awe32 vs. sb32
Zyxt
I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but what, exactly, are the
differences betweent these two soundcards? I'm not interested in the value
editions. I want the use of extra SIMM slots. I'm not going to use a
daughterboard. I'd like the card to have reverb and chorus (and maybe more).
So, essentially, I'd like to know what things one card can do that the other
card can't, as well as what they both can do. I've been to Creative Labs web
site, and read the info on both cards, and they look to be almost identicle
aside from the sb32 not having a daughterboard connector (which doesn't matter
to me).
Please email me if you have any info. Thanks!
---------------------------------------------
Joe zy...@ix.netcom.com
"...thy micturations are to me/As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee."
-Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
John Brand
Zyxt <zy...@ix.netcom.com> Wrote:
>>No No No, The SB32 has no RAM to store extra samples! None, and cannot
>>upgrade either (even if they made a daugther board) because there is no
>>DB connector. The AWE hasnt got the world's most wanted patch set,
>>so....
>
>i did some research, and it turns out you are correct in saying the sb32 has
>no ram included, but it does have simm slots just like the awe32 (which has
>512k built in). since i would be adding at least 4megs of simms right when
>i get the card, the included ram on the awe would make no difference to me
>(it is disabled as soon as you add your own simms, so it's as good as gone
>to me). as far as the daughterboard, i don't think i'll ever use one. i
>haven't been impressed with any soundcard's basic wavetable samples yet, and
>only a couple daughterboards were good (the rolands and the korg). (since i
>own a roland sc55 external sound module and a couple of roland keyboards,
>i'm sort of spoiled as far as sample quality. :)
>
>>What's your main aim in life with the sound card? If its music
>>composition, you shouldn't be looking at a COMPATIBLE card as such,
>>rather get one that'll work (let's assume) Windows to compose, create
>>patch banks and load them into the card.
>
> i'm extremely interested in compatibility with all my old games and new
>ones plus wavetable capabilities. i currently own an sbpro and a GUS (as
>well as the roland mentioned above). I'm looking to exchange the sbpro for
>an awe32 or sb32, since both of the latter cards retain the 100%
>soundblaster compatibility i need, they'll have the ability to record 16bit
>samples (which neither the sbpro or gus can do), and they'll have the
>ability to play back 16bit samples from wavetable memory as instruments in
>the composing i do. although the gus can do this (play 16bit samples as
>wavetable), it is limited to 1meg of ram and cannot _record_ 16bit (only
>play it :). many other cards can do the wavetable also, but they lose out
>in the ram expandability and the compatibility issues.
> that's why i'm interested in the awe32 or the sb32. i was pretty much
>just wondering what the difference between the two are. the tropez is a
>great card for some uses (we use one at work), but it doesn't hold up as far
>as ram expandability and 100% compatibility with SB.
> anyway, i've bent your ear enough for one email. :) Thanks for replying!
Ok, Ok, Ok. I am aware that there have been so many releases of SB32,
SB32AWE, SB32Value, Plug and Play and not, with or without
daughterboards, that I have lost completely the track of how many
'editions' of SB there are lately. (What on earth is on a phoneblaster,
just a SB16?)
Maybe the LATEST versions of SB32 comes with slots for EXTRA RAM, as far
as I have seen at my local SB branch, that was NOT the case. They
'forgot' to mention this NON-upgrability at all on the box. It means
that Soundfonts were NOT compatible. That maybe a good way of checking
if it can use RAM Patches, look for the SoundFont Symbol on the box,
possibly with the word UPGRADABLE by plugging in SIMMs.
Let me know!
HOWEVER!!!! I still Recommend Tropez Plus.....
- It is 100% compatible for SB and SBPro (NOT SB16, only SB16 and SB32
are!!)
- It is 100% WSS (16-bit) compatible (most games have this option, even
older ones to produce 16-bit quality)
- The Tropez can have 12 Megs of patches (other that the BUILT-IN 4 Megs
GM Patch set) and ther AWE up to 28, but you have to plug in 32Megs
(16megs SIMMs x 2, very expensive) and it can only use 28 of it, a
WASTED 6 Megs. That's NOT value for money!!!!!! The Tropez Plus does not
waste ANY memory in this way
http://www.tbeach.com/
--
John Brand
email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
"A dim light brightens..."
My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
John Brand
No No No, The SB32 has no RAM to store extra samples! None, and cannot
upgrade either (even if they made a daugther board) because there is no
DB connector. The AWE hasnt got the world's most wanted patch set,
so....
Try the Tropez Plus:
Its SB and SB Pro compatible (for those OLDER games) has sample store
capability for making your own instrument patches, Great recording
capability and playback. And also WSS compatible (wndows sound system
for 16 bit compatibility, no other card has SB16 compatibility than a
SB16 and SB32). FM still there, wavetable is GM compliant.
http://www.tbeach.com/
REMEMBER lots of games get around the compatibility issue by playing the
music for the game straight off CD. You don't need ANY wavetable to
playback audio from a CD.
What's your main aim in life with the sound card? If its music
composition, you shouldn't be looking at a COMPATIBLE card as such,
rather get one that'll work (let's assume) Windows to compose, create
patch banks and load them into the card.
If you want to play games as well. The Tropez will do the above and help
you out with all your older games. The sound in games is usually never
16-bit anyway because of space contraints, so even on the latest games,
a SB or SBPro will do, obviously WSS16 is your choice for 16bit sound
compatibility. Later games will have the Tropez Plus listed in the
options to select, then you don't even have to worry.
Enough rattling...David G....your cue...
Frederick Y Mah
John Brand <joh...@hipsys.co.za> writes:
>Ok, Ok, Ok. I am aware that there have been so many releases of SB32,
>SB32AWE, SB32Value, Plug and Play and not, with or without
>daughterboards, that I have lost completely the track of how many
>'editions' of SB there are lately. (What on earth is on a phoneblaster,
>just a SB16?)
>Maybe the LATEST versions of SB32 comes with slots for EXTRA RAM, as far
>as I have seen at my local SB branch, that was NOT the case. They
>'forgot' to mention this NON-upgrability at all on the box. It means
>that Soundfonts were NOT compatible. That maybe a good way of checking
>if it can use RAM Patches, look for the SoundFont Symbol on the box,
>possibly with the word UPGRADABLE by plugging in SIMMs.
>Let me know!
Every one but the AWE32 Value Edition (not sold anymore) has SIMM sockets.
>HOWEVER!!!! I still Recommend Tropez Plus.....
>- It is 100% compatible for SB and SBPro (NOT SB16, only SB16 and SB32
>are!!)
>- It is 100% WSS (16-bit) compatible (most games have this option, even
>older ones to produce 16-bit quality)
>- The Tropez can have 12 Megs of patches (other that the BUILT-IN 4 Megs
>GM Patch set) and ther AWE up to 28, but you have to plug in 32Megs
>(16megs SIMMs x 2, very expensive) and it can only use 28 of it, a
>WASTED 6 Megs. That's NOT value for money!!!!!! The Tropez Plus does not
>waste ANY memory in this way
>http://www.tbeach.com/
>--
>John Brand
>email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
> "A dim light brightens..."
>My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
If you are serious about MIDI I think the AWE has some advantages over
the Tropez (not the digital audio part). First, you can get up to 28MB
though you could just go to 16MB if you don't want to loose 4MB.
Then for all that RAM you have access to high quality E-mu samples. I've
tried some of the popular commerical samples for TB, but some patches make me
wonder if they know what a loop is. Thus, many patches are useless. The E-mu
stuff is very good. Not perfect, but very useable. Then there's the
digital output and Vienna/Preditor/Esbeekay. These programs are quite
stable compared to Wavepatch which various users have problems with.
I think Vienna 1.0 and the current version only gives me problems about
1 in 300-400 times I use it.
Oh, also some dynamic resonant filters and channelized effects.
I'd prefer a Tahiti minimum for digital audio myself.
If you just want a general purpose card though I suppose either would do.
--
Fred Mah --- fm...@ecn.purdue.edu
http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah
Ed Brown
>No No No, The SB32 has no RAM to store extra samples! None, and cannot
>upgrade either (even if they made a daugther board) because there is no
>DB connector. The AWE hasnt got the world's most wanted patch set,
>so....
<<deletia>>
Upgrading the SB32 to 2 megs of ram is quick, easy, and cheap. I did it
for the princely sum of $30 and about 15 minutes worth of my time. It's
as simple as 1) remove SB32; 2) pop in 2 1-meg 30-pin SIMMs; 3) replace
SB32; 4) turn on computer. This is a good solution to sample ram needs
and should be more useful than the 512k standard ram on the AWE32.
Granted, there is no wavetable daughter card connector but so what?
The SB32 IS a wavetable card and with extra ram just about any
available patch set can be uploaded to the card and used. I've heard
that there is an 7.5-meg soundbank that is absolutely fabulous. I've
not gotten a demo of that yet but it should be very good. With the
usual wavetable rom boards, you get *1* patch set and you are stuck
with it as long as you own the card... unless you can swap out the rom
at some point. Also, for anyone who just HAS to have a separate wavetable
rom card, there are cards available that do not plug onto a daughter card
port. They do need an ISA slot though. There are lots of options in
this area and the best for any particular person depends primarily upon
what they plan to do with their soundcard.
Regards,
-=- Ed
John Brand
Denis Auroux wrote:
>
> No, you're wrong. The SB32 has no daughterboard connector, but it
> has two SIMM sockets, so you can put either 2MB, 8MB (or 32MB if
> you find 16MB SIMMs). It seems that the only difference between
> SB32 and AWE32 is the daughterboard connector, and the fact that
> the AWE32 has 512K built-in RAM (which cannot be used if you add
> SIMMs anyway).
>
> Possibly there might be differences regarding ASP evolutivity, but
> nobody has found any use for the ASP anyway.
>
> For Reverb, Chorus, etc... (what they call "AWE"), the SB32 seems
> to have the same features as the AWE32.
>
> Denis.
Read my other post to Zyxt, then you'll understand.
I Personally don't like the fact that you can only use 28Meg of the 32
Meg after buying 2x16Meg SIMMs for a fortune.
Peter Kim
In article <4nsueq$j...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Zyxt <zy...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
RTFM, try www.creaf.com. They have all the information you need.
- Peter
Hp Lovecraft
I have 3 SB32's, all of them have 2 slots for 30pin SIMMs, I've
put 8MB in each of them.
So they are upgradeable in that way, in my experience.
Chris.
Peter Kim
In article <31A40A...@hipsys.co.za>,
John Brand <joh...@hipsys.co.za> wrote:
>
>Read my other post to Zyxt, then you'll understand.
>I Personally don't like the fact that you can only use 28Meg of the 32
>Meg after buying 2x16Meg SIMMs for a fortune.
>
>--
>John Brand
I also donot like the fact that you lose 4meg when you install
32megs. But what I especially donot like is somebody spreading
misinformation. I am not aware of _any_ SB32's which donot have
RAM expansion. AWE Value Editions were the only type of boards
that did this _ever_. Please get the facts straight before posting.
- Peter
John Brand
> >John Brand
> >email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
> > "A dim light brightens..."
> >My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
>
> the Tropez (not the digital audio part). First, you can get up to 28MB
> though you could just go to 16MB if you don't want to loose 4MB.
> Then for all that RAM you have access to high quality E-mu samples. I've
> tried some of the popular commerical samples for TB, but some patches make me
> wonder if they know what a loop is. Thus, many patches are useless. The E-mu
> stuff is very good. Not perfect, but very useable. Then there's the
> digital output and Vienna/Preditor/Esbeekay. These programs are quite
> stable compared to Wavepatch which various users have problems with.
> I think Vienna 1.0 and the current version only gives me problems about
> 1 in 300-400 times I use it.
> Oh, also some dynamic resonant filters and channelized effects.
> I'd prefer a Tahiti minimum for digital audio myself.
>
> If you just want a general purpose card though I suppose either would do.
> --
> Fred Mah --- fm...@ecn.purdue.edu
> http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah
Go David, Go David, Go
Go David, Go David, Go
Go David, Go David, Go
(!loud cheerleaders cry!)
Frederick, I think David Gasior will have a word with us all soon!
Anyway, I can't wait until the Supa dupa 3D thingamabob comes out. I'll
buy now and wait until the Direct Technologies have stabilised, and
Vendors decide on how memory acces on Video cards, sound cards and main
memory will be integrated and shared.
No Direct API from Microsoft currently has support for using patches
instead of local CPU mixed sound for Music and effects.
It's so bad that some companiesstick either to FM, General MIDI, or
CD-AUDIO for game music, and mix sound effects with CPU power (another
crap idea)
When they have 3DSound Cards, 3DVideo cards and they become stable,
then I'll buy a set and have my pentium sitting doing basically nothing
except count the score and reading my joystick.
John Brand
I apologised to him for the incorrect information. There has been so
many versions of the SB32 and its variants, that I have never bothered
to look if they have RAM or not. Our local Distributor doesn't even want
to demo that fact.
It it not clear to me why you claim th ONLY, since I celarly looked on
the Box of an SB32 when they came out, and that box NEVER had the
SoundFont logo, not stated ANYWHERE on the box that it had RAM expansion
of any kind. This is MY experience and not a survey of Creative
Technology.
I am aware of their technology, but I prefer not to buy it. They are
defintely not a market leader when it comes to Sound Cards. They merely
provide a value for money and sometimes not even that.
Anyway, Zyxt (THE ORIGINAL POSTER ASKING THE QUESTION) is fully aware of
my apology on the correct information on the SB32. He is aware of the
SB32's capabilities. I was merely trying to point some notes out to him
regarding OTHER aspects of the card, since having RAM or NOT is merely a
check in a box and this was then blown way out of preportion.
no...@atom.com
First off, I want to say that I have owned a Tropez since it was
released about a year and a half ago. I "don't" recommend or like
this card.
>> >Ok, Ok, Ok. I am aware that there have been so many releases of SB32,
>> >SB32AWE, SB32Value, Plug and Play and not, with or without
>> >daughterboards, that I have lost completely the track of how many
>> >'editions' of SB there are lately. (What on earth is on a phoneblaster,
>> >just a SB16?)
>>
>> >Maybe the LATEST versions of SB32 comes with slots for EXTRA RAM, as far
>> >as I have seen at my local SB branch, that was NOT the case. They
>> >'forgot' to mention this NON-upgrability at all on the box. It means
>> >that Soundfonts were NOT compatible. That maybe a good way of checking
>> >if it can use RAM Patches, look for the SoundFont Symbol on the box,
>> >possibly with the word UPGRADABLE by plugging in SIMMs.
All of the SB32 cards have had RAM sockets that I am aware of. They
don't have a daughter board connector, and for that reason, I think it
is well worth it to buy an AWE over the SB32.
>> >HOWEVER!!!! I still Recommend Tropez Plus.....
>> >- It is 100% compatible for SB and SBPro (NOT SB16, only SB16 and SB32
>> >are!!)
>> >- It is 100% WSS (16-bit) compatible (most games have this option, even
>> >older ones to produce 16-bit quality)
Most DOS games do not have WSS compatibility, especially older ones.
>> >- The Tropez can have 12 Megs of patches (other that the BUILT-IN 4 Megs
>> >GM Patch set) and ther AWE up to 28, but you have to plug in 32Megs
>> >(16megs SIMMs x 2, very expensive) and it can only use 28 of it, a
>> >WASTED 6 Megs.
That is 4 megs that are wasted not 6.
>> >That's NOT value for money!!!!!! The Tropez Plus does not
>> >waste ANY memory in this way
If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
the AWE is not value for the money?
>> >--
>> >John Brand
>> >email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
>> > "A dim light brightens..."
A dim light indeed.
>> >My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
supported, and a pain to use.
Huh?
>No Direct API from Microsoft currently has support for using patches
>instead of local CPU mixed sound for Music and effects.
>
Huh?
>It's so bad that some companiesstick either to FM, General MIDI, or
>CD-AUDIO for game music, and mix sound effects with CPU power (another
>crap idea)
>
Huh?
>When they have 3DSound Cards, 3DVideo cards and they become stable,
>then I'll buy a set and have my pentium sitting doing basically nothing
>except count the score and reading my joystick.
>
>--
Huh?
Anybody know what the hell he is saying here?
_ __ __
/ | / / ____ _ __ ____ _ / /__
/ |/ / / __ \ | / // __ `/ / //_/
/ /| / / /_/ / |/ // /_/ / / ,<
/_/ |_/ \____/|___/ \__,_/ /_/|_|
Frederick Y Mah
John Brand <joh...@hipsys.co.za> writes:
>No Direct API from Microsoft currently has support for using patches
>instead of local CPU mixed sound for Music and effects.
DirectMusic from MS is out in 3rd quarter with a standardized
patch download format. DirectSound3D is out in August.
>It's so bad that some companiesstick either to FM, General MIDI, or
>CD-AUDIO for game music, and mix sound effects with CPU power (another
>crap idea)
True, Quake does seems to have a very good mixing routine.
>When they have 3DSound Cards, 3DVideo cards and they become stable,
>then I'll buy a set and have my pentium sitting doing basically nothing
>except count the score and reading my joystick.
Actually DirectInput is supposed to read your joystick. It does on mine.
David Gasior
In article <31a98780...@news.alt.net>, no...@atom.com says...
>All of the SB32 cards have had RAM sockets that I am aware of. They
>don't have a daughter board connector, and for that reason, I think it
>is well worth it to buy an AWE over the SB32.
Nope, the original Value Edition did not have them.
>Most DOS games do not have WSS compatibility, especially older ones.
That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
"especially older ones".
>If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
>Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
>the AWE is not value for the money?
The questions is, how much money are you willing to put into SIMMs for your
sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>supported, and a pain to use.
Yes, and those are all the reasons that it won PC Magazine's Sound Card of the
Year award and Editor's Choice Award. Or would that be just one person's
experience?
David A Gasior
dav...@tbeach.com
Turtle Beach Systems
Timothy P. Kelley
On 27 May 1996 21:53:11 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>In article <31a98780...@news.alt.net>, no...@atom.com says...
>That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
>are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
>"especially older ones".
Well, that's pretty useless now, since as a gaming card, the Tropez is
basically an expensive SB Pro. For Win95 games it is useless, and for the
2 or 3 WSS games which exist, it sounds very good.
>>If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
>>Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
>>the AWE is not value for the money?
>The questions is, how much money are you willing to put into SIMMs for your
>sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
Memory is only about $8/MB now. Of course, unless you still use Win 3.x,
putting memory in the Tropez is pretty useless.
>>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>>supported, and a pain to use.
>Yes, and those are all the reasons that it won PC Magazine's Sound Card of the
>Year award and Editor's Choice Award. Or would that be just one person's
>experience?
The Tropez+ won those awards : -)? The fellow above was making a
perfectly legitimate point. At any rate, I don't think you'll find that
people give a whole lot of creedence to PC Magazine around here. PC
Magazine has some of the most suspect and ridiculous testing practices I've
ever seen.
Also, why do you feel the need to answer every negative post about TB?
(You don't). You are really sounding like a company stooge. Many of your
posts are not even remotely helpful, just defensive. What is the point of
this? What sort of responce is TB trying to elicit from the public by
letting you do this? These people have bought TB product and are
dissatisfied; your smart-aleck responses do not look very good at all.
=====================================
Tim Kelley
tke...@ix.netcom.com
Jeff Glatt
>That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
>are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
>"especially older ones".
Having listened to 8-bit and 16-bit audio devices for about 10 years
now, as well as engineering some recordings in a studio, I think that
I've got a pretty good ear when it comes to detecting the differences
between 8-bit and 16-bit audio, and frankly, most of the games I've
heard on CDROM seem to be using 16-bit audio. That telltale noise
level increase just doesn't seem to happen when the waveform begins
playing
Mark S. Wyman
no...@atom.com writes:
>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>supported, and a pain to use.
Well, I have an original Tropez and I must say it has worked with every single
game that I have purchased. I have required zero maintainence on the card.
