Pretty cool...

[Alan Baker]

<http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>

Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.

Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)

PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s

Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.

PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.

Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)

Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
easier use when you turn the machine.

And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0

All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

[Lloyd]

In article <alangbaker-96E83...@news.shawcable.net>,

Alan Baker <alang...@telus.net> wrote:

> <http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>
>
> Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.
>
> Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)
>
> PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s
>
> Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.
>
> PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.
>
> Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
> daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)
>
> Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> easier use when you turn the machine.
>
> And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
>
> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.

While I have no need for the power and flexibility that thing brings to
the table, it sure is a looker! Thanks for posting.

[jay birdsong]

"Lloyd" wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-2A29...@news.eternal-september.org...

Of course, form over function. And on the plus side, you can probably
heat your home with it in the winter.


> Thanks for posting.

He should thank you for replying, he is in dire need of attention.

[Lloyd]

In article <kp5fsj$ma3$1...@dont-email.me>,

Nah, it isn't form over function, it is form that make great
functionality and power look great!

As for heat, well you probably wouldn't want it running in the room you
have your RPT TV running in! :)

>
> > Thanks for posting.
>
> He should thank you for replying, he is in dire need of attention.

No less than you. That's why I responded to you.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp5fsj$ma3$1...@dont-email.me>,
"jay birdsong" <jaybi...@aol.com> wrote:

> "Lloyd" wrote in message
> news:lloydparsons-2A29...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> In article <alangbaker-96E83...@news.shawcable.net>,
> Alan Baker <alang...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> > <http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>
> >
> > Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.
> >
> > Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)
> >
> > PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s
> >
> > Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.
> >
> > PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.
> >
> > Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
> > daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)
> >
> > Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> > easier use when you turn the machine.
> >
> > And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
> >
> > All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>
> >While I have no need for the power and flexibility that thing brings
> >to
> >the table, it sure is a looker!
>
>
> Of course, form over function.

In what way do you feel the form interferes with the function?

> And on the plus side, you can probably
> heat your home with it in the winter.

How does that differ from any equivalently powerful system? Do you think
that the heat produced differs with the form the machine takes?

[jay birdsong]

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
news:alangbaker-71AE8...@news.shawcable.net...

No. Bye.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp5ho8$12l$1...@dont-email.me>,

Were the questions too difficult for you, Michael?

> > > >While I have no need for the power and flexibility that thing brings
> > > >to the table, it sure is a looker!
> > >
> > > Of course, form over function.
> >
> > In what way do you feel the form interferes with the function?
> >
> > > And on the plus side, you can probably
> > > heat your home with it in the winter.
> >
> > How does that differ from any equivalently powerful system? Do you think
> > that the heat produced differs with the form the machine takes?

Well?

Dazzle everyone with your deep technical understanding!

[Alan Baker]

In article
<lloydparsons-2A29...@news.eternal-september.org>,

No worries.

It does look too cool... ...a pity that I have absolutely no use for one.

:-)

[jay birdsong]

"Lloyd" wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-9663...@news.eternal-september.org...

Only if the functionality and power are great to begin with. In
Apples case, I predict problems. Because today, with Apple, it's
"always broke".

>As for heat, well you probably wouldn't want it running in the room
>you
>have your RPT TV running in! :)

:)

And it could double as a hot plate.

>
> > Thanks for posting.
>
> He should thank you for replying, he is in dire need of attention.

>No less than you. That's why I responded to you.

No need. If you didn't, I wouldn't feel "crushed".

[jay birdsong]

"Alan Baker" wrote in message

news:alangbaker-8F040...@news.shawcable.net...

bye.

snip hcds

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp5kum$hfg$1...@dont-email.me>,

In what way are the functionality or power deficient in the case of this
new Mac Pro, Michael?

>
>
> >As for heat, well you probably wouldn't want it running in the room
> >you
> >have your RPT TV running in! :)
>
> :)
>
> And it could double as a hot plate.

In what way could you have a machine of equivalent power that couldn't?

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp5ld7$jpj$1...@dont-email.me>,

So the questions really WERE too tough.

OK.

:-)

[jay birdsong]

"Alan Baker" wrote in message

news:alangbaker-06E23...@news.shawcable.net...

yaaaawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...........bye.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp5s59$gg8$1...@dont-email.me>,

Wow... ...that's an awful lot of work to say you've got nothing.

[Nashton]

If this is anything like the Cube, with connectors in the rear or even
the bottom (who knows), it's just another proprietary Apple product that
will disappoint.
They'll ;probably sell 500 of therm and then EOL them.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp636b$oig$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>
wrote:

Wait... ...let me get this straight. If the connectors are on the back,
it will disappoint?

LOL!

> They'll ;probably sell 500 of therm and then EOL them.

LOL!

[Steve de Mena]

On 6/10/13 12:25 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> <http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>
>
> Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.
>
> Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)
>
> PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s
>
> Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.
>
> PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.
>
> Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
> daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)
>
> Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> easier use when you turn the machine.
>
> And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
>
> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.

Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
than the current Mac Pro.

Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
current Mac Pro?

Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?

One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?

How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
double as DisplayPorts?

Steve

[Alan Baker]

In article <IrudnbQFIPtlDivM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> On 6/10/13 12:25 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> > <http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>
> >
> > Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.
> >
> > Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)
> >
> > PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s
> >
> > Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.
> >
> > PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.
> >
> > Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
> > daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)
> >
> > Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> > easier use when you turn the machine.
> >
> > And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
> >
> > All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>
> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
> than the current Mac Pro.

Hmmm... given that such expansion can be put under the desk, who cares?

>
> Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
> current Mac Pro?

Don't know.

>
> Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?

Given that there is no Xeon E5 with 12 cores, my guess would be dual
CPUs are an option.

>
> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?

You can turn the device. And how often do you want to actually want to
turn the device off from the box itself?

>
> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
> double as DisplayPorts?

Yup. But if you think that means you can use them for one or the other,
but not both at the same time, you're wrong.

[MuahMan]

^ LOL. You've never seen a trash can before?

[MuahMan]

The best part about this ridiculous black trash can computer is that when it breaks in 3 months you can roll it through the mall instead of carry the heavy ass paper weight.

[-hh]

Steve writes:
>
>Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
>expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
>for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
>RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
>than the current Mac Pro.

Yes, it looks likely. The counter-argument will provably be that high end Pros are on beefy networks and don't need much local storage. And now that it *finally* has USB3...blah, blah, blah...nice idea, but it obsoletes the machine a bit faster.

>Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
>current Mac Pro?

Well, the current MP is upgradable - problem has been that video cards to upgrade *to* have been lacking, due to their need for Apple tailored drivers. But there have been a few choices, plus I understand that the driver issue is coming to a OBE end. The bigger question IMO is how adequate is the space claim for a different PCI card if one were to make one? Otherwise, we're back in the same Apple-unique rut all over again. It does look like two PCI slots have been sacrificed to Thunderbolt, and kills the aftermarket for PCI based SSD's...which BTW are already faster I/O than the 500 that Apple claims that their SSD is better than.

>Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?

Probably dual capable - that's why the "fine print" on their performance claims consistently say "Up To" ... and this is also an indicator for what metrics will be not as good in single CPU configurations.

>One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?

Not sure, but it sounds like it is on a lazy Susan to spin/rotate it. The idea works fine for the *first* cable...

>How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt
>ports double as DisplayPorts?

Yes, TB has a Displayport protocol piggybacked "in" it, plus there's an HDMI feed as well. They're touting 3 screens of 4K; not clear yet of how many smaller screens could be driven (or how).

Overall, it kind of sounds like they dropped the two 4x PCI slots, replacing them with TB, and then went "Cloud" for local hard drives and Optical. By filling the remaining slots with good GPUs, they support GCD (even though Adobe is ignoring GCD) and may be 'great' for 2013/2014, the real question is going to be if they continue to support better hardware in 2015, 16, 17...

...and in the meantime, Apple picks up the sale of their SSD card-lette's, probably at steep markups. I doubt that even in Single CPU config if this is going to have a 256GB or bigger SSD *and* be less than $2K. I'd not be surprised to see $2999 base, if for no other reason than there's now also the 'Made in USA' tag and public perception is that it should cost more.


-hh

[Steve de Mena]

On 6/10/13 8:27 PM, Alan Baker wrote:

>> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?
>
> You can turn the device. And how often do you want to actually want to
> turn the device off from the box itself?

