CC2: Being Allies no fun
helmet
I
>It seems that the computer has some advantage. When
>computer plays Germans, his Reserve can maul two of my
>rifle hits crawling toward it. When I play Germans,
>Reserve kills little or breaks up. Same with tanks.
>When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
>confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
>my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
>Steve Emerson seme...@teleport.com
im actually beginning to believe the computer cheats.yesterday
i played day 2 of grand xampaign on goosebeek heights,having won on
day one.
start of day2 germans had 2 panthers and one armoured vehicle.i had
4 piat teams, even when a atank came within 8 yards my piats couldnt kill it.
the other piat teams were hiding but armoured vehicle seemed to know
where they were.i played this battle over 4 times but got nowhere.the reason i
think
it cheats is at the start i hid all my infantry except piats at back of map
well hidden behind trees.as soon as senario started they were morterbombed
by germans. How did they know where they were? no way hey could of been seen
helmet
>--
Toni Lassila
>I don't see why people are raving about the anti-tank
>gun. The chances of getting a side shot on a German tank
>before any German unit gets an LOS on my gun are
>very slim. Not giving the 3rd floor to anti-tank
Try placing your AT guns between buildings, so they can fire through
the narrow street but are still protected from side attacks. When a
German panzer wanders in sight around the corner, you will get a sure
side hit. Let the German tanks come to you, then ambush them.
>Reserve kills little or breaks up. Same with tanks.
>When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
>confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
>my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
So don't do face-to-face. Hide around a building and let go when he
comes around the corner. My Stuart took out a panther and a StuH42
this way.
>And can anyone explain why Allies don't get tanks at the
>Schindel sand dunes when XXX Corps is at Veghel?
Because the airbornes are defending Schindel?
-
"If the meaning of life was printed in a book, someone
would use it to keep the window open."
Tony Swash
In article <67hpoh$i1q$1...@news1.teleport.com>, Steve Emerson
<seme...@user2.teleport.com> wrote:
And I constantly get
> mauled trying to crawl up to German units at Veghel brdige,
> but when I play Germans, computer doesn't get mauled at all.
>
I find this particular bridge fairly easy. The best way to take it is to
rush it. Use mortars to put a smoke screen around the actual bridge. Use a
couple of BAR units to hold down the German infantry infront of the bridge
and rush all the rest of your units across the field next to the road and
rush across the bridge. Its usually all over very fast.
Thomas Ruschak
In article <67hpoh$i1q$1...@news1.teleport.com> Steve Emerson <seme...@user2.teleport.com> writes:
>
>It seems that the computer has some advantage. When
>computer plays Germans, his Reserve can maul two of my
>rifle hits crawling toward it. When I play Germans,
>When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
>confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
>my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
Yup, computer just cheats -- get used to it. It's
troops are always going to have better morale, hit more
often, take fire better, etc. It's just something they put
in to make the game harder.
Tom
--
-- I don't know why I did it,
I don't know why I enjoyed it,
and I don't know why I'd do it again! -Bart
Jim Smilanich
Thomas Ruschak (t...@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
:> Yup, computer just cheats -- get used to it. It's
:> troops are always going to have better morale, hit more
:> often, take fire better, etc. It's just something they put
:> in to make the game harder.
Well, that's a little strong. I think it's more accurate to say
that the default settings favor the comuter (Normal strength to Strong).
John Anderson has suggested several times that if people are struggling
with the game, choose 'Custom', and set it to Normal - Normal. That more
accurately reflects troop strengths, anyway.
--
Jim Smilanich | "A man should be able to pilot a starship, plan
jsm...@nospam.visi.com | an invasion, diaper a baby....specialization is
Vector is my access | for insects!" -- Lazarus Long
provider, so don't blame|
them for my opinions! | Sgt. Rock <<<) for Quake and Close Combat
John Anderson
Jim Smilanich wrote:
>
> Thomas Ruschak (t...@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
> :> Yup, computer just cheats -- get used to it. It's
> :> troops are always going to have better morale, hit more
> :> often, take fire better, etc. It's just something they put
> :> in to make the game harder.
> :>
>
> Well, that's a little strong. I think it's more accurate to say
> that the default settings favor the comuter (Normal strength to Strong).
> John Anderson has suggested several times that if people are struggling
> with the game, choose 'Custom', and set it to Normal - Normal. That more
> accurately reflects troop strengths, anyway.
>
Actually, I'd suggest you try Strong vs Weak or Very Strong vs Weak and
see if that helps. The AI's troops *are* going to be better when
playing at Veteran difficulty level.
--
John Anderson Atomic Games, Inc.
Wargamer Close Combat
http://www.atomic.com Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far
Windancer
helmet wrote in message ...
>
>>Jim Smilanich wrote:
>>>
>>> Thomas Ruschak (t...@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
>>> :> Yup, computer just cheats -- get used to it. It's
>>> :> troops are always going to have better morale, hit more
>>> :> often, take fire better, etc. It's just something they put
>>> :> in to make the game harder.
>
> after two days playing this i couldnt believe germans didnt win
>the war.
Tp Truly enjoy being the Allies, you really have to HATE Nazi's. Then you
understand why the Germans lost the war.
helmet
Peter Munn
helmet wrote:
>
> im actually beginning to believe the computer cheats.yesterday
> i played day 2 of grand xampaign on goosebeek heights,having won on
> day one.
> start of day2 germans had 2 panthers and one armoured vehicle.i had
> 4 piat teams, even when a atank came within 8 yards my piats couldnt kill it.
