Zone66 can go stuff itself.
Anssi Saari
>Yes, I downloaded Zone66 from wuarchive, and I don't care how good a game
>is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
>IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
>but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
>like a quick game.
People seem to think there is some sort of reason to use boot disks. I don't
see why, as there are several multi-configuration programs out there, like
boot.sys, autocon and menuboot, to name a few.
> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
>is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
>whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
Well, your subject line pretty much sums up my opinion of the game,
which is that it sucks.
The only good thing is the music and sound effects. I guess it has now
been proved that even on a 486-33 smooth scrolling is impossible. I
mean, if Renaissance can't do it, then who can? I hope someone will
prove me wrong, maybe Cyberstrike?
As for game play itself, it's really boring: you take off, fly to
enemy installations, drop bombs, go back to base, rearm and refuel and
take off again. Do this a few dozen times and a few continues and
that's it. No variation, no increasing difficulty level, no weapon
power-ups, no new enemies, just the same three types of enemy planes.
This really demonstrates what's so great about shareware: you get to
try it, and can nuke it if you don't like it.
Anssi
--
Anssi Saari s10...@ee.tut.fi
Tampere University of Technology
Finland, Europe
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
> IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
> but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
> like a quick game.
> good game, the boot disk is necessary, otherwise settle for a not so good
> game without the boot disk.
> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
> is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
> whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
I will...
Too bad you are going to miss out on upcoming Renaissance games. As the
protected mode system gets better and better (and doesn't use that damn HIMEM)
the games will get better and better. Ah, well. That's your problem.
Josh
Daniel Crowson
>
> I did read the doc, and it said something like - if we wanted a really
>good game, the boot disk is necessary, otherwise settle for a not so good
>game without the boot disk.
> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
>is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
>whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
>
>
>
Well, they are very good programmers on a non-friendly system. To use
the quick 386+ protected modes, memmory managers and the like must be
removed.
I guess you don't have to try it since you're so lazy... Why not go
back to a mac and a mouse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Crowson | mu...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
Computer Science Student | crow...@vax3.siue.edu
Western Illinois University | Hacker --> IRC
Mark Harrison
>
>is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
>IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
>but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
>like a quick game.
I don't like the boot disk either. If you can't handle it, just don't
play it. I at least checked it out.
> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
>is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
>whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
>
>flame away...
Minor flame. I don't know about all the members of the group who did
this, but I do know that at least one of them is still in high school.
That's right, HIGH SCHOOL. Now I say that despite the minor inconviences,
they did a damn good job considering their age. Wait until they get some
experience under their belts and then we'll see what they're capable of.
--
=============================================================================
Mark Harrison | "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
harr...@sun.lclark.edu | Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
-- Me | -- Rush
Robert keng
:
: Yes, I downloaded Zone66 from wuarchive, and I don't care how good a game
: is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
: IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
: but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
: like a quick game.
It is necessary to remove your memory managers in order to play this game
which operates in protected mode. Takes about 2 seconds to bring it up in dos
edit and then put three letters infront of the memory manager command(s) to
disable them. How HARD is that?!? You DON'T really have to use a bootdisk!
: I did read the doc, and it said something like - if we wanted a really
: good game, the boot disk is necessary, otherwise settle for a not so good
: game without the boot disk.
Refer to my last statement...
: I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
: is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
: whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
:
: flame away...
:
Although there isn't much in terms of gameplay in this game (fly around and
drop bombs on cities and shoot down enemy fighters), it did demonstrate that
Renaissance is capable of writing a good arcade style game. The graphical and
music effects really shine, as my system NEVER slowed down even when the
screen is packed with dozens of sprites. The scrolling certainly is helluva lot
smoother than what I encountered in Ultima 7 (which is pitiful, IMHO),
although it's kind of hard comparing the two games. All this for about 2 megs
or less. Not bad, I'd say, and it's shareware!!
Expect to see more games like this that requires you to use a clean bootdisk
or alter your autoexec.bat and config.sys. The "normal" environment of using
EMS is just not good for games (too slow, for one thing) anymore. I'm
certainly gonna support Renaissance so that they'll produce even better games
in the future. I believe my ist 4 mission pack is on it's way :-)
Now let's see what FC can do!
