School district makes "intuitive" decision to switch to PC's
Jim Polaski
decision making process.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do while expecting that he will get nothing in return!"
Macintosh for productivity. Linux for servers. Palm/Visor for mobility. Windows to feed the Black Hole in your IT budget
zolo
Jim Polaski wrote:
> Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
> decision making process.
>
> http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>
Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
Dissent b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
Conformity g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d!
It's intuitive. A "no brainer."
You WILL be assimilated.
-zolo
Mayor of R'lyeh
to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>Jim Polaski wrote:
>> Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>> decision making process.
>>
>> http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>
>
>
>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
>
>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
>
>Dissent b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
Whining like a little girl because something didn't go your way
b-a-a-a-a-d!
>
>Conformity g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>
>It's intuitive. A "no brainer."
>
>You WILL be assimilated.
>
>
The most humorous aspect of this is that if they had decided to go
100% Mac they still wouldn't have had choice or dissent just
conformity but you would be praising them for making the 'intuitive,
no brainer' choice about being assimilated into the cult of Steve.
It couldn't be that you don't give a damn about the stuff you're
prattling on about and just want to push your agenda could it?
Nah! Not zolo! He'd never be that shallow! 8)
Mayor of R'lyeh
chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>decision making process.
>
>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
The biggest surprise is that the truth managed to make a cameo
appearance:
"The Center for Advanced Technologies, the magnet program at Lakewood
High School, has quite the streak. Five years running, a national
educational technology group ranked Lakewood's Fast Forward the
country's No. 1 high school news show.
In the mid 1990s, Lakewood was 100 percent Mac. Lou Zulli Jr., who
manages the center's computers, considered the Mac excellent by itself
but deficient at working in a network. He recommended switching to
PCs. The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs.
Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
friends don't let friends do Macs.
"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
supposed to be Apple's domain."
Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
"The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
software."
Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
as the non-Bill Gates.
"This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
"Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
tool." He gets off his soapbox.
"I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
I suppose that this is what you think is quality computer 'education':
"The computers go where they're needed, whether to music class or on a
field trip to the Florida Aquarium for an animal scavenger hunt, the
kids identifying creatures from digital pictures taken ahead of time."
Instead of looking at the animals and learning about them these
dumbasses took them to an aquarium so they could look at pictures of
animals on laptops. JFC! They could have stayed home and done that!
zolo
Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
> to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Polaski wrote:
>>
>>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>>decision making process.
>>>
>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>>
>>
>>
>>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>
>
> Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
> e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
support costs... It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
less administrative support than do PCs (Windows Update, anyone?).
Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
corresponding support requirements.
> School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed decisions.
>
>>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>
>
> Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
>
>
>>Dissent b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>
>
> Whining like a little girl because something didn't go your way
> b-a-a-a-a-d!
Who's whining? The people who should have been included in the decision
making process? The people who actually use and support the technology
on a daily basis? Oh, perish the thought that they should have opinions!
>
>
>>Conformity g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>>
>>It's intuitive. A "no brainer."
>>
>>You WILL be assimilated.
>>
>>
>
> The most humorous aspect of this is that if they had decided to go
> 100% Mac they still wouldn't have had choice or dissent just
> conformity but you would be praising them for making the 'intuitive,
> no brainer' choice about being assimilated into the cult of Steve.
> It couldn't be that you don't give a damn about the stuff you're
> prattling on about and just want to push your agenda could it?
> Nah! Not zolo! He'd never be that shallow! 8)
>
That you think you know what I would do or say is laughable. If you
believe I am a Steve-worshiping Apple apologist, you're sadly mistaken.
Platform zealots, whether Mac, Wintel, Lintel, or other, are little
more than narrow-minded, annoying children. Please tell me what, pray
tell, is my "agenda?" It's inspiring to see that rumors of extrasensory
perception are in fact true, and that you can read minds. Not.
My point was that administrators shouldn't be making idiotic
decisions about platform uniformity in such an offhanded, uneducated way
just because they think "that's what everyone else would do." It's
ironic that someone who works in a field devoted to intellectual
enlightenment would willfully make such an uneducated decision.
There are some potentially good reasons why a school system might
want to standardize on a given platform, even Wintel. Unfortunately,
the administrator in question couldn't offer even one legitimate reason.
In my opinion, leaving that decision to someone other than the end
users or technology managers (and in fact disregarding their input
altogether) is needlessly antagonistic and technologically ill-advised.
It's also narrow-minded to think that heterogeneous networks are
somehow more expensive or less reliable than homogeneous ones. Relying
completely on any one vendor or platform invites disaster if anything
should happen to exploit that particular platform. There's no reason
that several different platforms can't all play nicely together. Any IT
administrator worth his salt (someone with actual real-world experience
with multiple platforms who didn't learn everything he knows about IT
from studying MSCE exam books) should be able to integrate a
heterogeneous network without major difficulty.
-zolo
zolo
Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:22:00 GMT, Jim Polaski <jpol...@NOync.net>
> chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>decision making process.
>>
>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>
>
> The biggest surprise is that the truth managed to make a cameo
> appearance:
>
> "The Center for Advanced Technologies, the magnet program at Lakewood
> High School, has quite the streak. Five years running, a national
> educational technology group ranked Lakewood's Fast Forward the
> country's No. 1 high school news show.
>
> In the mid 1990s, Lakewood was 100 percent Mac. Lou Zulli Jr., who
> manages the center's computers, considered the Mac excellent by itself
> but deficient at working in a network. He recommended switching to
> PCs. The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs.
Hint: "In the mid 1990's"
How about some current, relevant information?
>
> Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
> friends don't let friends do Macs.
>
> "Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
> productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
> They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
> supposed to be Apple's domain."
Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
>
> Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
> not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
>
> "The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
> it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
> top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
> money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
> software."
One person's opinion. The opinions of those who disagree are equally valid.
>
> Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
> marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
> as the non-Bill Gates.
I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
stereotyping Mac users.
>
> "This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
> "Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
> tool." He gets off his soapbox.
And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
>
> "I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
> saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
<snip>
-zolo
Edwin
"zolo" <zolo...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:blsvj4$1496$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
>
>
> Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
> > to bless us with the following wisdom:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Jim Polaski wrote:
> >>
> >>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
> >>>decision making process.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
> >
> >
> > Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
> > e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
>
> Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
> support costs...
When you have to hire more support people who know about Macs, that adds to
your support cost.
>It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
> less administrative support than do PCs
It's been claimed many times, never proven. Anonymous stories posted on a
Mac fan site do not count as "proof."
>(Windows Update, anyone?).
Mac Update, anyone? How about a Mac update that disables your RAM, or your
CPU? When is Wintel going to catch up with that Apple 'innovation?'
> Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
> corresponding support requirements.
Prove it.
> > School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
Which is why they can't afford to pay more to buy Macs.
> All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
> pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed decisions.
Hmm... lets stop to make an informed decision... PCs less than $500 each...
Macs double that price... School's budget not unlimited... students expected
to have PC knowledge to get hired after graduation... informed decision
favors the PC...
> >
> >>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
> >
> >
> > Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
>
> Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
> but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
Prove that PC support and licensing cost more. Prove that the savings in
equipment costs don't offset those other costs, even if they are higher.
[snip]
Edwin
Jim Polaski
zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> wrote:
Here's the report of the superintendant's words at the Board meeting
where he informed them of what he was already doing...that unilateral
decision.
> Hinesley's boss is the elected School Board, which sets policy. Changing the
> computer equipment the district buys, Hinesley said, is not policy.
>
> He said he never sent board members any written information before he
> announced his decision Sept. 4. He said he informed them orally, during a
> July 28 workshop.
>
> The meeting ran some 51/2 hours. During the morning session, members faulted
> Hinesley for a "pattern" of communicating poorly with them. After discussing
> whether to move to the next agenda item or break early for lunch, Hinesley
> said he had something to bring to the board members' attention.
