Harpoon Classic or Harpoo
daniel...@empire-east.com
>Internet: sd...@ix.netcom.com
>Yeah, I liked the original Harpoon. What eventually stopped me playing
>(in addition to the brain-dead AI) was the way missiles are modelled --
>apart from the lack of ECM, the fact that it treats a whole group of
>missiles as a single "target" really screws up the entire problem of
>allocating air defenses within a task group, and completely negates the
>advantage of the Aegis system.
Well, scott we can agree there, but to be practical, what game truly
has a decent AI?
The original Harpoon did over simplify the missles, I do not know
if you got Harpoon classic fro alliance who updated it in ways, fixed
bugs and spiffed up the interface, but at least THAT forces in missle
reloads so if one fires too many, you may find ;) your SAMs to
be busy reloading while Cpu has a attack coming in, also
ships, have to in classic re-load the tomahawks, etc too,
so they(alliance) did make missles a little more realistic at least
in how fire them.
The early scenarios with refueling now have refueling loadouts and
they work, so Classic Harpoon is a improvement over the original
360 product.
>Geez, I wish I could help you. I've heard one poster describe one that
>I'd never heard of (are you out there?), but aside from that, I really
>don't know of a computer game on the subject of modern naval warfare
>that's really worth the investment of time and money.
The AI in any game is a problem, just no way to really program a
decent AI it seems.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Before the dark ages, before, the Empire" - Obe Wan
daniel...@empire-east.com
BE>I've been considering getting Harpoon II MultiMedia, although I've played
>nether Harpoon nor Harpoon II. Given the complexity that I've heard about
>Harpoon II, do you think that I should get Harpoon Classic first as an
>introduction to the Harpoon system? Any opinions appreciated. Thanks,
Classic is better for a game not overloaded with graphics, etc,
Harpoon 2 when battles form can slow to a crawl.
* SLMR 2.1a * "How typical" - C3P0
daniel...@empire-east.com
>Internet: three...@aol.com
TH>HarpoonII is an accurate simulation of Modern Naval Warfare. It is not an
>arcade game, shot'um up. It takes thought and planning. Obviously, it is
>above some peoples ability to handle. Isn't that right Scott.
Actually I have both and Harpoon 2 is too much for a 386DX-33.
Harpoon classic takes as much thought, it just lacks the extra fancy
graphics that eats up memory and all ;)
* SLMR 2.1a * "Would it help if I got out and pushed?" - Leia
daniel...@empire-east.com
>series of games that represents modern naval warfare? Be
>articulate Mr. Orr and give indepth descriptions of the features
>that make this "mythical game" outshine Harpoon.
Harpoon Classic is updated version of Original Harpoon which was
based on the Harpoon Board game, Classic does not have the fancy
graphics nor the problems with memory(in Windows version)
althrough classic if run big scenarios may demand 600k low memory.
Harpoon 2 needs be configured w/o a memory manager, it runs its own
and alot depends on your system, it can run slow or fast depending on
system.
* SLMR 2.1a * "We seem to be made to suffer, it's out lot in life" - C3
daniel...@empire-east.com
>Internet: bob...@holly.ColoState.EDU
>: security studies. And I don't _own_ any arcade games (unless I got
>: them as free samples). You can take your patronizing remarks and stick
>: them up the tailpipe missile launchers of your aircraft. :)
;) I would not call either classic Harpoon or Harpoon 2 Arcade
games, that shows you do not have a real idea of what
is a arcade game.
Both are Computer Simulations, and Classic is simpler to run vs
Harpoon 2, I have 360's Harpoon, their Harpoon 2 which HURTS to
run, and Classic Harpoon, which is 360s version worked over and
enhanced.
Their all games and I will admit neither are a 100 pct REALISTIC
sim of naval/air action, but thats not what they were made for,
their GAMES.