-Rob
: /\ \
: /#\\ BrEtT pAtErSoN: <- nO i Am NoT dYsLeXiC. \
: /#\#/----------------------------------------------/
: /#\#/ email : s107...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au /
: \\#/ Leongatha, Victoria, Australia. /
: \/______________________________________________/
:
:
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> been proved that even on a 486-33 smooth scrolling is impossible. I
> mean, if Renaissance can't do it, then who can? I hope someone will
> prove me wrong, maybe Cyberstrike?
CyberStrike will prove you wrong. I have every intention of releasing a demo
(probably nonplayable) of the game in the next week or so. 60fps
constant--smooth. That's right, smooth. Without lots of animations going at
once, the game even works at 8 mhz.
Josh
Donald K. Wong
Sorry to jump in here, but how is Zone 66 not smooth on a 486-33? I play it
on a 386-33 and it's one of the smoothest games I've played...Is it my
GUS that makes the difference?
--
Donald K. Wong
Internet: c60c...@web.berkeley.edu
khw...@ocf.berkeley.edu
Ranseus (Jim Knepley)
>In article <1993Mar16.1...@cc.usu.edu> sl...@cc.usu.edu writes:
>>> The only good thing is the music and sound effects. I guess it has now
>>> been proved that even on a 486-33 smooth scrolling is impossible. I
>>> mean, if Renaissance can't do it, then who can? I hope someone will
>>> prove me wrong, maybe Cyberstrike?
>
>on a 386-33 and it's one of the smoothest games I've played...Is it my
>GUS that makes the difference?
That's quite possible. Zone 66 is as smooth as silk on my 386sx/16 with a
GUS. The music is really nice, too.
Jim
--
----- kne...@cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------
Jim "Ranseus" Knepley | Avoid rectal-cranial inversion.
Programmer, magician, | "Gun's don't kill, it's those bullet things"
computer geek. |
ro...@cobrat.austin.ibm.com
congratulations and thanks for a great game. I bought my GUS card Saturday
and so I was really lovin it playing Zone (right after I watched the
Daretro for a while).
I'm sure I'll order the additional packs and support your efforts, but first
I'd like to rack up more than 50 points ... I'm getting killed?? Can someone
give me some tips on how to get going. My chubby little fingers just arn't
what they used to be.
I set option to make the opponent as weak as possible, and I've mostly been
using the fast plane but the enemy fighters jump on me quick and I'm too
harassed to land and refuel.
Any idea??
marc fairorth
ma...@wizards.austin.ibm.com
Michael Chen
>>Sorry to jump in here, but how is Zone 66 not smooth on a 486-33? I play it
>>on a 386-33 and it's one of the smoothest games I've played...Is it my
>>GUS that makes the difference?
>That's quite possible. Zone 66 is as smooth as silk on my 386sx/16 with a
>GUS. The music is really nice, too.
I can't believe that. I tried it on two different 486-33 systems in addition
to my own, and the scrolling is jerky, not smooth. The two other computers
didn't have soundcards, I have a GUS, so that can't be an explanation.
I guess we just have different ideas of smooth scrolling.
I don't understand what you WOULD call smooth scrolling... there's no visible
hiccups or anything... it's fast and fluid. (On a 386SX-25 this time.) Are
you referring to the background tiles, sprites, or both?
--
Michael Chen | From the depths of our most lucid horrors |
| spring our fond hopes and pure desires... |
mc...@cs.psu.edu | except what comes from HELL! :-) 7/23/92 |
Thomas Wong
I don't know what all the complaints out there is all about.
Every game out there (almost) needs either a boot disk or a clean
config.sys/autoexec.bat. WWII, Falcon 3.0...etc. All the popular
games out there all needs gobs of memory nowadays. Yes I have DOS 5
and I do load things high. But what I find is I need a
config.sys/autoexec.bat combo for when I do work and need to load a
bunch of drivers and doskey and so forth. Then when I play ANY game, I
just have a clean set of config.sys/autoexec.bat that I boot off so that
I can play Falcon 3.0 or WWII or whatever. That's the way games are
nowadays. I wish they weren't but they all need gobs of conventional
memory. So by complaining about Zone 66, you're just complaining about
PC games nowadays in general.
