Wrong Hard Drive Size

[Norton]

I have a 640MB hard drive, fdisk likes it, BIOS likes, but when I format it
claims to only be a 504MB hard drive. I have tried a boot disk from
Windows98(FAT32) and DOS(FAT16) with the same results. I also tried a 1.6GB
hard drive, same thing, but this time format thought it was 1.2GB or
something.

I am pretty sure it's not a 1MB == 1024K or 1000K thing

Any ideas?

Bill Norton

[Zvi Netiv]

"Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:

> I have a 640MB hard drive, fdisk likes it, BIOS likes, but when I format it
> claims to only be a 504MB hard drive. I have tried a boot disk from
> Windows98(FAT32) and DOS(FAT16) with the same results. I also tried a 1.6GB
> hard drive, same thing, but this time format thought it was 1.2GB or
> something.

504 mb is the capacity limit recognized by old BIOSes, with no LBA support.
Since '94, practically all BIOSes have LBA. Assuming that you have a relatively
new mobo, then you may have set the drive to NORMAL in the CMOS. To access the
true full capacity, delete the current partition with FDISK, change the CMOS
setting for the drive to 'auto' and LBA, then FDISK and FORMAT.

> I am pretty sure it's not a 1MB == 1024K or 1000K thing

> Any ideas?

Regards, Zvi
--
NetZ Computing Ltd. ISRAEL http://invircible.com sup...@resq.co.il
InVircible Anti-Virus Software, ResQdisk and Data Recovery Utilities
E-mail sent in reply to this post will not be considered private and
may be answered in the newsgroup.

[Folkert Rienstra]

"Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message news:1F135AED457C7EF6.4EDC3903...@lp.airnews.net...

: "Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:
:
: > I have a 640MB hard drive, fdisk likes it, BIOS likes, but when I format it
: > claims to only be a 504MB hard drive. I have tried a boot disk from
: > Windows98(FAT32) and DOS(FAT16) with the same results. I also tried a 1.6GB
: > hard drive, same thing, but this time format thought it was 1.2GB or
: > something.
:
: 504 mb is the capacity limit recognized by old BIOSes, with no LBA support.

I don't think so, although there is quite some confusion over this matter
and changing one word makes it right again (support -> assist).

As I understand it LBA support emerged at the same time as the 504MB
CHS limit emerged. Drives over 504 MB still supported CHS but used a different translation called ECHS or LARGE or LBA Assist.
It seems the latter was also called LBA for short.
As I understand it this still works with INT13 using CHS.
Real LBA comes with INT13ext and became necessary IIRC over 8 GB
but can ofcourse be used at lower capacities too (504 and up).

: Since '94, practically all BIOSes have LBA. Assuming that you have a relatively

[Zvi Netiv]

"Folkert Rienstra" <s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:
> "Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message

> : "Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:

> : > I have a 640MB hard drive, fdisk likes it, BIOS likes, but when I format it
> : > claims to only be a 504MB hard drive. I have tried a boot disk from
> : > Windows98(FAT32) and DOS(FAT16) with the same results. I also tried a 1.6GB
> : > hard drive, same thing, but this time format thought it was 1.2GB or
> : > something.

> : 504 mb is the capacity limit recognized by old BIOSes, with no LBA support.

> I don't think so, although there is quite some confusion over this matter
> and changing one word makes it right again (support -> assist).

I'm afraid that your corrections add more confusion than "assist". ;)

> As I understand it LBA support emerged at the same time as the 504MB
> CHS limit emerged. Drives over 504 MB still supported CHS but used a
> different translation called ECHS or LARGE or LBA Assist.
> It seems the latter was also called LBA for short.

LBA stands for 'logical block access', there is no "assist" involved there. The
504 meg limit didn't "emerge" at any specific date, it was the result of early
IDE drives design, prior to the introduction of EIDE. The use of LBA and its
becoming standard in the BIOS predates the appearance of large capacity drives
(larger than 504 meg) by a few years.

