Mom 1.3 - My first impressions
Jim Vieira
playing (now about 11pm). As I was one of the many people to bash on the
lateness of the patch, I feel I must give credit where credit is due.
I want to first point out that I have only played one game so far, and it
is nowhere near over. These are early impressions.
I guess I should tell you about the game to make your own opinions. I
started out large/hard/4 opponent with a custom 2life/5chaos/1sorcery
and I believe Alchemy and Artificer. Using High Men. About 20 turns in
I met up with Ariel, and I am now about 200 or so turns in, and have been
at war with her all that time. She immediatley started sending wave
after wave of spearmen and swordsmen at my capitol. Luckily I have been
able to hold her off, as I had a large number of pikeman going early on
(after reading messages her from others who said 'defend your cities!!').
I have been unable to make peace with her for anything, but I have been
winning the war. It is not at all like before. It has taken a _VERY_
long time to wear her down and actually take a couple of cities from
her. Early on it looked like she was going to get the better of me, but
I managed to get Paladins out.
On a side note, Paladins are defintely more vulnerable under the 1.3
patch. Even now Ariel is still sending swordsmen and halbierders with
like 5 swords or something, and they do actually damage the Paladins. In
situations where before I would have need 4-5 Paladins to do a job, it
seems like I am needing 6-7 or more sometimes. Many of them have died
already. I find this to be a very refreshing change. I really like
playing the High Men, but the Paladins made the game so very very easy.
Also, I noticed that there were many many ruins on the map I am currently
playing, but it could just be lucky random setup or something. Also
wandering monsters are frequently attacking my cities.
So all in all I would say the patch is excellent based on my current
game. Playing on hard, I didn't notice a really big computer boosted
production bonus, and I met Ariel very early on. She has had a bigger
army all the time, but it was mostly swordsmen/spearmen. It reminded me
of Moo in a way. Me crushing her puny troops with a higher quality troop.
That's my 2 cents. It is definitely harder, and I haven't had a single
bug or lockup. As for whether the computer is using better strategy is
hard to say. I have a bad feeling the AI may just be much more
aggressive, making for a tougher game, but not really making the computer
opponent smarter. The 3 cities I have taken from Ariel were very poorly
setup as far as building choices (no granarys/marketplaces, etc). But I
did notice that Ariel was upgrading her troops very often. The swordsmen
and spearmen were quickly replaced by Horsebowmen and Halberdiers.
Bigtime kudos to SimTex/Microprose for coming through with a nice patch.
Even if the computer doesn't turn out to play smarter, this is now my
kind of game. Constant war. Trying to grow but having to keep putting
some of your resources into troop building, slowing your growth. I am
looking forward to (hopefully) getting some bigtime naval fleets going
now. I really think the game will take a much longer time to beat now.
--
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
|Jim Vieira | "Admit it, at this moment I am more powerful than |
|jay...@earth.execpc.com| you ever were, I AM Fist of the North Star!!" |
| | -Raul the Conquerer |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
George Lin
: Well, I downloaded the 1.3 patch for Mom about 6pm and just got done
: lateness of the patch, I feel I must give credit where credit is due.
: I guess I should tell you about the game to make your own opinions. I
: started out large/hard/4 opponent with a custom 2life/5chaos/1sorcery
: and I believe Alchemy and Artificer. Using High Men. About 20 turns in
: I met up with Ariel, and I am now about 200 or so turns in, and have been
: at war with her all that time. She immediatley started sending wave
: after wave of spearmen and swordsmen at my capitol. Luckily I have been
: able to hold her off, as I had a large number of pikeman going early on
: (after reading messages her from others who said 'defend your cities!!').
I started with large/impossible/4 with all life and used the old combination
of Paladin/Stream of Life in City/Max Tax that used to ALWAYS win in 1.2.
Anyway, I did NOT win, more details below. I was luckly stuck on an island
and didn't encounter any wizard until I started venturing out. One odd
thing I encountered was a neutral city fell under my power via a diplomatic
marriage, but it was halfway across the world in an area I didn't explore.
: On a side note, Paladins are defintely more vulnerable under the 1.3
: patch. Even now Ariel is still sending swordsmen and halbierders with
Sometimes, I wonder if SimTex simply took out their First Strike or Armor
Piercing capabilities. In one instance, I don't think I should've been
taking damage from a Guardian Spirit, it's got 12 attacks but it's only
1 figure while my elite paladin, 4 figures, were taking some damage from
them.
Paladins seems to still work well against Doom Bats and Dragon Turtles,
taking little to no damage from them.
: playing, but it could just be lucky random setup or something. Also
: wandering monsters are frequently attacking my cities.
I'm going to try "Medium" difficulty setting because this is the setting
that Alan claimed the computer does not cheat on. One thing that's really
discouraging is that at the impossible settings, I was trying to wear
down a wizard's capital with a group of paladins, and it was defended
by a group of 9 colossus! I managed to wear it down to 4, but by the
time when my other group of 3 paladins arrived in about 5 turns, the
wizard managed to summon 5 more replacement colossus. I tried to have
2 groups ready this time by the capital, but the wizard cast "Spell of
Mastery", which finished on the very next turn! When I click on the
wizard's portraits, they all maxed out at 30,000 gold and 10,000+ mana.
It's like you're trying to fight with a knife while the enemy is in
a tank or something.
: game. Playing on hard, I didn't notice a really big computer boosted
: production bonus, and I met Ariel very early on. She has had a bigger
Try impossible.
: That's my 2 cents. It is definitely harder, and I haven't had a single
: bug or lockup. As for whether the computer is using better strategy is
:( Bug Alert!
I noticed two minor bugs, well sort of. After a wizard cast "Wind Mastery",
my ships were moving at 1/2 speed, which is correct, but my flying units
were moving at full speed, which is incorrect.
Another bug is that I summon Torin, and after a few turns (don't remember),
he was suddenly water walking and flying. I checked him out and for some
reason, he was holding a sword in the amulet slot. This sword does not
have a description, and I couldn't put it back to any slots after I take
it out.