Thomas.
Anssi Saari
>In article <s106275....@ee.tut.fi> s10...@ee.tut.fi (Anssi Saari) writes:
>I don't understand what you WOULD call smooth scrolling... there's no visible
>hiccups or anything... it's fast and fluid. (On a 386SX-25 this time.)
Fast it is, and no hiccups. But, when the screen scrolls, it doesn't
scroll smoothly, it seems jump more than one pixel at a time. That's why
I call it jerky.
>Are you referring to the background tiles, sprites, or both?
Background, of course. It's the only thing that is scrolling. Now, the
limitation in turning angles is another matter, but no less annoying.
Robert Wiegand
>Too bad you are going to miss out on upcoming Renaissance games. As the
>protected mode system gets better and better (and doesn't use that damn HIMEM)
>the games will get better and better. Ah, well. That's your problem.
No, thats Renaissance's problem. Pissing-off users is a bad way to run
a business. If they expect to make money off their games they better
make them more compatible with what the rest of the world is doing.
I for one will be voting with my wallet - they aren't going to
be getting any of my money.
I also don't believe the garbage about needing a boot disk to get the
performance to run the game. Wolf3D manages to run real-time 3D graphics
on a *286* with no problem.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
wie...@rtsg.mot.com
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
David Baggett
and the scrolling is jerky, not smooth.
Some VGA cards are faster than others. This can make a huge difference.
Dave Baggett
__
d...@ai.mit.edu Natural Language Processing MIT AI Lab
ADVENTIONS: We make Kuul text adventures! Ask about Unnkulian 1, 2, 0, 1/2
PO Box 851 Columbia, MD 21044 USA / CIS: 76440,2671 / GEnie: ADVENTIONS
David Vu
> In <Mar17.151...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> kne...@CS.ColoState.EDU (Ranseus (Jim Knepley)) writes:
>
> >>Sorry to jump in here, but how is Zone 66 not smooth on a 486-33? I play it
> >>on a 386-33 and it's one of the smoothest games I've played...Is it my
> >>GUS that makes the difference?
>
> >That's quite possible. Zone 66 is as smooth as silk on my 386sx/16 with a
> >GUS. The music is really nice, too.
>
> to my own, and the scrolling is jerky, not smooth. The two other computers
> didn't have soundcards, I have a GUS, so that can't be an explanation.
> I guess we just have different ideas of smooth scrolling.
Could be the different VGA cards used. Zone 66 use low-level VGA register
programming, so if it's not IBM VGA register-compatible,
it might flicker, scroll jerkily, whatever...
David
JOHNATHAN LEWIS HARRIS
>
> I don't know what all the complaints out there is all about.
> Every game out there (almost) needs either a boot disk or a clean
> config.sys/autoexec.bat. WWII, Falcon 3.0...etc. All the popular
> games out there all needs gobs of memory nowadays.
EXACTLY! like ems, or xms, which most programs need a driver to use, which
requires you to load. This is the first game ive ever had (will delete soon)
that required a clean config, have had to disable stuff before but never
take everything outta memory.
Yes I have DOS 5
> and I do load things high. But what I find is I need a
> config.sys/autoexec.bat combo for when I do work and need to load a
> bunch of drivers and doskey and so forth. Then when I play ANY game, I
> just have a clean set of config.sys/autoexec.bat that I boot off so that
> I can play Falcon 3.0 or WWII or whatever. That's the way games are
> nowadays. I wish they weren't but they all need gobs of conventional
> memory. So by complaining about Zone 66, you're just complaining about
> PC games nowadays in general.
NO not really Ive played many of the popular games, and also since like alot
of people I'm running a disk compression program having to boot clean is a prob
-Johnathan Harris
jlha...@eos.ncsu.edu
Kurt Edward Johnson
>In article <1993Mar16....@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> s107...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (BrEtT pAtErSoN) writes:
>
>>is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
>>IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
>>but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
>>like a quick game.