> As I understand it this still works with INT13 using CHS.
> Real LBA comes with INT13ext and became necessary IIRC over 8 GB

There is no such thing as "real" and unreal LBA, and logical block access is the
natural addressing mode of IDE drives ever since, although it wasn't called LBA
till circa '93. Extended Int 13 was introduced years after the introduction of
LBA, concurrently with the larger than 8 gig drives. LBA didn't change nor
become more "real" with extended Int 13. LBA didn't become necessary from 8 gig
and up but from 504 meg and up. Otherwise why would it be necessary to use the
EZ-Drive or Ontrack boot overlay on larger than 504 meg drives with old BIOSes?
If you were right then old 386's should be able to handle up to 8 gig drives,
with their CHS based BIOS. Yet every bozo knows that this is crap.

> but can of course be used at lower capacities too (504 and up).

Wrong again. LBA cannot be used from 504 and up, it MUST, or you won't be able
to access the full capacity of the drive.

[Folkert Rienstra]

"Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message news:721C3AFE3AB771B1.25586CCC...@lp.airnews.net...

: "Folkert Rienstra" <s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:
: > "Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message
: > : "Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:

I will be posting a 50KB Rich Text response shortly.
If you don't want it downloaded please unwatch this thread.

[Polychromic]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:26:00 +0100, "Folkert Rienstra"
<s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:

>
>"Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message news:721C3AFE3AB771B1.25586CCC...@lp.airnews.net...
>: "Folkert Rienstra" <s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:
>: > "Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message
>: > : "Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:
>
>I will be posting a 50KB Rich Text response shortly.
>If you don't want it downloaded please unwatch this thread.

Please don't post binary attachments to non-binary newsgroups like
this.

--
The Polychromic Dragon (Michael Cecil) of the -=={UDIC}==-
Dragons For Adventure guild http://users.ticnet.com/mcecil/dfa
Gaming > http://users.ticnet.com/mcecil
Tech > http://users.ticnet.com/mcecil/howto mac...@home.com
Say NO to CPRM > http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html

[Ron Reaugh]

Folkert Rienstra wrote in message <#Dxy#AUnAH...@net037s.hetnet.nl>...

No, do not post it or attach it. Just provide a link to it!

[Folkert Rienstra]

I apologize beforehand for the long post.

Blame a certain person for insinuating that I may have problems in learning or am a

bozo not to recognize why 386 machines can't deal with LBA (as if it mattered).

 

Especially when it comes from a so-called expert who is clearly ill informed. Jeez!!

 

So I go set out who the real BOZO is. AND I DO IT THOUROUGHLY.

 

My comments are recognized by my initials (FR)

Red is traditional CHS, blue is CHS translation and green is Logical Block Addressing.

 

                                                    Best viewed this wide:
--!---------!---------!---------!---------!---------!---------!---------!---------!---------!--

 

---

 

Information Technology -

AT Attachment with Packet Interface - 6

(ATA/ATAPI-6)

 

---

 

 6.2 Register delivered data transfer command sector addressing

 

For register delivered data transfer commands all addressing of data sectors recorded on the device's media

is by a logical sector address. There is no implied relationship between logical sector addresses and the

actual physical location of the data sector on the media.

 

Devices shall support translations as described below:

-All devices shall support LBA translation.

-

If the device’s capacity is greater than or equal to one sector and less than or equal to

 16,514,064 (8GB, FR) sectors, then the device shall support CHS translation.

-

If the device’s capacity is greater than 16,514,064 (8GB,FR) sectors, the device may support

 CHS translation.

-

If a device supports CHS translation, then, following a power-on or hardware reset, the CHS

 translation enabled by the device shall be the default translation.

-

If a device supports CHS translation, a device may allow a host to use the INITIALIZE DEVICE

PARAMETERS command to select other CHS translations (called current translation, FR).

-If a device supports CHS translation, IDENTIFY DEVICE words 1,3, and 6 shall describe the

 default translation, and words 53-58 shall describe the current translation.

A CHS address is made up of three fields: the sector number, the head number, and the cylinder number.

Sectors are numbered from 1 to the maximum value allowed by the current CHS translation but shall not

exceed 255. Heads are numbered from 0 to the maximum value allowed by the current CHS translation but

shall not exceed 15. Cylinders are numbered from 0 to the maximum value allowed by the current CHS

translation but shall not exceed 65,535.