: hard to say. I have a bad feeling the AI may just be much more
: aggressive, making for a tougher game, but not really making the computer
: opponent smarter. The 3 cities I have taken from Ariel were very poorly
: setup as far as building choices (no granarys/marketplaces, etc). But I
Most of the computer cities I encountered were fully build, and most of the
capitols had 9 of the biggest monsters they could summon. One thing I
noticed is that after casting Awareness, the Myrror World was also fully
populated by 3 computer wizards. In 1.2, the Archinus (sp?) wizards
rarely cross to the other side let alone populate.
: Bigtime kudos to SimTex/Microprose for coming through with a nice patch.
: Even if the computer doesn't turn out to play smarter, this is now my
: kind of game. Constant war. Trying to grow but having to keep putting
Yes it's a good patch. I'm sure I'll be bored with it in a few weeks
and buy GalCiv and install OS/2 on a machine.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Lin Internet
Dun & Bradstreet --------
899 Eaton Ave. a4...@lehigh.edu
Bethlehem, PA 18025 gc...@eecs.lehigh.edu
(610) 882-6140 li...@dbisna.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J Mclaughlin
: and didn't encounter any wizard until I started venturing out. One odd
: thing I encountered was a neutral city fell under my power via a diplomatic
: marriage, but it was halfway across the world in an area I didn't explore.
I had a neutral city fall under my power via a diplomatic marriage in
v1.2 once. I don't think it happens often.
--
John McLaughlin jmcl...@uoguelph.ca
j.mcla...@genie.geis.com
Nai-Chi Lee
George Lin <a4...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>I started with large/impossible/4 with all life and used the old combination
>of Paladin/Stream of Life in City/Max Tax that used to ALWAYS win in 1.2.
>Anyway, I did NOT win, more details below. I was luckly stuck on an island
>and didn't encounter any wizard until I started venturing out.
I played a medium/hard/3 game last night, with 11 life book as halflings.
I was also "luckly stuck" on an island. By the time I met other wizards,
they were all two to three times more powerful than me according to the
power chart. But so far the game is still quite easy, and I have yet to
find any evidence for the "improved AI". With just one hero (Torin) and
a few slingers units, I wiped out the entire kindom of Sss'sa, who used to
be the top-guy.
Some positive notes:
- Enemy units know when to flee now (unlike in v1.2 where even settler units
won't run away). I guess this can be classified as "improved AI"?
- After you defeat an enemy wizard, you may discover new technologies from
his home planet... Ooops, wrong game, I mean discover new spells from his
home fortress.
- "Raise Dead" spell works now (so far) and the light/shadow effect for
casting this spell is improved.
- "Resurrection" now comes with a better sound effect.
- I played for three hours without crashing. Then again, it is sad that
this should even be mentioned as a positive note.
Tonight I'm going after the other two wizards and hopely will discover some
higher intelligence in the process...
;-)
--
Nai-Chi
Gregg Murray
It is related to my general midi card... I think. It goes like this.
After about three or four combats, combat will end and the music will
hang on one note and get really loud, then a few seconds later I get a
two second delay where I click on something, there is a two second delay,
and then, finally, it happens. The hard drive does not light up, the
game just chokes for a second, like it's making caclulations or
something. After that, any combats I get into have the units take a full
three seconds before moving and/or attaking. (this can add up to a long
time if you are doing an 8v8 battle.). And they don't make any sound.
This can be fixed by saving, exiting to the main menu, and then
re-loading the game, but it is damn annoying. I've tried turning the
sound off, but that gives me a real live crash, maybe it's the
music..... I have a turtle beach tropez with sbpro emulation. Never had
the problem with my 8 bit soundblaster and sbfm, so I think it's the
midi.
-Gregg
Peter Gunawan
>Some positive notes:
>- Enemy units know when to flee now (unlike in v1.2 where even settler units
> won't run away). I guess this can be classified as "improved AI"?
For me ( master of DEATH ), this is quite annoying because I don't have the
chance to use LIFE DRAIN and create yet another free undead unit. I usually
attack first so the enemy has the chance to flee before I can life-drain them.
>- I played for three hours without crashing. Then again, it is sad that
> this should even be mentioned as a positive note.
I still have the problem with MONSTER.LBX. Last night I use the Necromancer to
shot fantastic enemy unit ( I believe it consists of warbears and sprites ). I
won the war as usual, but just after the report scroll, instead of the animation
of undeads being created, an error message "... in monster.lbx [Entry -22]"
appears. The game droped me back to DOS. Anyone has an explanation what is
happening here ?
Sung Song
file being corrupt at entry 5. Really infuriating. I always used to think
that all the complaints about MOM being buggy was because of poor memory
managers or computer incompatabilities. Now I know that the game is
temperamental and erratic. The problem is though, these bugs seem to
have multiplied with 1.3. I mean, 1.3 is supposed to be the fix-all
patch, right? Then why does it crash now more than before?
Anyway, my question is: If I used the soundfx.lbx file from 1.2, would my
game still be 1.3, and only the sound revert to 1.2? Intuitively, I would
guess that this is the case, but it seems like you can never tell with
Microprose/Simtex programs.
Quite disappointing overall. The patch improves the gameplay, but what
does that matter if you can't even play the game anymore?
sysong
John Amenta
This seemed to only occur when I turned my sound options off. If I kept
them on, everything seemed to work fine.
wjames
Otterboy
I installed the patch and continued a game from a few weeks ago.
It was an Impossible, with 2 opponents and a custom wizard.
I experienced quite a few bugs throughout my 2 1/2 hours of playing.
Mostly sound related, and always from within combat.
I am hoping that these bugs are a result of my using the
saved game from version 1.2, but I wouldn't count on it.
=================================================================
Steve Lang Call me Otterboy
la...@stolaf.edu
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/lang/index.html
Check out the WORSHIP LIST on my home page.
"You're the ignoramus!" - Rubin Farr
"That's not the only thing that's long..."
"What're you looking at? Eat your ice cream!"
-Jimbo, "Zombie Nightmare"
=================================================================
Ronald Watkins
Overall, the new patch makes MoM a much better game. However,
there are still bugs left, which is a little frustrating. So far, it's
crashed on me only once, which is better than 1.2 was; the bugs I've seen
have been mostly annoyance-level.
