc/wxwgN0Fg/nag02.jpg> 2 iOS1 6.7.3 nag items

<https://i.postimg.cc/3NVqB4dC/nag03.jpg> 1 Update Apple ID settings

> Your crippled device is proof that you:
> 1. signed into Apple servers
> 2. forgot your credentials
> 3. got locked out of Apple services as a result of your stupidity
> 4. turned around and blamed Apple like the dip shit boomer you are
> 5. lied about it in order to troll the Apple newsgroups

First off, I know the credentials, so that strawman is remiss.

Second, it's not crippled so much as unilaterally bricked by Apple simply
for not constantly and repeatedly signing into Apple servers, Jolly Roger.

Which I did on purpose.
On three iPads.

Just to test what Apple would do.

Here's what Apple did recently when I proved to them by giving away my
privacy - because Apple required my government ID & proof of purchase, just
so that Apple would _unlock_ my Apple ID (whose password never changed).

<https://i.postimg.cc/7P7NCctS/locked-01.jpg> AppleID is locked by Apple

<https://i.postimg.cc/4dHQQFfk/locked-02.jpg> Password was always good
<https://i.postimg.cc/vTdfLY2f/locked-03.jpg> Apple wants a gov license!!!
<https://i.postimg.cc/rpmJKw7p/locked-04.jpg> Then, iCloud works again
<https://i.postimg.cc/rwyGPpV9/locked-05.jpg> Then, Messages works again

In summary, you _hate_ the fact that Apple forces users to constantly log
into Apple servers when no other operating system (maybe now with Windows
11) forces the users to constantly and repetitively log into those
mothership tracking servers - or - Apple will unilaterally lock your
account (which essentially unilaterally bricks your Apple device given most
functionality is inside the walled garden).

*You _hate_ that fact about Apple*, Jolly Roger.

But you hating all facts about Apple doesn't make those facts not facts.
--
It just means you hate what Apple does.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-12-15, Wally J <walte...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>>> I've tested it. You haven't.
>>
>> My iPhone SE that has been functioning perfectly without being signed
>> into Apple's servers is living proof I *have* tested it.
>
> Hi Jolly Roger,
>
> Unless you're jailbroken

Nope, sorry. No jailbreak needed. Your ignorance is astounding. There is
no requirement to log into Apple servers on an iPhone. You willingly
signed in, "forgot" your own credentials, and bullheadedly refused to
fix the problem you caused, locking yourself out of your own device
(likely also willingly in order to roll your lame troll).

> If you actually _believe_ you've never "signed into Apple's servers"

The record shows I didn't make that idiotic claim. You have a real
problem with reading comprehension it seems. What I did say is true:
there is no requirement to log into Apple servers in order to use an
iPhone, and your "problem" was self-created by you logging into Apple
servers willingly, "forgetting" your credentials, and refusing to
rectify that self-imposed issue.

> it's going to be difficult to carry on any *adult conversation* with you.

You project like no other, Arlen.

>> Your crippled device is proof that you:
>> 1. signed into Apple servers
>> 2. forgot your credentials
>> 3. got locked out of Apple services as a result of your stupidity
>> 4. turned around and blamed Apple like the dip shit boomer you are
>> 5. lied about it in order to troll the Apple newsgroups
>
> First off, I know the credentials, so that strawman is remiss.

That's a lie. You are on record stating you used fake throw-away
credentials that you *couldn't* remember. And if you *did* know them,
you would have easily entered them.

> Second, it's not crippled so much as unilaterally bricked by Apple
> simply for not constantly and repeatedly signing into Apple servers

Nope, you locked yourself out by refusing to verify the credentials you
used to willingly sign in.

> Which I did on purpose.

Indeed, you fucked yourself on purpose in order to roll your lame troll.
You're a clown.

> On three iPads.

LOL... 🤣

> Just to test what Apple would do.

Just to troll.

[Wally J]

"Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

> I just tested, and MMS is available in Movistar (Spain).
>
> To test, I disabled RCS in phone #2. Then in phone #1 I tried to send a
> message. It changed the display note to "SMS". I typed "Aa" then a big
> smiley. Instantly, it said MMS. I did not hit send, it costs money.

Thanks for running that test for the team, Carlos, as everyone pitches in
to provide the tribal knowledge of these combined Usenet newsgroups.

Here in the states, most of us (not all though) have unlimited free MMS so
we don't need RCS to send MMS via the Internet data on the phone plan.

Hence, we don't see as much value to RCS as you do - where the iPhone users
seem to complain a lot about bubble color which is another thing most of us
don't care about (as on Android, all users look the same to us, AFAICT).

Hence, for those few who are affected by MMS charges, it's good that you
ran those tests as we can't run them given we don't have the same issues.
--
Usenet is a wonderful way to meet smart people on both sides of the Pond.