Right, try turning it with a dozen cables plugged into it. I'm sure we
all allow enough slack in our cables to easily spin our machines
around 180 degrees.

How often would I actually want to turn the device off from the box
itself? Well, when it locks up and won't restart, mostly.

>>
>> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
>> double as DisplayPorts?
>
> Yup. But if you think that means you can use them for one or the other,
> but not both at the same time, you're wrong.
>

Sounds like there are some odd custom non-upgradeable GPU hocus pocus
going on underneath this machine Of course a year from now there will
be better models and you'll have to buy those to get the new features
as this has no upgrade-ability.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

On 6/11/13 1:46 AM, -hh wrote:
> Steve writes:
>>
>> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
>> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
>> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
>> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
>> than the current Mac Pro.
>
> Yes, it looks likely. The counter-argument will provably be that high end Pros are on beefy networks and don't need much local storage.

Don't most homes have GigE switched "beefy networks"? I do. My NAS
(Synology) even has dual GigE bonded (aggregated) connections to a
Cisco switch. But it's not faster than internal storage, nor does the
OS treat network drives the same way as local drives (for example,
when you delete a file it's deleted forever, and for iTunes you can't
physically move files around to different folders and expect iTunes to
track those changes like you can with local discs).

You wouldn't rather have an updated cheese grater style Mac Pro with
Thunderbolt2 and USB3 ports added?

Will have to wait for more information, such as price, all
configuration options, reviews of fan noise and heat (which is blowing
straight up now...)

Steve

[Sandman]

In article <IrudnbQFIPtlDivM...@giganews.com>,
Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> > Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> > easier use when you turn the machine.
> >
> > And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
> >
> > All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>
> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
> than the current Mac Pro.

Not for me. I don't need PCIe cards. Surely you're not applying criteria
that only apply to some to all Mac Pro users?

> Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
> current Mac Pro?

Yeah, you're "stuck" with 12GB of VRAM that would edit full-resolution
4K video without breaking a sweat. Don't you feel trapped.

> Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?

Only one socket in the images. Only 12 Xeon cores... buhu... :)

> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?

NO? SAY IT ISN'T SO???? THEY WON'T SELL A SINGLE ONE!!! :)

> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
> double as DisplayPorts?

There are six (6) thunderbolt ports on it. Each port can daisy-chain six
devices. That's 36 Thunderbolt devices. Each port pumping 20Gb/s of data
back and forth. No matter what you think about Apple or the Mac, that's
just figures that are out of this world.

It also gives you a HDMI out and four USB3 ports (you know, for the old
slow devices :)

Like Phil Schiller said: "No innovation, my ass". The Mac Pro is a
powerhouse of innovations, from the ingenious thermal core that feeds
air using one single fan to the *MASSIV* I/O this little desktop has.

You can connect three (3) 4K displays to this sucker. THREE. That's 24
*MEGAPIXELS* of resolution, or a desktop that is 11520x2160 in
resolution. From this tiny little desktop.

I'm sorry, but someone not impressed by that is just plain old stupid as
fuck. :)


The only drawback is that the current state of thunderbolt accessories
is far from amazing, but hopefully that will change now that the pro
market will SCREAM for it.




--
Sandman[.net]

[Sandman]

In article <9aadnRiQG6fgcSvM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> >> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?
> >
> > You can turn the device. And how often do you want to actually want to
> > turn the device off from the box itself?
>
> Right, try turning it with a dozen cables plugged into it. I'm sure we
> all allow enough slack in our cables to easily spin our machines
> around 180 degrees.

So, with all those cables attached to your current desktop that doesn't
spin, how do you manage that? Maybe you can resist the urge to spin the
new Mac Pro and employ exactly the same solution you currently use??
Just because you CAN spin it doesn't mean you MUST spin it...

> How often would I actually want to turn the device off from the box
> itself? Well, when it locks up and won't restart, mostly.

I.e. never.

> >> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
> >> double as DisplayPorts?
> >
> > Yup. But if you think that means you can use them for one or the other,
> > but not both at the same time, you're wrong.
>
> Sounds like there are some odd custom non-upgradeable GPU hocus pocus
> going on underneath this machine Of course a year from now there will
> be better models and you'll have to buy those to get the new features
> as this has no upgrade-ability.

Maybe. Can't remember the last time I upgraded the GPU in my Mac Pro
though.




--
Sandman[.net]

[Sandman]

In article <kp636b$oig$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>
wrote:

Ah, nice prediction. Saved to the archives.


--
Sandman[.net]

[Sandman]

In article <alangbaker-7C725...@news.shawcable.net>,

Alan Baker <alang...@telus.net> wrote:

> > If this is anything like the Cube, with connectors in the rear or even
> > the bottom (who knows), it's just another proprietary Apple product that
> > will disappoint.
>
> Wait... ...let me get this straight. If the connectors are on the back,
> it will disappoint?

Yes, desktop computers should all have their connectors on the front in
Nicolas' world :)



--
Sandman[.net]

[-hh]

Steve writes:
>
>Don't most homes have GigE switched "beefy networks"? I do. My NAS
>(Synology) even has dual GigE bonded (aggregated) connections to a
>Cisco switch. But it's not faster than internal storage, nor does the

>OS treat network drives the same way as local drives...

For home networks, I'd expect that the demographics who might buy a Mac Pro have probably bought a GigE switch ... But they don't have a GigE connection to a remote Cloud storage ... and even if they did, it still wouldn't be as fast as a local HDD, nor be as logically as well integrated either. So basically in all cases, it is not going to be as good as the current 'Status Quo', even though the current isn't a SATA3.

>You wouldn't rather have an updated cheese grater style Mac Pro with
>Thunderbolt2 and USB3 ports added?

Sorry, I thought that that was intuitively obvious: for the things I need from my Mac, an upgraded version of the 2012 form factor serves my needs better.

>Will have to wait for more information, such as price, all
>configuration options, reviews of fan noise and heat (which is blowing
>straight up now...)

Agreed. As innovative as the "Chimney Mac" is for fan/noise, with all of the local HDD media just got thrown under the bus bybeing forced into another enclosure (and invariably a 3rd party) the noise level of the SYSTEM will be going up, not down. Frankly, I don't agree with (Alan's?) comment about hiding HDD externals "under the desk", or whatever, as that location will always be dirtier/dustier and prone to kinetic shock from foot kicks, vacuume cleaner hits, etc. the alternative would be rack mount, but that's a whole 'nother level for small users.

-hh

[jay birdsong]

"Alan Baker" wrote in message

news:alangbaker-A75D2...@news.shawcable.net...

In article <kp5s59$gg8$1...@dont-email.me>,
"jay birdsong" <jaybi...@aol.com> wrote:

> "Alan Baker" wrote in message
> news:alangbaker-06E23...@news.shawcable.net...
>
> yaaaawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...........bye.

>Wow... ...that's an awful lot of work to say you've got nothing.

yaaaawnnnnnnnnn............. you even get the last word, Loser.

snip hdcs

[Flint]

Mine too. Connectors on the front? Hell yeah!
-

--
MFB

[Sandman]

In article <kp798b$vcu$1...@dont-email.me>,

Flint <agen...@section-31.net> wrote:

> >>> If this is anything like the Cube, with connectors in the rear or even
> >>> the bottom (who knows), it's just another proprietary Apple product that
> >>> will disappoint.
> >>
> >> Wait... ...let me get this straight. If the connectors are on the back,
> >> it will disappoint?
> >
> > Yes, desktop computers should all have their connectors on the front in
> > Nicolas' world :)
>
> Mine too. Connectors on the front? Hell yeah!

If you only could decide for yourself what direction to put your
computer in. Damn those laws that force you to put the back facing away
from you!

Imagine if you had a computer that had the power button and *all* I/O
and ports on one side, and the computer had a case where there really
was no logical "back" or "front", and what if it even was on a swiveling
foot so you could easily decide for yourself where the ports should be
facing at any time?

Wow, how much wouldn't you spend to get a computer like THAT.


--
Sandman[.net]

[jay birdsong]

"Flint" wrote in message news:kp798b$vcu$1...@dont-email.me...

If you follow the form over function credo, they don't "look good" on
the front, never mind that they are more easily accessed.

