I think I've solved my Spin Retry Count problem
Yousuf Khan
lot of Spin Retry Counts in SMART, but other than that it's rock solid:
it has outlasted a whole bunch of newer drives that were previously
giving no error messages whatsoever in SMART. Well, it looks like I've
now also solved its Spin Retries too.
Here's the older thread for reference:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage | Google Groups
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage/tree/browse_frm/thread/266061b113512046/4e67e9d03b201ae3?_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F266061b113512046%2F4e67e9d03b201ae3%3Fq%3Dbbbl67%2BOR%2Byjkhan%2Bspin%2Bretry%26&q=bbbl67+OR+yjkhan+spin+retry
Well anyway, what I did recently was that I converted two of those old
IDE drives into SATA drives using an IDE-to-SATA converter board that
fits right onto the back of the drives themselves. I started noticing
that the Spin Retries were gone about two weeks ago, but that was only a
week after I installed them, so I didn't want to say anything until I
saw a bit more time pass. Well, it's now the three week mark, and I
haven't seen any additional spin retries! I've also rebooted the system
quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is
also now starting to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had
gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
I had previously suspected the IDE cables to be the culprits, so I did
change them, but that didn't help any at that time. So at that point I
began suspecting the drive itself was getting old (which it is). Looks
like now that it's going through SATA cables instead of IDE ones, that
the cables were the culprit, even with the newer IDE cables. I'm not
sure if this is endemic to IDE cables in general, or if it was just two
bad IDE cables in a row.
Yousuf Khan
Daniel Prince
>I had previously suspected the IDE cables to be the culprits, so I did
>change them, but that didn't help any at that time. So at that point I
>began suspecting the drive itself was getting old (which it is). Looks
>like now that it's going through SATA cables instead of IDE ones, that
>the cables were the culprit, even with the newer IDE cables. I'm not
>sure if this is endemic to IDE cables in general, or if it was just two
>bad IDE cables in a row.
How long were your IDE cables? Were they flat or round?
--
I don't understand why they make gourmet cat foods. I have
known many cats in my life and none of them were gourmets.
They were all gourmands!
Rod Speed
> I have stated previously that I have an older drive that seems to get a lot of Spin Retry Counts in SMART, but other
> than that it's rock solid: it has outlasted a whole bunch of newer drives that were previously giving no error
> messages whatsoever in SMART. Well, it looks like I've now also solved its Spin Retries too.
> Here's the older thread for reference:
> comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage | Google Groups
> Well anyway, what I did recently was that I converted two of those old IDE drives into SATA drives using an
> IDE-to-SATA converter board that fits right onto the back of the drives themselves. I started noticing that the Spin
> Retries were gone about two weeks ago,
Gone from what report ? They shouldnt go from the Everest SMART
report, the raw value is a total and should just stop increasing.
> but that was only a week after I installed them, so I didn't want to say anything until I saw a bit more time pass.
> Well, it's now the three week mark, and I haven't seen any additional spin retries!
Presumably thats what you meant and the previous is just poorly worded.
> I've also rebooted the system quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is also now starting
> to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
I've never considered those numbers are very useful, what matters is the raw value.
> I had previously suspected the IDE cables to be the culprits, so I did
> change them, but that didn't help any at that time. So at that point I
> began suspecting the drive itself was getting old (which it is). Looks
> like now that it's going through SATA cables instead of IDE ones, that
> the cables were the culprit, even with the newer IDE cables. I'm not
> sure if this is endemic to IDE cables in general, or if it was just
> two bad IDE cables in a row.
Its much more likely to be a lot more complicated than that.
What else did you change when you moved from IDE to SATA ?
Did you change the motherboard or power supply ?
The old thread did say you upgraded the power supply.
Did you see the spin retry count keep increasing after that ?
The only raw value you did post wasnt that high, just 20.
Yousuf Khan
> How long were your IDE cables? Were they flat or round?
They were around 20 inches long, from the furthest ends.
Now, they were rounded cables in both cases. I had thought of using flat
cables, but in the crowded conditions in my case it was pretty difficult
to use them without moving a lot of stuff around. Plus the rounded
cables gave better cooling.
Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
> Yousuf Khan wrote
>> I've also rebooted the system quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is also now starting
>> to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
>
> I've never considered those numbers are very useful, what matters is the raw value.
Well, they seem to be based on the same criteria that we'd use to judge
quality: how many errors are there, and how often do they occur.
Recently they've been occurring much less frequently, so it's been
upgrading its rating for the drive.
> Its much more likely to be a lot more complicated than that.