> the other piat teams were hiding but armoured vehicle seemed to know
> where they were.i played this battle over 4 times but got nowhere.the reason i
> think
> it cheats is at the start i hid all my infantry except piats at back of map
> well hidden behind trees.as soon as senario started they were morterbombed
> by germans. How did they know where they were? no way hey could of been seen
> helmet
>
> >--
I have not noticed the computer opponent cheating by being more accurate
when firing, but have noticed two areas where I suspect the AI cheats.
As you say enemy mortar fire seems to target unit they cannot see. This
is not going for the most likely spots as I do not recall them ever
being wrong. Playing as Germans this can be the biggest problem as the
computer often seems to have 4-5 mortars and I seem to take the majority
of my casualties from these.
Also at the start of a scenario the computer seems to be able to get off
shots before you can. If you have exposed tanks or AT guns with defend
orders and so does the computer they almost always kill you.
Timothy Honke
Steve Emerson wrote:
>
> I am commonly seeing two Stermagredr's, one Shweres MG, one Schultzen,
> two Reserve's, two Auklarers, one Panzerschrek, one
> Mortar unit, and two tanks coming at me--with no tanks
> at my disposal. Sometimes I have enough req points, but the fixed limit
> on units doesn't allow me to get what I need. I need
> at least two or three piats or bazookas. I need at
> least 7 or 8 reg infrantry units just to fight
> the non-tank guys. A Stermagrenadr or Schultzen can take out any of
> my units one-on-one, especially if the Schultzen is
> in a building and I'm not. Sometimes there are 3-4 tanks and
> I need more bazookas. If I take 4 bazookas, then even if
> I manage to kill the tanks, a challenge, then I
> have fewer infrantry units to fight off the others.
> The fixed unit limit hurts the Allies which need
> lots of bazookas. The German panzerschreks always
> go into the Support area, but Allied bazookas go into
> the Infrantry section.
SNIP
> Steve Emerson seme...@teleport.com
Now you know how paratroopers feel when they find out their whole
operation was planned by a pompous incompetent.... ;)
This article was posted from <A HREF="http://www.slurp.net/">Slurp Net</A>.
Ronald Gretz
Forgot to add - I was playing the whole campaign on the normal level of
difficulty.
--
***************************************************
If you wish to reply by email.... remove the 'sts.'
Ronald Gretz
Finished up a Grand Campaign this past weekend. From start to finish.
I achieved a personal best of a Major Allied Victory at 07:00 on
beginning of Day 6. This included the Germans blowing the Son Bridge
and the Veghel Bridge. As a matter of fact, during game play, I
completed the Eindhoven sector by end of day 3 and Nijmegen Sector by
end of day 4. One real key for me was to take advantage when I got on a
roll of victories and press the Germans by only using 1 hour delays to
press onto the next map. Frequently, the Germans would be undermanned
do to lack of reinforcements with the battles occuring so shortly. By
end of Day 4 however, they were starting to really bulk up, and when the
Polish drop occured on day 5, the Poles were being faced with King
Tigers and JagdPanthers. Go Figure - it would be the Poles that got the
raw end of the deal.
Forbes Robertson
In article <67jgt3$o...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, t...@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu
(Thomas Ruschak) wrote:
> In article <67hpoh$i1q$1...@news1.teleport.com> Steve Emerson
<seme...@user2.teleport.com> writes:
> >
> >It seems that the computer has some advantage. When
> >computer plays Germans, his Reserve can maul two of my
> >rifle hits crawling toward it. When I play Germans,
> >Reserve kills little or breaks up. Same with tanks.
> >When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
> >confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
> >my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
>
> Yup, computer just cheats -- get used to it. It's
> troops are always going to have better morale, hit more
> often, take fire better, etc. It's just something they put
> in to make the game harder.
I disagree, I dont think the AI cheats.
Ithink the first shot for tanks & AT guns is down to experience of the
troops, if your teams keep getting killed then the enemies get better while
you just get average replacement ones.
At Groesbeek as the Germans, I have often destroyed 4 allied tanks in the
first second or two.
I think the main point is not to deploy your vehicles in the open -- the AI
deployment is pretty random, and most vehicles are out in front. Deploy
your infantry in front, for observation. Hide your tanks then try to get
shots on enemy tanks when they are busy else where.
The diffiuclty settings make a big difference, try an allied campaign with
both sides at strong setting.
I had no trouble winning as the allies this way, about day 5 -- before the
Poles landed. Even though Son bridge was blown and delay XXX corp a bit,
all the road was clear infront and they just rolled up to The Island.
An important part of the campaign is the passing of the days. The germasn
start very weak everywhere, while the allied forces are generally a bit
stronger, and in some cases (Vehgal) much stronger.
But the Germans gain units as the days pass, especially by day 4.
I think a key is holding Arnhem bridge throughout. This stops a lot of
German tanks moving South. Also the faster (in days) you move the less
reinforcements the Germans accumulate
For 1st Airborne, hide in buildings and wait for the German infantry to
cross the open ground and machine gun them. 6pdrs are quite cabable of
killing Panthers and Tigers, though it may take several shots. I think the
AI tanks tend to get distracted easily, also as the 6pdr shells often
bounce off I think it isnt regard as much of a threat.
As to the AI tanks killing infantry AT teams magically -- cant say I've
seen this. If your AT teams are hidden, and the tanks dont have infantry
support they struggle to find your teams. But if they are supported by
infantry, who see much better, or your teams are moving or in the open then
good luck!