>
>
>(I can't live without at least 2 different boot configurations (I use 7! ;) )
>
> __________________ __
> \_________________|)____.---'--`---.____
> || \----.________.----/
> || / / `--' la...@mits.mdata.fi
> __||____/ /_
> |___ \
> `--------'
I've got about 15 :) I even wrote a little menu program over the
summer that will let me choose one and reboot the computer. A 386-SX
16 can't always run things with memory managers and TSR's :)
If you don't want to use a boot disk, just make a bare AUTOEXEC and
CONFIG and make a batch file to copy them and reboot.
Besides, I think the game is worth it. The GUS support is AWSOME. I
tried the game with my Sound Blaster just to see what it was like. If
I didn't have the GUS, I'd say the SB support is great, but I have a
GUS. There is no bass with the SB and the sound effects are hard to
hear above the music. It was also jerky and the ship was hard to
control with the SB. An option to turn the music off but keep the sound
effects would've been nice. But the GUS eliminated all the slow downs
and when a bomb blew up, it BLEW UP! And the GUS hath BASS! I can't
wait to play the game with my brother's sterio system instead of my
wimpy 7 year old boom box.
I say great job to Renaissance. I can't wait for Cyberstrike.
BTW - Josh, what is Cyberstrike. The doc files mentioning it have
compared it to another game, but I'm unfamiliar with it. Can you give
us a description, or is it going to be a surprise :)
Kurt
David Baggett
> I did read the doc, and it said something like - if we wanted a really
>good game, the boot disk is necessary, otherwise settle for a not so good
>game without the boot disk.
It's *annoying* that you have to run it from a boot disk, but is it so
much of a big deal that you're tossing the game because of it? Jeez.
It would be *better* if you could run it from DOS, but is it totally
worthless because you can't?
> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
>is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
>whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
Zone 66 is well-programmed; it just uses a mode that's fairly new to
the PC games scene, and therefore some of the kinks aren't quite worked
out. It could be written to not clobber QEMM, 386Max, etc. but that
would be more work, and the author was probably more interested in
experimenting with protected mode game programming then writing the
world's most compatible DOS extender. In any case, it's certainly not
incompetence that makes the game require a boot disk.
Finally, it IS possible to have a "tiny sprite" with a scrolling
background in DOS mode (i.e., 640K). But it is not necessarily
possible to have as much image data as they have in Zone 66. The
images are big, and they're 256 color (byte-per-pixel). In that
resolution a single screen takes up almost 64K -- more than a tenth of
the conventional RAM available. You can use XMS and EMS for the image
data that won't fit in conventional memory, but this is much slower
than using protected mode, as Zone 66 does.
In any case, it's not a game I'd say "whooppeee" about in terms of
programming. It may not be the most intriguing thing in terms of
gameplay, but technically it's pretty impressive. Beyond all that, you
can get a playable subset of it for free; it seems like you're looking
a gift horse in the mouth here.
Followups to rec.games.programmer, where you can find out more details
about the difficulties with game programming on the PC, and why Zone 66
uses what may eventually a standard method in PC games. (I.e.,
protected mode). This has been the subject of a lot of discussion
lately.
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> a business. If they expect to make money off their games they better
> make them more compatible with what the rest of the world is doing.
Oh, yes, a boot disk really pisses off users. Give it up, man! Look at all of
the people who don't mind using a boot disk. Look at all of the above
messages. These people definitely do not hold YOUR ATTITUDE.
> I for one will be voting with my wallet - they aren't going to
> be getting any of my money.
Not a problem here.
>
> I also don't believe the garbage about needing a boot disk to get the
> performance to run the game. Wolf3D manages to run real-time 3D graphics
> on a *286* with no problem.
If you had any concept of programming, then you would obviously know that
Wolfenstein 3-D does NOT pull of real-time 3D graphics. Doom does, Wolf3d
doesn't. Go ahead, ask Jay.
Wolfenstein 3-D uses a technique (although implemented differently) that people
have used for years. There was even a game on my Commodore 64 that was almost
up to par with Wolf3d.
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> scroll smoothly, it seems jump more than one pixel at a time. That's why
> I call it jerky.