>
> What else did you change when you moved from IDE to SATA ?
>
> Did you change the motherboard or power supply ?
Neither were changed. Power supply was obviously changed in the previous
round of troubleshooting, so it didn't need to be changed again.
Motherboard and processor remained what they were too; as a matter of
fact the reason this change was done was to eventually upgrade the
motherboard and processor down the road -- it's extremely difficult to
find new motherboards with more than one IDE channel anymore, so I am
preparing for the next generation. It was difficult to find a
motherboard with two IDE channels (i.e. 4 connectors) the last time too.
There were 4 SATA connections, and 4 IDE connections. Two SATAs were
previously unused, so I just moved two IDEs over to SATA. The only
things left on IDE are the optical drives.
> The old thread did say you upgraded the power supply.
> Did you see the spin retry count keep increasing after that ?
Yes, it did keep increasing after that. But the PS upgrade fixed many
other unrelated problems so I wasn't unhappy about that.
> The only raw value you did post wasnt that high, just 20.
Well, it's gone upto 32 since then -- and holding.
Yousuf Khan
Michael Cecil
I thought of using certified life vests, but the cardboard ones were much
cheaper. Plus the cardboard ones were easier to store.
--
Michael Cecil
http://home.roadrunner.com/~macecil/
http://home.roadrunner.com/~safehex/
http://home.roadrunner.com/~macecil/hackingw7/
Arno
[...]
> I had previously suspected the IDE cables to be the culprits, so I did
> change them, but that didn't help any at that time. So at that point I
> began suspecting the drive itself was getting old (which it is). Looks
> like now that it's going through SATA cables instead of IDE ones, that
> the cables were the culprit, even with the newer IDE cables. I'm not
> sure if this is endemic to IDE cables in general, or if it was just two
> bad IDE cables in a row.
> Yousuf Khan
Well, it is nice that the problem went away, but I frankly cannot
imagine any way an IDE cable would be responsible. Did you change or
at least unplug/replug the power connections? Bad power
connections can cause spin problems as especially old drives
draw a lot of power on spindle startup.
Arno
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Yousuf Khan wrote
>>> I've also rebooted the system quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is also now
>>> starting to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
>> I've never considered those numbers are very useful, what matters is the raw value.
> Well, they seem to be based on the same criteria that we'd use to
> judge quality: how many errors are there, and how often do they occur.
The raw numbers for that particular drive dont support those 40% and 52%
claims, particularly with a parameter like spin retry count thats much more
likely to be a problem external to the drive than internal to the drive.
> Recently they've been occurring much less frequently, so it's been upgrading its rating for the drive.
It shouldnt have ever given it a 40% with the raw values you posted.
>> Its much more likely to be a lot more complicated than that.
>> What else did you change when you moved from IDE to SATA ?
>> Did you change the motherboard or power supply ?
> Neither were changed. Power supply was obviously changed in the
> previous round of troubleshooting, so it didn't need to be changed
> again. Motherboard and processor remained what they were too; as a matter of fact the reason this change was done was
> to eventually upgrade the motherboard and processor down the road -- it's extremely difficult to find new motherboards
> with more than one IDE channel anymore, so I am preparing for the next generation. It was difficult to find a
> motherboard with two IDE channels (i.e. 4 connectors) the last time too.
Sure, I wondered whether you had changed the motherboard already.
> There were 4 SATA connections, and 4 IDE connections. Two SATAs were previously unused, so I just moved two IDEs over
> to SATA. The only things left on IDE are the optical drives.
>> The old thread did say you upgraded the power supply.
>> Did you see the spin retry count keep increasing after that ?
> Yes, it did keep increasing after that. But the PS upgrade fixed many other unrelated problems so I wasn't unhappy
> about that.
>> The only raw value you did post wasnt that high, just 20.
> Well, it's gone upto 32 since then -- and holding.
I still find it hard to believe its a cable problem before the change to SATA.
YKhan
> Well, it is nice that the problem went away, but I frankly cannot
> imagine any way an IDE cable would be responsible. Did you change or
> at least unplug/replug the power connections? Bad power
> connections can cause spin problems as especially old drives
> draw a lot of power on spindle startup.
>
> Arno
The power connections were all brand new when the new power supply was
previously installed. The exact same power cables are still attached,
but now the data cables are SATA.
Yousuf Khan
Mike Tomlinson
<bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> writes
>Well anyway, what I did recently was that I converted two of those old
>IDE drives into SATA drives using an IDE-to-SATA converter board that
>fits right onto the back of the drives themselves. I started noticing
>that the Spin Retries were gone about two weeks ago, but that was only a
>week after I installed them
I think the change in behaviour won't have anything to do with the
cables. A dodgy IDE cable is going to affect a lot more than the Spin
Retry count.