But! Please NOT *Arcade* games ;)
* SLMR 2.1a * "It isn't friendly, that's for sure" - Han Solo
daniel...@empire-east.com
RR>I have played and enjoyed Harpoon I, because despite the flaws which
>there are many it has been IMHO opinion one of the best attempts
>so far to produce such a game for the PC. As to Harpoon II, no I
>have not played it, but my issue is not whether it is a good or
>bad game rather it is Mr. Orrs cheap shot review method that was
>more flame bait than informative.
Harpoon 2 needs a system with more then 4 megs memory, and perhaps
at least a 486 to really run good, I liked it well enough except
that despite its Min requirments it would slow up with fights to
the point it was CRAWLING, on my 386DX-33 4 meg memory.
Classic harpoon is not same as original harpoon I, you use 360s
version? Or alliances? Alliance updated it, and improved the
interface.
Alliance also put out a Windows version that gets past the memory
limits 360s had.
>>HarpoonI was fine, a great game, but HarpoonII is a joke it is still full
>>bugs . It has a bad interface and you need a 686 200 mhz computer to run
>>it. The game truly sucks.
RR>Thank you for your words of wisdom, but like Mr. Orr you seem to be
>unable to back it up with indepth information. The it has been posted
>a million times is nothing more than an excuse to be a lazy poster.
What facts? I tried run it, harpoon 2 requires you not run qemm or
Emm386, and they even suggest not use himem.sys, it takes over all
the empty space of your HD to use as a virtual memory disk,
once your regular memory is used, it starts swaping out and THAT is
where it turns into a snail.
There is alot of justified complaints about it, since
it really seems to need a machine with a faster processor and ALOT
of MEMORY, like 32 megs.
I have played Harpoon 2, you have Not.
>At the minium you could at least point the individuals to Faq's
>reviews etc that will give the person the deeper background to decide
>if your opinion is a valid yardstick. One persons trash is anothers
>treasure and the "it sucks reviews" in all its forms does nothing
>to tell the person whether the game will be treasure or trash in
There are FAQ's on the services (Aol,Ci$,etc)
no one is going to bother to post them, you can get them if that
interested.
* SLMR 2.1a * "In my expierence there is no such thing as luck" - Obe W
daniel...@empire-east.com
>Internet: three...@aol.com
TH>HarpoonII has a smother interface, a more accurate and up to date
^^^^^^^
Yup it sure smothers a 386dx-33...turns it into a c-64 in
performance.
>is always in kick wargamer off the map mode) The AI will defeat you. You
>can play from Show All to Full Reality/Enforce Real Time (Yes, no more
>pausing the game to shot down all those missles with machine guns when
>they are 5 meters from the ship) I beleive these are all very nice
>advantages.
TH>Rick
And all that demands so much that it smothers the processors and is
too much for the averajge persoms amount of memory, I am not saying
it is a bad game, but if it runs poorly on a 4 meg 386DX-33, it is
not a game you can advertise the way it is, It demands too much and
needs alot of memory.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Don't underestimate the force" - Darth Vader
Robert Ruth
you are replying to. The material quoted is Mr. Orr's not mine.
Nobody enjoys seeing their name credited to statements which they
did not make or agree with.
Thank You.
Robert Ruth
bob...@holly.colostate.edu
Robert Ruth
>
> >there are many it has been IMHO opinion one of the best attempts
> >so far to produce such a game for the PC. As to Harpoon II, no I
> >have not played it, but my issue is not whether it is a good or
> >bad game rather it is Mr. Orrs cheap shot review method that was
> >more flame bait than informative.
>
> Harpoon 2 needs a system with more then 4 megs memory, and perhaps
> at least a 486 to really run good, I liked it well enough except
> that despite its Min requirments it would slow up with fights to
> the point it was CRAWLING, on my 386DX-33 4 meg memory.
>
> Classic harpoon is not same as original harpoon I, you use 360s
> version? Or alliances? Alliance updated it, and improved the
> interface.
> Alliance also put out a Windows version that gets past the memory
> limits 360s had.