Yeah...but CyberStrike doesn't. Full 60 fps, completely smooth. I promise.
> Background, of course. It's the only thing that is scrolling. Now, the
> limitation in turning angles is another matter, but no less annoying.
Weren't there more than 8 turning angles. As I recall, I remember seeing at
least 16 in the graphics files.
Josh
Jason Burrell
insist on using a menu program that takes umpteenth K of memory, then
thats YOUR problem. Programs aren't made to coexist with a menu program
that in some cases take 15K memory. As for using a boot disk... That is
no big deal either. Just do what I and a lot of other people I know do..
Have 2 config.sys files. Copy your NORMAL config.sys file to config.old
and make it read only. Then create your config.sys file that simulates
your "boot disk" (something like this):
DEVICE=c:\dos\himem.sys
DEVICE=c:\dos\emm386.sys 1024 RAM
DOS=HIGH,UMB
Then save it to CONFIG.Z66 (for Zone 66) and make CONFIG.Z66 READ ONLY.
When you want to run a program that needs a "boot disk" then copy
CONFIG.Z66 to config.sys. When you want to set your computer back to
normal type COPY CONFIG.OLD CONFIG.SYS
Now isn't that simple? I hope so because thats about as simple as it
gets.
--
Jason_...@fcircus.sat.tx.us
Device Driver Stacker.sys not found. Hit (P) to panic!
--
Any information provided in any note written by this user ID is under
the standard disclaimer. The author is not responsible for negligent use
of ANY information given in said note.
Axel Fischer
>BrEtT pAtErSoN (s107...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>: Yes, I downloaded Zone66 from wuarchive, and I don't care how good a game
>: is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
>: IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
>: but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
>: like a quick game.
>It is necessary to remove your memory managers in order to play this game
>which operates in protected mode. Takes about 2 seconds to bring it up in dos
>edit and then put three letters infront of the memory manager command(s) to
>disable them. How HARD is that?!? You DON'T really have to use a bootdisk!
I had to. I had to use a blank bootdisk. Anything else and Zone66 won't run.
But still this ain't too hard.
The game is nice. Especially the intro. Sounds great on my GUS and looks
good too.
Worth checking out as a GUS demo :-) :-)
-Axel
--
fis...@netmbx.de DoD #0228
chun kwai jay fong
>
>If you had any concept of programming, then you would obviously know that
>Wolfenstein 3-D does NOT pull of real-time 3D graphics. Doom does, Wolf3d
>doesn't. Go ahead, ask Jay.
>
>Wolfenstein 3-D uses a technique (although implemented differently) that people
>have used for years. There was even a game on my Commodore 64 that was almost
>up to par with Wolf3d.
>
Uhhm, just curious. Just what is the "technique"? I for one don't know
it...
Jay
Thomas Wong
>No, thats Renaissance's problem. Pissing-off users is a bad way to run
>a business. If they expect to make money off their games they better
>make them more compatible with what the rest of the world is doing.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
>wie...@rtsg.mot.com
>Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Josh, forget about this Robert guy.
Don't even waste your breath with him.
Look, if he wants professional quailty, he can go and buy commercial
programs. We on the Internet have been blessed with some really good
shareware programs for pennies. Look at Galactix, Wolf3D...etc.
But he fails to realize that unlike commerical programs, these programs
are done as a hobby or what not and is not meant to make big bucks. The
authors are sharing their work with us and is not looking at getting a
big return. Donations IF you want to. That's why they are shareware.
And FREE if you don't want to pay.
We have already read tons of other replies and nobody holds his
attitutde. And as one of the past reply mentioned, this guy wants the
world, for free, yet he wants perfection, commercial product quality.
Yet he doesn't realize these sharewares are not written by programmers
working full time to grind out a commercial product. I don't think he
knows how blessed we are here on Internet or others with BBS access to
these sharewares. He sounds like he's new the net. So if he wants
commerical quality, he can buy commercial software, and yet still have
to use a custom config.sys/autoexec.bat and reboot cause games nowadays
needs gobs of memory. Just like zone66. He must be new to PC games too.
Thomas.
Jason O'Rourke
they won't do much for me. I, like many people, set the boot
order to C:, A: to speed up the boot process. The floppy drive
is completely ignored.