These Freaks fail to realize, a computer is only an appliance.

[Laszlo Lebrun]

On 10.06.2013 21:25, Alan Baker wrote:

>
> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>

I fear Apple will get some problems, having slavishly copied Philips'
design:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el84.html
;-)


--
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)

[Alan Baker]

In article <9aadnRiQG6fgcSvM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> On 6/10/13 8:27 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
>
> >> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?
> >
> > You can turn the device. And how often do you want to actually want to
> > turn the device off from the box itself?
>
> Right, try turning it with a dozen cables plugged into it. I'm sure we
> all allow enough slack in our cables to easily spin our machines
> around 180 degrees.

Or try reaching around something... ...only 6.6" deep.

>
> How often would I actually want to turn the device off from the box
> itself? Well, when it locks up and won't restart, mostly.

So hardly ever then.

>
> >>
> >> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
> >> double as DisplayPorts?
> >
> > Yup. But if you think that means you can use them for one or the other,
> > but not both at the same time, you're wrong.
> >
>
> Sounds like there are some odd custom non-upgradeable GPU hocus pocus
> going on underneath this machine Of course a year from now there will
> be better models and you'll have to buy those to get the new features
> as this has no upgrade-ability.

LOL

[Sandman]

In article <kp7e4f$s44$1...@dont-email.me>,

"jay birdsong" <jaybi...@aol.com> wrote:

> > Yes, desktop computers should all have their connectors on the
> > front in Nicolas' world :)
>
> >Mine too. Connectors on the front? Hell yeah!
>
> If you follow the form over function credo, they don't "look good" on
> the front, never mind that they are more easily accessed.
>
> These Freaks fail to realize, a computer is only an appliance.

Yes, and consumers have never shown any interest in having good looking
appliances. Duh

Wannabe troll logic FAIL.


--
Sandman[.net]

[jay birdsong]

"Alan Baker" wrote in message

news:alangbaker-CFF3B...@news.shawcable.net...

In article <9aadnRiQG6fgcSvM...@giganews.com>,
Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> On 6/10/13 8:27 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
>
> >> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and
> >> off?
> >
> > You can turn the device. And how often do you want to actually
> > want to
> > turn the device off from the box itself?
>
> Right, try turning it with a dozen cables plugged into it. I'm sure
> we
> all allow enough slack in our cables to easily spin our machines
> around 180 degrees.

>Or try reaching around something... ...only 6.6" deep.

>
> How often would I actually want to turn the device off from the box
> itself? Well, when it locks up and won't restart, mostly.

>So hardly ever then.

And now a Seer in addition to all your other non-talents.

snip hdcs

[Gary]

On 2013-06-10 19:25:04 +0000, Alan Baker said:

> <http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/>
>
> Up to 12 cores, Xeon E5 processors.
>
> Four channel, DDR3 1866MHz, ECC memory (60GB/s memory bandwidth)
>
> PCIe gen 3 at 40GB/s
>
> Twin AMD FirePro GPUs, able to support up to 3 4K displays.
>
> PCIe-based Flash storage at 2.5 times faster than SATA-based flash.
>
> Up to 36 peripherals at Thunderbolt 2 speeds (6 TB2 ports allowing 6
> daisy-chained devices each at 20Gb/s)
>
> Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> easier use when you turn the machine.
>
> And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
>

> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.

Agreed, the design was a shocker but today i re-looked at this and
decided it's actually genius.

This is now proving that no longer do people have to follow the big
noisysquare box in order to have a powerful pc.

This machine spec wise is a beast and highly customizable.

But the best thig is the space saving size of it, this is a workstation
class machine that can sit on a shelf or on your desk and because their
are no major moving parts in it other than the 1 fan at the top, i bet
this machine is pretty quiet when running.

This has now set the bar for future pc hardware makers. Will be
interesting to see how things unfold.

[Justin]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 18:50:30 -0400, jay birdsong wrote:

>
> No need. If you didn't, I wouldn't feel "crushed".

Is widdle fishie biting at the same stale bait again?

[Nashton]

On 6/11/2013 12:10 PM, Laszlo Lebrun wrote:
> On 10.06.2013 21:25, Alan Baker wrote:
>
>>
>> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>>
>
> I fear Apple will get some problems, having slavishly copied Philips'
> design:
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el84.html
> ;-)
>
>

Quick, -hh, what does this diagram mean?

LOL

[Alan Baker]

In article <kp7qfv$7u6$1...@dont-email.me>,

Yes, Michael, I'm a seer!

And I predict you'll post many, many more inane things!

[Steve de Mena]

On 6/11/13 4:04 AM, Sandman wrote:
> In article <IrudnbQFIPtlDivM...@giganews.com>,
> Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
>>> Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
>>> easier use when you turn the machine.
>>>
>>> And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
>>>
>>> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
>>
>> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
>> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
>> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
>> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
>> than the current Mac Pro.
>
> Not for me. I don't need PCIe cards. Surely you're not applying criteria
> that only apply to some to all Mac Pro users?

Should I only apply criteria that apply to all users? I'm a Pro user
that this machine is targeted for. Audio professionals, especially Pro
Tools users, generally use one or more PCIe slots.

>
>> Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
>> current Mac Pro?
>
> Yeah, you're "stuck" with 12GB of VRAM that would edit full-resolution
> 4K video without breaking a sweat. Don't you feel trapped.

Maybe I don't need that. I do audio. Perhaps I'd like a less
heat-generating and cheaper option, so I have money left over to buy
the external Thunderbolt accessories to actually make this thing work
for me?

>
>> Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?
>
> Only one socket in the images. Only 12 Xeon cores... buhu... :)
>
>> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?
>
> NO? SAY IT ISN'T SO???? THEY WON'T SELL A SINGLE ONE!!! :)
>
>> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
>> double as DisplayPorts?
>
> There are six (6) thunderbolt ports on it. Each port can daisy-chain six
> devices. That's 36 Thunderbolt devices. Each port pumping 20Gb/s of data
> back and forth. No matter what you think about Apple or the Mac, that's
> just figures that are out of this world.

Hope Thunderbolt devices don't peter out and die due to lackluster
acceptance...

>
> It also gives you a HDMI out and four USB3 ports (you know, for the old
> slow devices :)

Wow, four USB ports. I'm impressed I have TWO 10-port USB powered
hubs on my Mac Pro today,

Steve

[Sandman]

In article <PZednT6sYLSdrSXM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> >> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
> >> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
> >> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
> >> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
> >> than the current Mac Pro.
> >
> > Not for me. I don't need PCIe cards. Surely you're not applying criteria
> > that only apply to some to all Mac Pro users?
>
> Should I only apply criteria that apply to all users?

No, but the veracity of a cause and its effects can only be determined
by the scale of users it applies to

> I'm a Pro user that this machine is targeted for. Audio
> professionals, especially Pro Tools users, generally use one or more
> PCIe slots.

So you say, but your credibility isn't really high, especially when you
use the word "generally". If you had kept to "I use", then I would have
said nothing.

> >> Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
> >> current Mac Pro?
> >
> > Yeah, you're "stuck" with 12GB of VRAM that would edit full-resolution
> > 4K video without breaking a sweat. Don't you feel trapped.
>
> Maybe I don't need that. I do audio. Perhaps I'd like a less
> heat-generating and cheaper option, so I have money left over to buy
> the external Thunderbolt accessories to actually make this thing work
> for me?

But then again, who cares about you? You don't even know what it will
cost.

> > It also gives you a HDMI out and four USB3 ports (you know, for the old
> > slow devices :)
>
> Wow, four USB ports. I'm impressed I have TWO 10-port USB powered
> hubs on my Mac Pro today,

Steve likes his slow interfaces, indeed.




--
Sandman[.net]

[Alan Baker]

In article <PZednT6sYLSdrSXM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> On 6/11/13 4:04 AM, Sandman wrote:
> > In article <IrudnbQFIPtlDivM...@giganews.com>,
> > Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Plus 4 USB3, HDMI 1.4, gigabit ethernet, and all ports light up for
> >>> easier use when you turn the machine.
> >>>
> >>> And 802.11ac Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0
> >>>
> >>> All in a 10" high by 6.5" high cylinder.
> >>
> >> Right. What will the dimensions actually be when people add the
> >> expansion they used to be able to put inside. More cables and money
> >> for an ugly Thunderbolt chassis to hold 1-4 PCIe cards, plus one for a
> >> RAID drive system. It will end up taking more physical floor space
> >> than the current Mac Pro.
> >
> > Not for me. I don't need PCIe cards. Surely you're not applying criteria
> > that only apply to some to all Mac Pro users?
>
> Should I only apply criteria that apply to all users? I'm a Pro user
> that this machine is targeted for. Audio professionals, especially Pro
> Tools users, generally use one or more PCIe slots.

