Warcraft II: Who's better? Part 1:Ogre-Mages/Paladins
Dave Choe
new player, and I've yet to read this thread, I decided to
start it, or at least start it again.
The similarities of the Orcs and Humans will be ignored;
you know, Grunts vs Footmen, Dragons vs
Gryphons(Griffins?), Sappers vs Demo Squads.
What does need to be discussed, however, are the
differences between Orcs and Humans. First off, Rangers vs
Berserkers.
Regeneration vs Marksmanship
In a mass attack, regeneration is near useless against a
Paladin hacking away at it. With hit-and-run tactics,
regenerating Berserkers can be fun, but usually they're run
down by knights and slaughtered. Yuck.
Marksmanship = more damage. More damage is good in a game
of offense. 'Nuff said.
Now come the major differences starting with Ogre-Mages and
Paladins. Their spells are the problems.
Eye of Kroog vs Holy Vision
I may have to give this one to the Paladins. The eye is
incredibly fast, but it still needs time to get to a
certain place, whilst Holy Vision is instantaneous(doesn't
last too long, though)
Bloodlust vs Healing
Bloodlust is definately the winner here. When the
objective is to destroy your enemies, sometimes the best
defense is a good offense, which Bloodlust does in spades:
it increases the speed and the attack power. Nine
Bloodlusted Ogres can kick nine Paladins anytime. It is
difficult to try to heal your men in the heat of battle;
against Bloodlusted Ogres they usually die before they cast
the spell. One paladin with full mana can't fully restore
one severly damaged (red)unit, it takes several. One fully
loaded Ogre-Mage can cast Bloodlust five times. Five
Bloodlusted Ogre-Mages can do a hell of a lot of damage.
Runes vs Exorcism
These deal with different things.
The defensive side of Ogres, you can cast a whole bunch of
Runes if you can see a wave of attackers coming, severely
hurting them. Doesn't last too long, from what I
understand. Works against all land units.
Exorcism is a very good spell, with good range and an okay
cost, but it's only good if your opponent plays Orcs and
plays with Death Knights. Besides, if the Death Knight
doesn't have any more Death Coils left, a couple of good
whacks can take him out too, and that doesn't cost a thing.
Continued in Part 2
--
Exercise tip #14:
"First you lift your left leg.
Then you lift your right leg.
Then you jog to the nearest hospital."
dave...@utoronto.ca
Commander Spock
wrote:
>This is probably a dead topic, but seeing how I'm a fairly
>new player, and I've yet to read this thread, I decided to
>start it, or at least start it again.
>
>The similarities of the Orcs and Humans will be ignored;
>you know, Grunts vs Footmen, Dragons vs
>Gryphons(Griffins?), Sappers vs Demo Squads.
>
<znip znip>
>
> Bloodlust vs Healing
>
>Bloodlust is definately the winner here. When the
>objective is to destroy your enemies, sometimes the best
>defense is a good offense, which Bloodlust does in spades:
>it increases the speed and the attack power. Nine
>Bloodlusted Ogres can kick nine Paladins anytime. It is
>difficult to try to heal your men in the heat of battle;
>against Bloodlusted Ogres they usually die before they cast
>the spell. One paladin with full mana can't fully restore
>one severly damaged (red)unit, it takes several. One fully
>loaded Ogre-Mage can cast Bloodlust five times. Five
>Bloodlusted Ogre-Mages can do a hell of a lot of damage.
I agree with this, but being able to heal mages, gryphons (a very
expensive investment), etc makes heal a lot more valuable than you
state. Also, by using the keyboard, it is easy to quickly heal
paladins during combat.
>
> Runes vs Exorcism
>
>These deal with different things.
>The defensive side of Ogres, you can cast a whole bunch of
>Runes if you can see a wave of attackers coming, severely
>hurting them. Doesn't last too long, from what I
>understand. Works against all land units.
Runes are extremely powerful. You can cast runes on top a group of
units, so that if they follow, they go ka-boom. You can protect
death-knights by casting runes while retreating from a hit-and-run.