I can only think of three offhand (haven't played for a couple
days):
After I took out Sss'ra in the most recent game I was playing,
all of his cities became Summoning Circles. Instead of saying "Capital
of Vader" or "Hamlet of BanthaFodder", they became "Summoning
Circle of THX-1138", or something similar. Can you say, "pointer problem?"
I have noted a bug in combat twice that is associated with heroes.
Two times, I have had a hero coming through the ranks, and upon reaching
Grand Lord, became completely incapable of doing damage while attacking!
Attack during defense still works, but initiating a hand-to-hand attack
was basically suicide...neither character *ever* did *any* damage. Upon
reaching the next level, the problem went away again.
Windwalking seems to have an occasional problem, in that when
moving to a destination, the computer gets confused and will sometimes
detach faster-moving windwalkers from the slower-moving units they are
dragging with them. Again, just an annoyance bug.
I've come to the overall conclusion that MoM will *never* be
debugged. It is too large a game for the resources that were devoted to
it, both in terms of programming and in gametesting. I get the impression
that they barely have a handle on what's going on with it...the code must
be a dreadful snarl. I'd suggest to SimTex that they try a slightly
less-ambitious project next time and get it really *tight*.
Nonetheless, it's a darn good game. I recommend it, with the
caveats that you mustn't expect perfection, and that saving often is a
VERY good idea. :) The AI is good enough to be fun, finally, and the
bugs are infrequent enough that the game remains quite playable.
--
Ron Watkins, aka <<MALOR>> | "In times of crisis, it is of the utmost
All opinions are my own: | importance not to lose one's head."
imbibe with sodium chloride! :) | -- M. Anoinette
Richard R. Kurnadi
to DOS....Explanation? Well...a bug.
George Lin
: I played a medium/hard/3 game last night, with 11 life book as halflings.
: I was also "luckly stuck" on an island. By the time I met other wizards,
: they were all two to three times more powerful than me according to the
Try the impossible and they are all AT LEAST 10 TIMES more powerful. I wish
there's a way to turn off the "Spell of Mastery" so I don't automatic lose
the game due to the computer cheating. Taking 1 turn to cast the Spell of
Mastery is just REDICULOUS. Maybe I can write to SimTex and ask them which
byte(s) I can change to take that option off. This would make the
impossible setting more interesting. Right now, I'm staying with "hard",
whereas the "normal" setting where the computers DO NOT cheat is a little
too easy.
: - After you defeat an enemy wizard, you may discover new technologies from
: his home planet... Ooops, wrong game, I mean discover new spells from his
: home fortress.
Yes, but only if you have the correct color spell book. If you're playing
all white and they're all red, you don't find anything. Wish I could've
gotton some chaos spell books.
: - I played for three hours without crashing. Then again, it is sad that
: this should even be mentioned as a positive note.
Yes, it didn't crash on me either ... yet... :)
More minor bugs: After a magic spirit took over one of my guardian spirit
guarded magic node, I was getting either -24xxx or 24xxx pts. of mana income.
It was alternating in a random order and when I quit out of the game to DOS
and came back to it, it changed back to normal although it gave me 24xxx as
the mana reserve.
medium bug: You will notice during combat, if you attack a unit, you can
usually do some damage (I've been using the paladin units, but I've seen
this happened to other units) while taking little damage if your unit
is superior than the others. But if you are sitting and the computer
*attacks* your unit, you are more likely to take more damage.
Example: My paladin unit can take out at least 4-5 guardian spirits if
they are the one attacking. If my paladin is sitting in a location where
the guardian spirit is adjancent to it and if the spirit attacks my paladin,
the paladin unit is guarantee to lose 1-2 figures.
Steve Bulger
In a previous posting, George Lin (gcl0@neptune) writes:
[deletia]
> medium bug: You will notice during combat, if you attack a unit, you can
> usually do some damage (I've been using the paladin units, but I've seen
> this happened to other units) while taking little damage if your unit
> is superior than the others. But if you are sitting and the computer
> *attacks* your unit, you are more likely to take more damage.
>
> Example: My paladin unit can take out at least 4-5 guardian spirits if
> they are the one attacking. If my paladin is sitting in a location where
> the guardian spirit is adjancent to it and if the spirit attacks my paladin,
> the paladin unit is guarantee to lose 1-2 figures.
Hmmm ...
You mean that the first strike bonus is offensive only, like my manual
says? There's an interesting concept ...
Steve
--
Save the Whales!
[collect the complete set]
Stevie Lee Martin
: In a previous posting, George Lin (gcl0@neptune) writes:
I ran into something and I do not know if it is a bug or what.
I was playing at the hard level and doing very well until one
of the opposing wizards that I had not wiped out yet cast
armageddon and I immediately went from +30 gold production to
-26?
Stevie
Ron Watkins
>But if you are sitting and the computer
>*attacks* your unit, you are more likely to take more damage.
>
>Example: My paladin unit can take out at least 4-5 guardian spirits if
>they are the one attacking. If my paladin is sitting in a location where
>the guardian spirit is adjancent to it and if the spirit attacks my paladin,
>the paladin unit is guarantee to lose 1-2 figures.
I think you're forgetting that Paladins have First Strike. First
Striking units get to do damage before the defender hits back. Usually, a
Paladin will wipe out a Guardian Spirit in one shot, and the Spirit will
never have a chance to return fire.
My experience suggests that attack and defense are about the same,
except in city squares. It seems to be significantly better to be a
defender in a city square than an attacker, all other things being equal.
--
Ron Watkins, aka <<MALOR>> | "In times of crisis, it is of the
All opinions are my own; | utmost importance to keep one's head."
imbibe with sodium chloride!| -- M. Antoinette.
Thomas Stockheim
>medium bug: You will notice during combat, if you attack a unit, you can
>usually do some damage (I've been using the paladin units, but I've seen
>this happened to other units) while taking little damage if your unit
>is superior than the others. But if you are sitting and the computer
>*attacks* your unit, you are more likely to take more damage.