I had the original, but now use the Alliance CD and yes I agree that they
did alot to improve the interface. I use the DOS version since being
a user of windows since the original release IMHO games that don't
use it have less problems, but please let's not turn this into another
OS debate thread ;-)
>
> >>HarpoonI was fine, a great game, but HarpoonII is a joke it is still full
> >>bugs . It has a bad interface and you need a 686 200 mhz computer to run
> >>it. The game truly sucks.
>
>RR>Thank you for your words of wisdom, but like Mr. Orr you seem to be
> >unable to back it up with indepth information. The it has been posted
> >a million times is nothing more than an excuse to be a lazy poster.
>
> What facts? I tried run it, harpoon 2 requires you not run qemm or
> Emm386, and they even suggest not use himem.sys, it takes over all
> the empty space of your HD to use as a virtual memory disk,
> once your regular memory is used, it starts swaping out and THAT is
> where it turns into a snail.
Not good, but common in some respects. Many games do not like Qemm or
Emm386 if they have their own memory control systems. Considering
all the eye candy (I have seen Harpoon II run) it is not suprising
that it goes for the hard drive for virtual memory.
>
> There is alot of justified complaints about it, since
> it really seems to need a machine with a faster processor and ALOT
> of MEMORY, like 32 megs.
>
> I have played Harpoon 2, you have Not.
I did not state otherwise. Reread the full passage from my original
post. I pointed out that just saying a game sucks is uninformative
to those who have not played it and the "it has been posted a million
times" excuse for not giving information to back it is just plain
poor posting practice. "Sucks" besides being a poor choice of words
in any case, can mean anything from poor quality game to the player
not having an intrest or skills to play it.
The original poster already indicated he had not read the million other
posts on the subject by the question he posed.
>
> >At the minium you could at least point the individuals to Faq's
> >reviews etc that will give the person the deeper background to decide
> >if your opinion is a valid yardstick. One persons trash is anothers
> >treasure and the "it sucks reviews" in all its forms does nothing
> >to tell the person whether the game will be treasure or trash in
>
> There are FAQ's on the services (Aol,Ci$,etc)
> no one is going to bother to post them, you can get them if that
> interested.
I have already posted actual directions to ftp and www sites for people
who want those sources of information. Nobody asked you to post them
in the group.
Bob Ruth
bob...@holly.colostate.edu
Scott Orr
writes:
>
>RR>Subject: Re: Harpoon Classic or Harpoon II?
> >Internet: bob...@holly.ColoState.EDU
>
> >: security studies. And I don't _own_ any arcade games (unless I
got
> >: them as free samples). You can take your patronizing remarks and
stick
> >: them up the tailpipe missile launchers of your aircraft. :)
>
>
> ;) I would not call either classic Harpoon or Harpoon 2 Arcade
> games, that shows you do not have a real idea of what
> is a arcade game.
>
Scott Orr
taxh...@delphi.com
they designed Harpoon II. They focused too much on making the game
"realistic" by trying to accurately model things like sonar contacts,
missile locks, ECM and the like. Using complicated formulas for all
of these calculations, combined with the SVGA graphics, placed a huge
load on the processor to do all the calculations in real time. They
overlooked that what gamers want is realism in result (i.e. if I fire
10 Phoenix missiles, I should shoot down the appropriate number of
enemy aircraft), not necessarily realism in underlying computational
algorithms (i.e. number of enemy planes shot down depends upon 487
factors, many of which are offsetting or of minor impact). Of course,
a few grognards will then complain that (I dove my submarine to 3287
feet, set speed to zero, and turned on my Mark VII anti-torpedo unit,
so that the Soviet L-29846 torpedo, which uses the AD-346 sonar
guidance unit, could not possibly have hit my silent Seawolf class
sub), but at least the rest of us could play the game on the compouter
we already own.
