KEEN WATCH: The U is Toast
*Kenneth Steele
I just received a flyer from Apogee today for the Keen
series. The flyer contained a couple of newsworthy
points.
1) Concerning the original 6 Keens, they have apparently
been redone: "All six games contain completely
redesigned graphics and new locations"
2) A new 3 episode followup to "Aliens Ate My Babysitter"
is due out, entitled "The Universe is Toast." No release
date is mentioned.
Ken Steele stee...@conrad.appstate.edu
Appalachian State University stee...@appstate.bitnet
Mark Harrison
>
>I just received a flyer from Apogee today for the Keen
>series. The flyer contained a couple of newsworthy
>points.
>
>1) Concerning the original 6 Keens, they have apparently
> been redone: "All six games contain completely
> redesigned graphics and new locations"
>
>
>2) A new 3 episode followup to "Aliens Ate My Babysitter"
> is due out, entitled "The Universe is Toast." No release
> date is mentioned.
All right. I would like to get Jay in on this discussion. Here is some
e-mail I got from him just last week. No explainations needed!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jwi...@holonet.net (Jay Wilbur)
Subject: Re: Commander Keen
> Jay, I just wanted to say that Commander Keen remains my favorite games
> off all time. (Well, I don't play many games) Are you guys planning any
> future CK's? Is Billy still going to go after Mortimer?
Right now Billy is in suspended animation. Most of our time is going to
the new 3-d tech we are working on. As of this letter there is no plans
to wake Billy up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
=============================================================================
Mark Harrison | "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
harr...@sun.lclark.edu | Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
-- Me | -- Rush
Jay Wilbur
:
: I just received a flyer from Apogee today for the Keen
: series. The flyer contained a couple of newsworthy
: points.
:
: 1) Concerning the original 6 Keens, they have apparently
: been redone: "All six games contain completely
: redesigned graphics and new locations"
:
:
: 2) A new 3 episode followup to "Aliens Ate My Babysitter"
: is due out, entitled "The Universe is Toast." No release
: date is mentioned.
I hate to bum you out Ken, but the flyer is wrong. Actually it would be
better to say that our devlopment direction has changed since th time that
flyer was printed.
About 3 or 4 months ago we did intend to follow-up with another Keen
series. We had every intention of doing one more triliogy to round out
Billy's exploits. Then we looked at the sales figures for Keen 4-6 and
the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
further develop the 3d tech at that point.
The official word on the next Keen game: Don't hold your breath.
As for the first item in the list...I have no idea what Apogee is talking
about. In fact I can't wait to ask them what the hell they are talking
about. I can't remember going back to the old Keens to do any redesign
work on the graphics or game play.
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@orac.holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
| Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Mark Scott
|> >STEE...@APPSTATE.EDU (*Kenneth Steele) writes:
|> >: I just received a flyer from Apogee today for the Keen
|> >: series. The flyer contained a couple of newsworthy
|> >: points.
|> >:
|> >: 1) Concerning the original 6 Keens, they have apparently
|> >: been redone: "All six games contain completely
|> >: redesigned graphics and new locations"
|>
|> >the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
|> >further develop the 3d tech at that point.
|>
|> >The official word on the next Keen game: Don't hold your breath.
I'm sorry to hear that. I love Keen 4 & the 6-demo, but the first 3 are
definitely not on the same par. I was even think of calling Apogee to see if
they'd let me trade Keens 1-3 back in on the full Keen 6 or something.
Since the apparent success of Wolf3D, (which I am personally repulsed by)
I'd like to see Commander Keen in a 3D series. To me, that would be the
ultimate Id game! How about it Jay? Has anyone already suggested this?
thanks
_________________________________________________________________________
Mark Scott |
Motorola Computer Group | "Where there is no vision,
Urbana Design Center | the people perish."
#include <std/disclaimer.h> | Proverbs 29:18
Bob Weissman
thing since Super Mario 3. Wolf3d had interesting graphics, but
was a mindless game.
Guess I'll send some money after all...
msc...@charm.urbana.mcd.mot.com (Mark Scott) writes:
-|> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
-|> >Billy's exploits. Then we looked at the sales figures for Keen 4-6 and
-|> >the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
-|> >further develop the 3d tech at that point.
-|>
-|> >The official word on the next Keen game: Don't hold your breath.
-
-I'm sorry to hear that. I love Keen 4 & the 6-demo, but the first 3 are
-definitely not on the same par. I was even think of calling Apogee to see if
-they'd let me trade Keens 1-3 back in on the full Keen 6 or something.
-
-Since the apparent success of Wolf3D, (which I am personally repulsed by)
-I'd like to see Commander Keen in a 3D series. To me, that would be the
-ultimate Id game! How about it Jay? Has anyone already suggested this?
--
-- Bob Weissman
-- Internet: r...@rational.com
-- UUCP: uunet!igor!rw
--
Jay Wilbur
: |> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: |> >STEE...@APPSTATE.EDU (*Kenneth Steele) writes:
: |> >: I just received a flyer from Apogee today for the Keen
: |> >: series. The flyer contained a couple of newsworthy
: |> >: points.
: |> >:
: |> >: 1) Concerning the original 6 Keens, they have apparently
: |> >: been redone: "All six games contain completely
: |> >: redesigned graphics and new locations"
: |>
: |> >Billy's exploits. Then we looked at the sales figures for Keen 4-6 and
: |> >the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
: |> >further develop the 3d tech at that point.
: |>
: |> >The official word on the next Keen game: Don't hold your breath.
: --
:
: I'm sorry to hear that. I love Keen 4 & the 6-demo, but the first 3 are
: definitely not on the same par. I was even think of calling Apogee to see if
: they'd let me trade Keens 1-3 back in on the full Keen 6 or something.
:
: Since the apparent success of Wolf3D, (which I am personally repulsed by)
: I'd like to see Commander Keen in a 3D series. To me, that would be the
: ultimate Id game! How about it Jay? Has anyone already suggested this?
Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
If your repulsion for Wolf3D comes from all the violence then you may not
even want to look at the name for our next game. The working title is
DOOM and its story will lean towards the darker side of sci. fi./fantasy.
Damien P. Neil
In a previous article, jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) says:
>Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
>but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
>pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
Any word you can give us on when it's coming out? I've been wanting to see
a game with an engine like Wolf3D, but with more plot. (Other than UU,
which I have.)
--
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
| Damien Neil | dp...@po.cwru.edu | Case Western Reserve University |
+-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
Chuck 'Big Brain, No Thoughts' McMath
Wilbur) wrote:
>
>
> If your repulsion for Wolf3D comes from all the violence then you may not
> even want to look at the name for our next game. The working title is
> DOOM and its story will lean towards the darker side of sci. fi./fantasy.
>
>
> --
> /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
> | Jay Wilbur | jwi...@orac.holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
> | Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
> \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
My only question is: when?
chuck
|- chuck mcmath - mcm...@csb1.nlm.nih.gov - MSD, Inc. ------------|
|- National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health --|
|- Bethesda, MD 20894 - Volunteers to be next baseball commish -- |
|- "Hey batter, hey batter, hey batter, swing" - Anon. -----------|
brian david gilbert
>Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
>but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
>pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
>
>If your repulsion for Wolf3D comes from all the violence then you may not
>even want to look at the name for our next game. The working title is
>DOOM and its story will lean towards the darker side of sci. fi./fantasy.
Jay, What are the chances of you guys releasing a demo version or
do you plan to release Doom like you did with Wolf3D. I like the
idea of being to try out a game before buying it.
Brian
--
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
* Email: gil...@cs.colostate.edu | Yes my life is better left to chance *
* Computer Info Processing Spec. | I could have missed the pain but I'd *
* Morgan Lib. Colo. State Univer. | of had to miss the dance. Garth Brooks*
Jay Wilbur
:
:
: >Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
: >but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
: >pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
:
: Any word you can give us on when it's coming out? I've been wanting to see
: a game with an engine like Wolf3D, but with more plot. (Other than UU,
: which I have.)
Official DOOM release date: When it's done! :)
Sorry, but telling the world and missing the release date for WOLF3D got
us into a lot of hot water with the users. In fact we ended up with some
who now hate us. To avoid that we will NEVER announce a release date again.
Jay Wilbur
: In article <Bvq11...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: >Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
: >but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
: >pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
: >
: >If your repulsion for Wolf3D comes from all the violence then you may not
: >even want to look at the name for our next game. The working title is
: >DOOM and its story will lean towards the darker side of sci. fi./fantasy.
:
: Jay, What are the chances of you guys releasing a demo version or
: do you plan to release Doom like you did with Wolf3D. I like the
: idea of being to try out a game before buying it.
We hope to have a Tech. demo out by Comdex (mid to late Nov.). Just a
little something to whet your whistle. Of course the release version will go
the same route as Wolf3d.
ngsi...@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu
> In article <Bvq11...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
>>Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
>>but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
>>pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
WOLF 3d makes me hurl everytime I play it. I tell all of my friends to avoid
it. It, IMHO, is the worst game on the market. It gives me headaches because
of the movement. WOLF 1-6 are all the exactly the same thing and boring.
Keen is cute, but he is very entertaining. And parents don't have to monitor
the computer every 5 seconds. Keen 1-3 is great challenge, and Keen 4-6 (plus
Dreams) is very different, interesting change in the same entertainment. Keen
always changes: Weapons, Food/Candy, Plots, and Graphics. The help menus are
even better than Wolf3d as well as it has PADDLE WAR!!
And who would want to buy a 3D Keen anyway? It takes it away from the
"classic" style of video games. (Games that last for years...i.e., PAC-MAN)
BUY KEEN! DOWN WITH WOLF3D!
(If we can't be responsible mature adults to put with flames, then UseNet must
die. Otherwise, it's business as usual.)
--
. _ . _____________
|\_|/__/| / \
/ / \/ \ \ / Happy! Happy! \
/__|O||O|__ \ \ Joy! Joy! /
|/_ \_/\_/ _\ | \ ___________/
| | (____) | || |/
\/\___/\__/ // _/
(_/ ||
| ||\ Norman Sippel
\ //_/ alias Norman "Muddy" Stimpy
\______//
__|| __|| Email: ngsi...@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu
(____(____) ngsi...@komodo.ham.muohio.edu
Jay Wilbur
: In article <Oct07.175...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, gil...@CS.ColoState.EDU (brian david gilbert) writes:
: > In article <Bvq11...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: >>Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
: >>but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
: >>pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
:
: WOLF 3d makes me hurl everytime I play it. I tell all of my friends to avoid
: it. It, IMHO, is the worst game on the market. It gives me headaches because
: of the movement. WOLF 1-6 are all the exactly the same thing and boring.
Some people can deal with it and some cannot. It's a good thing that most
people can deal with it. As for telling everyone to avoid it because your
physical make-up cannot deal with the fast moving images...thanks.
: Keen is cute, but he is very entertaining. And parents don't have to monitor
: the computer every 5 seconds. Keen 1-3 is great challenge, and Keen 4-6 (plus
: Dreams) is very different, interesting change in the same entertainment. Keen
: always changes: Weapons, Food/Candy, Plots, and Graphics. The help menus are
: even better than Wolf3d as well as it has PADDLE WAR!!
I agree...Keen is entertaining. It's just not much fun to develop
anymore.
: And who would want to buy a 3D Keen anyway? It takes it away from the
: "classic" style of video games. (Games that last for years...i.e., PAC-MAN)
Agreed.
: BUY KEEN! DOWN WITH WOLF3D!
Jeeze...if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen...don't tell
everyone the house isn't built right.
Ben Rudiak-Gould
>Then we looked at the sales figures for Keen 4-6 and
>the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
>further develop the 3d tech at that point.
This is my problem with Wolf3d. It has apparently been a runaway success
despite being an astoundingly bad game. People seem to love it, though,
and it's almost always for one (or more) of these reasons:
1. "Wow! What a fantastic game! The graphics are amazing! Id is the
greatest!" This type is usually almost fanatical about Wolf3d, and has
nothing but praise for it--the operative words being "nothing but." I
was one of this type. Then I realized how the graphics were done.
Soon after, I lost interest in the game, because I realized also that I
had been deluding myself with the idea that unexplainably good
graphics == good game. The Wolf3d algorithm is quite simple, fast, and
easy to implement. It is not "revolutionary," and it has been used in
other (earlier) games. Read rec.games.programmer if you want to know
the specifics. I will not be impressed again with Id's 3D graphics
until they release a game with graphics of Ultima Underworld caliber
(and then, probably, only until I find out how UW was done).
2. "Shooting Nazis is fun and it's a great way to relieve stress."
This type really makes me wonder why companies like Origin bother to put
such nonessentials as puzzles, a plot, variety, etc. in their games when
all that the game-players really want is a picture of a Nazi that spurts
blood when you press a button.
3. "The game is exciting because you never know what is around the next
corner or creeping up behind you." I'm a bit surprised that people say
this, because after you've completed the game about two times, you do
know what's around the next corner, of course. Also, I may be missing
something, but I downloaded Damian Polanski's level and yawned. Were
the narrow corridors supposed to induce claustrophobia or something?
At least the enemy in "Alien" was semi-intelligent.
There--I think those three cover all the bases. Comments/flames are welcome.
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@orac.holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
| Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
--
Ben Rudiak-Gould
be...@ocf.berkeley.edu
"We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone."
ngsi...@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu
> :
> : >Our next game WILL be the ultimate Id game (until the one after that:),
> : >but it won't be Keen. Keen would be so hard to do in 3D with all the
> : >pogoing going on. Besides, all that "cute" bores us to tears.
Since you guys want violence and ugliness, why don't you sell Keen to someone
else who'll make more games? I'm sure other companies would be glad to take
him off your hands.
BTW, I would like to compliment ID on Keen Dreams. It was the best Keen of
all, and it was a nice change of pace to get away from Pogo/GunFire. My only
wish for it was that Keen could grab sides like in Keen 4-6. Good Job!
One question: Will Major Stryker ever be released? I've been waiting well over
a year since I first heard about it! I want to save Keen!
Send all flames, if you need to be childish, to me.
P.S. WOLF3D bores me to tears. Keen keeps me going!
Ron Dippold
>jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
>>Then we looked at the sales figures for Keen 4-6 and
>>the sales figures for Wolf3d and and said "Billy who?" We decided to
>>further develop the 3d tech at that point.
>This is my problem with Wolf3d. It has apparently been a runaway success
>despite being an astoundingly bad game. People seem to love it, though,
>and it's almost always for one (or more) of these reasons:
Gosh, you know, after your brilliant expose, I and the thousands of
others who have enjoyed Wolf 3D have suddenly seen the error of our
ways. We are just as incapable of comprehending the difference
between "It's a bad game" and "I don't like it" as you are.
Amazingly enough, when the graphics algorithm used in Wolf 3D was
first posted, it didn't spoil the enjoyment one whit. See, although
the algorithm is fairly simple, there's a difference between knowing
it, implementing it, and implementing it in an enjoyable game. Why,
just look at at _all_ the games using similar or similar appearing
high-speed 3D technology. Ummm. Gee, Wolf 3D, possibly Ultima
Underworld (more complex, but slower), Corporation (ditto), and for
those of us who remember it, Wayout.
You don't like the game, you don't like it. Fine. But "bad game" is
just your snobbery.
I'm not toally unsympathetic, however. Being at Berkeley, you should
have options not open to the rest of us. Perhaps you could depress
Wolf 3D sales by bringing insensitivity charges against anyone who
dared to play it.
