Panzer general - Upgrade strategy
G.T. Thorley
cost. It appears to cost you 4/5 of the price of a new unit to
upgrade. So instead of upgrading wouldn,t it make sense to just
purchase another unit keeping the one you have as well?
Mike Klarman
That would make sense if there were no limit to your number of units,
but there is (increases with each scenario). It also makes sense so the
better-equipped unit gets all the experience of the old unit, which may
not survive for long in, for example, Panzer II's on the Eastern Front
(just try sending them, or almost anything before a Tiger, one on one
against the KV-1's in Stalingrad).
--
**********************************************************************
* Mike Klarman * "If we don't believe in freedom of *
* michael...@ummed.edu * expression for those we despise, *
* kla...@world.std.com * we don't believe in it at all." *
* http://world.std.com/~klarman * Noam Chomsky *
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Mark Manville
Mike Klarman <kla...@world.std.com> wrote:
>G.T. Thorley wrote:
>> Is there any way to upgrade units to more current units at minimal
>> cost. It appears to cost you 4/5 of the price of a new unit to
>> upgrade. So instead of upgrading wouldn,t it make sense to just
>> purchase another unit keeping the one you have as well?
>
>That would make sense if there were no limit to your number of units,
>but there is (increases with each scenario). It also makes sense so the
>better-equipped unit gets all the experience of the old unit, which may
yes, exactly. however, i do think upgrade issues are an important question
warranting discussion. Just what do you buy, and when? I'm a fairly new
player but I believe I've already evolved some good stategies on this. For
example, I bought only Ia panzers (cost 12) in Poland & Warsaw, they got
severely mauled but, taking advantage of elite replacements betwen scenarios
they'd built up maybe a star of experience apiece. The prestige I did not
spend by buying better tanks I hoarded to 1) buy 2 fighters & a stuka at the
start of Warsaw (filling out my core), 2) upgrading my two most experienced
infantry to bridge engineers at the start of Poland (w/ halftracks of course)
and then, finally 3) upgrading every tank unit I had to PzIVd at the start of
Norway (the first time they were available) *AND* then buying three more
fighters, 1 or 2 stukas, and a level bomber during the scenario, almost all
in the first turn. Not only did that allow me to handily take NOrway (I even
wiped out the entire allied navy, without losing my battleship or a couple of
the cruisers), but it set me up to just obliterate everything in my path in
the low countries and in france - I got majors in both battles, with time to
spare -- which, by the way, I always use to take secondary objectives in order
to build up more experience & prestige. Now I'm poised to invade Britain in
'40, with about 9 panzerIVd, 3-4 bridge eng/pioneer, a couple more Wehr inf,
2 artillery (tht may have been a mistake), 1 Ju88a, 6 b109 fighters, and 3-4
stukas, plus over 3000 prestige to start (or maybe less -- still ahven't
decided on "buying" the italian navy). And mind you, this is in my first
game (first time I played past norway that is), at slighlty above medium
level (+1 prestige), and I easily got majors in low countries & france THE
VERY FIRST time I played these scenarios, so I didn't even know what was
coming at me when I placed my units. In fact, I discovered something I'm
not sure everyone knows -- you don't have to take all objectives to win, I
got my major in the low countries apparently by destroying every enemy unit
on the board. The key in both scenarios, I think, was
overwhelming air superiority, bought in large part with those 6 fighters.
The only weakness in my machine is the heavy dependence on weather -- I was
lucky that I had 13 good days in france, but in the low countries for example
I really suffered in the last few turns when it was raining 3-4 days straight
& my airforce was grounded (good thing it wasn't raining at the start ...)
Anyway, there is a point to this besides bragging :) When I started I looked
very closely at the wepons & availabilty charts in the FAQ & I planned my
purchases around this. Buying Ia's in Poland/Warsaw allowed me to not only
build a good airforce for Warsaw/Norway & on -- better than if I'd bought
Panzer II of III, because they would have cost more than 100 points more
apiece -- but it also left me the points & made the choice obvious to go
with all PzIVd's from Norway on, which maybe would have been harder to justify
& pay for if I had II's and III's. And think these two factors -- all good
quality tanks & a formidable airforce -- are what in turn made France & the
Benelux so easy for me.