Speaking of hit and run, there's nothing more annoying then ogre-mages
making rune runs.
>
>Exorcism is a very good spell, with good range and an okay
>cost, but it's only good if your opponent plays Orcs and
>plays with Death Knights. Besides, if the Death Knight
>doesn't have any more Death Coils left, a couple of good
>whacks can take him out too, and that doesn't cost a thing.
>
Exorcism is VERY powerful. It is extremely useful when used in
conjunction with invisibility. Simply make a troop of paladins, make
them invisible, and scour the map for deathknights. Bye-bye
deathknights :).
Jeff L. Montondon
> This is probably a dead topic, but seeing how I'm a fairly
> new player, and I've yet to read this thread, I decided to
> start it, or at least start it again.
>
> The similarities of the Orcs and Humans will be ignored;
> you know, Grunts vs Footmen, Dragons vs
> Gryphons(Griffins?), Sappers vs Demo Squads.
>
> differences between Orcs and Humans. First off, Rangers vs
> Berserkers.
>
> Regeneration vs Marksmanship
>
> In a mass attack, regeneration is near useless against a
> Paladin hacking away at it. With hit-and-run tactics,
> regenerating Berserkers can be fun, but usually they're run
> down by knights and slaughtered. Yuck.
True, but as a defense against Gryphons, a regenerating Berzerker is cheaper
than a Ranger with a Paladin nearby to heal him. Actually, in almost any
defensive situation, if the Berzerker survives, then so would an archer, and
the next time the Berzerker will be fine, but you need a Paladin to fix your
Ranger. Actually, I think that the piddly +1 to damage isn't really worth it.
One small question... When you go for the upgrade, it says damage +3, but
afterwards, when you already have the arrows upgraded to a +2, the total bonus
only says +3. Which is right?
>
> Marksmanship = more damage. More damage is good in a game
> of offense. 'Nuff said.
>
Nah, if your Ranger is dead, he does alot less damage than a live Berzerker.
>
> Now come the major differences starting with Ogre-Mages and
> Paladins. Their spells are the problems.
>
> Eye of Kroog vs Holy Vision
>
> I may have to give this one to the Paladins. The eye is
> incredibly fast, but it still needs time to get to a
> certain place, whilst Holy Vision is instantaneous(doesn't
> last too long, though)
>
Holy Vision is great for uncovering the terrain, but worthless for seeking out
enemies since you only have a split second to spot them. Eye of Kroog can be
used as an expendable substitute for an aircraft to spot subs and enemies.
Spotting subs with the Eye can be great in an emergency. I'd say they break
even, personally, since each has their uses.
> Bloodlust vs Healing
>
> Bloodlust is definately the winner here. When the
> objective is to destroy your enemies, sometimes the best
> defense is a good offense, which Bloodlust does in spades:
> it increases the speed and the attack power. Nine
> Bloodlusted Ogres can kick nine Paladins anytime. It is
> difficult to try to heal your men in the heat of battle;
> against Bloodlusted Ogres they usually die before they cast
> the spell. One paladin with full mana can't fully restore
> one severly damaged (red)unit, it takes several. One fully
> loaded Ogre-Mage can cast Bloodlust five times. Five
> Bloodlusted Ogre-Mages can do a hell of a lot of damage.
>
Hrm, I agree that for offense the Bloodlust is much better, but for defense,
the Healing spell will tend to save you lots of money. Especially for healing
your Gryphons and such. I tend to use Healing more than Bloodlust, personally.
> Runes vs Exorcism
>
> These deal with different things.
> The defensive side of Ogres, you can cast a whole bunch of
> Runes if you can see a wave of attackers coming, severely
> hurting them. Doesn't last too long, from what I
> understand. Works against all land units.
>
> Exorcism is a very good spell, with good range and an okay
> cost, but it's only good if your opponent plays Orcs and
> plays with Death Knights. Besides, if the Death Knight
> doesn't have any more Death Coils left, a couple of good
> whacks can take him out too, and that doesn't cost a thing.
