MOO2: Ion Pulse Cannons, Best Defense?
Richard W. Albin
Please forgive me if I am asking a question that has been covered
before, but I have been away from this newsgroup for awhile.
I played a multiplayer game with my -friend- last night and he -killed-
me with heavy mount Ion Pulse Cannons (no computer players, huge
galaxy). One or two shots and my ships were completely -immobilized-.
What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
Thanks very much for your help.
Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
--------------------------------------
Alan Kohler
In article <330C75...@flash.net>, rwa...@flash.net says...
>
>Please forgive me if I am asking a question that has been covered
>before, but I have been away from this newsgroup for awhile.
>
>I played a multiplayer game with my -friend- last night and he -killed-
>me with heavy mount Ion Pulse Cannons (no computer players, huge
>galaxy). One or two shots and my ships were completely -immobilized-.
>What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
>early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
All other things being equal, you're talking beam defense. In general, that
means high speed and tech advances *agumented engines* and *inertial
stabizers*, in addition to the possibility of a racial defensive bonus. Once
you get a little more advanced, hard shields work great as they subtract
damage from every shot, and automated repair unit helps you get critical
systems back.
One way to get that high speed, is to NOT use battle pods. The more space you
use on your ships, the slower they will be. However, if you have the above
mentioned techs, you're generally better off using battle pods if you need to
fit the defensive techs.
--
* DO NOT AUTO REPLY TO THIS POST - MY REPLY TO LINE IS IN ANTI-SPAM MODE *
Alan D Kohler
hwk...@poky.srv.net
"Villains, I say to you now, knock off all that evil!" - the Tick
Richard W. Albin
Richard Wesson wrote:
>
> Ion pulse cannons are really nasty. They represent the best kill/weight
> ratio for a long time, and perhaps indefinitely, once you get to the
> autofire ion cannon stage.
>
> I had a grueling war against the Sakkra going. The best ships I had
> for quite a long time were battleships with
>
> 3 Hv Plasma Cannon (F)
> 10 Hv AF Ion Cannon (F)
> and some damage enhancers. (struct analyzer, Hi Energy Focus)
>
> Plain Hv Plasma did not work nearly as well.
>
> One of these ships could take out five Sakkra battleships in
> one turn (!) though the Sakkra ships were all equipped with Class VII
> shield, adamantium armor, other cool stuff like proton torpedoes (joke).
>
> The first Hv Plasma shots would knock down the shields of the ship in
> the first row. Two autofiring Hv Ion Cannons would blow up the battleship,
> which would explode, weakening the front shields of the ship behind it.
> Then the next two that ship, and so on.
>
> I had very good beam attack of course with Loknar and so on.
>
> It still amazed me to be blowing up 10 Sakkra battleships every round
> per battleship of mine. They would send 40 or 60 battleships, and
> my six battleships would clean them up in one round with maybe a few
> stragglers left. (BTW had Time Warp Facilitator too ...)
>
> Anyhow, things that are good against Ion Pulse Cannon:
> Intertial Stabilizer or Nullifier (+50 or +100 beam defense)
> Good commanders. I hope you have Survival Pods. "Fighter Pilot"
> and "Navigator" commanders are good.
> _GOOD SHIELDS_. Use Shield Capacitors plus Multiphased Shields if
> you have them. Any Ion Pulse damage that gets through shields has
> a chance of blowing you up.
> Take a turn out to rotate a stronger shield towards the IPC's if
> your facing shield is weak.
> Bigger ships have stronger shields for the same shield class; build
> bigger ships if there is a choice.
> DO NOT use Damper Field if you have it. 5 pts of damage out of a 20-point
> shot getting into your engines is fatal.
> DO use Battle Pods. I think your speed depends on the free space
> you have, NOT on the total weight of equipment you have.
> Speed adds beam defense; you may want Augmented Engines and try to get
> advanced drives as well.
> I believe good computers add beam defense.