Personally playing the Germans at Vetran is very tedious. Constantly
replaying the same 3 maps, Son South, Nijmagen City and Grosbeek heights,
as the Allies try to get anywhere.
Tried Hero level as the germans, so few troops on day 1 that the only
tactic that seemed to slow things up was to hide a sniper and wait for a
ceasefire -- though I think this is definately a bug. Why dosent the AI
take uncontested VL?
Mortars -- the AI may be a bit better with them -- but I have gone back to
the origanl version to graphical bugs in the patch. It will sometimes shell
random buildings -- and its mortars start firing very quickly at the start
of a game. Also mortars (all weapons) are much more effective against
running /standing people than those lying on the ground.
I think that mortars are perhaps best at suppression, rather than killing.
Suppression of the enemy is very useful, as it stops them firing back. If
your team crawls up to an OK enemy squad they will be grenaded to death --
when crawling troops cannot fire. If you move fast then you will shoot, and
more importantly throw grenades.
But you need to suppress the enemy before charging -- be patient.
This is probably enough for a first post :-)
Back to work.
I have a first draft of a strategy guide if any one is interested -- but I
wont get to do any more work on it till Feb.
Forbes
rick.p...@aspect.com
>
> I have not noticed the computer opponent cheating by being more accurate
> when firing, but have noticed two areas where I suspect the AI cheats.
> As you say enemy mortar fire seems to target unit they cannot see. This
> is not going for the most likely spots as I do not recall them ever
> being wrong. Playing as Germans this can be the biggest problem as the
> computer often seems to have 4-5 mortars and I seem to take the majority
> of my casualties from these.
>
> Also at the start of a scenario the computer seems to be able to get off
> shots before you can. If you have exposed tanks or AT guns with defend
> orders and so does the computer they almost always kill you.
I have been playing both the Germans and Allies in stand alone battles.
What I have found is that at the start of a game, All of you tanks and
half tracks should be hidden to avoid getting wiped out before you can
even take action. I also check the LOS from my tanks to make sure they
are not exposed, even when hidden
I also move leg units up to expose any hidden threats before I even move
the tanks up. Also, I keep them well back in towns to avoid being taken
out, which is an historical use of armor and infantry as far as I can
tell.
One complaint about tanks that I have is when order a tank to waste a
building off in the distance, both MGs fire continually at the building,
wasting ammo with little or no effect. Also, the tank crews seem to get
bored sometimes and wander off or fidgeted like little children rather
than sitting still.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Hjalmar Gerber
John,
I assume there will be another patch . . . especially
one that will rinse out the sticky glue that the first
one, CC2.0a, introduced.
Here are some more fixes for my wish list.
1) When staring down a Tiger or a Panther or whatever, with
the 88's muzzle up against my tonsils, I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR
THAT *&%#ing lame "Conserve ammunition!" whine. It is totally
unrealistic. No-one in his right mind would conserve ammo
when the next split second could be his last.
2) Campaign: Things go well for then 101st. XXX Corps moves
north. Germans attack with the tanks from hell at Schijndel
Dunes and Road. Paratroopers are hard-pressed, bazookas are
no longer available (though the points are), AND SUPPLY TO THE
NORTH IS CUT OFF. . . yet XXX Corps refuses to send tanks to
restore their own supply line ??????????? Huh ?
These are the lastest items on my wish list. RSVP.
Happy Hanukkah. Merry CHRISTmas.
Hjalmar Gerber
_______________
M E Rapier
In article <67pc38$acv$2...@news1.teleport.com>, seme...@user2.teleport.com
says...
>Ronald Gretz <ronald...@sts.sabre.com> wrote:
>: Finished up a Grand Campaign this past weekend. From start to finish.
>: I achieved a personal best of a Major Allied Victory at 07:00 on
>: beginning of Day 6. This included the Germans blowing the Son Bridge
>: and the Veghel Bridge. As a matter of fact, during game play, I
>: completed the Eindhoven sector by end of day 3 and Nijmegen Sector by
>: end of day 4. One real key for me was to take advantage when I got on a
>: roll of victories and press the Germans by only using 1 hour delays to
>: press onto the next map.
>
>This hasn't worked for me at Nigmegen City -> Nijmegen Bridge
>and Grosbeek Heights -> Grosbeek Farmland. At each time
>I delayed an hour but was surprised by a healthy set of
>German troops, which then pushed me all the way back.
Yes, take 1 hour delays when you've got the advantage, this worked for me as
the Germans (on Vet) and as the Allies (normal vs Very Strong).
Nijmegen City is only held by a token force, there is a massive garrison at
Nijmegen Bridge.
1 hour delays are the only way to capture Arnhem road bridge and to do the
Nijmegen crossing and get a chance to take the Island on the same day and to
have a decent chance of taking Son (I didn't). No-one said it was going to be
easy..
Cheers.
Martin.
--
Martin Rapier, Database Administrator
Corporate Information & Computing Services.
University of Sheffield Tel 0114 222 1137
http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/
M E Rapier
In article <67hpoh$i1q$1...@news1.teleport.com>, seme...@user2.teleport.com
says...