 

When the host selects a CHS translation using the INITIALIZE DEVICE PARAMETERS command, the host

requests the number of sectors per logical track and the number of heads per logical cylinder. The device

then computes the number of logical cylinders available in the requested translation.

 

A device shall not change the addressing method specified by the command and shall return status

information utilizing the addressing method specified for the command.

 

 

Page 21-22

 

---

---

T13/1410D revision 0a

 

Annex C

(informative)

Identify device data for devices with more than 1024 logical cylinders

C.1 Definitions and background information

The original IBM PC BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) imposed several restrictions on the support of

devices, and these have been incorporated into many higher level software products. One such restriction

limits the capacity of a device. BIOS software cannot support a device with more than 1,024 cylinders, 16

heads, and 63 sectors per track without translating an input logical geometry to a different output logical

geometry. The maximum addressable capacity of a device that does not require BIOS translation is

1,032,192 sectors.(That is 528 MB, FR.)

These rules allow BIOSes using bit shifting translation to access 15,481,935 (16,38

3/15/63) 

(That is 8GB, FR) sectors, and BIOSes using LBA assisted translation to access 16,450,560

(1024/255/63) (Again 8GB, FR.) sectors.

 

Extended BIOS functionality is defined in BIOS Enhanced Disk Drive (EDD), NCITS TR-21, which describes

new services provided by BIOS firmware to support ATA hard disks up to 16 mega-terra-sectors.

C.2 Cylinder, head, and sector addressing

BIOSs and other software that operate a device in CHS translation employ a combination of IDENTIFY

DEVICE data words 1, 3, 6, words 53-58, and words 60-61 to ascertain the appropriate translation to use and

determine the capacity of a device.

Maximum compatibility is facilitated if the following guidelines are used. These guidelines limit the values

placed into words 1, 3, 6, 53-58, and 60-61.

Accessing beyond 15,481,935 sectors (8GB, FR)  should be performed using LBA.

C.2.1 Word 1

For devices with a capacity less than or equal to 1,032,192 sectors, if IDENTIFY DEVICE data word

1 (Default Cylinders) does not specify a value greater than 1,024, then no guideline is necessary.

If a device is greater than 1,032,192 sectors, but less than or equal to 16,514,064 sectors,

(528MB-8GB, FR) the maximum value that can be placed into this word is determined

by the value in word 3 as shown in table C.1. (we're still talking CHS here, FR)

If a device is greater than 15,481,935 sectors and supports CHS, this word should contain

16,383 (3FFFh).

The INITIALIZE DEVICE PARAMETERS command does not change this value.

The value in this word is changed by the SET MAX ADDRESS command.

 

Page 341

---

T13/1410D revision 0a

 

Table C.1

-Word 1 value for devices between 1,032,192 and 16,514,064 sectors

Value in word 3     Maximum value in word 1

1 1h     65,535 FFFFh

2 2h     65,535 FFFFh

3 3h     65,535 FFFFh

4 4h     65,535 FFFFh

5 5h     32,767 7FFFh

6 6h     32,767 7FFFh

7 7h     32,767 7FFFh

8 8h     32,767 7FFFh

9 9h     16,383 3FFFh

10 Ah     16,383 3FFFh

11 Bh     16,383 3FFFh

12 Ch     16,383 3FFFh

13 Dh     16,383 3FFFh

14 Eh     16,383 3FFFh

15 Fh     16,383 3FFFh

16 10h     16,383 3FFFh

 

C.2.2 Word 3

IDENTIFY DEVICE data word 3 (Default Heads) does not specify a value greater than 16. If the device has

less than or equal to 8,257,536 sectors, then set word 3 to 16 heads. If the device has more than 16,514,064

sectors, then set word 3 to 15 heads. If this value is set to 16 when the device has more than 16,514,064

sectors, some systems will not boot some operating systems.

 

The INITIALIZE DEVICE PARAMETERS command does not change this value.

C.2.3 Word 6

If the device is above 1,032,192 sectors then the value should be 63. This value does not exceed 63 (3Fh).

 

The INITIALIZE DEVICE PARAMETERS command does not change this value.