--
The flush toilet is the basis of Western civilization. -- Alan Coult
Richard Wyckoff
>
> This is my problem with Wolf3d. It has apparently been a runaway success
> despite being an astoundingly bad game.
Calling Wolf3D "an astoundingly bad game" may be a bit of an
overstatement. But then, some people seem to think the Might and Magic series
breaks new ground...
Wolf3D is an arcade game, pure and simple, and it does what it's
supposed to do well. Screen updates are smooth and fast, gameplay is
challenging the first time through, and not too difficult to get a hold on.
Granted, after you've played the first episode, the next 5 may seem more than a
bit repetitious (though the battle with Hitler was incredibly difficult and
required some actual strategy (in an arcade game? *GASP*).
The reason Wolf3D was received so well and still is is that it's
basically the first PC arcade game that approaches arcade quality. Its major
failing is that of all Apogee games I've seen so far: not enough power-ups
(and this may seem like an incredibly specific complaint, but that to me is
what really sets Apogee games apart from anything I've seen on game machines.)
Some people complain about the violence. I personally have no problem
separating fantasy from reality, and I can play a round of Wolf3D without
feeling the need afterwards to throw on my Birkenstocks and tie-dyes and
protest animal mutilations. I have a friend who is a pacifist who claims that
playing games like this allow him an outlet for his violent feelings (feelings
he says we all have).
I loved the Keen series, too, and I hope that Id will eventually write
another sequel (hopefully with VGA, digisound and a slew of power-ups), but
Wolf3D to me is the closest I can get to the Terminator 2 arcade game...
Keep up the good work, Jay and Co.!
--
**Richard Wyckoff**RWYC...@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU**(.sig 6.1 - dissolves in H20)**
////
Deconstruct this, academic scum!
-Rockpool Magazine
////
Jay Wilbur
and Keen is not. People, by the thousnads, have cast their vote of approval
for the 3d game play and the violent nature of the game.
As a groupwith limited resources we cannot please all the people all the
time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
Hence, more 3d, dark games.
--
ngsi...@miavx2.ham.muohio.edu
> Here it is plain and simple. Wolf3D is selling like you wouldn't believe
> and Keen is not. People, by the thousnads, have cast their vote of approval
> for the 3d game play and the violent nature of the game.
>
> As a groupwith limited resources we cannot please all the people all the
> time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
> Hence, more 3d, dark games.
Give Keen more hype and keep making new ones and you'll sell.
There are too many dark games on the market. If I see one more from Id, just
because everyone else is doing it, then I'll quit playing Id games.
BTW: Real 3d uses funky glasses and a movie screen! :)
If you guys don't want Keen, sell him off!
John W. Kale
In a previous article, jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) says:
>Here it is plain and simple. Wolf3D is selling like you wouldn't believe
>and Keen is not. People, by the thousnads, have cast their vote of approval
>for the 3d game play and the violent nature of the game.
>
>As a groupwith limited resources we cannot please all the people all the
>time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
>Hence, more 3d, dark games.
Does this mean that a price reduction for the Keen series
is a possibility? Last I heard, Keen cost $90 for the six part
series, while Wolfenstien was $60 or so. Granted, the Keen
stuff comes to $15 each but I still find it painful to think
of spending ninety bucks at one crack on video games. Dropping
the price on Keen oughta prop up its sales...
--
Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun | John Kale ''''
Just to see where the bullets come from! | jw...@po.cwru.edu -o-o
-Screaming Blue Messiahs | ---UUU---U--UUU--
--->SUSPICION BREEDS CONFIDENCE - Dept. of Records' Motto, "Brazil"<---
Ben Rudiak-Gould
> Calling Wolf3D "an astoundingly bad game" may be a bit of an
>overstatement.
Yeah, but I'd used up all the other good adjectives in the rest of the
article. .-, <=== 1/2 :-)
In any case, looking back, it was far too inflammatory a choice. I didn't
mean it quite that strongly, and I should have known better.
> (though the battle with Hitler was incredibly difficult and
>required some actual strategy (in an arcade game? *GASP*).
Using the level editor, I tried to make some levels which required strategy
to win, but eventually gave up. BLATANT ADVERTISEMENT (for a free product):
My brother Nathaniel did a pretty good job, though. I'll try to upload his
levels to ccu.umanitoba.ca sometime soon.
> The reason Wolf3D was received so well and still is is that it's
>basically the first PC arcade game that approaches arcade quality.
I would argue that "arcade quality" is an oxymoron, but then, you
probably guessed that much about me from my last post.
>Its major
>failing is that of all Apogee games I've seen so far: not enough power-ups
Fascinating. I never really thought about that before.
> Some people complain about the violence. I personally have no problem
>separating fantasy from reality,
Of course. What I was talking about in my last article was the fact that
some people seem to like the game _because_ of the violence. Although, the
following may be a good reason for this...
> I have a friend who is a pacifist who claims that
>playing games like this allow him an outlet for his violent feelings (feelings
>he says we all have).
Especially the Wolf3d designers. :-)
> I loved the Keen series, too, and I hope that Id will eventually write
>another sequel (hopefully with VGA, digisound and a slew of power-ups)
Didn't you hear? They're not going to do another Keen. Why, you ask?
a) Wolf3d sold much better than Keen, and they want to make lots of money.
b) They don't like Keen, because he's too "cute." (!!!)
I think I'm going to have to endure another bout of disillusionment.
It happens to the best ... I mourn your passing, Online Systems ...
>**Richard Wyckoff**RWYC...@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU**(.sig 6.1 - dissolves in H20)**
--
Ben Rudiak-Gould
be...@ocf.berkeley.edu
Robert W. Igo
Hahaha! NOT! (w.. Richard Wyc...@eagle.we (2074)
(everything deleted)
I agree! The only complaint I'd have is the attempt at German grammar
and pronunciation. Post to the net if you need help next time, guys,
okay? I'm sure some speaker of German with a SBPro (like myself :} )
would be willing to help you out if you do another series of
Wolfenstein's later on.
> --
> **Richard Wyckoff**RWYC...@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU**(.sig 6.1 - dissolves in H20)**
> ////
> Deconstruct this, academic scum!
> -Rockpool Magazine
> ////
[******************************** Bob Igo ********************************]
Witty and universally-true .sig file under construction.
[************************** ri...@andrew.cmu.edu *************************]
Brian Nelson
[stuff about wolf3d bein' a terrible game deleted]
>it one bit. I'm sorry to hear that midless, gross graphics are "in",
>and cute and cleaver is "out".
^^^^^^^
Kinda strange, that this guy doesn't like senseless violence, yet his
subconscious forced his fingers to type a word like "cleaver"...
Hmmmm....
Brian Nelson
b...@po.cwru.edu
Kevin Kramer
In article <1992Oct13.1...@unvax.union.edu>, mcwh...@unvax.union.edu (Jim Mcwhirter) writes:
> rdip...@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
> --- text deleted ---
>
> >You don't like the game, you don't like it. Fine. But "bad game" is
> >just your snobbery.
>
> >I'm not toally unsympathetic, however. Being at Berkeley, you should
> >have options not open to the rest of us. Perhaps you could depress
> >Wolf 3D sales by bringing insensitivity charges against anyone who
> >dared to play it.
> >--
> >The flush toilet is the basis of Western civilization. -- Alan Coult
>
> which does not make it snobbery. It is also my opinion, so let me put
> in my two cents worth. My 9 year old son and I were big Keen fans, and
> when Wolf3D came out, we initially were, like everyone, captivated by
> the graphics. But even my son (in spite of television cartoon
> programming) got both bored and grossed out after a while. It is (my
> opinion) NOT a challenging game, once you have played it once. And
> the mindless slaughter is just that. After about two weeks, we
> decided wasn't worth the disk space and removed it. I haven't missed
> it one bit. I'm sorry to hear that midless, gross graphics are "in",
> and cute and cleaver is "out".
>
>
I have to agree, I never understood what all the hype was about. I thought
it was one of the most boring games I have ever played, there was absolutly
nothing to it. I deleted it after about I played it a couple of times, it just
couldn't hold my interest. PLEASE don't take my comments personally it is
just my opinion.
Kevin
Ron Dippold
>I have to agree, I never understood what all the hype was about. I thought
>it was one of the most boring games I have ever played, there was absolutly
>nothing to it. I deleted it after about I played it a couple of times, it just
>couldn't hold my interest. PLEASE don't take my comments personally it is
>just my opinion.
Well, all you're doing is saying you don't like the game. No problem
there, it's not your cup of tea. The original poster was upset that
Wolf 3D was selling so well because it is "such a bad game." He
didn't get the difference between "I don't like this game" and "This
is a bad game."
--
Never trust a man unless you've got his pecker in your pocket. -- LBJ
David Reeve Sward
The U is Toast by Brian Nel...@po.CWRU.Edu
> subconscious forced his fingers to type a word like "cleaver"...
>
> Hmmmm....
Is that you, Wally?
Jay Wilbur
: In article <Bw48w...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: >
: >Official statement about Keen:
: >
: >Right now Billy Blaze, A.K.A. Commander Keen, is in suspended animation.
: >We (Id) would like to explore other game ideas for a while. This doesn't
: >mean that there will never be another Keen series. It just means that we
: >don't have one planned right now.
:
: Sorry to hear it Jay. But I understand you people have to eat somehow. I
: would just like to officially say that I hope a new series isn't far away.
:
: Now for something completly different. Are you guys planing on supporting
: the new Gravis Ultrasound?
We will be looking into all the different sound cards for our next game.
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
Mark Scott
Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
to blow holes in Nazi's chest & watch the blood spurt out? Will the game after
the next one get into decapitations & mutilations? Where is this leading? If
the moral aspects don't get you down, maybe the legal aspects could. Suppose
2 years from now, you guys get sued because little 10 year old Johnny
took a shotgun & toasted his Dad to see if the blood would spurt out "just
like on Wolf3D"? Sound silly? It could happen. I guess the good news is that
you'll have plenty of money to pay the legal fees if it happens.
Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
game companies have the courage to make.
(these are my personal opinions, of course)
Chris Smith
>In article <Bw0q...@iat.holonet.net>, jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
>|> As a groupwith limited resources we cannot please all the people all the
>|> time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
>Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
>quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
>
I personally do not think that this is a fair reply. Like it or not All
game designers are out to make money. I think it has something to do with
surviving. :-) . Also, I highly doubt Wolf was written in a couple of hours,
therefore to say all he wants to do is get rich quick also isnt a fair
assessment. I bet there are faster ways to make money.
>Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
>(these are my personal opinions, of course)
I dont remember anyone saying Wolf was the best game in the world granted,
but I think most agree that Wolf was well done, and a credit to the creators.
As to your other responses, I agree that there is an awful lot of violence
in the world, and I think our culture fuels this violence, But again I dont
think its fair to attack a small group of people. While Wolf isnt the most
wholesome game in the world, I bet "little johnny" would be more affect by
the Teminator of some the more violent rock groups than a video game.
Of course just my opinion as well.
-Chris
--
*********************************************************************************Chris Smith | ism...@mn.ecn.purdue.edu *
*Purdue University | ism...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu *
*School of Mechanical Engineering | fsis...@sioux.lerc.nasa.gov *
********************************************************************************
MARC PAULIN
>From: msc...@charm.urbana.mcd.mot.com (Mark Scott)
>Subject: Id sells out! (was Re: KEEN WATCH: The U is Toast)
>Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 14:10:28 GMT
I've seen worse on TV, cinemas, magazines, video stores, etc. Chill
out, please.
Jay, I just bought all 6 missions of Wolf3D and I love them. Count
me in the thousands of people who casted their vote of approval. Can't wait
to see your next "chef d'oeuvre". :)
____
_ _ _ / \ \
/' )' )' ) | | |
/ / / | (_|__/ \
/ / __. .__ ___ | | __. . . \ . ___
/ (__(_/|__) )__/(__ \_/__(_/|__)\_)__/\__)__) <_
+---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| mar...@clement.info.umoncton.ca | "My son, ask for thyself |
| For Talk: 890...@clement.info.umoncton.ca | another kingdom. For what |
|---------------------------------------------+ which I leave is too small |
| When all else fails, read the instructions | for thee" - King Philippe |
+---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
Damien P. Neil
>Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
>quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
Get real. It can be really nice to talk about the purity of the art and so
on, but you generally only get a chance to do so when you have money in
your pocket. Id software is a company that makes games for money. The
people in Id depend on the income from these games to live. If they want to
do a game that makes more money, you have no right to tell them to quit and
go back to something less lucrative.
>to blow holes in Nazi's chest & watch the blood spurt out? Will the game after
>the next one get into decapitations & mutilations? Where is this leading? If
>the moral aspects don't get you down, maybe the legal aspects could. Suppose
>2 years from now, you guys get sued because little 10 year old Johnny
>took a shotgun & toasted his Dad to see if the blood would spurt out "just
>like on Wolf3D"? Sound silly? It could happen. I guess the good news is that
>you'll have plenty of money to pay the legal fees if it happens.
Wolf3D is pacifist compared to any slasher movie out there. And I have yet
to hear of a 10 year old killing his father because he watched a movie.
There is even a school of though that says that violence in games/movies
can be GOOD -- it provides an outlet for tension.
>Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
>are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
>would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
>market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
>game companies have the courage to make.
May I point out that in Wolf3D, Id was experimenting with a new graphics
system? If you've been reading ANY of the things they've been saying about
their next game, you'd realize that it will have all of these things.
Oh -- 'broader market appeal'? Wolf3D seems to have a MUCH broader market
appeal than Keen, and you just got through saying that it was a lousy game!
Look -- the people at Id are not your personal slaves, who exist merely to
create the games that you want. They can and will make the games THEY want
to. If this means that they are going to make games like Wolf3D, that's
their business, not yours.
I personally can't wait to see Id's next game. Wolf3D was to shallow and
too easy for me -- I won the first episode in two days and took it off my
hard drive. If the next one is as good as it sounds, I'll register it as
soon as I get my hands on it. I _like_ violent games -- killing simulated
Nazis is a great alternative to killing my roommate! :-)
>(these are my personal opinions, of course)
" " " " " " "
Marshall Scott Veach
know where I can find the Keen game series - Are any of the keens
in VGA? If so which ones?
From what I can tell these games are shareware so an ftp site must have,
yes?
Thanks, Malcolm.
TAN YEW KEONG
it, stop him. Stop picking on Wolf-3D's violence, it's so mild in my
opinion, and I would so much like more gore - like the blood spilling
itself on my machine gun!
Too often it is emphasized that all this is a matter of personal choice,
but too often it is ignored, so I think it is appropriate here to
emphasize again :
`Playing Wolf is a matter of personal choice.
If you don't like it, dump it. Please!'
Jay Wilbur
: In article <Bw0q...@iat.holonet.net>, jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: |> Here it is plain and simple. Wolf3D is selling like you wouldn't believe
: |> and Keen is not. People, by the thousnads, have cast their vote of approval
: |> for the 3d game play and the violent nature of the game.
: |>
: |> As a groupwith limited resources we cannot please all the people all the
: |> time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
: |> Hence, more 3d, dark games.
: |> --
: |> /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
: |> | Jay Wilbur | jwi...@orac.holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
: |> | Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
: |> \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
: --
: Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
: quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
: to blow holes in Nazi's chest & watch the blood spurt out? Will the game after
: the next one get into decapitations & mutilations? Where is this leading? If
: the moral aspects don't get you down, maybe the legal aspects could. Suppose
: 2 years from now, you guys get sued because little 10 year old Johnny
: took a shotgun & toasted his Dad to see if the blood would spurt out "just
: like on Wolf3D"? Sound silly? It could happen. I guess the good news is that
: you'll have plenty of money to pay the legal fees if it happens.