>
> Or, blow up the enemy ships before they fire. Ion Pulse Cannons
> work very well for this; if they are space costly add a weapon that
> will knock down shields before the IPC's fire, like maybe Heavy
> Mass Drivers. Choose "Heavy" for your beam weapons; it lessens
> dissipation and range inaccuracy, and lets you kill immediately,
> so it's well worth it, despite the fact you get only 2/3 the nominal
> damage for the space.
>
> Good luck!
> Richard Wesson
> (wes...@cse.ogi.edu)
Here are some other suggestions I have received from e-mail today for
your consideration:
Guys -- Thanks so much for your replies to my MOO2 question about Ion
Pulse Cannons. Copies of all the replies to my e-mail received today
are presented below. Your advice is really appreciated. I'll try each
of these suggestions and let you know how they work out. Thanks again.
Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
David Ramsey wrote:
>
> There isn't much good defense from the ion pulse cannons. You can reduce
> their damage with better shields but that is about the only solution.
> (Reflection fields, if captured from the Guardian, ought to help too.) If
> you can get shield capacitors add those. And if you can get the ion pulse
> cannons, add those too. You may not get a shot off but if you do, he'll
> suffer as much as you.
>
> This is one of the problems with the current implementation of the game. A
> true ship initiative system, with draws going to the defender, would really
> help reduce this sort of thing. But ion pulse cannons (and later, plasmas)
> are really WAY too powerful for the tech level where they first appear. They
> should either be reduced in power or moved further up the research tree. As
> it is now, either of these weapons can mean the end of the game for the
> player who is ready to go on the offensive as soon as he gets them.
>
> Sorry, but there aren't many solutions to the ion pulse cannon. Shields are
> about it but you probably don't have great shields yet. It's just another
> example of game imbalance that MPS needs to fix.
>
> >Thanks very much for your help.
> >
> >Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
> >--------------------------------------
> >
> >
> ***************************************************
> Why do programmers never have time to do it right *
> but always have time to do it over? *
> - dra...@neosoft.com *
> ***************************************************
From:
<lee_j...@VNET.IBM.COM> (Lee Johnson)
Unless I'm not remembering things correctly: Shields. Class I won't
be enough; take Mass Drivers instead, and work on getting Class III
shields as quickly as possible. Also consider counterattacking
Mr. Pulse Cannons with several squadrons of Interceptors; Mass Drivers
make these pretty effective in the early game--and his HV Ion Pulse
Cannons can't be used as point defense weapons.
--
Regards,
Lee Johnson ( Internet: Lee_J...@vnet.ibm.com VNET: LJOHNSON at
TOROLAB )
AIX Compiler Development / IBM Software Solutions Toronto Laboratory
From:
ade...@netcom.com (The Searcher of Knowledge)
Yah early on in a game they can be a pain in the butt. You were lucky
to
just get immobilized.. Hvy Ion's often have a habit of destroying your
ships drive.. and when that happens.. *BOOM* no more ship. Only defence
I can really think is shields, Ion's don't do that much damage against
a
ship that is shielded.
From:
Leonard Dickens <leo...@alw.nih.gov>
The best defense against IPCs in early to mid-game?
My 2c worth, having never played a human: try beam defense. The enemy
should be using, what, electronic computers and battle scanners? So,
you get your reasonably fast ship (ion drive on a DD or CA), put in an
inertial stabilizer... should get BDCV at least 100%; he will have a
very tough time hitting unless he gets real close. It is thus your job
to stand off and pelt him with missiles or rear-mounted mass drivers.
Then, when you hit the map edge, retreat and live to fight another day.
Augmented engines and skilled crews will help.
And of course, Class IIIs should help a lot, especially with the weak
hits that he should be getting with his low to-hit chances. Hmm, let me
back up and explain that: I recall seeing somewhere an explanation of
how the chance to hit works, with the key aspect being that the *same*
number is used as the to-hit roll and the damage roll. If you have a
75% chance to hit, and you "roll" a 75, then you hit *and* you do 75% of
the weapon's max damage. Thus, driving down the enemy's to-hit chance
not only reduces number of hits, but also the average damage per-hit.