>I am commonly seeing two Stermagredr's, one Shweres MG, one Schultzen,
>two Reserve's, two Auklarers, one Panzerschrek, one
>Mortar unit, and two tanks coming at me--with no tanks
>at my disposal. Sometimes I have enough req points, but the fixed limit
>on units doesn't allow me to get what I need. I need
>at least two or three piats or bazookas. I need at
>least 7 or 8 reg infrantry units just to fight
>the non-tank guys. A Stermagrenadr or Schultzen can take out any of
>my units one-on-one, especially if the Schultzen is
>in a building and I'm not. Sometimes there are 3-4 tanks and
>I need more bazookas. If I take 4 bazookas, then even if
>I manage to kill the tanks, a challenge, then I
>have fewer infrantry units to fight off the others.
It depends on the situation, at Arnhem road bridge you have to stand and
fight, but the attackers terrain is so poor that you can hold off almost any
attack with minimal losses, although sometimes the baddies get into the big
wooden building. A Vickers tema is essential on this map though. On other maps
you can run away and fight a delaying action - the initial stages of the
Arnhem relief you are so outnumbered you _have_ to run away, but you get bonus
req points for falling back, so eventually you can turn and maul the Germans.
I held Groesbeek LZ on Day 1 (just) but on Day 2 a horde of Panthers and Pz
IVs attacked so I legged it back to the farmland, much better defensive
terrain and fought five or six battles there. The vast numbers of German tanks
and halftracks died like flies in the face of an AT gun, a couple of bazookas
a flamethrower and the great anti-halftrack 60mm mortar. Same at Oosterbeek,
though I lost the LZ on Day one, fell back to the town, blew the Germans away
and then advanced again.
A do or die defence is often does just that - die.
>The fixed unit limit hurts the Allies which need
>lots of bazookas. The German panzerschreks always
>go into the Support area, but Allied bazookas go into
>the Infrantry section.
Panzerschrecks were deployed as seperate company (battalion?) level sections.
The main priority is to kill the German tanks, frequently the last infantry
run away when all their armour is destroyed, and in these cases your infantry
units just have to take care of themselves. You need to keep AT teams out of
the way until his tanks close up, then micro manage stalking them. Sometimes
you get lucky and some heroic infantryman will blow the tanks themselves, but
that only happened twice for me.
It is really just a matter of combined arms - mortars are good against open
topped vehicles, HMGs can kill almost any AFV at close range, flamethrowers
are wonderful all over, and obviously AT teams and ATGs primary targets are
AFVs.
>I don't see why people are raving about the anti-tank
>gun. The chances of getting a side shot on a German tank
>before any German unit gets an LOS on my gun are
>very slim. Not giving the 3rd floor to anti-tank
>guns takes away the first shot opportunities I
>used to have, which turns out to be the only shot
>I can get without being destroyed by someone else.
I used to hate them as well, but now I've figured out that you need to deploy
them in good cover with flank protection ( a rifle squad/AT team work well)
and with a good field of fire over a _short_ distance (to maximise first shot
hit probs), they are just wonderful. The German don't like driving tanks down
narrow streets so you can usually figure out the best place to put your ATG,
and then it is just a matter of hiding the gun (to save ammo) and watching
like a hawk for some dumb tank to motor into its line of fire and then blow it
away.
In restricted terrain you can almost always get a flank shot, but even
frontally you can take out Tigers and Panthers (at very close range). Ideally
you want a crossfire of bazooka, ATG and flamethrower fire, which spells
instant death for any AFV foolish enough to enter it.
>Of course sometimes I get lucky, but the chances
>are slim and that anti-tank gun sucks up 14 points.
Well, it depends where you put them. I've had ATG teams rack up half a dozen
AFV kills, one got four tanks in one battle (Schjindel Dunes). To save points
always try and prevent your teams being completely wiped out - if necessary
exit the last man of a squad, they will usually come back full of replacements
for the next battle at no points cost. Equally, try and wipe out some of the
enemy squads totally rather than damage them all.
>It seems that the computer has some advantage. When
>computer plays Germans, his Reserve can maul two of my
>rifle hits crawling toward it. When I play Germans,
>Reserve kills little or breaks up. Same with tanks.
>When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
>confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
>my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
Troop quality is modified by difficulty level. The AI needs some advantages to
give it a chance. I have a soft spot for German reserve troops, but they need
to be positioned in good defensive terrain with a good leader nearby.
Avoid face to face armour battles like the plague. As the Allies try to flank
the enemy (Stuarts and Daimlers are best for this) or get them into a
crossfire to get a flank shot with superior numbers. For both the Germans and
the Allies, hang back and use infantry to spot the enemy and attrit their
armour before getting stuck in with your own. The side with even a single AFV
left unopposed is going to wipe the floor (well, if a human is in control
anyway).
Most of the tanks my Germans had were PzIVs, which need careful handling
anyway, I bought a Tiger II at Nijmegen though, I just _had_ to have it;)
>I rarely win all three Veghel (bridge), Son (town), and Schindel
>(road) battles on the first attempt. For me Son and Veghel are
>the hardest. If anyone has suggestions on how
>to kill 3 MG 42's at the Arnheim Rail Brdige on
>the first day, I would appreciate it. And I constantly get
>mauled trying to crawl up to German units at Veghel brdige,
>but when I play Germans, computer doesn't get mauled at all.
Veghel is not bad, I've done it on Vet and on normal vs V Strong. You've got
so many men that you can either hold back and shoot the Germans off the bridge
or just rush them. Then it is just 1 hour delays and on to victory.
At Schindel road I usually sneak into good assault positions, go for a one
hour ceasefire, then get stuck in from better jump off locations. You can take
most of the map sneaking about as it is so constricted.