I inserted it, loaded the software and it worked. The only catch I had
concerned getting the joystick port to be recognized in Windows but I used
a fix suggested on the net and it worked.
I originally owned a GUS which was a royal pain in the ass when it came to
compatibility. The Tropez is a much easier card to use. Also, not sure about
the SB cards now but when I looked at the AWE32 way back I was turned off by
the large TSR it required. No TSRs required for the Tropez.
This is purely from a gamer's perspective (which is what the majority of
users only use sound cards for).
But then again the market has more Wave Table cards now so there might be
better ones but I like my Tropez.
Mark
Komsomol
dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>
>Yes, and those are all the reasons that it won PC Magazine's Sound Card of the
>Year award and Editor's Choice Award. Or would that be just one person's
>experience?
>
Well, it's the "award" gimmick and it's one David has been propounding
with increasing frequency in the past few days. The Tropez has won awards from a
major publication! That would be great except that, so has the AWE, the Ensoniq,
the GUS PnP and many others.
In fact, in the past year the same magazine that David trumpets as awarding the
Tropez "Sound Card of the Year" gave the the AWE an "MVP Award - Multimedia
Hardware" in 11/95 and named the AWE as "Best Wavetable Card" in June 1995, as
well as a couple of other awards.
I assume that since all the current TB wavetable cards use the 1994 era
wavefront ROMS that this 1995 award is undeniable proof in TB's eyes that the
AWE ROM is a better wavetable than any currently availiable TB product. It did
win the wavetable of the year award didn't it? (How the AWE won such an award
over the Ensoniq and Roland wavetables availiable at the time is beyond me!)
It's probably harder to name a card which hasn't won an award from some
prestigious organization. What does an award prove if everyone's won one (or
several)? In most cases these "awards" are not worth much more than the paper
they are printed on, and in some cases are nothing but advertising gimmicks.
What credibility does the Tropez's award have if in the same year the same
magazine has awarded similarly sounding awards to all of TB's major competitors?
If someone is swayed by one of these nebulous "awards" they are probably doing
themselves a great disservice. There's no substitute for testing a product with
your own ears for comparisons of sound quality, and confering with other users
about ease of installation, reliability and stability of the software.
K
David Gasior
In article <31aa6d8d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>Well, that's pretty useless now, since as a gaming card, the Tropez is
>basically an expensive SB Pro. For Win95 games it is useless, and for the
>2 or 3 WSS games which exist, it sounds very good.
Useless? Do you have the card? Do you know how to use it? The only Windows
games that I have had any problems running were Pitfall and Earthworm Jim.
Everything else runs fine. The Tropez is a hell of a lot more than an
expensive SB Pro.
>Memory is only about $8/MB now. Of course, unless you still use Win 3.x,
>putting memory in the Tropez is pretty useless.
I think the user may be to blame since I can upload samples just fine in
Windows95 with my Tropez and the existing drivers.
>Also, why do you feel the need to answer every negative post about TB?
I don't respond to every negative post just to answer the ones like yours that
have no merit. There are a lot of things about Turtle Beach that I do not like
and will not defend. But when people like you post general and ridiculous
statements like those above, then I am going to answer it so unsuspecting
people don't think it is true.
>What sort of responce is TB trying to elicit from the public by
>letting you do this? These people have bought TB product and are
>dissatisfied; your smart-aleck responses do not look very good at all.
Turtle Beach is not trying to elicit anything by "letting me do
this". I do this of my own free time because when I was making a
purchase for a sound card, I came to the newsgroups for
recommendation and read all kinds of conflicting posts. No one was
here to tell me about the sound cards from the companies themselves. I made a
bad purchase and am grateful I was able to exchange it. I try to do that here
by providing facts and information about Turtle Beach and its products.
Smart-aleck responses? I don't know what you consider smart-aleck, but when
people make pointless, negative comments, than I am going to respond, and if
you don't like it, I am very sorry, but I am not going to stop. I try to make
a valuable contribution to this newsgroup.
no...@atom.com
>>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>>supported, and a pain to use.
>
>game that I have purchased. I have required zero maintainence on the card.
>I inserted it, loaded the software and it worked. The only catch I had
>concerned getting the joystick port to be recognized in Windows but I used
>a fix suggested on the net and it worked.
Well, to qualify my statements, I'll tell you the problems I had with
my Tropez. I too was able to get the Tropez to work with all my
games. That wasn't the problem. Here are the problems I had:
1. It is true that you don't need a TSR with the Tropez, but now you
don't need one with the AWE either. With games supporting the AWE
being very common now (practically a standard) and MPU-401 emulation
under Win95 with the new drivers, the TSR is almost never needed.
Also, you don't have to sit through the 5-10 second MIDI
initialization in DOS and windows, like you do with the Tropez. This
really becomes time consuming. DOS games under Win95 don't work well
with the Tropez, and it is better to exit to DOS. Doing this means
sitting through the MIDI initialization every time you reboot after
your done in DOS. Some machines can go straight back to windows
without a reboot, but many insist on rebooting. Restarting windows a
second time from DOS mode without a reboot also causes multiple
versions of command.com to be loaded and can cause DOS mode
compatibility in some situations. Win95 is slow enough booting
without stuff making a boot even slower.
2. I had trouble getting the Tropez to work at all in Win95 before
the Win95 drivers were released. While this isn't an issue now, it
was a painful experience then. After months of waiting on the Win95
drivers, they were not much better than my hacks of the Windows 3.1 4
disk install. Support for the Tropez is not that great. I expected
more. Maybe they will do better with the 32 bit drivers.
3. A few DOS games have trouble recognizing the Tropez when running
under Win95 without setting the DOS session to run with "prevent from
detecting windows" checked and Tzmode being run in the same session
first. Sound card detection utilities in games can crash or not work
at all while under Win95 with the Tropez. This causes more wasted
time by having to exit to DOS first to set up a game. It is
constantly some sort of problem with my Tropez.
4. I had many problems with sound hanging and stuttering when
minimizing and exiting DOS games in Win95 and even with Win95 games
like The Hive. My AWE doesn't have any problems like this.
5. My Tropez would make a LOUD irritating noise when my computer was
turned off. I have been told this is normal for all Tropezs.
6. It will never fully support Direct Sound.
7. The CD Audio connector on the card is not the standard size. Many
CD Rom drives don't come with a connector that will fit on it. The
pins aren't labeled on the card or in the manual either.
8. The DOS mixer adjustments are constantly being reset as you move
from DOS to Windows to a DOS window. I like to hear MIDI much louder
than the digital audio in some games. The MIDI samples generally
aren't very loud to start with (I think this is what the Fatman Seal
is all about, but I don't really know; the Tropez doesn't have the
Fatman Seal), and this makes it difficult to make the MIDI a lot
louder than the digital audio without adjusting the mixer. Generally,
I had to set the mixer up differently on every game to get it to my
liking. This means that a batch file must be written for every game I
use if I want to be sure it works at the right volume with the proper
channels muted or not muted. I still had problems with games like
DOOM where I wanted to hear the sound effects barely and the MIDI
music reasonably loud. What I ended up with was sound effects either
a little too loud or not at all using both the Tropez's mixer and the
game's volume controls. With the AWE, I have never even adjusted the
mixer yet because every game I play is at the right volume to start
with and can be adjusted the way I like it within the game. In fact,
I don't even have any of the AWE's DOS software installed. The
Tropez's mixer was a pain to use because I "had" to use it often and
it wasn't that great.
9. Running Tzmode in Win95's startup folder, to get a joystick to
work under Win95, also consumes time because multitasking is slow for
the 3-5 seconds this program runs. I don't want anything else in my
startup folder slowing boot time down.
10. Getting a mic to work with the Tropez is difficult because it
requires a "special" 600 ohm mic. Most mics that work great with a SB
card won't work with the Tropez. I even went out and bought a 600 ohm
mic for 25 bucks, and it didn't work either.
11. The digital audio on the Tropez in DOS games does not sound as
good as a SB16 or AWE. People can tell me that most games only have 8
bit sound or whatever, but my AWE sounds better to me than my Tropez
as far as digital audio in games period. Just try any game that tests
the digital audio by playing a sound in the center channel (both L+R),
then the left, and then the right. There is not much stereo
separation on most all of the DOS games I have heard using the Tropez
emulating a SB PRO. The digital audio's clarity and stereo separation
sounds perfect on my AWE.
12. The Tropez is noisier than my AWE with the Line in and Mic jacks
not muted. It is a little quieter if they are muted, but the problem
is that the mixer doesn't stay set from DOS to windows to a DOS window
which makes it difficult to keep those lines muted all the time. This
also becomes quite a problem if you have something plugged into the
line in or mic jacks. I think that overall the AWE is a quieter card
for that reason. The Tropez can be very quiet, but the question is
how often.
13. Setting up all of the stuff you have to do to get the Tropez
working correctly can take up considerable time when you are having to
reinstall from scratch. With my AWE, I didn't install any of the
software. I plugged it in, turned on the computer, downloaded the
latest drivers, installed them, and it was working perfectly. It took
me about 5-10 minutes. I admit it is not that easy with a PNP AWE if
you also need sound in DOS, and that is why I don't like PNP sound
cards.
What I have mentioned so far are problems of some degree on all
Tropezs if my card is any indication. Other than those things I guess
it is a good card, but the sad thing is that I didn't even get into
the problems that don't occur all the time. %^)
>I originally owned a GUS which was a royal pain in the ass when it came to
>compatibility. The Tropez is a much easier card to use. Also, not sure about
>the SB cards now but when I looked at the AWE32 way back I was turned off by
>the large TSR it required. No TSRs required for the Tropez.
>
>This is purely from a gamer's perspective (which is what the majority of
>users only use sound cards for).
>
The Tropez is easier to use than a GUS in terms of compatibility
because it is more compatible. My view on the Tropez is also from a
gamer's point of view. One of the reasons I like the AWE so much is
because of its excellent game support. I'll just say that I didn't
know what I had been missing until I put the Tropez on the shelf and
bought an AWE.
>But then again the market has more Wave Table cards now so there might be
>better ones but I like my Tropez.
>
>Mark
In the beginning, I liked my Tropez too. I thought that they would
write some good Win95 drivers that would fix many of the problems I
was having. They never fixed the mixer, the joystick, or the sound
stuttering and hanging problems, and maybe they can't. I still hope
the new 32 bit drivers fix these problems. I gave up when I called to
get the RIO's 4 meg sample set from them, after buying a 4 meg SIMM to
use it, and Turtle Beach told me they don't have it anymore (sounds
like a bunch of crap to me; maybe its true, but it's pretty lame if it
is). I was told 4-5 times I could get it, but neither Turtle Beach
nor David could help me out when the time came. Someone read one of
my posts about it and gave me a copy (Thanks). Too little, too late,
but at least I have something kewl to play with. I am not attacking
anyone for liking the Tropez. I'm just so sick over all the
frustration I had with my Tropez, and I feel better about it by
posting my experiences so others can learn from my mistakes.
no...@atom.com
>>All of the SB32 cards have had RAM sockets that I am aware of. They
>>don't have a daughter board connector, and for that reason, I think it
>>is well worth it to buy an AWE over the SB32.
>
I wasn't aware that there ever was a SB32 Value Edition. I have never
seen one, and Creative doesn't have anything about it on their web
site. All of the SB32 cards mentioned on Creative's site have RAM
sockets. Are you sure you are not referring to the AWE value edition
or some OEM version of the SB32?
>>Most DOS games do not have WSS compatibility, especially older ones.
>
>That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
>are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
>"especially older ones".
I was correcting the previous poster, and I wouldn't say that. I will
say the digital audio on my AWE stills sounds better than my Tropez on
many of the games I have. That is the point I am making regardless of
whether the samples are 8 bit or 16 bit.
>>If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
>>Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
>>the AWE is not value for the money?
>
>The questions is, how much money are you willing to put into SIMMs for your
>sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
>>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>>supported, and a pain to use.
>
>Yes, and those are all the reasons that it won PC Magazine's Sound Card of the
>Year award and Editor's Choice Award. Or would that be just one person's
>experience?
>
>David A Gasior
>dav...@tbeach.com
>Turtle Beach Systems
>
Actually, yeah, it did win the Editor's Choice Award for being a big
disappointment, not very well supported, and a pain to use. I think
they called the review "The Worst in Hardware". Sorry David, I have
used the card as long as anyone has and I just don't like it. It
isn't the worst, but it sure isn't the best either. Believe PC
Magazine's review over someone who has used the card hours a day for
over a year. It ain't hurtin my feelins.
Matt Kellner
On 29 May 1996, David Gasior wrote:
> In article <31aa6d8d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
> >Also, why do you feel the need to answer every negative post about TB?
>
> I don't respond to every negative post just to answer the ones like yours
> that have no merit. There are a lot of things about Turtle Beach that I
> do not like and will not defend. But when people like you post general
> and ridiculous statements like those above, then I am going to answer it
> so unsuspecting people don't think it is true.
David: I'm not taking sides here, but I just wanted to stick a suggestion
out here... when you say "you're going to answer it so unsuspecting people
don't think it's true," it sounds a little bit like "we'd like to cover
this up." I'm not saying that that was what you were trying to say, but
that's the first thing that came to my mind when I read this message.
In addition, as a representative of your company, people are probably
going to hold somewhat of a bias against you. When you post, either
promoting or defending one of your company's products, people will be
likely to respond with "naaah... he's just advertising for his company"
and "he's just trying to save his/his company's ass."
I hate to say this, but I've noticed that having people other than
company reps say good things about a soundcard generally serves to
promote the product and its manufacturer MUCH more than having a company
rep say it. I don't think you should stop posting, but be prepared to
have some people not believe you when they see "Turtle Beach Systems" in
your signature. Customer reviews and criticism is by far the most
effective way to promote and/or complain about a product. ("You know, I
just bought this really great sound card... it's made by this company...
you should give it a try!" etc...)
Still, I'm sure we all appreciate the massive amount of your own time
you're putting into these newsgroups. It says a lot about your company,
too. A plus on your side... I have yet to see company reps from ANY of
the other soundcard companies post to these groups. (In fact, the only
other companies that I've seen actually take part in newsgroup discussions
are Parallax Software and Interplay Productions, both of which are
responsible for Descent.)
> >What sort of responce is TB trying to elicit from the public by
> >letting you do this? These people have bought TB product and are
> >dissatisfied; your smart-aleck responses do not look very good at all.
To the person who posted this: I would rather see David on here defending
his company and its products than to see Turtle Beach staying out of the
newsgroups entirely... it shows that someone's listening.
> Turtle Beach is not trying to elicit anything by "letting me do this". I
> do this of my own free time because when I was making a purchase for a
> sound card, I came to the newsgroups for recommendation and read all kinds
> of conflicting posts. No one was here to tell me about the sound cards
> from the companies themselves. I made a bad purchase and am grateful I
> was able to exchange it. I try to do that here by providing facts and
> information about Turtle Beach and its products.
I did the same exact thing a while back... about 7 months ago, I didn't
see any sort of discussion in comp.sys...soundcard.advocacy about Turtle
Beach's products. And when I asked about the Rio, I received some
favorable reviews, although most people had said they'd never heard of it
or worked with it.
I still think that, barring the problems I've been having with stability
with the Rio, the Rio is the best Wavetable I've heard so far... in my
opinion, its default patchset is far better than the ESS-Audiodrive 644
and the SB AWE32... since I don't have any RAM on-board, I can't upload
any patches to it, but that's okay as far as I'm concerned.
I have NOT heard the Roland SoundCanvas, the GUS, or the Yamaha DB50X (or
whatever it is), so I wouldn't know what to say about them.
> Smart-aleck responses? I don't know what you consider smart-aleck, but
> when people make pointless, negative comments, than I am going to respond,
> and if you don't like it, I am very sorry, but I am not going to stop. I
> try to make a valuable contribution to this newsgroup.
Which you are. Keep up the good work!
-Matt Kellner
Cal Poly State University
=========================
Technical FAQ coming soon! E-mail me your questions about computer
hardware and software issues, and I'll do my best to answer them. If I
can, or if I can provide information on how else to obtain an answer,
I'll e-mail you a response and include them in my FAQ!
John Brand
> people make pointless, negative comments, than I am going to respond, and if
> you don't like it, I am very sorry, but I am not going to stop. I try to make
> a valuable contribution to this newsgroup.
>
Thanks for coming to my defence David. Let me put in a good word for
you.
Most people can't understand the position I am in and many others around
the world.
Sound Cards, for one exception the Soundblaster Range, is VERY
INACCESSABLE in other countries. I had to do Web research on all of the
aspects I had for choosing a sound card. My main ones were Sound
Quality, Patch Set, Sample Store Capability, some kind of SB emulation
for older games and 16-bit 44kHz (or higher) recoding and playback.
Looking at all the cards on the market (and I had a LONG, LONG list),
half of them haven't heard the term RAM and probably will take them
longer to incorporate into their designs. I stuck with a name I relied
on as well.
Turtle Beach caught my eye long ago as being the maker of a superior
quality card. It was compared to the Current 16-bit ones in an article
long ago. SB16, PAS16 and Monterey. The Moneterey was the ONLY one with
an almost FLAT audio response to all frequencies, but it was VERy pricy
at the time: professionals only.
I was sad at the results of my PAS16 card, but at least it wasn't worse
than the SB16, the worst one (Please NO FLAMING, Please). Since then I
have had a high regard for Turtle Beach. When I had to make my choice on
Soundcard, I had to do it WITHOUT even listening to the card. I based my
decision on (hope, oh sorry...) pure merit and technical specs. The
Tropez Plus had a Tick all over and won (as I'm sure it did all over
comparitive results to other cards)
Remember that I WANTED RAM storage, that excludes daughterboard WT sets,
Ensoniq, etc. The card is currently shipping to me, and will arrive in
about a week. Then my opinion will be VOICED!
Thanks for all your snippets of info here and there, it really does give
insight and assistance.
You mentioned some things about Wave SEII and a surprise for Patch
editor for the Tropez Plus Owners????
--
John Brand
email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
"A dim light brightens..."
Greg Cisko
In article <4ogfpi$d...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) writes:
>In article <31aa6d8d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>>basically an expensive SB Pro. For Win95 games it is useless, and for the
>>2 or 3 WSS games which exist, it sounds very good.
>
>Useless? Do you have the card? Do you know how to use it? The only Windows
>games that I have had any problems running were Pitfall and Earthworm Jim.
What is the problem? Compatability? Or drivers? If memory serves, the reason the
TROPEZ is an expensive SB PRO is because it uses the same basic hardware as the
SB Pro (like mediatrix & others). Of course it should do SB stuff.
And before you ask if I own the card. I do not. You offered this editorialIZATION
in a public forum & everyone gets to participate :-) Plus I would really like to
know your answer.
>Everything else runs fine. The Tropez is a hell of a lot more than an
>expensive SB Pro.
>
>>Memory is only about $8/MB now. Of course, unless you still use Win 3.x,
>>putting memory in the Tropez is pretty useless.
>
>I think the user may be to blame since I can upload samples just fine in
>Windows95 with my Tropez and the existing drivers.
Of course you are right. Who knows what these YA-Hoos are doing? I guess the
problem I would have is why is it so difficult? I would think they should
have no problem what-so-ever doing these things.
>
>>Also, why do you feel the need to answer every negative post about TB?
>
>I don't respond to every negative post just to answer the ones like yours that
>have no merit. There are a lot of things about Turtle Beach that I do not like
Well now we are drifting farther apart. Who are you to say that his post has no
merit? You are biased to the company you work for (or is that not obvious).
I think I would like to judge for myself whether his post has merit. THANK YOU.
>and will not defend. But when people like you post general and ridiculous
>statements like those above, then I am going to answer it so unsuspecting
>people don't think it is true.
Of course it is always helpful to see how the company reps handle themselves
with reguards to PAYING CUSTOMERS. It help me decide whether I would like
to be a PAYING CUSTOMER at some time in the future. Thanks for the insight.