>
> The discussion lasted 45 seconds. Hinesley never used the words computer or
> classroom, Apple or Macintosh.
>
> "Okay, let me tell you one that, I have one that I want you to, that I will
> be presenting to you that will be part of my improvement plan that I really
> wanted to get started before I leave, and that is going to one platform in
> our data processing system."
>
> Chairwoman Linda Lerner: "And you'll tell us more about that?"
>
> "Yes. I'm going ahead and starting that process because it will be, it will
> mean more cost effective, it will mean a lot of positive things although none
> of that is ever really, it's really an administrative issue, but I wanted you
> to know that I'll be doing it."
>
> Board member Mary Brown: "Can you send us some information on it?"
>
> "Sure, we'll send something to you."
Bruce Grubb
"Edwin" <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
> "zolo" <zolo...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:blsvj4$1496$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
> >
> >
> > Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> > > On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
> > > to bless us with the following wisdom:
> > >>
> > >>Jim Polaski wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
> > >>>decision making process.
> > >>>
> > >>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
> > >>>
> > >>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
> > >
> > > Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
> > > e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
> >
> > Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
> > support costs...
>
> When you have to hire more support people who know about Macs, that adds to
> your support cost.
Why do you nead the *hire* more support people? Mac are so easy to take
care of these days you spend a day on training the Wintel drones you
already have on how to take care of the macs. Mush of the day is spent on
telling them stupid things that one should not do to the OS.
> >It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
> > less administrative support than do PCs
>
> It's been claimed many times, never proven. Anonymous stories posted on a
> Mac fan site do not count as "proof."
This is likely in the reference to the Gartner Group studies (made during
the 1990s) which delt with the over all support of Macs and PCs. There
1995 report shows the MORON who made this choice did zilch in research:
"1) The higher the percentage of Macintosh, the lower the technical
support costs.
2) Support costs for Macintosh are approximately 25% lower than those
for Windows.
3) On the average, less than 3 days of training per user per year
tends to increase support costs per user."
<http://www.justme.com/FairyTales/Studies/Gartner_1995.html>
This is NOT an "Anonymous stories posted on a Mac fan site"
Also even though Apple hired Gartner to do these studies they try to back
track when Apple jumps the gun with them
<http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/enterprise/
story/0,2000048640,20265999,00.htm>
Gartner Group has been saying much the same thing since 1992: Mac *do* cost
less than Windows machines to maintain and support. In fact before NT
finally came out it was 30% cheaper in the long run over a five year period.
> >(Windows Update, anyone?).
>
> Mac Update, anyone? How about a Mac update that disables your RAM, or your
> CPU? When is Wintel going to catch up with that Apple 'innovation?'
>
> > Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
> > corresponding support requirements.
>
> Prove it.
Gartner Group already did, Wintroll. Go read the the *10 years* worth of
studies.
> > > School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
>
> Which is why they can't afford to pay more to buy Macs.
Which is why they should not be dumping the Mac they have for PC as that is
money they have ALREADY spent. Money that could have gone into books,
teachers saleries, you get the idea. As Gartner Groups studies showed a
Mac had a 5 year average viable lifespan compared to a PC being only 3
years. Never mind the fact there are ways to run Windows software on a Mac.
Sure it is not as fast as running on a state of the art PC but look at the
marjority of what people use PC for: Word Process, database, spreadsheets.
With Linux rapidly eating into marketshare. USAToday showed the Linux at
5% of total marketshare and that was nearly three months ago. Chicago,
Houstan, and Munich
(<http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030714/5320229s.htm> for the
last one) have all gone Linux
>
> > All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
> > pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed decisions.
>
> Hmm... lets stop to make an informed decision... PCs less than $500 each...
Initially. As the Gartner Group studies show in the long term Macs cost
less and that was before MacOS was Unix-based. WIth Mac you now get that
lower support cost and access to all the nice FREE Linux software.
> Macs double that price... School's budget not unlimited... students expected
> to have PC knowledge to get hired after graduation... informed decision
> favors the PC...
Students are expected to have *software knowledge* to get hired after
graduation. During my five years as a substitute teacher I have seen
computer labs (mac and PC alike) turned into little more than 'select the
right answer and monkey get a banana' or even worse game rooms.
Ironicly when I was subbing we had 10 PC techs for the whole school
district who were forever fixing PCs. By contrast fixing Mac when they
went haywire was such we NEVER need calling a tech - simply insert
TechTools, run it and it told (and tells you) everything (hardware AND
software) that is wrong with a Mac and as far as software is conserned fix
it. And if it is a hardware problem you can tell your tech "the media of
my hard drive is going bad I need a new one", or "I somehow fried the SCSI
chip on my expantion card" opposed to Nortain Utilities which simply tries
to fix the bad sectors untilt he drive finally goes 'plop' and the tech
spending hours before he figures the card is the cause of the problem.
> > >>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
> > >
> > >
> > > Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
> >
> > Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
> > but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
>
> Prove that PC support and licensing cost more.
Gartner Group reports. Wintroll rides again... right off a cliff.
Edwin
"Bruce Grubb" <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:bgrubb-4428C6....@news.zianet.com...
> In article <blugph$gk98p$1...@ID-56786.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> "Edwin" <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > "zolo" <zolo...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:blsvj4$1496$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
> > >
> > >
> > > Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net>
chose
> > > > to bless us with the following wisdom:
> > > >>
> > > >>Jim Polaski wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school
administrators
> > > >>>decision making process.
> > > >>>
> > >
>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
> > > >>>
> > > >>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
> > > >
> > > > Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
> > > > e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
> > >
> > > Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
> > > support costs...
> >
> > When you have to hire more support people who know about Macs, that adds
to
> > your support cost.
>
> Why do you nead the *hire* more support people?
To get people who know the Mac.
> Mac are so easy to take
> care of these days you spend a day on training the Wintel drones
Using Windows make one sub-human?
> you
> already have on how to take care of the macs. Mush of the day is spent on
> telling them stupid things that one should not do to the OS.
Macs have a different list of "stupid things" you shouldn't do to them.
> > >It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
> > > less administrative support than do PCs
> >
> > It's been claimed many times, never proven. Anonymous stories posted on
a
> > Mac fan site do not count as "proof."
>
> This is likely in the reference to the Gartner Group studies (made during
> the 1990s) which delt with the over all support of Macs and PCs. There
> 1995 report shows the MORON who made this choice did zilch in research:
Your eight year old study is irrelevant.
> "1) The higher the percentage of Macintosh, the lower the technical
> support costs.
> 2) Support costs for Macintosh are approximately 25% lower than those
> for Windows.
> 3) On the average, less than 3 days of training per user per year
> tends to increase support costs per user."
>
> <http://www.justme.com/FairyTales/Studies/Gartner_1995.html>
>
> This is NOT an "Anonymous stories posted on a Mac fan site"
It's old, irrelvent information from a time when many PC user were still
using Win 3.x, and even DOS.
> Also even though Apple hired Gartner to do these studies they try to back
> track when Apple jumps the gun with them
> <http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/enterprise/
> story/0,2000048640,20265999,00.htm>
>
> Gartner Group has been saying much the same thing since 1992: Mac *do*
cost
> less than Windows machines to maintain and support. In fact before NT
> finally came out it was 30% cheaper in the long run over a five year
period.
1992? You're getting even older and more irrelvant with your out of date
studies.
> > >(Windows Update, anyone?).
> >
> > Mac Update, anyone? How about a Mac update that disables your RAM, or
your
> > CPU? When is Wintel going to catch up with that Apple 'innovation?'
> >
> > > Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
> > > corresponding support requirements.
> >
> > Prove it.
>
> Gartner Group already did, Wintroll. Go read the the *10 years* worth of
> studies.
Wrong, Mactroll. Eight year old studies mean nothing.