Son is tough. To take the town I flank it via the Broom Factory, gun down the
Germans counter attack and then sneak into the far rear and roll it up from
behind. Son bridge is really just a matter of charging into the buildings and
onto the bridge. I've never taken it intact, though some people have.
I've never taken Arnhem rail bridge either, but again you have loads of men
and if you can get the bridge approach, the Germans will move around so you
can gun them down with Brens and your mortar. Then it is one hour delays and
on to glory (says he who finally straggled on to Arnhem road bridge with
precisely seven men left - and still had to take out an SS MG42, ouch;).
>And can anyone explain why Allies don't get tanks at the
>Schindel sand dunes when XXX Corps is at Veghel?
Because the 101st are holding it by themselves? An AT gun, flamethrower, a
couple of .30s a 60mm and the usual mix of rifle, BAR and bazooka teams can
hold it pretty handily anyway as the attackers terrain is so bad. It is very
satisfying to sucker them into the big ammo dump near the bottom and blow the
place up with a mortar round.
I enjoyed playing the Allies much more than the Germans, there were so many
more critical decisions to make, and there were some battles (many battles in
fact) you just _had_ to win. and keep on winning. The fighting at Groesbeek
and in Nijmegen was absolutely desperate, and the see-saw fighting in Arnhem
just nail biting. The Germans on Vet were a walkover (after Day 1), maybe I
should try them on Hero.
John Anderson
Hjalmar Gerber wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I assume there will be another patch . . . especially
> one that will rinse out the sticky glue that the first
> one, CC2.0a, introduced.
>
> Here are some more fixes for my wish list.
>
> 1) When staring down a Tiger or a Panther or whatever, with
> the 88's muzzle up against my tonsils, I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR
> THAT *&%#ing lame "Conserve ammunition!" whine. It is totally
> unrealistic. No-one in his right mind would conserve ammo
> when the next split second could be his last.
>
Yes, that should have been disabled for tank vs tank fighting. It would
be rare to meet a tank crew that would save their last few rounds on the
off chance they could get a flank shot when they've got a Tiger staring
them down.
> 2) Campaign: Things go well for then 101st. XXX Corps moves
> north. Germans attack with the tanks from hell at Schijndel
> Dunes and Road. Paratroopers are hard-pressed, bazookas are
> no longer available (though the points are), AND SUPPLY TO THE
> NORTH IS CUT OFF. . . yet XXX Corps refuses to send tanks to
> restore their own supply line ??????????? Huh ?
>
> These are the lastest items on my wish list. RSVP.
>
> Happy Hanukkah. Merry CHRISTmas.
>
> Hjalmar Gerber
> _______________
You get tanks either 7 hours later, or at the start of the next day. It
takes time for XXX Corps to move their armor reserves into position to
assist. These defensive positions were solely maintained by the AB
Divisions until the German attack actually started, then the armor
assests were sent in.
Cory Muzyka
On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:51:30 -0600, John Anderson
<warg...@atomic.com> scribbled:
>Hjalmar Gerber wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> I assume there will be another patch . . . especially
>> one that will rinse out the sticky glue that the first
>> one, CC2.0a, introduced.
>
>Yes, that should have been disabled for tank vs tank fighting. It would
>be rare to meet a tank crew that would save their last few rounds on the
>off chance they could get a flank shot when they've got a Tiger staring
>them down.
John - *is* there a plan for a second patch, or have you guys signed
off on this game after one patch?
...c
-------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Cory Muzyka
Zadall Systems Group
Vancouver, BC, Canada
My opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
(If you MUST mail me, use ROT-13 to decode my email address)
Forbes Robertson
M E Rapier <M.Ra...@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
> I enjoyed playing the Allies much more than the Germans, there were so many
> more critical decisions to make, and there were some battles (many battles in
> fact) you just _had_ to win. and keep on winning. The fighting at Groesbeek
> and in Nijmegen was absolutely desperate, and the see-saw fighting in Arnhem
> just nail biting. The Germans on Vet were a walkover (after Day 1), maybe I
> should try them on Hero.
>
I also found the Germans on Vet tedious, by day 3 the allies were
nowhere, XXX corp were at Son Town losing 6 tanks in each battle, and
the airborne rolled back on all fronts. But I still had to fight on.
Gave up after killing the Poles.
Tried Hero as Germans, approx 1-2 units avaiable on each map on day 1,
no chance to do anything against the hordes of Allied troops. Must admit
I got bored with this early on day 2.
Now I am trying a German W v VS campaign, which seems a bit more
balenced, havent gotten very far yet -- Have lost most day 1 battles --
but unlike Hero I felt I had a small chance -- and managed to inflict
some casualties.
One thing I have noticed playing the Germans is that 1st Airborne dont
seem very keen to get to Arnhem Bridge. They keep going for 4 hour
ceasfires -- even if my single German unit surrended without causing any
damage to them.
Forbes
Robert A. Belflower
Anti-tank guns CAN be placed in building. This is probably unrealistic, but
the game does allow you to do it. They then enjoy a tremendous defensive
advantage, and usually get the first shot on enemy armor.
Robert A. Belflower
What does the first patch fix or change? I just downloaded from a game
magazine, but haven't installed it yet.
Rob
Robert A. Belflower
belf...@worldnetla.net
http://users.worldnetla.net/~belflowr/index.htm
Matt
Don't install it - it's not worth it. The patch was supposed to fix the
inhuman accurcay (more of a sixth sense, really) of the AI mortars, and
improve tank movement. The mortars did improve, but the tanks didn't,
and the patch has bugs - the german infantry now has a tendency to waste
their anti-tank weapons firing uselessly at infantry.