I have a config that seems to work pretty damn well for falcon
xwing links, aces, etc. (8 meg system though)
Looks like I'll need to look for a bootdisk program..
Does this thing run under OS/2s dos?
Jason
Jason O'Rourke
>
>And how many games has Id written? As much as I've liked all Id's games,
>I bet their first didn't even come close to Zone 66.
>
What kind of comparison would this be? I believe commander keen was
their first game...and that was 4 years ago (or more?) It was ega
as most systems still were, and it was pc sound only, as most systems
were. It is hardly fair to compare these games given the difference
in technology at the time.
Jason O'Rourke
Center for EUV Astrophysics
Jason O'Rourke
>Look, if he wants professional quailty, he can go and buy commercial
>programs. We on the Internet have been blessed with some really good
>shareware programs for pennies. Look at Galactix, Wolf3D...etc.
>But he fails to realize that unlike commerical programs, these programs
>are done as a hobby or what not and is not meant to make big bucks. The
>authors are sharing their work with us and is not looking at getting a
>big return. Donations IF you want to. That's why they are shareware.
>And FREE if you don't want to pay.
What the F*** are you talking about? I'm surprised no one else has
jumped on your ass for this B.S. You seem to have shareware and
freeware confused...in freeware, payment is voluntary and welcome.
In shareware, you have the right to play for 30 (sometimes 15) days,
and then you are to pay, or to remove.
The people at Id, among others, are quite serious. Their games
are certainly professional...many would say they are on the
cutting edge for their type of games. They use the shareware engine
of distribution because it has less overhead. The people at
Epic are equally serious, and do not consider their games the
result of a hobby.
Steve Derby
>
For what it's worth, Zone 66 is very smooth on my 386sx/16 as well - I'm
impressed with the technology of the game (but the again, it doesn't take
to much to impress me). On the other hand, I think the overall game play
makes the game essentially "just another shareware game." Epic Megagames has
be long known for prettiness, but not for development
(This will probably spark comments - comments to this newsgroup, flames
to sde...@garnet.berkeley.edu)
.
Steve Derby
>> Yes, I downloaded Zone66 from wuarchive, and I don't care how good a game
>> is, I am not going to bother using a boot disk just to play the damn thing.
>> IMHO, if I can't use it from my menu program then it can go. Call me lazy,
>> but you don't go to all the bother of using a boot disk if you just feel
>> like a quick game.
>> good game, the boot disk is necessary, otherwise settle for a not so good
>> game without the boot disk.
>> I say that these programmers should learn to program properly, and that
>> is is possible to do such a game in the normal environment. I mean,
>> whoopee about a tiny sprite jet with a scrolling background.
>
>I will...
>
>Too bad you are going to miss out on upcoming Renaissance games. As the
>protected mode system gets better and better (and doesn't use that damn HIMEM)
>the games will get better and better. Ah, well. That's your problem.
>
>Josh
>
And this is a good thing? I bitched for months about Origin's proprietary
memory manager for Ultima 7 (which, as most folks know, resulted in a game
which ran far too slow for essentially any 386 machine) - I'll bitch for
equally long about Epic Megagames' forbidding anything in memory besides
their program. (I forsee a time when we'll have to have a separate boot
disk for each and every program we run!)
This actually brings up another point (which I think is probably the
most important point in games these days): Which is more important -
graphics and sound or game play? Juding from 1) the types of games we're
seeing these days, and 2) the types of games which get the most "airtime"
in forums like these (I don't spend too much time in this forum, but do
pay attention to similar ones in CIS and Fido) it seems that folks are more
interested in the "bells and whistles" aspect and "damn the game!"
I think this is a very unfortunate development.
(Has it actually been so long since the no-bells-and-whistles
"Infocom" type games that folks can actually be called the Infocom
generation??)
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> memory manager for Ultima 7 (which, as most folks know, resulted in a game
> which ran far too slow for essentially any 386 machine) - I'll bitch for
It WAS their blasted memory manager...AND their programming.
> equally long about Epic Megagames' forbidding anything in memory besides
> their program. (I forsee a time when we'll have to have a separate boot
> disk for each and every program we run!)
If all of these memory management utilities developed by Microsoft and others
were written for SPEED and NOT WINDOWS, then we wouldn't have to do things like
this.
> This actually brings up another point (which I think is probably the
> most important point in games these days): Which is more important -
> graphics and sound or game play? Juding from 1) the types of games we're
> seeing these days, and 2) the types of games which get the most "airtime"
> in forums like these (I don't spend too much time in this forum, but do
> pay attention to similar ones in CIS and Fido) it seems that folks are more
> interested in the "bells and whistles" aspect and "damn the game!"
> I think this is a very unfortunate development.
I agree. I still have to go back to my Commodore 64 to play some old games.
That's why CyberStrike is going to be a mixture of some of those OLD
games...Smash TV, Alien Syndrome, and Parallax.
Josh
BRIAN KEITH PIPA
Great game, isn't it?
Here's what I do-
Use the ship with a payload of 80.
get 6 mega-bombs and 20 missiles.
Clear out the defenses near your base with Mega-bombs.
Launch a missile whenever you see a yellow dot near you on radar.
Drop all your mega-bombs on/near the white dots.
When you are out of bombs, go to escape or stealth mode and return
to base for more ammo. Keep doing this until there are no more defenses. ;)
Changing home bases as necessary of course.
Is there a save-game feature? If so, I couldn't figure out how to use it,
and if not, it is badly needed! I played for an hour or so and only had
about half the islands cleared!
PS I tried to send mail to ro...@cobrat.austin.ibm.com
but it bounced.
Brian
--
| Brian Pipa |
| bkp...@eos.ncsu.edu |
| NCSU - Raleigh, NC USA |
Laarhoven P
don't like the bad quality of the soundblaster soundeffects. The sound quality
of the Soundblaster pro and GUS are normally quite comparable. In this case
the GUS gets some great samples and the soundblaster gets some primitive
'cracking' noises. I wish I could get rid of the music and get better sound
effects. If you listen to the sounds galactix produces, zone66 sounds puny.
All in all it's not a bad game. Although it's hardly the programming that makes
it such a good game. I think it's the artist, who did the graphics, who should
get al the congratulations.
Patrick
------------------------------------------------------------------
no sig today, the milkman ran away.
Mark Harrison
>In article <1993Mar18....@lclark.edu> harr...@lclark.edu (Mark Harrison) writes:
>>
>>And how many games has Id written? As much as I've liked all Id's games,
>>I bet their first didn't even come close to Zone 66.
>>
>What kind of comparison would this be?
Not a very good one. But the original article was comparing Wolf to Zone
66. I was just pointing out that it's not fair to compare Zone 66 to
Wolf. Id has a lot more experience making games.
>I believe commander keen was
>their first game...and that was 4 years ago (or more?)
No. Unless I misunderstood, Id wrote games before Keen for Softdisk.
> It was ega
>as most systems still were, and it was pc sound only, as most systems
>were. It is hardly fair to compare these games given the difference
>in technology at the time.
I agree. Nor is it fair to take someones first game and expect the same
quality you can get from people who have been making games for a lot
longer. As a first effort, I think they did a fine job. They know it's
not going to be the run-away smash hit of the year. But what they need is
constructive critism and not "Your game sucks." AND that's what they are
asking for. When they've got a few more games under their belts, then we
can start comparing their work to someones like Id.
--
=============================================================================
Mark Harrison | "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
harr...@sun.lclark.edu | Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
-- Me | -- Rush
Robert Wiegand
[stuff deleted]
>>No, thats Renaissance's problem. Pissing-off users is a bad way to run
>>a business. If they expect to make money off their games they better
>>make them more compatible with what the rest of the world is doing.
>No that's your problem. Everyone else is coping with it. And as far as
>what the rest of the world is doing, Zone 66 isn't the first to require a
>boot disk.
>Can't you get it through your head that this is their first game? Josh
>(who posted up above) is in high school!!! While I may not care for that
>type of game, I was damn impressed with it. Hell of a lot better than I
>could do and I'm a professional programmer (not games.) If you don't like
>the game, fine. But when someone puts something out as shareware, where
>do you get off ripping them apart. You didn't pay a penny for it, yet you
>whine like you paid $500.