>Example: My paladin unit can take out at least 4-5 guardian spirits if
>they are the one attacking. If my paladin is sitting in a location where
>the guardian spirit is adjancent to it and if the spirit attacks my paladin,
>the paladin unit is guarantee to lose 1-2 figures.
This is not a bug, it's a feature ! I think paladins can use their first
strike only when attacking !
Robear
This is a bug? Some units being better on offense than on defense? I
think it is a particularly nice touch, forcing more of a combined-arms
approach.
David Pipes
Ron Watkins
>In article <3iuqi0$r...@nntp.crl.com>, Ron Watkins <rwat...@crl.com> wrote:
>> My experience suggests that attack and defense are about the same,
>>except in city squares. It seems to be significantly better to be a
>>defender in a city square than an attacker, all other things being equal.
>
>is inside the gates. One reason to hide behind the walls if you can.
Even without the city walls, though, city terrain *seems* to have a
defensive bonus. Over and over, particularly in the early game, if I sortie
out from an attacked city to meet attacking units halfway, I get
slaughtered. If my units remain in the city and only defend, they seem to
do a lot better... however, there is usually city damage in that case (in
1.3). My most recent strategy is to send some units out on sortie (on the
battle screen) to try to wipe the invader out before it reaches the city,
holding my strongest defensive unit or units in reserve in case my
sortie fails.
On the whole, I prefer city walls. :)
Rob Buchner
Stevie Lee Martin <slma...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> wrote:
>I ran into something and I do not know if it is a bug or what.
>I was playing at the hard level and doing very well until one
>of the opposing wizards that I had not wiped out yet cast
>armageddon and I immediately went from +30 gold production to -26?
Eventually the volcanoes will affect city production and mineral
deposits, so you will see a steady creep in your gold decline.
The initial jump is due to the Armegeddon spell increasing city unrest.
Rebellious worked cannot be taxed. You lose big time gold revenue.
One of the reasons to take out the chaos/death wizards first.
Those negative global enchantments can be quite annoying.
Not only that, it indirectly lowers your game score
by decreasing the population/growth of your cities.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Rob Buchner
>except in city squares. It seems to be significantly better to be a
>defender in a city square than an attacker, all other things being equal.
I believe a city wall gives you defensive bonuses until the attacker
is inside the gates. One reason to hide behind the walls if you can.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Rob Buchner
George Lin <a4...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>I wish there's a way to turn off the "Spell of Mastery" so I don't
>automatic lose the game due to the computer cheating. Taking 1
>turn to cast the Spell of Mastery is just REDICULOUS.
Its hard to believe a wizard accumulated a 5000 spell skill level
no matter how long you play the game. Actually he only needs 2500,
but even that sounds nearly impossible. 500 is much more likely
in the latter stages of a game. But in any case, consider it a
penalty for not expanding and conquering quickly enough. You
are losing the game on a "time forfeit", if not poor strategy.
One of the main strategy points in my games is making sure I have
the ability to quickly find and destroy any wizard should the need
arise. That means devoting a low of resources into building and
maintaining and magically supporting a stack of units/heros
which can move and effectively act on possibly short notice.
In other words I am ready when that spell of mastery starts.
You can also help yourself by slowing down the most powerful
wizard. Monitor the wizard comparison graphs and you know
who you have to focus on. Take some/lots of preemptive action.
>medium bug: You will notice during combat, if you attack a unit, you can
>usually do some damage (I've been using the paladin units, but I've seen
>this happened to other units) while taking little damage if your unit
>is superior than the others. But if you are sitting and the computer
>*attacks* your unit, you are more likely to take more damage.
Some units have first strike ability which only works on offense.
I believe there are other bonuses also which do not apply on defense.
Others have additional attacks (like ax throw, etc) for offense.
Without doing a thorough damage analysis and probability calculation,
I'm not sure there is a bug here. Perhaps there is. I'm not sure.
I do know I play it safe and always position myself to do the attacking.
I am more annoyed with the bug that I can only maintain a minimal
amount of units with my food production despite having fully
developed cities, but the opposing wizards have no such limitation
in maintaining their troops despite poorly developed cities
(ie no granary, etc). Not to mention the gold/upkeep. It never
ceases to amaze me. I suppose its the only hope the opposing wizard
has of keeping the contest somewhat balanced. Otherwise it would
become an easy romp.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Rob Buchner
>pgun...@students.wisc.edu (Peter Gunawan) writes:
>>
>>For me ( master of DEATH ), this is quite annoying because I don't have the
>>chance to use LIFE DRAIN and create yet another free undead unit. I usually
>>attack first so the enemy has the chance to flee before I can life-drain them
Okay, I tried using life drain to see how it works (picked up two death
books in a tower). But I can't figure it out! Does it take hit points
away from the target unit? How many hit points? How does resistance
factor into it? What affect does increased mana have on the spell?
What happens to them after I drain them? And what benefits do I get?
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Martin Davis
If you have the spell book manual you can look it up. The spell is
explained very clearly.
Herbert DM Yeung
Well, it seems to do a set amount of damage, up to a possible of about five
points of damage. However, if your opponent has high resistance, none of
the points of damage will "go through his defenses". If you pump more mana
into the spell, it will impose a penalty to his resistance check, -1/5 extra
mana, I believe. So if your opponent has already 10 resistance, you need
to pump in a lot of mana to do any damage at all. You should kill off an
opponent "mainly" by life draining attacks, such as the spell, or attacks
by Wraiths, Death Knights, Demon Lords, the Necromancer Ravashack (a Death
Champion) (watch out though, there is still the bug where the game will
crash if you successfully create undead with him), or supposedly a hero/
champion with a magic item that has Vampiric Touch? or something like that.
However, that has never happened to me, and I have never gained any life back
at all when using those weapons, so I don't know if they really work or not.
Anyways, if you kill of an enemy unit that way, they come back as "Death"
units. Basically you gain the benefits of being undead, and do not have
to support them with food or gold, but if they are summoned units, you have
to pay double the upkeep, and most importantly, they DON'T HEAL! My roommate
cast Black Channels on Roland the Paladin, which makes units undead, BAD
idea! Too bad for him... ;)
Anyways, this is from a Master of Life magic, (my roommate's friend is the
Master of Death, who I watch and laugh at, and my roommate is the Master
of Sorcery) so I may be wrong about some things...