What Harpooners would really like is a system in which we could say
"I want the HARMs from my F-4s, the Harpoons from my F-18s and the
Walleyes from my A-6Es to arrive at the target at the same time, and
have the computer tell us when to launch each type of plane so that
they arrive at the apprpriate distance from the target at the right time to
launch their missiles. That would take advantage of the computer's
processing power to make the game less tedious for the player, without
removing any of the need for strategy. You still need to make crucial
decisions like how many fighters to fly CAP over your carrier, how many
to fly escort for the bombers, how many planes to have in the air at
any time so you always have some ready in reserve for unexpected
attacks or targets of opportunity.
In focusing on the mechanisms "underneath" the game that the player
doesn't see directly (like sonar modelling) instead of working more
on the user interface, 360 created a game whose mechanics do not
appear to work much differently than Harpoon I while requiring enormous
hardware capacities to work at all. But then again, this was designed
by the people who created PATRIOT, so I guess no one should expect
them to have done things differently.
Scott Blaha
>
> As with many of their games, 360 made a crucial error in focus when
> they designed Harpoon II.
>
> "I want the HARMs from my F-4s, the Harpoons from my F-18s and the
> Walleyes from my A-6Es to arrive at the target at the same time, and
> have the computer tell us when to launch each type of plane so that
> they arrive at the apprpriate distance from the target at the right time to
> to fly escort for the bombers, how many planes to have in the air at
> any time so you always have some ready in reserve for unexpected
> attacks or targets of opportunity.
>
REALLY like! _I_ would like a game that doesn't crash. Mainly, that's
about it. Faster would be nice, but I can live with some degradation
in speed if the results are seemingly accurate. What you _seem_ to want
is a game you can turn on, choose a side, and sit back and watch. In
that case television would be a less expensive hobby. (:
Scott B.
Saul H. Jacobs
>Path: nnrp2.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!globalnews.globalvision.net!news
>From: Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net>
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>Subject: Re: Harpoon Classic or Harpoo
>Organization: Global Vision Incorporated
>Lines: 23
>Message-ID: <3v5pa1$l...@globalnews.globalvision.net>
>References: <COSYIB...@Empire-East.com> <hlJiheo....@delphi.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: c70.globalvision.net
>Scott B.
Scott:
Somebody finally hit the nail on the head!!!. All the other problems everyone
else is secondary to the crash of the game. Get me a game that does not crash
and then will talk about all the other problems.
Saul
Scott D. Orr
<sbl...@globalvision.net> writes:
>
>Thanks for letting the rest of us who play the game know what we would
>REALLY like! _I_ would like a game that doesn't crash. Mainly, that's
>about it. Faster would be nice, but I can live with some degradation
>in speed if the results are seemingly accurate. What you _seem_ to
want
>is a game you can turn on, choose a side, and sit back and watch. In
>that case television would be a less expensive hobby. (:
>
How does this apply when the results _aren't_ accurate, Scott?
:)
Scott O.,
still waiting for them to ship his copy
Tim Slater
>
>In article <3v5pa1$l...@globalnews.globalvision.net> Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net> writes:
>>Path: nnrp2.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!globalnews.globalvision.net!news
>>From: Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net>
>>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>>Subject: Re: Harpoon Classic or Harpoo
>>Date: 26 Jul 1995 16:08:33 GMT
>>Organization: Global Vision Incorporated
>>Lines: 23
>>Message-ID: <3v5pa1$l...@globalnews.globalvision.net>
>>References: <COSYIB...@Empire-East.com> <hlJiheo....@delphi.com>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: c70.globalvision.net
>
>
>>taxh...@delphi.com wrote:
>>>
>>> As with many of their games, 360 made a crucial error in focus when
>>> they designed Harpoon II.
>>>
>>> What Harpooners would really like is a system in which we could say
>>> "I want the HARMs from my F-4s, the Harpoons from my F-18s and the
>>> Walleyes from my A-6Es to arrive at the target at the same time, and
>>> have the computer tell us when to launch each type of plane so that
>>> they arrive at the apprpriate distance from the target at the right time to
>>> launch their missiles. You still need to make crucial decisions like how many fighters to fly CAP over your carrier, how many
>>> to fly escort for the bombers, how many planes to have in the air at
>>> any time so you always have some ready in reserve for unexpected
>>> attacks or targets of opportunity.