>
> > > > School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
> >
> > Which is why they can't afford to pay more to buy Macs.
>
> Which is why they should not be dumping the Mac they have for PC as that
is
> money they have ALREADY spent.
They have to dump their obsolete Macs and upgrade to new Macs. That costs
more than new PCs.
> Money that could have gone into books,
> teachers saleries, you get the idea.
Yeah, they should have never have bought Macs in the first place...
> As Gartner Groups studies showed a
> Mac had a 5 year average viable lifespan compared to a PC being only 3
> years. .
Again you refer to information that's eight years out of date...
> Never mind the fact there are ways to run Windows software on a Mac
Pay more for Macs to run Windows software? Yes, please "never mind" that.
> Sure it is not as fast as running on a state of the art PC but look at the
> marjority of what people use PC for: Word Process, database, spreadsheets.
> With Linux rapidly eating into marketshare. USAToday showed the Linux at
> 5% of total marketshare and that was nearly three months ago. Chicago,
> Houstan, and Munich
> (<http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030714/5320229s.htm> for the
> last one) have all gone Linux
Thanks for another reason for the school to get PCs instead of Macs...
>
> >
> > > All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
> > > pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed
decisions.
> >
> > Hmm... lets stop to make an informed decision... PCs less than $500
each...
>
> Initially. As the Gartner Group studies show in the long term Macs cost
> less and that was before MacOS was Unix-based. WIth Mac you now get that
> lower support cost and access to all the nice FREE Linux software.
>
> > Macs double that price... School's budget not unlimited... students
expected
> > to have PC knowledge to get hired after graduation... informed decision
> > favors the PC...
>
> Students are expected to have *software knowledge* to get hired after
> graduation.
No, they're expected to know Windows and Windows applications.
> During my five years as a substitute teacher I have seen
> computer labs (mac and PC alike) turned into little more than 'select the
> right answer and monkey get a banana' or even worse game rooms.
Given what you wrote above, I can see why that happened.
> Ironicly when I was subbing we had 10 PC techs for the whole school
> district who were forever fixing PCs. By contrast fixing Mac when they
> went haywire was such we NEVER need calling a tech - simply insert
> TechTools, run it and it told (and tells you) everything (hardware AND
> software) that is wrong with a Mac and as far as software is conserned fix
> it. And if it is a hardware problem you can tell your tech "the media of
> my hard drive is going bad I need a new one", or "I somehow fried the SCSI
> chip on my expantion card" opposed to Nortain Utilities which simply tries
> to fix the bad sectors untilt he drive finally goes 'plop' and the tech
> spending hours before he figures the card is the cause of the problem.
I can read between the lines of what you wrote. You had a few Macs used by
teachers, as opposed to many PCs getting pounding on by students. You
extrapolated the meager experience with few Macs up to what you think it
would be if there were as many Macs as you had PCs.
I've had drives go bad in my Mac, and I know from experience the
troubleshooting isn't the snap you make it out to be.
>
> > > >>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
> > >
> > > Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
> > > but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
> >
> > Prove that PC support and licensing cost more.
>
>
> Gartner Group reports.
Out of date. Irrelevant. Try again.
> Wintroll rides again... right off a cliff.
In your dreams. By the way, that big thing you see rising to meet you is
called "the ground."
Edwin
David Fritzinger
Pssstt! Edwin! I'll give you a hint. Since they already have Macs in
the school system, they probably don't need to hire people who know
the Mac.
>
> > Mac are so easy to take
> > care of these days you spend a day on training the Wintel drones
>
> Using Windows make one sub-human?
Aww heck, I can't resist it. In your case, perhaps <G>
>
> > you
> > already have on how to take care of the macs. Mush of the day is spent on
> > telling them stupid things that one should not do to the OS.
>
> Macs have a different list of "stupid things" you shouldn't do to them.
Like dropping them on a concrete floor?
Dave Fritzinger
[snip]
Edwin
"David Fritzinger" <dfri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b82925bb.03100...@posting.google.com...
Shall we forget the Maccie stories about one Mac support person for a whole
district, or their stories about users supporting themselves?
Pssst! David! I'll give you a hint. A school disrtict getting talked into
buying Macs doesn't mean support people automagically came with the package.
Especially if they bought into the myths I mentioned above.
> > > Mac are so easy to take
> > > care of these days you spend a day on training the Wintel drones
> >
> > Using Windows make one sub-human?
>
> Aww heck, I can't resist it. In your case, perhaps <G>
> >
> > > you
> > > already have on how to take care of the macs. Mush of the day is
spent on
> > > telling them stupid things that one should not do to the OS.
> >
> > Macs have a different list of "stupid things" you shouldn't do to them.
>
> Like dropping them on a concrete floor?
Resist the urge.
Edwin
Edwin
>
>
> Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:22:00 GMT, Jim Polaski <jpol...@NOync.net>
> > chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
> >
> >
> >>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
> >>decision making process.
> >>
> >>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
> >
> >
> > The biggest surprise is that the truth managed to make a cameo
> > appearance:
> >
> > "The Center for Advanced Technologies, the magnet program at Lakewood
> > High School, has quite the streak. Five years running, a national
> > educational technology group ranked Lakewood's Fast Forward the
> > country's No. 1 high school news show.
> >
> > In the mid 1990s, Lakewood was 100 percent Mac. Lou Zulli Jr., who
> > manages the center's computers, considered the Mac excellent by itself
> > but deficient at working in a network. He recommended switching to
> > PCs. The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs.
>
> Hint: "In the mid 1990's"
> How about some current, relevant information?
Hint: the story is from October 5, 2003. The sentence below begins with the
words "Today at Lakewood..."
> > Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
> > friends don't let friends do Macs.
> >
> > "Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
> > productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
> > They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
> > supposed to be Apple's domain."
>
> Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
> (versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
The school attibutes the difference to the change to PCs. Argue with them
if you don't believe them.
Then explain why you don't demand such information when similar claims are
made on Apple's behalf...
> >
> > Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
> > not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
> >
> > "The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
> > it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
> > top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
> > money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
> > software."
>
> One person's opinion. The opinions of those who disagree are equally
valid.
Yeah, lets forget all those productivity gains, awards, and cost savings,
and swap opinions instead...
> >
> > Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
> > marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
> > as the non-Bill Gates.
>
> I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
> stereotyping Mac users.
Methinks you protest too much...
Besides, he never generalized Mac users as lemmings, cockroaches, or herd
animals, did he, MacHypocrit?
> >
> > "This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
> > "Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
> > tool." He gets off his soapbox.
>
> And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
A blinding flash of irony...
> >
> > "I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
> > saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
>
> Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
The Apple RDF will always contain its own "truth," eh?
Edwin
Mayor of R'lyeh
to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
>> to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Polaski wrote:
>>>
>>>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>>>decision making process.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>>
>>
>> Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
>> e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
>
>Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
>support costs...
Well the salary for the Mac support people comes to mind right away.
> It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
>less administrative support than do PCs (Windows Update, anyone?).
Apple Update anyone?
>Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
>corresponding support requirements.
Actually there are a handful of Apple funded studies showing that
MacOS has less support costs. Those are worth the obvious.
The oft-waved Gartner study compared the old MacOS. It shows that Unix
based systems have a much higher TCO than Windows does. In case you
missed it MacOS is now Unix based.
>
>> School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
>
>All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
>pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed decisions.
What is it about the statement "He has known for years what had to be
done." that leads you to belief it was 'spontaneous'?
I know it was the 'He didn't pick my favorite system!' that led you to
the uniformed part. 8)
>>>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>>
>>
>> Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
>
>Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
>but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
Your assertions are unsupported by anything resembling facts.
>
>>
>>
>>>Dissent b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>>
>>
>> Whining like a little girl because something didn't go your way
>> b-a-a-a-a-d!
