How can I reformat a (very) damaged hard disk ?

[Castor Nageur]

Hi all,

On of my 2 TB HDD (formatted in NTFS) felt on the floor (the disk was
off when it felt).

At first, it looked as if the disk was still working fine but after
one month of use, the disk began to fail and I completely lost access
to my data a few days ago.

Thanks to ddrescue (a wonderful Linux recovery tool), I was able to
copy the recoverable data to another brand new 2 TB HDD and thanks to
some data recovery tool, I recovered about 1/3 of my data from the
copy.
(hopefully, all my personnal data was backed up so I only lost GB of
recorded TV shows ;-))

Actually, it seems that the more I try to read the damaged disk, the
more it becomes unaccessible.

I would like to find a way to reformat it so I can use the undamaged
area of the disk.
I tried the WD low-level format/erase tools, tried almost all the
tools provided on the UBCD 5 but none of these tools work.

I am pretty sure that my HDD is unrecoverable but if anyone one know a
tool which could help me, he would be welcome !

Thanks in advance.


Here is a snapshot of my current SMART data:

WDC WD20EARS-00MVWB0

ID Current Worst
ThresholdData Status
(01) Raw Read Error Rate 179 179 51
2977 ok
(03) Spin Up Time 253 201 21
1000 ok
(04) Start/Stop Count 100 100 0
228 ok
(05) Reallocated Sector Count 183 183 140
334 warning
(07) Seek Error Rate 200 200 0
0 ok
(09) Power On Hours Count 100 100 0
403 ok
(0A) Spin Retry Count 100 100 0
0 ok
(0B) Calibration Retry Count 100 100 0
0 ok
(0C) Power Cycle Count 100 100 0
189 ok
(C0) Unsafe Shutdown Count 200 200 0
158 ok
(C1) Load Cycle Count 200 200 0
826 ok
(C2) Temperature 116 106 0
34 ok
(C4) Reallocated Event Count 197 197 0
3 warning
(C5) Current Pending Sector 200 199 0
0 ok
(C6) Offline Uncorrectable 200 200 0
1 ok
(C7) Ultra DMA CRC Error Count 200 200 0
0 ok
(C8) Write Error Rate 200 200 0
1 ok

[Rod Speed]

Castor Nageur wrote:

> On of my 2 TB HDD (formatted in NTFS) felt on the floor (the disk was
> off when it felt).

> At first, it looked as if the disk was still working fine but after
> one month of use, the disk began to fail and I completely lost access
> to my data a few days ago.

> Thanks to ddrescue (a wonderful Linux recovery tool), I was able to
> copy the recoverable data to another brand new 2 TB HDD and thanks to
> some data recovery tool, I recovered about 1/3 of my data from the copy.
> (hopefully, all my personnal data was backed up so I only lost GB of
> recorded TV shows ;-))

> Actually, it seems that the more I try to read the damaged disk, the
> more it becomes unaccessible.

> I would like to find a way to reformat it so I can use the undamaged area of the disk.

Its far from clear that there actually is an undamaged area of the disk.

If the fall caused some damage that produced a head crash when the
drive was used after the fall, there may well be a significant amount of
debris floating around inside the drive and thats whats producing the
symptom you are seeing of it become more and more inaccessible.

> I tried the WD low-level format/erase tools, tried almost all the
> tools provided on the UBCD 5 but none of these tools work.

What do you mean by work ? Nothing will allow you to use the
undamaged area of the disk if there is no undamaged area of
the disk because debris is floating around in the drive.

> I am pretty sure that my HDD is unrecoverable

Yep, bet it is.

> but if anyone one know a tool which could help me, he would be welcome !

There is no such animal if debris is floating around in the drive.

> Thanks in advance.