>
>>What sort of responce is TB trying to elicit from the public by
>>letting you do this? These people have bought TB product and are
>>dissatisfied; your smart-aleck responses do not look very good at all.
>
>Turtle Beach is not trying to elicit anything by "letting me do
>this". I do this of my own free time because when I was making a
>purchase for a sound card, I came to the newsgroups for
>recommendation and read all kinds of conflicting posts. No one was
>here to tell me about the sound cards from the companies themselves. I made a
>bad purchase and am grateful I was able to exchange it. I try to do that here
>by providing facts and information about Turtle Beach and its products.
>
>Smart-aleck responses? I don't know what you consider smart-aleck, but when
>people make pointless, negative comments, than I am going to respond, and if
>you don't like it, I am very sorry, but I am not going to stop. I try to make
>a valuable contribution to this newsgroup.
Good then you should do that :-)
Sean Kellner
>
> >>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
> >>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
> >>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
> >>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
> >>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
> >>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
> >>supported, and a pain to use.
> >
> >Well, I have an original Tropez and I must say it has worked with every single
> >game that I have purchased. I have required zero maintainence on the card.
> >I inserted it, loaded the software and it worked. The only catch I had
> >concerned getting the joystick port to be recognized in Windows but I used
> >a fix suggested on the net and it worked.
>
>
> Well, to qualify my statements, I'll tell you the problems I had with
> my Tropez. I too was able to get the Tropez to work with all my
> games. That wasn't the problem. Here are the problems I had:
>
I have gotten it to work with nearly every game so far. The two
exceptions are Pitfall 95 and Earthworm Jim. But I think everyone
knows about the problem with these games. I go to a friends house to
play these games (SB AWE 32) for now, but Dave says the 32 bit Tropez
drivers will fix that. I am adding a CD-R tonight along with it's
Adaptec SCSI card so I now get to have two SCSI busses and Win 95 and
a CD-R. People say this can be a finicky combo and I may just run out
and buy a soundcard with better support and leave the better sounding
Tropez behind. Sigh. I'll wait some more for the Tropez drivers and
wipe the HD and reinstall Win 95 again just to make sure nothing can
go wrong and I get perfect sound. Win 95 installation aint so painful
when everything is on a CD. Everybody's drivers will install right off
the CD, except for the SCSI drivers which load from a Zip drive and
the Tropez, which will apparently require a floppy again.
>
>
> 1. It is true that you don't need a TSR with the Tropez, but now you
> don't need one with the AWE either. With games supporting the AWE
> being very common now (practically a standard) and MPU-401 emulation
> under Win95 with the new drivers, the TSR is almost never needed.
> Also, you don't have to sit through the 5-10 second MIDI
> initialization in DOS and windows, like you do with the Tropez. This
> really becomes time consuming. DOS games under Win95 don't work well
> with the Tropez, and it is better to exit to DOS. Doing this means
> sitting through the MIDI initialization every time you reboot after
> your done in DOS. Some machines can go straight back to windows
> without a reboot, but many insist on rebooting. Restarting windows a
> second time from DOS mode without a reboot also causes multiple
> versions of command.com to be loaded and can cause DOS mode
> compatibility in some situations. Win95 is slow enough booting
> without stuff making a boot even slower.
I would appreciate it if the soundcard only needed initialization on
a cold boot and could then keep running on warm boots without much
attention.
>
> 2. I had trouble getting the Tropez to work at all in Win95 before
> the Win95 drivers were released. While this isn't an issue now, it
> was a painful experience then. After months of waiting on the Win95
> drivers, they were not much better than my hacks of the Windows 3.1 4
> disk install. Support for the Tropez is not that great. I expected
> more. Maybe they will do better with the 32 bit drivers.
>
I can make Tropez do the little noises Windows likes to make, but I
didn't pay $200 to hear a few bars of a MicroSoft jingle.
> 3. A few DOS games have trouble recognizing the Tropez when running
> under Win95 without setting the DOS session to run with "prevent from
> detecting windows" checked and Tzmode being run in the same session
> first. Sound card detection utilities in games can crash or not work
> at all while under Win95 with the Tropez. This causes more wasted
> time by having to exit to DOS first to set up a game. It is
> constantly some sort of problem with my Tropez.
I just set most of my games to go to DOS mode. This allows the MIDI
card to be initialized before playing the game, as well as after.
>
> 4. I had many problems with sound hanging and stuttering when
> minimizing and exiting DOS games in Win95 and even with Win95 games
> like The Hive. My AWE doesn't have any problems like this.
>
> 5. My Tropez would make a LOUD irritating noise when my computer was
> turned off. I have been told this is normal for all Tropezs.
>
Yea, noticed this too. Quickly. It scares people.
> 6. It will never fully support Direct Sound.
>
I'll still give them a chance to see what comes out of it. I guess
we can't expect hardware companies to keep up with the latest in OS's,
but I am spending my money on companies that do it anyways. In just
these past few weeks, friends have asked for my opinion and 3 Matrox
Milleniums have been sold, along with a couple of Nokia 447X's. I'd
like them better if Matrox would give out programming info so XFree86
could support it, but they continually update their BIOS and drivers
and add new features. I bought my CD-R after I heard about the one
from TB, and would'nt even consider it even if it was the same drive,
SCSI card and software for a lower price. I dance from OS to OS
entirely too often to keep supporting a company like that.
> 7. The CD Audio connector on the card is not the standard size. Many
> CD Rom drives don't come with a connector that will fit on it. The
> pins aren't labeled on the card or in the manual either.
>
Took me a while but I found a cable at an Egghead. Only a minor quibble.
> 8. The DOS mixer adjustments are constantly being reset as you move
> from DOS to Windows to a DOS window. I like to hear MIDI much louder
> than the digital audio in some games. The MIDI samples generally
> aren't very loud to start with (I think this is what the Fatman Seal
> is all about, but I don't really know; the Tropez doesn't have the
> Fatman Seal), and this makes it difficult to make the MIDI a lot
> louder than the digital audio without adjusting the mixer. Generally,
> I had to set the mixer up differently on every game to get it to my
> liking. This means that a batch file must be written for every game I
> use if I want to be sure it works at the right volume with the proper
> channels muted or not muted. I still had problems with games like
> DOOM where I wanted to hear the sound effects barely and the MIDI
> music reasonably loud. What I ended up with was sound effects either
> a little too loud or not at all using both the Tropez's mixer and the
> game's volume controls. With the AWE, I have never even adjusted the
> mixer yet because every game I play is at the right volume to start
> with and can be adjusted the way I like it within the game. In fact,
> I don't even have any of the AWE's DOS software installed. The
> Tropez's mixer was a pain to use because I "had" to use it often and
> it wasn't that great.
>
I just find myself fiddling with it a lot. Never got ambitious
enough to even recognize if I was making similar changes over and over
again.
> 9. Running Tzmode in Win95's startup folder, to get a joystick to
> work under Win95, also consumes time because multitasking is slow for
> the 3-5 seconds this program runs. I don't want anything else in my
> startup folder slowing boot time down.
Easy enough to fix, I bought a Thrustmaster joystick card. Now I
need a switch due to having the Thrustmaster F-16 setup, the gravis
pad and the TM steering wheel rig.
>
> 10. Getting a mic to work with the Tropez is difficult because it
> requires a "special" 600 ohm mic. Most mics that work great with a SB
> card won't work with the Tropez. I even went out and bought a 600 ohm
> mic for 25 bucks, and it didn't work either.
>
I tried a Sun mic for about two days. Not sure if it's a 600 ohm mic
or not. No success, but that's expected.
> 11. The digital audio on the Tropez in DOS games does not sound as
> good as a SB16 or AWE. People can tell me that most games only have 8
> bit sound or whatever, but my AWE sounds better to me than my Tropez
> as far as digital audio in games period. Just try any game that tests
> the digital audio by playing a sound in the center channel (both L+R),
> then the left, and then the right. There is not much stereo
> separation on most all of the DOS games I have heard using the Tropez
> emulating a SB PRO. The digital audio's clarity and stereo separation
> sounds perfect on my AWE.
>
I have never complained about the sounds the Tropez makes when it's
happy, and probably never will. I get fine seperation.
> 12. The Tropez is noisier than my AWE with the Line in and Mic jacks
> not muted. It is a little quieter if they are muted, but the problem
> is that the mixer doesn't stay set from DOS to windows to a DOS window
> which makes it difficult to keep those lines muted all the time. This
> also becomes quite a problem if you have something plugged into the
> line in or mic jacks. I think that overall the AWE is a quieter card
> for that reason. The Tropez can be very quiet, but the question is
> how often.
>
I do hear lots of noise, but have never played with the mixer to get
rid of it. I always considered it the price of having a sound device
in a computer. I gotta try that out.
> 13. Setting up all of the stuff you have to do to get the Tropez
> working correctly can take up considerable time when you are having to
> reinstall from scratch. With my AWE, I didn't install any of the
> software. I plugged it in, turned on the computer, downloaded the
> latest drivers, installed them, and it was working perfectly. It took
> me about 5-10 minutes. I admit it is not that easy with a PNP AWE if
> you also need sound in DOS, and that is why I don't like PNP sound
> cards.
>
Thats the way most of my equipment works. Well, everything but my
Tropez (and after tonight I will have 4 ISA cards and 2 PCI on a
Triton MB with most of the basics buit in so I do have some hardware
in there.)
>
>
> What I have mentioned so far are problems of some degree on all
> Tropezs if my card is any indication. Other than those things I guess
> it is a good card, but the sad thing is that I didn't even get into
> the problems that don't occur all the time. %^)
>
Allow me to add one more. I had this one licked about a year ago,
but can't remember what I did. In trying to track down the problem I
kept it simple, only the video, SCSI and Tropez cards on the MB, DOS
6.22, nothing wierd in the config.sys or autoexec.bat. Nothing Tropez
related in either file. So I run tzmode -w and the setup command to
load the MIDI OS and start a game that supports WSS. All I get is a
very slow version of whats supposed to be playing and slow video. The
whole computer slows down I think. Starting a game of Descent and then
quitting and going back to the original game will usually make it
sound & work just right. Even better is Need For Speed. Start up and
go to NFS, slow sound, slow video. Wait for the menu, go to sound
options and change the sound type off of 16 bit stereo, instantly
sounds & works great! Cycle the options back to 16 bit stereo and it
works! It's almost as if I need to do something to the card to
initialize it. Now the docs say the tzmode in the config.sys is to
enable the cd-rom interface. Anyone have any ideas on how to make this
work???
Whew, long post. Thanks for any ideas anyone is willing to send my
way ....
--
Sean Kellner
se...@lexis-nexis.com
Tom Bonge
Denis Auroux wrote:
> No, you're wrong. The SB32 has no daughterboard connector, but it
> has two SIMM sockets, so you can put either 2MB, 8MB (or 32MB if
> you find 16MB SIMMs). It seems that the only difference between
> SB32 and AWE32 is the daughterboard connector, and the fact that
> the AWE32 has 512K built-in RAM (which cannot be used if you add
> SIMMs anyway).
There is one other difference, I have here a SB32 that I am using (not
mine though), and I wanted to know why the AWE32 costs so much more and
if it is worth it. If you look at the SB32 card and the AWE32 card side
by side you will se that they are the exact same circuit board, but some
chips are different. There is an empty pad on the SB32 card where there
is a 512k dram chip, just under the sim sockets. There are three
other chips on the AWE32 card that are not on the SB32 card. These are
the SB16 digital audio chip set, the SB32 has a single new chip that
replaces these three older ones, this is the new vibra chip.
>
> Possibly there might be differences regarding ASP evolutivity, but
> nobody has found any use for the ASP anyway.
The SB32 does not have the ASP unless it is built in to the Vibra chip,
if you look at the SB32 card there is an empty pad where the ASP is
located on the AWE32, you would have to be able to surface mount solder
an asp onto this empty space, but I dont know if it would work with the
vibra chip anyway. Same thing with the daughtercard connector, there is
an empty space where it would be.
Ferro
David Gasior wrote:
>
> >If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
> >Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
> >the AWE is not value for the money?
>
> sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
I suppose this was about loosing those 4MB. AWE doesn't loose any memory
if you put under 32 meg to it.
And if you think 16 MB is not necessery to a soundcard musician you're
in wrong business.
> Yes, and those are all the reasons that it won PC Magazine's Sound Card of the
> Year award and Editor's Choice Award.
Which issue is it?
--
Ferro /\/\/\ Dem proctus non pasficus,
nhal...@alpha.hut.fi \/\/\/ que si padre nauticum.
David Gasior
In article <31abfb1b....@news.alt.net>, no...@atom.com says...
>Maybe they will do better with the 32 bit drivers.
Just a quick note: the native Windows95 drivers for the Tropez will be 16bit,
just like every other sound card. The VXD files will be 32bit.
>5. My Tropez would make a LOUD irritating noise when my computer was
>turned off. I have been told this is normal for all Tropezs.
Yes, it is. Like any other high fidelity equipment, we recommend powering the
speakers off first on shutting down and powering them on last when starting up.
>6. It will never fully support Direct Sound.
Digital audio will not. The WaveFront may still yet.
>7. The CD Audio connector on the card is not the standard size. Many
>CD Rom drives don't come with a connector that will fit on it. The
>pins aren't labeled on the card or in the manual either.
Yes, it is. It is the same size as the MPC2 standard, however the pin
configuration is different. Switch the colored cables in the audio cable and
it will be fine.
>11. The digital audio on the Tropez in DOS games does not sound as
>good as a SB16 or AWE. People can tell me that most games only have 8
>bit sound or whatever, but my AWE sounds better to me than my Tropez
>as far as digital audio in games period. Just try any game that tests
>the digital audio by playing a sound in the center channel (both L+R),
>then the left, and then the right. There is not much stereo
>separation on most all of the DOS games I have heard using the Tropez
>emulating a SB PRO.
Emulating a SB Pro, no. But in its native 16bit mode, the Tropez sound card is
much quieter than anything Creative Labs has ever created as sound tests have
proven.
>In the beginning, I liked my Tropez too. I thought that they would
>write some good Win95 drivers that would fix many of the problems I
>was having. They never fixed the mixer, the joystick, or the sound
>stuttering and hanging problems, and maybe they can't.
All the problems mentioned were fixed in the beta drivers with the exception of
the mixer and MIDI volume. Mixer and digital volume has no problems. As such,
the final version should have the MIDI fixed as well.
>get the RIO's 4 meg sample set from them, after buying a 4 meg SIMM to
>use it, and Turtle Beach told me they don't have it anymore (sounds
>like a bunch of crap to me; maybe its true, but it's pretty lame if it
>is). I was told 4-5 times I could get it, but neither Turtle Beach
>nor David could help me out when the time came.
I'm sorry that I could not help you out, but when you asked me, I asked the
Engineering department and the Manager of Tech Services and neither was able to
get the 4meg set. They were being sold, but due to lack of interest, sales
were stopped.
David Gasior
In article <4oi6p9$f...@mailgate.lexis-nexis.com>, se...@lexis-nexis.com says...
> I have gotten it to work with nearly every game so far. The two
>exceptions are Pitfall 95 and Earthworm Jim. But I think everyone
>knows about the problem with these games. I go to a friends house to
>play these games (SB AWE 32) for now, but Dave says the 32 bit Tropez
>drivers will fix that. I am adding a CD-R tonight along with it's
>Adaptec SCSI card so I now get to have two SCSI busses and Win 95 and
>a CD-R. People say this can be a finicky combo and I may just run out
>and buy a soundcard with better support and leave the better sounding
>Tropez behind.
You really don't need to do that. I have the Tropez in my system with the
native drivers and a Ricoh CD-R attached to a AdvanSys ISA bus-mastering SCSI
card and they get along fine.
> I would appreciate it if the soundcard only needed initialization on
>a cold boot and could then keep running on warm boots without much
>attention.
In most cases, it should.
>and add new features. I bought my CD-R after I heard about the one
>from TB, and would'nt even consider it even if it was the same drive,
>SCSI card and software for a lower price. I dance from OS to OS
>entirely too often to keep supporting a company like that.
The TBS2040 (CD Master II) kit ships with Windows3, Windows95, and WindowsNT
drivers for the SCSI card. As well, the software - Corel CD Creator - runs on
all three platforms.
> I have never complained about the sounds the Tropez makes when it's
>happy, and probably never will. I get fine seperation.
I haven't heard of anyone who doesn't before the previous post.
David Gasior
In article <31AC3B...@hipsys.co.za>, joh...@hipsys.co.za says...
>You mentioned some things about Wave SEII and a surprise for Patch
>editor for the Tropez Plus Owners????
I have been working at home on this for the last week and hope that I can get
it finished tonight or tomorrow night (depending on how much mail I have gotten
on here since my "inflammatory" remarks).
I will make an announcement on here when I am sure it is ready.
David Gasior
In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960529...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu>,
mkel...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu says...
>David: I'm not taking sides here, but I just wanted to stick a suggestion
>out here... when you say "you're going to answer it so unsuspecting people
>don't think it's true," it sounds a little bit like "we'd like to cover
>this up." I'm not saying that that was what you were trying to say, but
>that's the first thing that came to my mind when I read this message.
As I have stated before, there are a lot of things about TB that I don't agree
with and I am not going to sit here and defend those. But when people say
things about the company that are generally not true or malicious, then I will
comment on it, and state the truth. I have no reason to lie. Turtle Beach
does not pay me to do this. I was doing this before I came to work for them.
I have two job offers now from competing multimedia companies, both of whom
asked me to come work for them from my presence here on the Net, so if Turtle
Beach went under, I would be fine - I am not hyping the company in an attempt
to keep it afloat or anything. I am just stating the truth, providing whatever
information I can, and that is all.
>In addition, as a representative of your company, people are probably
>going to hold somewhat of a bias against you.
Well, of course, and to a degree they should. But I have been an extremely
honest person who is not hear to be the TB sales/marketing department. While I
do defend the company and its products, I spend more time hyping the Yamaha
DB50XG sound card! =)
>Still, I'm sure we all appreciate the massive amount of your own time
>you're putting into these newsgroups. It says a lot about your company,
>too. A plus on your side... I have yet to see company reps from ANY of
>the other soundcard companies post to these groups.
Well, I wouldn't say everyone is happy to see me here. People like Mr. Kelley
appear to want me gone so no one can contradict the false claims they make. If
there is a problem with a TB product, I can make every attempt to fix it if
people bring it to my attention.
Since I started with TB, my first mission was to get native Windows95 drivers
out for as many of our products as I could. The Monte Carlo 929 card is done.
The Tahiti and Monterey are done. The Tropez and Maui are almost done. The
Monte Carlo 928 has native support via the WSS drivers. I think that is pretty
good for my first three months. If people bring concerns to me, I can work
with them. There is a new project coming out that is based on an idea someone
from the newsgroups gave me. I thought it was great, and ran with it. If
people come to me first (I don't put my personal work email address in the
posts for nothing) and let me try to solve it, then more things will be done.
And if they can't be, I will state that they can't.
>I have NOT heard the Roland SoundCanvas, the GUS, or the Yamaha DB50X (or
>whatever it is), so I wouldn't know what to say about them.
The SoundCanvas is very good, but I believe that the Yamaha DB50XG blows them
all away.
David Gasior
In article <31aa9c92...@news.alt.net>, no...@atom.com says...
>I wasn't aware that there ever was a SB32 Value Edition. I have never
>seen one, and Creative doesn't have anything about it on their web
>site. All of the SB32 cards mentioned on Creative's site have RAM
>sockets. Are you sure you are not referring to the AWE value edition
>or some OEM version of the SB32?
It may have been the AWE32 ValueEdition, but one of the "32" cards shipped
without SIMM sockets. It was quickly replaced, maybe by the Blaster32?
>Actually, yeah, it did win the Editor's Choice Award for being a big
>disappointment, not very well supported, and a pain to use. I think
>they called the review "The Worst in Hardware".