And this makes shields relatively more effective. Can anyone verify
this? (Note: this is another reason why mass drivers rock: no
variability in damage at low to-hit chances!)
-Leonard
From:
Ryan Yuen <yyu...@ccsf.cc.ca.us>
Not a thing. All you can do is do the attacking instead of getting
attacked, that way, at least you'll get the 1st shot.
Interesting and helpful advice from you all. Thanks.
Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
----------------------------------------
Doug Jacobs
Richard W. Albin (rwa...@flash.net) wrote:
: Please forgive me if I am asking a question that has been covered
: before, but I have been away from this newsgroup for awhile.
: I played a multiplayer game with my -friend- last night and he -killed-
: me with heavy mount Ion Pulse Cannons (no computer players, huge
: galaxy). One or two shots and my ships were completely -immobilized-.
: What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
: early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
: Thanks very much for your help.
Richard Wesson
Gerrit Kirkwood
> One way to get that high speed, is to NOT use battle pods. The more space you
> use on your ships, the slower they will be. However, if you have the above
> mentioned techs, you're generally better off using battle pods if you need to
> fit the defensive techs.
>
I have to disagree - USE battle pods (these ARE the things that increase
total space by 1.5, right? its been about a month since I've played) -
but do NOT use most of the recently freed-up space. the speed seems to
be closely related to the amount of FREE space, not the amount of USED
space - I've seen speeds of my ships jump dramatically once I've added
battle pods, until I fill up all the new space.
Doug Jacobs
Doug Jacobs (dja...@rahul.net) wrote:
[nothing]
Whoops. Sorry about that. My connection went crazy while I was trying
to write a response...must of crashed and posted the most recent auto
save or something...
Anyways... Defense against ion cannons... Well, shields will help
to lessen the damage your neighboring ships will take if one ship
loses its engine core and goes BOOM. Reinforced hull, or whatever that
thing is called (triples structure...) may help as well.
I really think the ion cannons are way too powerful (way way way...)
especially when you get auto-firing heavy continuous ones. They
even work against the Orion Guardian (which I think is a bug.)
John Mueller
I really find that a combination of Plasma Cannons, Phasors, and
Disrupters work best. For a long time I was just using Plasma Cannons
and Phasors, but that combination didn't work well on a planet with
barrier shields. Unfortunately, while Disrupters work great against
planets, they don't work very well against ships and their size cost is
too high.
John Mueller
Adam Littman
Heavy armor (the special from advanced construction) blocks armor piercing
effects of weapons. I am not sure if Ion cannon counts as armor piercing. I
seem to remember taking my heavily armed fleet of Ion ships out against a CP
and getting stomped when he had heavy armor. Ion cannons do not affect
structure or armor. Once the armor piercing is gone they are shield lowerers
and that is all. Do not tell your friend you are planning this. If you can
make a ship with a warp interdictor as well to cut off retreat your friend
will have to scramble to recover when his ultimate weapon fizzles.
In article <330C75...@flash.net>, "Richard W. Albin" <rwa...@flash.net>
Olli T T Mannisto
Doug Jacobs (dja...@rahul.net) wrote:
> loses its engine core and goes BOOM. Reinforced hull, or whatever that
> thing is called (triples structure...) may help as well.
It does not help at all - Ion cannons pass all armor and structure.
Xentorium or not.
Since Antarans are immune to ion cannons, I think it'd be fair if damper
field negated ion cannon (Of course that'd just lead to horribly skewed
situation if you had it and the other guy didn't..)
--
/ Cocaine is God's way of saying you've got too much money! \
|-----------Another day in paradise.. And then I came down.-------------|
\ oll...@evitech.fi | Finger for PGP-key. /
Olli T T Mannisto
Adam Littman (al...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> Heavy armor (the special from advanced construction) blocks armor piercing
> effects of weapons. I am not sure if Ion cannon counts as armor piercing. I
HA does not help at all :-)
Ion cannons pass through any armor or structure just like that.