Anyway, I hope this prompts some good discussion. Now that I am poised to
attempt my invasion of Britain, with the fw fighters now available I have a
big dilemma about whether to upgrade or not. I may have built too large a
fighter force too early, because I don't think I can justify taking up any
more core slots with fighters ... it's kind of exciting, actually, because it
is the first time I'm playing this scenario I have no idea what's waiting for
me across the channel, let alone how I should prepare to face it -- who knows,
maybe more than 6 fighters would be a good investment???
Mark
Mark Holoboski
> but there is (increases with each scenario). It also makes sense so the
> better-equipped unit gets all the experience of the old unit, which may
> not survive for long in, for example, Panzer II's on the Eastern Front
> (just try sending them, or almost anything before a Tiger, one on one
> against the KV-1's in Stalingrad).
> --
My tank upgrade is originals -> Pz IIIG -> Pz IIIJ -> tigerI
The IIIJ's can handle any 41 or 42 soviet tank with a little
help from the occasional level bomber. Skipping IV's altogether
is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
mark
Mike Klarman
IIIG's going into the Low Countries. I like to be able to take on the
heavy Allied tanks without getting completely slaughtered (Have you ever
played France as a scenario? I played an email game as the Allies and
concluded that with all the prestige given to the Allies, they should
not ever lose b/c the Germans start with no good anitank tanks).
Anyway, as for Sealion, I like to upgrade my 2 or 3 best fighters to
FW190a's because they are unstoppable and have high fuel capacity (the
Germans lost in the London Blitz because their 109's didn't have enough
fuel to make it to London and back and still allow time to really
protect the bombers). And I usually have 5 fighters coming out of the
Low countries and don't add another one until Moscow 41 (I have more
pressing concerns than the Red Air Force).
David W Maddocks
>Mark
Definately upgrade to the fw fighters. They double your range, are
much harder to kill and have a good counterpunch. I know it costs but
its worth it. I also upgraded my stukka's from b to d because of
increased range and ability to pound.
David W. Maddocks
dav...@earthlink.net
Blackbeard
> snip - ((upgrading stratgey))
>.. I bought only Ia panzers (cost 12) in Poland & Warsaw, they got
>severely mauled but, taking advantage of elite replacements betwen scenarios
>they'd built up maybe a star of experience apiece. The prestige I did not
>spend by buying better tanks I hoarded to
>1) buy 2 fighters & a stuka at the start of Warsaw,
> 2) upgrading my two most experienced infantry to bridge engineers
Agreed
> 3) upgrading every tank unit I had to PzIVd at the start of
>Norway (the first time they were available)
Better to upgrade the tanks more slowly - they aren't all that useful in
Norway, and the Low countries are a complete walkover. Use the cheap
tanks to get experience through to the end of lowC, then overstrength
them when you are idling away the last 10 turns or so.
> *AND* then buying three more fighters, 1 or 2 stukas, and a level bomber
>during the scenario, almost all in the first turn.
Commiting you to a heavy airwing. Probably the strongest choice.
>... low countries and in france - I got majors in both battles, with time to
>spare -- which, by the way, I always use to take secondary objectives in order
>to build up more experience & prestige.
This is very important - you should expect to take ALL cities (you gain
prestige for each one), and kill all units (possibly except for one - if
you kill all units the scenario ends immediately, which means you lose
the chance to gain prestige for the cities you didn't take). Very
annoying.
Taking the major in France needs a ruthless blitzkrieg, so you might
miss out on a few minor objectives. Its worth it.
> Now I'm poised to invade Britain in '40, with about 9 panzerIVd,
> 3-4 bridge eng/pioneer, a couple more Wehr inf, 2 artillery (tht may
> have been a mistake), 1 Ju88a, 6 b109 fighters, and 3-4 stukas
Probably too many tanks and not enough bombers, but it won't hurt you
much - its still a good core.
> plus over 3000 prestige to start (or maybe less -- still ahven't
>decided on "buying" the italian navy).