IMHO, the quality of the game is directly related to the amount of money
made. You are not suggesting that most people are stupid and will by any
trash that hits the streets are you? If you are I must differ with that
opinion. I feel that most people are smart and will buy things only if
they feel what is being purchased is a quality product.
As for being sued...if that happens, we will just have to turn around and
sue one of the big movie makers because we wanted our game to be just like
their action movies.
: Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
: are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
: would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
: market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
: game companies have the courage to make.
Have courage, start a game company and do the game that you desire to
play. That's what we did.
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
Ron Dippold
>Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
>quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
Quality games according to who? Id isn't your personal set of
bootlickers, chartered to make the software you want.
>Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
>are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
>would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
>market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
>game companies have the courage to make.
Hmmm, since Wolf 3D has sold to a broader market and made more money
than Keen, this would indicate that Wolf 3D is a better game than Keen
be your standards. You can't have it both ways, excorciating their
greedy attempt to <gasp> make a decent living for themselves AND
trying to appeal to their profit motive.
>(these are my personal opinions, of course)
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Mark Scott |
>Motorola Computer Group | "Where there is no vision,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm, renowned greedy capitalists. Tch. Tch.
--
People who have never tried it have no idea how pleasant being nasty can be.
Ross Erickson
>|> time. As a business WE MUST please most of the people all of the time.
>|> Hence, more 3d, dark games.
>|> --
>|> /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
>|> | Jay Wilbur | jwi...@orac.holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
>|> | Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
>|> \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
>--
>Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
>quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
>to blow holes in Nazi's chest & watch the blood spurt out? Will the game after
>the next one get into decapitations & mutilations? Where is this leading? If
>the moral aspects don't get you down, maybe the legal aspects could. Suppose
>2 years from now, you guys get sued because little 10 year old Johnny
>took a shotgun & toasted his Dad to see if the blood would spurt out "just
>like on Wolf3D"? Sound silly? It could happen. I guess the good news is that
>you'll have plenty of money to pay the legal fees if it happens.
>Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
>are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
>would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
>market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
>game companies have the courage to make.
>
>(these are my personal opinions, of course)
One quick response to this.......GRAB THE REINS!!!!!
(these are my personal opinions too...)
What a useless post!! You make an assertion like the above without
knowing ANYTHING personal about Jay or ID, or Apogee for that matter.
If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY THE DAMN THING!!! Geez Louise! Let
me give you some statistics. Of all the votes I've tallied so far for
best action/arcade game of the year for 1992, I can't even recall
another vote for a game other than Wolfenstein.
Don't let your moralistic attitudes get in the way of your
entertainment.
--
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Ross Erickson | |
| ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com | "No individual raindrop considers |
| 205-730-4019 - voice | itself responsible for the flood." |
| 205-730-6445 - fax | |
| Internet: 129.135.252.87 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
sam...@zeus.tamu.edu
>
>Don't let your moralistic attitudes get in the way of your
>entertainment.
If this above statement is really your opinion, you sound just like
the "little Johnny" mentioned earlier: do you really think that our
desire for entertainment should be completely unrestrained by a sense
of right vs. wrong? Now _that's_ scary...
(go ahead - flame me)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Steven A. McCluney |"Strange women lying in ponds |
| sam...@zeus.tamu.edu | distributing swords is no basis |
| I'm a grad student, so my opinions | for a system of government!" |
| are worthless anyway | Dennis, to King Arthur |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damien P. Neil
In a previous article, sam...@zeus.tamu.edu () says:
>In article <1992Oct19....@b11.b11.ingr.com>, ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com writes...
>>
>>Don't let your moralistic attitudes get in the way of your
>>entertainment.
>
>
>If this above statement is really your opinion, you sound just like
>the "little Johnny" mentioned earlier: do you really think that our
>desire for entertainment should be completely unrestrained by a sense
>of right vs. wrong? Now _that's_ scary...
>
>(go ahead - flame me)
If you insist... :-)
#define FLAME_MODE ON
Seriously, what does a fictional computer character slaughtering computer
Nazis have to do with real life? Is there ANY evidence anywhere that
playing Wolf3D or any other violent video game has lead to small children
brutally murdering their parents? I thought not...
If players in Wolf3D took the part of Nazis going around killing Jews, you
might have a point. As it is, people who scream that it is dangerously
violent manage to come across to me as hopeless pacifists without a clue as
to the amount of REAL violence going on in the world today.
If you want to stop violence, why don't you go and do it someplace where
assistance is really needed, instead of picking on a harmless video game?
#define FLAME_MODE OFF
There! I feel better already! :-)
Norm MacNeil
In article <1992Oct19....@b11.b11.ingr.com>, ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com (Ross Erickson) writes:
< blah blah blah>
> >(these are my personal opinions, of course)
>
> One quick response to this.......GRAB THE REINS!!!!!
>
> (these are my personal opinions too...)
>
> What a useless post!! You make an assertion like the above without
> knowing ANYTHING personal about Jay or ID, or Apogee for that matter.
> If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY THE DAMN THING!!! Geez Louise! Let
> me give you some statistics. Of all the votes I've tallied so far for
> best action/arcade game of the year for 1992, I can't even recall
> another vote for a game other than Wolfenstein.
>
> Don't let your moralistic attitudes get in the way of your
> entertainment.
** EXACTLY ** 100%, Ross! I had an argument with a friend about movies like
Terminator 2 - her attitude was that the movie was lacking any value since it was
simply a "shoot 'em up" movie and that these kinds of movies were not worth seeing.
My point was that most people go to see movies to be *entertained* - period.
So, enough with the "morals" of games out there, eh? Let's get on with these things -
remember, they're called "games".
Norm.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Norm MacNeil Phone: (613) 763-7497
CAD Operations Fax: (613) 763-3317
Bell-Northern Research Ltd. EMail: no...@bnr.ca (INTERNET)
#include <disclaimer.std> "Roller bladers do it in-line!"
Kit Kimes
>
> Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
> are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
> would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
> market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
> game companies have the courage to make.
Sorry, but that statement just doesn't compute with me. If a game truely
was the type that was enjoyable to play yet took forever to complete, you
wouldn't be buying another game for a long, long time. That company might
be able to take great pride in that game, but I doubt that they would
make great gobs of money on it unless they could convince people to spend
several hundred dollars on each copy. All companies have to hit the fine
balance where you think the game is worth the money ask and yet allows
you to finish it or get tired of it in time to buy their next offering.
Wolf 3D obviously fits the pattern perfectly.
Kit Kimes
AT&T Bell Labs (under contract to NCR)
Naperville, IL
...!att!iwcs!kimes (ki...@iwcs.att.com)
cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Well, if you think that morality should not come into play when choosing games,
then you would obviously have no problem playing those couple of German imports
where you play the role of Hitler and try to determine the best way to
exterminate Jews, right? WRONG!!! I guess I really can't speak for you, but I
know that most people would not play that kind of trash because it is morally
disgusting. Therefore one's morals DO come into play, some people just have a
lower threshhold than you. This doesn't mean they are wrong, or you, it just
means that a person makes his/her own decision on whether a game is suitable to
play. Personally, I have no problem with a game like Wolfenstein 3-D, but
Irespect other people's right to not play it because it offends them.
Jude Greer
cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
cl12...@ulkyvx.bitnet
Neal Miller
>In article <1c13tq...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, dp...@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:
>>
>> In a previous article, sam...@zeus.tamu.edu () says:
>>
>>
>> If you insist... :-)
>>
>> #define FLAME_MODE ON
>>
>> Seriously, what does a fictional computer character slaughtering computer
>> Nazis have to do with real life? Is there ANY evidence anywhere that
>> playing Wolf3D or any other violent video game has lead to small children
>> brutally murdering their parents? I thought not...
>>
>> If players in Wolf3D took the part of Nazis going around killing Jews, you
>> might have a point. As it is, people who scream that it is dangerously
>> violent manage to come across to me as hopeless pacifists without a clue as
>> to the amount of REAL violence going on in the world today.
>>
>> If you want to stop violence, why don't you go and do it someplace where
>> assistance is really needed, instead of picking on a harmless video game?
>Well, if you think that morality should not come into play when choosing games,
>then you would obviously have no problem playing those couple of German imports
>where you play the role of Hitler and try to determine the best way to
>exterminate Jews, right? WRONG!!! I guess I really can't speak for you, but I
>know that most people would not play that kind of trash because it is morally
>disgusting. Therefore one's morals DO come into play, some people just have a
>lower threshhold than you. This doesn't mean they are wrong, or you, it just
>means that a person makes his/her own decision on whether a game is suitable to
>play. Personally, I have no problem with a game like Wolfenstein 3-D, but
>Irespect other people's right to not play it because it offends them.
The underlying fact is that if you took all the pixellated Nazis
that have been "shot" since the release of Wolf3-D, and added them up, I
doubt the total would come close to the number of real-life civilians that
were killed during the roundups of the Nazi regime. I can't think of a
better group to be represented as shooting targets in a game than the Nazis.
Please note that I'm saying "Nazis", not "Germans". The two have little if
anything in common today. Plus, if you insist on taking the idea beyond the
game itself, relatively few people alive today hate the WWII Nazis on the
individual level, as opposed to the ideals, bigotry, and racism for which
they stood. Besides, Judism is a rather benign faith that seems quite content
to exist quietly without instigating much violence. Therefore, making them
the target of a violent game is unreasonable. The Nazis, on the other hand,
were primarily trigger-happy racists. Although I can't see myself ever
pointing a gun at anyone in real life, I must admit that I rather enjoy
shooting at the representations of generic Nazi troops in Wolf 3-D. Once
again, if you don't like the game, don't buy it. 'Nuff said.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neal Miller | "Why not go mad?" | mill...@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
Clarkson University | - Ford Prefect | da...@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damien P. Neil
In a previous article, cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu () says:
>In article <1c13tq...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, dp...@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:
>>
>> In a previous article, sam...@zeus.tamu.edu () says:
>>
>>
>> If you insist... :-)
>>
>> #define FLAME_MODE ON
>>
>> Seriously, what does a fictional computer character slaughtering computer
>>
>>
>>
>> #define FLAME_MODE OFF
>>
>> There! I feel better already! :-)
>> --
>> +-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
>> | Damien Neil | dp...@po.cwru.edu | Case Western Reserve University |
>> +-------------+------------------+---------------------------------+
>
>Well, if you think that morality should not come into play when choosing games,
>then you would obviously have no problem playing those couple of German imports
>where you play the role of Hitler and try to determine the best way to
>exterminate Jews, right? WRONG!!! I guess I really can't speak for you, but I
Allow me to quote myself from my last article:
>> If players in Wolf3D took the part of Nazis going around killing Jews, you
>> might have a point.
Did you even read the post of mine that you are flaming?
>Personally, I have no problem with a game like Wolfenstein 3-D, but
>Irespect other people's right to not play it because it offends them.
Where did I _not_ respect other people's right to not play Wolf3D? Did I
_anywhere_ say that people _must_ play this, or any game? My post was
arguing that people have the right to play any game they want to, and that
Id has a perfect right to make any game they feel like making. This appears
to be a position you agree with. What are you flaming?
You have twisted my words beyond belief. I stated two things:
There is no evidence that playing Wolf3D influences children to kill
their parents.
and:
If people want to play Wolf3D, they can. If Id wants to make more games
like Wolf3D, they can.
You now say that I said:
Pro-Nazi games are fine. (Tell me -- do you think Wolf3D is pro-Nazi?)
Everyone must play Wolf3D.
Why don't you crawl back under whatever rock you emerged from, and learn
how to read before responding to another post here?
Robert W. Igo
(was Re: .. Norm Mac...@bnr.ca (1536)
> So, enough with the "morals" of games out there, eh? Let's get on with
> these things -
> remember, they're called "games".
> Norm.
> --
Yeah, if you're getting your morals from video games, then there's
something wrong in your upbringing. Oh no, now I'll have people flame
me because they think I'm insulting people's families. These humans
make for such amusement...
ri...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
I have to agree with everyone who was dissatisfied with Castle Wolfenstein.
I'm sick and tired of these "great games" that rely totally on graphics and
sound. Even if your machine can support all of the nifty mumbo-jumbo and is
fast enough to make the game move smoothly, like mine is, then you're still
left with what is basically a very boring shoot-em-up. Don't get me wrong--
I like a good shootemup. A GOOD shootemup. Castle Wolfenstein isn't even
that.
Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect. It's more fun, it's easier to play,
and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
-rimbo
Jimmy Rimmer
"Quick, Cosmo, call me a cab!" --Don Lockwood
"Okay, You're a cab!" --Cosmo
(from _Singin'_in_the_Rain_)
Robert W. Igo
other organized racist group? I'd shoot'em :)
(augh, flames from racists are going to flood my mailbox!)
[******************************** Bob Igo ********************************]
"Now let me explain why this makes intuitive sense." --Prof. Larry Wasserman
[**************** gryp...@cmu.edu ***** ri...@andrew.cmu.edu ************]
Ross Erickson
>>entertainment.
>
>If this above statement is really your opinion, you sound just like
>the "little Johnny" mentioned earlier: do you really think that our
>desire for entertainment should be completely unrestrained by a sense
>of right vs. wrong? Now _that's_ scary...
>
>(go ahead - flame me)
I have no desire to flame you. I have every desire to explain what I
mean. We're talking about a computer game. In my mind (I can't speak
for other's minds), this game, Wolfenstein 3-D, is harmless as a form
of entertainment. Basically, it's a maze game. Plus, you have some
obstacles to overcome. Think of it like a virtual reality Pac-Man
game. The Nazis are the guys that you "eat after you take the power
pill" in Pacman. I believe, and it's JUST my opinion, that this is
harmless, simple computer entertainment. If you aren't entertained by
it, fine. Don't EVEN begin to play it. Then again, if you aren't
entertained by anything, how likely is it you will continue to
participate in it, right? With millions of others, I share a high
regard for human life and detest senseless violence on others of the
human race. In other words, I have morals. However, I don't agree
with the originator's post that this form of computer entertainment is
in conflict with his supposed values and morals, the same that I
likely share with him. He attacked ID Software for producing a
_*GAME*_ that depicts violence against a known historical enemy, and
branded ID as a money-grabbing-at-all-costs company that couldn't care
less about what this _*GAME*_ might be doing to our society. I
vehemently disagree with his assertions but certainly allow him his
opinion. My statement above reflects my attitude that this _*GAME*_
shouldn't be in conflict with his moral values on violence and human
life. It is, after all, just bits and bytes. Would it be more
palettable if the "bad guys" in Wolfenstein were little Charlie
Mansons, or three-toed sloths, or perhaps, hostile one-eyed aliens, or
maybe......even feline Kilrathi technologists who want to take over
the earth. What difference does it make? For that matter, what about
our hero exploring and destroying those in the Stygian Abyss who were
"in his way"?
Ross Erickson
>then you would obviously have no problem playing those couple of German imports
>where you play the role of Hitler and try to determine the best way to
>exterminate Jews, right? WRONG!!! I guess I really can't speak for you, but I
That's the whole point. The game you reference apparently is bad,
plus repugnant, so nobody plays it!