Huh?
David Gasior
In article <4ohn7o$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ci...@d0tokensun.fnal.gov says...
>What is the problem? Compatability? Or drivers? If memory serves, the reason
the
>TROPEZ is an expensive SB PRO is because it uses the same basic hardware as
the
>SB Pro (like mediatrix & others). Of course it should do SB stuff.
If you mean the problem with Earthworm Jim and Pitfall, it is because of the
Windows Sound System mode. These games use code that allows it to mix WAV
files on the fly to produce more realistic "arcade"-like noise. The WSS mode
does not handle it very well at all. Micrsoft realized this and wrote a
configuration for their implementation of it (called WAVEMIX) which fixes the
problem. Activision has not done something similar for their products. When I
posted a question to them, they told me flat out that in their tests, the
Tropez had no problems playing the game and that it must be something else in
my system.
As for the Tropez being an expensive SB Pro, if you look at it as they have the
same chip, then yes it is. But it also has the same chip as the Monterey, so
does that make it an inexpensive Monterey? The Tropez has SB Pro compatibility
only for DOS games. It has a native 16bit mode (which the Pro does not have),
it has a great wavetable synth (which the Pro does not have), it has the
ability to load your own samples (which the Pro does not have), it has an EIDE
CD ROM connector (which the Pro does not have). Seems like you get a lot more
for your money than if you bought a Pro.
>Of course you are right. Who knows what these YA-Hoos are doing? I guess the
>problem I would have is why is it so difficult? I would think they should
>have no problem what-so-ever doing these things.
Well, I am not saying that I am positively right. They could have something
else in the system causing the problem. I just upgraded my motherboard from a
486/66 to a P150+ and had a devil of a time getting up and running. Turns out,
all I needed to do was uninstall my Ensoniq SoundScape, and Windows95 came up
fine. There were no conflicts so I have no idea what the problem was. I
reinstalled it, it chose the same settings, and ran fine. Computers are not
easy things to deal with (unless you have a MAC, but then you have no choices)
and people should not expect them to be. Plug and Play is proving that.
Everyone (including Creative Labs and Gravis) are getting slammed on it.
I spent over four hours on the phone with a wonderful lady who was trying to
install a TBS6700 kit in her system (please don't think this indicative of the
installation - this is only an example). We tried two sound cards (same model
- to be sure one was not defective) and ran into all kinds of problems. It was
ugly. That is the wonder of Plug and Play. We uninstalled the PnP sound card
and removed it. Problems went away - no sound - but no problems. Normally, in
this case, I would apologize to the customer and suggest they exchange it for a
different kit with the warning "avoid plug and play if possible". But since we
had been working for so long that she could no longer exchange the kit, I sent
her a Tropez (the card no one can seem to get to work in Windows95 from the
recent posts). Yes, she lucked out. She got her card upgraded in a sense.
She installed it and in one shot was up and running. No crashing Windows - no
problems - one shot and it was a go. The Tropez is not Plug and Play.
All I can say is ... if you want Plug and Play, EVERYTHING in your system must
be plug and play to be guaranteed success. Your BIOS must comply with the new
spec for PnP. If you buy a new motherboard, buy from a reputable company (not
a cheap Taiwanese clone). While you may pay more, you have the benefit of
being able to contact them with questions. Make sure it has a flash BIOS so
you can dial them up to get the latest flash update. I had a really nice
(really fast) 486 PCI motherboard with a flash BIOS. Couldn't get the Tropez
Plus to work with it. Even though I could flash my BIOS to the latest version
so I could run the Tropez Plus, I was unable to do so because I didn't know
the manufacturer or how to contact them for a BIOS update.
Purchase wisely. Most people work hard for their money and you want to get the
best product you can. Remember the computer adage, the moment you get your new
computer home, it is already out of date; a piece of software has already been
written that you will not be able to run.
Shop wisely. Before you buy a sound card, listen to a friends, listen to a
store's set up card, get their demo disc (if available). Hear what you are
paying for. I have had people send me MIDI files, and I record about 20
seconds of it on a Tropez Plus so they can hear how it sounds. Call the tech
support numbers and see how long it takes you to get through and if the person
is polite and knowledgeable. Try emailing their support address and seeing if
you get a response and how long it takes.
Read wisely. Don't believe everything you read. Whether it is on the side of
the sound card box or posted in an Internet newsgroup. The box isn't going to
state what the card cannot do. The newsgroups are not going to be filled with
people totally satisfied with their product; they are here to ask questions
becuase they are having a problem or because they are ticked off about
something. Ask questions.
Judge the answers based on how people present themselves. What I say about my
experiences are true. If they weren't, I wouldn't put my email address on it.
If people read my posts and buy the product I talked about, I want them to
enjoy it and have it do what I said it would do. If not, they are going to
start sending email to me with all kinds of questions and I don't want that. I
am not here to create headaches for myself. I have done what no other sound
card company has done (with the exception of the MediaTrix rep who seems to
come and go) which is be here to be a part of the ongoing discussions and help
where I can and provide info where I can, and listen to suggestions when I can.
>Well now we are drifting farther apart. Who are you to say that his post has
no
>merit? You are biased to the company you work for (or is that not obvious).
>I think I would like to judge for myself whether his post has merit. THANK
YOU.
While yes, that is my opinion, I judged it as having no merit because all his
intention was in the message was to attack a company/product/person and provide
no facts or proof of his claims. Making a comment like "buying SIMMs for the
card now is pretty much useless" serves only to slam, and not inform. It is
like a child lashing out in anger. Had he said "in my experiences, using the
current drivers in Windows95, I have had this problem, this problem, and this
problem with using the SampleStore feature. Tech Support suggested this, but
it did not work for me. I have also tried this or this, but I have had no luck
and find it useless" then that has merit. He has presented a good case and has
made points that others can observe and yes, possibly learn from. I apologize
if it sounded like I was just writing him off because he said something
negative. It was now what he said, but how he said it and how he gave nothing
to back it up.
Timothy P. Kelley
On 29 May 1996 03:20:18 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>>Well, that's pretty useless now, since as a gaming card, the Tropez is
>>basically an expensive SB Pro. For Win95 games it is useless, and for the
>>2 or 3 WSS games which exist, it sounds very good.
>Useless? Do you have the card?
>I think the user may be to blame since I can upload samples just fine in
>Windows95 with my Tropez and the existing drivers.
No, I do not own one, though I have used one.
I humbly apologize for the misinformation and stand corrected; I was not
aware that the problems had been fixed (with what, the last beta drivers
set?) and it is certainly not my intention to spread falsehoods.
Still, the problem existed for some time, no? Also, I am frankly a little
confused by your statements on it's Win95 compatibility. Your assertion
that it works fine with win95 does not seem to square with your statement
that it will never be direct sound compatible. Can it (with the next
driver set) produce sounds in a directx game without sputtering and
dropping sounds out? (I think this is really what everyone wants to know).
>>Also, why do you feel the need to answer every negative post about TB?
>I don't respond to every negative post just to answer the ones like yours that
>have no merit. There are a lot of things about Turtle Beach that I do not like
>and will not defend. But when people like you post general and ridiculous
>statements like those above, then I am going to answer it so unsuspecting
>people don't think it is true.
Whatever - the previous poster had had some problems with his Tropez and
the tenor of your response was essentially "too bad" or "I'm sorry you are
too stupid to get it working". Yes, I think that is inappropriate for an
official company representative. It might have been better if you had just
offered to help. If you are not an official rep (as your statements below
attest) you really should include a disclaimer in your sig. Your current
signature looks very official.
>>What sort of responce is TB trying to elicit from the public by
>>letting you do this? These people have bought TB product and are
>>dissatisfied; your smart-aleck responses do not look very good at all.
>Smart-aleck responses? I don't know what you consider smart-aleck
For a company rep, anything which is not overtly polite is smart aleck.
IMO, a rep -despite how noble his intentions may be - has no place getting
into heated advocacy discussions (they never resolve anyway - notice
that?), but hey, do what you want. It just looks unprofessional to me.
=====================================
Tim Kelley
tke...@ix.netcom.com
John Brand
no...@atom.com wrote:
>
> >>All of the SB32 cards have had RAM sockets that I am aware of. They
> >>don't have a daughter board connector, and for that reason, I think it
> >>is well worth it to buy an AWE over the SB32.
> >
>
> seen one, and Creative doesn't have anything about it on their web
> site. All of the SB32 cards mentioned on Creative's site have RAM
> sockets. Are you sure you are not referring to the AWE value edition
> or some OEM version of the SB32?
just a couple of months ago, Creative's Web site is no reflection of
their hardware out in other parts of the world. By the way, you ARE from
the USA or NOT? I'm not and there are OTHER people in the World with
greater problems that just setting a soundcard up, like getting a
soundcard. And at the time, this was a great concern to me in sizing up
new technologies and therefore I checked (several times), they defintely
had no RAM upgradability on the SB32 (initial) card. I am NOT saying
that new newer modes do not have, inf fact they have sockets for RAM
upgrade. Thank you.
And yes, I do reccomend the AWE32 to people who are NOT looking for a
professional card, but simply for a multimedia card with a lot of
support and a lot of software. Its good for them, although I prefer to
take my choice in the end (notice no brand name, ho-hum).
> >>Most DOS games do not have WSS compatibility, especially older ones.
> >
> >That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
> >are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
> >"especially older ones".
>
> I was correcting the previous poster, and I wouldn't say that. I will
> say the digital audio on my AWE stills sounds better than my Tropez on
> many of the games I have. That is the point I am making regardless of
> whether the samples are 8 bit or 16 bit.
It can't sound better, thats perceptive, since 16-bit sound is 256 times
beter than 8-bit sound. 16-bit will always sound better. The mixer stage
also has an influence on the sound and the output gain amplifiers. I
studied Electronic Engineering and one of my subjects was Digital Signal
Processing. I understand the Nyquist sampling theory.
> >>If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
> >>Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
> >>the AWE is not value for the money?
> >
> >The questions is, how much money are you willing to put into SIMMs for your
> >sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
There are many things that have changed from Tropez to Tropez Plus. The
memory count was not that high on my list in my selection criteria. The
fact that is almost half my main memory gives me peace of mind.
> >>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
> >>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
> >>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
> >>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
> >>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
> >>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
> >>supported, and a pain to use.
In fact!!! This is one of my points, You never had a Tropez Plus have
you? Your experiences are based (and biased) on the Tropez (reading you
other posts, being usure of the Tropez+ Features). I have bought and is
being shipped, a Tropez Plus, and yes I have never heard the card. I
have found that individual system configurations influence the card's
setup much more so thatn the card and its software. There is no possible
way that every driver loaded together with your SoundCards can be
guaranteed to co-exist and still work. Software people can just not
program every conceivable machine setup and configuration into the
drivers protection.
< ...portion deleted...>
I have looked on the Soundblaster pages and from what I can also
remember from reading spec sheets from the SB16. the SB16 is
Soundblaster compatible and NOT Soundblaster PRO compatbile. This takes
aways support for older stereo 8-bit games. This can be pulled through
to the SB32 wich only has wavetable support built-in onto the SB16 with
RAm sockets.
Nowhere on the Creative pages is a MENTION of the compatibility of its
sound cards with older versions. Check it out.
--
John Brand
email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
"A dim light brightens..."
Matt Kellner
On 30 May 1996, David Gasior wrote:
> As I have stated before, there are a lot of things about TB that I don't
> agree with and I am not going to sit here and defend those. But when
> people say things about the company that are generally not true or
> malicious, then I will comment on it, and state the truth. I have no
> reason to lie. Turtle Beach does not pay me to do this. I was doing this
> before I came to work for them. I have two job offers now from competing
> multimedia companies, both of whom asked me to come work for them from my
> presence here on the Net, so if Turtle Beach went under, I would be fine -
> I am not hyping the company in an attempt to keep it afloat or anything.
> I am just stating the truth, providing whatever information I can, and
> that is all.
Hmmmm.... do you know of any companies that could use some good
all-around tech-support? That sounds like right up the alley of the kind
of stuff I'm doing a lot.
> Well, of course, and to a degree they should. But I have been an
> extremely honest person who is not hear to be the TB sales/marketing
> department. While I do defend the company and its products, I spend more
> time hyping the Yamaha DB50XG sound card! =)
Hehehe... a real person! That's what I like about people like you.
> >Still, I'm sure we all appreciate the massive amount of your own time
> >you're putting into these newsgroups. It says a lot about your company,
> >too. A plus on your side... I have yet to see company reps from ANY of
> >the other soundcard companies post to these groups.
>
> Well, I wouldn't say everyone is happy to see me here. People like Mr.
> Kelley appear to want me gone so no one can contradict the false claims
> they make. If there is a problem with a TB product, I can make every
> attempt to fix it if people bring it to my attention.
Well, okay... maybe not "everyone"... but I certainly appreciate the time
and effore you're putting into this. And I know there are others on here
who feel the same. I'd encourage you to keep it up.
> >I have NOT heard the Roland SoundCanvas, the GUS, or the Yamaha DB50X (or
> >whatever it is), so I wouldn't know what to say about them.
>
> The SoundCanvas is very good, but I believe that the Yamaha DB50XG blows them
> all away.
What's your opinion about the Roland and Yamaha cards vs. the Rio? I
like the patchset in the Rio (with the possible exception of some of the
drum programs and the chorus sounds), but because of the stability
problems I'm having with the thing, I'm thinking of just getting a new
wavetable card (perhaps selling the Rio and buying a new Yamaha or Roland
card with it).
no...@atom.com
>> >>All of the SB32 cards have had RAM sockets that I am aware of. They
>> >>don't have a daughter board connector, and for that reason, I think it
>> >>is well worth it to buy an AWE over the SB32.
>> >Nope, the original Value Edition did not have them.
>> I wasn't aware that there ever was a SB32 Value Edition. I have never
>> seen one, and Creative doesn't have anything about it on their web
>> site. All of the SB32 cards mentioned on Creative's site have RAM
>> sockets. Are you sure you are not referring to the AWE value edition
>> or some OEM version of the SB32?
>Well Catch a wake-up then, there was quite a lot of those cards around
>just a couple of months ago, Creative's Web site is no reflection of
>their hardware out in other parts of the world. By the way, you ARE from
>the USA or NOT? I'm not and there are OTHER people in the World with
>greater problems that just setting a soundcard up, like getting a
>soundcard. And at the time, this was a great concern to me in sizing up
>new technologies and therefore I checked (several times), they defintely
>had no RAM upgradability on the SB32 (initial) card. I am NOT saying
>that new newer modes do not have, inf fact they have sockets for RAM
>upgrade. Thank you.
I am from the US. Florida.
Catch a wake-up? Look John, I have looked for one on the web and
can't find one anywhere, on any site, where it doesn't have SIMM
sockets, and I personally have seen three SB32s, installed them, and
used them. David has already posted that he was most likely mistaken
that it was an AWE32 value edition that he was referring to. You said
yourself that you "figured" this out from the box in your local store:
>It it not clear to me why you claim th ONLY, since I celarly looked on
>the Box of an SB32 when they came out, and that box NEVER had the
>SoundFont logo, not stated ANYWHERE on the box that it had RAM expansion
>of any kind. This is MY experience and not a survey of Creative
>Technology.
In another post:
>Maybe the LATEST versions of SB32 comes with slots for EXTRA RAM, as far
>as I have seen at my local SB branch, that was NOT the case. They
>'forgot' to mention this NON-upgrability at all on the box. It means
>that Soundfonts were NOT compatible. That maybe a good way of checking
>if it can use RAM Patches, look for the SoundFont Symbol on the box,
>possibly with the word UPGRADABLE by plugging in SIMMs.
Did it ever occur to you that the SB32 doesn't support sound fonts out
of the box because it doesn't have 512k RAM on it like the AWE?
>And yes, I do reccomend the AWE32 to people who are NOT looking for a
>professional card, but simply for a multimedia card with a lot of
>support and a lot of software. Its good for them, although I prefer to
>take my choice in the end (notice no brand name, ho-hum).
Possibly, the AWE is the best card for many people right now. I
really enjoy mine. With a good daughter board it, it is tops in my
view, unless you need to do high quality hard disk recording, need
"true" 16 bit full duplex, or need hardware MOD playback.
Unfortunately, finding a non-PNP AWE now is difficult. I have been
told that the AWE is soon to be replaced by a better card. If they
fix the problems the AWE has now, Creative can't go wrong.
>> >>Most DOS games do not have WSS compatibility, especially older ones.
>> >That is why we have SB Pro compatibility. And before you say that SB16 sounds
>> >are 16bit and SB Pro are 8bit, most games only use 8bit samples anyway,
>> >"especially older ones".
>> I was correcting the previous poster, and I wouldn't say that. I will
>> say the digital audio on my AWE stills sounds better than my Tropez on
>> many of the games I have. That is the point I am making regardless of
>> whether the samples are 8 bit or 16 bit.
>It can't sound better, thats perceptive, since 16-bit sound is 256 times
>beter than 8-bit sound. 16-bit will always sound better. The mixer stage
>also has an influence on the sound and the output gain amplifiers. I
>studied Electronic Engineering and one of my subjects was Digital Signal
>Processing. I understand the Nyquist sampling theory.
Obviously, you think I am comparing apples and oranges, but since the
post made it clear that the AWE's DOS digital audio is 16 bit and the
Tropez's DOS SB PRO emulation is only 8 bit, I think it is fair to say
that my "experience" is that the AWE's DOS digital audio sounds better
on many of my games. I don't understand Nyquist's theorem (maybe you
can explain it to me), but from what I have read about it, it doesn't
relate to which sounds better to me. Again and again you relate to
stuff you have read and not to your actual experience with the stuff
you are writing about. If I don't make any other point clear to you,
know that reading stuff about something is an in-"credibly" very
distant second to actual experience about it. I still think you may
miss the point. It is a difficult one to "really" understand.
>> >>If the Tropez+ is like the Tropez, it can only use 12 megs of RAM.
>> >>Since the AWE can support 16 megs without any waste, how do you figure
>> >>the AWE is not value for the money?
>> >The questions is, how much money are you willing to put into SIMMs for your
>> >sound card? How many samples are you possibly going to upload?
>There are many things that have changed from Tropez to Tropez Plus. The
>memory count was not that high on my list in my selection criteria. The
>fact that is almost half my main memory gives me peace of mind.
Yeah, I agree. That is why the point you made saying that the AWE
isn't value for the money because it wastes 4 megs when using 32 was
ridiculous.
>> >>This is the kind of post I don't like to see. You don't even own a
>> >>Tropez+ and you are recommending it. You have never used the card.
>> >>Try paying more attention to your actual experience instead of getting
>> >>caught up with concepts and dogma. You have convinced yourself this
>> >>is a great card without even using it. I have used a Tropez since the
>> >>month it came out. It was a big disappointment, not very well
>> >>supported, and a pain to use.
>In fact!!! This is one of my points, You never had a Tropez Plus have
>you? Your experiences are based (and biased) on the Tropez (reading you
>other posts, being usure of the Tropez+ Features). I have bought and is
>being shipped, a Tropez Plus, and yes I have never heard the card. I
>have found that individual system configurations influence the card's
>setup much more so thatn the card and its software. There is no possible
>way that every driver loaded together with your SoundCards can be
>guaranteed to co-exist and still work. Software people can just not
>program every conceivable machine setup and configuration into the
>drivers protection.
No, I have never owned a Tropez+. I have only read the Tropez+'s
features (just like you have), and that is why I haven't posted any
opinion on the Tropez+. Just because I have a Tropez and not a
Tropez+ doesn't make anything I said to you any less true. I haven't
said I liked or disliked the Tropez+. This is because I have never
seen or owned a Tropez+. I would imagine and have read that it has
some similar problems to the Tropez. Also, since it is PNP, it is off
to a bad start with me already. I don't like any PNP sound cards,
including the SB cards.