Gary R Eng
Useless my ass. Those panzerfausts attacks are like short-range
mortars or long-range grenades: they take out 2-3 men in the area, and
injure several others. I've lost entire Bren squads to single
panzerfaust attacks. It pisses me off -- after the patch I can no
longer take and hold buildings because of panzerfausts are flying
around about as often as grenades and wiping out my squads in the
buildings. Only HE from german tank fire causes more casualties.
-Gary Eng
Matt
That's strange. When I played as Germans the 'fausts did no damage that
I could see. Regardless, the patch unbalances the game and it's a piece
of crap.
Matt
Keith Hemmelman
Matt wrote:
> That's strange. When I played as Germans the 'fausts did no damage
> that
> I could see. Regardless, the patch unbalances the game and it's a
> piece
> of crap.
>
> Matt
The patch unbalances the game? Which side are you playing as? I play
as the Allies on Veteran level and have only played the game with the
patch installed. I find the German mortars to be very accurate! (Even
on troops I have moving fast!) Also, the Germans always seem to outman
and outgun the Allies in all but the first few missions of the Grand
Campaign. Their mortars also seem to have 'all-seeing' eyes. After
all, if I have my mortar team hidden at the back of the map behind
several 3 story buildings, you'd think they wouldn't be among the first
to get killed by the German mortars. But somehow, those pesky German
mortar teams always "know" where they are and manage to wipe out my
mortar teams like clockwork. And is it me, or do the German mortars cut
thru buildings like a hot knife thru butter? I never seem to be able to
kill Germans with my mortars when they are in buildings, but yet, they
smoke my guys right and left even when I have them hidden right from the
start.
And I'd hate to think how destructive the Panzerfaust teams were
'before' the patch came out! Geeze, the game is hard enough as it is.
(Were the Allies so poorly supplied and constantly outgunned in the real
life version of these battles?) I suppose it makes a difference what
level you're playing at and what side you play as, but so far, I find
the Grand Campaign to be exceptionally balanced in the German favor.
The first 5 or 6 battles went fairly well, but after that, they seem to
have an endless number of requisition points for each battle! Hopefully
with practice I'll get better, but there's just so many of those guys!!
Keith Hemmelman
kei...@sd.cybernex.net
Ronald Gretz
Boy,
It is really interesting to see the commentary on the game both prior to the
patch (where everyone bitched about how sorry the mortar AI was, and the bad
tank path finding) and now, after they have gotten a patch, how everyone seems
to bitch about how the infantry uses its panzerfausts against the infantry.
I have played this campaign game through front to back several times now, both
as the Allies and as the Germans. Frankly, I agree the mortar AI sucked
before the patch (the laser guided smart rounds were attributed to a logic
flaw in the code where the mortar targeting was using the sniper targeting
subroutine) and you could never survive computer barrages; and the tank
pathfinding AI left alot to be desired as well. With the patch, now the
mortar AI clearly works the way it is supposed to and I very less often lose
my AT or mortar batteries to one shot wonders. More often than not, the
computer blows the majority of its ammo, and sometimes all of it trying to
knock out my units, but it does gain the suppression effect that mortars were
designed to do. The fix to the mortar AI clearly levels the playing field
insofar as indirect fire is concerned. Tank pathfinding is a little better
but I still do occasionally have problems due to minimum range requirements on
the main weapons which cause my tanks to dig donuts in the dirt trying to get
a shot.
Now, IMHO, regarding the panzerfaust thing; I find this much less an
inconvenience than I do the bad mortar AI that existed before the patch.
While the HE panzerfaust was designed as an infantry type weapon for use
against armor, that DOESN'T mean it couldn't be used against soft targets like
infantry. Give me a break, people. If your bullets were running low and the
only weapon you had laying around which might take out that machinegun was an
HE panzerfaust, you would probably use it too. I have yet to see German
troops fire their panzerfausts in the game at infantry where they have armor
in their line of sight. I am not implying that condition may not be
occurring, in fact it might (which would then be a serious logic error). But
in all honesty, again, IMO, I would rather have my German troops fire that
panzerfaust at some oncoming infantry than to have half my units wiped out by
20 laser guided mortar rounds...
Patrick C Miller
r.worldnet> <34A6D1...@columbia.edu> <34a82381...@news.aa.net>
<34A9106E...@sts.sabre.com>:
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network
Distribution:
Ronald Gretz (ronald...@sts.sabre.com) wrote:
(Snip)
: Now, IMHO, regarding the panzerfaust thing; I find this much less an
: inconvenience than I do the bad mortar AI that existed before the patch.
: While the HE panzerfaust was designed as an infantry type weapon for use
: against armor, that DOESN'T mean it couldn't be used against soft
: targets like infantry.
I have read many accounts of German infantry firing Panzerfausts as
anti-personnel weapons. They worked well against buildings and in forests
where they could have a shrapnel effect.
: Give me a break, people. If your bullets were running low and the
: only weapon you had laying around which might take out that machinegun
: was an HE panzerfaust, you would probably use it too.
What I found unrealistic and unbalanced about CC2 before the patch was
the fact that Bazookas and PIATs would fire at enemy infantry while
Panzerfaust-armed infantry would save their rounds for tanks. Now that
infantry from both sides can use up its anti-tank capability against enemy
infantry, the game is more balanced and more historically accurate.
: I have yet to see German troops fire their panzerfausts in the game at
: infantry where they have armor in their line of sight.