>
>Who's whining?
You and all the other Maccies. Its what you guys do.
> The people who should have been included in the decision
>making process? The people who actually use and support the technology
>on a daily basis? Oh, perish the thought that they should have opinions!
Oh my! An excutive made a decision! Horrors! Its only part of his job!
What made him think he had the right to do the job he was hired to
do?!
>>
>>
>>>Conformity g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>>>
>>>It's intuitive. A "no brainer."
>>>
>>>You WILL be assimilated.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The most humorous aspect of this is that if they had decided to go
>> 100% Mac they still wouldn't have had choice or dissent just
>> conformity but you would be praising them for making the 'intuitive,
>> no brainer' choice about being assimilated into the cult of Steve.
>> It couldn't be that you don't give a damn about the stuff you're
>> prattling on about and just want to push your agenda could it?
>> Nah! Not zolo! He'd never be that shallow! 8)
>>
>
> That you think you know what I would do or say is laughable.
Trust me. None of you guys are subtle about it.
> If you believe I am a Steve-worshiping Apple apologist, you're sadly mistaken.
I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of denial.
> Platform zealots, whether Mac, Wintel, Lintel, or other, are little
>more than narrow-minded, annoying children.
Don't be so tough on yourself. I'm sure you must have some redeeming
characteristics. They are immediately apparent but I'm sure they must
be around somewhere.
> Please tell me what, pray tell, is my "agenda?"
You mean you forgot?
> It's inspiring to see that rumors of extrasensory
>perception are in fact true, and that you can read minds. Not.
>
> My point was that administrators shouldn't be making idiotic
>decisions about platform uniformity in such an offhanded, uneducated way
>just because they think "that's what everyone else would do." It's
>ironic that someone who works in a field devoted to intellectual
>enlightenment would willfully make such an uneducated decision.
With 'uneducated' being your codeword for 'He didn't pick my favorite
platform! Waaah! Waaah! Waaah!'.
>
> There are some potentially good reasons why a school system might
>want to standardize on a given platform, even Wintel. Unfortunately,
>the administrator in question couldn't offer even one legitimate reason.
"With demand on computers up and budgets lean, what's the biggest
business in Pinellas to do? Keep two platforms, with redundancy and
added costs? Or go single platform, integrated and seamless?
Swinyard said the choice is clear. Next, which platform? "Do we use
the system that 97 percent of the world is using, or are we going to
be the only large organization in the world that's 100 percent Mac?"
Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them illegitimate.
> In my opinion, leaving that decision to someone other than the end
>users or technology managers (and in fact disregarding their input
>altogether) is needlessly antagonistic and technologically ill-advised.
The guy is supposed to make these kinds of decisions. That's his job.
>
> It's also narrow-minded to think that heterogeneous networks are
>somehow more expensive or less reliable than homogeneous ones. Relying
>completely on any one vendor or platform invites disaster if anything
>should happen to exploit that particular platform. There's no reason
>that several different platforms can't all play nicely together. Any IT
>administrator worth his salt (someone with actual real-world experience
>with multiple platforms who didn't learn everything he knows about IT
>from studying MSCE exam books) should be able to integrate a
>heterogeneous network without major difficulty.
And how many of these people are willing to settle for the salary a
school system will pay them?
Mayor of R'lyeh
to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:22:00 GMT, Jim Polaski <jpol...@NOync.net>
>> chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>
>>
>>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>>decision making process.
>>>
>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>
>>
>> The biggest surprise is that the truth managed to make a cameo
>> appearance:
>>
>> "The Center for Advanced Technologies, the magnet program at Lakewood
>> High School, has quite the streak. Five years running, a national
>> educational technology group ranked Lakewood's Fast Forward the
>> country's No. 1 high school news show.
>>
>> In the mid 1990s, Lakewood was 100 percent Mac. Lou Zulli Jr., who
>> manages the center's computers, considered the Mac excellent by itself
>> but deficient at working in a network. He recommended switching to
>> PCs. The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs.
>
>Hint: "In the mid 1990's"
> How about some current, relevant information?
How about one line down?
"Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
friends don't let friends do Macs.
"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
supposed to be Apple's domain."
I'm surprised that you missed it earlier.
>>
>> Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
>> friends don't let friends do Macs.
>>
>> "Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
>> productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
>> They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
>> supposed to be Apple's domain."
>
>Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
>(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
I'm going with what Mr. Zulli says. I believe that he's a better
position to know than either of us and he says it had to do with the
switch.
>
>>
>> Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
>> not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
>>
>> "The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
>> it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
>> top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
>> money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
>> software."
>
>One person's opinion.
One person in the business.
> The opinions of those who disagree are equally valid.
Despite the currently popular PC trend to push the notion that 'all
opinions are valid', wrong opinions are still invalid.
>>
>> Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
>> marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
>> as the non-Bill Gates.
>
>I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
>stereotyping Mac users.
Yeah. He could have invoked some kind of herd animal to describe a
group of computer users. Wouldn't that have a terrible thing to say?
Instead all he did was relay some readily observable facts.
>
>>
>> "This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
>> "Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
>> tool." He gets off his soapbox.
>
>And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
*cough* *sputter*...Don't do things like that when I'm taking a drink.
You nearly killed me!
>
>>
>> "I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
>> saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
>
>Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
*cough* *cough* *cough* *sputter*....What did I just tell you, dammit!
Wade Williams
> students expected
> to have PC knowledge to get hired after graduation...
Oh bull.
If you've worked on any personal computer, you can get hired.
You're telling me that if a student went his entire school life using
only Linux, he could never get a job in a Windows shop?
Wade
Wade Williams
<thor...@juno.com> wrote:
> It's old, irrelvent information from a time when many PC user were still
> using Win 3.x, and even DOS.
That's fine. Show us an up-to-date study which favors the PC.
Wade
Wade Williams
R'lyeh <ev5...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It shows that Unix
> based systems have a much higher TCO than Windows does. In case you
> missed it MacOS is now Unix based.
Ah, nice try.
That would be comparing traditional Unixes of Solaris and Linux. You
know, the ones where you had to say, "to add a disk drive, simply edit
/etc/fstab in vi and....".
The equation is dramatically different for OS X, since it requires zero
Unix knowledge on 99% of tasks, and would even be different for Linux
today, since Linux's interface and setup have continued to improve.
Wade
Edwin
"Wade Williams" <wa...@remove.spam.dogwatchsw.com> wrote in message
news:081020031143229110%wa...@remove.spam.dogwatchsw.com...
Anyone who knows how to comparison shop can do their own study...
Edwin
Edwin
> In article <blugph$gk98p$1...@ID-56786.news.uni-berlin.de>, Edwin
> <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > students expected
> > to have PC knowledge to get hired after graduation...
>
> Oh bull.
Thanks for announcing you were coming out with bull before you did in the
next sentence.
> If you've worked on any personal computer, you can get hired.
Sure, ride up on your HotWheel, wearing your propeller cap, and proudly
proclaim your C64 experience...
> You're telling me that if a student went his entire school life using
> only Linux, he could never get a job in a Windows shop?
No, not never. First he'd have to get the Windows training his school
failed to give him.
Employers want workers who're proficient in Windows and Windows apps, not
people who'll figure it out by extrapolation from Macs or Linux.
Edwin
Mayor of R'lyeh
<wa...@remove.spam.dogwatchsw.com> chose to bless us with the following
wisdom:
>In article <glb8ovsfdudq6v6hs...@4ax.com>, Mayor of
>R'lyeh <ev5...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It shows that Unix
>> based systems have a much higher TCO than Windows does. In case you
>> missed it MacOS is now Unix based.
>
>Ah, nice try.
Telling the truth about what the report says without all the spin
you're going to put on it is just that - telling the truth.
>
>That would be comparing traditional Unixes of Solaris and Linux. You
>know, the ones where you had to say, "to add a disk drive, simply edit
>/etc/fstab in vi and....".