The Italian navy isn't really that valuable - you are low on prestige
and the FW-190 upgrades are due :), and are more valuable.
> In fact, I discovered something I'm not sure everyone knows -- you don't have
> to take all objectives to win, I got my major in the low countries apparently by
> destroying every enemy unit on the board.
This is ture, but aim to take all the cities anyway, or you will miss
out on prestige. Kill all but one enemy unit (keep one alive, if
necessary, while you take the cities).
> The key in both scenarios, I think, was overwhelming air superiority...
>The only weakness in my machine is the heavy dependence on weather -- I was
>lucky that I had 13 good days in france, but in the low countries for example
>I really suffered in the last few turns when it was raining 3-4 days straight
>& my airforce was grounded (good thing it wasn't raining at the start ...)
Happened to me too - luckily, the scenario was (all but) over before it
started raining (cloud/rain for about 8 days though - dismal).
This can be a problem on the Eastern front - the 'late' Moscow missions
have awful weather: if you are not careful, you can miss the major
whilst your units are bogged down in snow heading for Moscow.
> Buying Ia's in Poland/Warsaw allowed me to not only
>build a good airforce for Warsaw/Norway & on -- better than if I'd bought
>Panzer II of III, because they would have cost more than 100 points more
>apiece -- but it also left me the points & made the choice obvious to go
>with all PzIVd's from Norway on,
I rate this as an error -if you had known what awaited you in Norway and
low countries, would you have done this?
> And think these two factors -- all good quality tanks & a formidable airforce
>-- are what in turn made France & the Benelux so easy for me.
Agreed for France only - you need Robust tanks for the Blitzkrieg on the
southern cities. Benelux is easy with almost any core. When I did the
'39 campaign, I upgraded my tanks to IVd spec for France.
>Anyway, I hope this prompts some good discussion. Now that I am poised to
>attempt my invasion of Britain, with the fw fighters now available I have a
>big dilemma about whether to upgrade or not.
Yes, at least for the 3-4 most experienced fighters. The UK airforce has
teeth, and could trouble the 109s. 3-4 Fw190s can dispose of the
troublesome fighters, the balance of your fighters can pick on easier
targets.
> I may have built too large a fighter force too early, because I don't think I can
> justify taking up any more core slots with fighters ... it's kind of exciting, actually,
> because it is the first time I'm playing this scenario I have no idea what's waiting for
>me across the channel, let alone how I should prepare to face it -- who knows,
>maybe more than 6 fighters would be a good investment???
Not telling ;) I don't think you will need more fighters for a while,
though. And its IS worth buying fighters early - they are very
dependant on experience.
Its worth taking a minor victory in the UK, then doing the eastern front
(take early moscow and kill the eastern front). You then get the western
front again, and re-do the UK in '43. This one is easier still - you
have real tanks by then. Kill the UK in '43, and you take a more
experienced core to the US.
Incidentally, the 39 campaign gets easier on higher difficulty levels
(well, from giving the AI more prestige, anyway) - you get more
experience/prestige per scenario, which gets you a killer core all the
faster.
Upgrade ideas:
Tanks:
Buy pz1as, gain experience/overstrength, then upgrade them (Pz IV,
then Tiger-1, then Panther or Tiger-2 {a mix of the latter})
Ftrs:
Buy 109s, upgrade to Fw190as, then Fw190ds (if applicable), then jets.
Tac Bombers:
Ju87b upgrade to Ju87d
Get 1 or 2 Me110cs as spotters, upgrade to the 210s whan available.
Hvy Bombers:
Buy Ju88, upgrade to the He177
Infantry:
Convert to Bridging engineers.
Artillery:
If you want arty, take the towed stuff (the good 3-hex units whose name
I have forgotten). Doesn't matter much, though!
Ståle Sannerud
>Now I'm poised to invade Britain in
>'40, with about 9 panzerIVd, 3-4 bridge eng/pioneer, a couple more Wehr inf,
>2 artillery (tht may have been a mistake), 1 Ju88a, 6 b109 fighters, and 3-4
>stukas, plus over 3000 prestige to start (or maybe less -- still ahven't
>decided on "buying" the italian navy).
Heh, heh, heh ... just wait until you try to invade Russia with that
force - rain, mud, rain, mud, snow....
One word of advice: The Panzers aren't _necessarily_ better the higher
their mark number. The IV is definitely inferior to the III-G in a
tank vs tank fight - they are quite good against infantry, but quite
vulnerable to the better Allied tanks. Of course, you would probably
Stuke the hell out of the enemy tanks long before that, but then we
are back to the weather...
Staale Sannerud
Ståle Sannerud
>My tank upgrade is originals -> Pz IIIG -> Pz IIIJ -> tigerI
>The IIIJ's can handle any 41 or 42 soviet tank with a little
>help from the occasional level bomber. Skipping IV's altogether
>is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
>mark
The IVs are very useful against infantry and other soft targets.
Keeping a couple around really isn't such a bad idea.
Staale Sannerud
James (Jim) Broadus
> cost. It appears to cost you 4/5 of the price of a new unit to
> upgrade. So instead of upgrading wouldn,t it make sense to just
> purchase another unit keeping the one you have as well?
>
posts have said about the unit limits and keeping experience
is quite true. I would also add that better equipment for
experienced units increases your hitting power. One 15 strength
Tiger can do a lot more damage than 5 10 strength PZII's :)
jbroadus
Collis Jeppesen
>>
>>Anyway, I hope this prompts some good discussion. Now that I am my
>>poised to attempt invasion of Britain, with the fw fighters now
>>available I have a big dilemma about whether to upgrade or not. I
may
>>have built too large a fighter force too early, because I don't think
>>I can justify taking up any more core slots with fighters.
Are you upgrading your existing fighters or just buying better units?
I
ask because you mention taking more core slots with fighters as a
reason
not to upgrade. Just upgrade the existing units at reduced cost and
you
won't be taking any new core slots.
Ståle Sannerud
>Commiting you to a heavy airwing. Probably the strongest choice.
It's a matter of playing style, really. In order to grind down strong
enemy fortifications, you will need either a lot of planes, or a lot
of artillery. Either option is valid, and each has its drawbacks.
Planes will leave you at the mercy of the weather, something that can
be deadly on the Eastern Front. Artillery , on the other hand, is
independent of the weather, but will need to be protected from enemy
armour and especially aircraft. They do provide the adjacent ground
units with powerful defensive fire support, and you won't believe what
a battery of 3-4 150 mm sFH will do to an enemy until you've seen it.
Get towed artillery if you decide to get any.
>Happened to me too - luckily, the scenario was (all but) over before it
>started raining (cloud/rain for about 8 days though - dismal).
>This can be a problem on the Eastern front - the 'late' Moscow missions
>have awful weather: if you are not careful, you can miss the major
>whilst your units are bogged down in snow heading for Moscow.
That's the problem with planes..-
>>Anyway, I hope this prompts some good discussion. Now that I am poised to
>>attempt my invasion of Britain, with the fw fighters now available I have a
>>big dilemma about whether to upgrade or not.
Basically, if you convert a fighter to the 190A you can more or less
stick to it for the rest of the war. Upgrades to later models are nice
to have, but not desperately necessary.
>Not telling ;) I don't think you will need more fighters for a while,
>though. And its IS worth buying fighters early - they are very
>dependant on experience.
Yep. A five-star FW can fight and survive where a green Me262 will be
blown out of the sky.
>Tanks:
>Buy pz1as, gain experience/overstrength, then upgrade them (Pz IV,
>then Tiger-1, then Panther or Tiger-2 {a mix of the latter})
Again, the III is good against tanks, but playing style comes into
play here - Stukas can to some degree replace them if the weather is
good.
>Infantry:
>Convert to Bridging engineers.
The trade-off is that this will limit their movement - ordinary W39
infantry has the advantage of that 3-hex movement. Driving around the
Russian countryside in halftracks isn't always a good idea!
>Artillery:
>If you want arty, take the towed stuff (the good 3-hex units whose name
>I have forgotten). Doesn't matter much, though!
sFH 15. I usually have 5-6 artillery in my core, at the expense of a
few planes and tanks. Massed artillery can be a killer, but it's a
matter of style, really.
Staale Sannerud
Mark Manville
Collis Jeppesen <col...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Anyway, I hope this prompts some good discussion. Now that I am my
>>>poised to attempt invasion of Britain, with the fw fighters now
>>>available I have a big dilemma about whether to upgrade or not. I
>may
>>>have built too large a fighter force too early, because I don't think
>
>Are you upgrading your existing fighters or just buying better units?
>not to upgrade. Just upgrade the existing units at reduced cost and
>you won't be taking any new core slots.
Yeah, sorry, I guess I was unclear there. What I meant was that if I did
buy fw190a I could only really do it as an upgrade, I figured, because I
already had six fighter in my core, and didn't think I wanted to add a 7th.
The rest of my post was on the topic of how important the upgrade strategy
is, and that you should think about your upgrade choices carefully & only
spend prestige on equipment that is really noticably better. Because
fighters are so expensive, and the bf109 isn't that bad, I wasn't sure if
it was worth it, so I split the decision - I upgraded three and left three
as is (sorry, I couldn't wait long enough to get advice here :) maybe it's
better (funner) that I learned for myself anyway). In hindsight I regret
that I didn't upgrade all six then, looking at the availabiltiy dates I
wouldn't see another upgrade for fighters for quite a while (my whole reason-
ing was based on the idea that I would be upgrading again soon anyway, maybe
I could "tough it out" until the next latest & greatest came along, as my
original post did by suggesting sticking with crappy tanks until the IVd).
As it turns out I upgraded the rest of the 109e (two of them; I got the other
mauled pretty early in Britain when I got too agressive due to the 15 turn
limit & flew too close to london & two AA) in Barbarossa, plus all five of
my stuka 87b to 87d right away. Unfortunately this meant I blew well over
2000 prestige at the start of Barbarossa, and by the end I didn't even have
enough to make reinforcements -- oops. I'll find the balance yet.
Anyway it all came out OK, I crushed the British in 9-10 turns & then spent
the last 2-3 turns picking off other cities to accumulate prestige before
moving into the last victory hex, leaving only part of manchester, liverpool
airfield, and that city in NW wales untaken. I then went on to Barbarossa,
where my airforce had a cakewalk -- by then I'd relied so much on air units
that they were by far the most experienced units in my core, and with four
of 6 stukas strength 13-15 I stomped the russian armor with those alone (good
thing, since my tank core was all IVd). So now after a major there, I'm
into kiev (not enough prestige left to risk early moscow -- oops), although
unfortunately not with as much overstrength as I could have due to prestige
shortage. My only problem will be if I got a long stretch of rain, without
my air force I'll probably be toast.
Thanks to all for advice. Again, sorry I couldn't wait long enough to use
it :) I wish I'd played the game at hard level the first time through, this
is way to easy (by kiev I'd wiped out something like 170 infantry & 30 air,
and who knows how many dozen tanks, plus battleships AA, AT, etc., while
losing only 3 inf and 2 air respectively, plus about 5 tanks). I'm still try-
ing to get that upgrade strategy down though, in britain I didn't upgrade
enough, while in Barbarossa I upgraded too much ...
Mark
Mark Manville
>manville@.cs.wisc.edu (Mark Manville) wrote:
>>Now I'm poised to invade Britain in
>>'40, with about 9 panzerIVd, 3-4 bridge eng/pioneer, a couple more Wehr inf,
>>2 artillery (tht may have been a mistake), 1 Ju88a, 6 b109 fighters, and 3-4
>>stukas, plus over 3000 prestige to start (or maybe less -- still ahven't
>>decided on "buying" the italian navy).
>
>force - rain, mud, rain, mud, snow....
Yeah, as I wrote 3-4 straight turns of rain in the low countries could've
really messed me up had they not come towards the end of my offensive.
Fortunately I was blessed by only two turns of rain each in both Britain
& Barbarossa, so I got majors easily. I'm still trying to decide whether
this is because I should have played at hard level, or if I've just gotten
extremely lucky with the weather given my force composition. But Norway
weather was not pretty (lotsa mud) and I still did ok there.
Now I'm on to Kiev or early Moscow. We'll see if your prediction comes true.
I was going to do KIev but I'm trying to decide whether I should do early
Moscow instead and count on luck with the weather yet again (and try to do
without IIIJ's, since I won't have the prestige to upgrade ...)
>One word of advice: The Panzers aren't _necessarily_ better the higher
>their mark number. The IV is definitely inferior to the III-G in a
>tank vs tank fight - they are quite good against infantry, but quite
>vulnerable to the better Allied tanks. Of course, you would probably
>Stuke the hell out of the enemy tanks long before that, but then we
>are back to the weather...
Yes, I don't plan to buy any more IVds now that IIIJ are available. But
going back to the topic of the post, I think it good strategy to "tough it
out" with just IVd, even for anti-tank, until the IIIJ is available (and
skip the extra cost of the IIIg upgrade altogether. The need to upgrade
some IVd to IIIj is the reason I'm thinking of going to Kiev instead of
Moscow, to save the prestige to do that. I only have one inexperienced IIIj,
bought in the middle of Barbarossa).
Mark
Mark Manville
>>Norway (the first time they were available)
>
>Better to upgrade the tanks more slowly - they aren't all that useful in
>Norway, and the Low countries are a complete walkover. Use the cheap
>tanks to get experience through to the end of lowC, then overstrength
>them when you are idling away the last 10 turns or so.
Yes, as it turns out I could have done that, I didn't realize that the
low countries would be that easy. But if I was going to upgrade to IVd
in France anyway (as you suggest later), why not do it right away in
Norway?
>>... low countries and in france - got majors in both battles, with time to
>>spare -- which I always use to take secondary objectives in order
>>to build up more experience & prestige.
>
>This is very important - you should expect to take ALL cities (you gain
>prestige for each one), and kill all units (possibly except for one - if
>you kill all units the scenario ends immediately, which means you lose
>the chance to gain prestige for the cities you didn't take). Very
>annoying.
>
>Taking the major in France needs a ruthless blitzkrieg, so you might
>miss out on a few minor objectives. Its worth it.
Actually I got all the objectives in France, it was Britain that I couldn't
totally clean out in just 12 turns. At the end there were only two British
units, but I left about five prestige hexes untaken just because of time
(though the paratroopers made it easier to grab most of the northern stuff -
if i play it again I'll know to free them up for this snatch duty earlier.
>> Now I'm poised to invade Britain in '40, with about 9 panzerIVd,
>> 3-4 bridge eng/pioneer, a couple more Wehr inf, 2 artillery (tht may
>> have been a mistake), 1 Ju88a, 6 b109 fighters, and 3-4 stukas
>
>Probably too many tanks and not enough bombers, but it won't hurt you
>much - its still a good core.
Yes, exactly, I added two more stukas (though I kinda kicked myself when I
saw that 87d's became available for Barbarossa, I might have waited if I'd
realized). The British fighters were formidable, but not as bad as I'd
expected & groomed my core for.
>The Italian navy isn't really that valuable - you are low on prestige
>and the FW-190 upgrades are due :), and are more valuable.
3000 was low on prestige? Really? Well, I guess that makes sense, given
that I was coming up dry by the end of Barbarossa -- I thought I'd upgraded
too much but maybe not (I was all fw190a, stuka 87d, PzIVd, bridge/pioner (+1
paratroop, a 18 arty & a nebelwerfer at the start of Barb.)
But how on earth do you get much more prestige than that? I'd taken nearly
every city & killed nearly every enemy unit in every battle up to that point.
I ended up taking the Italians - maybe a mistake, I cleaned out the Allied
Navy without losing much at all (some destroyers & subs & maybe a cruiser
or two, no battleships below 7 at the end). Though it was nice to provide
the shore bombardment support on the south & east coasts, I hardly needed to
fight with ground units for these prestige hexes. Again, though, like the
fighters I was basing my conclusions on history & jsut presumed the british
naval would be more dominant than it turned out to be.
By the way, just WHAT are those s-boats good for anyway, besides suicide
spotting runs and blocking enemy naval movement? These were the only uses
I could find for them.
>> ... made the choice obvious to go with all PzIVd from Norway on,
>I rate this as an error ...
<snip>
> ... I upgraded my tanks to IVd spec for France.
Again almost everything you say makes a lot of sense now that I've been
through Barbarossa & SeaLion-plus, except this. Why wait to get the same
equipment that you could have gotten at the same price two sceanrios ago?
>Incidentally, the 39 campaign gets easier on higher difficulty levels
>(well, from giving the AI more prestige, anyway) - you get more
>experience/prestige per scenario, which gets you a killer core all the
>faster.
Hmmm, could that be why I'm finding the going easier than I expected for the
first time through -- that I'm playing on medium, with an extra +1 prestige
bonus? I thought this would make it harder for me, not easier -- but what
you say makes snese. The turkey shoots my air gets on these hoards on ground
units later in the scenario give me the experience & prestige to overstrength
everything & make it easier to establish early air superiority in the next
scenario, probably a vicious circle ...
>Upgrade ideas:
<snip>
Yes, everything you write makes sense (so far), except that it seems like
PzIIIg might be useful in the east, and I don't know offhand what the He177
is. I upgraded the arty to a nebelwerfer at the start of Barb., I was under
the impression that it could move and then shoot in the same turn. Sigh.
I wanted something that could quickly knock AA units, which I *hate*, down
to size for my panzers. My other arty is still an 18 (best 3 hex on at this
time), which I plan to keep that way.
I will take your advice under advisement. Thanks!
Mark
Mark Manville
Uh, duh, no I didn't. My apologies for following up my own post, but I
don't know what came over me to write the above. I got deep into france by
turn 13, beyond the victory hexes by a couple turns but by no means into all
the prestige (airfield and city) hexes. Maybe if I'd managed my fuel better
somehow ... everything was running on fumes already by turn 10 or 11 ...
Mark Manville
Mark Holoboski <holo...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>Skipping IV's altogether
>is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
The IVd actually is available in Norway, well before the IIIj even.
Mark
Paul Schmidt
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96032...@ucs.orst.edu>,
: Mark Holoboski <holo...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
: >Skipping IV's altogether
: >is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
I wouldn't call 8/42 just around the corner from 9/39.
: The IVd actually is available in Norway, well before the IIIj even.
Yep, the IVd is available early and is a great infantry mauler. As I
recall from my Panzer General days the best mix to have before Tigers and
Panthers was 50/50 of PzIVs and PzIIIs.
: Mark
Hi Mark. Imagine finding you here. I'll bet PzG looks great on that
17" Iiyama eh? :)
--
Paul Schmidt
ku...@netcom.com
Blackbeard
>>Commiting you to a heavy airwing. Probably the strongest choice.
>It's a matter of playing style, really. In order to grind down strong
>enemy fortifications, you will need either a lot of planes, or a lot
>of artillery. Either option is valid, and each has its drawbacks.
(explanation snipped)
Very true - I should have said I played the campaign game with a heavy
air wing (hence no need for artillery, or for tanks capable of striking
at full-strength enemy tanks).
I still believe the air wing is the stronger force, except possibly in
poor weather scenarios. But, either approach should allow you to win
any of the scenarios...
>>Tanks:
>>Buy pz1as, gain experience/overstrength, then upgrade them (Pz IV,
>>then Tiger-1, then Panther or Tiger-2 {a mix of the latter})
>Again, the III is good against tanks,
You mean not completely hopeless?
> but playing style comes into play here - Stukas can to some degree
> replace them if the weather is good.
Oops, should have said my upgrade path is *dependant* on having a good
air wing to kill enemy tanks for me! (until the real tanks arrive).
>>Infantry:
>>Convert to Bridging engineers.
>The trade-off is that this will limit their movement - ordinary W39
>infantry has the advantage of that 3-hex movement. Driving around the
>Russian countryside in halftracks isn't always a good idea!
Hmm, but The ordinary infantry is of such limited use (no good in the
open, no good vs entrenched targets) that the point is rather moot.
Half-tracked units DO need screening though - rather a pain if the stuff
only moves 2 hexes :(
Tony.