> Here is a snapshot of my current SMART data:

> WDC WD20EARS-00MVWB0
>
> ID Current Worst
> ThresholdData Status
> (01) Raw Read Error Rate 179 179 51
> 2977 ok
> (03) Spin Up Time 253 201 21
> 1000 ok
> (04) Start/Stop Count 100 100 0
> 228 ok
> (05) Reallocated Sector Count 183 183 140
> 334 warning

Thats a hell of a lot of reallocated sectors and has
likely exceeded the capacity of the bad sector map.

[Castor Nageur]

On 27 déc, 19:16, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thats a hell of a lot of reallocated sectors and has
> likely exceeded the capacity of the bad sector map.

Yes, you are probably right :-( (I just expected that I could save a
little of this HDD I just bought $100 6 months ago).
I always dreamed of opening a HDD and see how it is made inside (even
if plenty of photos of opened HDD exist).
I can now achieve my dream ;-) and therefore I will see how much
damaged it is.

[Kirk Bubul]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:12:08 -0800 (PST), Castor Nageur
<guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I always dreamed of opening a HDD and see how it is made inside (even
>if plenty of photos of opened HDD exist).
>I can now achieve my dream ;-) and therefore I will see how much
>damaged it is.
>

You're going to need some really small Torx screwdrivers. I've used
the disassembly method to destroy old hard drives, and I've found it
easiest to take the partially disassembled drive to the local Sears
hardware department to test fit and buy the particular Torx tools I
needed.

The drives that I've taken apart have been Western Digital ones.

I doubt that you'll see physical damage once you get the platters
apart. I suspect that they'll just look like chrome-shiny discs.

[Arno]

Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,

> On of my 2 TB HDD (formatted in NTFS) felt on the floor (the disk was
> off when it felt).

> At first, it looked as if the disk was still working fine but after
> one month of use, the disk began to fail and I completely lost access
> to my data a few days ago.

> Thanks to ddrescue (a wonderful Linux recovery tool), I was able to
> copy the recoverable data to another brand new 2 TB HDD and thanks to
> some data recovery tool, I recovered about 1/3 of my data from the
> copy.
> (hopefully, all my personnal data was backed up so I only lost GB of
> recorded TV shows ;-))

> Actually, it seems that the more I try to read the damaged disk, the
> more it becomes unaccessible.

> I would like to find a way to reformat it so I can use the undamaged
> area of the disk.

Forget it. There is no "undamaged" area. Damage due to mechanical
shock always is head or bearing damage, affecting the whole
device. The defective data is just an indirect effect of that.

Arno
--
Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: ar...@wagner.name
GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
----
Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans

[GMAN]

In article <2aa03937-723a-400a...@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

If there is no sign of physical damage to the outside, contact the
manufacturer and get that thing replaced under warranty.

[Castor Nageur]

On 28 déc, 18:49, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:

> In article <2aa03937-723a-400a-83fd-983f9bfcb...@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert.stab...@gmail.com> wrote:>On 27 d=E9c, 19:16, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Thats a hell of a lot of reallocated sectors and has
> >> likely exceeded the capacity of the bad sector map.
>
> >Yes, you are probably right :-( (I just expected that I could save a
> >little of this HDD I just bought $100 6 months ago).
> >I always dreamed of opening a HDD and see how it is made inside (even
> >if plenty of photos of opened HDD exist).
> >I can now achieve my dream ;-) and therefore I will see how much
> >damaged it is.
>
> If there is no sign of physical damage to the outside, contact the
> manufacturer and get that thing replaced under warranty.

The disk has absolutely no external sign of damage.
Thanks for telling me this before I open it and definitely lost the
warranty :-)
I am just going to try to wipe what can be wiped because I do not want
to send my personal data to some unknown people.