I have not seen this either. When using Allied armor, I continue to
treat all German infantry as if it's armed with Panzerfausts. You have
to.
: I am not implying that condition may not be occurring, in fact it might
: (which would then be a serious logic error). But in all honesty, again,
: IMO, I would rather have my German troops fire that panzerfaust at some
: oncoming infantry than to have half my units wiped out by 20 laser
: guided mortar rounds...
I agree, although it should not be an either/or situation. IMO, both
changes have made the game better balanced and more realistic.
*****************************
Patrick C. Miller
pami...@plains.NoDak.edu
*****************************
Oliver Weber
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In the article " Re: CC2: Anti-Tank Guns ", "Robert A. Belflower"
<belf...@worldnetla.net> wrote on Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:21:05 -0600:
>Anti-tank guns CAN be placed in building. This is probably unrealistic,
but
Isn't. The PAKs are small enough to be hidden inside a building, provided
you can get them _into_ one. If you don't care about damage to the furniture
or the carpets <grin> it can be done (and it was done).
Yours,
Oliver Weber O-
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Windancer
"I really miss their heavy artillery. The only indirect fire you can
use is mortars. I think the exclusion of off-board artillery are a
mistake. Didn't they bring haubitzers in those glide planes, too? I
want haubitzers!"
Can you imagine the anger of requesting off map artillery, only to have it
turned down. Or more angering, have it delayed and off target. A fire
mission could swamp the player trying to adjust the fire on target, while
managing the battle. Finally the Artillery would be under the control of
the AI and wouldn't really fall into the small unit tactics that CC2 is
designed to be.
--
H King, EWC, USN (ret.)
It is better that a wise enemy should fear you
than that foolish friends should praise.
Quintus Fabius Maximus (218 B.C.)
M E Rapier
In article <1997122617...@pool1-29.netmatters.com>,
j.f.ro...@netmatters.co.uk says...
{snip}
>> just nail biting. The Germans on Vet were a walkover (after Day 1), maybe I
>> should try them on Hero.
{snip}
>Tried Hero as Germans, approx 1-2 units avaiable on each map on day 1,
>no chance to do anything against the hordes of Allied troops. Must admit
>I got bored with this early on day 2.
I'm trying Hero now - it is challenging to say the least. I actually won my
very first battle (Grosbeek LZ, Day 2) with the grand total of one PzIV and
two reserve infantry squads against what seemed to be the entire 82nd
airborne. The tank just did the standard open map 'wild west' tactic of
driving around the edge machinegunning everything that moved while his
infantry tried to shoot up my plucky reservists.
Otherwise it has been a case of fight and die, or hide and go for a ceasefire
(or fight a bit, and go for a ceasefire).
>Now I am trying a German W v VS campaign, which seems a bit more
>balenced, havent gotten very far yet -- Have lost most day 1 battles --
>but unlike Hero I felt I had a small chance -- and managed to inflict
>some casualties.
Yes, at least you don't have the Allies totally unbeatable in hand-to-hand
like you do on Hero, maybe I should try that.
>One thing I have noticed playing the Germans is that 1st Airborne dont
>seem very keen to get to Arnhem Bridge. They keep going for 4 hour
>ceasfires -- even if my single German unit surrended without causing any
>damage to them.
Yes, I've held them up in Arnhem suburbs for ages with a single hidden
sniper, and after kicking me out of Son they took a leisurely 4 hour coffee
break which gave me loads of time to blow the bridge.
I'll probably try a couple more days on Hero and see how it goes and then
switch to W v VS. N v VS was good fun as the Allies.
Frank
> I
> >computer plays Germans, his Reserve can maul two of my
> >rifle hits crawling toward it. When I play Germans,
> >Reserve kills little or breaks up. Same with tanks.
> >When computer is Germans, my tanks lose face-to-face
> >confrontations with Panzers always. When I am the Germans,
> >my Panzers win face-to-face confrontations about 50%.
>
> im actually beginning to believe the computer cheats.yesterday
> i played day 2 of grand xampaign on goosebeek heights,having won on
> day one.
> start of day2 germans had 2 panthers and one armoured vehicle.i had
> 4 piat teams, even when a atank came within 8 yards my piats couldnt kill it.
> the other piat teams were hiding but armoured vehicle seemed to know
> where they were.i played this battle over 4 times but got nowhere.the reason i
> think
> it cheats is at the start i hid all my infantry except piats at back of map
> well hidden behind trees.as soon as senario started they were morterbombed
> by germans. How did they know where they were? no way hey could of been seen
> helmet
>
> >--
But I've been playing CC2 as Germans on Hero difficulty. I'm playing Oosterbeek LZ. It is absurdly difficult. I won't go into the other levels and the craziness I've seen, except for on Groesbeek Farm the computer charged me, like, rushed me human-wave attack style with 52 troops, after a 1 hr ceasefire between Groesbeek LZ and Groesbeek Farm - at Groesbeek LZ I had 1 MarkIV and 1 sniper, the MkIV I'd kept after losing my infantry units (usually 1 or 2, even at the beginning of new days/resupply...and I'm on day 3, morning)...but I killed all the enemy units except for 1 x 81 mm mortar unit, 3 men, on Groes LZ, then on Groes Farm, he has 52 f**king men, some army some airborne, rushing my MrkIV and my sniper. The sniper died pretty quick despite my best efforts. Eventually I killed all the 52 enemy and went to the next map, Groes Heights. Now the computer does the same thing, crazy rushing attacks, incredibly aggressive play, bizarre actually, and he loses 35 men. This was after a 1 hour ceasefire. I got 2 extra points between the maps. He got enough for 35 men, mostly Bar units, rifle units, bazookas and MGs, but he literally just had them charge me, like Western Front WW1 style 'over the top lads'! Odd. But the differences in req points/resupply show how weighted hero mode is.