It's probably more to do with the fact hat you have now converted the
drive to SATA. Those plug-in converters are notoriously unreliable
(especially if you buy the ebay cheapo ones). I've used several
different ones with mixed results. How do you know the SMART data is
getting through from the drive correctly, if at all?
--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png
Franc Zabkar
keyboard and composed:
I agree. There seems to be no plausible causal relationship between a
faulty data cable and a spin retry issue. It would be a bit like
blaming a flat tyre on a flat battery.
I'd be watching and comparing other SMART attributes, eg ...
201 C9 Soft Read Error Rate (Number of off-track errors)
207 CF Spin High Current (Amount of surge current used to spin up the
drive)
208 D0 Spin Buzz (Number of buzz routines needed to spin up the drive
due to insufficient power)
209 D1 Offline Seek Performance (Drive�s seek performance during its
internal tests)
This article attempts to explain the SMART attributes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.#Known_ATA_S.M.A.R.T._attributes
Here are the OP's previous data:
C9 �<vendor-specific> � � � � � � � � � �0 � �253 �252 � � � � � 1
CF �<vendor-specific> � � � � � � � � � �0 � �224 �207 � � � � �23
D0 �<vendor-specific> � � � � � � � � � �0 � �253 �252 � � � � � 0
D1 �<vendor-specific> � � � � � � � � � �0 � �241 �241 � � � � 154
If the OP is handy with a multimeter, he may be able to measure the
actual startup current by locating the current sense resistors for the
spindle motor and measuring the voltage across them.
In Seagate drives that employ an ST Microelectonics "SMOOTH" spindle
motor and voice coil motor (VCM) combo controller chip, there will be
five parallel connected 1R00 (1.00 ohm) resistors. The four 1R00
resistors sense the VCM current.
Here is a datasheet for an L7250 controller:
http://wandrew.regruppa.ru/PCInfo/TechDoc/L7250(Smooth).pdf
I believe this may be the OP's PCB:
http://www.tux-tech.ca/images/logo/pcb.jpg
The spindle motor current sensing resistors appear to be R512, R511,
R510, ...
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
YKhan
> I agree. There seems to be no plausible causal relationship between a
> faulty data cable and a spin retry issue. It would be a bit like
> blaming a flat tyre on a flat battery.
There is one possibility that might explain it that I've been thinking
of recently. When the drive was connected via IDE, it was one of the
first drives detected by the BIOS, whereas now that it's connected via
SATA it's one of the last drives. It's perhaps possible that the
additional resting time in between gives it more time to get ready for
the BIOS when the detection procedure comes around to it.
Yousuf Khan
YKhan
> It's probably more to do with the fact hat you have now converted the
> drive to SATA. Those plug-in converters are notoriously unreliable
> (especially if you buy the ebay cheapo ones). I've used several
> different ones with mixed results. How do you know the SMART data is
> getting through from the drive correctly, if at all?
As a matter of fact, I did get them on Ebay. They are not perfect, I
found them to be pretty finicky about being pushed in tightly, but
once they started working without flaw.
How do I know that the SMART data is getting through? Well because HD
Sentinel displays them, quite simply. HDS always polls that data, it's
not saved data.
Yousuf Khan
YKhan
> His cables were round instead of falt ribbon and over the 18" length
> spec limit so it could have very well been his cables. Round cables
> are for case mod doodz and not computer savvy minded people.
There were two drives connected through that same cable. It was always
just the one drive that had any problems, the other one didn't. There
are good reasons for non-case-mod-doodz to use rounded cables too:
they are more flexible, and they allow better airflow.
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
That wouldnt produce spin retry counts in the SMART stats.
Franc Zabkar
finger to keyboard and composed:
>On Sep 18, 1:57�am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
AIUI, all drives spin up as soon as power is applied, unless you have
enabled PUIS (power up in standby), in which case the BIOS or the OS
could stagger the spinup. But I still can't see how either scenario
could affect the spin retry count.
Maybe warmer weather has made the fluid bearing a little less viscous
???
Arno
Arno
> On 18 Sep 2009 01:38:09 GMT, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>Well, it is nice that the problem went away, but I frankly cannot
>>imagine any way an IDE cable would be responsible. Did you change or
>>at least unplug/replug the power connections? Bad power
>>connections can cause spin problems as especially old drives
>>draw a lot of power on spindle startup.
>>
>>Arno
> His cables were round instead of falt ribbon and over the 18" length
> spec limit so it could have very well been his cables. Round cables
> are for case mod doodz and not computer savvy minded people.
For interface errors and data corruption, yes. But for
Spin-Retry? How would that work?
Incidentially I have made good experiences with rounded cables
as long as they were twisted pair, it was at least ATA66
(has mandatory checksums) and cable length was at or below 60cm.
The only problem I was with a CD burner that only used ATA33,
apparently without the checksums that are optional below ATA66.
Arno
Arno
Actually that makes sense. Or that it just has more time to spin-up
before it is detected and needs to answer commands.
Arno
Arno
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:51:12 -0700 (PDT), YKhan <yjk...@gmail.com> put
> finger to keyboard and composed:
>>On Sep 18, 1:57?am, Franc Zabkar <fzab...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>>> I agree. There seems to be no plausible causal relationship between a
>>> faulty data cable and a spin retry issue. It would be a bit like
>>> blaming a flat tyre on a flat battery.
>>
>>There is one possibility that might explain it that I've been thinking
>>of recently. When the drive was connected via IDE, it was one of the
>>first drives detected by the BIOS, whereas now that it's connected via
>>SATA it's one of the last drives. It's perhaps possible that the
>>additional resting time in between gives it more time to get ready for
>>the BIOS when the detection procedure comes around to it.
> AIUI, all drives spin up as soon as power is applied, unless you have
> enabled PUIS (power up in standby), in which case the BIOS or the OS
> could stagger the spinup. But I still can't see how either scenario
> could affect the spin retry count.
> Maybe warmer weather has made the fluid bearing a little less viscous
> ???
Hehe, possible.
But my theory would be auto-spin and if a command arrives before
spin-up is complete, have the spin-problem. It may just be that
it now has more time to complete spin-up before it needs to
answer requests.
Arno
Arno
> In article <4ab27b6b$1...@news.bnb-lp.com>, Yousuf Khan
> <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> writes
>>Well anyway, what I did recently was that I converted two of those old
>>IDE drives into SATA drives using an IDE-to-SATA converter board that
>>fits right onto the back of the drives themselves. I started noticing
>>that the Spin Retries were gone about two weeks ago, but that was only a
>>week after I installed them
> I think the change in behaviour won't have anything to do with the
> cables. A dodgy IDE cable is going to affect a lot more than the Spin
> Retry count.
> It's probably more to do with the fact hat you have now converted the
> drive to SATA. Those plug-in converters are notoriously unreliable
> (especially if you buy the ebay cheapo ones). I've used several
> different ones with mixed results. How do you know the SMART data is
> getting through from the drive correctly, if at all?
I have had reliability problems and compatibility problems
with these things, but never wrong SMART reports (I have tried
5 different ones). I would say if Yousuf gets SMART values
that they should be authentic.
Arno
YKhan
> But my theory would be auto-spin and if a command arrives before
> spin-up is complete, have the spin-problem. It may just be that
> it now has more time to complete spin-up before it needs to
> answer requests.
>
> Arno
Exactly what I was thinking.
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
> Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote
>> But my theory would be auto-spin and if a command
>> arrives before spin-up is complete, have the spin-problem.
>> It may just be that it now has more time to complete
>> spin-up before it needs to answer requests.
> Exactly what I was thinking.
Thats still not going to result in an extra spin retry in the SMART stats.
Daniel Prince
>the reason this change was done was to eventually upgrade the
>motherboard and processor down the road -- it's extremely difficult to
>find new motherboards with more than one IDE channel anymore, so I am
>preparing for the next generation.
I have a SIIG controller card with two IDE connections on it. My
brother has one too. Both work well. They are still available but
cost over $42.
http://3btech.net/siimsipciati.html
has a Silicon Image Sil0680 PCI ATA/133 IDE RAID Controller Card
with two IDE connections for $13.97 with free shipping.
If you do not have a free PCI slot for a SIIG controller, I have
seen a PCI-E card with one IDE connection, one SATA and one E-SATA
for $13.98 delivered.
http://www.microbarn.com/details.aspx?rid=102430&source=pricewatch
Yousuf Khan
> Yousuf Khan wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Yousuf Khan wrote
>
>>>> I've also rebooted the system quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is also now
>>>> starting to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
>
>>> I've never considered those numbers are very useful, what matters is the raw value.
>
>> Well, they seem to be based on the same criteria that we'd use to
>> judge quality: how many errors are there, and how often do they occur.
>
> The raw numbers for that particular drive dont support those 40% and 52%
> claims, particularly with a parameter like spin retry count thats much more
> likely to be a problem external to the drive than internal to the drive.
Well, HD Sentinel uses some kind of proprietary internal rating
equation, which seems to be logarithmic (slows down as it gets closer to
zero). I don't concern myself too much with the absolute values they
come up with, just with the relative values. In this case the relative
values has indicated an improvement in health has been noted.
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Yousuf Khan wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Yousuf Khan wrote
>>>>> I've also rebooted the system quite a bit more often than I usually do in that time. HD Sentinel is also now
>>>>> starting to upgrade its Health rating automatically, it had gone down to 40% at its lowest and today it's at 52%.
>>>> I've never considered those numbers are very useful, what matters is the raw value.
>>> Well, they seem to be based on the same criteria that we'd use to
>>> judge quality: how many errors are there, and how often do they occur.
>> The raw numbers for that particular drive dont support those 40% and 52% claims, particularly with a parameter like
>> spin retry count thats much more likely to be a problem external to the drive than internal to the drive.
> Well, HD Sentinel uses some kind of proprietary internal rating equation, which seems to be logarithmic (slows down as
> it gets closer to zero).
Its clearly terminally stupid to give that particular drive either
of those numbers to that particular drive when the bulk of
the causes for spin retry counts are external to the drive.
> I don't concern myself too much with the absolute values they come up with, just with the relative values.
It makes a lot more sense to do that with the raw SMART numbers instead.
> In this case the relative values has indicated an improvement in health has been noted.
But there isnt a shred of evidence that the health of the drive has changed one iota.
Yousuf Khan
> I have a SIIG controller card with two IDE connections on it. My
> brother has one too. Both work well. They are still available but
> cost over $42.
Well, thanks, but obviously I already have my solutions in place.
Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
And why not?
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
> And why not?
Because spin retry counts are THE DRIVE trying to the spin up the
drive and finding that the drive doesnt spin up when its supposed to.
The bios seeing that the drive isnt ready doesnt result in
an increase in the spin retry count in the SMART stats.
Yousuf Khan
> Daniel Prince wrote:
>> How long were your IDE cables? Were they flat or round?
>
>
> They were around 20 inches long, from the furthest ends.
>
> Now, they were rounded cables in both cases. I had thought of using flat
> cables, but in the crowded conditions in my case it was pretty difficult
> to use them without moving a lot of stuff around. Plus the rounded
> cables gave better cooling.
Just an update on this old issue. I finally got a chance to try the same
drives with the flat IDE cables, and the results were the same as when
using the rounded ones. Still no spin retry problem when using the SATA
converters and cables, but the problem always crops up when using any
sort of IDE cable.
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
Something very strange going on there. Most dont get spin retrys with IDE cables.
Daniel Prince
>what I did recently was that I converted two of those old
>IDE drives into SATA drives using an IDE-to-SATA converter board that
>fits right onto the back of the drives themselves.
What brand(s) of converters did you use? Did you try any of them on
optical drives?
I am having problems with my IDE cables AGAIN. I would like to get
rid of all of them.
Yousuf Khan
> Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> what I did recently was that I converted two of those old
>> IDE drives into SATA drives using an IDE-to-SATA converter board that
>> fits right onto the back of the drives themselves.
>
> What brand(s) of converters did you use? Did you try any of them on
> optical drives?
No specific brand, just bought some generic stuff off of Ebay. They are
still working great. In fact, the drive that was showing spin retry
problems has been upgraded in HD Sentinel's health ratings from 40% all
of the way upto 76% now.
I didn't try them on optical drives, just hard drives. I don't
anticipate that there would be any special issues with optical drives
though. I'm actually still running all of my optical drives off of IDE
cables though.
> I am having problems with my IDE cables AGAIN. I would like to get
> rid of all of them.
It's probably a good idea. The units cost less than $10 each (actually
usually you'll find them under $5 including shipping), so even if they
don't fix your problem, it's not a huge expense. Just make sure you get
the right type, some are for SATA devices to IDE cable, whereas others
are for IDE devices to SATA cable.
Yousuf Khan
Rod Speed
And some can be used either way.
juve...@gmail.com
I have a Toshiba HDD that shows a variable Spin Retry Count through SMART, is this possible?, one day it show a BAD state with a very high Spin Retry Count, 2 days after it shows a normal value, but with some retries, and today it shows a completely normal state without a single Spin Retry. I don't know if I must backup and replace or this is a completely normal situation. I understand SMART values are fixed, and can't be modified.
Johann Klammer
mine made click-click during bootup and had intermittent outages,
due to loose connectors. It stopped when using clamped ones.