[GMAN]

In article <eb36e0b8-73a7-472d...@v24g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 28 d=E9c, 18:49, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:
>> In article <2aa03937-723a-400a-83fd-983f9bfcb...@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.=
>com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert.stab...@gmail.com> wrote:>On 27 d=3DE9c, 19:1=

>6, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Thats a hell of a lot of reallocated sectors and has
>> >> likely exceeded the capacity of the bad sector map.
>>
>> >Yes, you are probably right :-( (I just expected that I could save a
>> >little of this HDD I just bought $100 6 months ago).
>> >I always dreamed of opening a HDD and see how it is made inside (even
>> >if plenty of photos of opened HDD exist).
>> >I can now achieve my dream ;-) and therefore I will see how much
>> >damaged it is.
>>
>> If there is no sign of physical damage to the outside, contact the
>> manufacturer and get that thing replaced under warranty.
>
>The disk has absolutely no external sign of damage.
>Thanks for telling me this before I open it and definitely lost the
>warranty :-)
>I am just going to try to wipe what can be wiped because I do not want
>to send my personal data to some unknown people.
>

Good idea. If not possible, i wouldnt sweat it as the manufacturers dont have
a habbit of doing that. But if possle, do a wipe at least using some program
like this free one. Dont let the name fool you , its not a true llf like in
the old days. Its as close as one can get, it wipes the drive.



http://hddguru.com/software/HDD-LLF-Low-Level-Format-Tool/

[Castor Nageur]

On 28 déc, 23:41, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:

> Good idea.  If not possible, i wouldnt sweat it as the manufacturers dont have
> a habbit of doing that. But if possle, do a wipe at least using some program
> like  this free one. Dont let the name fool you , its not a true llf like in
> the old days. Its as close as one can get, it wipes the drive.
>
> http://hddguru.com/software/HDD-LLF-Low-Level-Format-Tool/

Thanks for the tool, I am going to try it.

I just filled the RMA so I can return the disk to WDC.
I wrote "H.S" (~ "out of order" in English) on the disk label with a
pencil so I do not confuse it with a good disk (I have many Caviar
Green HDD at home). The label is still perfectly readable. Do you
think writing on the disk could cancel the guarantee ?

[GMAN]

In article <56941aa6-119d-4b8f...@m20g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 28 d=E9c, 23:41, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:
>
>> Good idea. =A0If not possible, i wouldnt sweat it as the manufacturers do=
>nt have
>> a habbit of doing that. But if possle, do a wipe at least using some prog=
>ram
>> like =A0this free one. Dont let the name fool you , its not a true llf li=

>ke in
>> the old days. Its as close as one can get, it wipes the drive.
>>
>> http://hddguru.com/software/HDD-LLF-Low-Level-Format-Tool/
>
>Thanks for the tool, I am going to try it.
>
>I just filled the RMA so I can return the disk to WDC.
>I wrote "H.S" (~ "out of order" in English) on the disk label with a
>pencil so I do not confuse it with a good disk (I have many Caviar
>Green HDD at home). The label is still perfectly readable. Do you
>think writing on the disk could cancel the guarantee ?

Just wipe it off before you put it in the box to ship to WD.

[Castor Nageur]

On 29 déc, 18:41, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:

> Just wipe it off before you put it in the box to ship to WD.

Impossible, this is the pencil with the permanent ink I use for
writing on my cds.
I am going to try. I will only lose the postage if it does not work.

[Joseph Terner]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:06:56 -0800, Castor Nageur wrote:

> The disk has absolutely no external sign of damage.
> Thanks for telling me this before I open it and definitely lost the
> warranty :-)

You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.

> I am just going to try to wipe what can be wiped because I do not want
> to send my personal data to some unknown people.

For legit RMA cases (say SMART self-test failures due to defective
sectors) just send the drive an ATA SECURITY ERASE command with MHDD.
Then it wipes itself without further intervention and is ready for
shipping.

A fall-damaged drive is not able to read, write or erase something
reliable. The only way to make sure, there isn't any data left, is to
dismantle it phsysically.

Joseph

[Castor Nageur]

On 29 déc, 20:11, Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote:

> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
> So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.

Yes, I suppose you are right.
Because the drive did not fall from a high point and was off (the HDD
was initially set vertically in an external box then fell flat on the
floor). I expected that this event may not be the cause of my
problems.
I neither gave my credit car number nor sent the drive yet. I think I
will keep my damaged drive.