>>>
>>REALLY like! _I_ would like a game that doesn't crash. Mainly, that's
>>about it. Faster would be nice, but I can live with some degradation
>>in speed if the results are seemingly accurate. What you _seem_ to want
>>is a game you can turn on, choose a side, and sit back and watch. In
>>that case television would be a less expensive hobby. (:
>
>
>Scott:
>
>Somebody finally hit the nail on the head!!!. All the other problems everyone
>else is secondary to the crash of the game. Get me a game that does not crash
>and then will talk about all the other problems.
>
>Saul
>
>
>
Harpoon Classic, it needs to be playable. IMHO Harpoon II is not.
360 seems to have lost the ability to produce a playable game, Patriot
was a bust, Harpoon II v1 died on the shelves. Point is 360 needs to
produce a winner before I will spend any more of my money on one of thier
games.. Tim
Nigel Tzeng
Saul H. Jacobs <sja...@primenet.com> wrote:
>In article <3v5pa1$l...@globalnews.globalvision.net> Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net> writes:
[nice posting deleted]
>>Thanks for letting the rest of us who play the game know what we would
>>REALLY like! _I_ would like a game that doesn't crash. Mainly, that's
>>about it. Faster would be nice, but I can live with some degradation
>>in speed if the results are seemingly accurate. What you _seem_ to want
>>is a game you can turn on, choose a side, and sit back and watch. In
>>that case television would be a less expensive hobby. (:
Actually I agree with the previous poster (who's attribution I clumsily
deleted). From a designer perspective 360 dropped the ball...after all
PzG isn't a vaguely realistic combat modle but seems to get the "correct"
strategic and tactical results using the abstract model it has.
>>Scott B.
>
>Scott:
>
>Somebody finally hit the nail on the head!!!. All the other problems everyone
>else is secondary to the crash of the game. Get me a game that does not crash
>and then will talk about all the other problems.
No, no, no...you missed the point...the crashing is a FEATURE...the
360 programmers cleverly measured the MTBF for the NTDS (or whatever)
computers the Navy uses and factored that in for "realism". :) You did
have "breakdowns" turned on right?
>Saul
Nigel
Scott Blaha
> >> _I_ would like a game that doesn't crash. Mainly, that's
> >>about it. Faster would be nice, but I can live with some degradation
> >>in speed if the results are seemingly accurate. What you _seem_ to want
> >>is a game you can turn on, choose a side, and sit back and watch. In
> >>that case television would be a less expensive hobby. (:
> >
> >
> Crashing is a major pain. But for the game to have a run of success like
> Harpoon Classic, it needs to be playable. IMHO Harpoon II is not.
> 360 seems to have lost the ability to produce a playable game, Patriot
> was a bust, Harpoon II v1 died on the shelves. Point is 360 needs to
> produce a winner before I will spend any more of my money on one of thier
> games.. Tim
Well, what's your definition of playable? I mean, I play often, which to me
must make it 'playable'.(at least to me!) The game speed is frustrating at
times, but does not make it unplayable. It just requires more patience from the
player!
Scott B.
Gary Hammer
Well, on my system, patience has nothing to do with it. I load several of
the scenarios that are included and at various points in each, the game drops
out and I get what must be error messages written in graphic characters on
the screen. Then I normally get a reboot.
I have run this under OS/2 and then repartitioned my drives to get a DOS 6.21
partition to boot to. I have resorted to booting "clean" and still get the
crashes in the same scenarios. Others run fine. Some that I created crash,
others are fine.
I don't think it's a system limitation. I have a P90 32Mb RAM 3Gb drives,
Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM 4Mb. Seems like that should be sufficient...
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Gary Hammer, ga...@hammer.org
* * * * * * * * * * *
ISDN, Warp OS/2, and PPP Assistance
Betas Spoken Here!