>
When playing against the computer, its Exorcism tends to make my Death Knights
totally useless until all the paladins are dead. *growl* That takes a pretty
big chunk out of the offensive power of the Orcs. No death coil... ouch. On
the other hand, when I'm playing the Humans, Exorcism is only moderately
useful since a Death Knight has better offensive range, and like Dave says,
'couple of good whacks'...
Mark Kundinger
>True, but as a defense against Gryphons, a regenerating Berzerker is cheaper
>than a Ranger with a Paladin nearby to heal him. Actually, in almost any
>defensive situation, if the Berzerker survives, then so would an archer, and
>the next time the Berzerker will be fine, but you need a Paladin to fix your
>Ranger. Actually, I think that the piddly +1 to damage isn't really worth it.
>One small question... When you go for the upgrade, it says damage +3, but
>afterwards, when you already have the arrows upgraded to a +2, the total bonus
>only says +3. Which is right?
Hmm... when *I* upgrade the arrows twice and then get marksmanship,
*my* bonus is +5 (and it's really fun!)
Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------
Windows 95: from the same people who brought you EDLIN!
m...@owlnet.rice.edu http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mtk
Avijit Bandyopadhyay
: On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:56:18 GMT, Dave Choe <dave...@utoronto.ca>
: wrote:
: >This is probably a dead topic, but seeing how I'm a fairly
: >new player, and I've yet to read this thread, I decided to
: >start it, or at least start it again.
: >
: >The similarities of the Orcs and Humans will be ignored;
: >you know, Grunts vs Footmen, Dragons vs
: >Gryphons(Griffins?), Sappers vs Demo Squads.
: >
: <znip znip>
: Exorcism is VERY powerful. It is extremely useful when used in
: conjunction with invisibility. Simply make a troop of paladins, make
: them invisible, and scour the map for deathknights. Bye-bye
: deathknights :).
Death knights can see your invisible units. If you know where one is,
then you can get in range and cast exorcism... but if you actually
LOOKING for deathknights... you could get toasted.
--
< Avijit Bandyopadhyay - ad...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca >
Old Man
: Death knights can see your invisible units. If you know where one is,
: then you can get in range and cast exorcism... but if you actually
: LOOKING for deathknights... you could get toasted.
Are you sure about the death knights being able to see invisible units? I
tried playing a custom scenario yesterday against the computer just to
experiment with what I read on this newsgroup and see if the stuff
actually works. In this scenario, I edited it and put a passive ally peon
right next to where I start off. Right when the game starts, I get a
peon (while I am playing human), so I get both orcish AND human units to
play around with at the same time. Anyway, I go around casting
invisibility on enemy units or critters with my mage. They disappear so I
can't see them. Then I bring my death knight in, and they don't appear.
To see if they moved away while invisible, I casted blizzard on the area
where I casted invisibility and sure enough a shitload of dead critters
and dead enemy peons pop out of the air. I haven't played many humans in
multiplayer games, and have had no opportunities to experiment there.
Does anyone really know for SURE? Also, when you ally with someone, does
that enable them to see your invisible units? Someone please enlighten.
Thank you.
--
-=< Lee Kuo >=- [old...@cyberverse.com] [http://www.cyberverse.com/~oldman]
Sam Carter
Dave Choe <dave...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Eye of Kroog vs Holy Vision
>
>I may have to give this one to the Paladins. The eye is
>incredibly fast, but it still needs time to get to a
>certain place, whilst Holy Vision is instantaneous(doesn't
>last too long, though)
The eye is pretty useful as a sub killer, if you don't have any zeppellins
around. I never have any near home (as they are out exploring), so when that
shipyard/oil platform is attacked, fly an eye near and let the catapults fire.
> Runes vs Exorcism
Not only good against land units, they can be devastating against ships,
especially try them on that incoming transport.
Christopher J Milner
>> Runes vs Exorcism
>Not only good against land units, they can be devastating against ships,
>especially try them on that incoming transport.
You can cast runes on water but it will not affect the ships that pass. Runes
will affect land based units only.
CJM