>know that most people would not play that kind of trash because it is morally
>disgusting. Therefore one's morals DO come into play, some people just have a
>lower threshhold than you. This doesn't mean they are wrong, or you, it just
>means that a person makes his/her own decision on whether a game is suitable to
>play. Personally, I have no problem with a game like Wolfenstein 3-D, but
>Irespect other people's right to not play it because it offends them.
That's exactly what we're trying to make as our point! If if bothers
you turn it off - the T.V., the radio, your monitor, etc. But stop
bashing those who make a product that is obviously very successful. Geez,
are we defending Nazis here?
cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
And why don't you fucking read what my post says? I was not flaming you I was
pointing out that some games offend people more than others and it is up to the
individual to choose which games they want to play. As for learning how to
read, it seems as though you are the one who needs it you moron.
Jude Greer
Hunting the Snark
In article <82...@ut-emx.uucp>, ri...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu writes...
>[much flame stuff deleted]
>I have to agree with everyone who was dissatisfied with Castle Wolfenstein.
>I'm sick and tired of these "great games" that rely totally on graphics and
>sound. Even if your machine can support all of the nifty mumbo-jumbo and is
>fast enough to make the game move smoothly, like mine is, then you're still
>left with what is basically a very boring shoot-em-up. Don't get me wrong--
>I like a good shootemup. A GOOD shootemup. Castle Wolfenstein isn't even
>that.
I must be the only one who finds Wolfenstein to be challenging from the aspect
of negotiating a maze first and dealing with the guards as merely annoying
obstacles, rather than as a "kill everything in sight" and you'll get through
the level.
>Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
>to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect.
Uh, which "respects" are those? No I'm not being sarcastic; could you be more
specific about how Keen is superior to Wolf. To me they are essentially the
same game. You have to maneuver a character through a maze collecting treasure
and battling enemies along the way. Keen though is from a 3rd person view while
Wolf is 1st person. To me it is the 1st person view that makes Wolf far
superior to Keen. Keen has jumping, but you have no "blind spot", i.e. nothing
can really sneak up behind you like they can in Wolf. Keen also gives you a
slightly more "global view" of the maze, making it less challenging. As for
game design I find both to provide just the right balance between diffculty and
player ability.
>It's more fun, it's easier to play, [ah the truth is revealed]
>and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
>
>Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
what difference would it make, you provided no _useful_ information.
Simply saying it is boring is insufficient.
Steve Marshall
RON RICHARDSON - SUN MICROSYSTEMS
|Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.ibm.pc.games: 11-Oct-92 Wolf3D bad?
|Hahaha! NOT! (w.. Richard Wyc...@eagle.we (2074)
|
|(everything deleted)
|I agree! The only complaint I'd have is the attempt at German grammar
|and pronunciation. Post to the net if you need help next time, guys,
|okay? I'm sure some speaker of German with a SBPro (like myself :} )
|would be willing to help you out if you do another series of
|Wolfenstein's later on.
|
|> --
|> **Richard Wyckoff**RWYC...@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU**(.sig 6.1 - dissolves in H20)**
|> ////
|> Deconstruct this, academic scum!
|> -Rockpool Magazine
|> ////
|
|
|[******************************** Bob Igo ********************************]
|Witty and universally-true .sig file under construction.
|[************************** ri...@andrew.cmu.edu *************************]
So what are those Germans saying? Can anyone translate? The SS guys
sound like they're saying "My leg". My 4yr old daughter, after watching
my play Wolf3D ran around yelling "My leg" and dropping over "dead".
I'm not sure what's worse, her watching TV cartoons or Wolf3D.
Ron
Larry Dunkelman
I like some of you, don't like WOLF-3D. Besides the violence, I just
don't find the game appealing. That doesn't mean it isn't a good game -
just not "my type". I too felt that Id is "selling out". But why? They
have a right to develop any kind of game they like to make money. That is
why they are in the business. But I still feel angry about it. I felt
that Id would continue to create "my type" of game. Now, they have
discovered the "dark side" and things won't be like they were before.
I could flame WOLF like others in an attempt to bring Id back. I don't
think it will work. The "dark side" is too strong. Good luck Id.
Larry
Jay Wilbur
: [much flame stuff deleted]
: I have to agree with everyone who was dissatisfied with Castle Wolfenstein.
: I'm sick and tired of these "great games" that rely totally on graphics and
: sound. Even if your machine can support all of the nifty mumbo-jumbo and is
: fast enough to make the game move smoothly, like mine is, then you're still
: left with what is basically a very boring shoot-em-up. Don't get me wrong--
: I like a good shootemup. A GOOD shootemup. Castle Wolfenstein isn't even
: that.
:
: Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
: to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect. It's more fun, it's easier to play,
: and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
:
: Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
Of course! :)
So far the vote is:
6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
600 that Wolf3d is no good
vs.
10,000+ that it's great.
Humm...who should I believe?
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
TAN YEW KEONG
: In no way Robert implied he was getting his morals from video games!!!
Sorry for this sentence - not Robert ... but the other guy never did
imply that he was getting his morals from video games!
--
_________________________________________________________________________
Michael Tan Yew Keong | law4...@nusunix1.nus.sg | law4...@nusvm.nus.sg|
Final Year Law student - OH GOD, IT'S BEEN A HELLUVA LONG TIME!!! |
________________________________________________________________________|
Singapore is a FINE country - FINE for littering, FINE for chewing gum,|
FINE for smoking, FINE for not flushing public toilets ... et cetera. |
_______________________________________________________________________|
TAN YEW KEONG
:
: > So, enough with the "morals" of games out there, eh? Let's get on with
: > these things -
: > remember, they're called "games".
: something wrong in your upbringing. Oh no, now I'll have people flame
: me because they think I'm insulting people's families. These humans
: make for such amusement...
I'm not gonna flame you for insulting people's families, I'm going to
flame you and insult you for not being able to read.
To quote Damien, `why don't you crawl back to whatever rock you came
from and learn how to read before replying to any post here again?'
In no way Robert implied he was getting his morals from video games!!!
Bob Hurt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far the vote is:
6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
600 that Wolf3d is no good
vs.
10,000+ that it's great.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make that 800 to 10,000. My friend & I agree that W3d is essentially boring
and are waiting/hoping for the next Keen adventure. For what it's worth.
--Bob Hurt
bob...@u.washington.edu
Justin Anderson
>In article QeqlnTS00...@andrew.cmu.edu, "Robert W. Igo" <ri...@andrew.cmu.edu> () writes:
>|Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.ibm.pc.games: 11-Oct-92 Wolf3D bad?
>sound like they're saying "My leg". My 4yr old daughter, after watching
>my play Wolf3D ran around yelling "My leg" and dropping over "dead".
>I'm not sure what's worse, her watching TV cartoons or Wolf3D.
>
>Ron
Regular guards:
Achtung: Attention!
SS guards:
Mein leben!: My life!
Big bad dude:
Guten tag!: Good day!
Justin
jand...@vtssi.vt.edu
Bryan J Welch
Does anyone have the cracks for these two? Romulus doesn't...
thanks,
Bryan
bry...@iastate.edu
--
Bryan Welch N0SFG
Center for Nondestructive Evaluation
Internet: bry...@iastate.edu, bwe...@cnde.iastate.edu
James Hague
>
>So far the vote is:
>
>6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
>
>600 that Wolf3d is no good
>vs.
>10,000+ that it's great.
>
>Humm...who should I believe?
Remember that the biggest selling pop group of 1989 and 1990
was The New Kids on the Block.
[This isn't a flame, I just couldn't resist :-]
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Ron Dippold
>Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
>to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect. It's more fun, it's easier to play,
>and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
In your opinion, which is apparently the minority. Either that or you
"Keen is great but Wolf 3D sucks" folks don't put your money where
your mouth is.
>Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
He's breathlessly hanging on to every word.
--
You are false data.
Brian Nelson
>
>Yep, it's an opinion. I agree that Wolf3D is not exciting anymore after I've
>finished all of it. But the graphics and sound certainly add heaps of
>entertainment value to the gameplay. People will agree that the first time
>they play such a game, they are captured, enthralled, whatever... That's good
>entertainment value.
Figured I'd throw in my opinion, since everyone else did...
When Wolf3D first came out, I got my hands on a beta copy.... It got real
boring real quick, so out came the cd wolf, del *.*...
Then when the release version was ready, I got a copy of that too... Not
much difference, so, yep, you guessed it, del *.*...
Then I heard about the debug codes... got a copy out, played it, skipped to
the end, whoopee, then, one more time, del *.*...
Don't think Wolf#D is going to be making a fourth trip around my hard
drive...
Whew...
"So when I die, the first thing I will see in heaven is a score list?"
1st Law of Hacking: leaving is much more difficult than entering.
2nd Law of Hacking: first in, first out.
3rd Law of Hacking: the last blow counts most.
4th Law of Hacking: you will find the exit at the entrance.
Brian Nelson
b...@po.cwru.edu
David Baggett
>Make that 800 to 10,000. My friend & I agree that W3d is essentially boring
>and are waiting/hoping for the next Keen adventure. For what it's worth.
Ditto. 900 to 10,000.
Dave Baggett
--
d...@ai.mit.edu MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
ADVENTIONS: interactive fiction (text adventures) for the 90's!
d...@ai.mit.edu *** Compu$erve: 76440,2671 *** GEnie: ADVENTIONS
Ron Dippold
>How about a game where we go against the KKK or the neo-nazis or some
>other organized racist group? I'd shoot'em :)
>(augh, flames from racists are going to flood my mailbox!)
Well, you can always use the graphics editors and make the bad guys
whoever you want them to be... Say Bush, Clinton, and Perot.
--
Ada is the COBOL of the 80s
D.A. Svendsen
play on "Daddy, can I play" or "Dont hurt me". Try "Death Incarnate"
Any screwups are usually fatal, so it adds that much more tension to the game!
just my $2xE-02
===========================================================================
Dean Svendsen - 2nd Year Comp Science |
Monash University - Clayton Campus | How much wood could a woodchuck
Melbourne, Victoria, 3192. | chuck if a woodchuck could
| chuck wood?
email:ins...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au |
or | - Guybrush Threepwood
ins...@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au | Le Chuck's Revenge (Act I)
===========================================================================
A day not wasted is a day wasted!!!
Robert W. Igo
(was Re: .. TAN YEW KEONG@nusunix1.n (1284)
> Robert W. Igo (ri...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
> :
> : > So, enough with the "morals" of games out there, eh? Let's get on with
> : > these things -
> : > remember, they're called "games".
> : > --
> : Yeah, if you're getting your morals from video games, then there's
> : something wrong in your upbringing. Oh no, now I'll have people flame
> : me because they think I'm insulting people's families. These humans
> : make for such amusement...
> I'm not gonna flame you for insulting people's families, I'm going to
> flame you and insult you for not being able to read.
I say again: These humans make for such amusement.
> To quote Damien, `why don't you crawl back to whatever rock you came
> from and learn how to read before replying to any post here again?'
Who's Damien, and did he give you permission to quote him?
> In no way Robert implied he was getting his morals from video games!!!
> --
Well, since I am Robert, I agree. I in no way implied I was getting my
morals from video games. I was agreeing with the excerpted poster in
that the discussion of morals in video games was simply silly. I then
added, for the sake of the people who were worrying that people would
somehow become corrupt due to a violent video game, "If you're getting
your morals from video games, then there's something wrong in your
upbringing."
In other words, for an individual, X, to be persuaded to commit a
violent act because he played a game in which he committed violence,
there must be a fundamental lack of morals against doing such a thing in
his/her upbringing. Since this person either has no morals which say
"don't do that" or, even worse, lack any morals, sure, a game could
easily fill in the gaps. You can't blame a game for it if it ends up
being the trigger, though. People have been blaming heavy metal, D&D,
movies, etc. for such things for a long time, because it's easy to do so.
People who were brought up with a decent set of morals would know
better, and not be swayed by a silly game.
Do you understand now, or shall I draw a picture? I'd better start
drawing now... do you want a .gif or .pcx or .bmp?
Is the density of the readership increasing, or what? In my next post,
I must endeavor to explain everything in complete detail and not make
people have to derive any conclusions or make any assumptions on their
own. Sorry to those of you who have a decent English background.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Michael Tan Yew Keong | law4...@nusunix1.nus.sg | law4...@nusvm.nus.sg|
> Final Year Law student - OH GOD, IT'S BEEN A HELLUVA LONG TIME!!! |
> ________________________________________________________________________|
> Singapore is a FINE country - FINE for littering, FINE for chewing gum,|
> FINE for smoking, FINE for not flushing public toilets ... et cetera. |
> _______________________________________________________________________|
[******************************** Bob Igo ********************************]
"Like I've always said: There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really
doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not." --Monty Python
cc...@uqvax.cc.uq.oz.au
ri...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote
>[much flame stuff deleted]
>I have to agree with everyone who was dissatisfied with Castle Wolfenstein.
>I'm sick and tired of these "great games" that rely totally on graphics and
>sound. Even if your machine can support all of the nifty mumbo-jumbo and is
>fast enough to make the game move smoothly, like mine is, then you're still
>left with what is basically a very boring shoot-em-up. Don't get me wrong--
>I like a good shootemup. A GOOD shootemup. Castle Wolfenstein isn't even
>that.
>
>Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
>to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect. It's more fun, it's easier to play,
>and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
>
>Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
Yep, it's an opinion. I agree that Wolf3D is not exciting anymore after I've
finished all of it. But the graphics and sound certainly add heaps of
entertainment value to the gameplay. People will agree that the first time
they play such a game, they are captured, enthralled, whatever... That's good
entertainment value.
Sure, nobody plays a single game all the time. You solve a game, you label
it as a 'classic' or 'average' and put it your closet. When you feel like
playing it again you rip it out and play it again.
IMHO, static-scenario games like the Quest series from Sierra, and other games
including Wolf3D, games that give you the same scenario every time you play
are not worth the 'classic' label. I don't play Space Quest again and again,
over and over.
As for the Keen series, the 4th and up are much much better than the 1-3, in
terms of graphics and animation, larger playing area, etc. They are better
valued. I'd play Wolf3D than Keen 1-3 anytime.
Enough said.
Cheers,
David
Mark Scott
|>
|> In article <1992Oct19....@b11.b11.ingr.com>, ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com (Ross Erickson) writes:
|>
|> < blah blah blah>
|>
|> > >(these are my personal opinions, of course)
|> >
|> > One quick response to this.......GRAB THE REINS!!!!!
|> >
|> > (these are my personal opinions too...)
|> >
|> > What a useless post!! You make an assertion like the above without
|> > knowing ANYTHING personal about Jay or ID, or Apogee for that matter.
|> > If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY THE DAMN THING!!! Geez Louise! Let
|> > me give you some statistics. Of all the votes I've tallied so far for
|> > best action/arcade game of the year for 1992, I can't even recall
|> > another vote for a game other than Wolfenstein.
|> >
|> > Don't let your moralistic attitudes get in the way of your
|> > entertainment.
|>
|> Terminator 2 - her attitude was that the movie was lacking any value since it was
|> simply a "shoot 'em up" movie and that these kinds of movies were not worth seeing.
|> My point was that most people go to see movies to be *entertained* - period.
|> So, enough with the "morals" of games out there, eh? Let's get on with these things -
|> remember, they're called "games".
|>
--
Well, you guys are obviously adult professionals with a clue on reality.