Just take primary battery of heavy hitters to get those shields down from
couple of first ships (drive overload will do in the rest)..
John Mueller
> I really think the ion cannons are way too powerful (way way way...)
> especially when you get auto-firing heavy continuous ones. They
> even work against the Orion Guardian (which I think is a bug.)
It's a good thing they do work on the Orion Guardian. It doesn't really
pay if you get Orion too late in the game. After all, what do you
really get if your technology level is too high? Another Gaia planet
isn't all that big of a deal. I think the power of the ion cannon is
about right; otherwise, you wouldn't have much of a chance getting Orion
when it really counts.
John Mueller
stoic
Avoid the whole problem and play with tactical combat off.
"Richard W. Albin" <rwa...@flash.net> wrote:
>Please forgive me if I am asking a question that has been covered
>before, but I have been away from this newsgroup for awhile.
>I played a multiplayer game with my -friend- last night and he -killed-
>me with heavy mount Ion Pulse Cannons (no computer players, huge
>galaxy). One or two shots and my ships were completely -immobilized-.
>What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
>early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
>Thanks very much for your help.
>Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
>--------------------------------------
-----------
I think, therefore I am. What's your excuse?
st...@mindspring.com
Doug Jacobs
Olli T T Mannisto (oll...@evitech.fi) wrote:
: Doug Jacobs (dja...@rahul.net) wrote:
: > loses its engine core and goes BOOM. Reinforced hull, or whatever that
: > thing is called (triples structure...) may help as well.
: It does not help at all - Ion cannons pass all armor and structure.
: Xentorium or not.
The reason you can't shoot the Antarans is because of the Xentronium
armor. One game one of the CP's got Orion (and Xentronium) which was
a problem for my Ion-cannon laden fleet :( Fortunatly the armor didn't
help the CP design better ships... DoomStars with multiple stacks of
nuclear missiles don't do much against things like plasma & disruptor
cannons.
Bill Huffman
In article <330C75...@flash.net>,
Richard W. Albin <rwa...@flash.net> wrote:
>Please forgive me if I am asking a question that has been covered
>before, but I have been away from this newsgroup for awhile.
>
>I played a multiplayer game with my -friend- last night and he -killed-
>me with heavy mount Ion Pulse Cannons (no computer players, huge
>galaxy). One or two shots and my ships were completely -immobilized-.
>What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
>early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
>
>Thanks very much for your help.
>
>Richard :^) mailto:rwa...@flash.net
>--------------------------------------
I think the question does seem to bring up the issue that MOO2
offense and defense are not really very balanced. Offense is
way more powerful than defense.
Erich
Bill Huffman wrote:
>
> >--------------------------------------
> An excellent question, I'd think Reinforced Hull and shields.
>
> I think the question does seem to bring up the issue that MOO2
> offense and defense are not really very balanced. Offense is
> way more powerful than defense.
In MOO2 I always find that the best offense is a good offense.
.
.
.
Its also a good defense.
Erich
Adam Shiffman
Richard W. Albin (rwa...@flash.net) wrote:
: What is the -best defense- against Ion Pulse Cannons during the
: early-to-mid game period when your opponent gets -his- shots off first?
It would be nice if there were more defensive options in MOO2, something
like:
Plasma Field Generator - Reduces damage from Plasma and Ion based weapons
by 1/2, completely negates effects of Plasma based Weapons when used in
combination with Hard Shields.
--
---
Adam Shiffman
http://www.ccnet.com/~adams
Rune Fostervoll
Well, the best defence against ion cannons is:
A: playing a +50 beam defence, warlord, hyperdimensional race and research
augmented engines & inertial stabilizer. (At first).
He can't possibly hit you.
B: Shields. Good, big, strong shields. Multiphased, shield capacitor, hardened
class V+ shields really help.
