Road to Moscow review
Eddy Sterckx
As some of you might know I was recently offered the beta 1.10 version of
this Loch Ness monster of wargaming. I promised a review so here goes :
Game Concept :
Detailed geographical map of Europe where units of Brigade/Div/Army level
move and fight - all in real-time. You, as supreme commander literally
"draw" up the battle plan(s) which get executed by your AI commanders
whom you can shuffle around. A very detailed OOB + TOE and a nice choice
of scenario's complete the package.
Concept execution and detail :
The most interesting concept is the drawing board - you literally select
a portion of the battle field - which gets copied to the drawing screen
where you "draw" up a battle plan. You can set primary and secondary
objectives and tell your units where to move to. You then approve the
"plan" which gets executed by the AI.
This all sounds pretty nifty - though we could do without the separate
drawing board - the problem is : it doesn't work.
The reason it doesn't is because you can draw up a plan that looks good
on paper only to have it botched up by the incompetent own unit AI -
sounds like real life (tm) you'd think - not really - especially playing
as the Germans you'd expect the battlefield commanders to be smarter than
the guy sitting in Berlin but they aren't and that's where frustration
sets in because you lack the means to control the action.
Example : let's suppose you spot a Russian infantry army with their left
flank secured by mountains/rough and a refused - but open - right flank.
Let's say you have a German inf div, a mountain div and a panzer div at
your disposal - what plan do you come up with ? I want the inf div to
move up, make contact, make probing attacks but nothing serious and act
as a screen for the panzer division to swing behind and move behind the
Ruskies right flank while the mountain div infiltrates their supposedly
secure left flank. A minimum amount of coordination should ensure succes
in rounding up the Russians. Let's say you draw up this fail-safe plan in
RtM, you sit back smugly and watch it all go terribly wrong as soon as
you turn things over to the AI. The inf div will slam hard into the
prepared Russian positions and take numerous casualties, the mountain
unit will get lost in the mountains and the panzer division will arive in
the Russians rear and decide to await further orders amidst the Russian
rear echelon units.
So where did it go wrong ?
Well, for one thing this game oozes ambition - the entire Russian front -
in realtime - in 1997-1999 on pentium 2/300 machines with 1 MB graphic
cards .. Technically it couldn't have worked on the machines available
back then - my 2.8 gig / GeForce 4 machine has barely enough horsepower
to run it. No wonder it was reported to run in sub-realtime with every 5
minutes of game time taking 15 minutes of computer time - this would mean
a 12 year continuous runtime for the entire campaign. Madness.
The concept of "drawing" up a masterplan sounds good on paper - but the
own unit AI is so incompetent in carrying out your plan that this game
really needs more player control over the battlefield - there isn't,
resulting in player frustration. You feel like the guy sitting in his
Berlin bunker in 1945 moving around armies and nothing happens the way he
plans it.
The reason it survived so long as a "game in progress" - and a financial
sink-hole - is that if you look at a screenshot and read the manual /
concept docs the shear ambition takes your breath away. On paper it's the
game I want to play. It's a game practically all grognards would want to
play so it got financed way too long because it's so beautiful in concept
people wanted it to work despite the technical and conceptual hurdles.
Could it have worked ?
Well, if they had limited the game to let's say a "Kanev Bridge", added
more own-unit controll and had put a lot more effort in the AI they could
have ended up with an "Airborne Assault". And this is really the point I
wanted to make : the RtM game concept is - apart from the over-ambitious
scope - virtually identical to the Airborne Assault series games. RtM is
dead and buried, but if you really want to see that inf div make a
probing attack to fix the Russians in place, the mountain div sneaking up
on them while the Panzer div swings into their rear you'll have to wait
till the guys at Panther Games turn east.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Gizmo
reviews in magazines ;)
I didn't have stomach for this monster and now I see that my computer didn't
have horse power of 100 Crays ;) to handle it then.
Do you think that if Panther Games make strategic game ala Airborne Assaul
it would consume too much of a power of today's PC's?
Well, maybe it's not even possible because it would be possible if people
have 10 hands like lobsters :)
That's why, TOAW still shines with many of it's flaws. If TOAW could have
been improved with aspect of production, reconstruction code - and I mean
real production code - well something like War in the Pacifik (I still
didn't tried it). Now, there is a room for future wargames. East Front or
whole WW2 modeled with strategic/operational aspect - there is room for much
more games like this.