I see no indication of this in the available summaries for the report.
What evidence do you have for this bold assertion?
>
>The equation is dramatically different for OS X, since it requires zero
>Unix knowledge on 99% of tasks, and would even be different for Linux
>today, since Linux's interface and setup have continued to improve.
So you're saying that the Gartner study is as invalid and meaningless
today as it was when it was released and people used its criteria to
show that the office coffee pot and restrooms have astronomical TCOs?
Gotcha!
David C. Fritzinger
<thor...@juno.com> wrote:
Eddie, I'm talking about _this_ school district. They already had Macs,
so it stands to reason (I almost forgot who I'm talking to. Eddie
doesn't understand reason) that they would already have Mac support
people. Please do learn to read for comprehension. Or, does that spoil
your "argument".
>
> Pssst! David! I'll give you a hint. A school disrtict getting talked into
> buying Macs doesn't mean support people automagically came with the package.
> Especially if they bought into the myths I mentioned above.
Again, do learn to read for comprehension. This school district
_already_ had Macs.Therefore, it does stand to reason (there, I used
that word that Eddie doesn't understand again) that they would already
have people who could support Macs.
>
> > > > Mac are so easy to take
> > > > care of these days you spend a day on training the Wintel drones
> > >
> > > Using Windows make one sub-human?
> >
> > Aww heck, I can't resist it. In your case, perhaps <G>
> > >
> > > > you
> > > > already have on how to take care of the macs. Mush of the day is
> spent on
> > > > telling them stupid things that one should not do to the OS.
> > >
> > > Macs have a different list of "stupid things" you shouldn't do to them.
> >
> > Like dropping them on a concrete floor?
>
> Resist the urge.
Unlike you, Eddie, I've never had the urge.
Dave Fritzinger
>
> Edwin
Mayor of R'lyeh
<dfri...@nospam.hotmail.nospam.com> chose to bless us with the
following wisdom:
What Edwin is responding to is:
"Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds
to support costs..."
If you'll notice there's nothing in there about any specific place.
> They already had Macs,
>so it stands to reason (I almost forgot who I'm talking to. Eddie
>doesn't understand reason) that they would already have Mac support
>people. Please do learn to read for comprehension. Or, does that spoil
>your "argument".
And by going all PC they can eliminate them and count that savings as
part of the overall savings. I'd think that would be obvious.
David C. Fritzinger
R'lyeh <ev5...@hotmail.com> wrote:
But, Mayor, Eddie was responding to _me_.
>
> > They already had Macs,
> >so it stands to reason (I almost forgot who I'm talking to. Eddie
> >doesn't understand reason) that they would already have Mac support
> >people. Please do learn to read for comprehension. Or, does that spoil
> >your "argument".
>
> And by going all PC they can eliminate them and count that savings as
> part of the overall savings. I'd think that would be obvious.
>
Why? Same support people. Doesn't seem obvious to me.
Dave Fritzinger
zolo
Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:58:35 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
> to bless us with the following wisdom:
>
>
>>
>>Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:25:30 -0400, zolo <zolo...@nospam.net> chose
>>>to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Polaski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>>>>decision making process.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Choice b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>>>
>>>
>>>Supporting multiple platforms with the redunancy involved
>>>e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e!
>>
>>Please describe in detail how using Macs on a Wintel network adds to
>>support costs...
>
>
> Well the salary for the Mac support people comes to mind right away.
Oh, you mean the ones that were already working for the district?
>
>
>>It's been proven time and again that Macs need far
>>less administrative support than do PCs (Windows Update, anyone?).
>
>
> Apple Update anyone?
If you think they're even remotely similar in quantity and frequency,
you're severely deluded...
>
>
>>Therefore, the fewer the number of PCs vs. Macs, the lower the
>>corresponding support requirements.
>
>
> Actually there are a handful of Apple funded studies showing that
> MacOS has less support costs. Those are worth the obvious.
> The oft-waved Gartner study compared the old MacOS. It shows that Unix
> based systems have a much higher TCO than Windows does. In case you
> missed it MacOS is now Unix based.
OS X is a completely different animal than traditional UNIX platforms
and you know it. A system administrator can get by supporting OS X
machines without needing any UNIX knowledge.
>
>
>>>School budget n-o-t u-n-l-i-m-i-t-e-d!
>>
>>All the more reason to spend money wisely after carefully reviewing
>>pertinent information instead of making spontaneous, uninformed decisions.
>
>
> What is it about the statement "He has known for years what had to be
> done." that leads you to belief it was 'spontaneous'?
> I know it was the 'He didn't pick my favorite system!' that led you to
> the uniformed part. 8)
You are clueless. My "favorite system" isn't Mac/OS X. I prefer it to
WinBlows, but it's not my favorite. Again, your dismissive, arrogant
assumptions about what I'm thinking show your lack of maturity and
betray your real agenda.
>
>
>>>>Uniformity g-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>>>
>>>
>>>Saving money g-o-o-o-o-d!
>>
>>Only by your twisted definition does spending less upfront on hardware
>>but more over time on IT support and licensing fees mean "saving."
>
>
> Your assertions are unsupported by anything resembling facts.
Fact: Macs have far less demanding support requirements than Windows
systems, especially under OS X. Source: My own personal experience as
a system administrator, managing both.
>
>
>>>
>>>>Dissent b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d!
>>>
>>>
>>>Whining like a little girl because something didn't go your way
>>>b-a-a-a-a-d!
>>
>>Who's whining?
>
>
> You and all the other Maccies. Its what you guys do.
Oh, like name calling. It's what you and all the other WinTrolls do.
>
>
>>The people who should have been included in the decision
>>making process? The people who actually use and support the technology
>>on a daily basis? Oh, perish the thought that they should have opinions!
>
>
> Oh my! An excutive made a decision! Horrors! Its only part of his job!
> What made him think he had the right to do the job he was hired to
> do?!
If an executive makes a bad decision, it's the business of everyone who
works under him.
>
>
>>>
>>>>Conformity g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d!
>>>>
>>>>It's intuitive. A "no brainer."
>>>>
>>>>You WILL be assimilated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>The most humorous aspect of this is that if they had decided to go
>>>100% Mac they still wouldn't have had choice or dissent just
>>>conformity but you would be praising them for making the 'intuitive,
>>>no brainer' choice about being assimilated into the cult of Steve.
>>>It couldn't be that you don't give a damn about the stuff you're
>>>prattling on about and just want to push your agenda could it?
>>>Nah! Not zolo! He'd never be that shallow! 8)
>>>
>>
>> That you think you know what I would do or say is laughable.
>
>
> Trust me. None of you guys are subtle about it.
Trust me. You're arrogant in assuming you know everything. Grow up.
>
>
>>If you believe I am a Steve-worshiping Apple apologist, you're sadly mistaken.
>
>
> I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of denial.
You are the one in denial, my friend. You blindly assume that anyone
who chooses Macs over Wintel PCs is automatically a Mac zealot. Are you
really that frightened that someone might actually choose an Apple
decision over a Wintel one based on its merits, not on brand loyalty?
I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of insecurity.
>
>
>> Platform zealots, whether Mac, Wintel, Lintel, or other, are little
>>more than narrow-minded, annoying children.
>
>
> Don't be so tough on yourself. I'm sure you must have some redeeming
> characteristics. They are immediately apparent but I'm sure they must
> be around somewhere.
If you say it enough times, it MUST be true, right?
>
>
>> Please tell me what, pray tell, is my "agenda?"
>
>
> You mean you forgot?
How can I forget that which you have not indentified and proven? Take a
good long look at a dictionary to learn the difference between a fact
and an opinion.
>
>
>>It's inspiring to see that rumors of extrasensory
>>perception are in fact true, and that you can read minds. Not.