C.2.4 Use of words 53 through 58

Devices with a capacity over 1,032,192 sectors implement words 53-58. Devices with a capacity less

than or equal to 1,032,192 sectors (528 MB, FR) may also implement these words.

These words define the address range for all sectors accessible in CHS mode under 16,514,064.

(0<=8GB, F.R.) The product of word 54, word 55, and word 56 must not exceed 16,514,064.

(note that we're talking still CHS here, F.R.).

C.2.5 Words 60-61

IDENTIFY DEVICE data words 60-61 contain a 32-bit value that is equal to the total number of sectors

that can be accessed using LBA. If the device is less than or equal to 15,481,935 sectors, this value

should be the product of words 1, 3, and 6. Setting the total number of LBA sectors in this manner reduces

the probability of conflicting device capacities being calculated by different operating systems.

 

Page 342

 

---

T13/1410D revision 0a

C.3 Orphan sectors

The sectors, if any, between the last sector addressable in CHS mode and the last sector addressable in

LBA mode are known as "orphan" sectors. A device may or may not allow access to these sectors in CHS

addressing mode.

The values in words 1, 3, and 6 are selected such that the number of orphan sectors is minimized. Normally,

the number of orphan sectors should not exceed ( [word55] x [word56] - 1 ). However, the host system may

create conditions where there are a larger number of orphans sectors by issuing the INITIALIZE DEVICE

PARAMETERS command with values other than the values in words 3 and 6. If the recommendation in C.2.5

is followed, there will be no orphan sectors and problems associated with new operating systems calculating

a different device size from older operating systems will be minimized.

 

 

Page 343

---

---

Working T13

Draft D1386

Revision 1

August 23, 1999

Information Technology -BIOS

Enhanced Disk Drive Services (EDD)

---

4 Overview

In the past, DOS has accessed its mass storage devices using a BIOS provided INT 13 interface.

This interface was designed in the early 1980’s and upgraded in the late 1980’s. The maximum

theoretical capacity of this API is 8.4 giga-bytes. This INT 13 interface, now known as the

legacy INT 13 interface,

uses function numbers 1-15h and is Cylinder-Head-Sector (CHS) oriented.

An extended INT 13 interface has been created, the purpose of these Int 13h extensions is to:

 

·

Replace CHS addressing with Logical Block Addressing (LBA).

·

Remove the current requirement of using interrupt 41h/46h to point at the Fixed Disk Parameter Table

information.

·

Give the BIOS better control over how this data is used.

·

Make location and configuration information available to operating systems that do not use the BIOS to

access mass storage devices.

·

Use data structures that apply to both IA-32 and IA-64 architecture systems.

·

Use data structures that can address media capacities for the next 20 years.

Page 14

---

---

From  Phoenix/Microfirmware (partial):

---

Some Notes on LBA

---

Filename: LBA.TXT
WWW URL:  http://www.firmware.com/support/bios/lba.htm

If used by operating systems and applications on the software side of the BIOS as well

as by the drive on the hardware side of the BIOS, LBA can be a more efficient way to

address hard drives than the CHS (Cylinder, Head, Sector) method of addressing.

It may be awhile before this becomes widely used by hardware, BIOSes, and software.

In the meantime it isn't necessarily a performance increase to use LBA and may even be

less efficient. There is widespread confusion throughout the industry on the subject of LBA

and BIOS support for large drives - may people mistakenly think these to be the same thing.

Most drives that support LBA do not require that LBA is used and LBA addressing is not

normally required in order for a BIOS to support large drives.

What is required to support large drives is a translating BIOS.

 

There are two widely used translation algorithms used in PC BIOSes to support large drives.

One kind is called Extended CHS (ECHS, also called CHS to CHS and sometimes called

"bit-shift").     In some BIOSes, this translation type is refered to as "Large".

This type of translation works by halving the cylinder count and doubling the head count

until the cylinder count is 1024 or less. The other main type of translation used is called

LBA Assist or Assisted LBA, often just called LBA.

See our document OVER4GB.TXT for more details on these translation methods.

 

http://www.firmware.com/support/bios/over4gb.htm

 

LBA addressing has always been used on SCSI drives. IDE drives began to use LBA

addressing as an option at about the same time that large (over 504MB) IDE drives began

to appear. Most large IDE (or EIDE) drives support LBA mode. Normally, LBA mode is

optional on drives that support it.