--
Herbert D.M. Yeung (hye...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu)
Eli Nelson
four flying paladins and three flying, guardian-spirited heroes on
an impossible/powerful game. I was told that there were zombies in the
temple, so I headed in, ready for a quick dispatch. When I entered
however, I didn't see any units (invisible) but somebody summoned a
demon. Looking around with the cursor, I spotted the computer's
"zombies" They had no hit points, only four resistance, armor, and attack
strength, but... they were invisible, could summon demons, had long range
attacks, poison 100 (yes, one hundred), "chaos" which did half their
attack strength in damage, with no chance of avoiding it, they were
casters (20MP), immune to just about everything, and a whole bunch of
other stuff that took upt _three screens_ just to illustrate. Geez.
Was this a bug, or are there stupid bad-ass things lying around out there on
impossible, that you can't kill.
Thanks for any reply (please e-mail; the volume of traffic on this group
is too much for me to handle), and BTW, was the stuff about creating
"Death cities" by corrupting nodes and other stuff just a joke, or is
it real????
Thanks again.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ooh, eeh, ooh ah ah. Ting, tang, walla walla bing bang!
Ooh, eeh, ooh, ah ah, ting tang walla walla walla bing!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Buchner
Martin Davis <davi...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>rai...@apxws48.ih.att.com (Rob Buchner) wrote:
>>
>> Okay, I tried using life drain to see how it works (picked up two death
>> books in a tower). But I can't figure it out! Does it take hit points
>> away from the target unit? How many hit points? How does resistance
>> factor into it? What affect does increased mana have on the spell?
>> What happens to them after I drain them? And what benefits do I get?
>
>The spell is explained very clearly.
I think I would have been clever enough to look it up before posting.
And in response to others, I also know how to right click for help.
The description is explained very unclearly in my spell book manual.
It does not explain whether death results from a missed
resistance check (regardless of hit points), or if it
causes some predetermined amount, or random range, of
hit points worth of damage. It just says it drains life.
Wonderful. It is similarly unclear when I right click on
the spell description for on-line help. And I can't seem
to correlate the spell result with gains to myself or hero.
Pehaps it would make sense if I better knew the spell effects.
Instead of everyone sending me mail and telling me where to
find it, how about just telling me what I'd like to know.
Wow, what a concept. Answer a question with an answer.
Or should I assume that the responders also do not know?
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Jeffrey Robert King
: Has anyone else come across super_zombies? I entered a fallen temple with
: four flying paladins and three flying, guardian-spirited heroes on
: an impossible/powerful game. I was told that there were zombies in the
: temple, so I headed in, ready for a quick dispatch. When I entered
: however, I didn't see any units (invisible) but somebody summoned a
: demon. Looking around with the cursor, I spotted the computer's
: "zombies" They had no hit points, only four resistance, armor, and attack
: strength, but... they were invisible, could summon demons, had long range
: attacks, poison 100 (yes, one hundred), "chaos" which did half their
: attack strength in damage, with no chance of avoiding it, they were
: casters (20MP), immune to just about everything, and a whole bunch of
: other stuff that took upt _three screens_ just to illustrate. Geez.
: Was this a bug, or are there stupid bad-ass things lying around out there on
: impossible, that you can't kill.
Sounds like a relative of the mutant galley bug.. I have never
seen this.
: Thanks for any reply (please e-mail; the volume of traffic on this group
: is too much for me to handle), and BTW, was the stuff about creating
: "Death cities" by corrupting nodes and other stuff just a joke, or is
: it real????
I corrupted some nodes once, and it didn't seem to do anything.
The wizards' powerbase stat (from Astrologer) didn't go down.
As for Death cities, I once got an undead settler and tried to
found a city - although they still 'have' the build outpost
power, you can't actually build outposts with undead settlers.
Oh well. :>
: Thanks again.
: --
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Ooh, eeh, ooh ah ah. Ting, tang, walla walla bing bang!
: Ooh, eeh, ooh, ah ah, ting tang walla walla walla bing!
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Poitras
Perhaps a number of volcanos popped up near your cities destroying some
very productive squares. Some mines perhaps?
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+------------------------+
| Bill Poitras | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Tel (408)522-0116 |
| bi...@biocad.com | Sunnyvale, CA 94087-40237 | FAX (408)522-0199 |
+-------------------+----------------------------+------------------------+
|FTP Mail |mail ftp...@decwrl.dec.com | Offers:ftp via email |
| |Subject:<CR>help<CR>quit | |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fernando Pulido
: In article <D4tE8...@news.cis.umn.edu>,
That last guy just assumed that you had a pirate version of the game and
wanted to vent his anger on you by saying that if you had bought the
game, you would know the answer.
Man I hate people like that.
BTW, I never play death magic, yet, so I don't know either.
--
GO SHARKS ----- GO STEELERS ----- GO GIANTS ----- GO JYHAD ----- GO SEX
--------------------NOT NECESSARILY IN THAT ORDER----------------------
Fernando
fpu...@netcom.com
Stevie Lee Martin
I have found one thing interesting concerning the Supress Magic global
spell. The spell was cast by an opposing wizard and I attempted to
cast a global disjunction spell to counter it. I as unable to and I
am wondering if this is a bug since disjunction is for the express
purpose of getting rid of an oponents global spell(s). The only way
I was able to get rid of the global spell was to attack the main city
of the wizard that cast the spell. If I was not ready to become this
agressive it is an inconvience.
Stevie
Allan=Floyd%De...@bangate.compaq.com
>And in response to others, I also know how to right click for help.
>The description is explained very unclearly in my spell book manual.
>It does not explain whether death results from a missed
>resistance check (regardless of hit points), or if it
>causes some predetermined amount, or random range, of
>hit points worth of damage. It just says it drains life.
>Wonderful. It is similarly unclear when I right click on
>the spell description for on-line help. And I can't seem
>to correlate the spell result with gains to myself or hero.
>Pehaps it would make sense if I better knew the spell effects.
>
>Instead of everyone sending me mail and telling me where to
>find it, how about just telling me what I'd like to know.