>>
>> My point was that administrators shouldn't be making idiotic
>>decisions about platform uniformity in such an offhanded, uneducated way
>>just because they think "that's what everyone else would do." It's
>>ironic that someone who works in a field devoted to intellectual
>>enlightenment would willfully make such an uneducated decision.
>
>
> With 'uneducated' being your codeword for 'He didn't pick my favorite
> platform! Waaah! Waaah! Waaah!'.
As I've said already, Mac/OS X isn't my favorite platform. You are
apparently so threatened by the thought that someone might not choose
Wintel that you can only respond with charges of zealotry and brand bias.
>
>
>> There are some potentially good reasons why a school system might
>>want to standardize on a given platform, even Wintel. Unfortunately,
>>the administrator in question couldn't offer even one legitimate reason.
>
>
> "With demand on computers up and budgets lean, what's the biggest
> business in Pinellas to do? Keep two platforms, with redundancy and
> added costs? Or go single platform, integrated and seamless?
Explain how a heterogeneous network introduces "redundancy," please. It
seems to be your favorite buzzword. Enlighten me with your vast
networking knowledge. Also explain the "added costs," beyond initial
hardware prices. Is it impossible to find IT support staff who (gasp!
persih the thought!) have experience with multiple platforms, not just
Microsoft solutions? And would such personnel necessarily have higher
wage requirements?
>
> Swinyard said the choice is clear. Next, which platform? "Do we use
> the system that 97 percent of the world is using, or are we going to
> be the only large organization in the world that's 100 percent Mac?"
>
> Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them illegitimate.
>
>
>> In my opinion, leaving that decision to someone other than the end
>>users or technology managers (and in fact disregarding their input
>>altogether) is needlessly antagonistic and technologically ill-advised.
>
>
> The guy is supposed to make these kinds of decisions. That's his job.
And it's my opinion that he's doing it badly.
>
>
>> It's also narrow-minded to think that heterogeneous networks are
>>somehow more expensive or less reliable than homogeneous ones. Relying
>>completely on any one vendor or platform invites disaster if anything
>>should happen to exploit that particular platform. There's no reason
>>that several different platforms can't all play nicely together. Any IT
>>administrator worth his salt (someone with actual real-world experience
>>with multiple platforms who didn't learn everything he knows about IT
>
>>from studying MSCE exam books) should be able to integrate a
>
>>heterogeneous network without major difficulty.
>
>
> And how many of these people are willing to settle for the salary a
> school system will pay them?
>
Are you saying that an IT manager who knows more than just Wintel
solutions can command a higher salary? How can this be? After all, if
someone already knows the "superior platform," how could knowledge of
other platforms be of any value? Nice corner you've painted yourself into.
-zolo
zolo
Edwin wrote:
> "zolo" <zolo...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:blt00r$1498$1...@newsfeeds.rpi.edu...
>
>>
>>Mayor of R'lyeh wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:22:00 GMT, Jim Polaski <jpol...@NOync.net>
>>>chose to bless us with the following wisdom:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Here's and article that details the wrongness of school administrators
>>>>decision making process.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.sptimes.com/2003/10/05/Tampabay/District_s_move_to_dr.shtml
>>>
>>>
>>>The biggest surprise is that the truth managed to make a cameo
>>>appearance:
>>>
>>>"The Center for Advanced Technologies, the magnet program at Lakewood
>>>High School, has quite the streak. Five years running, a national
>>>educational technology group ranked Lakewood's Fast Forward the
>>>country's No. 1 high school news show.
>>>
>>>In the mid 1990s, Lakewood was 100 percent Mac. Lou Zulli Jr., who
>>>manages the center's computers, considered the Mac excellent by itself
>>>but deficient at working in a network. He recommended switching to
>>>PCs. The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs.
>>
>>Hint: "In the mid 1990's"
>> How about some current, relevant information?
>
>
> Hint: the story is from October 5, 2003. The sentence below begins with the
> words "Today at Lakewood..."
Hint: My point is that his opinion about Macs and networking, while
perhaps valid in the mid 90's, is clearly baseless today.
>
>
>>>Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
>>>friends don't let friends do Macs.
>>>
>>>"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
>>>productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
>>>They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
>>>supposed to be Apple's domain."
>>
>>Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
>>(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
>
>
> The school attibutes the difference to the change to PCs. Argue with them
> if you don't believe them.
Gladly.
>
> Then explain why you don't demand such information when similar claims are
> made on Apple's behalf...
Because it's intuitive. It's a "no brainer."
>
>
>>>Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
>>>not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
>>>
>>>"The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
>>>it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
>>>top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
>>>money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
>>>software."
>>
>>One person's opinion. The opinions of those who disagree are equally
>
> valid.
>
> Yeah, lets forget all those productivity gains, awards, and cost savings,
> and swap opinions instead...
If there were a control group of teachers who had continued to use
Apples and whose results could be compared with those who used PCs, I
might be inclined to take that serioulsly. Absent that, there are too
many other variables in the equation to attribute productivity gains or
awards to a platform switch. Of course the teachers had nothing to do
with it. It couldn't be the curriculum or the quality of the teachers
now, could it? As for the cost savings, where is the proof? Where is
the control group to do an A/B comparison? Meaningless.
>
>
>>>Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
>>>marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
>>>as the non-Bill Gates.
>>
>>I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
>>stereotyping Mac users.
>
>
> Methinks you protest too much...
>
> Besides, he never generalized Mac users as lemmings, cockroaches, or herd
> animals, did he, MacHypocrit?
Just as I would never generalize Wintrolls as lonely, narcissistic
misanthropes. It's "hypocrite," by the way.
>
>>>"This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
>>>"Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
>>>tool." He gets off his soapbox.
>>
>>And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
>
>
> A blinding flash of irony...
As Edwin sees himself in the accused...
>
>
>>>"I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
>>>saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
>>
>>Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
>
>
> The Apple RDF will always contain its own "truth," eh?
No wonder you and the Mayor get along so well. You're both so insecure
in your own decision to use a PC that you feel the need to constantly
troll a Mac advocacy group and challenge anyone who supports the
platform. You apparently believe that anyone who chooses a Mac over a
PC must automatically be a member of the brainwashed cult of Jobs. It
must be too terrible a blow to your psyche to entertain the possibility
that some people choose Apple solutions simply because they like them
more than PC offerings. I would have far less of a problem with the
school district issue if the administrator had just said "I like PCs
better" instead of offering lame pseudojustifications for his decision.
-zolo
zolo
I missed nothing. I was referring to the comment about Macs being
deficiant at networking. It's clearly not the case today, though it may
have been in the early 90's.
>
>
>>>Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
>>>friends don't let friends do Macs.
>>>
>>>"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
>>>productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
>>>They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
>>>supposed to be Apple's domain."
>>
>>Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
>>(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
>
>
> I'm going with what Mr. Zulli says. I believe that he's a better
> position to know than either of us and he says it had to do with the
> switch.
Where is his proof? There's no control group to prove his inference
that PCs are responsible for the productivity or awards. There are too
many other variables in the equation to attribute the results to the
platform change.
>
>
>>>Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
>>>not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
>>>
>>>"The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
>>>it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
>>>top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
>>>money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
>>>software."
>>
>>One person's opinion.
>
>
> One person in the business.
Versus another person's opinion in the business: mine.
>
>
>>The opinions of those who disagree are equally valid.
>
>
> Despite the currently popular PC trend to push the notion that 'all
> opinions are valid', wrong opinions are still invalid.
Invalid according to whom? Those with a different opinion? Political
correctness doesn't enter into it. An opinion can't be right or wrong.
Opinions are inherently subjective statements. Only a fact can be
right or wrong. You need to consult your dictionary posthaste.
>
>
>
>>>Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
>>>marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
>>>as the non-Bill Gates.
>>
>>I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
>>stereotyping Mac users.