Hearts of Iron was good game but had it's flaws, and I see that with Hearts
of Iron 2 they are trying to improve game. One of major flaw was their
concept of moving armies through provinces, they used basically engine of
Europa Universalis and there you had knights and cannons etc... and it was
good engine for medieval period but it was not so suitable for WW2 with
Siberian provinces where you must travel one year or something through this
big province. It was not nececary that hex system in EU/HoI would make
things better but... That's why Victoria made smaller provinces so battles
of XIX century could have been simulated... eh...
Mario
Eddy Sterckx
news:ch1ghp$qf2$1...@sunce.iskon.hr:
> Great review Eddy, much appreciated, and very humorous, you could
> write reviews in magazines ;)
I wouldn't want to be a reviewer for a magazine that would stoop so low
as to hire me :)
> I didn't have stomach for this monster and now I see that my computer
> didn't have horse power of 100 Crays ;) to handle it then.
Well, it's playable (from a technical pov) on current machines - and it
won't muck up your computer so have a go.
> Do you think that if Panther Games make strategic game ala Airborne
> Assaul it would consume too much of a power of today's PC's?
Not really - you can compensate for the increase in units by less
detailed pathfinding on a less detailed map - on the strategic level
there are no minor roads/tracks, and x different terrain types to worry
about. Panther Games don't have the resources to write such an engine,
but others might think about it.
> Well, maybe it's not even possible because it would be possible if
> people have 10 hands like lobsters :)
From a conceptual pov it's entirely possible - the Airborne Assault games
have a pretty good friendly AI, so instead of ordering around hundreds of
units you just direct a few dozen HQ units. It's not fiction, you can
play a game of HTTR by just ordering around a couple of regimental HQ
units and get moderate results. You can go down the command chain and
give specific orders to individual units - to achieve better results -
but the point is that you don't have to and you can pretty much play the
divisional general in these games.
> That's why, TOAW still shines with many of it's flaws. If TOAW could
> have been improved with aspect of production, reconstruction code -
> and I mean real production code - well something like War in the
> Pacifik (I still didn't tried it). Now, there is a room for future
> wargames. East Front or whole WW2 modeled with strategic/operational
> aspect - there is room for much more games like this.
See, this is the dream that kept the financing the RtM sinkhole :)
> Hearts of Iron was good game but had it's flaws,
Platinum edition went gold yesterday - out on september 21st - includes
all the enhancements and additions - but I'd be stupid to ... nah, I'll
probably buy it anyway when I find it in a bin next summer.
> and I see that with
> Hearts of Iron 2 they are trying to improve game.
I'm rooting for more diplomacy and more automated production/tech
searches - less bookkeeping, more strategy.
> One of major flaw
> was their concept of moving armies through provinces, they used
> basically engine of Europa Universalis and there you had knights and
> cannons etc... and it was good engine for medieval period but it was
> not so suitable for WW2 with Siberian provinces where you must travel
> one year or something through this big province. It was not nececary
> that hex system in EU/HoI would make things better but... That's why
> Victoria made smaller provinces so battles of XIX century could have
> been simulated... eh...
If you make your areas small enough you'll end up with a continuous map -
back to RtM dreams :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Gizmo
> as to hire me :)
I see that you are also fan of Grucho Marx like me :o)))) HE IS KING!!
I think that he is one of best comedian ever god lecture how good movies are
made...Do you know when he started making movies, technology was so
primitive that you needed to put paper in the water or there would be lot's
of noise on microphones (1920's)
> > I didn't have stomach for this monster and now I see that my computer
> > didn't have horse power of 100 Crays ;) to handle it then.
>
> Well, it's playable (from a technical pov) on current machines - and it
> won't muck up your computer so have a go.
Hehe, no thanks, don't want to feel like rat in a Berlin bunker in 1945. and
see how all plans fall apart. Funck! Guderian! Schorner! Where are this
counterattack on Russian flank? ;)
> > Do you think that if Panther Games make strategic game ala Airborne
> > Assaul it would consume too much of a power of today's PC's?
>
> Not really - you can compensate for the increase in units by less
> detailed pathfinding on a less detailed map - on the strategic level
> there are no minor roads/tracks, and x different terrain types to worry
> about. Panther Games don't have the resources to write such an engine,
> but others might think about it.
Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money on
Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for armed forces ;)
Just jokin'. Well, we'll see.
> > Well, maybe it's not even possible because it would be possible if
> > people have 10 hands like lobsters :)
>
> From a conceptual pov it's entirely possible - the Airborne Assault games
> have a pretty good friendly AI, so instead of ordering around hundreds of
> units you just direct a few dozen HQ units. It's not fiction, you can
> play a game of HTTR by just ordering around a couple of regimental HQ
> units and get moderate results. You can go down the command chain and
> give specific orders to individual units - to achieve better results -
> but the point is that you don't have to and you can pretty much play the
> divisional general in these games.