"Choice of HD Native Thunderbolt interface or PCIe card
Unlike USB- or FireWire-based DAWs, which are inherently prone to
latency, Pro Tools|HD Native employs either a high-speed Thunderbolt
interface or PCIe core card to connect Pro Tools HD Series interfaces
with your laptop or desktop computer. "

<http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native>

>
> >
> >> Is one stuck with the AMD FirePro GPUs, no way to upgrade like the
> >> current Mac Pro?
> >
> > Yeah, you're "stuck" with 12GB of VRAM that would edit full-resolution
> > 4K video without breaking a sweat. Don't you feel trapped.
>
> Maybe I don't need that. I do audio. Perhaps I'd like a less
> heat-generating and cheaper option, so I have money left over to buy
> the external Thunderbolt accessories to actually make this thing work
> for me?

Just how much heat will it be generating when it's not working hard at
all, Steve?

>
> >
> >> Single Xeon processor? No dual CPU option like today?
> >
> > Only one socket in the images. Only 12 Xeon cores... buhu... :)
> >
> >> One has to reach around to the back to turn the damn thing on and off?
> >
> > NO? SAY IT ISN'T SO???? THEY WON'T SELL A SINGLE ONE!!! :)
> >
> >> How do you connect multiple monitors to it? Do the Thunderbolt ports
> >> double as DisplayPorts?
> >
> > There are six (6) thunderbolt ports on it. Each port can daisy-chain six
> > devices. That's 36 Thunderbolt devices. Each port pumping 20Gb/s of data
> > back and forth. No matter what you think about Apple or the Mac, that's
> > just figures that are out of this world.
>
> Hope Thunderbolt devices don't peter out and die due to lackluster
> acceptance...

<http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo.html>

<http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-io.php>

<http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudiothunderbolt/>

<https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products>

Doesn't seem to be a problem, Steve...

>
> >
> > It also gives you a HDMI out and four USB3 ports (you know, for the old
> > slow devices :)
>
> Wow, four USB ports. I'm impressed I have TWO 10-port USB powered
> hubs on my Mac Pro today,

You have 20 USB devices you need to use simultaneously, do you?

[Steve de Mena]

The Thunderbolt device is brand new. 1% of Pro Tools HD users probably
own it.

It's also NOT sold separately.

I can't go buy the Thunderbolt version of my PCIe card without buying
Pro Tools 11HD *and* and a minimum HD OMNI $3,000 audio interface. So
it's 5-6 THOUSAND dollars to switch from my PCIe card to Thunderbolt.
(If sold separately it would still be a $2,000 cost).

>> Hope Thunderbolt devices don't peter out and die due to lackluster
>> acceptance...
>
> <http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo.html>
>
> <http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-io.php>
>
> <http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudiothunderbolt/>
>
> <https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products>
>
> Doesn't seem to be a problem, Steve...

Wow, four. I bet you could have found another 3-4 too.

LOL

>
>>
>>>
>>> It also gives you a HDMI out and four USB3 ports (you know, for the old
>>> slow devices :)
>>
>> Wow, four USB ports. I'm impressed I have TWO 10-port USB powered
>> hubs on my Mac Pro today,
>
> You have 20 USB devices you need to use simultaneously, do you?

Yes, close to that. Actually 21-22. USB list below. Haven't you
caught on yet I'm not an iPhoto casual user?

Apple Keyboard
Epson Scanner
Dell Monitor 1 USB Hub 1
Dell Monitor 2 USB Hub 2
Card Reader
iPhone 5 charger
iPhone 4 charger base (occasional use only)
iPad Charger
Yamaha MOTIF-RACK XS
Yamaha MOTIF-RACK ES
Roland INTEGRA-7
Roland V-Synth XT
Old Drobo
iLok2 dongle
eLicenser dongle
ad-hoc USB drives (2-3 total) for backups
M-Audio 4-port MIDI interface
MOTU 8-port MIDI interface
Native Instruments Maschine drum machine
Korg M3 Synthesizer
Wacom tablet wireless receiver

Steve

[Sandman]

In article <ZbSdndUAtqYuhSfM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> > "Choice of HD Native Thunderbolt interface or PCIe card
> > Unlike USB- or FireWire-based DAWs, which are inherently prone to
> > latency, Pro Tools|HD Native employs either a high-speed Thunderbolt
> > interface or PCIe core card to connect Pro Tools HD Series interfaces
> > with your laptop or desktop computer. "
> >
> > <http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-HD-native>
>
> The Thunderbolt device is brand new. 1% of Pro Tools HD users probably
> own it.
>
> It's also NOT sold separately.
>
> I can't go buy the Thunderbolt version of my PCIe card without buying
> Pro Tools 11HD *and* and a minimum HD OMNI $3,000 audio interface. So
> it's 5-6 THOUSAND dollars to switch from my PCIe card to Thunderbolt.
> (If sold separately it would still be a $2,000 cost).

Yeah, but - hehe - you're the *only one* in the group that can afford
that anyway, right?? Haha!!!





--
Sandman[.net]

[Steve de Mena]

<crickets>

Typical.

Steve

[Nashton]

Seriously, are you surprised? This goober has no integrity whatsoever.

[ZnU]

In article <PZednT6sYLSdrSXM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

> Should I only apply criteria that apply to all users? I'm a Pro user
> that this machine is targeted for. Audio professionals, especially Pro
> Tools users, generally use one or more PCIe slots.

To a large extent this is merely an 'Apple got rid of the floppy drive
and now I have to buy an external one' sort of situation, however. Given
a year or two, there will likely be native Thunderbolt pro audio
interfaces, etc. A lot of this stuff is already there in the pro video
world, where it seems like Thunderbolt uptake has been faster. In
general, the native Thunderbolt devices are a lot smaller than a PCIe
card in an external TB enclosure, and some of them are also bus powered.

As far as the lack of internal drive bays... maybe that is a bother for
some users, but in pro video individual projects are so large that it
makes more sense to use SAN storage or external RAID boxes than to
rotate projects on and off of internal drives. The machines in our
suites are already SSD-only internally -- system, apps and scratch go
there, everything else is external.

[ZnU]

In article <kp5fsj$ma3$1...@dont-email.me>,
"jay birdsong" <jaybi...@aol.com> wrote:

> Of course, form over function. And on the plus side, you can probably
> heat your home with it in the winter.

This machine is, in fact, a classic example of form *following*
function. There are three main PCBs in it: the motherboard and two
boards hosting the GPUs. The obvious, standard solution here would be to
plug the GPUs into the motherboard at right angles, then put the whole
thing in a some case shaped like a rectangular solid. I'm sure that was
Apple's starting point. But someone, at some point, clearly had the
insight to ask "Why are we arranging three items inside a four sided
case?" That insight would have lead to the idea of arranging the boards
in a triangle around a central heat sink, creating a prism shape.

OK, so why isn't the case prism-shaped? Well, that would result in the
same clearance over all parts of the boards. But some components on the
boards are taller than others. So the machine can be made smaller by
wrapping the central prism-like shape in a cylinder, and then laying out
the boards with taller components toward their centers, where there's
more clearance. The way they've got the power supply running vertically
up the back of the machine is a particularly notable example of this.

The whole thing is really quite clever.

[Sandman]

In article <znu-7F1707.2...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Whoa, welcome back, ZnU. Have you been lurking all these years? :)


--
Sandman[.net]

[Alan Baker]

In article <gOadneJWIMgE6ifM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

Riiiiiight because I didn't get back to you right away...

...because I was attending a friend's birthday party...

..."typical".

LOL

[Sandman]

In article <gOadneJWIMgE6ifM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

What did you expect? You run a drobo off USB? You have three iOS device
chargers where one would suffice?


--
Sandman[.net]

[ZnU]

In article <mr-513DD6.07...@News.Individual.NET>,

Not really. I've mostly been over in the Ars Technica forums.