I'm not "ripping them apart", I'm pointing out the reality of the situation.
If they keep using a boot disk to run their games they *will lose sales*.
That's reality, and pretending it isn't so doesn't help them.
Selling programs is a buiness, and in any business if you want to make
money you have to do what the customer wants. If no one points out
the problems how will they know what to fix? Yes the program is a very
good first effort, but improvement is always possible. If they don't
continue to improve their games people will use games from someone else.
Mark Harrison
>
>>No that's your problem. Everyone else is coping with it. And as far as
>>what the rest of the world is doing, Zone 66 isn't the first to require a
>>boot disk.
>
>If they keep using a boot disk to run their games they *will lose sales*.
>That's reality, and pretending it isn't so doesn't help them.
But I don't think asking someone to do something as simple as rebooting
their computer with a clean boot disk will cause them to lose sales. I'm
no marketing master, but the general opinion around here is "big deal."
Most people really DON'T mind. I stick the disk in drive A, press three
buttons, and off I go.
>Selling programs is a buiness, and in any business if you want to make
>money you have to do what the customer wants.
I'm sure they want to make money. But they are also a group of young guys
just starting out with making games. And probably having a lot of fun to
boot. I don't really see them as Wall Street types trying to maximize
profits.
>If no one points out
>the problems how will they know what to fix?
What problem does "Zone66 can go stuff itself" address? Pointing out
problems is great. It will help them in the future. Don't like the boot
disk? Fine. Let them know. But the original article was a little
harsh. For example, somewhere along the line it was pointed out (in so
many words) that Id could have done it better. Or a good programmer could
have done it without needing a boot disk.
>Yes the program is a very
>good first effort, but improvement is always possible. If they don't
>continue to improve their games people will use games from someone else.
That's true. Good program for a first effort, but they will need to work
on some stuff. And I agree that it would be nice to be able to run it
without rebooting. I've only played it once myself. Loved the music (I
have a GUS), played with it a little, and went on to something else.
It should be interesting to see what's in store from them. (Of course I'm
still wishing Id would do another Keen series. :-)
Ron Asbestos Dippold
commercial as the "commercial" stuff you see on the store shelves. It
simply uses a different method of distribution. Id is every bit as
commercial as Origin, et al, they are simply using a different (and
brilliant, gotta give Apogee the credit it's due here) way to spread
their games.
You get to try before you buy, but if you like the program, keep the
program, use the program, you are legally obligated to pay the
shareware fee. There is a grey area, especially with games, as to
when you are no longer evaluating the game and are now playing the
game and should pay - that's your call. But shareware is _not_
payment optional if you decide to use it.
--
Cthulhu isn't really his name, he just has a speech impediment.
Jason Burrell
simpler (unless you don't know how to use DOS that overly well) to just
have 3 or 4 config.sys files. Simple isn't it? I'm running Falcon 3.0,
Mantis and a bunch of others like that because I have a program called
DOUBLE DENSITY (disk doubler) on my system. It parks in memory and eats
46.6k so simple. You remove the driver, load the program on the
unstacked drive and have a seperate config.sys file. Not that hard.
Still, why a boot disk when you can do that?
Jason Burrell
command before rebooting...
Pete Rizzuto
it, I can't get the intro back. Anybody else have this problem? When I
select Play Game, I get the initial text screens with the story, then it goes
to the 'choose ship' screen, then right into the game. What happened to
the nice cartoon intro?
Thanks...
Ross Ridge
> memory manager for Ultima 7 (which, as most folks know, resulted in a game
> which ran far too slow for essentially any 386 machine) - I'll bitch for
sl...@cc.usu.edu writes:
> It WAS their blasted memory manager...AND their programming.
Man this takes the cake, at least their extender works with XMS.
You guys couldn't even manage that simple feat.
Ross Ridge
Timothy Lee Russell
>From: Jason_...@fcircus.sat.tx.us (Jason Burrell)
>Subject: Re: Zone66 can go stuff itself.
>Date: 17 Mar 93 19:40:52 CST