Interesting, could be possible. I'll buy their next game, that's for sure.
Still not sure for War in the Pacific, UV didn't captured my attention but
whole Pacific War, I could bring glory to japanese emperor (fat chance)
> > That's why, TOAW still shines with many of it's flaws. If TOAW could
> > have been improved with aspect of production, reconstruction code -
> > and I mean real production code - well something like War in the
> > Pacifik (I still didn't tried it). Now, there is a room for future
> > wargames. East Front or whole WW2 modeled with strategic/operational
> > aspect - there is room for much more games like this.
>
> See, this is the dream that kept the financing the RtM sinkhole :)
Well, in the future there is possibility of new designs and improvements.
It's not final word.
> > Hearts of Iron was good game but had it's flaws,
>
> Platinum edition went gold yesterday - out on september 21st - includes
> all the enhancements and additions - but I'd be stupid to ... nah, I'll
> probably buy it anyway when I find it in a bin next summer.
I had fun with Hearts of Iron, but only because it was pure SF, capturing
Brasil etc...It had some RPG feel also with generals but experience system
was flawed. AAR's were great :)
> > and I see that with
> > Hearts of Iron 2 they are trying to improve game.
>
> I'm rooting for more diplomacy and more automated production/tech
> searches - less bookkeeping, more strategy.
As I see your wishes will come true, I will buy HoI 2 same day when it come
out. I am sure that it will be fun.
> > One of major flaw
> > was their concept of moving armies through provinces, they used
> > basically engine of Europa Universalis and there you had knights and
> > cannons etc... and it was good engine for medieval period but it was
> > not so suitable for WW2 with Siberian provinces where you must travel
> > one year or something through this big province. It was not nececary
> > that hex system in EU/HoI would make things better but... That's why
> > Victoria made smaller provinces so battles of XIX century could have
> > been simulated... eh...
>
> If you make your areas small enough you'll end up with a continuous map -
> back to RtM dreams :)
Well, I am fan of turn based games also, and hex system is not just matter
of the past. It's all about how well game is designed. I don't see that only
one concept have a future.
Mario
Eddy Sterckx
news:ch1k7r$tb5$1...@sunce.iskon.hr:
>> I wouldn't want to be a reviewer for a magazine that would stoop so
>> low as to hire me :)
>
> I see that you are also fan of Grucho Marx like me :o)))) HE IS KING!!
Sure is, of Freedonia :)
> Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money on
> Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for armed
> forces ;)
12% alcohol - why do they give the troops only light beer ? :)
Seriously : defence departments the world over are keeping a keen eye on
the developments in the wargame community - the newest game-designs can
rival their dedicated heavy-duty simulators and act as training tools.
Major H.'s TacOps is the best known of the bunch, but there are others.
> Well, I am fan of turn based games also, and hex system is not just
> matter of the past. It's all about how well game is designed. I don't
> see that only one concept have a future.
Certainly not - the increase in computing power just makes it possible to
get away from the hexagonal designs more easily, but that doesn't mean no
good hex games are getting made or that their days are numbered.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
eddys...@hotmail.com says...
> > Well, maybe it's not even possible because it would be possible if
> > people have 10 hands like lobsters :)
>
> From a conceptual pov it's entirely possible - the Airborne Assault games
> have a pretty good friendly AI, so instead of ordering around hundreds of
> units you just direct a few dozen HQ units. It's not fiction, you can
> play a game of HTTR by just ordering around a couple of regimental HQ
> units and get moderate results. You can go down the command chain and
> give specific orders to individual units - to achieve better results -
> but the point is that you don't have to and you can pretty much play the
> divisional general in these games.
What continues to knock me out about HTTR is how brilliantly the design
of the game channels a player into thinking about management of sub-
units precisely as a divisional general might - in a way that almost no
other game does.
For instance, as Mr. Sterckx points out, you *can* better the
performance of a specific battalion by taking a personal, human hand in
fighting the unit - just as General Gavin himself might have obtained
better performance from the 2/505th by leading them personally. But
mitigating this ability is the fact that there are a great many
battalions to manage, your opponent is sitting at his console cheerfully
plotting your demise, and the clock (even on slow setting) marches
forward.