[Sandman]

In article <znu-F163E7.0...@news.eternal-september.org>,

ZnU <z...@fake.invalid> wrote:

> > > > Should I only apply criteria that apply to all users? I'm a Pro user
> > > > that this machine is targeted for. Audio professionals, especially Pro
> > > > Tools users, generally use one or more PCIe slots.
> > >
> > > To a large extent this is merely an 'Apple got rid of the floppy drive
> > > and now I have to buy an external one' sort of situation, however. Given
> > > a year or two, there will likely be native Thunderbolt pro audio
> > > interfaces, etc. A lot of this stuff is already there in the pro video
> > > world, where it seems like Thunderbolt uptake has been faster. In
> > > general, the native Thunderbolt devices are a lot smaller than a PCIe
> > > card in an external TB enclosure, and some of them are also bus powered.
> > >
> > > As far as the lack of internal drive bays... maybe that is a bother for
> > > some users, but in pro video individual projects are so large that it
> > > makes more sense to use SAN storage or external RAID boxes than to
> > > rotate projects on and off of internal drives. The machines in our
> > > suites are already SSD-only internally -- system, apps and scratch go
> > > there, everything else is external.
> >
> > Whoa, welcome back, ZnU. Have you been lurking all these years? :)
>
> Not really. I've mostly been over in the Ars Technica forums.

I've tried them on for size, but I just can't get comfortable with web
forums. Mostly I think it's because I can't set up filtering and the UI
is different for every single forum, including the way you have to
markup your posts in order to create inks or insert media.


--
Sandman[.net]

[ed]

On Jun 13, 10:15 pm, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> wrote:
> In article <gOadneJWIMgE6ifMnZ2dnUVZ5hudn...@giganews.com>,

Says the guy who was making an issue of me being 'gone' from a thread
after not responding to a post within a little over a half day on a
Saturday? Lol indeed!

[ZnU]

In article <mr-2DD728.07...@News.Individual.NET>,

Yeah, I've yet to see a web forum interface that's as good as even a
halfway decent Usenet client. But, well... the Ars Battlefront and Mac
forums are vastly more active than CSMA or CSMS, and while there are, of
course, lots clueless Apple detractors there, the ratio of substantive
content to content-free trolling is a lot higher than it is here.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kpdvg3$e41$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>
wrote:

Niklas... ...talking about integrity!

LOL

[Sandman]

In article <znu-4664E9.0...@news.eternal-september.org>,

ZnU <z...@fake.invalid> wrote:

> > > > Whoa, welcome back, ZnU. Have you been lurking all these years? :)
> > >
> > > Not really. I've mostly been over in the Ars Technica forums.
> >
> > I've tried them on for size, but I just can't get comfortable with web
> > forums. Mostly I think it's because I can't set up filtering and the UI
> > is different for every single forum, including the way you have to
> > markup your posts in order to create inks or insert media.
>
> Yeah, I've yet to see a web forum interface that's as good as even a
> halfway decent Usenet client. But, well... the Ars Battlefront and Mac
> forums are vastly more active than CSMA or CSMS, and while there are, of
> course, lots clueless Apple detractors there, the ratio of substantive
> content to content-free trolling is a lot higher than it is here.

Yeah, maybe the content outweigh the substantial drop in usability? I'm
unsure...

I'm there now again, lurking. Lots of debate and not too much flat out
idiocy. Maybe I'll give it a go, again :)


--
Sandman[.net]

[Tim Adams]

In article <znu-4664E9.0...@news.eternal-september.org>,
ZnU <z...@fake.invalid> wrote:

Hope you don't regret posting that!

[Alan Baker]

In article <ZbSdndUAtqYuhSfM...@giganews.com>,

How does any of that refute the fact that Pro Tools users no longer need
to use PCIe slots.

And you use all of those SIMULTANEOUSLY, do you? The iPhone 5 charger
(that would be "cable" actually, right), the iPhone 4 charger base and
the iPad charger: you have to have all three of those plugged in at the
same time at all times? And by definition, backup drives aren't in use
at all times... ...unless you're a complete idiot.

And now that you've produced this "impressive" list, show us the
workstation that would give you 20 USB ports. Because, if you can't,
what's the difference if you have 6 or 8 instead of only 4: you still
need hubs, right?

Interesting also, that you don't like the lack of internal expandability
on the new Mac Pro...

...while choosing to use an "Old Drobo".

>
> Steve

[ed]

On Jun 13, 9:32 pm, ZnU <z...@fake.invalid> wrote:
> In article <kp5fsj$ma...@dont-email.me>,

>  "jay birdsong" <jaybirds...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, form over function.  And on the plus side, you can probably
> > heat your home with it in the winter.
>
> This machine is, in fact, a classic example of form *following*
> function.

yep- this machine is obviously very well engineered and there are very
good reasons for the shape. some people are clearly confusing form
over function vs tradeoffs in the functions apple designed to compared
to the functions they expect (primarily internal expandability).

...

[ZnU]

In article
<206fb4a3-29e5-46e1...@e13g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>,

Yeah, the reason this machine doesn't have internal expandability isn't
because Apple wanted to make it small. Apple has had an extremely
ambivalent relationship with internal expandability for, well, about 30
years now, going all the way back to the original Mac. They've offered
it when they wanted to be present in markets where there was no
plausible alternative, but that's about it. With Thunderbolt 2 and dual
on-board GPU options, they now believe there is a plausible alternative
for the Mac Pro's user base.

[ed]

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:07:27 PM UTC-7, Gary wrote:
...
> This is now proving that no longer do people have to follow the big
> noisysquare box in order to have a powerful pc.

this was never something that needed to be 'proven' - it's been plenty evident. the primary reason for a big square box is internal expandability, and apple has essentially said, yeah, we don't think that's a big deal.

...

[Sandman]

In article <56fc85cd-6d56-42d1...@googlegroups.com>,

Well, at least they're not saying that expandability isn't a big deal...


--
Sandman[.net]

[Flint]

True. Frankly, this new design makes perfect sense (if only from
Apple's POV, at the moment), and I see nothing wrong with the design
metrics. I suspect that in a year or two, the PC market will follow
suit in some form or another. In some respects, things like Intel's
NUC and Gigabyte's BRIX units have already started down a similar
path. I suspect this new Mac might finally spur some PC vendors to
take thunderbolt/thunderbolt2 more seriously.

--
MFB

[Nashton]

On 6/14/2013 3:09 AM, ZnU wrote:
> In article <mr-2DD728.07...@News.Individual.NET>,
> Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>

>>>>> As far as the lack of internal drive bays... maybe that is a bother for
>>>>> some users, but in pro video individual projects are so large that it
>>>>> makes more sense to use SAN storage or external RAID boxes than to
>>>>> rotate projects on and off of internal drives. The machines in our
>>>>> suites are already SSD-only internally -- system, apps and scratch go
>>>>> there, everything else is external.
>>>>
>>>> Whoa, welcome back, ZnU. Have you been lurking all these years? :)
>>>
>>> Not really. I've mostly been over in the Ars Technica forums.
>>
>> I've tried them on for size, but I just can't get comfortable with web
>> forums. Mostly I think it's because I can't set up filtering and the UI
>> is different for every single forum, including the way you have to
>> markup your posts in order to create inks or insert media.

I'm on several web based forums and that's never been an issue for me.

[Sandman]

In article <kpggc1$v7t$4...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>

wrote:

> >>>>> As far as the lack of internal drive bays... maybe that is a bother for
> >>>>> some users, but in pro video individual projects are so large that it
> >>>>> makes more sense to use SAN storage or external RAID boxes than to
> >>>>> rotate projects on and off of internal drives. The machines in our
> >>>>> suites are already SSD-only internally -- system, apps and scratch go
> >>>>> there, everything else is external.
> >>>>
> >>>> Whoa, welcome back, ZnU. Have you been lurking all these years? :)
> >>>
> >>> Not really. I've mostly been over in the Ars Technica forums.
> >>
> >> I've tried them on for size, but I just can't get comfortable with web
> >> forums. Mostly I think it's because I can't set up filtering and the UI
> >> is different for every single forum, including the way you have to
> >> markup your posts in order to create inks or insert media.
>
> I'm on several web based forums and that's never been an issue for me.