But what happen if you buy a HDD damaged by the vendor (so you can't
know it before you buy it) and you get problems months later.
Will WD charge you $200 for fixing the drive ?

[Rod Speed]

Castor Nageur wrote

> Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote

>> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
>> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
>> So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.

> Yes, I suppose you are right.

No he isnt.

> Because the drive did not fall from a high point and was off (the HDD
> was initially set vertically in an external box then fell flat on the floor).
> I expected that this event may not be the cause of my problems.

Likely it was.

> I neither gave my credit car number nor sent the drive yet.
> I think I will keep my damaged drive.

> But what happen if you buy a HDD damaged by the vendor (so you
> can't know it before you buy it) and you get problems months later.

WD gets to supply you with a new drive.

> Will WD charge you $200 for fixing the drive ?

Nope, they cant.

[Arno]

Joseph Terner <jtusene...@gmx.de> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:06:56 -0800, Castor Nageur wrote:

>> The disk has absolutely no external sign of damage.
>> Thanks for telling me this before I open it and definitely lost the
>> warranty :-)

> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
> So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.

And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.

>> I am just going to try to wipe what can be wiped because I do not want
>> to send my personal data to some unknown people.

> For legit RMA cases (say SMART self-test failures due to defective
> sectors) just send the drive an ATA SECURITY ERASE command with MHDD.
> Then it wipes itself without further intervention and is ready for
> shipping.

> A fall-damaged drive is not able to read, write or erase something
> reliable. The only way to make sure, there isn't any data left, is to
> dismantle it phsysically.

Indeed.

[Arno]

Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Difficult. Typically yes, unless you can show it was
damaged in shipping.

[Castor Nageur]

On 30 déc, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.

I did not want to fraud or being immoral. The unit just fell from
vertical to horizontal position so I am not sure this is the
consequence of my problems.

* Is there a way to access to the g-sensors data ?

* Does my SMART data reflect a damage due to a g-shock ?

If the sensors are OK, I suppose I can send the HDD back to WD.
Thanks in advance for helping me.

[Castor Nageur]

On 30 déc, 13:14, Castor Nageur <guilbert.stab...@gmail.com> wrote:

> * Is there a way to access to the g-sensors data ?

I found that my new Seagate drive has a "g-sense error rate" SMART
property so I suppose this is the sensor you were talking about. I
deduce that my faulty drive does not have the property so it has no g-
sensor.

[GMAN]

In article <992e9b11-2541-4128...@j9g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is you meant a permamnant marker, then a small amount of rubbing alchohol will
remove the ink. I wouldnt worry about it though, they would most likely not
care if its written on. I have put a large X on my drives when damaged and
they never minded.

[GMAN]

In article <871bc3f7-7ce1-4c9b...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 29 d=E9c, 20:11, Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
>> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
>> So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.
>
>Yes, I suppose you are right.
>Because the drive did not fall from a high point and was off (the HDD
>was initially set vertically in an external box then fell flat on the
>floor). I expected that this event may not be the cause of my
>problems.
>I neither gave my credit car number nor sent the drive yet. I think I
>will keep my damaged drive.

\\\


You only have to give a credit card number if you are expecting them to cross
ship or advance ship a replacement to you. If you are just sending it in and
then they are sending out a replacement, you do not need a credit card number
on file. Dont let people scare you, get a replacement from WD.

>
>But what happen if you buy a HDD damaged by the vendor (so you can't
>know it before you buy it) and you get problems months later.
>Will WD charge you $200 for fixing the drive ?

NO,

[GMAN]

In article <3c3bfc0a-253d-4d8d...@d9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 30 d=E9c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>

>I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>the cause of the problem.
>
>* Is there a way to access the g-sensors so I am sure about this ?
>
>* Does my SMART data (cf. my first post) tends to prove that my HDD
>was damaged by a g-shock ?
>
>If the sensors are OK, I think I could return my disk back to WD.
>
>Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>
Send it back, quit listening to some of the high and mighty pontification
going on and just RMA the drive.