>Wow, what a concept. Answer a question with an answer.
>Or should I assume that the responders also do not know?
Well, I don't know the exact answer to your question, but I can tell you
what has happened to me, when it was cast upon a Great Drake of mine.
The Drake was full strength, and since it has no missle, and moves at 2,
it took 3 turns to close with the sole enemy unit. Life Drain was cast upon
it twice, and it took 5 points from both combined. In other words, partial
failure IS possible, and it is not a Death-or-Nothing spell.
(Hope this is useful, if not... Oh, well)
Drew Fudenberg
: You are paying heavy odds in attempting to dispel Supress Magic.
: First, to successfully cast Disjunction, supress magic has about
: an 80% chance of fizzling it. And then Disjunction has only about
: a 20% chance of dispelling Supress Magic (based on mana cost of
: spell cast). Not very good. Lastly, the chances are reasonable
: the opposing wizard has sorcery mastery, reducing those dispelling
: percentages in half again. I suggest you play sorcery magic
: and cast Supress Magic first. Or take Jafar out of the game
: by selecting him in the wizard customization section. Others
: like Sss'ra may never learn the spell, or at least give you
: a lot more time to build up a strong position for attacking.
: Actually, I can usually live with Supress Magic since I
: rarely cast global enchantments or summon any creatures.
? Not even magic/guardain spirits? suppress magic stops these and so is
the end of your accumulation of magic power. consequently, I usually find
that getting rid of it becomes a major priority. I agree about the poor
odds on the dispell; I sugget taking uot the offender's fortress. crude but
efficient.
Piemax
Fei Ma
: In article <D4tE8...@news.cis.umn.edu>,
I don't know how the resistances and hit points work exactly, but if you
cast "life drain" with maximum (40?) manas on emeny spearmen, they would
die. And after you win the battle, this unit will rise as undead to serve
you. This undead unit need no maintence, same as the undead units you get
from using Wraths or ghouls. I think this spell is pretty weak, often you
need to spell it twice with +40 manas to kill a unit of elite swordmen.
If you don't have the channeler retort, that is a lot of mana.
I hope this helps.
Fei
Bill Poitras
: ? Not even magic/guardain spirits? suppress magic stops these and so is
: the end of your accumulation of magic power. consequently, I usually find
: that getting rid of it becomes a major priority. I agree about the poor
: odds on the dispell; I sugget taking uot the offender's fortress. crude but
: efficient.
But if the offender's fortress is on the other plane, and they have a planar
seal set up, the only thing you can do is disjunction it. Or wait for an
event to do it for you.
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+------------------------+
| Bill Poitras | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Tel (408)522-0116 |
| bi...@ba.msi.com | Sunnyvale, CA 94087-40237 | FAX (408)522-0199 |
Rob Buchner
You are paying heavy odds in attempting to dispel Supress Magic.
First, to successfully cast Disjunction, supress magic has about
an 80% chance of fizzling it. And then Disjunction has only about
a 20% chance of dispelling Supress Magic (based on mana cost of
spell cast). Not very good. Lastly, the chances are reasonable
the opposing wizard has sorcery mastery, reducing those dispelling
percentages in half again. I suggest you play sorcery magic
and cast Supress Magic first. Or take Jafar out of the game
by selecting him in the wizard customization section. Others
like Sss'ra may never learn the spell, or at least give you
a lot more time to build up a strong position for attacking.
Actually, I can usually live with Supress Magic since I
rarely cast global enchantments or summon any creatures.
And it does prevent other wizards from getting too strong.
What really troubles me is when its cast while I'm trying
to get rid of Armeggedon or Great Wasting or Meteor Storm.
But in V1.3, I have help, the other wizards do contribute
in also casting disjunction at each other, including at
times the elimination of Supress Magic itself.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Rob Buchner
>Drew Fudenberg <fude...@husc7.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Rob Buchner (rai...@apxws48.ih.att.com) wrote:
>>: Actually, I can usually live with Supress Magic since I
>>: rarely cast global enchantments or summon any creatures.
>Not even magic/guardain spirits? suppress magic stops these and so is
>the end of your accumulation of magic power.
Yea, your right, I have to cast like ten of them to get one magic spirit.
Then again I'm busy fighting wizards at that point, not conquering nodes.
Actually, what happens in reality (V1.3) is that the other wizards are
busy casting disjunctions for me. It does go away sooner or later.
>consequently, I usually find that getting rid of it becomes a major
>priority. I agree about the poor odds on the dispell; I sugget taking
>out the offender's fortress. crude but efficient.
Banishing a wizard does not discontinue the spell, you must defeat him.
Depending on who the wizards are, defeating someone like Tauron has
highest urgency rather than going after the magic supressor. By the
way, I kind of like the other wizards not being able to cast some
nasty global enchantments, they keep trying and mostly wasting mana.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
Tyler Bannister
There are several thing to consider... Suppress Magic is supposed to supress all magic even disjunctions... Second if you did succeed in getting a disjunction through you're disjunction may not be powerful enough...
--
Tyler Bannister
tban...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
John Meekison
>Path:
>news.mindlink.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howl
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>vard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!husc7!fudenber
>From: fude...@husc7.harvard.edu (Drew Fudenberg)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>Subject: Re: Mom 1.3 - My first impressions
>Date: 8 Mar 1995 13:55:10 GMT
>Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <3jkcvu$f...@decaxp.harvard.edu>
>References: <3ikvrj$s...@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu> <D4vtw...@ssbunews.ih.att.com>
><fpulidoD...@netcom.com> <3jfijr$9...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>
><D5359...@ssbunews.ih.att.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: husc7.harvard.edu
>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
>Rob Buchner (rai...@apxws48.ih.att.com) wrote:
>Piemax
If you have sorcery, you can cast spell binding and take over the suppress
magic spell. This has generally worked for me in previous games. After
taking control of suppress magic, you can either keep it if you can afford the
mana, or cancel it. Talk about turning the tables on your opponents!