But then again, you're a very simple user with very very very basic
needs. You can't even follow a thread properly on usenet, and webbased
forums should fit you just fine.

USENET is a bit too complicated for you.

--
Sandman[.net]

[MuahMan]

AIDS treatment center. He's a faggot like your son.

[Steve de Mena]

How do we connect a second CPU to this system?

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

You just expect us to chuck our current multi-thousand dollar cards
and buy it all new? Plus the UAD Quad PCIe card I have is only
available in a lower-performance FW800 version, UAD does not have a
Thunderbolt card yet.

I have the Quad card:
http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins/uad-2-pcie.html

The UAD-2 Satellite (Firewire) has performance limitations compared to
the PCIe version I currently own.
See 3rd note from the bottom at:
http://www.uaudio.com/support/uad/compatibility/instance-chart.html

The Avid Pro Tools system I have now (PCIe card plus HD I/O plus Pro
Toold 10 HD) would have to be replaced by this $5,000 item:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HDX0M-TBIO/

Bottom line, you know nothing about Pro Tools so why are you
discussing it? Does anyone here run a Pro Tools HD system?

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

What about lack of dual CPU capability?

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Are you going to buy a new Mac Pro, and if so, what would you use it for?

Steve

[Alan Baker]

In article <Hq6dnZbpS5Uae1vM...@giganews.com>,

I don't expect YOU to do anything, Steve...

>
> I have the Quad card:
> http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins/uad-2-pcie.html
>
> The UAD-2 Satellite (Firewire) has performance limitations compared to
> the PCIe version I currently own.
> See 3rd note from the bottom at:
> http://www.uaudio.com/support/uad/compatibility/instance-chart.html
>
> The Avid Pro Tools system I have now (PCIe card plus HD I/O plus Pro
> Toold 10 HD) would have to be replaced by this $5,000 item:
> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HDX0M-TBIO/
>
> Bottom line, you know nothing about Pro Tools so why are you
> discussing it? Does anyone here run a Pro Tools HD system?

Again, your claim was that audio users "generally" use PCIe cards, but
there are clearly now options where they don't have to.

[Alan Baker]

In article <Hq6dnZHpS5Vwe1vM...@giganews.com>,

What about it?

[Alan Baker]

In article <_ZGdnSo5ybwSeVvM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

Is the second CPU important in and of itself...

...or is it the performance one gets in total?

[Alan Baker]

In article <Hq6dnZDpS5WzelvM...@giganews.com>,

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:

I might.

It depends whether or not I find the performance of SolidWorks on my
MacBook Pro running under Parallels adequate to my purposes.

[Tim Adams]

In article <alangbaker-CF2B2...@news.shawcable.net>,

Perhaps you just buy a Mac Pro configured with 2 CPU's to begin with.

[ed]

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:32:58 PM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
...

> > Are you going to buy a new Mac Pro, and if so, what would you use it for?
> > Steve
>
> I might.
>
> It depends whether or not I find the performance of SolidWorks on my
> MacBook Pro running under Parallels adequate to my purposes.

1- did solidworks never release their announced os x version?
2- why not run one of the mac cad packages that have been trumpeted on here as being high end? ;D

[Nashton]

Now bakr is in to 3d? What kind of the 3D, I'd like to know.

And this is another perfect example of how the Mac needs Windows to be
whole, so to speak.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kq9tva$atg$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.ca>
wrote:

> On 06-24-13 12:40 PM, ed wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:32:58 PM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
> > ...
> >>> Are you going to buy a new Mac Pro, and if so, what would you use it for?
> >>> Steve
> >>
> >> I might.
> >>
> >> It depends whether or not I find the performance of SolidWorks on my
> >> MacBook Pro running under Parallels adequate to my purposes.
> >
> > 1- did solidworks never release their announced os x version?
> > 2- why not run one of the mac cad packages that have been trumpeted on here
> > as being high end? ;D
> >
>
> Now bakr is in to 3d? What kind of the 3D, I'd like to know.

The plan is to do stuff for my own projects and make it pay by doing
architectural drawings for general contractors (not actual design, mind,
just the drawings).

>
> And this is another perfect example of how the Mac needs Windows to be
> whole, so to speak.

Not really. I could choose to use AutoCAD. But I've tried SolidWorks and
I like the interface.

BTW, the fact that AutoCAD has been released once again for the Mac
platform probably says something that you're not willing to admit.

:-)

[ed]

On Monday, June 24, 2013 10:16:25 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
...

> The plan is to do stuff for my own projects and make it pay by doing
> architectural drawings for general contractors (not actual design, mind,
> just the drawings).

i don't know if it's changed in the last few years, but solidworks was not real solid (ha!) for architectural drawings a few years back- a lack of architectural symbols and the like. you can download them (or create them yourself), but it wasn't really designed for architecture and it wasn't a strength.

all that said, you have my curiosity piqued- is there a market for this type of work? why wouldn't whoever is doing the design do the drawings?


...

[Alan Baker]

In article <f9ebec4c-f8bf-451c...@googlegroups.com>,

They will, but it's a bit like the law business: you need the exorbitant
rate for the actual legal expertise, but they bite you with that same
high rate for EVERYTHING.

The reason I'm now trying to do this is that my girlfriend's general
contractor related to her what it had cost him to get construction
drawings done after the design was completed.

If I can do a creditable job using SketchUp Pro and LayOut (which I
already have done), then I'm pretty sure I can work out the necessary to
do it in SolidWorks.

[Nashton]

RAW photo editing with LR and CS. Huge RAW files to crunch through.
OTOH, I can build my own PC for a fraction of what this cylindrical
iteration of the Apple Cube will cost.

And a comment for Flint: That's a big "if." It remains to be seen if TB
will catch on or whether it will remain out of the sphere of the power
user/pro just as SCSI is for servers.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kqa0ed$ik0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.ca>
wrote:

Yeah... ...because the high-end Thunderbolt devices that are now coming
out are a clear sign that it's going to die off....

<http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/universalvideohub/>

<http://www.motu.com/video-products/hdx-sdi-thunderbolt>

<http://www.aja.com/en/products/io-xt/#overview>

<http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo.html>

<http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/namm-2012.php>

<http://www.avid.com/US/press-room/PTNative-Thunderbolt>

[Nashton]

On 06-24-13 2:31 PM, ed wrote:
> On Monday, June 24, 2013 10:16:25 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
> ...
>> The plan is to do stuff for my own projects and make it pay by doing
>> architectural drawings for general contractors (not actual design, mind,
>> just the drawings).
>
> i don't know if it's changed in the last few years, but solidworks was

> not real solid (ha!) for architectural drawings a few years back- a lack

> of architectural symbols and the like. you can download them (or create

> them yourself), but it wasn't really designed for architecture and it

> wasn't a strength.

It's merely for computer assisted design. And from what I know,
architectural design is not what it is primarily for. It is used for
product design and is an integral part of their manufacturing process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolidWorks

>
> all that said, you have my curiosity piqued- is there a market for this

> type of work? why wouldn't whoever is doing the design do the drawings?
>
>
> ...
>

Definitely. See above.
I had used strata few years ago for models and artwork. Then I migrated
to 3dsmax which was more comprehensive for modeling.

[J. Bird Song]

"Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:alangbaker-0AD29...@news.shawcable.net...

On a serious note:

On a structural redo or addition, an architect is needed and they draw the
plans which are submitted to a building inspector. It's not a simple matter
of "I think we can throw a 2 x 4 in here" as I'm sure you're aware of.

On a simple interior upgrade, Kitchen / bathroom, usually this stuff is laid
out with dedicated CAD software - like at Lowes or Home depot or high end
cabinet operations. And that works great.

On a complex interior structural redo, moving load bearing walls etc.,
again, an architect is needed, who supplies the prints etc.

What is the concept here? Is Joe the handyman going to hand you a sketch
for you to draw out? If so why? He should know where he's going.

Do you have draftsman experience in addition to the software experience.

Do you think your GF's "contractor" is blowing smoke? It's always great to
explain away high costs to customers who are ignorant, by blaming the high
cost of materials, labor and services..

As I said; on a serious note.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kqa7ln$958$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.ca>
wrote:

But it isn't the modeling that I'd be doing, Nicolas, and what
SolidWorks is VERY good at is producing drawings.