But now I'm on Oosterbeek LZ, have held the LZ1 and LZ2 VLs for about 5 or 6 battles now but can't take the f**king map because of the motherloving Gammon Bombs ! So I've got a MrkIV, and 1 inf unit (Schutzen) here too.
The enemy has a full contingent: 8 squads (I have counted them up) in the inf/main section, and a full 6 in the Support section. My last ceasefire was 4 hrs, he went for 7 hrs, so I get the 10 percent req point bonus I think, which adds up to....2 points. The problem is, I can't choose any new units, since they are all used up. So no sniper because the units are not available to choose.
Now, I go into game, he starts on my Schutzen with his mortars (no patch so they are smart mortars, laser guided accurate, they kill my guys within minutes - I try hiding them, I try putting them in the wood building, the stone building (3 story one) etc...but now he has taken the 3 story building in the last battle, so I can't put the poor guys anywhere safe. I can't trade them in for any other unit obviously either because, there are no more units.
In the game though, shit gets really crazy. Like, he sends his 3 Inch Mortars into the 3 story building, and lo and behold, he is firing mortar shells through the chimney ! Or something ! How the *&^! does someone fire mortars through the roof of a 3 story stone building ? Not content with that, he charges my tank...which, I should have added, is perpetually low on ammo. I have, when I start, 750 rounds in the Coax, 750 in the Bow MG, and I have 20 ap rounds, that is it. No different when I controlled all the VLs except for 1, now I control all the VLs exceept 2 (the cottage, and 'to Oosterbeek' are what I lost in the last battle).
So he charges his ad Hoc Rifles, his Vickers, his Snipers at my tank, no concern for him. Many of them get gunned down, but his use of smoke is masterful. He seems to have an endless supply. Maybe the mortar in the Cottage is actually just lighting the fireplace, and puffing smoke out the chimney, that would make sense !
The ad Hoc Rifles, usually a pretty shitty quality team in terms of morale, and relegated to holding VLs and stuff, unless you're playing someone on the Tourney House ladder (if that still exists) of course - but these ad Hoc Rifles are all action heroes. Like arnie in Commando ! They charge the tank and my poor Schutzen. Then they throw those Gammon Bombs. Typically when I use Gammon bombs, if they ever go off, they are rare to damage a tank - but every time this guy throws them, someetimes from outside of thee actual range (I thought GB range was 30 metres, he throws them from 50 metres), they blow up my tank. Without fail.
So obviously, mortars firing rounds from inside roofed houses is the ai getting an advantage - a huge one - but then, a sniper charges my tank. Now, I thought, "oh great, the Sniper will kill the tank now", in all this madness. Not so, thankfully. But what does the sniper do ? He charges in and ... yes, he takes the VL ! (Farm house, next to which I have the almost useless MkIV, which has run out of ammo).
So Snipers taking VLs, mortars shooting inside roofed buildings, unlimited ammo, smoke, moxy, courage, grit, resupply, req points, and the very opposite of all this for the Germans means, playing CC2 on Hero mode, as the Deutsch, is very tough. I am not complaining, although it sounds like it, I am enjoying it, but I just wanted to show how I've seen definite examples of the 'ai cheating' if you want to put it that way. Or gaining an advantage - I mean sometimes it is just patently absurd, but to be fair, I've had some excellent matches. My fight on Veghel Bridge was tops. I've won most maps except for Nijmegen City which is one of these human wave attack style maps again, but I've held on without losing so far, just by using cease fires....I lost Son (the initial map where they crawl out of the trenches, and you have the 1 x 88 gun), but for Son Bridge, I fought the computer to three or four cease fires, then I had to blow the bridge and flee. Oh, and Schindjel Dunes, I have lost that one routinely, after being pushed back.
So I think it should be interesting to see but I reckon it'll get a bit tedious soon, if I don't get some resupply beyond 18 points or so (which I was getting on supposedly judicious reinforcement days, I think that was supposed to be day 3 ? Or maybe it is day 4 when I get good reeinforcements ? I hope they will reinforce my ammo !).
Lots of fun though, seriously great game. I cannot imagine playing as the allies on Hero mode...must be nigh on impossible ! But I will play allies next, maybe tinker with the 'weak vs very strong' stuff, I loved the range of maps you get to play. So many cool maps and battles, I remember playing heaps when I was younger.
BTW for my skill level - I was at the Bottom of the Tournament House ladder for the year or so I was there, then around 1.5 year mark, I moved up 1 spot, to be second from the bottom. So not exactly a master of the game :) This was I think in 2008 or 2009, when I was on TH. Maybe a bit later - I think Homba was on top, but he might have been on top forever !
Cheers, looking forward to playing Last Stand arnhem. To think its been 15 years eh ? I always wanted CC3 or 4 to be set in the pacific, thats a shame we don't have any in the pacific or africa, the Euro theatre is cool (Market Garden being just a perfect sized operation for the game) but maybe something new would be good.
I didn't like the linear CC3 narrative, where even if you won every game as the Germans, you still lost the fricking war. They should have allowed you to alter the history, like in Market Garden in CC2.
I wonder if anyone will read this rambling nonsense. Sorry :)
Chuck
Chuck