C: Armor piercing auto firing mass drivers isn't half bad in the beginning
either. Going for force field tech a lot means you get good shields, and
the gauss cannon is an OK intermediate weapon once it gets AP, AF, Hv.
D: Hard armor prevents armor piercing - does it prevent ion cannons too?
I doubt it, but I am not sure.
E: Finally, ion cannons does not work at all against planets, either.
--
Rune Fostervoll, run...@ifi.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Olli T T Mannisto
Rune Fostervoll (run...@ifi.uio.no) wrote:
> D: Hard armor prevents armor piercing - does it prevent ion cannons too?
> I doubt it, but I am not sure.
Nope.
Ion cannons would be incredibly easy to fix, though - Just remove the
explosion caused by drive overload and these weapons would be a *lot* more
reasonable.. Of course, they'd still be be-all-end-all weapons as they
would remove any fleet into so much junk one can pick off at leisure, but
it still would prevent the option of nuking ten ships with single DS at the
initial turn.
The improved cloaking device helps as you get to at least have single turn
with that one :-)
Adam Littman
I would use them alot more if they didn't blow ships up. Then I could blast
all the ships of the enemy into uselessness and capture them. As it is I have
to use assault shuttles.
The best game of MOO2 I ever played had 4 empires equal to my own sending
fleets of 5-10 doomstars each against me, 1-4 fleets per empire. I hadn't
invented doomstars yet so I lost 3-4 planets to bombardment while I picked off
a few doomstars each attack with a few heavily shielded titans armed only with
assault shuttles and hit and run tactics. In the end I stole over 30 doomstars
not counting the ones I left to fight their own fleets until they were
destroyed. And then the fun began as I started taking empires (telepathy
rules)
In article <5f4mga$i...@evitech.evitech.fi>, oll...@evitech.fi (Olli T T
Chris Byler
On 27 Feb 1997 21:15:22 +0200, oll...@evitech.fi (Olli T T Mannisto)
wrote:
>Rune Fostervoll (run...@ifi.uio.no) wrote:
>> D: Hard armor prevents armor piercing - does it prevent ion cannons too?
>> I doubt it, but I am not sure.
>Nope.
>Ion cannons would be incredibly easy to fix, though - Just remove the
>explosion caused by drive overload and these weapons would be a *lot* more
>reasonable.. Of course, they'd still be be-all-end-all weapons as they
>would remove any fleet into so much junk one can pick off at leisure, but
>it still would prevent the option of nuking ten ships with single DS at the
>initial turn.
The best defense against IPC's is strong shields. IPC's do very low
base damage relative to their cost, so if you have good shields, they
will be hard for the enemy to penetrate with such low-damage weapons.
Inertial Stabilizer is also very helpful - they can't damage what they
can't hit.
>The improved cloaking device helps as you get to at least have single turn
>with that one :-)
Phasing cloak? Against IPC? Talk about your uneven tech levels...
--
Chris Byler cby...@okra.deltast.edu
"An elective despotism was not the government we fought for."
-- Thomas Jefferson, _Notes on the State of Virginia_
Olli T T Mannisto
Chris Byler (cby...@REMOVE-TO-REPLY.okra.deltast.edu) wrote:
> The best defense against IPC's is strong shields. IPC's do very low
> base damage relative to their cost, so if you have good shields, they
> will be hard for the enemy to penetrate with such low-damage weapons.
Which is what that primary battery of heavy-hitting disruptors are for!
Or in case of DS design, banks 1 to 4..
In the stage when you can fit half a dozen ion cannons into a titan, your
primary beam weapons will eat any old class x shields for breakfast.
> Inertial Stabilizer is also very helpful - they can't damage what they
> can't hit.
Not much good against moleculatronic computers + battle scanners + few heroes..
> >The improved cloaking device helps as you get to at least have single turn
> >with that one :-)
> Phasing cloak? Against IPC? Talk about your uneven tech levels...
IPC's are late-game weapons in any case.