But how do you know what's goes on in the child mind? Isn't that the market
computer games are for? You may have no problem getting your jollies
by killing Nazis, but would you want your 9 year old daughter doing it? There
are rules about who they let into the movie theater, but because this game is
shareware, & can be yours for the price of a phone call, no real parental/adult
intervention need exist. Just because Wolf3D goes over the line with me, &
not you, does that make me wrong? If the trend continues, shareware games
will get more violent, & what the heck, throw in some nudity! Who decides
when it's gone to far? If you say "Let the money decide!", we'll just
get more quickly thrown together games with more & more shock value. In
America, that's the easy way. But, for every registered shareware user, there
is probably at least 2-5 unregistered users. Which I am sure is not
the professional crowd that reads this newsgroup. Does the Shareware
Publisher's Association have rules for this stuff? If not, it looks
like they are going to have to.
_________________________________________________________________________
Mark Scott |
Motorola Computer Group | "Where there is no vision,
Urbana Design Center | the people perish."
#include <std/disclaimer.h> | Proverbs 29:18
Mr R Hamilton
In some article...
>Jay Wilbur writes:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>So far the vote is:
>
>6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
>
>600 that Wolf3d is no good
>vs.
>10,000+ that it's great.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like both Keen and Wolf3d.
Is this allowed, or should I complain about one of them?
Ross
ps. Where can I get one of those big machine guns from Wolf3d?
- there's this kid down the street, thinks he's a space-hero,
and I want to see if his blood spurts out when he gets shot.
-------------
.sig? no .sig
-can't get the hang of ange-ftp :-)
------------
Anders Thulin
In article <1992Oct21....@b11.b11.ingr.com> ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com writes:
>
>That's exactly what we're trying to make as our point! If if bothers
>you turn it off - the T.V., the radio, your monitor, etc. But stop
>bashing those who make a product that is obviously very successful. Geez,
>are we defending Nazis here?
Yes. That's it, precisely. Even Nazis.
(No smileys. I'm serious, in case anyone wonders.)
--
Anders Thulin a...@linkoping.trab.se 013-23 55 32
Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden
Anders Thulin
>game. The Nazis are the guys that you "eat after you take the power
>pill" in Pacman. I believe, and it's JUST my opinion, that this is
>harmless, simple computer entertainment.
I think we're getting very little facts and very much opinion in this
discussion. Having an opinion does not make a good game bad, or vice
versa.
I remember reading various accounts of senseless violence in which the
authors usually tried to get some kind of answer to 'why?'. However,
they didn't get very much further than opinions themselves.
So, I've been waiting for someone in psychology to take that thread
up. How *do* computer games affect us? Does games in which violence
play a large part in any way alter people normal behaviour, making
them more prone to violence? Or do they make players more happy and
relaxed people?
How to children react? How does their personality profile change?
Does it change?
Does anyone have any well founded ideas? (No opinions please, I want
references to journals and behavioural studies.)
Guenter Wunner
>[much flame stuff deleted]
>I have to agree with everyone who was dissatisfied with Castle Wolfenstein.
>I'm sick and tired of these "great games" that rely totally on graphics and
>sound. Even if your machine can support all of the nifty mumbo-jumbo and is
>fast enough to make the game move smoothly, like mine is, then you're still
>left with what is basically a very boring shoot-em-up. Don't get me wrong--
>I like a good shootemup. A GOOD shootemup. Castle Wolfenstein isn't even
>that.
>Commander Keen, all cuteness and EGA graphics aside, is a far superior game
>to Castle Wolfenstein in every respect. It's more fun, it's easier to play,
>and it holds my attention much longer. Castle Wolfenstein is boring.
>Jay Wilbur, are you reading this???
>-rimbo
>Jimmy Rimmer
>"Quick, Cosmo, call me a cab!" --Don Lockwood
>"Okay, You're a cab!" --Cosmo
>(from _Singin'_in_the_Rain_)
I must agree with all of your arguments! You are right, sir!
Lukas.
*** Lukas Wunner, Hustadtring 143, 4630 Bochum, West-Germany ***
*** lu...@trillian.tp1.ruhr-uni-bochum.de / lu...@134.147.160.21 ***
*** "To err is human, but to really fuck things up takes a computer" ***
R. Todd Wall -- Catholic Diocese of Raleigh -- Computer Services
I've just downloaded a game called Keen Dreams from a group called the
Gamers Edge. Are they affiliated(sp?) with ID software???
--
o o ______ _ _____ _ _ o o "But the fruit of the Spirit is
' ' / / / ' ) / // // ' ' love, joy, peace, patience,
/ ______/ __/ / / / __. // // kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
_/ (_) (_/_(_/_ (_(_/ (_/|_</_</ gentleness and self-control."
Mark Harrison
>In article <1992Oct22....@u.washington.edu> bob...@cac.washington.edu (Bob Hurt ) writes:
>>Make that 800 to 10,000. My friend & I agree that W3d is essentially boring
>>and are waiting/hoping for the next Keen adventure. For what it's worth.
>
>Ditto. 900 to 10,000.
I'd like to make that an even 10 to 1 ratio, but I believe I'm one of the
original 600.
--
=============================================================================
Mark Harrison | "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx
harr...@sun.lclark.edu | Our great computers fill the hallowed halls."
-- Me | -- Rush
TAN YEW KEONG
Hey, I'm sorry for this. I think it is a result of MY not being able to
read. I admit to being foolish, and I am apologise sincerely to you
(Robert) for misreading and misunderstanding your article.
I agree with you. When there are idiots like myself (when writing my
posting), people like me do make such good amusement objects. I could
laugh at myself if it wasn't so damn embarassing.
Again, sorry Robert. My apologies. A real thousand of them.
--
Jay Wilbur
Norm MacNeil
In article <1992Oct21....@urbana.mcd.mot.com>, msc...@charm.urbana.mcd.mot.com (Mark Scott) writes:
< previous stuff about "morals about games" etc. and other assorted ramblings>
> --
>
> Well, you guys are obviously adult professionals with a clue on reality.
> But how do you know what's goes on in the child mind? Isn't that the market
> computer games are for? You may have no problem getting your jollies
> by killing Nazis, but would you want your 9 year old daughter doing it? There
> are rules about who they let into the movie theater, but because this game is
> shareware, & can be yours for the price of a phone call, no real parental/adult
> intervention need exist. Just because Wolf3D goes over the line with me, &
> not you, does that make me wrong? If the trend continues, shareware games
> will get more violent, & what the heck, throw in some nudity! Who decides
> when it's gone to far? If you say "Let the money decide!", we'll just
> get more quickly thrown together games with more & more shock value. In
> America, that's the easy way. But, for every registered shareware user, there
> is probably at least 2-5 unregistered users. Which I am sure is not
> the professional crowd that reads this newsgroup. Does the Shareware
> Publisher's Association have rules for this stuff? If not, it looks
> like they are going to have to.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Mark Scott |
> Motorola Computer Group | "Where there is no vision,
> Urbana Design Center | the people perish."
> #include <std/disclaimer.h> | Proverbs 29:18
You may note that the Wolf3D game starts up with a self-rated "PG-13 Extreme carnage"
screen. In other words, they have very thoughtfully rated the game in order for us
"adults" to have an idea who should be seeing this game. And in fact, I do *NOT* let
my 4 year old son watch or play the game because of the fact that there is quite a
bit a carnage involved. And if you're looking for nudity, check out simusex.
Norm.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Norm MacNeil Phone: (613) 763-7497
CAD Operations Fax: (613) 763-3317
Bell-Northern Research Ltd. EMail: no...@bnr.ca (INTERNET)
#include <disclaimer.std> "Roller bladers do it in-line!"
johnso...@bvc.edu
> In article <1992Oct22....@u.washington.edu> bob...@cac.washington.edu (Bob Hurt ) writes:
>>Make that 800 to 10,000. My friend & I agree that W3d is essentially boring
>>and are waiting/hoping for the next Keen adventure. For what it's worth.
>
> Ditto. 900 to 10,000.
>
awhile, true. But it began to dawn on me that it was, for the most part,
boring. All the levels seemed the same to me. There just didn't seem to
be enough variety (like the KEEN games!) to keep me interested for a long
time. Not saying that DOOM won't be a good game. It's a great engine, it
just needs more spice to keep us interested.
--CLJ
"A man works hard for his filth, only to have vagrants come and steal it.
It's a crying shame."
-- Some character, Ren & Stimpy
None of ya Bizness
$IMHO, the quality of the game is directly related to the amount of money
$made. You are not suggesting that most people are stupid and will by any
$trash that hits the streets are you?
Yes.
If you are I must differ with that
$opinion. I feel that most people are smart and will buy things only if
$they feel what is being purchased is a quality product.
Not if shitty product is hyped enough.
BTW I'm a part of what seems like the minority here, those who happen
to like the Commander Keen series and could do without the Wolf3d.
Keen 4 was the most rawest I'd seen of the Keens, and Keen Dreams is a
fave among everybody around here.
But I'll be patient though. This phase'll pass, and once it does
Commander Keen shall rule once again.
--
Malcolm Diallo Moore, CIS-Univ. of Minn. mmo...@staff.tc.umn.edu
moor...@student.tc.umn.edu
"Arresk the Presidink!" mal...@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
-- Popeye the Intelligent Hoodlum
David Merrill
> In article <BwDr1...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
> $IMHO, the quality of the game is directly related to the amount of money
> $made. You are not suggesting that most people are stupid and will by any
> $trash that hits the streets are you?
>
> Yes.
>
> If you are I must differ with that
> $opinion. I feel that most people are smart and will buy things only if
> $they feel what is being purchased is a quality product.
>
> Not if shitty product is hyped enough.
>
I think your comment would apply to shrink-wrapped software pretty well, but
remember that the first episode of Wolf3d is *shareware*. I very much doubt
that anyone would buy a product that they've tried and don't like. Since
just about everybody who has purchase a registered version of wolf3d has
already played the first episode, they obviously enjoyed it enough to put
down their $$$.
I guess you could re-define some terms:
shitty == mmoore doesn't like it
hype == other people do like it (but of course it is still shitty).
Then your comment makes perfect sense.
--
dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visualize whirled peas | The ideas and opinions expressed in this article
-------------------------| are true; the words have been changed to protect
dave merrill | the innocent
dmer...@cdc.hp.com ------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Wilbur
: Jay Wilbur writes:
: >
: >So far the vote is:
: >
: >6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
: >
: >600 that Wolf3d is no good
: >vs.
: >10,000+ that it's great.
: >
: >Humm...who should I believe?
:
:
: Remember that the biggest selling pop group of 1989 and 1990
: was The New Kids on the Block.
:
: [This isn't a flame, I just couldn't resist :-]
That hurt! :)
Did you read a good review of them in almost every record magazine around?
Jay Wilbur
:
: In some article...
: >Jay Wilbur writes:
: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: >So far the vote is:
: >
: >6 (ok I'll be generous and multiply it by 100)
: >
: >600 that Wolf3d is no good
: >vs.
: >10,000+ that it's great.
: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
: I like both Keen and Wolf3d.
: Is this allowed, or should I complain about one of them?
I'll log both your votes and update everything. If you have nothing but
nice things to say...say nice nice things.
: ps. Where can I get one of those big machine guns from Wolf3d?
: - there's this kid down the street, thinks he's a space-hero,
: and I want to see if his blood spurts out when he gets shot.
I bet you listen to Howard Stern in the mornings! :) (we do!)
Jay Wilbur
1,000 Keen vs. 18,000 Wolf3d (it was a good month)
Jay Wilbur
:
: I've just downloaded a game called Keen Dreams from a group called the
: Gamers Edge. Are they affiliated(sp?) with ID software???
They are our former employeer and hold several of our older creations.
Check them out some are quite good.
Arnd-Henning Siebs
[ some stuff deleted ]
> So what are those Germans saying? Can anyone translate? The SS guys
> sound like they're saying "My leg". My 4yr old daughter, after watching
> my play Wolf3D ran around yelling "My leg" and dropping over "dead".
> I'm not sure what's worse, her watching TV cartoons or Wolf3D.
>
> Ron
>
>
Actually it's "Mein Leben", that means "my life". A lot of the other stuff is
not real german but something that should sound like.
---
"A man is a man all of his life, but a woman ! Arnd-Henning Siebs
is only sexy 'til she becomes your wife" ! email: ar...@tpki.toppoint.de
[Al Bundy, from RITES OF PASSAGE (616)] ! 2300 Kiel, Germany
ibidem
I have heard a lot about the charts in CGW's book on Civilization. It
sounds pretty nifty, but I want to know what else it contains. Strategies?
Cheats(not that I use them ;-). )? Tactics? I would like your opinions on if
its worth getting.
thanxs, greg beran
Jay Wilbur
: In article <BwDr1...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: $IMHO, the quality of the game is directly related to the amount of money
: $made. You are not suggesting that most people are stupid and will by any
: $trash that hits the streets are you?
:
: Yes.
:
: If you are I must differ with that
: $opinion. I feel that most people are smart and will buy things only if
: $they feel what is being purchased is a quality product.
:
: Not if shitty product is hyped enough.
What hype? We developed the software and gave the first episode away for
free so everyone could play it and figure out if it was worth their hard
earned money. The decision is made after the user has played the game,
not read an ad and seen a box.
We have begun to place ads in magazines that tell a bit about the game and
direct the reader where the free, episode 1 can be found.
: BTW I'm a part of what seems like the minority here, those who happen
: to like the Commander Keen series and could do without the Wolf3d.
: Keen 4 was the most rawest I'd seen of the Keens, and Keen Dreams is a
: fave among everybody around here.
:
: But I'll be patient though. This phase'll pass, and once it does
: Commander Keen shall rule once again.
You never know. :)
Neal Miller
... > It seems that many people
>think that Nazis and Germans is the same. These opinions origin in
>games like Wolf. Don't get me wrong: I'm not a Hitler-fan. But I don't
>find it funny that you like to shoot Nazis. Have you ever met a
>German? Have you ever met a Nazi? Have you ever talked to Germans
>about that topic? Do you know that there are no Nazis here in Germany?
>In fact, Germany is the country with the highest immigrants rate.
>Perhaps you should try to gather more information on Germany and Nazis
>to understand what you are talking about.
I've talked to many Germans, and I've found that all they really
have in common with the Nazis of WWII is the accent. Not only that, its
wrong to think that Germany has a monopoly on the Nazi regime at this time.
There are hundreds (thousands? >shudder<) of Nazi racists of NON-German
heritage in the United States today, and probably many other countries.
As a matter of fact, I don't *THINK* that the word "Germany" is mentioned
in Wolf3-D, nor are "Germans".
If you're differenciating "German" from "Nazi", and saying that
the two have different meanings (a view that I support wholeheartedly), then
you should take no offense at the game being directed at an organization
that you have no part of. I've never met a Nazi, but I've read much of
their literature, and find it revolting.
In all fairness, I'm all for releasing a graphics-patch for the
game that substitutes white-sheeted Klan members for the Nazis. Any artists
out there feel up to the job? :)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neal Miller | "Why not go mad?" | mill...@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
Clarkson University | - Ford Prefect | da...@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert W. Igo
increasing number of Neo-Nazis. I'm not sure what immigration rates have
to do with anything.
The fact is, the Nazis were a nasty bunch of human beings, and to become
indignant because someone writes a game about killing them is kinda
strange. I'm not sure that your average man on the street would actually
become confused when told that German ==> Nazi is false.
As an example of an analagous type of game, let's assume that a German
company... no, better example: A Turkish software company comes out with
a game like Wolf3d in which you shoot NEO-Nazis. Would that offend you?