My point is that one ends up very carefully picking the fights to
micromanage on a personal basis, because you (or your trusted staff
officers) can't be everywhere at once[0]. Indeed, too much
micromanagement against a human opponent can sometimes be lethal,
because the TacAI is reasonably smart, and if your adversary is putting
his effort into reacting quickly to intelligence (and "hunches") *using*
the TacAI to manage his subunits - and putting his human brain to work
swiftly processing the "big picture - " well, he might end up hastily
slamming a Kampfgruppe Oelkers into the flank of your carefully-
micromanaged position ... and that's that.[1]
This makes for amazingly realistic and detailed play. You end up
needing situational awareness of the big picture at all times, but it's
possible to focus on a few key actions that you feel the campaign might
hinge on and put extra resources at crucial spots on the battlefield.
Amazing.
The Big Enchilada of this design is the TacAI routines themselves.
Either they're trustworthy - and this design works - or they're
worthless - and this design fails. If HTTR's subunit AI didn't work
(read: Only worked as well as CLOSE COMBAT's), it would have been a
run-of-the-mill game from the get-go, instead of the coolest thing since
STEEL PANTHERS.
[0] Wasn't there a game - an ACW game, maybe - that kept track of what
unit a player was "with" and based some micromangement abilities on
that? Or am I just dreaming?
[1] An interesting experiment might be to take two veteran gamers with
a balanced scenario (IE, the one where a British armored division goes
head-to-head with a Panzerdivision), but have one of them issue orders
*strictly* through the battalion HQs, and the other directly micromanage
each individual unit counter. Perhaps we get into a click & twitch
argument at some point, but my experience - I play against a couple of
pathological micromanagers - has been that reacting quickly to the big
picture trumps the guy who's missing what's going on at Honinghutje
because he's carefully preparing his "perfect" defense down by the
Reichswald. Generally speaking, I bounce these guys like basketballs.
<shrug>
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Coffins and puppetheads. People walking through all these
flag-draped coffins laughing, beating their drums, ululating.
I can hardly believe what I?m watching."
- Charles Johnson, on NYC protests
Giftzwerg
george.w...@microsoft.com says...
> Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money on
> Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for armed forces ;)
12% alcohol? In *beer*?
What do these blokes do when they want to quaff some of the hard stuff?
Hang an IV bottle?
Gizmo
> > I see that you are also fan of Grucho Marx like me :o)))) HE IS KING!!
>
> Sure is, of Freedonia :)
Well, I be damned - that scene when he is seeing himself in a "mirror" is
one of best ever made :) Duck Soup movie I think.
> > Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money on
> > Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for armed
> > forces ;)
>
> 12% alcohol - why do they give the troops only light beer ? :)
Well, to not invade Borneo, New Zealand, Hawai etc... ;)
> Seriously : defence departments the world over are keeping a keen eye on
> the developments in the wargame community - the newest game-designs can
> rival their dedicated heavy-duty simulators and act as training tools.
> Major H.'s TacOps is the best known of the bunch, but there are >others.
This is really great and I congratulate all publishers on such a deals. It's
just tells how serious this fun bussines is ;)
> > Well, I am fan of turn based games also, and hex system is not just
> > matter of the past. It's all about how well game is designed. I don't
> > see that only one concept have a future.
>
> Certainly not - the increase in computing power just makes it possible to
> get away from the hexagonal designs more easily, but that doesn't mean no
> good hex games are getting made or that their days are numbered.
>
> Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
Haha... Yes...
It's good joke also, when women have found him with another in a bed - and
he said - do you believe me or your eyes ;)
Mario
Eddy Sterckx
news:MPG.1b9e2f7e5...@news-east.giganews.com:
> In article <ch1k7r$tb5$1...@sunce.iskon.hr>,
> george.w...@microsoft.com says...
>
>> Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money on
>> Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for armed
>> forces ;)
>
> 12% alcohol? In *beer*?
12 % is where the natural fermentation stops - there are beers that have
more but that is through adding pure alcohol.
The lightest beer I drink is Jupiler at 5.2% - Regular triple
fermentation beers usually start at 8 % and go up to 11% - that's stuff
you can order anywhere - girly beer even. Special beers like Eku or
Oerbier, Delirium Tremens (sic) etc. start at 12% and go above and beyond
but you have to go to a certain kind of watering hole - student or biker
- to order those.
One of the things that shocks Americans over here is the fact that
teenagers can order a beer ... while sitting with their parents.
> What do these blokes do when they want to quaff some of the hard
> stuff?
>
> Hang an IV bottle?
No, drink straight from the tap - not recommended - it ruins your
sinusses.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Eddy Sterckx
news:ch1okp$1eh$1...@sunce.iskon.hr:
>
>> > I see that you are also fan of Grucho Marx like me :o)))) HE IS
>> > KING!!
>>
>> Sure is, of Freedonia :)
>
> Well, I be damned - that scene when he is seeing himself in a "mirror"
> is one of best ever made :) Duck Soup movie I think.