To use LBA addressing it must be implemented in the BIOS as well as by the hard drive.

In order for LBA mode to be used on the software side of the BIOS, the operating system

or application must support the new "INT13 extensions" and the BIOS must also support

INT13 extensions.

---

Now to conclude the above (FR):

 

Translation modes are called Extended CHS (ECHS, also called CHS to CHS and

sometimes called "bit-shift") (or Large) or LBA(assist). They all use CHS for

above 528 MB.

 

Drives may use LBA but the bios may still use CHS using CHS translation on the

OS/application side. (This is also the default for SCSI below 8 GB).

 

"Real" LBA uses LBA mode throughout: drive and bios and OS/application.

 

up to 528 MB, 4 and 8GB, CHS values are stored in Identify Device words 1, 3

and 6 according to specific rules which differ for the different capacities:

"Normal" for up to 528MB, "ECHS" for 4 and 8 GB and "LBA assist" for up to 8GB.

Capacity is calculated by the host from CHS or can be gained from words 60-61 as

calculated by the device from CHS (if available).

 

An alternative translation can be ordered  by specifying H and S so the device

can calculate C, the results are stored in words 54 - 56. It is volatile.

A different set of rules apply here, just limiting H to 15 and C to 65,535.

Capacity shall not exceed 8 GB, is calculated by the device in sectors and is stored

in words 57 - 58.

 

up to 138 GB LBA capacity in sectors is found in words 60 and 61.

 

All this assuming no set max address was issued to shortstroke the drive.

 

Now, this is all nicely documented for the drive-bios interface.

One can select a preferred translation mode in the bios setup.

Unfortunately current OSs use drivers that directly interface with the hardware.

That poses an interresting question: What mode(s) will a driver use?

 

Other comments interspersed with the original post:

 

--

 

"Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message news:721C3AFE3AB771B1.25586CCC...@lp.airnews.net...

: "Folkert Rienstra" <s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:
: > "Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message
: > : "Norton" <nor...@chartertn.net> wrote:
:
: > : > I have a 640MB hard drive, fdisk likes it, BIOS likes, but when I format it
: > : > claims to only be a 504MB hard drive. I have tried a boot disk from
: > : > Windows98(FAT32) and DOS(FAT16) with the same results. I also tried a 1.6GB
: > : > hard drive, same thing, but this time format thought it was 1.2GB or something.
:
: > : 504 mb is the capacity limit recognized by old BIOSes, with no LBA support.
: 
: > I don't think so, although there is quite some confusion over this matter
: > and changing one word makes it right again (support -> assist).
:
: I'm afraid that your corrections add more confusion than "assist". ;)

 

Yup. The material is highly complex so that is a BIG possibility.

:
: > As I understand it LBA support emerged at the same time as the 504MB

: > CHS limit emerged. Drives over 504 MB still supported CHS but used a
: > different translation called ECHS or LARGE or LBA Assist.
: > It seems the latter was also called LBA for short.
:
: LBA stands for 'logical block access', there is no "assist" involved there. 

 

Read the post Zvi.

I mentioned the term 'LBA for short' in combination with a translation bios,

not as an explanation of Logical Block Access.

Perhaps I would have been clearer if I had said 'wrongfully called LBA for short'

 

Also read Hale Landis (strong) opinion on calling a certain translation bios mode

"LBA mode".

 

: The 504 meg limit didn't "emerge" at any specific date, it was the result of early

: IDE drives design, prior to the introduction of EIDE.  The use of LBA and its
: becoming standard in the BIOS predates the appearance of large capacity drives
: (larger than 504 meg) by a few years.

 

Yes, SCSI and LBA were indeed available before that date. Duh!

:
: > As I understand it this still works with INT13 using CHS.

: > Real LBA comes with INT13ext and became necessary IIRC over 8 GB
:
: There is no such thing as "real" and unreal LBA,

 

Yes Zvi, there is.

The correct term for 'unreal LBA' is Assisted LBA or LBA Assist and is used for a

certain type of translating bios.