If it wasnt able to handle the simple few G shock that it suffered then it
failed the design specs. It should have been able to handle 10 times that many
G's in a parked head situation.


RMA it.

[Salam]

Arno wrote:
> Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 29 d?c, 20:11, Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
>>> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the
>>> drive. So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement
>>> drive.
>
>> Yes, I suppose you are right.
>> Because the drive did not fall from a high point and was off (the HDD
>> was initially set vertically in an external box then fell flat on the
>> floor). I expected that this event may not be the cause of my
>> problems.
>> I neither gave my credit car number nor sent the drive yet. I think I
>> will keep my damaged drive.
>
>> But what happen if you buy a HDD damaged by the vendor (so you can't
>> know it before you buy it) and you get problems months later.
>> Will WD charge you $200 for fixing the drive ?
>
> Difficult.

For the hard drive manufacturer, yes.

> Typically yes, unless you can show it was
> damaged in shipping.

Its the hard drive manufacturer that has to do the showing, not the consumer.

[Joseph Terner]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:14:31 -0800, Castor Nageur wrote:
> On 30 déc, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>
> I did not want to fraud or being immoral.

This is not about morality. Handling damage is just not covered by this
sort of limited warranty. This is the reason, why it is called
"limited". :-)

> The unit just fell from
> vertical to horizontal position so I am not sure this is the consequence
> of my problems.

WD specifies a maximum of 250 G / 2 ms shock non-operating, which is
rather low. The standard spec for desktop drives is 350 G and up to 1000
G/ms for notebook drives (all non-operating). So it's quite possible to
damage a delicate desktop drive fatally by tipping it over on a hard
surface.

> * Is there a way to access to the g-sensors data ?
>
> * Does my SMART data reflect a damage due to a g-shock ?
>
> If the sensors are OK, I suppose I can send the HDD back to WD. Thanks
> in advance for helping me.

The sensors may be accessible over the serial port (RS232, not SATA) of
the drive. The problem is: Operating a handling damaged drive does more
damage inside the drive over time, which is visible to the expert eye
after opening.

Joseph

[Castor Nageur]

On 30 déc, 19:15, Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote:

> The sensors may be accessible over the serial port (RS232, not SATA) of
> the drive. The problem is: Operating a handling damaged drive does more
> damage inside the drive over time, which is visible to the expert eye
> after opening.

Thanks for all this technical information.
As I said in my previous post, my recent Seagate Barracuda Green
(ST2000DL003-9VT166) has the "g-sense error rate" sensor accessible
through the SMART data. According to the sensor name, I suppose it
detects read errors due to g-shocks so it won't work when the unit is
off.

Because I can not be sure of what damaged my drive unit and because it
is true that I shocked it, I will not return it. The last reason is I
am unable to wipe all my personal data and I do not want to send it to
unknown people.
I will just go to the shop and buy another disk. Moreover, it seems
that HDD prices began decreasing since early December ;-)

[Rod Speed]

Joseph Terner wrote
> Castor Nageur wrote

>> Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote

>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.

>> I did not want to fraud or being immoral.

> This is not about morality. Handling damage is
> just not covered by this sort of limited warranty.

Thats just plain wrong.

> This is the reason, why it is called "limited". :-)

Wrong again.

>> The unit just fell from vertical to horizontal position so
>> I am not sure this is the consequence of my problems.

> WD specifies a maximum of 250 G / 2 ms shock non-operating,
> which is rather low. The standard spec for desktop drives is 350 G
> and up to 1000 G/ms for notebook drives (all non-operating). So it's
> quite possible to damage a delicate desktop drive fatally by tipping it
> over on a hard surface.

Doesnt meet the fit for purpose test.

>> * Is there a way to access to the g-sensors data ?

>> * Does my SMART data reflect a damage due to a g-shock ?

>> If the sensors are OK, I suppose I can send the HDD back to WD.
>> Thanks in advance for helping me.