Sure, it's human life, but they're just Neo-Nazis. :)
I wouldn't be offended by a game in which the deaths of KKK members or
some other racist groups were killed. Nor would I assume that others
would think that all Americans were members of this group.
I'm really not sure why you would take offense to this game. It is
not anti-German; it is anti-Nazi, a group, as you said, which died out
quite a bit ago. Are there any other Germans on the net (to the
ones that I know: please respond honestly so we can all get a good
perspective here) who also find the game to be anti-German or otherwise
offensive simply because the characters being killed are Nazis and not
some generic group of bad guys?
[******************************** Bob Igo ********************************]
Witty and universally-true .sig file under construction.
Jay Wilbur
:
: Only few people said that Wolf 3D was not a good game. I am also
: wondering why no Germans have posted their opinion on that game. Well,
: now I am the first German to say something about that. I cannot
: understand why so many people play Wolf. I played the first three or
: four levels but then noticed that Id used always the same sprites,
: always the same weapons - Wolf shows not much variation and diversity.
: I played the Keen series and liked them a lot. But not because of the
: Nazis in Wolf, but there were more levels, more humor, more tactics to
: discover, more secrets to reveal (e.g. the Pyramid of the
: Forbidden)...I missed these things in Wolf. The graphics in Wolf 3D
: aren't particularly realistic, too. In fact, they look more like some
: comic strip or something like that. Additionally, I didn't
: like the fact that you have to shoot Nazis. It seems that many people
: think that Nazis and Germans is the same. These opinions origin in
: games like Wolf. Don't get me wrong: I'm not a Hitler-fan. But I don't
: find it funny that you like to shoot Nazis. Have you ever met a
: German? Have you ever met a Nazi? Have you ever talked to Germans
: about that topic? Do you know that there are no Nazis here in Germany?
: In fact, Germany is the country with the highest immigrants rate.
: Perhaps you should try to gather more information on Germany and Nazis
: soc.culture.german and ask the guys there for their opinion about
: Wolfenstein 3D. Most of them will tell you that they don't find Wolf
: 3D a very funny "game".
: Think about what I've said. These topics are no more funny & gamey -
: this is very serious!
It's as serious as you make it!
Nobody here thinks that Nazi == Germans. In fact we scoured the text of
the game just to make sure that MISTAKE was not made.
This is a GAME...it's not a social statement. It wasn't meant to be a
"funny" game it was meant to be an action game. There are parts of the
game that are funny but overall it was designed to be action oriented.
Tim Villa
>So what are those Germans saying? Can anyone translate? The SS guys
>sound like they're saying "My leg". My 4yr old daughter, after watching
>my play Wolf3D ran around yelling "My leg" and dropping over "dead".
>I'm not sure what's worse, her watching TV cartoons or Wolf3D.
>Ron
Well I figure it's "My life!". Mien Lieben... my VERY limited German
recognizes Mien and I guess Lieben is something to do with Living, as
in Liebensraum (living space or whatever...something Hitler used to say)
I don't know what "Tufuffle!" means or "Gutentag!" however...
Tim
Robert O'Brien
A:
All of the above; YES.
Bob
--
Eric A. Meyer
In a previous article, gryp...@CMU.EDU (Robert W. Igo) says, in part:
>The fact is, the Nazis were a nasty bunch of human beings, and to become
>indignant because someone writes a game about killing them is kinda
>strange. I'm not sure that your average man on the street would actually
>become confused when told that German ==> Nazi is false.
I agree. I also don't understand what all of the uproar is about.
Wolfenstein 3D places you in Nazi strongholds during World War II. Of
course you blast every Nazi in sight. What else would you do--try to
peacefully coexist with them? Besides, what's the difference between
killing Nazis in _Wolfenstein 3D_ as opposed to while playing SSI's
_Second Front_? The only one I can see is that in _Second Front_, you're
killing Nazis by the thousands instead of one at a time.
So there's blood flying and men screaming and undead mutants from
beyond the grave and all manner of occasionally icky weirdness in
this game. Some of us like that sort of thing (18,000 by the latest
count). I personally get a preverse thrill out of opening a door and
blowng away some guard with my Gatling gun before he has a chance to
move. In a more abstract sense, I like the way I can play a very modern
version of an old Apple II/C64 classic. (Thanks, Id! I thought everyone
had forgotten about those old games.)
Okay, so the last part of the post hasn't added anything to this thread,
but I think the first paragraph does. Think about it.
-EMeyer
--
"Unstable condition--a symptom of life | Eric A. Meyer (ea...@po.CWRU.edu)
In mental and environmental change | Alumnus, Beta Nu of Theta Chi
Atmospheric disturbance--the feverish flux |---------------------------------
Of human interface and interchange-" -N.P. | "What do you think, sirs?"
J.J.G.M. Nijhuis
>From: tvi...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Tim Villa)
>Subject: Re: Wolf3D bad? Hahaha! NOT! (was Re: KEEN
>Date: 27 Oct 1992 05:50:21 GMT
I don't have an SB so I don't know what they're saying, but my German is
good enough to have a guess. It is definitely "mein leben" instead of "mien
lieben" (and "lebensraum" instead of "liebensraum"). But I wonder if they
actually say "mein leben". Rather stupid thing to say when you are hit,
isn't it? "Tufuffle" must be "teufel" (which means "devil", but is also a
German curse I believe). "Gutentag" just means "good day (to you)", or "
hello".
Jurgen.
Neal Miller
>>Ron
"Guten Tag" is "Good Day", I'm pretty certain. I think that
"Tufuffle" is German for "Hi! I'm an AMWAY salesman." :)
Ziggy
Joseph Ziegler zie...@cs.tamu.edu
Texas A&M University
Me speak for A&M? I can't even spell it!
James Hague
>
>Yes, these games [Xenocide & Wordtris] are somewhat old, but I love them.
Jude Greer writes:
>
>However, some of the reviews are kinda old (Links 386, Legend of Kyrandia)
Man, the word _old_ takes on a whole new meaning when applied to
computer software. Links 386 was released when, August 1992? Wordtris
was also released this year.
[Ever notice that SimCity and Prince of Persia are rarely called old,
though they are probably the oldest games still on the market--released
in 1988 and 1989 I believe.]
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Howie
mein leben: My life!!!
schulstaffel: SS... German elite stormtrooper (my germanic
spelling may be off =-))
i cant remember the others... its been awhile..
Howie
.
Ben Rudiak-Gould
The following are paraphrased from two articles posted recently
to this newsgroup by Jay Wilbur. (Unfortunately, the articles
have expired here, so I can't get exact quotes, but I'm sure
you'll recognize them anyway.)
1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
game company. We did."
2. "This is quite simple: Wolf3d is selling like crazy and
Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
In other words: Id's members started Id because they wanted to
make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
future game plans based on what sells the best, i.e. what makes
the most money. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of the
term, Id *has* sold out.
My opinion is that this is inevitable in any company (except those
that go out of business :-). Specifically, I have seen it happen
already to Apple Computer and Sierra Online, two companies whose
development I have followed for many years. I suppose that it's
a necessary result of capitalism, but I still think that it's
a Bad Thing.
I think that there's still some hope for Id, though. It is still a
very small company, with only eight employees. (Am I right here?)
One of those eight people is on the Internet, and he responds
personally to the questions, comments, and flames of mere mortals
such as us. Until Jay decides to stop wasting his time, I won't
give up on Id.
I would, however, like to make a personal appeal to Id (and perhaps
I speak on the behalf of others). Please be faithful to your
beginnings and make the games that *you* want to see. If you want
to see another 3-D shoot-em-up like Wolf3d, then I am prepared to
eat my words. From your second post above, though, it didn't
sound that way.
Thanks for listening.
--
Ben Rudiak-Gould
be...@ocf.berkeley.edu
J.J.G.M. Nijhuis
>From: lab...@emory.edu (Howie)
>Subject: Re: Wolf3D bad? Hahaha! NOT! (was Re: KEEN
>here's a list of what the german's say as they die or whatever
>
>mein leben: My life!!!
>schulstaffel: SS... German elite stormtrooper (my germanic
> spelling may be off
Yes indeed it's off. The correct spelling is 'Schutz Staffel' which means '
protection unit'. Originally the SS was intended to protect or guard the
high SA officers, but in the course of time they took over from the SA and
became the main Nazi corps. The SS-members were politically educated in the
Nazi ideology (deformed in fact) and very fanatic. There were various types
of SS-units. The SS-soldiers belonged to the Waffen-SS and the
concentration camp guards were mostly from the "political" SS-units, but
sometimes the difference was hard to tell. I believe that most waffen-SS
men were just elite soldiers and were not involved in war crimes more than
men or units from the regular army.
Anyway, let's just enjoy the game...
Jurgen
HCM...@psuvm.psu.edu
Aargh! - Aargh
Ohhhh! - Ohhhh
Blue Soldiers: Shutz Staffle - Elite Guard!
Mein Leben - My Life
White Soldiers: Spiat! - Spy!
Mein Fromage - My Cheese. (OK, not really. I'm not sure
what this one means.)
Big Blue Bad Buy: Gutentag! - Good Day
Mutti - Mother
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG - death
I don't recall the others right now. Sorry.
| O | | O |
| | Hans C. Masing "By all means marry: If you get a good | |
| O | HCM100 @ PSUVM.psu.edu wife, you'll become happy; if you get | O |
| | HCM100 @ CBA1.psu.edu a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." | |
| O | Penn State MIS Dept. - Socrates | O |
| | | |
Teri Takamoto
> Bryan J Welch writes:
>>
>>Yes, these games [Xenocide & Wordtris] are somewhat old, but I love them.
>
> Jude Greer writes:
>>
>>However, some of the reviews are kinda old (Links 386, Legend of Kyrandia)
>
> Man, the word _old_ takes on a whole new meaning when applied to
> computer software. Links 386 was released when, August 1992? Wordtris
> was also released this year.
> [Ever notice that SimCity and Prince of Persia are rarely called old,
> though they are probably the oldest games still on the market--released
> in 1988 and 1989 I believe.]
With SimCity & Prince of Persia, based on the fact they're still
around, the word to use is probably "Classics". Links/Links 386 will
likely become "Classics" as well.
Xenocide *is* a little old--1990, I believe. I think it may be
out of print and in the bargain bins as well. Wordtris is a subset of
the Tetris family of games--indeed, there's a "Tetris Classic" on the
market now. Wordtris, though, is just about "off the pop charts" by
now. I think that's almost a year old.
When the poster said the reviews were "kinda old" on Links 386
and Legend of Kyrandia, he likely meant that the most recent issue of
Computer Gaming World is reviewing them. From most of the posts I've
read, many people here on the net have *finished* Legend of Kyrandia.
So whether a game is "old" or "new" is all relative.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Teri Takamoto California State Polytechnic University, Pomona |
| Senior Computer Operator Computing Resource Center |
| tatak...@csupomona.edu (this .sig is *not* quotable) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARC PAULIN
>We want more 3D...we love new technology. Our next game will make Wolf3d
>look like a high school programming project. It will still have the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>action of Wolf3d, but will also have more plot depth, will be multi-player
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>(modem and LAN) and, most of all, it will have more cool power-ups. :)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>--
>/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
>| Jay Wilbur | jwi...@holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
>| Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
>\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
WOW!! Can't wait to see it!! Do you have a releasing date in mind?
Could you give us a little hint about the story line? Just a little
something. Not much... :)
Markus
Jay Wilbur
: Let me make a few observations, and then a few statements.
:
: The following are paraphrased from two articles posted recently
: to this newsgroup by Jay Wilbur. (Unfortunately, the articles
: have expired here, so I can't get exact quotes, but I'm sure
: you'll recognize them anyway.)
:
: 1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
: game company. We did."
Incorrect! A better paraphrase:
Start your own game company to make the games that you want to play.
That's what we did.
: 2. "This is quite simple: Wolf3d is selling like crazy and
: Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
: people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
IMHO, if we make the games that we, as hard core game players, want to
play, game players everywhere will enjoy them too. So far that line
of thought seems to be correct.
: In other words: Id's members started Id because they wanted to
: make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
: future game plans based on what sells the best, i.e. what makes
: the most money. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of the
: term, Id *has* sold out.
Sold out? We bought into our dreams and control our own destiny!
We love the 3D games. We love the dark settings. We think it's cool that
we make the games that we, as hard core game players, want to play. We
made Wolf3d because we wanted to play a game like Wolf3D. That's how all
our games are made.
: My opinion is that this is inevitable in any company (except those
: that go out of business :-). Specifically, I have seen it happen
: already to Apple Computer and Sierra Online, two companies whose
: development I have followed for many years. I suppose that it's
: a necessary result of capitalism, but I still think that it's
: a Bad Thing.
:
: I think that there's still some hope for Id, though. It is still a
: very small company, with only eight employees. (Am I right here?)
: One of those eight people is on the Internet, and he responds
: personally to the questions, comments, and flames of mere mortals
: such as us. Until Jay decides to stop wasting his time, I won't
: give up on Id.
There are six of us now and two soon to come on. I'll never give up on
you, if you don't give up on me. :)
: I would, however, like to make a personal appeal to Id (and perhaps
: I speak on the behalf of others). Please be faithful to your
: beginnings and make the games that *you* want to see. If you want
: to see another 3-D shoot-em-up like Wolf3d, then I am prepared to
: eat my words. From your second post above, though, it didn't
: sound that way.
We want more 3D...we love new technology. Our next game will make Wolf3d
look like a high school programming project. It will still have the
action of Wolf3d, but will also have more plot depth, will be multi-player
(modem and LAN) and, most of all, it will have more cool power-ups. :)
--
Tim Tschirner
Just to make some corrections.....
|> Brown Soldiers: ACHTUNG! - Attention!
^
|> Aargh! - Aargh
|> Ohhhh! - Ohhhh
|>
|> Blue Soldiers: Schutz Staffel - Elite Guard!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Mein Leben - My Life
|>
|> White Soldiers: Spion! - Spy!
^^^^^
|> Mein Fromage - My Cheese. (OK, not really. I'm not sure
|> what this one means.)
|>
|>
|> Big Blue Bad Buy: Guten Tag! - Good Day
^^^^^^^^^
|> Mutti - Mother
|> BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG - death
|>
|> I don't recall the others right now. Sorry.
But anyway, it`s real hard to understand these guys!
Tim
***********************************************************************
* Tim Tschirner Tim Tschirner *
* Technische Fakultaet Technical Faculty *
* Universitaet Bielefeld University Of Bielefeld *
* Internet: 1) itts...@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de *
* 2) utec...@unibi.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de *
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* Adresse: Address: *
* Clarenstr. 19, W-4900 Herford, West Germany, Europe, Planet Earth *
* ------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* " To Be Free Means To Be Free From The Need To Be Free " *
* - George Clinton, Founder Of Parliament/Funkadelic *
***********************************************************************
Guenter Wunner
> And if you're looking for nudity, check out simusex.
Where???? I want it!!! Tell me the FTP site!!!!
[Many thanx in advance]
8-)
Lukas.
*** Lukas Wunner, Hustadtring 143, 4630 Bochum, West-Germany ***
*** lu...@trillian.tp1.ruhr-uni-bochum.de / lu...@134.147.160.21 ***
*** "To err is human, but to really fuck things up takes a computer" ***
Guenter Wunner
>No, there are probably no Nazis in Germany. However, there are an
>increasing number of Neo-Nazis. I'm not sure what immigration rates have
>to do with anything.