 

LBA is used for a non-translating bios.

IIRC it uses Logical Block Addressing on both sides of the bios.

 

: and logical block access is the  natural addressing mode of IDE drives ever since,

 

Nope, they used extended CHS by using a translating bios.

 

: although it wasn't called LBA till circa '93. 

 

Which probably was a ECHS variation called "LBA assist".

 

: Extended Int 13 was introduced years after the introduction of LBA, concurrently

: with the larger than 8 gig drives. 

 

Thank you for acknowledging what I said originally.

 

: LBA didn't change nor  become more "real" with extended Int 13.  LBA didn't

: become necessary from 8 gig  and up but from 504 meg and up. 

 

Nope. CHS translation still uses CHS. Drives that use it also CAN use LBA.

It is in the ATA specification. It would do you good to read them sometimes.

 

: Otherwise why would it be necessary to use the

: EZ-Drive or Ontrack boot overlay on larger than 504 meg drives with old BIOSes?

 

Because older bioses using the 'normal' CHS interface couldn't handle CHS translation

perhaps? What do you think? Duh.

: If you were right then old 386's should be able to handle up to 8 gig drives,

 

Indeed it would if that 386 bios would handle 'CHS Translation'.

I don't know if such a bios was ever available to a 386 PC. It's irrelevant.

There have been a myriad of bios problems  over time that demanded the use of a

boot overlay, the 528MB limit is just one of them and has nothing to do with LBA.

Only with over 8GB does LBA addressing enter the issue as there is no alternative.

: with their CHS based BIOS.  Yet every bozo knows that this is crap. 

 

Nope.

It appears that you are the bozo by not being aware of the existence of translation

bioses and you are therefor spouting the crap.

:
: > but can of course be used at lower capacities too (504 and up).
:
: Wrong again.  LBA cannot be used from 504 and up, it MUST, or you won't be able
: to access the full capacity of the drive.

 

Nope, you are the one being 'wrong again' and I have shown it in the top of this post

several times where I backed up my claims.

 

Now, how about a nice fat apology to the Bozo.

 

:
: Regards, Zvi

[Ron Reaugh]

Please post in plain text to this NG. Provide a link to other stuff.
Folkert Rienstra wrote in message ...

[Eric Gisin]

What bullshit. I hope you really don't write disk utility software.

Translated CHS came out in the early 90s and broke the 504MB barrier.
Physical CHS could access 126GB long before LBA came out, and UNIX supported
it. Translated CHS mapped 24-bit Int13 addresses to 28-bit physical
addresses. Hale Landis explains the gory details.

"Zvi Netiv" <z...@invircible.com> wrote in message

news:721C3AFE3AB771B1.25586CCC...@lp.airnews.net...
> "Folkert Rienstra" <s...@replyaddress.nl> wrote:
>

[Eric Gisin]

Rich text means text/html content. It's not binary.

Considering the resident troll posts 100KB/day, I don't think one large
article makes a diff.

"Polychromic" <mac...@home.com> wrote in message
news:bnsc9tcm3lh0htrnt...@4ax.com...

[Ron Reaugh]

Eric Gisin wrote in message ...

>Rich text means text/html content. It's not binary.

Right and don't post it to a text only NG.

[Polychromic]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:28:50 -0800, "Eric Gisin" <er...@techie.com>
wrote:

>Rich text means text/html content. It's not binary.
>
>Considering the resident troll posts 100KB/day, I don't think one large
>article makes a diff.

Don't post HTML to newsgroups either. One article? No, but if every
lout who came along decided it was alright for him/her to break the
rule then newsgroups would be unusable.

[Ron Reaugh]

Polychromic wrote in message <984g9t01pdr8jl23c...@4ax.com>...

>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:28:50 -0800, "Eric Gisin" <er...@techie.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Rich text means text/html content. It's not binary.
>>
>>Considering the resident troll posts 100KB/day, I don't think one large
>>article makes a diff.
>
>Don't post HTML to newsgroups either. One article? No, but if every
>lout who came along decided it was alright for him/her to break the
>rule then newsgroups would be unusable.

Exactly. If you want to do anything fancy then just provide a link to it in
plain text.