>
>
> Yeah. He could have invoked some kind of herd animal to describe a
> group of computer users. Wouldn't that have a terrible thing to say?
> Instead all he did was relay some readily observable facts.
The herd metaphor was appropriate in his case given his justification
that "everyone's doing it!" His "readily observable facts" are an
opinion. Again, I urge you to consult a dictionary.
>
>
>>>"This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
>>>"Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
>>>tool." He gets off his soapbox.
>>
>>And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
>
>
> *cough* *sputter*...Don't do things like that when I'm taking a drink.
> You nearly killed me!
I'll try harder next time.
>
>
>>>"I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
>>>saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
>>
>>Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
>
>
> *cough* *cough* *cough* *sputter*....What did I just tell you, dammit!
Not hard enough, apparently...
-zolo
Edwin
What Maccie would have agreed with him back then?
Also, did you miss the part in the next sentence where they say they still
have 11 Macs? They don't seem to be impressing anyone to switch back...
> >
> >
> >>>Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
> >>>friends don't let friends do Macs.
> >>>
> >>>"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
> >>>productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
> >>>They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
> >>>supposed to be Apple's domain."
> >>
> >>Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
> >>(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
> >
> >
> > The school attibutes the difference to the change to PCs. Argue with
them
> > if you don't believe them.
>
> Gladly.
When did you start?
> >
> > Then explain why you don't demand such information when similar claims
are
> > made on Apple's behalf...
>
> Because it's intuitive. It's a "no brainer."
If it favors the PC, you demand proof, but if it favors the Mac, no proof is
required? Nice hypocricy.
> >
> >
> >>>Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
> >>>not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
> >>>
> >>>"The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
> >>>it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
> >>>top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
> >>>money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
> >>>software."
> >>
> >>One person's opinion. The opinions of those who disagree are equally
> >
> > valid.
> >
> > Yeah, lets forget all those productivity gains, awards, and cost
savings,
> > and swap opinions instead...
>
> If there were a control group of teachers who had continued to use
> Apples and whose results could be compared with those who used PCs,
They still have 11 Macs.
> I might be inclined to take that serioulsly.
Begin taking it seriously.
>Absent that, there are too
> many other variables in the equation to attribute productivity gains or
> awards to a platform switch.
You mean like they stopped being a school and became a cheese factory
instead?
>Of course the teachers had nothing to do
> with it.
"The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs"
>It couldn't be the curriculum or the quality of the teachers
> now, could it?
How did the switch to PCs make the teachers and the cirriculum better?
> As for the cost savings, where is the proof? Where is
> the control group to do an A/B comparison? Meaningless.
How about how much they paid to be all Mac compared to what they paid to be
all PC?
They ought to know the difference in support costs first hand too.
> >
> >
> >>>Mac users, he said, have "an irrational love of a system" that Apple
> >>>marketed as the alternative to the Orwellian world, morphed into Mac
> >>>as the non-Bill Gates.
> >>
> >>I'm glad that he's not using any sweeping generalizations or
> >>stereotyping Mac users.
> >
> >
> > Methinks you protest too much...
> >
> > Besides, he never generalized Mac users as lemmings, cockroaches, or
herd
> > animals, did he, MacHypocrit?
>
> Just as I would never generalize Wintrolls as lonely, narcissistic
> misanthropes.
Sure you wouldn't. :-P
>It's "hypocrite," by the way.
Thanks. Spell checkers don't work on made up words...
> >
> >>>"This is the great Satan," Zulli said, rapping a PC in mock horror.
> >>>"Dammit, it's a tool, it's a better tool, and it's a more pervasive
> >>>tool." He gets off his soapbox.
> >>
> >>And a soapbox it is. His true colors are revealed.
> >
> >
> > A blinding flash of irony...
>
> As Edwin sees himself in the accused...
Uh, no...
> >
> >
> >>>"I absolutely am going to get crucified by my teaching brethren for
> >>>saying this, I'm going to be a pariah. But it's the truth."
> >>
> >>Declaring something is a truth doesn't make it true for everyone.
> >
> >
> > The Apple RDF will always contain its own "truth," eh?
>
> No wonder you and the Mayor get along so well. You're both so insecure
> in your own decision to use a PC that you feel the need to constantly
> troll a Mac advocacy group and challenge anyone who supports the
> platform.
I troll the Mac groups because the wacky responses I get are hilarious.
As far as my decision to use the PC goes, that went according to my
pocketbook and what I need for work. No insecurity there. PCs are still
less expensive, and I'm probably more likely to get hit by a meterite than
end up with a Mac on my desk at work.
>You apparently believe that anyone who chooses a Mac over a
> PC must automatically be a member of the brainwashed cult of Jobs.
Not so. I only believe that about a few people who post here.
>It
> must be too terrible a blow to your psyche to entertain the possibility
> that some people choose Apple solutions simply because they like them
> more than PC offerings.
Why should it be?
One of the things I have a troulble with is when some people, who pick a
computer by only personal preference, project that method into others.
> I would have far less of a problem with the
> school district issue if the administrator had just said "I like PCs
> better" instead of offering lame pseudojustifications for his decision.
"Lame pseudojustifications [sic]?" That's what you call winning awards,
lowering costs, and raising productivity?
Edwin
zolo
As I don't consider myself to be a "Maccie," I'm not interested in what
one would have said back then. How is that relevant to this discussion,
or to my comments?
>
> Also, did you miss the part in the next sentence where they say they still
> have 11 Macs? They don't seem to be impressing anyone to switch back...
I'll bet those Macs are ancient, and probably running system 7 or
something. No wonder no one is impressed...
>
>
>>>
>>>>>Today at Lakewood they count 1,482 PCs and 11 Macs, and word is,
>>>>>friends don't let friends do Macs.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Since we've done it," Zulli said, "our teachers are 100 percent more
>>>>>productive, our students have soared in what they've been able to do.
>>>>>They've won all kind of awards in multimedia presentations in what is
>>>>>supposed to be Apple's domain."
>>>>
>>>>Please demonstrate how switching platforms had anything to do with this
>>>>(versus curriculum changes, emphasis, etc.)
>>>
>>>
>>>The school attibutes the difference to the change to PCs. Argue with
>
> them
>
>>>if you don't believe them.
>>
>>Gladly.
>
>
> When did you start?
>
>>>Then explain why you don't demand such information when similar claims
>
> are
>
>>>made on Apple's behalf...
>>
>>Because it's intuitive. It's a "no brainer."
>
>
> If it favors the PC, you demand proof, but if it favors the Mac, no proof is
> required? Nice hypocricy.
Nice job missing the point, and the quote. Can you point to a thread in
which I have advocated a school switching to all Macs solely based on
warm fuzzy feelings for them?
>
>
>>>
>>>>>Lakewood included teachers in reaching its decision; the district did
>>>>>not. Zulli said democracy doesn't work districtwide.
>>>>>
>>>>>"The worst possible thing to make decisions about technology is to do
>>>>>it by committee," he said. "Technology decisions always should be
>>>>>top-down. It may be unpopular, but it works. You get more for your
>>>>>money, because you're not spending on redundant systems and redundant
>>>>>software."
>>>>
>>>>One person's opinion. The opinions of those who disagree are equally
>>>
>>>valid.
>>>
>>>Yeah, lets forget all those productivity gains, awards, and cost
>
> savings,
>
>>>and swap opinions instead...
>>
>>If there were a control group of teachers who had continued to use
>>Apples and whose results could be compared with those who used PCs,
>
>
> They still have 11 Macs.
See above.
>
>
>>I might be inclined to take that serioulsly.
>
>
> Begin taking it seriously.
Um, no. Not until real proof can be shown to back up the assertion that
PCs were responsible for all of the supposedly wonderful things that
were mentioned.