> The sensors may be accessible over the serial port (RS232, not SATA)
> of the drive. The problem is: Operating a handling damaged drive does
> more damage inside the drive over time, which is visible to the
> expert eye after opening.

Irrelevant to whether its covered by the warranty.

[Arno]

christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 30 d?c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.

> I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
> vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
> the cause of the problem.

On a hard surface, a few centimeters is quite enough. 300G is not
that much.

[Arno]

GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
> In article <3c3bfc0a-253d-4d8d...@d9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 30 d=E9c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>
>>I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>>vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>>the cause of the problem.
>>
>>* Is there a way to access the g-sensors so I am sure about this ?
>>
>>* Does my SMART data (cf. my first post) tends to prove that my HDD
>>was damaged by a g-shock ?
>>
>>If the sensors are OK, I think I could return my disk back to WD.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>
> Send it back, quit listening to some of the high and mighty pontification
> going on and just RMA the drive.

"High an mighty"? This increases prices for those that do not
kill their disks. Nothing "high and mighty" about that.

> If it wasnt able to handle the simple few G shock that it suffered then it
> failed the design specs. It should have been able to handle 10 times that many
> G's in a parked head situation.

300G is not much when falling on a hard surface. A few cm are
already too much.

[Arno]

Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Or none that shows up in the SMART data. It may still have one.
I have seen g-force sensors on drives without that SMART attibute.

[Arno]

Typically the HDD vendor can demonstrate improper handling so
the customer has no claim against them and the burden of proof
is reversed.

The customer can make a claim against the vendor, but that is
difficult.

[Arno]

GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
> In article <871bc3f7-7ce1-4c9b...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>, Castor Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 29 d=E9c, 20:11, Joseph Terner <jtusenet-nos...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>> You already lost it by dropping the drive on the floor. Damage by
>>> excessive G-forces is easily detected by just looking inside the drive.
>>> So WD bills your credit card with $200 for the replacement drive.
>>
>>Yes, I suppose you are right.
>>Because the drive did not fall from a high point and was off (the HDD
>>was initially set vertically in an external box then fell flat on the
>>floor). I expected that this event may not be the cause of my
>>problems.
>>I neither gave my credit car number nor sent the drive yet. I think I
>>will keep my damaged drive.
> \\\


> You only have to give a credit card number if you are expecting them to cross
> ship or advance ship a replacement to you. If you are just sending it in and
> then they are sending out a replacement, you do not need a credit card number
> on file. Dont let people scare you, get a replacement from WD.

And possibly a fat bill later. I have seen it happen. However
they may still not bill you in the interest of public relations.
With the current HDD shortage it is a bit risky speculating on that.

[Arno]

They replace the label anyways if the drive can be refurbished.
(About 2/3 of the drives sent in are fine, apparently.)

[Salam]

Bet they can not in this particular case.

so
> the customer has no claim against them and the burden of proof
> is reversed.

Nope.

> The customer can make a claim against the vendor, but that is
> difficult.

Nope, not in jurisdictions with viable consumer law.

[Salam]

The worst that can happen is that they send it back and claim that
it is not covered by warranty because he damaged it himself.

> I have seen it happen.

Not to anyone with even half a clue about the law you have not.

However
> they may still not bill you in the interest of public relations.

They will not bill you, at worst they may just refuse the warranty claim
if it does have internal G sensors which show what happened to the drive.

> With the current HDD shortage it is a bit risky speculating on that.

The worst risk is that they refuse to honor the warranty.

That is no worse than not claiming on the warranty in the first place.

[Arno]

Well Roddels, calling EU consumer law non-viable is
pretty stupid. As usual.

[Salam]

That aint EU consumer law you stupid drug crazed drunken pig ignorant fuckwit.

[GMAN]

In article <9m8i4l...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 d?c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>
>> I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>> vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>> the cause of the problem.
>
>On a hard surface, a few centimeters is quite enough. 300G is not
>that much.
>
>Arno
>

It would rip our body apart.