>I have looked on the Soundblaster pages and from what I can also
>remember from reading spec sheets from the SB16. the SB16 is
>Soundblaster compatible and NOT Soundblaster PRO compatbile. This takes
>aways support for older stereo 8-bit games. This can be pulled through
>to the SB32 wich only has wavetable support built-in onto the SB16 with
>RAm sockets.
Huh?
>Nowhere on the Creative pages is a MENTION of the compatibility of its
>sound cards with older versions. Check it out.
Damn. I really miss it. =) Besides, I have played demos with a SB16
that were made to run with a SB PRO. I really don't think they aren't
compatible, I could be wrong, but out of the 30-40 DOS games I have, I
don't have any that are only SB PRO compatible to test that anyway.
This is not an issue for almost anyone considering a good sound card
anyway.
>John Brand
>email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
> "A dim light brightens..."
>My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
_ __ __
Sean Kellner
> In article <4oi6p9$f...@mailgate.lexis-nexis.com>, se...@lexis-nexis.com says...
>
> > I would appreciate it if the soundcard only needed initialization on
> >a cold boot and could then keep running on warm boots without much
> >attention.
>
> In most cases, it should.
>
Is there a specific version of the setup program that I need or is
it OK to just not run it on every bootup? I thought in the doc's for
the 3 disk set it said that it would detect if it didn't need to be
run again, but I haven't noticed it skipping a OS load yet.
> >and add new features. I bought my CD-R after I heard about the one
> >from TB, and would'nt even consider it even if it was the same drive,
> >SCSI card and software for a lower price. I dance from OS to OS
> >entirely too often to keep supporting a company like that.
>
> The TBS2040 (CD Master II) kit ships with Windows3, Windows95, and WindowsNT
> drivers for the SCSI card. As well, the software - Corel CD Creator - runs on
> all three platforms.
What I mean is say something new comes out. Maybe even something
from MS that will be required to run some of the apps I want to
run. History has shown that TB really won't care to make their
hardware work with it and claim that it works great in the environment
it was sold for. Maybe we can't expect TB to keep up with every large
development in the OS arena, so from now on I won't expect anything
like that out of them.
--
Sean Kellner
se...@lexis-nexis.com
Patrick R. Mullen
John Brand wrote:
>
> David Gasior wrote:
> >
> > In article <31aa6d8d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
> >
> > people make pointless, negative comments, than I am going to respond, and if
> > you don't like it, I am very sorry, but I am not going to stop. I try to make
> > a valuable contribution to this newsgroup.
> >
> editor for the Tropez Plus Owners????
>
> John Brand
> email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
> "A dim light brightens..."
> My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
John:
We just got our Tropez Plus, and are very impressed with this board.
I'd like to hear your comments on the Plus when you get yours. Feel
free to contact us any time you wish!
In the mean time, I'd like to say that our company GREATLY appreciates
the help and support we have received from Dave Gasior. David's
no-nonsense answers to our questions led us to decide to take the leap,
and begin supporting Turtle Beach soundcards (our company develops
drivers and application software for the soundcard industry).
I for one am glad to see that the American soundcard industry has NOT
been destroyed by companies like Creative Labs of Singapore, or Aztech
in Taiwan. There may still be some rough edges to Turtle Beach products
(though we haven't found any ourselves yet), but I'm willing to work
WITH the company to help resolve any problems that might come up
(instead of just bashing Turtle people for the fun of it). In the end,
I believe that taking a cooperative approach (especialy where people
like Dave Gasior are concerned) will benefit everyone.
Cheers!
Patrick R. Mullen
Dir. of Engineering
Mullen Scientific Software
1686 State Route 69
Parish, NY 13131
(315) 625-4660
prmu...@MCIMail.com
Patrick R. Mullen
no...@atom.com wrote:
[long "I hate Tropez" message]
Novak:
Since you stuck your Tropez on the shelf, would you be interested in
perhaps donating it to our soundcard lab? I'd be interested in seeing
how the older Tropez compares to the new Tropez Plus.
Patrick R. Mullen
Matt Kellner wrote:
{text deleted: defense of David Gasior]
Matt:
As a volunteer moderator for the soundcard newsgroup, I have been trying to get as many soundcard reps on the
net as possible. I believe David Gasior is doing an excellent job of helping-out people with questions
concerning Turtle Beach products.
Now, if we can only get somebody from Gravis to do the same for the GUS InterWave PnP (ever since Alan Alvarez
left, the soundcard newsgroup people have had no help or support from Gravis). Francois Menard (of Mediatrix)
used to spend a lot of time on the newsgroup, helping people out with questions concerning the Audiotrix-Pro,
but his presence on the net has decreased significantly in the last 6 months. No one (till recently) has been
doing much about CrystaLake Multimedia soundcards, and there must be a host of other small soundcard companies
out their who are also absent from the newsgroup.
In the end, Jens Puchert and I (along with other MSS people) have been trying to pick up the slack, as it
were, with help from many other individuals (mostly end-users and other software developers such as
ourselves). I think it is a shame when soundcard companies withdraw from the newsgroup, and therefore would
like to thank David and Turtle Beach for making a point of staying in the fray. With all the verbal missiles
that fly back and forth, Dave (and Turtle Beach) deserve some credit for sticking it out on the newsgroup,
when so many other companies have withdrawn.
Riccardo Losselli
On 30 May 1996 02:02:50 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior)
wrote:
>All I can say is ... if you want Plug and Play, EVERYTHING in your system must
>be plug and play to be guaranteed success. Your BIOS must comply with the new
>spec for PnP. If you buy a new motherboard, buy from a reputable company (not
>a cheap Taiwanese clone).
David, ypu're right about P'nP, but why, instead of not buying a
cheapo mboard, you don't suggest of TESTING it first?
I have a noname (maybe UMC) Award bios mboad on my system, and my GUS
P'nP worked just PERFECT from the start. Winslow 95 just booted and
told me to insert the drivers. I think that, more than the
motherboard, it's the BIOS that must be checked. Anyone remebers Asus
problems with P'nP Award bios ??
>Shop wisely. Before you buy a sound card, listen to a friends, listen to a
>store's set up card, get their demo disc (if available). Hear what you are
>paying for.
Just two more suggestions:
1) If you can, bring with you your favorite midi files..
2) If you can bring with you a friend, possibly a musician, or someone
who has heard a real sound card or synth.
Bye,
Ricky
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Keeper of Gus Mailing Lists Maker of UltraSoundCanvas set|
| Get a Life.... Get a GUS!!!! |
|To subscribe to the gus mailing list send me a mail with in the body:|
| subscribe gus-general |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
no...@atom.com
>no...@atom.com wrote:
>
>[long "I hate Tropez" message]
>
>Novak:
>
>Since you stuck your Tropez on the shelf, would you be interested in
>perhaps donating it to our soundcard lab? I'd be interested in seeing
>how the older Tropez compares to the new Tropez Plus.
>
>
> Patrick R. Mullen
> Dir. of Engineering
> Mullen Scientific Software
> 1686 State Route 69
> Parish, NY 13131
>
> (315) 625-4660
> prmu...@MCIMail.com
Hey Pat. Nothing towards you, but there are some issues I want to
address here. Criticism and hate are two different things. Just
because I am attacking an all mighty Turtle Beach product doesn't make
me the bad guy. That wasn't a blind bashing of the Tropez or a flame.
That was an account of all the problems I had with it. It looked like
it was a bashing because I had so many problems. I didn't even list
all of the problems I had. I kept to those that would seem to be a
problem with any Tropez, as far as I could tell from my card. I
understand that different hardware situations can cause different
problems. Since I used the Tropez with 6 different motherboards, I
think I can understand the difference. I have put this board through
the ringer for over a year and posted the information I found. It is
true that I wasn't impartial, but I have had many reasons to be
frustrated and not like the card. I wish everyone would take the time
to post any problems they had with the way their sound card works in
detail. Unfortunately, it seems as though many people don't like to
discuss or acknowledge the faults of the cards they have bought. Many
people like to praise what they use as the best because they own it
(if it is plausible), even though it has certain problems and doesn't
do some things as well as other cards. I did this in the sound card
groups after I got my Tropez. After making posts so highly
recommending the Tropez, I am now sorry that I recommended it after
all my problems. People tend to only post the good stuff and not the
bad. I for one would like to know what problems the CLMI 140 and the
AT-PRO have. I have seen one good post detailing the problems someone
had with the AT-PRO and none yet on the CLMI 140 (I really haven't
seen any informative posts about the CLMI 140 good or bad). I have
read these cards are quiet. I have read they work good. I have read
they sound good. This doesn't tell me anything very useful. I read
that about the Tropez before I bought it too. One of the reasons I
really like this web page on the AWE:
http://www.compart.fi/~mhjelt/awe/
is because he points out most of the AWE's bad points as well as the
good stuff. In fact, this is one hell of a web page for anyone with
an AWE or considering buying one. It is one of the best pages on the
net concerning sound cards in my book.
I post to the newsgroups to help people get on the right track and
post information they may find useful. People have done it for me on
Usenet, and I like to contribute back. The Tropez is more or less
being replaced by the Tropez+ (I think). What I have said about the
Tropez should be considered before buying a Tropez+, but I don't know
that it has any of the same problems and have said so.
I would also like to say something to David Gasior. I like what you
are doing and think you should be commended. I have never attacked
you or Turtle Beach. Though, I have pointed out all the problems I
have had with my Tropez often and without hesitation. I feel pretty
strongly about it. I haven't said anything bad just to be derogatory.
I try always to back up my views with how I came to feel that way.
Don't take offense to this please. If no one posted what really was
on their mind, this wouldn't be much of a newsgroup. I respect you
and don't want you to feel like I'm out to get ya or something. I see
people slam the AWE all the time in this newsgroup, and I really like
mine, but I don't get overly defensive. I respect you for trying very
hard to be as impartial as you can when you have replied to my posts.
It was mentioned that you made a smart-alec remark to one of my posts,
but I didn't see it as offensive. Sometimes people will treat you
more harshly because you do represent Turtle Beach. The President of
the US and anyone in a position of authority is always more closely
scrutinized; no one is "perfect" nor should they have to be. Your
position as a Rep for TB is not that much different. I think you
might start to feel like "why bother if they're going to say such
crap". Don't think that. Your wanted and appreciated around here by
everyone including me.
Frederick Y Mah
no...@atom.com writes:
>that about the Tropez before I bought it too. One of the reasons I
>really like this web page on the AWE:
>http://www.compart.fi/~mhjelt/awe/
>is because he points out most of the AWE's bad points as well as the
>good stuff. In fact, this is one hell of a web page for anyone with
>an AWE or considering buying one. It is one of the best pages on the
>net concerning sound cards in my book.
Uh, don't visit that now. It is being changed with most of the existing
information being rather old.
--
Fred Mah --- fm...@ecn.purdue.edu
http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah
Swavek
I used to own the Sound Blaster Awe32 (the orignal full version when
it 1st came out) and it worked well. The problem was with the midi
and older games that didn't support the Awe32 but did support general
midi. 9 out of 10 I could not get the awe to play midi. Anyway, i
returned the card and purchased the TB Tropez, which i'm very happy
with. I suppose the tropez only works as sound blaster pro but
considering that most games (at least the ones i play) have 8 bit 11hz
digital samples does it really make a difference? (If i'm wrong about
this someone please corret me on this.) Thus far, the only problems i
have is getting dos games to work under win95. midi works fine but no
digital sound. oh well, not that big of a deal for me. i just start
up dos mode or reboot. Anyway.. the tropez is wonderful card and i'm
fully satasfied with it.
>>> Swavek <<<
David Gasior
In article <31ae793a...@news.netnitco.net>, swa...@netnitco.net says...
>have is getting dos games to work under win95. midi works fine but no
>digital sound. oh well, not that big of a deal for me. i just start
>up dos mode or reboot. Anyway.. the tropez is wonderful card and i'm
>fully satasfied with it.
Just a quick note ... we will have native drivers very shortly that allows you
SB-compatibility in Windows95 so you do not need to go to DOS mode any longer.
David Gasior
In article <31AC0D...@alpha.hut.fi>, nhal...@alpha.hut.fi says...
>Which issue is it?
Not sure, but it was 1995, so whichever issue has the Best of Year awards.
David Gasior
In article <4ok6l5$4...@mailgate.lexis-nexis.com>, se...@lexis-nexis.com says...
> Is there a specific version of the setup program that I need or is
>it OK to just not run it on every bootup? I thought in the doc's for
>the 3 disk set it said that it would detect if it didn't need to be
>run again, but I haven't noticed it skipping a OS load yet.
The idea is if your go into Windows and load the OS and then go to DOS, you
don't need to run SETUPSND. If you go back into Windows, it should not load
the OS again. This applies to version 1.3 and above.
> What I mean is say something new comes out. Maybe even something
>from MS that will be required to run some of the apps I want to
>run. History has shown that TB really won't care to make their
>hardware work with it and claim that it works great in the environment
>it was sold for. Maybe we can't expect TB to keep up with every large
>development in the OS arena, so from now on I won't expect anything
>like that out of them.
I'm not going to lie and say we do, but we cannot develop for every single
operating system that comes out. If that is all you want, then maybe you
should go with Creative Labs because most everyone develops drivers for SB
products. But even from the point of the consumer, I still feel that if you
move to another operating system, then you should expect that some of your
hardware and software will not be able to carried over. I spent a hell of a
lot more than $89 to upgrade to Windows95. But it was my decision to go to
Windows95. The items that would not work I sold, and used the money to help
pay for the new stuff. That is the computer industry.
As for not supporting our older products, all of our major sound cards will
have native Windows95 drivers by the end of June. And all of them continue to
work well (with the exception of the AudioAdvantage) in Windows95. Now that MS
has released its decision to go with the NT model for sound card drivers, we
are looking at NT drivers, and already have a beta driver for our WaveFront
chip, which will cover the MIDI portion of our Tropez, Maui, and Tropez Plus
sound cards. HallSound Systems has drivers for the entire Multisound line.
This means again, that all of our sound cards will be supported in WindowsNT.
What else would you like?
David Gasior
In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960530...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu>,
mkel...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu says...
>Hmmmm.... do you know of any companies that could use some good
>all-around tech-support? That sounds like right up the alley of the kind
>of stuff I'm doing a lot.
Well, actually we may be looking for a tech support representative in the next
few months. If you are seriously interested, please fax me a resume at (510)
624 6292.
>What's your opinion about the Roland and Yamaha cards vs. the Rio?
The Rio was a great wavetable set when it came out. But other cards have
superseced it and there really is no comparison between it and the Roland or
Yamaha boards. For the cost, it is still a good wavetable set, and it sounds
fine relegated to my SB16 for DOS games. But placing the DB50XG on my Tahiti
was the most amazing thing I have done with my multimedia system. (Okay,
upgradign to the P150+ was cool too.)
>problems I'm having with the thing, I'm thinking of just getting a new
>wavetable card (perhaps selling the Rio and buying a new Yamaha or Roland
>card with it).
Well, I get in trouble for saying it, but I feel the Yamaha DB50XG is the
better of the two all around.
David Gasior
In article <31adf5f7...@nntpserver.vol.it>, ele...@mbox.vol.it says...
>David, ypu're right about P'nP, but why, instead of not buying a
>cheapo mboard, you don't suggest of TESTING it first?
Well, yes, but that is very hard to do.
>I have a noname (maybe UMC) Award bios mboad on my system, and my GUS
>P'nP worked just PERFECT from the start. Winslow 95 just booted and
>told me to insert the drivers.
Yes, but what happens in six months when they change the PnP spec again and a
new PnP card comes out and you need a flash but can't because you don't know
the manufacturer or get a flash? Award and AMI shy away from helping you
because the motherboard manufacturers customize the BIOS for their particular
board and they don't want to deal with your questions. You can try just
getting a whole new BIOS but that can cost up to $100 and may not work. I
recommend a "name-brand" if only to be able to get updates like that which I
know will be invaluable in the upcoming year.
>2) If you can bring with you a friend, possibly a musician, or someone
>who has heard a real sound card or synth.
Well, okay, but buy the one you like the sound of, not what they tell you is
better. You will be the one listening to it.
David Gasior
In article <31ad09a...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>confused by your statements on it's Win95 compatibility. Your assertion
>that it works fine with win95 does not seem to square with your statement
>that it will never be direct sound compatible. Can it (with the next
>driver set) produce sounds in a directx game without sputtering and
>dropping sounds out?
DirectSound is not a part of Windows95. It is an add-on that programmers can
utilize. I have tested the Tropez with my drivers with Activision's
Zork:Nemesis which uses DirectX technology. I also tested it with my SB16
which has the DirectSound drivers. I could tell no difference in any sound
quality, stuttering, or dropouts. The sound was a little hissier (is that a
word!?) on the SB16, but otherwise I could tell no difference. On my home
system, I eventually removed the MS DirectSound drivers for the SB16 because
they don't support full duplex and CL's full duplex drivers don't support
DirectSound. Kind of a Catch-22.
>Whatever - the previous poster had had some problems with his Tropez and
>the tenor of your response was essentially "too bad" or "I'm sorry you are
>too stupid to get it working". Yes, I think that is inappropriate for an
>official company representative. It might have been better if you had just
>offered to help. If you are not an official rep (as your statements below
>attest) you really should include a disclaimer in your sig. Your current
>signature looks very official.
I am an official representative, and am more than willing to help anybody. I
never said that or even implied that. Yes, there are some people who really
should not be installing hardware themselves. You would be amazed to hear some
of the calls that I get on a daily basis. I never get on the phones much, but
just today, one of our techs spent an hour on the phone with someone because
their Tropez was not working. They went over for anything and the tech asked
me to take the call because of my knowledge of the Tropez. I spent about 15
minutes with the person. Nice enough. Didn't know their way around Windows95
very well. Oh well, I didn't at first either. Finally, on a whim, I asked
them about the speakers and were they plugged into the right jack. There was a
pause and then the person asked "you need to plug speakers into it?"
It gets frustrating, but I don't take it out on people, or call them idiots. I
usually recommend having someone install the product for them to make their
life easier. I don't say "too bad" because I don't want the person to return
it. If people email me with questions, then I will help them. That is why I
have put my email address in each message so people could email me direct
instead of emailing the support address which admittedly takes longer. I am
not going to start doing tech support on here because (1) I am not getting paid
for it, (2) I would like to have a life outside of work, (3) this is not the
best forum to do it in.
David Gasior
In article <31ad7db8....@news.alt.net>, no...@atom.com says...
>Damn. I really miss it. =) Besides, I have played demos with a SB16
>that were made to run with a SB PRO. I really don't think they aren't
>compatible, I could be wrong, but out of the 30-40 DOS games I have, I
>don't have any that are only SB PRO compatible to test that anyway.
>This is not an issue for almost anyone considering a good sound card
>anyway.
The early SB16 cards seemed to have problems with SB Pro compatibility, but I
believe that was fixed before the AWE32 / SB32 / Blaster32 cards came out.
After finally talking to an SB tech support person (another story that I would
get flamed for so I won't explain) I found out that there are nearly one
hundred different versions of the SB16 on the market. While they are all sold
to the users as the SB16, they have many subtle differences to them. When they
ask you for info on the card, you have to get combine numbers from the frotn
and back of the card to make a whole new number. That is how they find out
which model ou really have.
no...@atom.com
>> > I would appreciate it if the soundcard only needed initialization on
>> >a cold boot and could then keep running on warm boots without much
>> >attention.
>> In most cases, it should.
>it OK to just not run it on every bootup? I thought in the doc's for
>the 3 disk set it said that it would detect if it didn't need to be
>run again, but I haven't noticed it skipping a OS load yet.