Plus it has capabilities that are appropriate for my own desire to
design parts for my race car and for other personal projects.

[gaztro...@googlemail.com]

Your referring to price Nashton, you have to pay a bit more for quality bud.

When will you learn, you own macs so you should understand by now. YES, you can build a pc if you want but you only do that if you don't care about the outcome.

Were talking about an innovation in design and power, not another square box on the floor with 4 fans in to keep it cool cause it gets too hot trying to play COD.

Internal storage is a thing of the past, The Mac Pro has 1 Fan to keep it cool and the external storage can breathe as it's not trapped in an enclosed space.

The computer industry is in for a change because Apple is forcing it to. Putting powerful sexy machines in the market is a lot more appealing than the legacy design from yesteryear.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kqa84d$7mv$1...@dont-email.me>,

And charges for it... ...a lot more than is necessary.

>
> What is the concept here? Is Joe the handyman going to hand you a sketch
> for you to draw out? If so why? He should know where he's going.

The concept is for an architect to design the house and provide a 3D
model (in most cases), from which I would produce construction drawings.

>
> Do you have draftsman experience in addition to the software experience.

Not all that much experience, no. But an experienced contractor has
given me his seal of approval (as it were) for the work I've done and
for my attention to detail.

It's the fact that he often has to pay a lot of money for what he feels
I'm already capable of doing that has driven me to consider this.

>
> Do you think your GF's "contractor" is blowing smoke? It's always great to
> explain away high costs to customers who are ignorant, by blaming the high
> cost of materials, labor and services..

Nope.

>
> As I said; on a serious note.

Thanks, Michael. It's good to see you can make a reasonable and civil
post.

I am aware of the necessity for the involvement of licensed architects
and structural engineers for various parts of the design process. I've
just gone through this exact thing assisting my girlfriend on the design
and approval of her own house. My brother did the initial design
concept, an architectural firm known to her preferred contractor
reviewed the design and with the assistance of the correct engineering
resources, structured it...

...but the drawings they produced were terrible; riddle with simple
errors...

...such as the house suddenly changing width by a half inch from front
to back...

...such as the foundation wall structure being completely misplaced,
such as no consideration given at all to the fact that the basement is a
living space and there needed to be better routing of the HVAC systems
to maximize headroom where the people were going to be).

What it boils down to in this case is that the architect did the big
picture work and it's fine, but when he handed off the drawing work to a
junior in his firm, it was terrible... ...but they still wanted to
charge as if the work was quality.

Even if the source is 2D drawings for permit, as long as the dimensions
are appropriately given, I know I can do a good job of translating them
into the drawings necessary for construction. And I can do so for a rate
that makes me good money while offering the contractors a better price
than architectural firms seem to want to charge for the grunt work.

And simply, I like the work. I'll freely admit, I have a hard time
creating from a blank sheet of paper--that's just not a strong suit with
me, but given a work that already exists, I'm a really good editor. I
can see how a design can be improved, tightened, made more efficient,
etc.

So I can do work I like, that I'm good at, that I can charge good money
for.

Why wouldn't I do it?

:-)

[J. Bird Song]

"Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message

news:alangbaker-B7CE0...@news.shawcable.net...

Sounds like it could be interesting.

[Alan Baker]

In article <kqadps$9dn$1...@dont-email.me>,

That's what I'm hoping.

And the best part is that unlike the support work I'm doing, there's no
reason I can't do this while traveling. In a perfect world, a year or
two from now I could be set up with a nice class A RV towing a double
stack trailer (for my race car and the Miata), and paying for my fun
with my work doing construction drawings for contractors and so forth
(combined with the income from my investments).

Not a bad way to "retire", I think.

[-hh]

On a serious note, a lot of residential-based architecture is "plug n chug" for its structural requirements from the Uniform Building Code.

Granted, this doesn't address harder stuff or many renovation based changes in structure, but that's also where it makes sense to focus the expert's time/attention on the important/unusual stuff that can't be found on a look-up table, such as how many ganged 2x10s are needed to replace a doubled 2x12 for a span.

And an architect for a bathroom or kitchen? Cabinet boxes aren't hard IMO...Thats why Home Depot will offer to do it. Maybe if there's something unusual about the space such that you want an old hand who knows more tricks.

In any case, if the software's basically just for design, then the dialog with the architect becomes easier for him too: they know exactly what is wanted and what he is to work within to make it work.

-hh

[-hh]

[Sandman]

In article <kqa0ed$ik0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.ca>
wrote:

> > Are you going to buy a new Mac Pro, and if so, what would you use it for?
>

> RAW photo editing with LR and CS. Huge RAW files to crunch through.

Any examples? My Macbook Air chews through 36MP (Nikon D800) RAW files
like a hot knife through butter.

> OTOH, I can build my own PC for a fraction of what this cylindrical
> iteration of the Apple Cube will cost.

What will this "Apple Cube" cost, now again?



--
Sandman[.net]

[Nashton]

He's pretty reasonable in all his posts. In fact, he's a paragon of
patience when it comes to dealing with the likes of you as an
interlocutor, given your incessant lies and your bombastic
pontifications, bakr.

>> I am aware of the necessity for the involvement of licensed architects
>> and structural engineers for various parts of the design process. I've
>> just gone through this exact thing assisting my girlfriend on the design
>> and approval of her own house.

You probably meant to say "the necessity of the involvement", but given
your lexicological ineptitude that is the direct result of your level of
education, we'll let it pass.
One cannot feign education, remember that.

> My brother did the initial design
>> concept, an architectural firm known to her preferred contractor
>> reviewed the design and with the assistance of the correct engineering
>> resources, structured it...

Well, that was kind of you to provide some work to your brother.

>>
>> ...but the drawings they produced were terrible; riddle with simple
>> errors...

And you would know this how, exactly? Are you an architect? An engineer?
An industrial/civic designer?
I personally believe that your Dunning-Kruger kicked in and knowing what
a windbag/wiseacre you are, as demonstrated by the Lincoln Long Shit you
lay in here on a daily basis, you wanted to impress your "GF" (the one
that doesn't want to live with you) and take matters into your own
hands, so to speak.

>>
>> ...such as the house suddenly changing width by a half inch from front
>> to back...

Oh dear, the world is coming to an end.

>>
>> ...such as the foundation wall structure being completely misplaced,

Misplaced how exactly?

>> such as no consideration given at all to the fact that the basement is a
>> living space and there needed to be better routing of the HVAC systems
>> to maximize headroom where the people were going to be).

So, were the ceilings too low?

>>
>> What it boils down to in this case is that the architect did the big
>> picture work and it's fine, but when he handed off the drawing work to a
>> junior in his firm, it was terrible... ...but they still wanted to
>> charge as if the work was quality.

They still did the work. And who are you to judge it? what is your
expertise in the field and how does an iPad repairman suddenly know
about the intricacies of designing a home to the last detail?

>>
>> Even if the source is 2D drawings for permit, as long as the dimensions
>> are appropriately given, I know I can do a good job of translating them
>> into the drawings necessary for construction. And I can do so for a rate
>> that makes me good money while offering the contractors a better price
>> than architectural firms seem to want to charge for the grunt work.

So are you actually charging your girlfriend for this imaginary work?

Whoa!

>>
>> And simply, I like the work. I'll freely admit, I have a hard time
>> creating from a blank sheet of paper--that's just not a strong suit with
>> me, but given a work that already exists, I'm a really good editor. I
>> can see how a design can be improved, tightened, made more efficient,
>> etc.

I hope the architectural firm sues you for payment of the work done.

>>
>> So I can do work I like, that I'm good at, that I can charge good money
>> for.
>>
>> Why wouldn't I do it?

There will always be suckers willing to pay, for sure.

>
> Sounds like it could be interesting.

Yeah, maybe his gf will meet up with him more often at Tim Horton's for
a donut and coffee more often.

But seriously, can anyone be more full of unadulterated shit as bakr?


>
>

[Nashton]

On 6/14/2013 5:56 PM, ZnU wrote:
> In article

> <206fb4a3-29e5-46e1...@e13g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>,

> ed <ne...@atwistedweb.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 13, 9:32 pm, ZnU <z...@fake.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <kp5fsj$ma...@dont-email.me>,
>>> "jay birdsong" <jaybirds...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, form over function. And on the plus side, you can probably
>>>> heat your home with it in the winter.
>>>
>>> This machine is, in fact, a classic example of form *following*
>>> function.
>>
>> yep- this machine is obviously very well engineered and there are very
>> good reasons for the shape. some people are clearly confusing form
>> over function vs tradeoffs in the functions apple designed to compared
>> to the functions they expect (primarily internal expandability).
>
> Yeah, the reason this machine doesn't have internal expandability isn't
> because Apple wanted to make it small.

Really?

> Apple has had an extremely
> ambivalent relationship with internal expandability for, well, about 30
> years now, going all the way back to the original Mac.

You mean to say that Apple wasn't able to make towers with as many slots
as Wintel. Apple wasn't willing to give it's loyal customer base what it
wanted. <Insert insanely great reason here>.

> They've offered
> it when they wanted to be present in markets where there was no
> plausible alternative, but that's about it. With Thunderbolt 2 and dual
> on-board GPU options, they now believe there is a plausible alternative
> for the Mac Pro's user base.

This is a design failure. The only reason people will buy this is
because they have significant software investment in the platform.
When they find out the Mac Pro will cost them an arm and a leg and
probably render a big chunk of their hardware obsolete, they will be
most certainly pondering on whether to switch for dedicated PCs.


>

[Sandman]

In article <kqbu57$jg6$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>
wrote:

> >>> As I said; on a serious note.
> >>
> >> Thanks, Michael. It's good to see you can make a reasonable and civil
> >> post.
>
> He's pretty reasonable in all his posts.

Hahahahahahahahahhahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahhahaha!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--
Sandman[.net]

[Alan Baker]

In article <kqbu57$jg6$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Nashton <na...@na.com>
wrote:

Oh my god, please....

>
>
> >> I am aware of the necessity for the involvement of licensed architects
> >> and structural engineers for various parts of the design process. I've
> >> just gone through this exact thing assisting my girlfriend on the design
> >> and approval of her own house.
>
> You probably meant to say "the necessity of the involvement", but given
> your lexicological ineptitude that is the direct result of your level of
> education, we'll let it pass.
> One cannot feign education, remember that.

LOL

>
> > My brother did the initial design
> >> concept, an architectural firm known to her preferred contractor
> >> reviewed the design and with the assistance of the correct engineering
> >> resources, structured it...
>
> Well, that was kind of you to provide some work to your brother.

He had the talent... ...and my girlfriend saw it.

>
> >>
> >> ...but the drawings they produced were terrible; riddle with simple
> >> errors...
>
> And you would know this how, exactly? Are you an architect? An engineer?
> An industrial/civic designer?

The general contractor saw them as well.

> I personally believe that your Dunning-Kruger kicked in and knowing what
> a windbag/wiseacre you are, as demonstrated by the Lincoln Long Shit you
> lay in here on a daily basis, you wanted to impress your "GF" (the one
> that doesn't want to live with you) and take matters into your own
> hands, so to speak.

Nope. Getting involved wasn't my idea, actually.

>
> >>
> >> ...such as the house suddenly changing width by a half inch from front
> >> to back...
>
> Oh dear, the world is coming to an end.

No. But when the house's main structure is a rectangle, it does show a
certain lack of attention to detail.

>
> >>
> >> ...such as the foundation wall structure being completely misplaced,
>
> Misplaced how exactly?

1. It was 2" wider than code and the loads involved required.

2. It use'd an ICF form at the top designed to carry a brick veneer, but
the veneer begins at the ground level, not at the level of the main
floor, and the placement of the wall in relation to the ground floor was
such that the ledge pushed the entire wall in another 2". The end result
is a basement that is 4" narrower on each side than it needs to be;
significantly reducing the useable floor space.

>
> >> such as no consideration given at all to the fact that the basement is a
> >> living space and there needed to be better routing of the HVAC systems
> >> to maximize headroom where the people were going to be).
>
> So, were the ceilings too low?

The ceilings were as high as both the zoning requirement of a main floor
no more than 1.5 metres above the altitude of the centre of the street
on the centre of the lot line, and the water table allowed. This gave a
7'9" ceiling height. But when the HVAC contractor started putting trunk
runs in the downstairs living space, that was reduced to less than 7'
unnecessarily over more area than was required. I redesigned the layout
of the system so that the majority of the trunks is "disappeared" into
closet spaces or positioned over doorways and by carrying beams where
the head height is expected to be lower anyway.

>
> >>
> >> What it boils down to in this case is that the architect did the big
> >> picture work and it's fine, but when he handed off the drawing work to a
> >> junior in his firm, it was terrible... ...but they still wanted to
> >> charge as if the work was quality.
>
> They still did the work. And who are you to judge it? what is your
> expertise in the field and how does an iPad repairman suddenly know
> about the intricacies of designing a home to the last detail?

The general contractor judged it, too. He agreed with my conclusions.

>
> >>
> >> Even if the source is 2D drawings for permit, as long as the dimensions
> >> are appropriately given, I know I can do a good job of translating them
> >> into the drawings necessary for construction. And I can do so for a rate
> >> that makes me good money while offering the contractors a better price
> >> than architectural firms seem to want to charge for the grunt work.
>
> So are you actually charging your girlfriend for this imaginary work?

Nope. But I will be charging this contractor and hopefully others for
future work.

>
> Whoa!
>
> >>
> >> And simply, I like the work. I'll freely admit, I have a hard time
> >> creating from a blank sheet of paper--that's just not a strong suit with
> >> me, but given a work that already exists, I'm a really good editor. I
> >> can see how a design can be improved, tightened, made more efficient,
> >> etc.
>
> I hope the architectural firm sues you for payment of the work done.

Actually, it may be my GF or her general contractor who sues them.

>
> >>
> >> So I can do work I like, that I'm good at, that I can charge good money
> >> for.
> >>
> >> Why wouldn't I do it?
>
> There will always be suckers willing to pay, for sure.
>
> >
> > Sounds like it could be interesting.
>
> Yeah, maybe his gf will meet up with him more often at Tim Horton's for
> a donut and coffee more often.
>
> But seriously, can anyone be more full of unadulterated shit as bakr?

LOL

The sad fact is that you come in here with the long, ill-informed
diatribe, replying to me, but you've actually got me in your killfile,
which make your address to me in the second person quite funny. And in
your vitriol and envy at someone who has more talents than yourself,
what you miss is that I have once again told the simple truth.

My girlfriend has the means to have a new house put up on her oversize
lot in an area of Toronto where she very much likes to live and where
its proximity to the subway station at the end of the line has raised
the value of houses in the area; making it a very safe bet for her to
get out everything she puts in plus a nice profit. My brother is a very
talented designer and builder; albeit without the credentials to get the
design permitted and without the scale of operation to take on the
actual building.

So he did the designs in SketchUp, I got involved in the designs because
I'm very good with using the software, and when my GF found a general
contractor, he recommended an architectural firm that he'd used
previously to help shepherd the house through the permitting process. I
delivered a complete model of the house--foundation layout, interior and
exterior walls, doors, windows, roof designs... ...the whole shmear--on
November 8. They made a couple of changes that they suggested to the
second floor plan (opening up the hallway at the top of the stairs and
adding a laundry room)...

...and it took them six MONTHS to deliver the final plans for permit.

A huge part of that long delay, was having to get them to correct the
errors that one of their (apparently) junior staffers was making. Things
like exterior walls which were placed completely wrong--wrong to the
point of it obviously making no sense whatsoever. And yes, I caught many
of those errors, and had my observations confirmed by the general
contractor.

Am I an expert in these things? Far from it, and I never claimed to be.
But what I do know is that despite my admitted (to him) lack of
expertise, the general contractor still trusts me more than the
architectural firm involved to be the one to produce construction
drawings.

These--as always--are just the facts.

[gaztro...@googlemail.com]

Nashton,

nice piece there to try and get a response.

Id expect you to be the first in line to pick one of these up, you have apparently owned every other MAC so don't expect you to change now.

Let me know your opinion once you have given it a test run.

[Nashton]

Not in a million years.
Not even curious as I can just imagine the amount of spaghetti alone
exiting this thing.
There is simply no compelling reason to own an overpriced Apple brain
fart when I can do everything I want to do cheaper and faster.