Correct - best Marx brothers movie.
>
>> > Interesting. Maybe Australian goverment decide to spend more money
>> > on Panther Games and less money on beer with 12% of alcohol for
>> > armed forces ;)
>>
>> 12% alcohol - why do they give the troops only light beer ? :)
>
> Well, to not invade Borneo, New Zealand, Hawai etc... ;)
Well, it would explain the ramblings of fellow forumite Golf33 ...(hi
Steve)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Arjuna
You've been watching too many of those Marx Bros movies mate. :)
Just for the record Light beer in Australia has around 2.5% alcohol and full
strength around 4.5 to 5.0%. It does taste much better than the average beer
we got on our recent visit to the US. But then that's just my bias/taste.
:)
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
"Eddy Sterckx" <eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns955690F27817Eed...@195.238.0.34...
Gizmo
> 12% alcohol? In *beer*?
>
> What do these blokes do when they want to quaff some of the hard stuff?
>
> Hang an IV bottle?
Dunno. Maybe they grab some after shave ;)
Mario
Eddy Sterckx
news:41347766$1...@news.comindico.com.au:
> Eddy,
>
> You've been watching too many of those Marx Bros movies mate. :)
not really - it's just that only the really wacky ones seem to get stuck
in my mind - I wonder why :)
> Just for the record Light beer in Australia has around 2.5% alcohol
> and full strength around 4.5 to 5.0%. It does taste much better than
> the average beer we got on our recent visit to the US. But then that's
> just my bias/taste.
After my recent run-in with Marc Schwanebeck on the quality of German
beer I don't even dare express my opinion on what is tasty or not :)
You'll have to come over one day and we'll do some serious comparative
testing :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
Frank E
>
>strength around 4.5 to 5.0%. It does taste much better than the average beer
>we got on our recent visit to the US. But then that's just my bias/taste.
"American Beer is like having sex in a canoe,
fucking close to water!"
Don't recall who said that but it's fitting. <g>
Rgds, Frank
jari k
Monty Python.
--
jari k
remove unnecessary parts of address to make it work
Peter Fisla
"Eddy Sterckx" <eddys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns955669A28B92Aed...@195.238.0.34...
Excellent review Eddy, I'm not much into western front so I'm waiting for Panther Games
to turn east then I will be first one to buy :)
Peter
Arjuna
"Frank E" <fakea...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v=M0Qb19iM9SzQC...@4ax.com...
Arjuna
We're heading South first.Our next release is Conquest of the Aegean (
COTA ). Check out the COTA forum on Matrix. This will cover the German
invasion of Greece in 1941, including scenarios from the Italian/Greek
confrontation along the Albanian border, the subsequent airborne invasion of
Crete and hypothetical invasions of Malta.
Main new feature is a Campaign mode, plus we're adding Exit tasks, extra
altitude layers, new Delay code and hopefully mixed mode movement, which I
hope to start this month - see the forum for more details.
Suffice to say that there will be plenty of armoured mobile action as the
Germans try and bust through the ANZAC defence lines and blitz there way
south to Athens and plenty of airborne action as the 7th Fleiger Div tries
to seize Crete. The Malta scenarios cover two proposed operations ( one in
41 and another in 42 ) and these will see Italian/German airborne and
seaborne forces trying to storm the bastion of the central med. Good stuff.
--
Dave O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
"Peter Fisla" <pfi...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:6Y6Zc.18$RY...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Don Waugaman
Giftzwerg <giftzw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[0] Wasn't there a game - an ACW game, maybe - that kept track of what
>unit a player was "with" and based some micromangement abilities on
>that? Or am I just dreaming?
Sounds like the mechanic of the SSI/G[1] Decisive Battles of the American
Civil War series, where your control over units was related to your
distance from them - and you could take over a unit and issue it orders
directly but your "commaand radius" (??) would then drop. Good C&C
simulator for large-scale tactical combat of that era.
[1] I always confuse these two - but I'm sure it was one of 'em.
--
- Don Waugaman (d...@cs.arizona.edu) O- _|_ Will pun
Web Page: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/dpw/ | for food
In the Sonoran Desert, where we say: "It's a dry heat..." | <><
Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
Robespierre.
Eddy Sterckx
news:0squk0dh3v4igjlh1...@4ax.com:
> How is Grouchy these days?
Haven't heard from him in a while - might mail him because we were planning
to meet ftf at Spiel '04 in Essen-Germany.
<curious mode>
Why do you want to know and why don't you drop him a mail ?
</curious mode>
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx