Harpoon2- a flop vs Harpoon
Wilhelm Klink
complicated, less intuitive. Sequels are NOT always as good as original.
5th Fleet and Grandest Fleet are more fun than Harpoon2. Save your money for
something besides Harpoon2. This Harpoon fan hates it.
Robin D. Roberts
Well I don't want to argue your opinion of H2 ... but I would argue
against 5th Fleet. If you had ever played the paper version, which
I'd liked - I have every one of the board games in that series, you'd
realize that the game play is completely out of balance in the
computer version with hidden movement. Fortunately that flaw and the
fact that the game _always_ begins with a computer air turn seem to be
cheap attempts at balancing the game in compensation for its pathetic
"AI".
Plus, talk about slow and for no good reason except lousy programming
[that is an expert opinion since I seem more qualified than the
experts Johnnie Cochran uses ...] and 5th Fleet heads the list.
5th Fleet sucks.
Robin Roberts
Julian Barker
I must admit that as a player of all the fleet games I hated 5th Fleet. BTW
Harpoon II was flogged to the secondhand shop yesterday after a year of
ownership. Harpoon Classic still gets played.
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Julian Barker +
+ jul...@rodent.demon.co.uk +
+ Keep your lies consistent - Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #60 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ThreeSixty
the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not like
the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call fun.
Rick
Robin D. Roberts
While that is a very spoken response, I respectfully suggest that it
doesn't really address the actual comments made here. By far the
majority believe that H2 is too slow esp. in comparison to Harpoon 1.
I haven't seen a comment here than sounded in arcade vs. strategy
issues ... after all this newsgroup is comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.STRATEGIC
and that is what we're looking for.
I myself believe that it is slower than it ought to be and base my
not-so-humble opinion on my own 10 years of software development
experience.
Unlike some others, I do like the new user interface and am far
happier now that the aircraft related bugs are addressed. The
integration of the database and contact reports is an important and
welcome feature.
Robin Roberts
Gary Levine
>
>Harpoon2 just sucks. It is not as much fun as Harpoon. It is slow,
more
>complicated, less intuitive. Sequels are NOT always as good as original.
>5th Fleet and Grandest Fleet are more fun than Harpoon2. Save your
money for
>something besides Harpoon2. This Harpoon fan hates it.
Ditto!!! This Harpoon fan returned Harpoon 2 turkey back to the store!
Scott Blaha
>
> By far the
> majority believe that H2 is too slow esp. in comparison to Harpoon 1.
> I haven't seen a comment here than sounded in arcade vs. strategy
> issues ... after all this newsgroup is comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.STRATEGIC
> and that is what we're looking for.
>
> I myself believe that it is slower than it ought to be
> happier now that the aircraft related bugs are addressed. The
> integration of the database and contact reports is an important and
> welcome feature.
>
> Robin Roberts
>
without adding the extra video. Some of the scenerios run so slow that
they are time prohibitive to play. And it does not always reflect
map size or number of participating units. Just what causes this
slowness?! I like the game overall; but even at this stage there is
room for a lot of improvement in the dynamics.
Scott B.
Saul Mayo
S(>While that is a very spoken response, I respectfully suggest that it
S(>doesn't really address the actual comments made here. By far the
S(>majority believe that H2 is too slow esp. in comparison to Harpoon 1.
S(>I haven't seen a comment here than sounded in arcade vs. strategy
S(>issues ... after all this newsgroup is comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.STRATEGIC
S(>and that is what we're looking for.
I bought it, and would like to also ask "where are all
those millions of operations per second going??????"
Certainly not to the graphics! On a mission with lots
of ships etc etc one can definately fall asleep.
1 sec = 1 min time acceleration really only works
if you knock yourself out with a hammer ever minute....
Cheers.
___
* UniQWK v4.2 * The Windows Mail Reader
Scott D. Orr
writes:
>Harpoon2 is more complicated and has a better chance of beating you
than
>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not
like
>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call
fun.
>
Rick,
As some of us have said before, the reason we dislike H2 is
_because_ we enjoy strategy and planning -- the strategy in H2 isn't
real and the planning is practically useless, because you can't get
your units to follow orders much of the time. Please don't assume
that people dislike your game simply because they aren't
"sophisticated" enough.
Scott Orr
john perry
>
>Harpoon2 is more complicated and has a better chance of beating you than
>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not
like
>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call
fun.
>
>Rick
Rick
Please please tell us why Harpoon2 is sooooooooooo slow
Gary Hammer
>than
>>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not
>like
>>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call
>fun.
>>
>>Rick
>
>
> As some of us have said before, the reason we dislike H2 is
>_because_ we enjoy strategy and planning -- the strategy in H2 isn't
>real and the planning is practically useless, because you can't get
>your units to follow orders much of the time. Please don't assume
>that people dislike your game simply because they aren't
>"sophisticated" enough.
>
I have to agree. I have a P90 32Mb, Diamond Stealth64 VRAM 4Mb and find this
game crawls. Also, many, many of the included battlesets crash at various
points. Plus, I've saved games and when I try to reload them I get the
progress boxes, then get dropped to a DOS prompt with an "Not Enough Memory"
error. If 32Mb isn't enough, sorry.
I've followed their suggestions in the README that comes on the CD, but
nothing makes any of these problems go away. This happens under DOS 6.22 and
OS/2 Warp.
I like strategy, enjoy planning a campaign, testing new tactics. If only the
game would run long enough to do any of that...
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Gary Hammer, ga...@hammer.org
* * * * * * * * * * *
ISDN, Warp OS/2, and PPP Assistance
Betas Spoken Here!
OS/2 "Must Have" Utilities List and Links
http://www.teamos2.org/software/must_have/
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
ThreeSixty
computer checks regularly for every unit in the game. On my 486/33 I get 5
to 1 time compression at the most, sometimes 1 to 2 on large scenerios.
Rick
Jay...@en.com
>Harpoon2 is more complicated and has a better chance of beating you than
>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not like
>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call fun.
>
>Rick
Well, for me, strategy and planning can be fun. The problem is,
Harpoon 2 strategy and planning wasnt any fun for me. Too slow, too
many odd/weird/third world scenarios and much preferred the original
Harpoon interface to those windows in H2.
Marv Conn
>Harpoon2 has a very accurate sensor and communications model which the
Sure, it does, but its still very slow. I can remember that Harpoon I
was very slow too, but now years later, we all have 486+ computers, it
doesn't seem so slow any more, but I'll tell you what, it crawled on my
286.
I think some corners should have been cut to make it go faster, or at
least have settings that can be changed to skip some features.
I have found one way to speed up the games. I use the scenario editor to
cut out the parts of the scenario that don't have much function. For
example, if there is only one sub in the scenario, I just remove it and
eliminate all of the sub search patrols and sub related attack craft.
By cutting down the size of the scenario, I make it much faster. The
more sensors that are eliminated, but better it goes.
I like the scenario editor, it works just as good as the one in Harpoon
I. It also really helps players understand what is going on in the
games.
I've almost mastered controlling my units, as strange as that may sound.
One of the problems that I'm sure other players are having is that the
game doesn't give feed back about why orders are not being carried out.
If I were an admrial and I ordered the fleet to sail at 35 knots and
found 30 minutes later that the fleet was still at 12 knots, I'd hang
someone from the yard arm. This is typical in Harpoon 2. I can see why
the fleet hasn't carried out my orders, but I'd like for someone to tell
me that it can't be done at this time.
All in all, I like Harpoon 2 more than Harpoon I because I seem to have
more control over the units in many way. Its only the air groups that
are a little flaky.
Robin D. Roberts
wrote:
>Harpoon2 has a very accurate sensor and communications model which the
>computer checks regularly for every unit in the game. On my 486/33 I get 5
>to 1 time compression at the most, sometimes 1 to 2 on large scenerios.
>Rick
If you've engineered a simulation beyond the hardware capabilities,
then it doesn't make sense to sneer at the users who correctly observe
that the simulation is too slow to be of any use. If you've created a
highly accurate but unuseable product, then when you boil down the
situation you aren't left with an accurate product ... just an
unuseable one.
But given the actual capabilities of the faster 486 platform, I
continue to believe that 70% of the problem is in the software
engineering end and 30% is in what I can only speculate is modeling
effects out of scale.
By modeling effects out of scale I mean huge processing time budgets
dedicated to processes that contribute only a small effect in reality
which is dwarfed by other, larger effects.
Robin Roberts
sci...@ix.netcom.com Thousand Oaks, Ventura County, CA -- DVC
"The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will
be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
-Grant Gilmore, Yale Professor of Law
==PGP 2.6 key on request - and if Freeh doesn't like it, he can kiss mine==
john perry
>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not like
>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call fun.
>
>Rick
Hi Rick,
You either are missing the point or intentionally avoiding the question. We
are all Harpoon 1 Players. All of us want to play a strategy and planning
game - not an arcade game. So let's get that straight from the start.
Harpoon 1 was "game of the year" and one of the most popular games ever
published. We all loved it and enjoyed it very much. Unfortunately,
Harpoon 2 is for most people, even ones with 486's and up, an unplayable
game. The game is so slow that on my computer, a lowly 386, it can take up
to 5 minutes of real time for 1 minute of game time. Flight operations are
practically impossible to plan. The Mission Editor is poorly thought out and
hard to use.
Bottom line is this...I bought every 360 Harpoon 1 product sold by you. Not
so with Harpoon 2. I bought the original game and that is all. I will not
be spending any more of my money until you fix Harpoon 2. By fix I mean
make the game run at a reasonable speed with no excuses. Also, the Mission
Editor must be improved and the same for Flight Operations. So let me say,
it's easy. If you want my money, fix the game.
JP
oleg
the verge of becoming an ex-long-time customer. Up until
last month I used to own an Amiga (25MHz '030, 18 megs of RAM
1gig storage and some other toys). NOT A SINGLE 360
product run completely right. Basically they disregarded
programming guidelines, so that their games were unplayable
when the OS was revised. The tech support attitude was
basically 'tough'... OK, so I had an unsupported machine and
shouldn't have expected bugfixes even though I spent
roughly $500 on their programs. Then HarpoonII came out
for the macintosh... since I have a macIIci and an accelerated
LCII sitting here and my Amiga had a very very good Mac
emulator, I bought it. Despite having an 020 as a minimum
requirement HII was ABSOLUTELY unplayable on a 25MHz
030 MacIIci or Amiga, or 50MHz LCII. So after I got a p100 system
I called Intracorp and arranged to have the mac version replaced
with the Deluxe Multimedia CD (oooh, deluxe, oooooh, multimedia;
I am swooning from excitement). I sent it off via next day mail on
the 27th. Last wednesday I called to find out what happened to it,
since about two weeks had passed. "We'll get back to you". Thursday
I called back: "Hmm it is not in my database, let me hunt down
Ray [the person who was supposed to handle the exchange] and
I'll get back to you." Needless to say I am still waiting. At this
point I am pretty sure hell will be hosting skiing parties before
I give 360/Intracorp/Whatevertheirnameisnow another penny.
List of 360 products owned: HarpoonI, All HarpoonI battlesets,
Scenario Editor, Megafortress, 2 Megafortress campaign disks,
Harpoon II.
List of 360 products that are bug free:
List of 360 products that I will buy in the future:
Oleg
Scott D. Orr
writes:
>Harpoon2 has a very accurate sensor and communications model which the
>computer checks regularly for every unit in the game. On my 486/33 I
get 5
>to 1 time compression at the most, sometimes 1 to 2 on large
scenerios.
>
>Rick
It's really a pity some of that effort couldn't be spent on an AI that
uses something resembling realistic tactics, isn't it?
Scott Orr
p...@ozemail.com
> three...@aol.com (ThreeSixty) wrote:
> >Harpoon2 is more complicated and has a better chance of beating you than
> >the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not like
> >the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
> >realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call fun.
> >
> >Rick
As a comment from a customer who bought H2 hoping that it would be a real
evolution on H1 I'd like to offer the following points :-
1. It runs s-l-o-w. If so many people are reporting it on a wide variety of
systems it's worth following up. Telling us what performance you get on a
486/66, which you do in another message doesn't help. Have you though of
posting your config so that we can see if we can replicate your claims.
2. As a long time wargamer, board, miniatures (incl. Harpoon) and computer I
enjoy strategy and planning. It is challenging and it is fun. H2 does not go
out of its way to enhance the fun. Maybe if you're planning H2.5 you should ask
the people like me who have consigned the game to the dim dark dusty corners
what you could do to make the game more fun for us the paying public. Don't ask
the people who love the game for advice ask the ones who don't like it.
3. Your post quoted above will not endear you or your company to the paying
public like me that helps to keep people like you in business. The post quoted
above was the first message I saw on this thread and immediately gives me an
image as to three-sixty's definition of customer service. As I own my own
business I know what customer service means and what you've got up there
doesn't seem like it to me.
4. Stop defending your position if so many people are reporting the same sorts
of problems you look like you're stubborn and not open to feedback.
5. If H2 can be sped up and not hang so often I may be willing to buy it. I
love the concept of the game which is why I went back to H1.
That's my two cents worth.
PaulC.
Nigel Tzeng
ThreeSixty <three...@aol.com> wrote:
>Harpoon2 is more complicated and has a better chance of beating you than
>the original. But, everyone is intitled to an opinion. If you did not like
Generally by boring you into submission waiting for the game to run...
or allowing you to miss something important while you nursemaid things
you shouldn't have to...or simply crashing.
>the challege H2 presented, I am sorry, it is not an arcade game and we
>realize that strategy and planning are not what a lot of people call fun.
Given that we are posting in c.s.i.p.g.s I'd say that a good number of
the people here bitching about your product played the original
Harpoon using no more than pencil and paper...I'd say we're all
interested in "strategy and planning".
It boggles the mind how 360 took a game that was marginally playable
(and marginally realistic) by hand and devolved into something that
can bring a P90 to its knees. Yes...it does "sensor modeling" and now
does "multimedia" (which IMHO isn't an overriding concern for people
interested in strategy and tactics games anyway) but that's hardly an
"improvement" or even "more realistic".
Casually dismiss us if you like...most of us have already started
voting with our pocketbooks. Your arrogance is much like those of US
auto manufacturers who churned out one poor product after another
until people started equating US cars with junk and bought Japanese.
They had the financial depth to survive until they lost that stigma
(and built better cars)...I'm not certain 360 has learned from it's
past mistakes.
>Rick
Nigel
ThreeSixty
time. If someone has a crash, e-mail me, include in your e-mail
a)config.sys, b)autoexec.bat, c)err.txt, d) sound card and video card
manufactorer, d)general make of computer including ram and free harddrive
space.
Rick
Andrew Shore
I miss seeing the top-down views of missiles hitting/just missing ships.
--
AS
Bill Burtch
HELLO, HELLO, 360 still doesn't get it. The design of the game causes
it to be unplayable, regardless of your interest in "Strategic vs Arcade"
games. Until you guys get the message and fix the game, you will
continue to sink good money into a bottomless pit. One more time
IT'S TOO SLOW.
I purchased H1, MEDC, IOPG, PARTRIOT (yes i am a sucker) and HII,
NEVER, EVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS WILL I PURCHASE ANOTHER 360 GAME.
Tim
john perry
>Tim
Tim
You got that right. I will not buy any thing until they fix the game
daniel...@empire-east.com
JP>>HELLO, HELLO, 360 still doesn't get it. The design of the game causes
>>it to be unplayable, regardless of your interest in "Strategic vs Arcade"
>>NEVER, EVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS WILL I PURCHASE ANOTHER 360 GAME.
>You got that right. I will not buy any thing until they fix the game
You might reconsider Harpoon I, the ALLIANCE version,
classic harpoon, which has been upgraded and alot of bugs 360 left
are fixed, classic harpoon is not 360s product anylonger.
Harpoon 2 is a ripoff, and i have given up on 360.
* SLMR 2.1a * "Don't underestimate the power of the force" - Darth Vade