Yes, there are Neo-Nazis in Germany. But the more Neo-Nazis there are,
the more people become Anti-Neo-Nazis. For example, the topic is
currently extensively discussed at German schools. I know that 100 % of
the pupils are against what happened in Rostock et al (there was an
inquiry in my sons class (and several other classes); FYI, my son is
16 years old). I mentioned the immigration rates because this is proof
for the pro-foreigners opinion in Germany.
>The fact is, the Nazis were a nasty bunch of human beings, and to become
>indignant because someone writes a game about killing them is kinda
>strange. I'm not sure that your average man on the street would actually
>become confused when told that German ==> Nazi is false.
I already said that the Nazis were nasty. Perhaps you should re-read my post.
I didn't criticize Wolf for the killed Nazis. I said that these games
are responsible for the opinion that Nazis were bad guys and therefore
Germans are bad guys, too. That's why I became indignant, not because
you shoot Nazis in the game.
>As an example of an analagous type of game, let's assume that a German
>company... no, better example: A Turkish software company comes out with
>a game like Wolf3d in which you shoot NEO-Nazis. Would that offend you?
>Sure, it's human life, but they're just Neo-Nazis. :)
I don't think that a Turkish company would ever come out with such a
game. You don't want to do something to somebody that you don't want
him to do to you (excerpts from the bible, I think), would ya?
Besides, you don't seem to know much about the reasons for the
Neo-Nazis. Only a few of these guys are real Neo-Nazis. Most of them
are just disappointed by the politicians and that they have to pay
high rents for their appartments and that they don't get a job and
that they have to pay that much tax for the reunification. They decide
to take the immigrants and foreigners for their scapegoat and that's
the reason for the high numbers of Neo-Nazis (in the eastern part of
Germany, mostly).
>I wouldn't be offended by a game in which the deaths of KKK members or
>some other racist groups were killed. Nor would I assume that others
>would think that all Americans were members of this group.
The KKK is not very well-known in other countries. I suppose you
wouldn't be offended by a KKK game because you are not a member of the
group (are you?). But because of two WWs, the Germans are
well-known as the bad guys, the Nazis.
>I'm really not sure why you would take offense to this game. It is
>not anti-German; it is anti-Nazi, a group, as you said, which died out
>quite a bit ago.
You should really re-read my post. I am not offended by the game
itself, but I am scared by the many people that think that Nazi=German.
Please read the articles on soc.culture.german and tell me how many
Neo-Nazis you encountered and how many Anti-Neo-Nazis. This would
really interest me!
Ross Erickson
>
>The following are paraphrased from two articles posted recently
>to this newsgroup by Jay Wilbur. (Unfortunately, the articles
>have expired here, so I can't get exact quotes, but I'm sure
>you'll recognize them anyway.)
>
>1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
> game company. We did."
>
> Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
> people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
>
>make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
I don't speak for ID, nor do I make any presumptions that they agree
with me, though they might, but I could guess pretty safely that the
founders of ID went into business for the same reason that IBM got
into business...to make a profit and a livlihood for themselves.
Why else would someone go into business?
>future game plans based on what sells the best, i.e. what makes
>the most money. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of the
>term, Id *has* sold out.
Gee, according to your definition so has the entire Fortune 1000!! My
company has sold out! GAME BYTES has sold out because I'm making the
magazine I want to produce.
>
>My opinion is that this is inevitable in any company (except those
>that go out of business :-). Specifically, I have seen it happen
>already to Apple Computer and Sierra Online, two companies whose
>development I have followed for many years. I suppose that it's
>a necessary result of capitalism, but I still think that it's
>a Bad Thing.
I firmly disagree. According to the data that is getting back to
them, successful companies are producing the products that people want
to buy. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple and Sierra have "sold
out"?? To whom?? Apple is now a >7 billion dollar company? Doesn't
that tell you something? Sierra has posted tremendous growth rates
and quantifiably better products each year. Who are they "selling
out" to?? Obviously the people who want to buy their products.
>
>I think that there's still some hope for Id, though. It is still a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Me too!! A GREAT DEAL of hope. They are one of the hottest
development teams available in the industry today. I'd say their
future looks VERY bright.
>very small company, with only eight employees. (Am I right here?)
>One of those eight people is on the Internet, and he responds
>personally to the questions, comments, and flames of mere mortals
>such as us. Until Jay decides to stop wasting his time, I won't
>give up on Id.
What is there to possibly give up on?? They are producing
cutting-edge games that are being gobbled up in swarms. They are
producing the games people want to buy.
>
>I would, however, like to make a personal appeal to Id (and perhaps
>I speak on the behalf of others). Please be faithful to your
>beginnings and make the games that *you* want to see. If you want
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nonsense! (again, I only speak for myself and my own preconceived
notions about what they are 'about'. But after speaking with Jay on
the phone several times, I think I have gotten the picture...) They
want to produce the games that _*we*_ want...specifically the games
that we want to buy!! This is no charity contest.
>to see another 3-D shoot-em-up like Wolf3d, then I am prepared to
>eat my words. From your second post above, though, it didn't
>sound that way.
Why is it perceived that it's an either/or here? I believe (read: I
know) that it ISN'T an either/or case. Keen lives on. Wolf-3D lives
on. Doom will live on..
>
>Thanks for listening.
No problem.
--
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Ross Erickson | |
| ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com | "No individual raindrop considers |
| 205-730-4019 - voice | itself responsible for the flood." |
| 205-730-6445 - fax | |
| Internet: 129.135.252.87 | |
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
Jeff Epler
>In article <BwuDz...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
>
>
>>We want more 3D...we love new technology. Our next game will make Wolf3d
>>look like a high school programming project. It will still have the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>action of Wolf3d, but will also have more plot depth, will be multi-player
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>(modem and LAN) and, most of all, it will have more cool power-ups. :)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> WOW!! Can't wait to see it!! Do you have a releasing date in mind?
>Could you give us a little hint about the story line? Just a little
A question (Whose answer I doubt I want) -- Am I going to be able to use
this game on my wimpy '286? Or are you, too, making your newer programs
run only on 386 and better processors? <sigh>
(Would this trend of complexity and processor-hungry graphics also exclude
a version of Wolf3d and other games of its like on the Commodore 64? :)
to...@esimis.uucp
> Let me make a few observations, and then a few statements.
>
> The following are paraphrased from two articles posted recently
> to this newsgroup by Jay Wilbur. (Unfortunately, the articles
> have expired here, so I can't get exact quotes, but I'm sure
> you'll recognize them anyway.)
>
> 1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
> game company. We did."
>
> 2. "This is quite simple: Wolf3d is selling like crazy and
> Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
> people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
>
> In other words: Id's members started Id because they wanted to
> make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
> the most money. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of the
> term, Id *has* sold out.
>
> that go out of business :-). Specifically, I have seen it happen
> already to Apple Computer and Sierra Online, two companies whose
> development I have followed for many years. I suppose that it's
> a necessary result of capitalism, but I still think that it's
> a Bad Thing.
>
> One of those eight people is on the Internet, and he responds
> personally to the questions, comments, and flames of mere mortals
> such as us. Until Jay decides to stop wasting his time, I won't
> give up on Id.
>
> I speak on the behalf of others). Please be faithful to your
> beginnings and make the games that *you* want to see. If you want
> eat my words. From your second post above, though, it didn't
> sound that way.
>
>
> --
> Ben Rudiak-Gould
> be...@ocf.berkeley.edu
the way I read Jay's posts, he was saying that they want to make more
dark 3d killing and shooting games. I beileve he was quoting sales
figures to stifle critisism from people that were basiclly saying that
he was wrong to want to do what he(they) wanted
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Lee Towe TO...@ESIMIS.UUCP |
| Electro Scientific Industries |
| Portland, Oregon ^(@,@)^ who..who |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
> look like a high school programming project. It will still have the
> action of Wolf3d, but will also have more plot depth, will be multi-player
> (modem and LAN) and, most of all, it will have more cool power-ups. :)
>
> --
> /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
> | Jay Wilbur | jwi...@holonet.net | CIS: 72600,1333 | Fidonet |
> | Id Software | AOL: Id Softwr | GEnie: jjj | 1:124/6300 |
> \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Hey Jay, have you all at Id decided whether or not you'll release a shareware
version for people to test it out? DOOM that is. I really like the concept of
being able to try it out first.
Jude Greer
cl12...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
cl12...@ulkyvx.bitnet
Fengxi Zhou
: ro...@ateami2.EBay.Sun.COM (RON RICHARDSON - SUN MICROSYSTEMS) writes:
:
: [ some stuff deleted ]
:
: > So what are those Germans saying? Can anyone translate? The SS guys
: > sound like they're saying "My leg". My 4yr old daughter, after watching
: > my play Wolf3D ran around yelling "My leg" and dropping over "dead".
: > I'm not sure what's worse, her watching TV cartoons or Wolf3D.
: >
: > Ron
: >
: >
:
: Actually it's "Mein Leben", that means "my life". A lot of the other stuff is
: not real german but something that should sound like.
:
:
: ---
: "A man is a man all of his life, but a woman ! Arnd-Henning Siebs
: is only sexy 'til she becomes your wife" ! email: ar...@tpki.toppoint.de
: [Al Bundy, from RITES OF PASSAGE (616)] ! 2300 Kiel, Germany
How come you guys heard all those fun stuff and I have never heard anything
other than opening/closing doors and shooting? Is mine an old version or
do I need some fancy accessaries? I use plain PC sound.
Jeff Foy
my hardware so, admittedly, it can't get a fair trial ...
--
Jeffery Foy -- Either: jf...@glia.biostr.washington.edu -or-
*** FREE BILL & KATHY SWAN ***
-*- Happy as a clam to be using Professional YAM -*- :)
M.E. Donnaruma
>Brown Soldiers: ACTUNG! - Attention!
> Aargh! - Aargh
> Ohhhh! - Ohhhh
>
> Mein Leben - My Life
>White Soldiers: Spiat! - Spy!
> Mein Fromage - My Cheese. (OK, not really. I'm not sure
> what this one means.)
They saoud like they're saying "Freon!" or maybe Spion...
>
>Big Blue Bad Buy: Gutentag! - Good Day
> Mutti - Mother
> BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG - death
>
>I don't recall the others right now. Sorry.
>| O | | O |
>| | Hans C. Masing "By all means marry: If you get a good | |
>| O | HCM100 @ PSUVM.psu.edu wife, you'll become happy; if you get | O |
>| | HCM100 @ CBA1.psu.edu a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." | |
>| O | Penn State MIS Dept. - Socrates | O |
>| | | |
MR BL MEIER
>find it funny that you like to shoot Nazis. Have you ever met a
>German? Have you ever met a Nazi? Have you ever talked to Germans
>about that topic? Do you know that there are no Nazis here in Germany?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yep... no Nazis, they've been replaced by the ever growing Neo-
Nazis... and I have a few German friends...
KnightOrc
(What I say is what I mean, nothing to do with Rhodes University)
David R McClintock
You need at least a Soundblaster or better sound card to heard the screams,yells, gun
shots, and door openings of any version of WOLF3D (but registered version has more
sounds).
Dave
Mike Ching
The Disney Sound Source is supported in Wolf3D for sound effects like the
screams and shots. I hope ID continues to support it in future games.
Mike Ching
Jay Wilbur
: How come you guys heard all those fun stuff and I have never heard anything
: other than opening/closing doors and shooting? Is mine an old version or
: do I need some fancy accessaries? I use plain PC sound.
You need a PC Sound Card to get the digitized sounds.
Jay Wilbur
: > We want more 3D...we love new technology. Our next game will make Wolf3d
Of course DOOM will be released as shareware. That's our gig!
Raistlin Majere
>
> I have heard a lot about the charts in CGW's book on Civilization. It
>sounds pretty nifty, but I want to know what else it contains. Strategies?
>Cheats(not that I use them ;-). )? Tactics? I would like your opinions on if
>its worth getting.
>thanxs, greg beran
>
I wouldn't advise getting this book. Although the charts
are pretty useful... In the long run, you'll find that most of the
strategies have already been reiterated here on the net about 10
times..... It's not worth your while unless your a die-hard Civ
fan.
--
Raistlin Majere, Alpha Institute. - DOMAIN lu...@scicom.alphacdc.com
Order of the Black Robes, {csn,ncar,}!scicom!lucas Kevin L. Lord
"Est Sularis Oth Mithas, My Honor is my Life." --- Michael
"Yes. So it generally ends." --- Raistlin Majere
Tim Villa
>Well, at least you admit it that you're driving motivation is to get rich
>quick instead of making quality games. What happens when it gets boring
>to blow holes in Nazi's chest & watch the blood spurt out? Will the game after
>the next one get into decapitations & mutilations? Where is this leading? If
>the moral aspects don't get you down, maybe the legal aspects could. Suppose
>2 years from now, you guys get sued because little 10 year old Johnny
>took a shotgun & toasted his Dad to see if the blood would spurt out "just
>like on Wolf3D"? Sound silly? It could happen. I guess the good news is that
>you'll have plenty of money to pay the legal fees if it happens.
Get real! Look at the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! My little cousin has
attacked me with knives after watching that show and I haven't heard of
any legal suits against TMNT creators.
>Just because Wolf3D is selling well, doesn't mean it's a good game. There
>are just very precious few quality games available. A truly innovative game
>would require more effort but would have a MUCH longer life span, broader
>market appeal, & in the end, make you even more money. That's a gamble few
>game companies have the courage to make.
True, I like to see a quality game as well even though I love Wolf3D.
But why play->buy Keen if you already have Super Mario Bros on Nintendo?
>(these are my personal opinions, of course)
Good to see some serious opinions with a disclaimer :)
Same goes for me.
>Mark Scott
Tim Villa
tvi...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
Elliott Kleinrock
>ro...@ateami2.EBay.Sun.COM (RON RICHARDSON - SUN MICROSYSTEMS) writes:
>>So what are those Germans saying?
>recognizes Mien and I guess Lieben is something to do with Living, as
>in Liebensraum (living space or whatever...something Hitler used to say)
Yes.
>I don't know what "Tufuffle!" means or "Gutentag!" however...
>Tim
"Gutentag" is "Good day" -- Which is how to say "Hello" in German.
I dont't know what Tufuffle is and have never heard it (Where is it said).
"Mein Brudder" is "My brother" (Gretta says this)
"Die Amerikan swein hund" is "Die American swine hound" (Hitler says this).
I have no idea what "Leon" is (The officers in white say this when they see
you).
- Elliott
ell...@oliafd.shel.isc-br.com
...!{ philabs | yale | oliveb | decvax | iscuva }!oliafd!elliott
Jay Wilbur
: In article <markus.148...@clement.info.umoncton.ca> mar...@clement.info.umoncton.ca (MARC PAULIN) writes:
: >In article <BwuDz...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
: >
: >
: >>We want more 3D...we love new technology. Our next game will make Wolf3d
: >>look like a high school programming project. It will still have the
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >>action of Wolf3d, but will also have more plot depth, will be multi-player
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >>(modem and LAN) and, most of all, it will have more cool power-ups. :)
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >>\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
: >
: >
: > WOW!! Can't wait to see it!! Do you have a releasing date in mind?
: >Could you give us a little hint about the story line? Just a little
:
: A question (Whose answer I doubt I want) -- Am I going to be able to use
: this game on my wimpy '286? Or are you, too, making your newer programs
: run only on 386 and better processors? <sigh>
386 only...sorry!