John Meekison
John Meekison
>Path:
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>vard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!husc7!fudenber
>From: fude...@husc7.harvard.edu (Drew Fudenberg)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>Subject: Re: Mom 1.3 - My first impressions
>Date: 8 Mar 1995 13:55:10 GMT
>Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <3jkcvu$f...@decaxp.harvard.edu>
>References: <3ikvrj$s...@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu> <D4vtw...@ssbunews.ih.att.com>
><fpulidoD...@netcom.com> <3jfijr$9...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>
><D5359...@ssbunews.ih.att.com>
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>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Capt Stern
>In article <3jfijr$9...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, slma...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Stevie Lee Martin) writes:
>>
> There are several thing to consider... Suppress Magic is supposed to
> supress all magic even disjunctions...
> Second if you did succeed in getting a disjunction through you're
> disjunction may not be powerful enough...
Read the info contained in your spell book about disjunction. It's not a 100%
success rate. Wouldn't that be boring? The more mana it cost to cast the
spell, the more mana you must add to it to have a reasonable chance of
removing it. Also certain torts will help or hinder you as well.
But all of this is very clearly explained both within the game & within the
manual.
Rob Buchner
Jeffrey Robert King <jr...@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>One question: How the #$^& did this guy get so advanced in
>spell research while you apparently remained primitive? In most
>of my games I start researching the SoM while the others are
>still playing around with cockatrices, wraiths &c. Were you
>playing a primitive race that can't produce research
>independently? If so, don't be surprised that you're no match
>for opponents magically. You should have hit them militarily,
>and MUCH earlier, before things got to this pass.
Perhaps others are playing impossible level with V1.3.
It takes a long time to catch up with magical research.
And you won't be hitting them quickly in the game, they'll
be coming after you fast and hard. You'll be doing nothing
much at all early on except defending for your very life.
--
Rob Buchner
rai...@ihlpf.ih.att.com
sg71...@omega.ntu.ac.sg
It is supposed to reduce the hit points of the affected unit.
What I found out was, if Life Drain was used to make the last
hit which kills the unit. That enemy unit becomes an undead
to serve you! I don't think this is in the books ;>.
Just my $0.02.
LEO
I-Ting Lin
: From my experience, Life Drain is a useful spell if done correctly.
I did see that in the manual somewhere. However, I think Life Drain would
only make an undead unit if the WHOLE unit is killed using it, not only
the last hit.
I-Ting Lin
Dennis Andrew Blazewicz
To throw MY 2 cents into it.. i believe you only get the unit if the Life
Drain / Other Life Stealing Attacks do at least half of the damage to needed
to kill the unit.
Astinu
Jeffrey Robert King
Correct.
If you want to see how Life Drain really works, look in the
Apprentice report.. there is a blurb in that book which
describes it more specifically than the standard help.
According to this, the unit loses one hp per point by which it
fails the RR: for instance, if its (modified) resistance was 4,
and it 'rolled' a 7 on a simulated d10 (ten-sided die), it
would lose three hit points. The unit's resistance is decreased
by one per 5 extra mana put into the spell: this means, on
average, you can expect to do one additional hit point per 5
mana put into the spell. If the total of all life drain and
undead creating attacks (life drain, ghouls, wraiths, death
knights, demon lords, Ravashack (?), vampiric weapons) exceeds
half of the damage done to the unit, it will rise from the dead
to serve you. Rising from the dead to serve you takes
precedence over being transformed into zombies by Zombie
Mastery.
: Astinu
Ken Fishkin
> What I found out was, if Life Drain was used to make the last
> hit which kills the unit. That enemy unit becomes an undead
> to serve you! I don't think this is in the books ;>.
Yes, that's in the spell description.
HOWEVER, it doesn't seem to work on heros - I killed an enemy
hero using "Life Drain" (nothing else had touched him - 100% life drain),
and he didn't become undead and serve me. Boo Hoo.
--
Ken Fishkin fis...@xerox.com
http://www.xerox.com/PARC/istl/gir/fishkin.html
Jeffrey Robert King
: In article <1995Mar1...@omega.ntu.ac.sg>, sg71...@omega.ntu.ac.sg writes:
: > What I found out was, if Life Drain was used to make the last
: > hit which kills the unit. That enemy unit becomes an undead
: > to serve you! I don't think this is in the books ;>.
: Yes, that's in the spell description.
: HOWEVER, it doesn't seem to work on heros - I killed an enemy
: hero using "Life Drain" (nothing else had touched him - 100% life drain),
: and he didn't become undead and serve me. Boo Hoo.
Heroes never become undead and serve you. The only way to get
an undead hero is to cast Black Channels on one (which, btw,
you should never do - he can't heal, and he can't gain
experience. One more level gain and you would get as much
increase in abilities as you did from the black channel, at
least.. Possibly you could justify casting it on a Demi-God, if
he had a life steal attack of some kind.
: --
: Ken Fishkin fis...@xerox.com
: http://www.xerox.com/PARC/istl/gir/fishkin.html
Moses Cline-James
>an undead hero is to cast Black Channels on one (which, btw,
>you should never do - he can't heal, and he can't gain
>experience. One more level gain and you would get as much
>increase in abilities as you did from the black channel, at
>least.. Possibly you could justify casting it on a Demi-God, if
>he had a life steal attack of some kind.
Or if you cast regeneration on him.
BTW, do you know if heroes can get past Demi-God status if you have
Warlord ability and/or have cast the crusade spell?
Thomas Stockheim
>BTW, do you know if heroes can get past Demi-God status if you have
>Warlord ability and/or have cast the crusade spell?
Know, they cannot - at least they don't get a new title, I haven't checked
if the stats change. But warlord and crusade help heroes anyway, because
they are allways two levels higher then normally, and that is really usefull
to get them to demi-lord fast.
However, somebody mentioned a vampiric level above demi-god once, but I never
got this one. It may have been a joke, or a feature of V 1.0 only.
Thomas
Jeffrey Robert King
: mo...@olympus.net (Moses Cline-James) writes:
: >BTW, do you know if heroes can get past Demi-God status if you have
: >Warlord ability and/or have cast the crusade spell?
Do you know how long I spent running around every node and lair
on Arcanus and Myrror trying to verify this? And then, when I
finally manage to get Serena up to 1000 ep, nothing happens.