[GMAN]

In article <9m8i83...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>> In article
> <3c3bfc0a-253d-4d8d...@d9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, christophe
> colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 30 d=E9c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>>
>>>I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>>>vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>>>the cause of the problem.
>>>
>>>* Is there a way to access the g-sensors so I am sure about this ?
>>>
>>>* Does my SMART data (cf. my first post) tends to prove that my HDD
>>>was damaged by a g-shock ?
>>>
>>>If the sensors are OK, I think I could return my disk back to WD.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>>>
>>>
>> Send it back, quit listening to some of the high and mighty pontification
>> going on and just RMA the drive.
>
>"High an mighty"? This increases prices for those that do not
>kill their disks. Nothing "high and mighty" about that.
>

You are the one who put the religious guilt trip on him.

>> If it wasnt able to handle the simple few G shock that it suffered then it
>> failed the design specs. It should have been able to handle 10 times that
> many
>> G's in a parked head situation.
>
>300G is not much when falling on a hard surface. A few cm are
>already too much.
>
>Arno

Still, if it suffered damaged when it stated a higher G shock spec, then it
failed and should be covered under warranty, period.

[GMAN]

In article <9m8ioo...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>> In article
> <992e9b11-2541-4128...@j9g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, Castor
> Nageur <guilbert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On 29 d=E9c, 18:41, Winniethep...@100acrewoods.net (GMAN) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just wipe it off before you put it in the box to ship to WD.
>>>
>>>Impossible, this is the pencil with the permanent ink I use for
>>>writing on my cds.
>>>I am going to try. I will only lose the postage if it does not work.
>>>
>> Is you meant a permamnant marker, then a small amount of rubbing alchohol
> will
>> remove the ink. I wouldnt worry about it though, they would most likely not
>> care if its written on. I have put a large X on my drives when damaged and
>> they never minded.
>
>They replace the label anyways if the drive can be refurbished.
>(About 2/3 of the drives sent in are fine, apparently.)
>
>Arno

And THAT is what costs the rest of us in HIGHER drive costs. Not making a
warranty claim on a known defective drive.

[Arno]

GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
> In article <9m8i83...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>>> In article
>> <3c3bfc0a-253d-4d8d...@d9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, christophe
>> colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On 30 d=E9c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>>>
>>>>I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>>>>vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>>>>the cause of the problem.
>>>>
>>>>* Is there a way to access the g-sensors so I am sure about this ?
>>>>
>>>>* Does my SMART data (cf. my first post) tends to prove that my HDD
>>>>was damaged by a g-shock ?
>>>>
>>>>If the sensors are OK, I think I could return my disk back to WD.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Send it back, quit listening to some of the high and mighty pontification
>>> going on and just RMA the drive.
>>
>>"High an mighty"? This increases prices for those that do not
>>kill their disks. Nothing "high and mighty" about that.
>>

> You are the one who put the religious guilt trip on him.

I most certainly did not do anything "religious". Moral and
ethics are coopted by religion frequently, but they are
not religious concepts. Guilt was also not my intention or
aim. If you belive that religion is required for wanting to
behave altruistic, moral or ethical than you _have_ a problem.

>>> If it wasnt able to handle the simple few G shock that it suffered then it
>>> failed the design specs. It should have been able to handle 10 times that
>> many
>>> G's in a parked head situation.
>>
>>300G is not much when falling on a hard surface. A few cm are
>>already too much.
>>
>>Arno

> Still, if it suffered damaged when it stated a higher G shock spec, then it
> failed and should be covered under warranty, period.

It most likely suffered significantly in excess of what it stated.
Quit the consumer apologist line already. The user broke it.

[Arno]

Depends on the situation entirely. Maybe have a look into
physics 101? You seem to be pretty weak there.

[Salam]

It is clearly not fit for purpose if the user broke it like that.

[GMAN]

It is a problem when you put such a trip on someone here looking for help that
they dont return a drive that is FULLY under warranty.