Jay Wilbur
Jay Wilbur
: In article <1992Oct28.2...@b11.b11.ingr.com> ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com writes:
: >>1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
: >> game company. We did."
: >>
: >>2. "This is quite simple: Wolf3d is selling like crazy and
: >> Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
: >> people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
: >>
: >>In other words: Id's members started Id because they wanted to
: >>make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
: > I could guess pretty safely that the
: >founders of ID went into business for the same reason that IBM got
: >into business...to make a profit and a livlihood for themselves.
: >
: >Why else would someone go into business?
: That was the point of quote #1 above. Jay says I misquoted him,
: but the intent of his correction was about the same: Id went into
: business because they wanted to make the games that they thought
: should be made. I will admit, though, that making a living was
: probably another concern.
Actually making a living was a concern, but not as big (nor has it grown)
as making good games that we enjoy. The fact that our income has rose is
nothing but a side effect. I guess game players out there want to play
the same type of games that we want to play.
: >>future game plans based on what sells the best, i.e. what makes
: >>the most money. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of the
: >>term, Id *has* sold out.
:
: >Gee, according to your definition so has the entire Fortune 1000!!
:
: Yeah, that was part of my point.
I still say we've held on to our ideals. We make the games that we want
to play! The only factor that influences the decision on what games we
produce is the Id coolness factor.
: >GAME BYTES has sold out because I'm making the magazine I want to produce.
:
: Huh? Look carefully at what I was saying: I _wanted_ Id to make
: the games it wanted to produce. My problem was its pandering to the
: consumer instead of to itself, as was evidenced by Jay Quote #2.
: Why do I think this is bad? Because in my experience, as companies
: have become more consumer-oriented, their products have gained glitz
: and lost substance. I prefer substance over glitz. So sue me.
: (More on this later.)
So do we...we learned a lesson with Wolf3D and you'll see the results in DOOM.
: >> I suppose that it's
: >>a necessary result of capitalism, but I still think that it's
: >>a Bad Thing.
: >
: >I firmly disagree. According to the data that is getting back to
: >them, successful companies are producing the products that people want
: >to buy. Nothing more, nothing less.
:
: It sounds like you firmly agree, to me.
:
: Glitz sells, and substance does not. By no means is this limited
: to the world of computer gaming. Advertising in general, and TV
: advertising in particular, are examples. The presidential campaign
: (I'm in the US here) is another. I can remember dozens of witty
: sound bites, but when the candidates got into the nitty-gritty,
: they didn't hold my attention for long. The same is true for your
: plain, ordinary computer-game buyers (the "people," as you called
: them)--they look at a game in CGA or, worse yet, text, and say,
: "yuck." Seldom would they pursue this game further.
:
: People are getting fed up with the glitz in the presidential
: campaign. There might be a similar movement against glitz in
: computer games. The fact is, though, that like it or not,
: substance sells fewer copies.
:
: I guess what we really need to make everyone happy are games with
: glitz _and_ substance. This means double the work for the game
: producers, though. And a lot of people would probably complain
: that the resulting games were too hard.
:
:
: > Sierra has posted tremendous growth rates
: >and quantifiably better products each year.
:
: I'd like to know what you mean by "better" here--you said you could
: quantify it. I would, without hesitation, apply the adjective "better"
: to the games' graphics, and graphics quality can be quantified.
: However, I'm hard pressed to think of another thing that's better about
: the game. Here's a quantifiable test of "betterness": It has taken
: me progressively less and less time to complete the newer games in the
: Space Quest and King's Quest series. The time I spent solving one
: Infocom game was very approximately equal to the amount of time I spent
: solving all of the Sierra games I've played, combined. I would be more
: inclined to attribute this to a decline in the complexity and challenge
: of the games than to some huge increase in my game-solving abilities.
: But please, show that I'm wrong by showing how Sierra's newer products
: are quantifiably better.
:
: >Who are they "selling
: >out" to?? Obviously the people who want to buy their products.
:
: I couldn't have said it better myself.
:
: >>I think that there's still some hope for Id, though. It is still a
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >Me too!! A GREAT DEAL of hope. They are one of the hottest
: >development teams available in the industry today. I'd say their
: >future looks VERY bright.
:
: Yup. Nothing else compares to the bright gleam of real money.
Not true...nothing beats seeing your work be used and enjoyed by so many
people!
: >>I would, however, like to make a personal appeal to Id (and perhaps
: >>I speak on the behalf of others). Please be faithful to your
: >>beginnings and make the games that *you* want to see. If you want
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >Nonsense! They
: >want to produce the games that _*we*_ want...specifically the games
: >that we want to buy!!
:
: But are they producing them because they want the game or because
: they want your money?
We make the games that we want to play. To answer your question: becuase
we want the game. The money is a plesant side-effect.
Robert Hayden
*begin whine mode*
Jaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy.....
You keep talking about DOOM, You gave us a teaser of the plotline making
us all squirm in our seats in anticipation.....
But . . . uh . . . *pleads* . . . when is this thing coming out? And will
there be a shareware "teaser" like on Wolf3d?
(and if you answered those questions and I missed them, you can thwap me
with a wet carp).
Thanks :)
Robert
--
>> Robert Hayden | raha...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu | aq...@slc4.INS.CWRU.Edu <<
>>>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-<<<
>> Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: <<
>> There's always one more bug. <<
Adrian Hurt
>Blue Soldiers: Shutz Staffle - Elite Guard!
>White Soldiers: Spiat! - Spy!
Spion
>Big Blue Bad Buy: Gutentag! - Good Day
Guten Tag!
> Mutti - Mother
Mummy!
("Mutter" is German for "Mother", "Mutti" is "Mummy". There is a slight
difference in meaning, which goes for German as well as for English.)
Disclaimer: I do not have a sound board, so I'm just guessing at what
the game said based on what people have written.
Who says games don't teach you anything? :-)
--
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott
Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@uk.ac.hw.cee
UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
None of ya Bizness
$mmo...@staff.tc.umn.edu ("None of ya Bizness") writes:
$: In article <BwDr1...@iat.holonet.net> jwi...@iat.holonet.net (Jay Wilbur) writes:
$: $IMHO, the quality of the game is directly related to the amount of money
$: $made. You are not suggesting that most people are stupid and will by any
$: $trash that hits the streets are you?
$:
$: Yes.
$:
$: If you are I must differ with that
$: $opinion. I feel that most people are smart and will buy things only if
$: $they feel what is being purchased is a quality product.
$:
$: Not if shitty product is hyped enough.
$
$What hype? We developed the software and gave the first episode away for
$free so everyone could play it and figure out if it was worth their hard
$earned money. The decision is made after the user has played the game,
$not read an ad and seen a box.
Fellas, fellas!!! I wasn't talking about Wolf3d in particular! I
think Wolf3d is a pretty cool game, for being shareware, but I think
Commander Keen is that much cooler. I'm into Super Mario type games,
and Wolf3d just doesn't do it for me. People will run out and buy
shit if the people making it run monster ads without trying before you
buy. I've been a victim at that many times.
$: BTW I'm a part of what seems like the minority here, those who happen
$: to like the Commander Keen series and could do without the Wolf3d.
$: Keen 4 was the most rawest I'd seen of the Keens, and Keen Dreams is a
$: fave among everybody around here.
$:
$: But I'll be patient though. This phase'll pass, and once it does
$: Commander Keen shall rule once again.
$
$You never know. :)
$
I'm sure as hell hopin so.
Malcolm
--
Malcolm Diallo Moore, CIS-Univ. of Minn. mmo...@staff.tc.umn.edu
moor...@student.tc.umn.edu
"Arresk the Presidink!" mal...@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
-- Popeye the Intelligent Hoodlum
James Hague
>
>Actually making a living was a concern, but not as big (nor has it grown)
>as making good games that we enjoy. The fact that our income has rose is
>nothing but a side effect.
>
>to play! The only factor that influences the decision on what games we
>produce is the Id coolness factor.
>
>we want the game. The money is a plesant side-effect.
No matter what anyone thinks of Castle Wolfenstein 3-D (and I unfortunately
can't get into it at all, though I am a rabid action game fan--no offense)
there is _no way_ they complain about what Id is doing if the company
is indeed based on the above principles.
Compared to the Amiga or video game markets, there are pitiful few
companies doing the action game thing for PC clones. Right now, Id
is at the top of the heap and competitors are (unfortunately) scarce.
I think much of the unfounded animosity toward Id is simply frustration
over the lack of other forms of action games. Just think about all
the arcade games available for, say, the C-64. Then look at the PC.
Things are just getting started--Keen and Wolf are only two ideas
in a vast pool of potential.
--
James Hague
exu...@exu.ericsson.se
Hunting the Snark
In article <1d54r0...@agate.berkeley.edu>, be...@ocf.berkeley.edu (Ben Rudiak-Gould) writes...
>In article <1992Oct28.2...@b11.b11.ingr.com> ro...@kaos.b11.ingr.com writes:
>>>1. "If you don't like the games that you see, start your own
>>> game company. We did."
>>>
>>>2. "This is quite simple: Wolf3d is selling like crazy and
>>> Keen is not. . . . As a business we must keep most of the
>>> people happy. Hence more 3D, dark games."
>>>
>>>In other words: Id's members started Id because they wanted to
>>>make the games they wanted to see. Now, they are deciding their
>>
>> I could guess pretty safely that the
>>founders of ID went into business for the same reason that IBM got
>>into business...to make a profit and a livlihood for themselves.
>>
>>Why else would someone go into business?
>
>That was the point of quote #1 above. Jay says I misquoted him,
>but the intent of his correction was about the same: Id went into
>business because they wanted to make the games that they thought
>should be made. I will admit, though, that making a living was
>probably another concern.
I see ID's position this way: They wrote Wolf because they wanted to see a
game like it, maybe with little or no concern for its marketability, the same
as when they wrote Keen. Now they have a choice between two projects they like;
one, however, is making ten times the money of the other one. Since they can't
do both they pick the one that earns more. This is not a case of "selling out";
which I define as working on something you don't like just for the money.
You have somehow concluded that points 1 and 2 above are contradictory; they
are not. Id did not see any games like Wolfenstein, they wanted a game like
wolfenstein, so they wrote it. Is it a sell out because it just happened that
thousands of other people wanted to play a game like Wolf and bought it?
Now if Id were to come out with a King's Quest clone (for example) only because
they think there is a big market for it, yet they hate producing such a
product, then they would be "selling out". Or if they continue to churn out
Wolf clones long after they tire of it. But as long they continue to produce
for their own enjoyment (even if that coincides with market demand)
[and BTW, Jay has said that Keen was starting to get stale to them] then they
are not selling out.
Sm
Jay Wilbur
:
: *begin whine mode*
:
: Jaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy.....
:
: You keep talking about DOOM, You gave us a teaser of the plotline making
: us all squirm in our seats in anticipation.....
:
: But . . . uh . . . *pleads* . . . when is this thing coming out? And will
: there be a shareware "teaser" like on Wolf3d?
:
: (and if you answered those questions and I missed them, you can thwap me
: with a wet carp).
I'll post a press release later today.
Jeremy Reimer
>
> >
> >We make the games that we want to play. To answer your question: becuase
> >we want the game. The money is a plesant side-effect.
>
> No matter what anyone thinks of Castle Wolfenstein 3-D (and I unfortunately
> can't get into it at all, though I am a rabid action game fan--no offense)
> there is _no way_ they complain about what Id is doing if the company
> is indeed based on the above principles.
>
> Compared to the Amiga or video game markets, there are pitiful few
> companies doing the action game thing for PC clones. Right now, Id
> is at the top of the heap and competitors are (unfortunately) scarce.
> I think much of the unfounded animosity toward Id is simply frustration
> over the lack of other forms of action games. Just think about all
> the arcade games available for, say, the C-64. Then look at the PC.
> Things are just getting started--Keen and Wolf are only two ideas
> in a vast pool of potential.
>
> --
> James Hague
> exu...@exu.ericsson.se
You're forgetting the Bitmap Brothers-- both Speedball II and Gods are
excellent examples of what can be done with the PC platform if you put a
little effort into it, in terms of raw arcade action (with a little strategy
thrown in) Sure beats any C64 game I ever played!
From what I hear, though, DOOM will probably put Id way, WAAY on top again...
--
Jeremy_Reimer@ |"It turned out, as N-Man discovered later, that the black
mindlink.bc.ca | boat hadn't been after him at all. It was full of riotous,
---------------| unemployed former James Bond villains enraged at the fall
aka THE JAGUAR!| of Communism in the Soviet Union."
---------------|
Stealth Sig#69 | --From "N-Man #3: N-Man on Holiday"
Ron Dippold
>Well I figure it's "My life!". Mien Lieben... my VERY limited German
>recognizes Mien and I guess Lieben is something to do with Living, as
>in Liebensraum (living space or whatever...something Hitler used to say)
>I don't know what "Tufuffle!" means or "Gutentag!" however...
"Schufstaffel" - SS!
"Gutentag" - Good day!
--
Children are unpredictable. You never know what inconsistency they're going
to catch you in next. -- Franklin Jones
Ron Dippold
some of the meanings aren't quite right (Guten Tag is good day), but
it's enough to get you close.
Here's the list of what everone is saying:
Guards: Actung Attntion
SS: Schutzstaffel Elite Guard
Mein Leben My Life
Officers: Spion Spy
Nein, so was Well, I never
Hans: Guten Tag Good Morning
Mutti Mommy
Hitler: Tot hund Dead Dog
Die, Allied
schweinhund Die, Allied pigdog
Scheist S**t
Eva, auf
wiedersehen Eva, good-bye
Dr. Schabbs: Mein Gott
in Himmel MY God in heaven
Otto: Eine Kleine
Amerikaner A Little American
Donner wetter Good Heavens
Gretel: Kein Durchgang No Trespassing
Mein busse My repentance
General
Fettgesicht: Erauben Sie
bitte Allow me, please
Roseknospe Rosebud
--
May your wife be a witch who takes after her mother, and may you all live
together in a one-room house.
Ron Dippold
>Compared to the Amiga or video game markets, there are pitiful few
>companies doing the action game thing for PC clones. Right now, Id
>is at the top of the heap and competitors are (unfortunately) scarce.
>I think much of the unfounded animosity toward Id is simply frustration
>over the lack of other forms of action games. Just think about all
>the arcade games available for, say, the C-64. Then look at the PC.
>Things are just getting started--Keen and Wolf are only two ideas
>in a vast pool of potential.
Have you checked out stuff from the Bitmap Brothers? Magic Pocket,
Gods, etc.? Wild!
--
What's good for Ugoose is good for Uganda.
Ron Dippold
> "Guten Tag" is "Good Day", I'm pretty certain. I think that
>"Tufuffle" is German for "Hi! I'm an AMWAY salesman." :)
You've just added a whole new level of terror to the game!
--
I'll wear any color so long as it's black.
Ron Dippold
>You're forgetting the Bitmap Brothers-- both Speedball II and Gods are
>excellent examples of what can be done with the PC platform if you put a
>little effort into it, in terms of raw arcade action (with a little strategy
>thrown in) Sure beats any C64 game I ever played!
>From what I hear, though, DOOM will probably put Id way, WAAY on top again...
In the mean time, I have just been incredibly hooked on Wizkid - sort
of a Wizball sequel. It's an awesome conversion from the Amiga.
Massive arcade action, and even a bit of thinking.
--
If you turn on the light quickly enough you can see what the dark looks like.
Gerhard den Hollander
any cheating info
(GOD keys etc..)
is welcome