I wish people wouldn't post things like this without verifying
them first.
: Know, they cannot - at least they don't get a new title, I haven't checked
: if the stats change. But warlord and crusade help heroes anyway, because
: they are allways two levels higher then normally, and that is really usefull
: to get them to demi-lord fast.
What REALLY helps heroes is heroism. Instant commander level.
In the early game, that is decisive.
: However, somebody mentioned a vampiric level above demi-god once, but I never
: got this one. It may have been a joke, or a feature of V 1.0 only.
: Thomas
DriveBy Billy
Thomas Stockheim <to...@rama.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
>However, somebody mentioned a vampiric level above demi-god once, but I never
>got this one. It may have been a joke, or a feature of V 1.0 only.
I seen this one like in Mom 1.1 where exp exceeds 999 for a hero.
It would give this lite blue icon with 2 eye saying Demonic of Vampiric. I
forget which one. I have not seen it in a long time and my heros are all
above 1000 exp when I win.
--
-BillyBoy
Marcus Lindberg
before I got a resonable start. It was a struggle from the start but I
survived as one of the computerplayers did not declare war on me. It is
quite possible to stand up to one computerplayer. Well I thought the
game was won when I got my paladin production going but then there
was an unexpected incident. Jafaar that I had not seen yet as he was the
sole occupant of the other realm cast Time Stop!. I sat with a long face
before my monitor watching the harddisk lamp blinking as he made his turns.
It became booring after ten minutes and I thus started pressing various
keys to try to stop the game but nothing worked. The stupid Jafaar
cast a lot of Time Stops and other enchantments so he eventually run out
of mana and gold. It would have taken forever otherwise as I suspect that
he had 30000 in both mana and gold when the first time stop was cast.
Now it "only" took 45 minutes on my DX33 until I got to move my units.
I then took a tower and moved my killer stack + flying scouts to Jafaars
plane and took out his wizards tower. The game was quite easy after that.
Anyone who have other MOM-stories?
/Marcus
jack harmon
: Anyone who have other MOM-stories?
: /Marcus
Anyone else up for a challenging style of play?!?! Don't know how many of
you do this, but I find that playing with only ONE city is a good way to
challenge yourself - on the levels other than impossible that is... The
only cities I keep are those that contain a wizards tower, I.E. a banished
wizard. Although this is difficult, it is also advantageous. You have one
heckuva stronghold! Anyone (everyone) else tried this?
The official Strategy guide is ALMOST here!!! All that AI to peruse!
*cackle*
Jack Harmon
jha...@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu
Zhen Zhong Zou
Marcus Lindberg (e90...@efd.lth.se) wrote:
: I tried my first game on impossible level. My butt got kicked three times
Well similar things happen to me!! I started out in Myrror and
after a while I send my two killer stacks to arcanus
Chaos Warrior(1red)+Priestess(2red)+3 adamantium slinger(Champion) + 2
paladin(ultra elite)+2 high men magicians(ultra elite)
Roland(3 gold)+Torin(3 gold) + 3 adamantium slinger(Champion) + 2 paladin
+ 2 high men magicians
I was kicking merlin's butt and then Jafar casted time stop!!
and just for the fun I wait to see if he will try to banish me and guest
what! he just keep casting junky enchantments like awareness, wind mastery
and ... I got only two halfling spearmen at my fortress how hard will it
be to kick my butt!!! so I decided to hit my SNES and play final phantasy
for 4 hours! and stupid jafar still casting time stop. how many times
do you need to do that anyway. why couldn't he just summon a bunch of
skydrakes and head for my fortress and I got cities all over myrror
and half of arcanus. did he bother to attack!!! nooooooooooo.
and what the heck is going on anyway. or perhaps the cities have already
got taken over and just that we couldn't see it because the time have
stopped. how much unkeep is for the time stop anyway. This is one
nasty spell. too bad jafar did't try to get me!!
my philosophy is that offense is the best defense so usually I don't
keep much troops in the cities. except in the front line anyway.
so here's the MOM AI!!! CHEATING ====== AI ====== STUPID
if you cheat at least use them.
: /Marcus
:
Jonathan DeMarrais
>
>
>: Anyone who have other MOM-stories?
I was playing a game in v1.3, 2 opponents on impossible. Syssra had cast
planar seal early on, and as I expanded I met noone. It turned out I had
all of the non-myrror (Arcanus?) side of the world to myself!
I decided to try to outproduce them (figuring I had twice the land they did)
and so cast planar seal myself as insurance. Anyway it didn't go too well.
Armegeddon was cast causing me to go -200 gold just as I was getting my
first rare spell. It took 3-4 max strength disjunctions to get rid of
by which time supress magic and meteor storm were up.
Then, after a restore from a crash, every unconquered lair and node
started spewing out stacks of 9 monsters. I had a speed 9 Torin who was
desperately running from city to city trying to save them. Fortunately
there were few outstanding places and only lost one city.
After bringing the situation under control I took a look at my opponents.
All their global enchantments were gone. There money, mana had gone from
both being 30000 to 0. There city sizes had all dropped to 1. All their
units were gone, and all nodes had been spewing forth monsters.
Approximately 1/3 of the cities they used to own still existed. The
rest were gone. I decided to help this process out by sending Torin across.
I ended up taking about 5 cities; the rest except for 1 were destroyed.
By the end of the game I only owned 2, for the nodes continued to spew out
stacks of 9 monsters (always 9 too) every 2-3 turns. (Torin held one).
Even with all that one of the computers got off the spell of mastery first,
but he was easy to conquer. I didn't kill him off entirely as I wanted to
cast the spell which I eventually did.
So my idea of outproducing them didn't work, and I consider the game
a "nonwin". But boy would I like to get my hands on the spell that
reduced my opponenents! The monsters spewing from the nodes was a pain
as well as the fact that each city was -50 gold (size 2-3, with all the
buildings), but obviously worth the cost! I figure that all the men
manning the cities must have been sacrificed to summon up all the monsters
by some dread node god :)
--
--- Jay j...@pollux.usc.edu (University of Southern California)
What a depressingly stupid machine.
Marvin