[GMAN]

In article <9md8l1...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>> In article <9m8i4l...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 30 d?c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>>
>>>> I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>>>> vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>>>> the cause of the problem.
>>>
>>>On a hard surface, a few centimeters is quite enough. 300G is not
>>>that much.
>>>
>>>Arno
>>>
>> It would rip our body apart.
>
>Depends on the situation entirely. Maybe have a look into
>physics 101? You seem to be pretty weak there.
>
>Arno

FUCK you

Weak is being named after a Muppett!!!!

[Arno]

And there you are wrong. A raw HDD is a component. There is no
"expected normal use" for that, if you violate what is in
the datasheet then your warranty is gone. And they can basically
put anything in the datasheet that is technologically somewhat
justified, as this is not a device intended for end-users.

Ans since you still have no idea how little a fall it takes
to exceed 300G (or 500G) for 2ms, I suggest you stop commenting
on the technical facts.

[Arno]

I am sure this does wonders for your credibility. <plonk>

[Salam]

We'll see...

> A raw HDD is a component.

Wrong with an external drive.

> There is no "expected normal use" for that,

Wrong as always, even with an internal drive.

> if you violate what is in the datasheet then your warranty is gone.

Wrong as always.

> And they can basically put anything in the datasheet
> that is technologically somewhat justified,

Wrong as always.

> as this is not a device intended for end-users.

Wrong with an external drive.

> Ans since you still have no idea how little a fall it takes to exceed 300G
> (or 500G) for 2ms, I suggest you stop commenting on the technical facts.

After you stop making a VERY spectacular fool of yourself on the most basic consumer law.

[arno fucker]

Arno wrote:
>> GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>>> In article <9md8l1...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>>>>> In article <9m8i4l...@mid.individual.net>, Arno
>>>>> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>> christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 30 d?c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>>>>>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell
>>>>>>> from vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that
>>>>>>> it was not the cause of the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a hard surface, a few centimeters is quite enough. 300G is not
>>>>>> that much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arno
>>>>>>
>>>>> It would rip our body apart.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the situation entirely. Maybe have a look into
>>>> physics 101? You seem to be pretty weak there.
>>>>
>>>> Arno
>>> FUCK you
>>
>>> Weak is being named after a Muppett!!!!
>>
>> I am sure this does wonders for your credibility.

You never ever had any of that.

> <plonk>

Bet that will make him curl up and die for sure.

> Arno
> --
> Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: ar...@wagner.name

Wota fucking wanker...

[Joseph Terner]

Someone wrote:
> From: "arno fucker" <a...@arnofucker.com>
> Message-ID: <9mfupi...@mid.individual.net>
> X-Trace: individual.net g6Pgc3Jd9RPQ81nwf7tWaQXzmnN/jM79x7oj13sltxc5s/Ucg=
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670

You are bound to <http://news.individual.net/rules.php> here, you know?

Obey them or you may lose your posting privileges.

Joseph

[GMAN]

In article <9mepfb...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>> In article <9md8l1...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>GMAN <Winnie...@100acrewoods.net> wrote:
>>>> In article <9m8i4l...@mid.individual.net>, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>christophe colomb <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 30 d?c, 12:52, Arno <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And modern HDDs often have g-sensors, just for this purpose.
>>>>>>> Also know that what you intend to do is fraud and immoral.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not want to fraud or being immoral : the drive only fell from
>>>>>> vertical to horizontal position and I just expected that it was not
>>>>>> the cause of the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>On a hard surface, a few centimeters is quite enough. 300G is not
>>>>>that much.
>>>>>
>>>>>Arno
>>>>>
>>>> It would rip our body apart.
>>>
>>>Depends on the situation entirely. Maybe have a look into
>>>physics 101? You seem to be pretty weak there.
>>>
>>>Arno
>> FUCK you
>
>> Weak is being named after a Muppett!!!!
>
>I am sure this does wonders for your credibility. <plonk>
>
>Arno

The only one who gives a care about my cred is you.