I recommend not using the DOS initialization in your autoexec. The 3
disk install will initialize MIDI as you boot to Win95 (I think it
does with Win3.x, but I don't remember for sure). You can notice this
by the hourglass that "blinks" as you start Win95 during the
initialization. The advantage of the 3 disk install's drivers is that
they allow you to exit to DOS and still have MIDI initialized (if you
don't reboot). A warm or cold reboot of your machine, in my
experience, will likely mean you'll need to re-initialize MIDI either
by booting first to Win95 and exiting to DOS or by running the DOS
initialization after booting to DOS. For running games from real mode
DOS, it is a good idea to write some batch files like this:
c:\tropez\dosapps\setupsnd /a330 /i9 oswf.mot
(if this is your setup)
And this:
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzmode -s
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix f=75 (DOS fm volume 1-100)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix f=off (DOS fm mute off)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix w=75 (DOS digital audio volume 1-100)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix w=off (DOS digital audio mute off)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix c=75 (DOS CD volume 1-100)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix c=off (DOS CD mute off)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix m=on (DOS mic mute on) (I think)
c:\tropez\dosapps\tzacmix l=on (Line-in mute on) (I think)
I can't remember these exactly. My docs where lost in Hurricane Opal
last year (three feet of water went through my house). I think this
is right, but I don't have the card in my machine right now. Check
your docs.
A batch file similar to the latter will need to be run before every
game you play in DOS if you want to be sure it will work correctly.
Many games reset the mixer after you run them. You may even need to
re-initialize MIDI again before running another game. You may also
want a separate batch file, like the latter, for each game, and then
you can set the mixer adjustments differently on each game so you are
sure the Tropez plays at the correct volume.
>> >and add new features. I bought my CD-R after I heard about the one
>> >from TB, and would'nt even consider it even if it was the same drive,
>> >SCSI card and software for a lower price. I dance from OS to OS
>> >entirely too often to keep supporting a company like that.
>> The TBS2040 (CD Master II) kit ships with Windows3, Windows95, and WindowsNT
>> drivers for the SCSI card. As well, the software - Corel CD Creator - runs on
>> all three platforms.
> What I mean is say something new comes out. Maybe even something
>from MS that will be required to run some of the apps I want to
>run. History has shown that TB really won't care to make their
>hardware work with it and claim that it works great in the environment
>it was sold for. Maybe we can't expect TB to keep up with every large
>development in the OS arena, so from now on I won't expect anything
>like that out of them.
This is true, but really, no company has been able to keep up with
Creative's SB cards in this respect. I was stuck for many months
without support for Win95 with my Tropez. This really is a major
point against not going with a SB card. However, it is true that this
was mostly during beta testing, but I have used Win95 since the
October 94' beta so it was a long battle. It would have saved me lots
of hassles if I would have went with a SB16+Roland to start with.
Maybe, with many new standards being set by MS that everyone is
adopting, we will see a change in this over the next year as everybody
catches up, but you have a good point.
no...@atom.com
>I used to own the Sound Blaster Awe32 (the orignal full version when
>it 1st came out) and it worked well. The problem was with the midi
>and older games that didn't support the Awe32 but did support general
>midi. 9 out of 10 I could not get the awe to play midi. Anyway, i
>returned the card and purchased the TB Tropez, which i'm very happy
>with. I suppose the tropez only works as sound blaster pro but
>considering that most games (at least the ones i play) have 8 bit 11hz
>digital samples does it really make a difference? (If i'm wrong about
>this someone please corret me on this.) Thus far, the only problems i
>digital sound.
That is why I bought my Tropez too.
I only know my AWE sounds better to me than my Tropez as far as DOS
digital audio is concerned in many of the games I have. If there is a
difference between 8 bit DOS digital audio played on an AWE and a
Tropez, I wouldn't know. Information from someone who "really"
understands the difference between SB16/32/AWE cards and SB PRO
compatible cards would really be welcome (concerning 8 bit playback).
Running DOS games in Win95 is very difficult with the Tropez. You may
try setting the DOS session to run with "prevent from detecting
windows" and then running Tzmode in the same session before you run
the game (and setupsnd if necessary). This will help DOS games work
better under Win95 "sometimes".
>oh well, not that big of a deal for me. i just start
>up dos mode or reboot. Anyway.. the tropez is wonderful card and i'm
>fully satasfied with it.
>>>> Swavek <<<
You know, I used to say the same thing to all my "computer" friends.
After buying an AWE, I realized using it is a whole lot easier. I
would say that exiting to DOS, waiting on MIDI initialization, and
having to cold boot when things weren't going right, has cost me days
worth of time as often as it has happened in the past year. I also
really enjoy now being able to play DOS games in Win95 while I
download off the net. I don't mind playing DOS games through Win95
since my computer is fast enough and has plenty of RAM now.
no...@atom.com
>>that about the Tropez before I bought it too. One of the reasons I
>>really like this web page on the AWE:
>
>>http://www.compart.fi/~mhjelt/awe/
>
>>is because he points out most of the AWE's bad points as well as the
>>good stuff. In fact, this is one hell of a web page for anyone with
>>an AWE or considering buying one. It is one of the best pages on the
>>net concerning sound cards in my book.
>
>information being rather old.
>--
>Fred Mah --- fm...@ecn.purdue.edu
>http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah
I just visited it a couple weeks ago for the first time. I still
think it is Well worth a visit. Maybe the links are old or something,
but I got a lot of useful information about the AWE by reading these
pages. Sorry Fred, I think it is still worth a visit. Anybody
reading the sound card newsgroups may find this site interesting.
Explain that statement Fred.
Frederick Y Mah
no...@atom.com writes:
>I just visited it a couple weeks ago for the first time. I still
>think it is Well worth a visit. Maybe the links are old or something,
>but I got a lot of useful information about the AWE by reading these
>pages. Sorry Fred, I think it is still worth a visit. Anybody
>reading the sound card newsgroups may find this site interesting.
>Explain that statement Fred.
It is full of usefull info, but regarding the tech. info,
Mathias has been saying to not read it yet till he updates things.
Joel Burgess
John Brand (joh...@hipsys.co.za) wrote:
: It it not clear to me why you claim th ONLY, since I celarly looked on
: the Box of an SB32 when they came out, and that box NEVER had the
: SoundFont logo, not stated ANYWHERE on the box that it had RAM expansion
: of any kind. This is MY experience and not a survey of Creative
: Technology.
I have the box of my SB32 here (original non-PnP) and it clearly says
on the back:
"Memory Subsystem (bold letters)
* Addings SIMMs will allow SoundFont technology
* Maximum downloadable sounds via SIMMs is 28MB
* You can add your own instruments and sounds to the card, with real-time
panning, reverb, chorus, and other MIDI control."
and elsewhere on the box...
"Sound Blaster 32 is fully upgradable to support SoundFont technology.
SoundFont technology allows you to add your own instruments and sounds to
the card. So you're never behind the times. Simply add standard SIMMs
to get all the functionality of our premier card SB AWE32 including
SoundFont technology."
and on the front of the box it says, nice and big,
"Upgradable to SoundBlaster AWE32 and SoundFont technology" with logos
for GM, Qsound, SoundFont, Windows, and SB32 underneath.
IMHO, they stated quite clearly that it was upgradable (and this is one
of the older SB32's!) TTYL
--
Joel Burgess
aa...@freenet.durham.org
Riccardo Losselli
On 31 May 1996 05:32:47 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior)
wrote:
>In article <31adf5f7...@nntpserver.vol.it>, ele...@mbox.vol.it says...
One thing is sure. I would LOVE a P'nP card with a P'nP disable option
:))
>>2) If you can bring with you a friend, possibly a musician, or someone
>>who has heard a real sound card or synth.
>
>Well, okay, but buy the one you like the sound of, not what they tell you is
>better. You will be the one listening to it.
Agree, but a musician has usually a better "musical ear" than any
"common" guy. When you test a card in a shop that isn't surely the
best place. I think that the only way to really test a card is to use
it for at least a week at home. Of course thi is not easily possible,
and a musician can hear imperfections on the patches of the card that
a "common" guy could miss because of the shop noise. Anyway this is
(IMO) just for cards and synth like Roland and Yamaha. You don't need
a musician to rate a CL card :)))
Mike Carrothers
In <31ADA4...@MCIMail.com> "Patrick R. Mullen"
>
> Patrick R. Mullen
> Dir. of Engineering
> Mullen Scientific Software
> 1686 State Route 69
> Parish, NY 13131
>
> (315) 625-4660
> prmu...@MCIMail.com
Pat-
I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
people (you included, "Creative Slobs??"), so I quit reading. Plus I do
a lot of traveling, so checking regularly is hard.
But, will I try to help people with ideas that I may have on why
something on their setup doesn't work.
Mike Carrothers
Creative Labs FAE
Ferro
David Gasior wrote:
>
> In article <31AC0D...@alpha.hut.fi>, nhal...@alpha.hut.fi says...
>
> >Which issue is it?
>
> Not sure, but it was 1995, so whichever issue has the Best of Year awards.
So you ment Tropez, not Tropez Plus.
BTW, have you improved the frequency response of line out in Tropez Plus
(compared to Tropez)? I mean the same magazine(6/95) gave Tropez worse
response than GUS Max's and a lot worse than AWE's.
I ask this because I'm still balancing between Tahiti and Tr. + ( so
you can answer honestly, money comes to your company anyway :-)).
--
Ferro /\/\/\ Dem proctus non pasficus,
nhal...@alpha.hut.fi \/\/\/ que si padre nauticum.
Ferro
David Gasior wrote:
>
> >wavetable card (perhaps selling the Rio and buying a new Yamaha or Roland
> >card with it).
>
> Well, I get in trouble for saying it, but I feel the Yamaha DB50XG is the
> better of the two all around.
At last I got the opportunity to test those cards with time.
And this comment is for midi musicians: it's only a matter of taste
which one you find better. Some sounds worked better in Yamaha and some
in Roland. The effects were good in both. Neither one is perfect. To
semiprofessionals: don't expect too much, both work well but don't
shine. To amateurs: both are excellent.
The Lord Leto II
In article <31ae793a...@news.netnitco.net> swa...@netnitco.net (Swavek) writes:
>I used to own the Sound Blaster Awe32 (the orignal full version when
>it 1st came out) and it worked well. The problem was with the midi
>and older games that didn't support the Awe32 but did support general
>midi. 9 out of 10 I could not get the awe to play midi. Anyway, i
>returned the card and purchased the TB Tropez, which i'm very happy
>with. I suppose the tropez only works as sound blaster pro but
>considering that most games (at least the ones i play) have 8 bit 11hz
>digital samples does it really make a difference? (If i'm wrong about
>this someone please corret me on this.) Thus far, the only problems i
You're for the most part right -- even the Doom games and clones have
only 8 bit sounds. Quake will have 16-bit sounds, though. And
Descent 2 might have 22khz sounds -- it's got an option for it, but
whenever I use it, it uses the same samples an octave higher :).
/ THE LORD LETO II -- GOD EMPEROR OF ARRAKIS \ Tremble |
/"Looks like you're on the Shores of Hell. The\ In |
/------- only way out is through." - Doom -------\ Fear |
/ "Where it grows on trees but never, never blooms \ Quake |
/ Where it hurts the least for whoever saw it first -\ Will |
/ First to go, and the last to know" -- Faith No More -\ Come |
/-------t951%nemomus...@academic.nemostate.edu-------\ Soon|
Jeff Glatt
>The post made it clear that the AWE's DOS digital audio is 16 bit and the
>Tropez's DOS SB PRO emulation is only 8 bit, I think it is fair to say
>that my "experience" is that the AWE's DOS digital audio sounds better
>on many of my games. I don't understand Nyquist's theorem
And you don't have to, since its irrelevant to what is being
discussed. The Nyquist Theorem has to do with the sample rate, not bit
resolution. I don't know why the other guy brought it up
Greg Cisko
In article <4onqjh$s...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mich...@ix.netcom.com(Mike Carrothers ) writes:
>Pat-
>
>I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
>however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
>read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
>people (you included, "Creative Slobs??"), so I quit reading. Plus I do
I feel that is unfortunate. I would prefer to have a Creative product. Because
it is the industry standard for the gamer. Unfortunately the only card I have
found that gives me what I want (soundwise) is the Ensoniq Soundscape. Which...
Has one or two troubles with SB emulation. If the NEW standard were ever the
Ensoniq and the card had universal support, I would be very happy. Most games
now do have native support for the "E". But I am beta testing one game which
has SB only, so your emulation better be on the ball :-) It is for this
reason that I have kept my SB Pro v2.0 in my system. So I am a paying customer.
With that, I would like to ask a couple of questions of Creative Labs soundcard
designs.
1) Why have you not produced a soundcard with the same features as the Ensoniq?
(Or other cards with similar features.) Namely a good wavetable and clean 16-bit
digital. This always puzzled me.
2) Do you have any cards that meet my above criteria. An AWE32 is not it I'm, affraid.
I am talking about something that does not require a TSR for G-MIDI in older games.
And good wavetable sounds.
With WIN95 I would expect that these issues are not so important. But I had
always wondered why creative never attempted to meet this market demand.
Thanks,
Greg Cisko
Timothy P. Kelley
On 1 Jun 1996 13:07:10 GMT, ci...@d0tokensun.fnal.gov (Greg Cisko) wrote:
>In article <4onqjh$s...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mich...@ix.netcom.com(Mike Carrothers ) writes:
>
>>Pat-
>>
>>I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
>>however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
>>read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
>>people (you included, "Creative Slobs??"), so I quit reading. Plus I do
>
>I feel that is unfortunate. I would prefer to have a Creative product. Because
>it is the industry standard for the gamer. Unfortunately the only card I have
>found that gives me what I want (soundwise) is the Ensoniq Soundscape. Which...
>Has one or two troubles with SB emulation. If the NEW standard were ever the
>Ensoniq and the card had universal support, I would be very happy. Most games
>now do have native support for the "E". But I am beta testing one game which
>has SB only, so your emulation better be on the ball :-) It is for this
>reason that I have kept my SB Pro v2.0 in my system. So I am a paying customer.
The Ensoniq is getting even betterwith Win95; you can use the effects
processor on games if set up right. This sounds quite incredible; not
something one can do with a SB. ES2 sounds *very impressive* with a little
reverb added - so will Quake I'll wager.
=====================================
Tim Kelley
tke...@ix.netcom.com
Timothy P. Kelley
On 31 May 1996 05:28:31 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>Well, I get in trouble for saying it, but I feel the Yamaha DB50XG is the
>better of the two all around.
Hi David,
What about the Kurzweil MASSies chip TB will be (err... is rumored to be)
using in the Pinnacle? I have a Summit now (uses the MASS) and it sounds
quite nice compared to SC-xx or DB50XG.
=====================================
Tim Kelley
tke...@ix.netcom.com
Riccardo Losselli
On 31 May 1996 22:07:45 GMT, mich...@ix.netcom.com(Mike Carrothers )
wrote:
>Pat-
>
>I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
>however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
>read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
>people (you included, "Creative Slobs??"), so I quit reading.
Mike, I think i can be included among those who trashed CL products.
Anyway I don't think this is my problem or Pat's. Every time Pat
replyed to someone he brought his REAL experience with the cards they
have in the lab, and the ideas he has about CL products are made by
the use of the card, not by prejudice. If you at CL don't want people
like us that tell to any who asks that CL cards sound very bad
compared to a serious card (Roland , Yamaha) or don't have a technical
advantage over other cards in their price range (the GUS P'nP for
example), try to do a GOOD card, and don't market a mid-low end card
as the AWE, as a high end card. Many people think, by your
advertisements, that AWE is the top, and as soon they hear a Roland
they realize they've been fooled. Make a real card (if you can) and
you won't hear anymore any Creative Slobs, Shit Blaster, Sound Masher,
AWEful 32 and all the rest. I think it's much more honest from Pat and
other to tell what people will get if they buy a CL card than telling
them : Go, rush out and buy it.
Patrick R. Mullen
Matt Kellner wrote:
[text deleted]
> What's your opinion about the Roland and Yamaha cards vs. the Rio? I
> like the patchset in the Rio (with the possible exception of some of the
> drum programs and the chorus sounds), but because of the stability
> problems I'm having with the thing, I'm thinking of just getting a new
> wavetable card (perhaps selling the Rio and buying a new Yamaha or Roland
> card with it).
Matt:
What do you mean by RIO "stability problems" ? We have a RIO, and I haven't seen it go "unstable" any time
soon...
Patrick R. Mullen
Riccardo Losselli wrote:
[text deleted]
> Agree, but a musician has usually a better "musical ear" than any
> "common" guy. When you test a card in a shop that isn't surely the
> best place. I think that the only way to really test a card is to use
> it for at least a week at home. Of course thi is not easily possible,
> and a musician can hear imperfections on the patches of the card that
> a "common" guy could miss because of the shop noise. Anyway this is
> (IMO) just for cards and synth like Roland and Yamaha. You don't need
> a musician to rate a CL card :)))
Ricky:
The other class of people who are good at "hearing" the differences between soundcards are people in the sonar
business. I can "hear" all the way up to bat squeeks (more like a "feeling" to be honest), and I can memorize
any acoustic passage I hear (I have a weird memory: it seems to collect all kinds of audio & music trash --
not useful for much, but I can type this E-Mail and play-back in my mind any piece of music I've heard --
saves having to buy CD's I guess...). My hearing was tested at the Bendix Ocean Engineering sonar lab,
and was found to be responsive well beyond the normal human hearing range. I've put this effect to some good
use in the soundcard audio trade.
Sonar operators are not trained -- they're born to the job, and worth their weight in gold. It's not a
coincidence that such people have a tendency to end up in the sound & music industry...
A quick point: there are such things as "deaf" musicians, but I don't think you'll find many active sonar
operators with hearing disorders!
Finaly, keep in mind that the hearing of the "average Joe" is what is important to consider when selling
soundcards: making souncards for people (?) with the hearing of flipper (or the musical inclinations of a
modern day Mozart) is NOT the point! The "man on the street" who is ultimately going to BUY the product (and
not spend all his time reviewing it criticaly for the press) is the person that has to be "turned on" by the
soundcard they're considering to buy. If this weren't true, the original "Sound Masher" would never have sold
in such large numbers.
Sometimes I think that those of us who are close to the audio/sound/music business tend to over-critique the
soundcard industry.
Patrick R. Mullen
Mike Carrothers wrote:
>
> Pat-
>
> I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
> however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
> read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
> a lot of traveling, so checking regularly is hard.
>
> But, will I try to help people with ideas that I may have on why
> something on their setup doesn't work.
>
> Mike Carrothers
> Creative Labs FAE
Mike: Ouch!
I stand naked and accused of "mud slinging", and plead "guilty as
charged" in this instance. I'll stop saying "Creative Slobs" if you'll
spend the time helping-out with Creative Labs problems.
Just to show we're not entirely anti-Creative, I would like to point-out
that we have been spending a lot of time on this newsgroup encouraging
people to use the S/P-DIF interface on the AWE-32 family as an
alternative to using the noiser analog line-out. To quote myself --
"the the music we have obtained from the AWE S/P-DIF interface is nearly
pro-quality"... and so on.
Strangely, Creative Labs has never to my knowledge ever come out with a
DAP (Digital to Analog Amp) that could be used with the S/P-DIF (we use
a Sony DAP that costs over $2000, and which we "borrowed" from a
neighboring audio firm). Why not start a thread concerning how to make
use of the S/P-DIF audio? The AWE is the only soundcard in its price
range that supports digital I/O, and Creative is to be commended for
supporting S/P-DIF since 1994.
If you feel the Internet soundcard newsgroup is somehow an
"anti-Creative" forum for competing soundcard companies, you're
mistaken. The majority of questions that come-up on this board concern
your company's products. So far, though, there has been no "official"
Creative Labs involvement -- at least as far as I can tell.
But -- keep in mind -- until David Gasior of Turtle Beach joined the
fray (and picked-up his quota of battle scars), most of the comments
regarding Turtle Beach were highly negative. Once Davis waded in, and
began to show people how to solve their TB problems, the "Turtle Sucks"
comments began to fade away. Now, thanks to largely to David, Turtle
Beach products are seeing a sales resurgence.