Mark Holoboski
On 25 Mar 1996, Mark Manville wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96032...@ucs.orst.edu>,
> Mark Holoboski <holo...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
> >Skipping IV's altogether
> >is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
>
> The IVd actually is available in Norway, well before the IIIj even.
>
> Mark
Yeah, I know, but I go for IIIG initiative over IVd firepower
for my vets. IVd's are my choice for newbies since they can
rapidly acquire experience by beating on infantry and artillery.
Same goes for IIIJ's. They go to vets since they come out early
enough to get my money's worth out of them and newbies get IVf2's
when available.
Then everybody gets Tigers ASAP. I usually go into '44 with
9 tigers (3 battlegroups of 3) which will evolve into 6 pantherG's
and 3 tigerII's. Again, 3 battlegroups.
Mark
Mark Holoboski
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Paul Schmidt wrote:
> Mark Manville (manville@.cs.wisc.edu) wrote:
> : In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96032...@ucs.orst.edu>,
> : Mark Holoboski <holo...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
> : >Skipping IV's altogether
> : >is a good idea considering tigers are just around the corner.
>
> I wouldn't call 8/42 just around the corner from 9/39.
>
I meant skipping IVd's in the upgrade path, not in regard to
new purchases. You can actually save alot of prestige doing that.
originals to IIIG (2/40) to IIIJ (7/41) to tiger1 (8/42).
Cadets get the IV's to get their feet wet.
Mark
Mark Manville
>Hi Mark. Imagine finding you here. I'll bet PzG looks great on that
>17" Iiyama eh? :)
*** YES!!!!!! ***
Thanks a lot Paul! Here I'd convinced everyone over in video that I blew that
wad on this gorgeous monitor for X-windows & OS/2 desktop room, and now you've
bared to the world the naked truth that all I really care about is watching
myself crush ruskies in DOS Panavision :)
Mark
Mark Manville
Mark Holoboski <holo...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>I meant skipping IVd's in the upgrade path, not in regard to
>new purchases. You can actually save alot of prestige doing that.
>originals to IIIG (2/40) to IIIJ (7/41) to tiger1 (8/42).
>Cadets get the IV's to get their feet wet.
Sorry, Mark, the point is certainly arguable but I still don't see
it. Actually it costs less prestige to go originals to IVd to IIIj
than to go through IIIg instead. Additionally, 1) you need anti-inf
tanks more in the west, and thte IIIj will arrive shortly after
starting the east, when you need to start worrying about the Russian
armor, 2) it's even cheaper when you figure that you won't want
to upgrade all your IVd to IIIj anyway, the IVd is still better anti-
infantry. At least this seems reasonable to me.
Mark
Thomas Palm
> sFH 15. I usually have 5-6 artillery in my core, at the expense of a
> few planes and tanks. Massed artillery can be a killer, but it's a
> matter of style, really.
Also use artillery in halftracks to charge wounded infantry etc whenever
possible. Not very realistic, but it's the only way of making them get
experience. A strength 13 or 14 arillery is a killer all by itself.
(Since you have plenty of time, the Low Countires is a good scenario
for giving them this battle practice.)
Bill Haering
war. The bad news is that you uncovered one of the flaws of PG. Namely
that usually 1939 campaign games turn into routs. Eventually this become
boring.
But I don't want to spoil your first experience for you. You will be
glad to have what ever FW190 you can get in Sealion 40. There extended
range will be a big help until you get an airfield in England. Also they
will be your best planes for several years so there no need to worry
about early obsolescence.
There has been much discussion about the pro and cons of the various
campaigns at the tankers online discussion page.
http://www.annurev.org/scripts/boards/tanker/genboard/genboard.htm
Under the PG section under the ground warfare section there is an
extensive discussion (downloaded from this newsgroup) when the game was
new.
http://www.webspace.com/~tanker/
You are pretty well situated till bad weather hits. This will occur in
Russia, particularly in Moscow (I'm not sure about early moscow, I
haven't played it). Enjoy yourself, and expect that soon you will be
looking for ways to make the situation more challenging.
Bill