>
>
>>Absent that, there are too
>>many other variables in the equation to attribute productivity gains or
>>awards to a platform switch.
>
>
> You mean like they stopped being a school and became a cheese factory
> instead?
No, like the importance of computing as defined by the curriculum, the
technical acuity of the teaching staff (whether developed or hired), and
the rising prevalence of technology in the home...
>
>
>>Of course the teachers had nothing to do
>>with it.
>
>
> "The center's teachers heard from Apple, then voted for PCs"
I meant, "of course the quality of the teachers had nothing to do with
it." Do try to keep up.
>
>
>>It couldn't be the curriculum or the quality of the teachers
>>now, could it?
>
>
> How did the switch to PCs make the teachers and the cirriculum better?
What are you, thick? The PCs didn't make the teachers or the curriculum
better. The point was that the quality of the teachers and the focus of
the curriculum potentially had more impact on the quality of the work
than did the choice of computing platform. Does the tool do the job
itself, or does a person use the tool do the job? Don't answer that,
it's rhetorical.
>
>
>>As for the cost savings, where is the proof? Where is
>>the control group to do an A/B comparison? Meaningless.
>
>
> How about how much they paid to be all Mac compared to what they paid to be
> all PC?
Can you point to those figures?
>
> They ought to know the difference in support costs first hand too.
We weren't given a direct comparison of support costs in the article.
Just as we always enjoy your little rants, and your inability to stay away.
>
> As far as my decision to use the PC goes, that went according to my
> pocketbook and what I need for work. No insecurity there. PCs are still
> less expensive, and I'm probably more likely to get hit by a meterite than
> end up with a Mac on my desk at work.
>
>
>>You apparently believe that anyone who chooses a Mac over a
>>PC must automatically be a member of the brainwashed cult of Jobs.
>
>
> Not so. I only believe that about a few people who post here.
I'm at a loss as to why you seem to think that I'm one of them...
>
>
>>It
>>must be too terrible a blow to your psyche to entertain the possibility
>>that some people choose Apple solutions simply because they like them
>>more than PC offerings.
>
>
> Why should it be?
>
> One of the things I have a troulble with is when some people, who pick a
> computer by only personal preference, project that method into others.
Oh, the irony! That's exactly what the administrator did, yet you fault
me for taking issue with it!
>
>
>>I would have far less of a problem with the
>>school district issue if the administrator had just said "I like PCs
>>better" instead of offering lame pseudojustifications for his decision.
>
>
> "Lame pseudojustifications [sic]?" That's what you call winning awards,
> lowering costs, and raising productivity?
OK, how about "pseudo-justifications?" You're on pretty thin ice
criticizing my grammer, spellcheck boy. Let's see, in this response
alone you misspelled "hypocracy," "curriculum," "meteorite," and "trouble."
I've seen no compelling proof presented in this article that TCO was
lowered, nor that PCs were directly responsible for the increase in
productivity.
Nice try, EdLose.
-zolo
zolo
GOD DAMN IT!!! Of all the places to make a typo... That would be
"grammar," and egg all over my face! :)
-zolo
Wade Williams
<thor...@juno.com> wrote:
> Employers want workers who're proficient in Windows and Windows apps, not
> people who'll figure it out by extrapolation from Macs or Linux.
If you're going into a secretarial position, you *might* have a point
with a very small number of employers.
However, MOST employers couldn't give a crap whether you've had Windows
experience or not, because they know if you're relatively proficient on
any computer platform, you'll pick up Windows before you've finished
filling out your new-hire paperwork.
Wade
Wade Williams
R'lyeh <ev5...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That would be comparing traditional Unixes of Solaris and Linux. You
> >know, the ones where you had to say, "to add a disk drive, simply edit
> >/etc/fstab in vi and....".
>
> I see no indication of this in the available summaries for the report.
> What evidence do you have for this bold assertion?
Um, the time period? It's not hard to figure out what Unix systems
they were looking at during that time period.
>
> >
> >The equation is dramatically different for OS X, since it requires zero
> >Unix knowledge on 99% of tasks, and would even be different for Linux
> >today, since Linux's interface and setup have continued to improve.
>
> So you're saying that the Gartner study is as invalid and meaningless
> today as it was when it was released and people used its criteria to
> show that the office coffee pot and restrooms have astronomical TCOs?
> Gotcha!
Wow......either that went right over my head, or you completely missed
the point. I'm honestly not sure which.
Wade
Jim Polaski
So what does Windows do to help a user in Office? Once again you've
missed the point edlost.
Users need training in applications and how to apply them to the tasks
at hand, not the OS per se. While they have to learn to navigate the OS,
windows sure doesn't help them a bit there.
Users need transportable knowledge. That's what schools should be
teaching, not platform. After that, a school's responsibility it to the
platform that is the most cost effective in TCO.That's not windows and
never has been.
Jim Polaski
What about that survey from Microsoft itself along with Interpose? That
was in 1997. Windows lost to Macs by some margin. And Apple had no hand
in that survey. And they were not referencing W 3.1 either. Nothing has
changed so dramatically so as to have dramatically changed those numbers
either.
Edwin
"Jim Polaski" <jpol...@NOync.net> wrote in message
news:jpolaski-391AC1...@netnews.attbi.com...
A six year old study that nobody can find? Irrelevant.
And if you think nothing has significantly changed between 1997 and 2003,
you need to sit down and shut up while computers are being discussed...
Edwin
Edwin
"Jim Polaski" <jpol...@NOync.net> wrote in message
Speaking of missing the point, we were discussing what OS and applications
one needs to know, not the help system of a particular OS.
> Users need training in applications and how to apply them to the tasks
> at hand, not the OS per se.
They have to know Windows as well as Windows apps.
>While they have to learn to navigate the OS,
> windows sure doesn't help them a bit there.
First of all, we were talking about learning Windows and its apps in school.
Second of all, Windows does have a fine Help system.
> Users need transportable knowledge.
Not as long as 90% and more of the market is Windows only...
>That's what schools should be
> teaching, not platform.
Nope. No need to fill people's heads with Unix and Mac stuff that they'll
only forget because they never get to use it. That's a waste of time and
resources.
>After that, a school's responsibility it to the
> platform that is the most cost effective in TCO.That's not windows and
> never has been.
Prove it. Without resorting to anything that's five years old or older.
Edwin
Jim Polaski
"Edwin" <thor...@juno.com> wrote:
Outside of outlook(that wonderful piece of oh well) what "windows apps"
does a user need? Office? IE/Netscape/Mozilla/opera? A newsreader?
Other than a vertical app for a niche market which *any* user Mac,
Windows, linux or otherwise,is going to have to learn, what "Windows
app"?
> >While they have to learn to navigate the OS,
> > windows sure doesn't help them a bit there.
>
> First of all, we were talking about learning Windows and its apps in school.
> Second of all, Windows does have a fine Help system.
So? It's still a layerd, illogical mess.
>
> > Users need transportable knowledge.
>
> Not as long as 90% and more of the market is Windows only...
And since apps drive that, other than niche, vertical apps, what Windows
software is necessary? I suppose you'll say Office?
>
> >That's what schools should be
> > teaching, not platform.
>
> Nope. No need to fill people's heads with Unix and Mac stuff that they'll
> only forget because they never get to use it. That's a waste of time and
> resources.
>
> >After that, a school's responsibility it to the
> > platform that is the most cost effective in TCO.That's not windows and
> > never has been.
>
> Prove it. Without resorting to anything that's five years old or older.
I and others here have. You just don't like the results. Currently, in
the industry there has been no comprehensive TCO study across platforms
in the last 5 years. There is a lot of what you don't like, testimonials
and the posting of data on various systems especially in education. To
keep your yap falpper quiet we'll need a survey. But the Windows world
is not in a hurry for that one. They can't win it on anything other than
pure purchase price of the hardrware, hardly a measure of anything.