So, if you want to make some positive contributions to the soundcard
newsgroup, I'd like to welcome you to the battle zone.
And I *promise* NOT to say "Creative Slobs" ever again...
Cheers!
Patrick R. Mullen
Dir. of Engineering
Mullen Scientific Software
1686 State Route 69
Parish, NY 13131
(315) 625-4660
prmu...@MCIMail.com
P.S. -- I *do* reserve the right to say "Sound Masher", which is a
copyrighted (c) expression of MSS.
;-)
Patrick R. Mullen
no...@atom.com wrote:
>
> >no...@atom.com wrote:
> >
> >[long "I hate Tropez" message]
> >
> >Novak:
> >
> >Since you stuck your Tropez on the shelf, would you be interested in
> >perhaps donating it to our soundcard lab? I'd be interested in seeing
> >how the older Tropez compares to the new Tropez Plus.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Patrick R. Mullen
> > Dir. of Engineering
> > Mullen Scientific Software
> > 1686 State Route 69
> > Parish, NY 13131
> >
> > (315) 625-4660
> > prmu...@MCIMail.com
>
> address here. Criticism and hate are two different things. Just
> because I am attacking an all mighty Turtle Beach product doesn't make
> me the bad guy. That wasn't a blind bashing of the Tropez or a flame.
> That was an account of all the problems I had with it. It looked like
> it was a bashing because I had so many problems. I didn't even list
> all of the problems I had...
[text deleted]
Novak (what's your real name anyway?):
I wasn't jumping on you: I posted a simple (and serious) question: if you don't like your Tropez (or just
aren't interested in using it anymore), would you be interested in donating it to our lab? If you want to
sell it instead, just give me a price. Nobody really thinks you're "bashing" the Tropez, but you're the one
who said you had put your Tropez on the shelf. I routinely re-sale computer gear when it gets too old or out
of date.
If you're interested in the Mediatrix Audiotrix-Pro and CrystaLake Multimedia CLMI 140, check out their web
sites (www.mediatrix.com and www.crystalake.com). Both cards use 4-layer shielded board designs, and filtered
ISA Bus power to prevent peripheral cross-chatter. These boards are used in the lab here every day, and they
each have their pros and cons. I like to think of the AT-Pro as a kitchen-sink "Engineer's Soundcard", and
the CLMI 140 as the only perfect example of PnP that works (the CLMI 140 is an excellent music machine as
well). The web sites I mentioned contain more detailed information, and are worth persuing.
Although you had problems with the Tropez, you should definately have a look at the Tropez Plus: we'll be
writing some interesting software for this card soon, and feel that the Plus is a neat board. Until I got my
Tropez Plus this week into the lab, I thought 1996 was going to be a dull year for the soundcard industry...
Finaly, a quick question: you seem to like the AWE -- have you tried the S/P-DIF connector yet? Hook the
S/P-DIF up to a DAP and you get near-pro quality EMU-8000 music out of the machine (assuming you have 8 MBytes
of sample RAM and the 8 Mbyte EMU GM soundfonts).
Komsomol
In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960530...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Matt Kellner <mkel...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>What's your opinion about the Roland and Yamaha cards vs. the Rio? I
>like the patchset in the Rio (with the possible exception of some of the
>drum programs and the chorus sounds), but because of the stability
>problems I'm having with the thing, I'm thinking of just getting a new
>wavetable card (perhaps selling the Rio and buying a new Yamaha or Roland
>card with it).
>
I've owned a RIO and a MAUI. At present I own a Sound Canvas External Module and
a DB50XG.
IMHO both the Roland & the Yamaha Have much better sound quality and a lot more
features than the RIO. The RIO includes a standard GM set of 128 instruments.
The Yamaha includes approx 600+ different instruments, and the Roland (SCD-15
only)approx 300+. The Roland has separate reverb & chorus levels for each
channel, the Yamaha separate reverb, chorus and an "insertion" effect. The
insertion effects are fantastic. They include delays, echos, flangers,
distortions, amp simulations, etc, and all are completely programmable. GS mode
on the Roland and XG modes on the Yamaha offer a number of ways to control
various parameters via continuous controller, the XG having a greater number of
options.
A nice feature of the RIO is that you can use the wavepatch program to program
new banks of individual instruments using the ROM wavetables as sources for new
instrument patches. If you are into synthesis this is a powerful feature. The
only shortcoming of the RIO is that it does not include a resonant filter, which
is important to some synthesists.
The Roland and Yamaha only allow "part" or channel based editing. You can't
program individual instrument patches. You do get control over envelopes, filter
cutoff & resonance, and modulation, but if make any changes to a part, and
change the instrument, you changes are applied to the new instrument. That can
be a bit of a pain sometimes.
After playing with the Yamaha & the Roland for a long time, I've come to the
conclusion they are both excellent but different sounding cards. A MIDI file
programmed specifically for a Roland sometimes doesn't sound right when played
back on a Yamaha (and vice versa.) If your main purpose is playing back other
people's work and current multimedia MIDI tracks, the Roland might be a better
choice since most current work is produced by composers with Roland equipment.
The Yamaha has more instruments and much better effects. I prefer it over the
Roland when I'm working on original compositions.
David Gasior
In article <31b04cbd...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>What about the Kurzweil MASSies chip TB will be (err... is rumored to be)
>using in the Pinnacle? I have a Summit now (uses the MASS) and it sounds
>quite nice compared to SC-xx or DB50XG.
Well, we have samples that Kurzweil has sent us, but we have yet to hear it on
the board yet. That board should arrive to us this month. I was not that
impressed with the Kurzweil chip compared to the Yamaha, but it, too, blows the
WaveFront sounds away. The 2meg set (which we are using - same as Summit?) is
well-rounded. The 6meg set has amazing pianos (even better than Yamaha, I
think) but that is really all that shines in that one which is why we went with
the 2meg set.
David Gasior
In article <31AEF5...@alpha.hut.fi>, nhal...@alpha.hut.fi says...
>So you ment Tropez, not Tropez Plus.
Yes, they will be reviewing the Tropez Plus in this year's sound card roundup
which will be done in August, I believe.
>BTW, have you improved the frequency response of line out in Tropez Plus
>(compared to Tropez)? I mean the same magazine(6/95) gave Tropez worse
>response than GUS Max's and a lot worse than AWE's.
I do believe it is improved over the Tropez, but not as great as the Tahiti.
Even with that less than amazing test, it still didn't keep the Tropez out of
the top tier of sound cards. The top tier was comprised of only the Monterey
and the Tropez.
Two_Scooters
I am currently using the Rio (in a Monterey) and a Yamaha SW60XG. I prefer
the Rio's GM set over the Yamaha's hands down.
- Chris Keller
<stuff deleted>
>>What's your opinion about the Roland and Yamaha cards vs. the Rio?
Timothy P. Kelley
On 2 Jun 1996 02:24:58 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>In article <31b04cbd...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>>What about the Kurzweil MASSies chip TB will be (err... is rumored to be)
>>using in the Pinnacle? I have a Summit now (uses the MASS) and it sounds
>>quite nice compared to SC-xx or DB50XG.
>Well, we have samples that Kurzweil has sent us, but we have yet to hear it on
>the board yet. That board should arrive to us this month. I was not that
>impressed with the Kurzweil chip compared to the Yamaha, but it, too, blows the
>WaveFront sounds away. The 2meg set (which we are using - same as Summit?)
The summit uses ~10MB samples in 6MB ROM. This is some proprietary
compression method used by Kurzweil (acc. to AVM). AVM will not state how
much memory the samples take up, only that they are "more than 10
megabytes". I guess like any other chip, it needs a lot of memory to
really open up and sound good. It sounds fantastic on the Summit.
>well-rounded. The 6meg set has amazing pianos (even better than Yamaha, I
>think) but that is really all that shines in that one which is why we went with
>the 2meg set.
I think the pianos sound very good (largely indistinguishable from the real
thing), but so do most of the other instruments; at least in respect to
other synthesizers in its class. I have not had the opportunity to really
sit down and listen to the Yamaha, but most MASS patches sound more
realistic than the sound canvas ones. I think the MASSies chip has great
promise - *especially* if the rumors (ahem!) that it will be patch
compatible with the K2000 are true.
=====================================
Tim Kelley
tke...@ix.netcom.com
The Grim Reaper
In article <31B0F6...@MCIMail.com>, prmu...@MCIMail.com says...
>
>Patrick R. Mullen
>Dir. of Engineering
>Mullen Scientific Software
>1686 State Route 69
>Parish, NY 13131
>
>(315) 625-4660
>prmu...@MCIMail.com
>
>copyrighted (c) expression of MSS.
>
>;-)
Along the same line, the line out from the AWE32 and SB32 series is pretty
clean (once again verified from the Audio Precision equipment). If you don't
care for the on board amps, and you won't, use the line out into some high
quility equipment.
--
Grim.
"I don't think you understand, I am The Grim Reaper."
Komsomol
In article <31B0F0...@MCIMail.com>,
"Patrick R. Mullen" <prmu...@MCIMail.com> wrote:
>
>Sometimes I think that those of us who are close to the audio/sound/music
business tend to over-critique the
>soundcard industry.
>
manufacturers invite such criticism by their outlandish advertising. When
manufacturers make claims like "CD-Quality Sound" and "sound quality that far
surpasses any existing professional music keyboard instruments" on their boxes
and fail to deliver on their promises, they shouldn't be surprised when there's
some backlash.
I'll admit that what I really want is a K2000s (professional quality synthesis,
wavetable sound, and sampling) on a card. And I want the card to be compatible
with every past, present & future standard known to the computing world. I'd
like to make my computer into an all-in-one music workstation. That appears to
be a far off dream based upon the current state of affairs in the soundcard
industry, but if you read the advertising on a lot of boxes, you would believe
that type of card is already on the market.
K
David Gasior
In article <31b14c94...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, tke...@ix.netcom.com says...
>The summit uses ~10MB samples in 6MB ROM. This is some proprietary
>compression method used by Kurzweil (acc. to AVM). AVM will not state how
>much memory the samples take up, only that they are "more than 10
>megabytes". I guess like any other chip, it needs a lot of memory to
>really open up and sound good. It sounds fantastic on the Summit.
Okay, they do have two samle sets as far as I know. The 2meg and 6meg. I
guess that the 6meg is the compressed 10meg version as you mentioned.
Komsomol
>
>I think the pianos sound very good (largely indistinguishable from the real
>thing), but so do most of the other instruments; at least in respect to
>other synthesizers in its class. I have not had the opportunity to really
>sit down and listen to the Yamaha, but most MASS patches sound more
>realistic than the sound canvas ones. I think the MASSies chip has great
>promise - *especially* if the rumors (ahem!) that it will be patch
>compatible with the K2000 are true.
>=====================================
>
>Tim Kelley
>tke...@ix.netcom.com
Tim,
Can the patches be edited on the Summit? If yes, can they be edited by
instrument or only by "part"?
What provision does the Summit have for continuous controllers? Does it respond
to GS or XG mode?
How many instruments & drumsets does the Summit have?
If the MASS chip to be used on the Pinnacle would indeed be K2000 patch
compatible and patch programmable, that would make the Pinnacle a very
attractive card for many musicians.
no...@atom.com
>>Pat-
>>
>>I would be happy to help people with problems with their SB products,
>>however, I don't read this newsgroup very regulary anymore. I used to
>>read it evryday, but got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
>>people (you included, "Creative Slobs??"), so I quit reading.
>Mike, I think i can be included among those who trashed CL products.
>Anyway I don't think this is my problem or Pat's. Every time Pat
>replyed to someone he brought his REAL experience with the cards they
>have in the lab, and the ideas he has about CL products are made by
>the use of the card, not by prejudice.
No it isn't your problem, it is everyone else's problem who reads
these newsgroups. It would be great to have someone from CL post
regularly to these newsgroups. I would like to ask "how do the older
and newer chipsets differ?" and "what are CL's plans for the AWE?". I
guess this isn't possible since some people insist on useless name
calling.
>If you at CL don't want people
>like us that tell to any who asks that CL cards sound very bad
>compared to a serious card (Roland , Yamaha) or don't have a technical
>advantage over other cards in their price range (the GUS P'nP for
>example), try to do a GOOD card, and don't market a mid-low end card
>as the AWE, as a high end card.
Often people in these newsgroups are comparing apples and oranges.
Roland and Yamaha cards are not even comparable to SB cards since none
of them offer SB compatibility. To use Roland or Yamaha stuff with
games means also using a SB compatible card. The SB16/AWE card is
generally considered to be the best SB compatible host card for a
daughter board. I am planing to buy both a Roland and Yamaha daughter
board to go on my AWE. Just try doing that with a GUS, Tropez+, CLMI
140, or AT PRO. You can use these cards with Roland and Yamaha stuff,
but that would mean a separate host board, a stand alone ISA board, or
an external synth which are all more expensive and more difficult to
setup under many circumstances.
It also seems to me that some of the people who post about not liking
SB cards think that everyone considering buying one is interested in
semi-professional hard drive recording and super quiet windows
playback. This has to be what everyone is referring to when they say
the SB16/AWE cards are noisy, and these things are nice to have, but
for most people, these aren't worth having if it means costing more
and possibly having more compatibility or configuration problems. DOS
digital audio playback in games could be considered superior on the
SB16/AWE to any other card, and while windows playback and recording
is not as quiet as some cards, it is perfectly fine for most people.
Often, people slamming SB cards are comparing SB16s/AWEs to much more
expensive cards such as the Tahiti, CardD, and other multi ISA card
arrangements. If you insist on slamming SB cards, why not compare
them to something they are comparable to like another SB compatible
card?
>Many people think, by your
>advertisements, that AWE is the top, and as soon they hear a Roland
>they realize they've been fooled.
Creative's advertisements make people think that the AWE is top? I
don't think so. I would hope that people don't believe everything
they read on a box or see in an advertisement. I never thought the
AWE was very good until I bought one. I bought one at Circuit City
for $199US, thinking I would return it before 30 days. Hell, being a
local area reseller, I could have bought one for $50 bucks cheaper,
but I didn't want to wait. I figured 30 days would be long enough to
find something better. That was two months ago. I was very surprised
by how easy it was to like this card and how easy it was to use.
>Make a real card (if you can) and
>you won't hear anymore any Creative Slobs, Shit Blaster, Sound Masher,
>AWEful 32 and all the rest. I think it's much more honest from Pat and
>other to tell what people will get if they buy a CL card than telling
>them : Go, rush out and buy it.
Saying stuff like that sounds smartass to me, but then again it
doesn't bother me if it is or isn't. I think "Creative Slobs" and
other people who have "shit blasters" might think differently. I
don't like my Tropez, but I don't constantly refer to it as the
"Poopez". =)
Ricky, it doesn't make any sense to me that you have to slam SB cards,
while liking the GUS cards. A SB card with a good daughter board
sounds way better to me than a GUS, and I don't have to put up with a
card that is not as compatible and harder to use. It is nice to have
true 16 bit full duplex and hardware MOD playback on a GUS, but that
is all I can say for it.
>Bye,
>Ricky
>
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Keeper of Gus Mailing Lists Maker of UltraSoundCanvas set|
>| Get a Life.... Get a GUS!!!! |
>|To subscribe to the gus mailing list send me a mail with in the body:|
>| subscribe gus-general |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
_ __ __
/ | / / ____ _ __ ____ _ / /__
/ |/ / / __ \ | / // __ `/ / //_/
/ /| / / /_/ / |/ // /_/ / / ,<
/_/ |_/ \____/|___/ \__,_/ /_/|_|
Jeff Glatt
>> got tired of reading posts trashing Creative from
>> people (you included, "Creative Slobs??")
>I stand naked and accused of "mud slinging"
That's liable to happen when you frequent those nude female
mud-wrestling places.
>If you feel the Internet soundcard newsgroup is somehow an
>"anti-Creative" forum for competing soundcard companies, you're
>mistaken.
Well, he's not *that* mistaken. But then, CL is not only a market
leader, but also a company that specializes in cheaper cards, so it's
inevitable that the company is going to be a target for snide comments
from Roland snobs like me.
>The majority of questions that come-up on this board concern
>your company's products.
Boy, do they ever. Like, "Do you guys ever use the same sound chip in
two or more cards with the same model #?".
>So far, though, there has been no "official"
>Creative Labs involvement -- at least as far as I can tell.
It was probably due to the death threats received from SB Plug And
Play owners
Jeff Glatt
>Saying stuff like that sounds smartass to me, but then again it
>doesn't bother me if it is or isn't. I think "Creative Slobs" and
>other people who have "shit blasters" might think differently. I
>don't like my Tropez, but I don't constantly refer to it as the
>"Poopez". =)
As well you shouldn't. It's the Tro-piss.
I should note that I'm kidding. I sense that David doesn't like me
already (even though I've helped sell a few folks on TB cards -- but
not the cheap stuff like the Tropez though -- I don't see much point
to that)
no...@atom.com
>> >[long "I hate Tropez" message]
>> >
>> >Novak:
>> >
>> >Since you stuck your Tropez on the shelf, would you be interested in
>> >perhaps donating it to our soundcard lab? I'd be interested in seeing
>> >how the older Tropez compares to the new Tropez Plus.
>> >
>> >
>> > Patrick R. Mullen
>> > Dir. of Engineering
>> > Mullen Scientific Software
>> > 1686 State Route 69
>> > Parish, NY 13131
>> >
>> > (315) 625-4660
>> > prmu...@MCIMail.com
>>
>> address here. Criticism and hate are two different things. Just
>> because I am attacking an all mighty Turtle Beach product doesn't make
>> me the bad guy. That wasn't a blind bashing of the Tropez or a flame.
>> That was an account of all the problems I had with it. It looked like
>> it was a bashing because I had so many problems. I didn't even list
>> all of the problems I had...
>
>[text deleted]
>
>Novak (what's your real name anyway?):
My real name is Scott Cole. You can find this out if you finger my
email account. I just don't post it.
>I wasn't jumping on you: I posted a simple (and serious) question: if you don't like your Tropez (or just
>aren't interested in using it anymore), would you be interested in donating it to our lab? If you want to
>sell it instead, just give me a price. Nobody really thinks you're "bashing" the Tropez, but you're the one
>who said you had put your Tropez on the shelf. I routinely re-sale computer gear when it gets too old or out
>of date.
I know you weren't jumping on me Pat. Your post just brought what I
said to mind, that is all.
Sorry Pat, I can still sell it for some amount of money. It isn't
worth it to me to send it to you. I'd rather give it to some kid who
doesn't even have a sound card if I was going to give it away.
>If you're interested in the Mediatrix Audiotrix-Pro and CrystaLake Multimedia CLMI 140, check out their web
>sites (www.mediatrix.com and www.crystalake.com). Both cards use 4-layer shielded board designs, and filtered
>ISA Bus power to prevent peripheral cross-chatter. These boards are used in the lab here every day, and they
>each have their pros and cons. I like to think of the AT-Pro as a kitchen-sink "Engineer's Soundcard", and
>the CLMI 140 as the only perfect example of PnP that works (the CLMI 140 is an excellent music machine as
>well). The web sites I mentioned contain more detailed information, and are worth persuing.
I have looked at these sites, but it is hard to get any "gritty" facts
about these products there. I would really like to see someone post
the potential problems that they have run into when buying these
cards. I haven't seen but a handful of posts detailing anything I
don't already know from their companies web sites. I don't rely on
technical information too much. Technically the GUS PNP looks great,
but I wouldn't own one. Posts detailing people's experiences with
these cards are very few. They look pretty good from what little I
have seen and read, but it is going to take a lot for me to give up my
AWE. I'm tired of looking for greener pastures. I'm going to stick
to what works for me.
>Although you had problems with the Tropez, you should definately have a look at the Tropez Plus: we'll be
>writing some interesting software for this card soon, and feel that the Plus is a neat board. Until I got my
>Tropez Plus this week into the lab, I thought 1996 was going to be a dull year for the soundcard industry...