OS/2 "Must Have" Utilities List and Links
http://www.teamos2.org/software/must_have/
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Scott Blaha
>
> Well, on my system, patience has nothing to do with it. I load several of
> the scenarios that are included and at various points in each, the game drops
> out and I get what must be error messages written in graphic characters on
> the screen. Then I normally get a reboot.
>
> I have run this under OS/2 and then repartitioned my drives to get a DOS 6.21
> partition to boot to. I have resorted to booting "clean" and still get the
> crashes in the same scenarios. Others run fine. Some that I created crash,
> others are fine.
>
> I don't think it's a system limitation. I have a P90 32Mb RAM 3Gb drives,
> Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM 4Mb. Seems like that should be sufficient...
>
>
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> Gary Hammer, ga...@hammer.org
> * * * * * * * * * * *
>
they advise you on using HIMEM.SYS and adjusting your config.sys files=
statement, etc. I have done this and have had only one crash. Actually,
only 2 scenerios have caused me extensive problems with crashing in the
past: Okinawa and Fight to the Death. I thought it might have been because
the scenerios are so loaded with aircraft & missles, but I have played other
equally large scenerios, especially in GC2, and have had but one crash.
Scott B.
Saul H. Jacobs
>Path: nnrp2.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!globalnews.globalvision.net!news
>From: Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net>
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>Date: 2 Aug 1995 15:59:08 GMT
>Organization: Global Vision Incorporated
>Lines: 29
>Message-ID: <3vo7cc$1...@globalnews.globalvision.net>
>References: <COSYIB...@Empire-East.com> <hlJiheo....@delphi.com> <3v5pa1$l...@globalnews.globalvision.net> <sjacobs.3...@primenet.com> <3vj5ti$8...@stargate.promus.com> <3vn1oj$6...@keystone.intergate.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: c70.globalvision.net
>Scott B.
Scott:
Try Return to Yankee Station, the two you mention above crash on me every time
to. I am in the process of trying to play Yankee Station and it crashed every
hour on the hour.
Saul
Scott Blaha
>
>
> Try Return to Yankee Station, the two you mention above crash on me every time
> to. I am in the process of trying to play Yankee Station and it crashed every
> hour on the hour.
>
> Saul
>
I've played it. Don't remember any crashes, but I do remember it
was slow as MOLASSES! And that nothern-most enemy airbase sort of
snuck up on me-launched all my tomahawks at the OTHER 2 land units!
Scott B.
Saul H. Jacobs
>Path: nnrp2.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!globalnews.globalvision.net!news
>From: Scott Blaha <sbl...@globalvision.net>
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
>Subject: Re: Harpoon Classic or Harpoon II
>Organization: Global Vision Incorporated
>Lines: 15
>Message-ID: <3vqqje$r...@globalnews.globalvision.net>
>Message-ID: <3vqqje$r...@globalnews.globalvision.net>
> <sjacobs.3...@primenet.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: c70.globalvision.net
>Scott B.
Thats really weird, it ran at a reasonable rate for me (I have a 486dx4 100)
but it crashed all over the place. I found all 4 bases first and them divided
my missles up amongst all 4. Did good on the Hifong and the middle Russian
base, the other two took awhile to get.
Saul
Scott Blaha
> >sja...@primenet.com (Saul H. Jacobs) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Try Return to Yankee Station, the two you mention above crash on me every time
> >> to. I am in the process of trying to play Yankee Station and it crashed every
> >> hour on the hour.
>
> >was slow as MOLASSES! And that nothern-most enemy airbase sort of
> >snuck up on me-launched all my tomahawks at the OTHER 2 land units!
>
> >Scott B.
>
> Thats really weird, it ran at a reasonable rate for me (I have a 486dx4 100)
> but it crashed all over the place. I found all 4 bases first and them divided
> my missles up amongst all 4. Did good on the Hifong and the middle Russian
> base, the other two took awhile to get.
>
> Saul
>
>
isn't it. I'm running a dx2-66, and have the usual slowness when
a lot of contacts are in the air, but some scenerios just seem to be
slow--period.
Scott B.