I think it could be a great card if.....
I'm keepin an eye on it. That's for sure.
>Finaly, a quick question: you seem to like the AWE -- have you tried the S/P-DIF connector yet? Hook the
>S/P-DIF up to a DAP and you get near-pro quality EMU-8000 music out of the machine (assuming you have 8 MBytes
>of sample RAM and the 8 Mbyte EMU GM soundfonts).
No, I haven't tried the connector. It doesn't seem worth it to me to
buy a DAC for what I do with the card. What do you think of the one
made by Audio Alchemy that sells for around $200US? Would this do
everything I would need it to, or would there be more expense?
BTW, check out another post of mine. The header reads:
Re: Upgrade AWE32 RAM or get Daughter Board?
Maybe you can help.
Sean Kellner
In article <4olvpl$5...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) writes:
>
> In article <4ok6l5$4...@mailgate.lexis-nexis.com>, se...@lexis-nexis.com says...
>
> > Is there a specific version of the setup program that I need or is
> >it OK to just not run it on every bootup? I thought in the doc's for
> >the 3 disk set it said that it would detect if it didn't need to be
> >run again, but I haven't noticed it skipping a OS load yet.
>
> The idea is if your go into Windows and load the OS and then go to DOS, you
> don't need to run SETUPSND. If you go back into Windows, it should not load
> the OS again. This applies to version 1.3 and above.
>
OK, thanks for the info.
> > What I mean is say something new comes out. Maybe even something
> >from MS that will be required to run some of the apps I want to
> >run. History has shown that TB really won't care to make their
> >hardware work with it and claim that it works great in the environment
> >it was sold for. Maybe we can't expect TB to keep up with every large
> >development in the OS arena, so from now on I won't expect anything
> >like that out of them.
>
> I'm not going to lie and say we do, but we cannot develop for every single
> operating system that comes out. If that is all you want, then maybe you
> should go with Creative Labs because most everyone develops drivers for SB
But that is not all I want, I also want the sound quality that my
Tropez delivers when it's happy. Sigh. I guess I really want it all.
> products. But even from the point of the consumer, I still feel that if you
> move to another operating system, then you should expect that some of your
> hardware and software will not be able to carried over. I spent a hell of a
> lot more than $89 to upgrade to Windows95. But it was my decision to go to
> Windows95. The items that would not work I sold, and used the money to help
> pay for the new stuff. That is the computer industry.
I sort of agree here, but not totally. I can't say that I expect a
soundcard that claims 101% Compatible with games to work with say, a
new version of Solaris. On the other hand, this whole Win 95 thing is
supposedly the way things are going to be for games, and there are
already games out that are not playable if you want sound from a
Tropez. It's not like Win 95 was a secret, or difficult to get ahold
of before release.
And sorry, I fail to see what should make modern day hardware fail
on an OS for any other reason that non-support. I have yet to see any
"Make it work with Win 95" jumpers necessary on any other HW yet. It's
pretty much make a driver and run with it. As far as I can tell, the
only reason any device is not supported under Linux is that a company
won't tell someone about the HW without a NDA. All it takes is a
knowledgeable person and a little time. Even some stuff (Par Zip drive
for instance) got supported without help from the manufacturer.
Maybe I just need a decent reason before I throw out hardware (I
still have my Amiga 3000 up and running, fer instance). And as for the
computer industry, it moves too fast for me to buy products from a
company who isn't able to support their products through something as
big as Win 95. Like you said, maybe I just have to throw out the
Tropez and get something different.
>
> As for not supporting our older products, all of our major sound cards will
> have native Windows95 drivers by the end of June. And all of them continue to
> work well (with the exception of the AudioAdvantage) in Windows95. Now that MS
> has released its decision to go with the NT model for sound card drivers, we
> are looking at NT drivers, and already have a beta driver for our WaveFront
> chip, which will cover the MIDI portion of our Tropez, Maui, and Tropez Plus
> sound cards. HallSound Systems has drivers for the entire Multisound line.
> This means again, that all of our sound cards will be supported in WindowsNT.
> What else would you like?
Do you really want to know what else I would like for my Tropez?
1. Native windows drivers for the Tropez by the end of Aug 95. First
of 96 would have been great, that Memorial day thing would have been
adequate. Mostly I want this gaming sound card to work with all of the
games I own.
2. I want to know how to fix that weird problem I have with my Tropez
where upon boot-up a game will run damn slow and have extremely slow
sound playback till I do something goofy like change the Need For
Speed sound selector away from 16 bit stereo. Yes, I can change it
right back, but why is that step necessary?? Is it an initialization
thing (the install program runs fine every time for instance) or what?
3. I want to be able to plug my microphone in that works on every
other sound input device I've tried. I know, I need to find a 600 ohm
mic, still ain't found one.
4. I want a way that I can play CD's from either my CD-ROM or my
CD-R and have it play from my soundcard. Even if I have to build
something myself, is there any way to do this?
5. I want TB to give out info on the card so I can use it under Linux
without having a pop before and after every sound.
6. I want a Line Out as well as a Speaker Out so I can leave the
Tropez hooked up to my stereo and my little speakers so I don't have to
reach behind my computer to change which one gets sound.
7. I would like some clarity on the current driver situation with Win
95. Which of the numerous driver packages are we supposed to use for
best results? When will that new one be ready? Are we going to have to
wait additional time after it's done till someone is able to give it
to us? Can I use whatever is currently available if I don't complain a
peep about it to anyone?
8. I would really like to be able to play old DOS games in Win 95
that want SB Pro support, that part of the new driver sounds really
cool. Can a program (say an old game) see the card as a SB Pro while
another (say the Win 95 media player) see's it as a Tropez? Or are Win
95 system sounds disabled while a game is using SB mode or are they
played in 8 bit SB mode?
9. I would like the Diamond MultiMedia equivalent to Mr. Gasior to
take out my frustrations on about my Stealth 64. At least these are
the only two components of my system that decided to take their time
on real Win 95 support.
10. Finally, I would like to thank Mr. Gasior for being here online
answering questions and giving updates on TB products. I may not
always be courteous, or knowledgeable about spelling, but I appreciate
the time you spend on here.
--
Sean "Not Matt" Kellner
se...@lexis-nexis.com
no...@atom.com
>>Saying stuff like that sounds smartass to me, but then again it
>>doesn't bother me if it is or isn't. I think "Creative Slobs" and
>>other people who have "shit blasters" might think differently. I
>>don't like my Tropez, but I don't constantly refer to it as the
>>"Poopez". =)
>
>
No actually it would be the "Poopez". The "ez" in Tropez is
pronounced ay. So out of this I get Poop-ay or Poopy. ;)
Ok that's it. No more shit name calling by me. =)
Kinda funny don't you think? Sorry David. :(
>I should note that I'm kidding. I sense that David doesn't like me
>already (even though I've helped sell a few folks on TB cards -- but
>not the cheap stuff like the Tropez though -- I don't see much point
>to that)
_ __ __
no...@atom.com
>>So far, though, there has been no "official"
>>Creative Labs involvement -- at least as far as I can tell.
>It was probably due to the death threats received from SB Plug And
>Play owners
Ain't that the truth. Give me jumpers any day over PNP. A lot of
companies screwed up big here. Ensoniq has done good by not going to
PNP yet.
Moebius
>>It was probably due to the death threats received from SB Plug And
>>Play owners
>
>
>Ain't that the truth. Give me jumpers any day over PNP. A lot of
>companies screwed up big here. Ensoniq has done good by not going to
>PNP yet.
I agree PNP suck ! , anyway with the Gravis PnP you can overide your
settings !...and do what you want to do ! ;-) just by reprogramming
the EEprom....cool hu !? ;-)
Moe!
Riccardo Losselli
On Mon, 03 Jun 1996 05:00:48 GMT, no...@atom.com wrote:
>Often people in these newsgroups are comparing apples and oranges.
>Roland and Yamaha cards are not even comparable to SB cards since none
>of them offer SB compatibility.
I can live without SB compatibility when I can have good midi with my
SCC-1 and perfect SFX with my GUS P'nP.
> Just try doing that with a GUS, Tropez+, CLMI
>140, or AT PRO. You can use these cards with Roland and Yamaha stuff,
>but that would mean a separate host board, a stand alone ISA board, or
>an external synth which are all more expensive and more difficult to
>setup under many circumstances.
I think you doon't know what you're talking about. You can buy a
non-DB yamaha board for 30/40$ more than the DB.
You will have a much better sounding setup. And about difficulty???
It's exactly the same as with a DB (at least with the GUS, I never
owned the other cards, so I can't tell).
>the SB16/AWE cards are noisy, and these things are nice to have, but
>for most people, these aren't worth having if it means costing more
>and possibly having more compatibility or configuration problems.
ahahha.. Config and setup problem??? Do we want to talk about a stupid
tsr to use the AWE in GM/GS mode in games (and forget the protected
mode ones) versus a no_drivers_just_select_mpu401 setup.
> DOS
>digital audio playback in games could be considered superior on the
>SB16/AWE to any other card
Obviously you havent' heard a GUS p'np.
>Often, people slamming SB cards are comparing SB16s/AWEs to much more
>expensive cards such as the Tahiti, CardD, and other multi ISA card
>arrangements.
My idea is: Buy something worth for your money, or don't buy anything.
I had to wait 3 years before I had enough money to buy an SCC-1. I
would it again without thinking twice.
> If you insist on slamming SB cards, why not compare
>them to something they are comparable to like another SB compatible
>card?
Ok. here you have it:
Roland emulation with Pmode games under DOS:
GUS P'nP: yes
AWE: NO
Hardware full duplex:
GUS P'nP : Yes
AWE: NO
Patch Caching:
Gus P'nP: Yes
AWE: NO
Effects (Reverb/Chorus/Flange/Etc)
Gus P'nP : Yes
AWE: YEs
Low pass filters:
Gus P'nP: NO
AWE: Yes
Possibility to attach a digital dac to the board:
Gus P'nP: NO
AWE 32: Yes
Mods native support (hardware interpolation, effects, hardware mixing)
GUS P'nP: 100%
AWE: 10% (maybe?)
Intros/Demos support:
GUS P'nP: 100%
AWE (1% (possibly 5% counting SB emulation))
Gimme a single reason I should buy an AWE. Sorry but I can't find any.
>
>>Many people think, by your
>>advertisements, that AWE is the top, and as soon they hear a Roland
>>they realize they've been fooled.
>
>Creative's advertisements make people think that the AWE is top? I
>don't think so.
Ok. Free translation from a CL add on the Italian edition of PC
Magazine:
Sound Blaster 32 P'nP
For who wants to discover state of the art sound!
The new SB 32 P'nP from Creative labs is the most easy to install;
Just insert it in your PC and the job's done. Hard to imagine
something simpler.But that's not all.
The quality and clearness of sound reaches unimaginable levels, if not
in an auditorium.So, what are you waiting to start composing,arrange,
create music? Your video games will have a sound so realistic that
will let you forget it's not the real thing!
Well.. if this isn't making people think the AWE is the top, i really
don't know what's...
>Ricky, it doesn't make any sense to me that you have to slam SB cards,
>while liking the GUS cards. A SB card with a good daughter board
>sounds way better to me than a GUS, and I don't have to put up with a
>card that is not as compatible and harder to use. It is nice to have
>true 16 bit full duplex and hardware MOD playback on a GUS, but that
>is all I can say for it.
Leaving out midi (you will use an DB, I use an external synth a
Roland card),add to full duplex and mods support :
Great SFX, native support, no unrecoverable problems.
Every (few) time a game didn't work with my GUS P'nP there was a fix
for it.
Every time I wanted to see an intro/demo there was sound for me.
Every time I wanted to hear a midi there was a Sound Canvas for me.
Every time I wanted to spend less than buying an AWE there was a GUS.
Every time I wanted an innovative design and full new synth chip there
was a GUS.
Sorry, i really don't see anything interesting on an AWE, for me.
You want a 110% hassle free setup? Buy an SB16 and a Roland/Yamaha
card.
Komsomol
>>Ain't that the truth. Give me jumpers any day over PNP. A lot of
>>companies screwed up big here. Ensoniq has done good by not going to
>>PNP yet.
Not that good. Ensoniq has been distributing OEM PnP cards. My last system
(11/95) came with one of these cards. Great sound, but terrible drivers and
compatibility per my experience. I see very few complaints about compatibility
problems with the non-PnP cards, but have seen a number of complaints about the
PnP OEM cards. It's on the shelf now, replaced by another manufacturer's PnP
card which hasn't caused me a bit of truoble since I installed it.
K
Matt Kellner
Great. Thanks for your response.
-Matt Kellner
Cal Poly State University
=========================
Technical FAQ coming soon! E-mail me your questions about computer
hardware and software issues, and I'll do my best to answer them. If I
can, or if I can provide information on how else to obtain an answer,
I'll e-mail you a response and include them in my FAQ!
Jeff Glatt
>>It was probably due to the death threats received from SB Plug And
>>Play owners
>Ain't that the truth. Give me jumpers any day over PNP. A lot of
>companies screwed up big here. Ensoniq has done good by not going to
>PNP yet.
Well, I was joking. I don't think that the problem is PnP per se, but
rather mixing PnP with non-PnP cards. After all, I just put a Vibra16
PnP in a new computer that had all PnP devices and everything came up
perfectly with nary a jumper nor DIP switch to set.
If CL have made any mistake, it may have been to discontinue the
non-PnP cards completely. (But then, folks should make every effort to
move to PnP. It's worth it)
Moebius
>Well, I was joking. I don't think that the problem is PnP per se, but
>rather mixing PnP with non-PnP cards. After all, I just put a Vibra16
>PnP in a new computer that had all PnP devices and everything came up
>perfectly with nary a jumper nor DIP switch to set.
>
>If CL have made any mistake, it may have been to discontinue the
>non-PnP cards completely. (But then, folks should make every effort to
>move to PnP. It's worth it)
Arrrgh no PnP please...I suppose that to install 2 PnP sound devices
must be really tricky !...In the next version of Nt they ll say there
is no PnP stuff !...thx god !1...
Look at the Amiga...there is a kind of PnP since a while...I could
tell you a lot problem configurations stories about it ! ;-)
Anyway a passive PnP should be better than a active one...
I guess the user must always have the end word...
Moebius
Mike Carrothers
>
>1) Why have you not produced a soundcard with the same features as the
Ensoniq?
> (Or other cards with similar features.) Namely a good wavetable and
clean 16-bit
> digital. This always puzzled me.
>
Unfortunately, we are stuck with the ROM samples on the AWE. If they
were changed, games with naitave AWE support would no longer work
correctly. If the samples changed, the size would change, and when a
game went to address XXXX to get a sample of say a guitar, it might
pick up a flute. This is why the SoundFont 2 tech was created.
>2) Do you have any cards that meet my above criteria. An AWE32 is not
it I'm, affraid.
> I am talking about something that does not require a TSR for G-MIDI
in older games.
> And good wavetable sounds.
>
All of the AWE's require a TSR for GM. So, I guess the answer at this
time is, no. Sorry.
>With WIN95 I would expect that these issues are not so important. But
I had
>always wondered why creative never attempted to meet this market
demand.
>
I'm a field apps engineer, I can't tell you why. (I don't know)
>Thanks,
>Greg Cisko
>
>
SeeYA
Mike Carrothers
>No it isn't your problem, it is everyone else's problem who reads
>these newsgroups. It would be great to have someone from CL post
>regularly to these newsgroups. I would like to ask "how do the older
>and newer chipsets differ?" and "what are CL's plans for the AWE?". I
>guess this isn't possible since some people insist on useless name
>calling.
>
>
The older chipsets were a little noisy, but the latest Vibra chipset
are much improved. Granted, they don't give a 90db SNR, but maybe
someday....
I really can't say much about future products (I like my job ;) ), but
I think people might be impressed someday....
Mike Carrothers
Creative Labs
Moebius
On 4 Jun 1996 22:04:00 GMT, mich...@ix.netcom.com(Mike Carrothers )
wrote:
>
>The older chipsets were a little noisy, but the latest Vibra chipset
>are much improved. Granted, they don't give a 90db SNR, but maybe
>someday....
>
>I really can't say much about future products (I like my job ;) ), but
>I think people might be impressed someday....
whoaaa I want to hear it ;-)...but I think it is not for today a 0%
cpu time load and a cheap price...
Moebius
Moebius
>"the the music we have obtained from the AWE S/P-DIF interface is nearly
>pro-quality"... and so on.
I hope for them.. ;-)
>Strangely, Creative Labs has never to my knowledge ever come out with a
>DAP (Digital to Analog Amp) that could be used with the S/P-DIF (we use
>a Sony DAP that costs over $2000, and which we "borrowed" from a
>neighboring audio firm).
I own both an awe32 and a gravis PnP...before I had a low quality hifi
system...My gravis sounded right...but the awe errrrr ;-)
Since I bought my High end hifi system...my awe sounds right....and my
gravis fliggggggggggghts ! ;-).I don';t think so I spend $2000 for my
awe ;-) (hopefully this one I got it for free ! ;-))
Moebius
Greg Cisko
In article <4p20p2$p...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mich...@ix.netcom.com(Mike Carrothers ) writes:
>>
>>1) Why have you not produced a soundcard with the same features as the
>Ensoniq?
>> (Or other cards with similar features.) Namely a good wavetable and
>clean 16-bit
>> digital. This always puzzled me.
>>
>Unfortunately, we are stuck with the ROM samples on the AWE. If they
>were changed, games with naitave AWE support would no longer work
>correctly. If the samples changed, the size would change, and when a
Sure. But I guess I am wondering why you (or creative) thinks this is the
best plan. In fact your GM implimentation (TSRs) and overly high price for
such (ie substandard wavetable sounds) made the AWE a non player for at
least one serious gamer (me).
>game went to address XXXX to get a sample of say a guitar, it might
>pick up a flute. This is why the SoundFont 2 tech was created.
>
>>2) Do you have any cards that meet my above criteria. An AWE32 is not
>it I'm, affraid.
>> I am talking about something that does not require a TSR for G-MIDI
>in older games.
>> And good wavetable sounds.
>>
>All of the AWE's require a TSR for GM. So, I guess the answer at this
>time is, no. Sorry.
Being an engineer, you feel this is the best choice for this type of GM
implimentation? Do you (or other engineers at creative) know how *BAD*
it is to have TSRs loaded in general? Especially for games where cleaner
is better. I guess I a hoping for insight as to why creative would do such
a seemingly negative thing. And... not even be aware that it may not be
the best answer. I truely get the impression that creative is OK with
TSRs being used for GM. Perhaps you could look at the GUS history a little
better.
>>With WIN95 I would expect that these issues are not so important. But
>I had
>>always wondered why creative never attempted to meet this market
>demand.
>>
>I'm a field apps engineer, I can't tell you why. (I don't know)
That is fine. Make no mistake though. Everyone may strive for your SB
and SB Pro emulations. But no one wants your GM.
>SeeYA
>
>Mike Carrothers
>Creative Labs FAE
>
>
Thanks much,
Greg Cisko
David Gasior
In article <4ouaa4$j...@murphy2.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com says...
>As well you shouldn't. It's the Tro-piss.
>
>I should note that I'm kidding. I sense that David doesn't like me
>already (even though I've helped sell a few folks on TB cards -- but
>not the cheap stuff like the Tropez though -- I don't see much point
>to that)
Actually, I didn't take offense until you called the Tropez "cheap stuff".
=)
David Gasior
In article <4p2bsg$c...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mich...@ix.netcom.co
says...
>I really can't say much about future products (I like my job ;) ), but
>I think people might be impressed someday....
I would just be impressed if I could keep my SB16 working in Windows95. Every
time I reboot or restart, it suddenly doesn't work. I have to press the reset
button or actually cold boot for it to work.
No, let me rephrase that, I only use it for DOS games (when was the last time I
had time to play a DOS game!?) so I would just be happy if I could get someone
at CL to answer my email regarding the problem. =)